Way too loud....

[KF650SB1000]

Originally Posted by guntheria

The other night after an amazing act (they've played bonaroo etc) I gave the guys pizza, beer, etc. and kindly asked them to instruct me. WHY DO YOU PLAY SO FRIGGIN LOUD????

They told me about stage volume vs audience volume. "I can't here me friggin guitar mate!" I've been told I need to mic all their amps, get a bohemiath set of monitors and blow the sound back at them.

Here's my question (finally, right?): Could the rock bands need better sound/engineering/equipment or are they blowing smoke and really want to play loud just so they can feel like Ozzy?

p.s. I've got a real stage with nice jbl pa's, monitors, amps, snakes, lights, blah$$$ blah$$$.

Is each monitor on its own mix...

What are the specs of the monitor system?

Whats the details of the room? Size, Location of Stage....
Any acoustic treatment around the room?

Do you have a compatent engineer mixing the rig and monitors?

[shooto]

we play at 4 and people say it's loud

[RoadRanger]

Originally Posted by shooto

we play at 4 and people say it's loud

Maybe try 3?

[Shaster]

I've played at quite a few places where volume is a big concern. Many of them have a soundtech that is given the job of the "volume police". He/she informs the bands of the club's volume limitations, suggests ways for the musicians to limit their volume, AND informs them in no uncertain terms what will happen if the stage volume gets too loud (usually termination, banned from club....)

In many clubs now, they have baffles that sit right in front of the guitar cabs. This can really help. I personally travel with my own pexiglass baffle that sits in front of my Blues Jr. (15 watts) which is still too loud for many of the places I play. Another trick is to point all guitar cabs across the stage, if the guitarists don't like baffles.

As noted elsewhere in this thread I have seen plexiglass surrounding the drums (not a great option but...).

Lots of ways to limit volume, but being assertive, with consequences to back it up, is where you might start.

Don't give up on live music, there are many musicians out there who will (and want to) play at a reasonable volume. Seek and ye shall find.

[Scodiddly]

A lot of it is education to the bands... have a dB meter, and know how to use it and explain why it's too #**<&#@<# loud during soundcheck. Back when I did bar sound I had a pretty good result by just talking to the band, explaining why they were too loud and how to fix it. Bands are generally pretty receptive to "if you get too loud, you'll sound shitty and here's why" talks, especially if you make it clear that you respect their sound but have good reason for not wanting them to turn up. The "I know, but I've gotten a lot of complaints from the customers about TOO LOUD" approach helps.

One other wise old sound dude had a pretty good approach - have the means available to tilt amps back to point up at the player's head... and don't ask, just do. Go up there and tilt stuff back, have an explanation ready but don't ask permission.

[Dark Ice]

Good thread!
A bar not too far away from he has an interesting solution to this very problem. They make a rule that all bands use the house kit, and the house amps (you can change the head for your own if you really want), and the amps are wired into attenuators which are located at the sound desk.

Its a great idea but it only works because of a very good understanding of the bands/music and patronage, a good understanding of the gear involved, and sufficient investment to make it work well.

Nobody complains about the backline because theres a selection of a HiWatt, a Marshall and an ENGL (I forget the models, I think its a powerball and a DSL2000), ampeg fridge, the kits something on the same level as a pearl masters, and noone complains about not being able to hear themselves because the PA and mons are Funktion one, fed from an 01V and run by a guy with a good rep locally.

The result is really ace, I love going there whenever I can and the place enjoys a spectacular reputation locally.
http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums...rings-bar.html

Steve.

[JrMaFia]

If you can't hear urself you need an amp that goes to 11 so this way if the guy is playing at 10 you can play 1 higher at eleven

[lonotes]

Originally Posted by RoadRanger

Maybe try 3?

3 is too early. The early-bird buffet crowd is in full swing.

[BigMac5]

Loud is a relative term. What maybe loud to me, may not be loud to another person and vice versa. I've been told that it was too loud, and not loud enough by different people at the same gig with the same volume.

That's why I take a SPL meter now, I aim for 100-105 dba slow at FOH.

