The industry has forgotten us rack heads...

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by slight-return

We all have our own ideas...say hello to Mr soldering iron

but I guess I'm the only one.

not by a long shot - just you are focused on your ideas - you want (got) what you want - just like everyone else

want to have a really frustrating time? -- try playing an instrument that large portions of "the industry" isn't even aware exists!

Hey slight...I dropped riding the big buses as a sideman to make fusion discs...not sure "the industy" is aware of that either...Ha!....but I hear ya, kazoo orchestration is a limited gig. Sorry for your luck.

I dunno man, I guess I just see a hole in the market. I've been thru 10 different pre's, and and 4 different power amps, and 4 different efx, and integrated design is the missing link. I've even had this chat with Bruce Egnater at Summer NAMM, and he agrees. But if he read this thread he'd never waste another penny doing R&D on rack gear. Cuz, ya know, everybody is happy with what is out there and doesn't want anything new.
Am I beginning to sound like a curmudgeon?

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

Hey slight...I dropped riding the big buses as a sideman to make fusion discs...not sure "the industy" is aware of that either...Ha!....but I hear ya, kazoo orchestration is a limited gig. Sorry for your luck.

not sure there was a baroque kazoo

not to worry - not bad luck, just the complications of being an outlier


I dunno man, I guess I just see a hole in the market.


plenty of holes - are they big enoug, are they deep enough to warrant production?
by filling just that hole specifically are you ignoring another? (opportunity cost)

is there a way to get a Michigan loader in there and fill a bunch of holes at once reasonably well


I've been thru 10 different pre's, and and 4 different power amps, and 4 different efx,


Woof! I can't tell ya how many units I've went trough looking for stuff to fit thing I wanted to do(even all the way to the soundart chameleon) - 10-4-4 doesn't seem like a great deal to me though

and integrated design is the missing link.


In some ways, integration kills the flexibility you were talking about.
It makes it so this pre is married to those FX to that power amplifier
convenient in it's monolitic
can be inconvenient for the same reason

Not that it can't be done - the SWR Mo bass comes to immediate mind
and it was loved and hated for those above reasons

Cuz, ya know, everybody is happy with what is out there and doesn't want anything new.


hmm, I think that comes back to that same misunderstanding of "everybody's got what they want"
that was my fault for using imprecise language to sound more casual - as I explained in my last post I meant more
"everybody has desires"

problem is "everybody" is an aggregate - it's a COLLECTION of individual desires
So there is a product-design tightrope to walk - balancing the design so that it appeals to enough people to be a product with market viability vs addressing specific needs (and not alienating other users in addressing that)

so there is that "most of the most more of the time" sort of deal

now, there is the fully custom option - it reduces the market (the "everybody" for the sake of the product) to the individual.
Of course the costs are also put on tat individual




Am I beginning to sound like a curmudgeon?

The opposite actually - you sound like someone who still has hope product design isn't intractable and imperfect.

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by slight-return

plenty of holes - are they big enoug, are they deep enough to warrant production?
by filling just that hole specifically are you ignoring another? (opportunity cost)

hmm, I think that comes back to that same misunderstanding of "everybody's got what they want"

problem is "everybody" is an aggregate - it's a COLLECTION of individual desires

I gotcha about your meaning of "everybody", I was referring to the other posts. Everybody's that posted here is cool with the state of the industry, rack product wise.

And the holes...ah the holes. If more folks were dissatisfied, and a hole was big enough, someone would fill it, right? Or maybe, someone fills one that only one guy sees, and the people go "Listen to that! I didn't even know there was a hole there!" I mean, who knew I NEEDED a Moogerfooger? O.K., I don't. Just kidding.

No wait....a RACKMOUNT Moogerfooger....that would be KEWL!!!!!

My sad, desperate, and yet optimistic *chuckle* hope for this thread was for folks to talk about what they need and want in their racks that isn't out there. And IF they were dissatisfied (which they obviously are not), we could point the the Namm show floor to get some things done. For those of us able to get in to Namm, you can get face time with amp designers. I've spoken with many of them. They WANT to hear what "feet on the ground" players are thinking.

But alas *sigh*, it's me, my 'holes', my soldering gun, and my masters in electrical engineering....

[slight-return]

And the holes...ah the holes. If more folks were dissatisfied, and a hole was big enough, someone would fill it, right?

Depends...ROI


My sad, desperate, and yet optimistic *chuckle* hope for this thread was for folks to talk about what they need and want in their racks that isn't out there.
...
They WANT to hear what "feet on the ground" players are thinking.


Ah, this gets into research design - the thread started out wayyy too loaded.

One of the big problems was the question started out psuhing a specific position (subject/object separation is totally blown)

reread that topic post - it wasn't askin', it was tellin'


But alas *sigh*, it's me, my 'holes', my soldering gun, and my masters in electrical engineering....

Not to worry, engineering often has problems with the management side of things (target fixation and optimistic bias being a couple of the problems)
You know the drill - It's not uncommon for the dev guy to get married to pet features/designs and get oh so tense at feature strip or be evangelical (or a zealot ) at design/redesign or even degrade the potential user "yeah, but they should (want/understand/use this)...they are just stupid"

being too close to the dev specifics can compromise all kinds of areas - QA, IP , risk/cost analysis, etc

it's par for that course

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by slight-return

Ah, this gets into research design - the thread started out wayyy too loaded.

