when new members TAKE OVER THE BAND ?

[iamjethro]

Man, speed typing is not my strength.

[tinker925]

[quote=whataracket;37240190]As a front person where I am the primary singer, I still like having another person who sings a quarter or even a third of the tunes. It makes it much easier to get through 3 and 4 set gigs because you can get a few breaks from the singing. QUOTE]

Ditto! Retaining the lyrics to 40 plus ( after a few Jack and Cokes) is a responsibility I like to share! Gives me and my voice a break and I can do sound checks!

[Goop Home]

Originally Posted by Austincowbell

best way to do it:

every time someone joins a band their role needs to be CLEARLY defined.

Absolutely! If you don't make it clear that they're joining a band that only does originals (for example), I guarantee that they will try to incorporate their favorite cover tunes even if they are totally incompatible with the band's current set of original material.

The new guy needs to know and believe in the band they are joining. If they have ulterior motives (i.e. see the band as a jumping off point to further themselves) look out, as this could waste months of time for everyone.

[rhat]

Originally Posted by Austincowbell

It's an original band not a variety band and judging by 99% of original bands in existence you're dead wrong. And don't say "well, I like multiple singers better" because that's your personal preference and it runs completely counter to the opinion of the record buying and ticket buying public.

Tell that to the eagles or the beatles,,,or any of the big country acts. it may just be my age,,, but multiple part vocals are a big part of what attracts my dollar when it comes to buying a CD and have always proven to be the thing that made bands I have been in more money. No hard fast rules ,, but vocals sell. more vocals sell easier. What percentage of that 99 percent really go anywhere?

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by rhat

it may just be my age

Dunno if it's your age. I mean
Mammas & Pappas, Three dog night, Sha Na Na , ABBA, Brothers Gibb, Oak Ridge Boys, Donnie and Marie, Human League, Thompson Twins, B-52s, Bananarama, Chumbawamba, TLC, En vogue, Menudo, New Kids on the Block, Spice Girls

appeal to different age groups and segments, but use a lot of ensemble vox


Percentages can be dicey, I mean it shows frequency of incidence not even correlation and correlation is not the same as causation (to assume so is superstition...I don't mean pejoratively, I mean in the skinner sense)

[Austincowbell]

Originally Posted by slight-return

Dunno if it's your age. I mean
Mammas & Pappas, Three dog night, Sha Na Na , ABBA, Brothers Gibb, Oak Ridge Boys, Donnie and Marie, Human League, Thompson Twins, B-52s, Bananarama, Chumbawamba, TLC, En vogue, Menudo, New Kids on the Block, Spice Girls

appeal to different age groups and segments, but use a lot of ensemble vox


Percentages can be dicey, I mean it shows frequency of incidence not even correlation and correlation is not the same as causation (to assume so is superstition...I don't mean pejoratively, I mean in the skinner sense)

you could have added in Roxette.... but my point was in looking at last year's top selling albums:
http://www.prefixmag.com/news/coldpl...ling-al/26149/
there is exactly ONE with multiple singers and that's Abba.

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by Austincowbell

you could have added in Roxette.... but my point was in looking at last year's top selling albums:
http://www.prefixmag.com/news/coldpl...ling-al/26149/
there is exactly ONE with multiple singers and that's Abba.

That's a data snapshot (and gathering methodology), not really a point.


We really have to be careful how we use data in support of points

I mean it's a very rarified snapshot ( a crapload of extremely successful musical acts aren't going to show up on that list for a...well a laundry list of reasons)
and we have to be REALLY REALLY REALLY careful what we infer from that
(like using raw positive frequency as correlation and assuming that's causative)


For instance U2 wasn't on that list - but I don't think we can validly saythat Irish bands* are unviable b/c there is a 0% showing on IFPI's top 50 of 2008

(*I dont think there were other Irish bands on there either)




I mean we could even use it as a counter example to
but the band identity needs to be clear and that means one singer, one lead guitarist, one bassist, and one drummer."

as it shows an act that made it into a top-100 albums with multiple singers (where the statement shows, "needs to...one singer").
In looking at the list, two of the albums are "various Artists" which even goes against the "strong identity" grain in a way.
and this was against thousands and thousands...and thousands of albums that did NOT make it

Hell, if we could show that <2% (and I don't know that we could) or so of the albums up for consideration feature ensemble vox, it would actually be a POSITIVE bump as the top 50 population would have a greater percentage of multi-vox acts than acts at large.
It's something I wouldn't put a lot of stock into that as a predictive bump for same laundry list of reasons.

