Has anyone tried the Lexicon MX200?

[UnderTheGroove]

I haven't heard much about this unit. It's a Lexicon rack reverb unit that has a USB port to connect to you DAW to allow it to be used as a plug-in. I really like the concept, as it seems to give the possibility of the best of both worlds - hardware processing with the ease of software. At this price point ($200 street) I'm worried that it may end up being the worst of both worlds - average reverb sound that is going to be outdated...

Lexicon MX200 (http://www.lexiconpro.com/mx200/index.asp)

[audioguru]

Groovy:

I'm interested to see what people think as well (but probably for a different reason.) I'm the Market Manager for Lexicon, and the USB connection on MX200 (as well as the Factory Programs) were a good bit of my fault. ;)

I've only seen a few actual reviews from users on the web so far -- but they have been FLYING off the shelves -- and of course, I want some feedback.

Sure, I'm a bit biased, but having been a recording geek LONG before I worked for mfg, I think the effects sound pretty sweet -- they were very easy to dial in. I think it's TOO cheap :)

But rather than try to sell you on it -- go to a dealer and try one out... I'd be interested to see what you think.

TGB

[UnderTheGroove]

thanks for your reply audioguru. I'll have to go see if I can hear it at the store. I haven't seen any of the user reviews...could you point me to some?

While your here, I'll ask if you can comment on the difference in sound and processing to the Pantheon reverb that came bundled with SONAR 4 PE?

[audioguru]

Lots of comments, one review here:

[/URL]

One review @ HC here: [URL=http://]http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/mx200-1.html (http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=151367&page=1&pp=25)

One more here: http://www.americanmusical.com/amsforum/tm.asp?m=1102&mpage=1&key=&#1102 (http://)

Compared to Pantheon? I think MX200 is head and shoulders above the P in sound quality (that's just me, not the "Party Line") -- although P doesn't at all sound bad, and is way more tweakable than MX200.

BTW - After writing programs for MX200, some of the guys here asked me if I could write a whole new batch of presets for Pantheon to make it sound as good "out of the box." :D

Probably will for an LE version, or if we do an AU version.

TGBhttp://www.americanmusical.com/amsforum/tm.asp?m=1102&mpage=1&key=&#1102 (http://http://www.americanmusical.com/amsforum/tm.asp?m=1102&mpage=1&key=&#1102) http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/mx200-1.html

[greendoor]

WARNING - this unit is being marketed as though it can be used as a VST plugin. As I see it, nothing could be further from the truth.

It's a stereo in/out hardware reverb. You need to use the audio or s/pdif i/o. No audio is carried over USB, which is good because it appears to be USB1, not USB2.

Why are they mentioning that it works like a VST plugin, when it clearly doesn't? You cannot run multiple instances, because it's a hardware processor - definately not a VST plugin effect as understood by musicians.

My understanding is that the VST part of it is simply control software - so it's more like a SoundDiver tweaking sort of GUI that I'm guessing loads as a fake VST "plugin".

Try before you buy with this one.

Musicians need true plugin compatibility - not faked. A TC Powercore this isn't.

[greendoor]

That's not to say the concept is a bad one ... just that I see a lot of people jumping to the wrong conclusions, and understandably so.

The more I think about the concept, the more I like about.

I've been thinking about getting a hardware reverb again (after ditching them all a couple of years ago for plugins). I've tried many, many plugins reverbs - and the standard is getting better all the time, but ultimately the brand name hardware reverbs still rule.

Convolution has given us a taste of expensive reverb, and Lexicon needs to be aware that this is what they are competing against: cheap software running impulses of expensive Lexicon hardware! So if I spend money on a Lexicon box, it better sound damn good.

Speculation on the net is that Lexicon won't put their good algorithmns into true VST plugins because of fears of piracy. That makes as much sense as the record companies not releasing new songs for fear of piracy. Sure, it will happen. But guess what, because of convolution, every kid can have 98% of the Lexicon sound for free anyway.

There are guys like me out there who need quality reverb with low CPU load, and no stupid dongles or challenge/response or other crap. I'm convinced that Hardware is where we have to go, and I don't mind paying for quality gear that will last and survive the inevitable upgrade path.

