Tried leveling frets for the first time...

[tglbasser]

the thing with messing with frets is taking ones time and do a little and then check it the do a little and check it all day if you have to. Less is better than more. Never get in a hurry I say. Lately I've been getting alot of guitars that require some kind of fret fileing. Why this is happening so much now must be conditions where the axe is kept or someone tweeking --I don't know. I get alot of file one fret under one string--that's odd to me.

[mrbrown49]

Originally Posted by tglbasser

the thing with messing with frets is taking ones time and do a little and then check it the do a little and check it all day if you have to. Less is better than more. Never get in a hurry I say. Lately I've been getting alot of guitars that require some kind of fret fileing. Why this is happening so much now must be conditions where the axe is kept or someone tweeking --I don't know. I get alot of file one fret under one string--that's odd to me.

Somebody told me a while ago in regards to fret work, "If you are working too hard, you're probably doing something wrong." I try to keep that in the back of my head while I'm doing fret work. It's really easy to get over zealous and remove way too much material when leveling and crowning. Diagnose the problem, focus on the problem areas, and check and recheck as you go.

[musicdog400]

When I did a fret level on my 10 string recently I finished by polishing them with steel wool but I stopped shy of having them polished totally smooth. The result is when I tap a note, and bend it side to side, the roughness of the fret top keeps the note sounding. I kind of like it, though I am sure this is not what most people are looking for.

[SoldierStape01]

That is a unique way to do that musicdog... It makes me think... I agree 1000% with mrbrown... If you are working 'to hard' with frets... you need to stop and calm down cause something isn't right with something...

[WRGKMC]

That roughness chews up guitar strings really fast. It will also excelerate uneven fret wear. I'd get them buffed up when you get a chance. They should feel like glass with new strings if done right.

[SoldierStape01]

Ahh... i see the downfall now.....

[WRGKMC]

If you inspect strings when they are changed out and look at the wrapped strings closely (if you bend notes alot) you can see how much the frets are eating into the wrapped strings. These notched strings tend to recrown the frets but not in a nice way.

As the strings notch out they wear on frets with the round wound wraps, and cut lines into the frets. This can play all kinds of hell on intonation, simular to tuning issues when you have a notch in the nut. As you bend the notes these groove tend to curve on the frets. When you bend the nect string, the wrapps will be different and not ligned up with the other string. The grooves will then cut the wrapps on the strings and the fret will wear down much faster too.

because the strings arent making contact with a smooth single point, you tend to apply even more pressure playing to prevent buzz and get better tone and this exasterbates the situation.

In my case I rarely break strings with the brand I'm using and I do run my finger under the bottom of the wrapped strings to check wear.

[katillac]

Originally Posted by WRGKMC

A finished maple board is a pain in the ass to do fret work with. It wouldnt be so bad if fender put decent frets in, the crap they use now is likely recycled tin cans. The frets wear out within a year with my playing.

You can make a neck protector, take a piece of plastic and cut a stencil fret slot then put it over the fret with the fret through the hole. This prevents damage to the finish, but its onlt good for 1 fret at a time. Taping off is just as easy.

Whats toughest is refretting. Many times the laquer is right up to the fret edge and pulling the frets either cracks the finish around the frets, or its left behind making the new frets hard to reseat. Then you need to remove the excess finish so the fret will seat properly against the wood, and then you're into refinishing the neck.

I'm getting ready to redo my Tele Neck. I been putting it off by getting as much life out of the existing frets, but the import frets are as cheezy as they can get. I'm having to recrown and polish with every new set of strings.

I've been getting the itch to try my hand at refretting one of my guitars. The frets are too narrow for my taste, but I may just sell the guitar and get another SX. I like the frets on those. I do tape off my entire fretboard and that's not a practice I intend to stop. My next guitar probably will be one with a maple fretboard and if the last batch Kurt at Rondomusic had is any indication, I definitely will be refinishing the neck. I can't stand that orange-y "aged" tint they used on the last batch. I like matte finish. I don't feel intimidated by that, though, and with what I've learned from you guys, I feel fairly confident about removing the frets to do a neck refinish.