[stevesherbert]

i agree that bands often use excessive amounts of volume onstage and this is a problem. however, sometimes i think the blame lies partly with the club and/or the soundguy.

bar owners: if you book a metal band, chances are the band's going to have loud ass guitar amps. if your customers don't like it, then stop booking metal bands. another idea is to provide a (decent) backline with attenuators or plexi glass, like someone mentioned before. customers standing (or god forbid, sitting) right next to the stage or mains aren't going to be able to carry a conversation over the band no matter how quiet the guitar amps are. ask them to sit somewhere else in your bar.

sound guys: bands understand that mixing is tougher when the amps onstage are blasting into the club. but if the guitarists can't hear themselves properly, then no matter how great your mix is, the music will suck. if you want the guys to turn down their amps, then you'd better be prepared to give them a kick ass LOUD monitor mix that they can hear over the drums. and don't act all douchebaggy when the guys onstage ask for adjustments to their monitors. if you take on the responsibility, then you better have good monitors and the ability/patience to tweak each person's mix. playing in your club is probably not the best situation for the band, and understandably the band is probably not your favorite thing to mix. work together with the band to make the best show (i.e. mix, energy, vibe) possible.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by herbie d

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have trouble with bleed on my vocal mic when I do this. My vocal mic is not far from my ear level as well. I like my amp on the floor in front of me next to my stage monitor, or on the side of the stage.

An indication that the volume is too high...

[Unalaska]

Many tube amps use a linear pot for volume. Playing at 2 is only a little quieter than at 6, so when I hear a guitarist complain about being on 2 I ask if they've ever turned it up, many say no.

[Craigv]

Originally Posted by Unalaska

Many tube amps use a linear pot for volume. Playing at 2 is only a little quieter than at 6, so when I hear a guitarist complain about being on 2 I ask if they've ever turned it up, many say no.

This is a concept that many of the guitarists (and bassists) I've spoken with don't seem to understand. "Dude, it' on, like, ONE, and it's blasting! I've got like NINE more to go! Dude!!!!"

Mention log taper, and you get that look Mark best described as how cattle look at you. Then, "well I don't know about that, but this thing is blasting and it's only using like 10% of its power!"

[Marc G]

Amp arangement on stage could help.... when my band plays smaller venues once there is a PA to go through we will set our amps up like side fills so they aren't shooting out into the crowd and let the engineer mix us through the PA. That being said... I still might get complaints that my Tiny Terror is too loud! LOL and the other 2 guitarist in the band have a Mesa Mark IV and a Mesa Mark III...lol

[Bryan316]

If you have a combo amp, either elevate it up, or angle it at your head. My lead guitarist has this first stand and cannot be happier. There's plenty of affordable solutions here, with the last one being a TWELVE DOLLAR solution. There's no excuse for you to not afford this.











And if you MUST have a 412 cabinet because of the tonality of a big sealed-back cabinet as opposed to an open-back combo, then get a slant-top cabinet. It was the dumbest idea ever, to produce a speaker cabinet with all four speakers aimed straight forward instead of aimed at your head. There's plenty of great cabinets with the top two speakers tilted back, so you can get better dispersion and get your sound aimed at your head instead of your kneecaps. Invest in proper gear, invest in GOOD gear, and you'll be far happier with your sound and can concentrate on playing, instead of tweaking and fixing and moving and adjusting.

[lonotes]

Originally Posted by Bryan316

If you have a combo amp, either elevate it up, or angle it at your head. My lead guitarist has this first stand and cannot be happier. There's plenty of affordable solutions here, with the last one being a TWELVE DOLLAR solution. There's no excuse for you to not afford this.

One nice feature of this particular stand is that you can mount a gooseneck or boom to the top of it, and eliminate the need for a separate mic stand. Very handy on a cramped stage.

[Bryan316]

Oh I didn't notice that before! SLICK!

*shops for goose neck*

*calls rhythm guitarist*

[twostone]

Here in my area most bar owner I've dealt with are right up front about volumes. They have no qualms about telling you if your to loud you can pack your shit up and hit the door and don't expect any pay. I just learn to ask them them after sound check what da ya think most will let me know your to fucking loud or it just right. Some places I've played at I can raise the roof off while other place will only let us play above a whisper. So I always let the owner have the final say so that way I always get a re-hire and so far I've been re-hired at every place I've ever gigged at. Now if I can just score the more up scale venues which ain't happen yet.

[lonotes]

Originally Posted by Bryan316

Oh I didn't notice that before! SLICK!

*shops for goose neck*

*calls rhythm guitarist*

I have a couple of those Genesis stands. I usually use a combination of this;

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/closeup/BoomMini--Main

and this;
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/closeup/BoomTele--Main

Although it's considerably cheaper, a gooseneck can be a little too flexible. The above combination gives as much flexibility in positioning the mic, but also allows you lock it down once you have the mic where you want it.

[WynnD]

The few times that an owner has asked my band to turn up has resulted in a degradation of sound quality. If it happens in the future, we'll say yes, but not really do anything. Can't remember the last time a place asked us to back off. One bar said nothing during the gig, but the manager when asked about it later, said the band was loud. (That band wasn't asked back and the group wanted to be added to the rotation. Stage volume 107+ DBc Which is loud to me.)