It's just not good analytical practice

[TrickyBoy]

Originally Posted by slight-return

That's a data snapshot (and gathering methodology, not really a point.


We really have to be careful how we use data.

I mean it's a very rarified snapshot (I mean a crapload of extremely successful musical acts aren't going to show up on that list for a...well a laundry list of reasons)
and we have to be REALLY REALLY REALLY careful what we infer from that
(like raw positive frequency and correlation and if that's causative)


For instance U2 wasn't on that list - but I don't think we can say that Irish bands are unviable b/c there is a 0% showing on IFPI's top 50 of 2008




I mean we could even use it as a counter example to
but the band identity needs to be clear and that means one singer, one lead guitarist, one bassist, and one drummer."

as it shows an act that made it into a top-100 albums with multiple singers (where the statement shows, "needs to...one singer").
In looking at the list, two of the albums are "various Artists" which even goes against the "strong identity" grain in a way.
and this was against thousands and thousands...and thousands of albums that did NOT make it

Hell, if we could show that <2% (and I don't know that we could) or so of the albums up for consideration feature ensemble vox, it would actually be a POSITIVE bump as the top 50 population would have a greater percentage of multi-vox acts than acts at large.
It's something I wouldn't put a lot of stock into that as a predictive bump for same laundry list of reasons.

It's just not good analytical practice

Wow. How this thread has morphed. Interestingly enough, your example of U2 is another example of an amazingly successful band with only one singer. I think/hope we can all agree that saying you need one or multiple singers for a band to be successful is an argument as inane as saying you need one or multiple guitarists or that you need a keyboardist or don't need a keyboardist. The answer is that both work, both in an original and a cover band. It really depends on what you are doing.

Some of the best cover bands I've ever seen are up in the Northeast (Mr. Greengenes, Love Seed Mama Jump, The Nerds - youtube them all, they are great and do this for a living playing to huge crowds) all have one singer. I've also seen many with multiple examples of great multi-singer bands.

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by TrickyBoy

Wow. How this thread has morphed.

eh sorry, used to work in stats analysis so I thought I'd better weigh in on it.

It's an area that gets wayyyy misused.

Interestingly enough, your example of U2 is another example of an amazingly successful band with only one singer.

Yup and here's the fumky part - if we are using the 2008 top 50 as our benchmark , it would be a NULL or even a negative case! (they didn't show up on the top 50 so they would NOT show as successful given that metric)



I'll go with just "not definitive and universally applicable" (I hesitate to use "inane" myself - just a practices thing)

[wades_keys]

Originally Posted by slight-return

eh sorry, used to work in stats analysis

I can tell.

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by wades_keys

I can tell.

I had to learn the lesson

"Do not review the methodology of your girlfriend"

but it finally stuck and now we're married

[eh, sorry for the hijack -- now I'm proscratinating -- see ya in a few days]


(oh, one question - is the Toy Tiger totally and completely gone?)

[Austincowbell]

Originally Posted by slight-return

I had to learn the lesson

"Do not review the methodology of your girlfriend"

but it finally stuck and now we're married

[eh, sorry for the hijack -- now I'm proscratinating -- see ya in a few days]


(oh, one question - is the Toy Tiger totally and completely gone?)

and I used to run study after study and with trials including blinds and double blinds etc... I understand methodology and I understand controls but that data snapshot served to illustrate my point. If YOU feel like going back over the last 10 years and running studies controlling for every factor feel free.

here is another snapshot:
top grossing tours of ALL TIME. Every single tour is a band with one singer or a solo artist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._concert_tours

ESPECIALLY today where people are more likely to have someone send them a youtube clip of a band than hand them a CD the visual aspect of a band is important in terms of establishing the brand of that band. THE singer is essentially the most important part of that brand in almost every case. In thinking about ACL fest every band I saw had one lead singer.

[BlueStrat]

99% of all great lead singers started out as children drinking milk.

Wanna be a great singer? Drink milk!

[wades_keys]

Originally Posted by slight-return

(oh, one question - is the Toy Tiger totally and completely gone?)

It is a SuperThornton's (gas station) now.

The old seedy whore-tel is still there - it's changed names several times though.

[rhat]

Originally Posted by Austincowbell

and I used to run study after study and with trials including blinds and double blinds etc... I understand methodology and I understand controls but that data snapshot served to illustrate my point. If YOU feel like going back over the last 10 years and running studies controlling for every factor feel free.

here is another snapshot:
top grossing tours of ALL TIME. Every single tour is a band with one singer or a solo artist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._concert_tours

ESPECIALLY today where people are more likely to have someone send them a youtube clip of a band than hand them a CD the visual aspect of a band is important in terms of establishing the brand of that band. THE singer is essentially the most important part of that brand in almost every case. In thinking about ACL fest every band I saw had one lead singer.