Originally Posted by tglbasser

the thing with messing with frets is taking ones time and do a little and then check it the do a little and check it all day if you have to.

Great stuff there, new guy! (See? I don't call everyone n00bs.) Not long ago, there was a thread in one of the other forums about DIY fret level/crown/polish work and a few guys talked about how fast they did theirs. My first one didn't take very long, but then it only had one fret that was slightly off. My next LCP will be a bit more work, as I know I have two frets that are high on the bass side and one on the treble side. I love my guitars and I want to do things right. I think you're gonna fit in around here pretty well. Welcome aboard!

Originally Posted by mrbrown49

Somebody told me a while ago in regards to fret work, "If you are working too hard, you're probably doing something wrong." I try to keep that in the back of my head while I'm doing fret work. It's really easy to get over zealous and remove way too much material when leveling and crowning. Diagnose the problem, focus on the problem areas, and check and recheck as you go.

Sage.

Originally Posted by musicdog400

When I did a fret level on my 10 string recently I finished by polishing them with steel wool but I stopped shy of having them polished totally smooth. The result is when I tap a note, and bend it side to side, the roughness of the fret top keeps the note sounding. I kind of like it, though I am sure this is not what most people are looking for.

I saw WRGKMC's response to this and I agree with him in principle, but I also take into account that guitars like yours are used more for tapping work (for lack of better term, if there is one to describe the style), where I guess less bending is better. Am I on the right track?

[narwhal]

Originally Posted by WRGKMC

A finished maple board is a pain in the ass to do fret work with. It wouldnt be so bad if fender put decent frets in, the crap they use now is likely recycled tin cans. The frets wear out within a year with my playing.

Truth. I had a Squier '51 for a while, and was amazed at the level of fret-wear after about a year of casual playing. The lower frets had already started pitting from playing standard open chords.



.

[gearhead1972]

Stew mac has some great articles on fret work, and some pretty cheap radius blocks
Clicky 1
clicky 2
Minor height issues can be worked out with a good set of needle files

[tglbasser]

Thanks Katillac for you coments-This is a really fast moving forum--faster than I am used to. Have a great day.

[katillac]

No worries, dude! If the speed of this one scares you, wear some Depends™ if you ever visit some of the other boards. We've been accused of being really slow to respond here on DIY in the past. But then, that's usually when someone has really screwed up from not taking their time and wants an answer yesterday.

[SoldierStape01]

Doesn't it always seem like the people that bitch about response time and such are the same people that don't give any details and already pissed around and made their project FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition....)

[cptnitty]

Originally Posted by WRGKMC

Did you have a radius block to match the radius of the neck, and did you loosen the truss rod first? Two first items you need for proper leveling.

loosen the truss rod??? won't that change the fret board? I don't understand.
thanks

[katillac]

Originally Posted by SoldierStape01

Doesn't it always seem like the people that bitch about response time and such are the same people that don't give any details and already pissed around and made their project FUBAR (Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition....)

EXACTLY what I was trying to say, but just couldn't cut it. Thank you!! I still subscribe to a modding thread for my mobile phone on a board for such things just for the lulz. It never fails that some twit will need help immediately in a thread that's all but dead now, screaming and crying that he bricked his phone. It's almost always because they have a newer version of the phone and didn't bother reading enough of the thread to find that there are two firmware versions, each requiring its own unique set of hacking tools.

All that, in spite of the very first post urging people to back everything up first, then carefully read the instructions. Impatient little fucks deserve their panic.

Originally Posted by cptnitty

loosen the truss rod??? won't that change the fret board? I don't understand.
thanks

After you loosen all the strings, the neck will have some backbow to it and needs to be adjusted for the neck to be flat. Leveling the frets when the neck isn't flat is counterproductive to how it will be when restrung.

Think of it like this: put a big rubber band around your upper arm, then around your thumb with your arm bent. As you straighten out your arm, the rubber band gets tighter. That's like your strings. Remove the rubber band (strings) and your hand will fall outward, straightening your arm because there's no tension on it. So, if a fretboard is flat with string tension on it, when you release that tension, the neck bends backward.