Is this it? I don't know yet, but it seems like a good idea :)

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by greendoor
WARNING - this unit is being marketed as though it can be used as a VST plugin. As I see it, nothing could be further from the truth.

I can see where things might get a little confusing, but I don't think it's quite fair to say that Lexicon is being intentionally misleading. IMO, their website (source: the link in the first post on this thread) has this to say:

STUDIO OPERATION
In the studio, advances in computer-based recording have led many engineers to value the instant control and heads-up use of plug-in effects – but many still yearn for the rich, complex sound found in a dedicated hardware processor. Now, Lexicon provides a USB interface with intuitive cross-platform VST® and Audio Unit plug-in windows, allowing the MX200 to function as a “hardware plug-in” – recognized and functioning within VST and Audio Units-compatible DAWs as a plug-in effect, but still operating as a dedicated hardware unit. This unique USB plug-in feature allows users to easily control the MX200 in their computer-based recordings within the graphical interface that appears in the recording application like a plug-in, with full automation and recall features. Now software-based recording engineers can stay focused on the heart of their studio – the application window of their recording software. A powerful cross-platform Editor/Librarian software package is included as well. MX-Edit™ lets you create, edit, compare, save and load reverb and effects programs for use with your MX200 on your Mac® or Windows® XP computer.

To me, that makes it pretty clear that you're using hardware but under VST control. And the idea is not exactly without precedent: Yamaha has been blurring the lines between hardware and software, and hardware under on screen control for a while now too.

Being the owner of a couple of Yamaha products with similar capabilities (the Studio Manager control software that allows for onscreen control of your Yamaha digital board is a great example), I have to say that I've personally come to rely on and appreciate that kind of centralized control. No more sticking your head down by the rack (dropping out of the monitoring sweet spot) to read the screen display and edit your RT60 time... it's a "cool thing" IMO. :cool:

It's a stereo in/out hardware reverb. You need to use the audio or s/pdif i/o. No audio is carried over USB, which is good because it appears to be USB1, not USB2.

Just like with my Yamaha stuff (well, except for the mLan stuff ;) ), the Lexicon apparently still needs to be interfaced via analog cables or S/PDIF cables, but I'm okay with that... since I use Pro Tools, I couldn't address it as an "audio interface" anyway, but I could see where that feature (audio over the USB link) might be beneficial to some people.

Why are they mentioning that it works like a VST plugin, when it clearly doesn't?

Aah, but I bet it does in at least one respect - as far as your DAW is concerned, it's a VST plug in window, but that control data is servicing and controlling an outboard hardware unit instead of being handled by your CPU or DSP card. The edit window opens as a VST window, and you can control the hardware, automate parameters from within your DAW, etc.

You cannot run multiple instances, because it's a hardware processor - definately not a VST plugin effect as understood by musicians.

Again, the website made me think it is indeed a hardware unit (with all the usual limitations that entails) but with the "control panel" available from within any VST or AU compatible DAW software.

Now, Lexicon provides a USB interface with intuitive cross-platform VST® and Audio Unit plug-in windows, allowing the MX200 to function as a “hardware plug-in” – recognized and functioning within VST and Audio Units-compatible DAWs as a plug-in effect, but still operating as a dedicated hardware unit. This unique USB plug-in feature allows users to easily control the MX200 in their computer-based recordings within the graphical interface that appears in the recording application like a plug-in, with full automation and recall features.

My understanding is that the VST part of it is simply control software - so it's more like a SoundDiver tweaking sort of GUI that I'm guessing loads as a fake VST "plugin".

Exactly! :) But I do think the should probably try to make that a bit clearer from the get-go, but I don't think they were trying to mislead anyone.

Try before you buy with this one.

As always - absolutely! ;)

Musicians need true plugin compatibility - not faked. A TC Powercore this isn't.