One of the big problems was the question started out psuhing a specific position (subject/object separation is totally blown)

reread that topic post - it wasn't askin', it was tellin'

Yeah, you sho is right. Never thought of that.....not a good topic post for what I was trying for...loaded like you say....maybe it was late....

[slight-return]

it happens - look around that ground and you'll see my footprints there too
it can be a lot easier to see from the outside.

[GuitarPlayerFL]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

Guess players don't want stereo tone, wet/dry/wet or anything else a rack system can give you...

You're either:

1) A bedroom guitar player

or

2) Someone with a van or pickup truck with ramps

or

3) Have roadies

...cause all those amps just to hear stereo is TOO MUCH caca to transport around to a gig. Especially since nobody off stage hears it.

I go with as little as possible and it sounds good.

[timrocker]

3shiftgtr; I hear ya. I much prefer to play in stereo, also. Although I'm currently doing live in mono, since I'm still short the dough needed to complete my live rack rig. It's true-the gear manufacturers are going with the current trend of pedals, amps, cabs. I work a lot of concerts, and you hardly ever see a rack roll in for a guitar rig any more. Which says to me: If you do racks, and you do it well, you're in a lot better position right at the moment. Because you're bucking the trend.

[petejt]

You know you don't really need a full-on rack system to play in stereo or wet/dry/wet...

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by GuitarPlayerFL

You're either:

1) A bedroom guitar player

or

2) Someone with a van or pickup truck with ramps

or

3) Have roadies

...cause all those amps just to hear stereo is TOO MUCH caca to transport around to a gig. Especially since nobody off stage hears it.

I go with as little as possible and it sounds good.

I have and do play everything from 10k seat sheds to dive bars for tip money.

An 8 space rack into a cab with a controller on the floor, is no different than a head, cab and a pedal board, lugging wise and footprint wise.

And I have done many gigs with a Fender Blues deluxe, a Boss GT3, and a wah.

So what's your point?

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by petejt

You know you don't really need a full-on rack system to play in stereo or wet/dry/wet...

Right...lotsa ways to do it. And that is the problem.

What if a manufacturing company actually INTEGRATED stuff in a tube stereo format? What if there was something out there that took the processing power of say, an eclipse, and INTEGRATED it into a stereo tube format? In one unit. I realize I approached it wrong in my topic post, but one is doing it and I think it is a great idea.

But according to everybody on this thread, those manufacturers are stupid and foolish, cuz everybody has what they want. 'Cept lil ol me.....

I feel sooooo alooooone......

[TheGrooveking]

Antagonizing others doesn't bring others into the fold. You seem to have predetermined idea of what is acceptable and think others should agree. As to gear manufactures making some of this stuff you want, do the buisness plan on it and besides yourself and few others who may buy it where does it generate the revenue/profit to sustain a business?

You are one of the few driving the stereo thing, but in reality many clubs only have their PA's set up for mono. Additionally stereo in live rigs, can add phasing problems.

As to your last post on tube stereo, the guitar output is mono, so it will always take some processor to make it stereo, unless you are talking guitar synth type pickups/systems.

TheGrooveking

[slight-return]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

What if a manufacturing company actually INTEGRATED stuff in a tube stereo format? What if there was something out there that took the processing power of say, an eclipse, and INTEGRATED it into a stereo tube format? In one unit.

Oh, probably pretty much the same thing that's happening in this thread.

you'd have some guys find maybe they like the processing section, but not the power amp section, or would rather have an all analog signal path or that (gasp) are wanting to use the unit with other-than-guitar, but find the voicing of the pre specific to guitar, etc

and then they'd complaint that
everybody has what they want. 'Cept lil ol me.....

I feel sooooo alooooone......

It's kind of a reflection of what you are feeling - you're an engineer, you know the boogie - integration tends to freeze the parts of the architecture..
it trades some flexibility to reduce the overhead of dealing with more discrete type system components

so, you've decided for the user what combination and configuration of components they are going to be using (and we assume "wants")
If it's a production unit, then you are saying that for "everyone" in your intended market and ignoring those outside that
it's basically another " The industry has forgotten us rack heads..." / "everybody has what they want. 'Cept lil ol me....."
-- ceptin you'll be on the inside of the 'everybody' (an inlier) so it won't seem as sucky
(meanwhile, I'll be pushed further into the cold )

some sneetches have stars on thars


funny how that works ain't it...compromises seem a lot more reasonable when you are getting what you want

People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly, when you're alone
Women seem wicked, when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down"
-J Morrison

[Jakez]

Originally Posted by bengerm77

This is why nobody cares about rack stuff anymore:




and even in the cheap range there's the line 6 spider series and the Peavey vypyr. Why would anybody buy a whole new rack setup when they can get rack-lite from these 4+ channel amps? Rack stuff is super cool to me and I love it, but I would ditch it for a suitable 3 channel amp and effects pedals.

At least for now, the head and cab guys are winning.

duuudee... who have learned you to speak that dirty?... do you know what your talking about?