Hope that makes sense.

[WRGKMC]

""loosen the truss rod??? won't that change the fret board? I don't understand"".


When a guitar is strung up and tuned to pitch, the strings have 100+lbs pull on the neck. The truss counterbalances this pull.

When the strings are removed, the neck will back bow in most cases. This will depend on how the neck was built and how thick and stiff it is, but it usually backbows.

Then with this backbow, you try to level the frets. You wind up taking too much meat on the middel frets from 5~10.

Then you restring the guitar and find the relief is too high so what do you do? you tighten the truss and but back bow on it and possibly reverse warp the neck and cause perminant damage.

What should be done is, with strings removed, Level the neck from the fretboard with a notched straight edge. Make the fretboar level using the truss and loosening it in most cases. Then you level the frets to a level fretboard.

Once restrung you'll get your normal relief and then you reapply truss tension so you have your normal .009 clearance checked with feeler gauges from the 5~7th frets and the straight edge placed on the fretboard.

Depending on how much wear there is you need to take the unworn frets down to the level of the deepest worn ones and then adjust the nut to match what you've taken off.

This is very precise work and theres no room for screwing up or you'll be looking at a new fret job or playing a guitar that constantly drifts. Without exact specs and crowning done right you'll never get the harmonics or intonation out of the instrument you should. When it comes down to it most of us who have done fret work before have also created some major disasters in their time as well.

Self education, trial and error are fine if you can afford it. I was luckey enough to work with a master Luthire for awhile and picked up a few tricks first hand. Most though came first hand trying through experience until its second nature. Back then a shop was luckey to have a peterson strobe scope. Musicians couldnt afford them so the ones who exceled had good ear pitch. Still to this day I only use a tuner as a quick reference for open tuning then do everything else by ear and feel of both string tension and body resonance.

A guitar must be in tune with itself to sound right. It needs to vibrate as a single unit. This resonant tone must be achieved before you compound the problem by plugging the thing in. If your truss is off, and you tune to a meter, the meter isnt going to tell you if the string tension is correct. Single notes may be dead on, and bar chords can be horribly sharp. When you do plug in, using a headphone amp and headphones reveals all kinds of things a guitar amp masks. You will never get every chord on the neck to play without some beating occuring, but you can get it close enough to where it isnt noticed when you play with other instruments.

[musicdog400]

I'm a novice to this stuff still, but I always get out the level to check the neck before I start filing frets down. You can either make it straight with the truss rod, or get a fancy jig to straighten it out.

[Slunderfungus]

Originally Posted by Furtive

I believe what kept me safe from wiping out the frets was watching instructional vids on youtube, and erring on the side of caution - taking off as little fret material as possible.

YEEEEAAAAAAHHH, You Tube is the the shit man, I gotta try making a tele from a a couple 2x12s and a chisel now! Seriously I got the tools to do that, plus the experience in finish carpentry....


I had to do a fret job on a Sanatoga 24 fret semi hollow body I bought on ebay, the 15th fret was a bit high on the hi E and B strings. I used a fine 2x6 diamond steel I bought back when I was taking machining in college along with a smaller width straight steel. I use them for gunsmithing now twas the shiznit. Great sounding axe, but thefrets were too close togethr past the 12th fret...just didn't sound quite right I sold it, and the guy I sold it to loves it so...no harm. Then again he plays mainly rythem, I don't think I've ever seen him play past the 12th fret. I might also add that a few other people couldn't here what I was hearing, or not hearing. Seriously that axe didn't seem to be as clear above the 12th fret, it just seemed diminished to me. Above the 12th fret was AWESOME, man it had a growl that was unique. I can only hope to find something else that growls like that, it was sooo raw and in your face. It also weighs 9 pounds and was aggravating the three bulged discs in my neck. Which caused the nerve down my left arm to spasm, and hurt just like the sciatica I had down my legs when I blew the disc in my lower back, otherwise I would have kept it