No, it's not... nor do I think it was intended to be. Think of it as a standard outboard hardware unit that you can control and automate the parameters of, from within your DAW software... hey, maybe that's a good description to use in your ads Lexicon. ;)

Speaking of which, any chance you can arrange for me to get my hands on a review unit for a while audioguru? I admit the unit had caught my eye, but honestly I was hoping you folks would do something similar from the control side, but on a little more "high end" product... but your comments about the effects and audio quality have renewed my interest in hearing one. :)

[Phil O'Keefe]

I was just reading a bit more about it in the FAQ section of the Lexicon site and it appears that it does do MIDI over USB, which IMO is a good thing - that means you should be able to not only control parameters but also tempo sync effects via MIDI clock messages. Definitely a good feature IMO, and more important to me personally than audio over MIDI.

[C JoGo]

Originally posted by UnderTheGroove
I haven't heard much about this unit. It's a Lexicon rack reverb unit that has a USB port to connect to you DAW to allow it to be used as a plug-in. I really like the concept, as it seems to give the possibility of the best of both worlds - hardware processing with the ease of software. At this price point ($200 street) I'm worried that it may end up being the worst of both worlds - average reverb sound that is going to be outdated...

Lexicon MX200 (http://www.lexiconpro.com/mx200/index.asp)

Is this unit on par with the TC M300?? DUal engines ~~ maybe chips from the MXP-1 ??

[Phil O'Keefe]

I don't know how it compares sonically with the TC (remember, I still have not heard one in action), but according to their website, yes, it is a dual engine processor, so it should be capable of doing two effects at once.

[C JoGo]

Finally ready to sell our beloved LXP 5 ( tired of pot repairs) loved the warmth from that series >> better than our PCM 70's.

Thinking of picking up another used $300 MXP-1 ...but if this newest addition has that same quality chips installed...I may wait ...for the MX 200. Anyone have an extra MXP-1 for sale??

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'd also recommend that you ask that question in the Swap Meet thread C JoGo. :)

[audioguru]

Sorry to post & run - I've been on the road all weekend.

Some comments:

Greendoor sez, WARNING - this unit is being marketed as though it can be used as a VST plugin. As I see it, nothing could be further from the truth.¨

Well it *can* be used as a VST controlled hardware, which means it looks to the DAW like a VST plug which is what we're saying (see Phil's post from our website). We've been very VERY careful not to overtly imply that audio is carried over USB. There are reasons for that, but you'd have to catch me at a trade show to 'splain it - rather complicated to describe, and in my position, you have to be awfully careful about what you say "in print.¨

¨It's a stereo in/out hardware reverb. You need to use the audio or s/pdif i/o."

Precisement.

¨Why are they mentioning that it works like a VST plugin, when it clearly doesn't?

Err¡K because it has VST and AU control panels w/ automation?

"You cannot run multiple instances, because it's a hardware processor - definately not a VST plug-in effect as understood by musicians.¨

Right - it's a hardware processor. That's *good* - You could, however, record the effects as a track, and send something else to the hardware for a second instance.

¨My understanding is that the VST part of it is simply control software¨

Right again.

¨Try before you buy with this one.

Please DO. I'd never buy a piece of gear without checking it out - why should you?

¨Musicians need true plugin compatibility - not faked.

IMHO, musicians need gear that works really well, at a pretty reasonable price - whatever that looks like.

"TC Powercore this isn't.¨

Nope - and it's not $1200, either (plus the cost of plugs). Try it yourself and see how it SOUNDS. That's probably the biggest determining factor.

Just to be clear - there was NEVER any intent to mislead anyone - bottom line is, there are complications in trying to open an "audio back door¨ in software that wasn't designed to do that with ASIO drivers that only want to see ONE audio device. Not insurmountable, but costly. That paradigm didn't fit this product, which was spec'd to come in at about $200 US street. For that price, MX200 is a steal with the algorithms that we put in there - the USB VST/AU control is an added bonus.

"Speculation on the net is that Lexicon won't put their good algorithmns into true VST plugins because of fears of piracy. That makes as much sense as the record companies not releasing new songs for fear of piracy. Sure, it will happen.¨

There's a pretty involved thread about this here (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91380&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60) which I didn't contribute to, but there's pretty accurate info there, such as, if Lexicon did that, it would be the #1 target for piracy. I understand your analogy, but it doesn't quite work because, understand, Lex reverbs are algorithm-based - which means, if cracked, 35 years of intellectual property suddenly becomes open source. It's not just a matter of losing revenue on one product, it's giving away the farm.