I find it interesting that the top band is all old guys in their 60s. The brooks and dunn retirment tour should be a big gross tour too. Top notch harmony is what put brooks and dunn on the map.

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by Austincowbell

and I used to run study after study and with trials including blinds and double blinds etc...

That's experiemnt design, not analysis.
I mean in a way the two disciplines are on opposite end of the spectrum

experiement design is attempt to control the observation structure so that that

I understand methodology and I understand controls

Take another look then - we've got problems all over

from looking only at extreme outliers
to only positive case analysis
to interested selection of the data


I mean Bluestrat's milk analysis fits too with this kind of analysis

How was it put in "Apocalypse Now"


Do you think my methods are unsound?

I don't see...any method... at all, sir






but that data snapshot served to illustrate my point.

Now here's where your experience in double blinding can come in handy - you selected the data population, which is all outliers, and a convenient (inference) rather that truth-preserving approach specifically to support a point -
confirmation bias


If YOU feel like going back over the last 10 years and running studies controlling for every factor feel free.


you should prob know this from experiment design - that good methodology may be inconvenient doesn't validate bad methods

And there's a whole other option that people forget abt, esp if they are interested in the outcome itself (as opposed to the analysis) - "results inconclusive"

It's that thing about negation v opposition




here is another snapshot:
top grossing tours of ALL TIME. Every single tour is a band with one singer or a solo artist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._concert_tours


yup, it's another snapshot ( broader in time, but still rarefied, actually moreso and I do have some concerns about data gathering methods...even down to wiki as a citation class source) -- with those same problems
not only only in the data, but what we can get from it



THE singer is essentially the most important part of that brand in almost every case.
In thinking about ACL fest every band I saw had one lead singer.

That's just the restatement

As a researcher, you know how anecdotals can get.


I mean hey, don't get me wrong - I'm cool with the judgement calls
If you want ot run your operation with policy A - great
If Rhat wants to run his operation with Policy B - great
(and it may be that you aren't serving the same markets, which can be one of the issues with the analysis)


and all that's different than a definitive analysis

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by wades_keys

It is a SuperThornton's (gas station) now.

The old seedy whore-tel is still there - it's changed names several times though.

I suppose Seattle would get on my case if I could find the sign and put it in my yard

OK - kick me out, I'm sooo procrasting I've GOT to get an office action done and I really don't want to even look at it.


deep breath and --- go

[Desalines]

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Yes, that seems to be the norm now.

Just 30-40 years ago ( seems like an eternity, but the older you get the shorter is seems!) multiple lead vocalists in original bands were quite common. The Eagles, CSNY, Los Lobos, The Byrds, Cream, The Band, The Dead, Earth Wind and Fire, and so on.

Now, not so much. I often wonder why. I mean, one of the reasons I get bored with hearing any band, in a bar or at a concert, is listening to one guy sing all night. Even in my own band, I have the keyboard player sing a song or two in each set.

+1. Three singers in the band I'm in with the possibility of three part harmony depending on the song. Each singer takes the lead on various songs. Some we switch verses on. Variety, the spice of life.

[Christhee68]

I work in a club where we get some good regional acts. Two of the biggest are "The (singer's name) Band" type acts. Even though these guys are the "star" they step back and let the players sing lead on a few songs. It gives the star a break and he can hit the bar or chat up the ladies.

Two in particular just came out with new CD's and the first singles were sung by the bass player of each band.

Even for a band with such a distinctive singer as Journey had other guys sing lead at times.

On the other hand, I haven't listened to Dave Matthews in a while. Does his band even sing any harmonies?

[rhat]

Originally Posted by BlueStrat

Yes, that seems to be the norm now.

Just 30-40 years ago ( seems like an eternity, but the older you get the shorter is seems!) multiple lead vocalists in original bands were quite common. The Eagles, CSNY, Los Lobos, The Byrds, Cream, The Band, The Dead, Earth Wind and Fire, and so on.

Now, not so much. I often wonder why. I mean, one of the reasons I get bored with hearing any band, in a bar or at a concert, is listening to one guy sing all night. Even in my own band, I have the keyboard player sing a song or two in each set.

There is a shortage of singers. Its hard to get one person who can sing, let alone two more that can sing and play an instrument. I talked about this with an old bandmate who did the HS band director thing. She said, guys who would be rock band types dont take the choir training. So we have a generation or more that didnt have the public school systems vocal training. bands have slipped back to the roots of rock ,, with a band and a solo lead singer.