"But guess what, because of convolution, every kid can have 98% of the Lexicon sound for free anyway.¨

I understand that sentiment as well, but it's not really accurate. You'll see some of this info in the thread above, but the thing is, IR and convolvers can't really get the SOUND of a Lex from an impulse response, because Dr. G is a friggin' genius, and better understands the psychoacoustic principles of reverb better than anyone I know. Think of it this way - a "sample¨ of a violin or sax sounds pretty convincing with one hit, but try to actually PLAY something with it, and the illusion of reality quickly dissolves; the ear is more sophisticated than that. Same goes with these reverbs. So it's more like 35% of the sound, not 98%.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit. I'm not trying to shoot you down, just clear up some misunderstandings - and you're certainly not the only one who has had those thoughts.

Phil -- thanks for your replies; PM me for info on getting one for review.

CJ -- I won't compare a Lex product to any competitor -- I have my own opins -- I'd rather you compare and make your own.

It IS two independent processors, meaning you're not limited to just a 'verb plus an effect, but any two effects at one time (e.g. two reverbs, two delays, reverb + chorus, etc.)


Best,

TGB

(Edited by moderator to attempt to correct code / formatting - sorry if I didn't get the punctuation exactly as intended, but if this works, at least it should be a bit easier to read :) )

[audioguru]

Whoops -- I tried to change those control codes -- but they stayed in there. :mad:

TGB

[The Audio Cave]

Originally posted by C JoGo
Finally ready to sell our beloved LXP 5 ( tired of pot repairs) loved the warmth from that series >> better than our PCM 70's.

Thinking of picking up another used $300 MXP-1 ...but if this newest addition has that same quality chips installed...I may wait ...for the MX 200. Anyone have an extra MXP-1 for sale??

I have an MPX-1 as my main vocal verb and it sounds great. It's a step above the entry level Lexicon models to my ear. I paid $700 new for it and it was worth every cent.

I'm considering a used TC verb, something that was a step below top of the line when it was new 2-3 years ago. TC-3000 maybe?

Lawrence

[Kiwiburger]

Audioguru - thanks for that excellent reply. They way the market is going, with idiots trying to sell software reverbs for $400+, with the added insult of dongles or PACE or C/R, I think this MX200 could be exactly what we need ... I hope I can hear one soon.

[C JoGo]

Originally posted by The Audio Cave


I have an MPX-1 as my main vocal verb and it sounds great. It's a step above the entry level Lexicon models to my ear. I paid $700 new for it and it was worth every cent.

I'm considering a used TC verb, something that was a step below top of the line when it was new 2-3 years ago. TC-3000 maybe?

Lawrence

Had the 3000 , 2000 -- the M~ONE ended up plenty fine for my clients ears.

But since we are 90% TC ..would like to have a little diversity..will look for a MPX...are they a true "dual-engine" ? ( what I really like about the TC, on all models)

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm a fan of diversity in tools, but not having so many options that you become stuck trying to choose between them all. But in general, I like the idea of at least a few reverb / effects "options" - plug ins and hardware - from at least a few different companies. I would prefer to have something from TC, and Lexicon and Waves or whatever, over stacking my studio with devices / plugs from one company exclusively, but that's just me. :)

[C JoGo]

I really enjoyed our Lexicons, in the early days...just that their units were not all true dual engines...and TC incorporated them in every hi~low priced rack. Waiitng for the Eventides to drop in price,,,and then in the meantime >> will pick up a MXP 1

[Phil O'Keefe]

Bump. :)

[Phil O'Keefe]

Bump for Craig. :)

[where02190]

As I've noted in other discussions, IMHO the TC Electronics M1XL is a superb unit, and smokes any of the lower line Lexicons for ease of use and sonic quality. Lush verbs with incredible versatility from broght and snappy to warm and rich, with incredibly reailstic tails even on the longest of decays.

Dual engines give you not one but two great sounding verbs, or any combination of effects you wish. The pitch shifting is superb, and the delays excellent.