What's on your reference CD?

[Phil O'Keefe]

You do have a self burned comp CD that you use as a point of reference when working, right? ;) If you don't you should! :)

So tell us - what are some of the songs you have on your reference CD? And why did they make the cut?

[VotaIdiota]

I don't have a comp cd of tracks by various artists, but I do tote around a small cd case of various full albums, depending on the type of record I'm mixing or whatever.

Depending on the session, the cd list can include:

Radiohead - OK Computer (I love pretty much all their albums, but I'm most familiar with the sound of this one, as well as just thinking it's their best-sounding)
Flaming Lips - Soft Bulletin
Wilco - YHF, A Ghost is Born
Dr. Dre - The Chronic, 2001
Bloc Party - Silent Alarm

And about a million others, which I can't think of right now.

[Flaat]

I'm about to compile such a cd. I'm really only starting on the "studio journey", but I've listened a lot to music, and often know what soundscapes I like. Any comments good or bad are welcome. :) Some of the "givens" so far are:

Grant Lee Buffalo "Mockinbirds". - The mix is a bit muddy, still I've listened to it so many places that I "know" its sound. It incorporates many different instruments, combined in different ways.

Rebecca St. James "Give Myself Away" Good mix on girls voice. And I like the guitars and dead-on drumsounds aswell.

O.C. Supertones "This is what it comes to" OR "Lift Me Up" - One ska-song is also mandatory imo, I just haven't decided which yet. Brass-instruments are better on the first, guitar on the second. I like the bass-drum on "This is what it comes to" very much.

Rebecca St. James "Mirror" Maybe not be best sound, but still it's a type of sound I rarely hear on any other songs.

DC Talk "Supernatural" - There's a lot going on in this song, it's like a pool of mixed sounds and ideas.

Alice Cooper "Sex, Death And Money" - Another of the "good olds" who have managed to make a metal-cd with modern sound. This song is very processed, and somewhat what many bands are going for these days. Very powerful.

Alice Cooper "Cold Machines" - A more "standard" song, very powerful soundscape.

[doug osborne]

I'll agree with VotaIdiota's Wilco and Radiohead for that kind of music. REM Automatic... and Talking Heads Naked are two of the finest examples of late-analog-era rock recordings. Ryan Adams Gold is something newer, and a little squashed, but pretty damn good.

It's a lot easier to find good classical and jazz comps. I think everyone should always listen to some full-bodied orchestral music before mixing - Bruce Botnick's recording of the Star Trek Nemisis music is stunning.

[gearmike]

*Opens Itunes to check the titels and order of the songs on his test disc...


Nino- Amor Amor

A track I found on an import compilation from the Netherlands. Great Spanish song, everyone asks if its the Gypsy Kings. I like that it's in Spanish...I can't sing along or follow the song so i HAVE to listen actively...

One Mint Julep - Poncho Sanchez

Un-believable track. The dynamics are huge, the mix is so open that in the right room with the right set up you swear you can smell all those Cuban players. It's even better in DSD. I've worked with Poncho live quite a bit so I'm pretty familiar with the sound from their instruments, and this recording nails it.

Sing Sang Song - Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band

Another great track. Big band, I don't think there were any overdub's, sounds like the band is in the room with you.

Let Me Touch You For A While / Gravity - Allison Kraus & Union Station

Two great tracks, if you don't get it right Allison's voice can tear your head off, get it right and its sublime...

The Summons Disc 2,B - John Grisham

I find that having a section form a Book on CD is a godsend. Especially when setting up a PA system. But in the studio it's usefull to. Having a five minute section of very well recorded voice over is great.

C-June - Layton

A heavily produced synth-pop project I worked on. Mastered at Capitol...I always compare it to the way it sounded in that room...

and then a few various tracks of things I'm currently working on...


I hope this wasn't too much info...

[Phil O'Keefe]

No Mike, that's great - the more info the better. :) I appreciate hearing about why each track (or CD ;) ) made the cut, and how it's useful to each person. :cool:

[gearmike]

So Phil,

What do you use?

[where02190]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe
You do have a self burned comp CD that you use as a point of reference when working, right? ;) If you don't you should! :)

If you're talking studio, I have to dissagree. If you reference other already created music, IMHO you set yourself up for simply copying that style of mixing.

If I go to track into an unfamiliar studio, I aways bring my own monitors, so I have a known reference point. I may listen to whatever is my popular nitch of the day or week, but for the most part I keep that to a minimum. I'll use familiar mic/pre combos and listen to the source, then what I get in the control room, and that tells me more than anything if the room is off.

Live, I have an ipod full of whatever style of music I want to use. For heavy rock, I'll go for something like Candlebox or STP, softer stuff or jazz that's vocal oriented, old James Taylor or the standard Steely Dan. However I usually don't use much playback music for PA tuning, I prefer to sweep tones and analyze, then fine tune during soundcheck. I'll run some music and walk the room to make sure coverage is even, but it's really not the same as reinforcing a band, as there's other artifacts, monitors, backline and acoustic info that's added to the mix.

[Kiwiburger]

where02190 - I respectfully request that you reconsider dissagreeing with Phil. (There - was that politically correct enough for you's guys? :)

You are obviously smart enough to know that even if you take your own monitors and outboard into a new studio space, the rooms acoustics are going to be wildy different. Yes - even with nearfields.

I think a CD of short samples of various types of excellent mixes happens to be a very good idea.

I also use spectrum analysis as a tool, but always secondary to comparing with reference CD's. (Or a folder of wave files as the case may be).

[Brand0n1]

White Zombie

Anything off of the;

Astro Creep: 2000 -- Songs of Love, Destruction, and Other Synthetic Delusions of the Electric Head cd..

Songs like;
"El Phantasmo and The Chicken-Run Blast-O-Rama"
"Devil Man"
"I, Zombie"

Terry Date does a good job with hard music.

I do all heavy music too so it works for me.
I dont try to match snare sounds and guitar etc, i just use it
to "remind" my ears of an overall EQ spectrum feel.

[where02190]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger
You are obviously smart enough to know that even if you take your own monitors and outboard into a new studio space, the rooms acoustics are going to be wildy different. Yes - even with nearfields.
Of course they are, but I don't need a reference disc to hear that, all I need is a chain I am familiar with, as I knwo what my monitors sound like.

My approach to recording is to capture onto whatever medium I am recording to what is being produced by the instrument as close as humanly and technically possible. If what I hear in the control room isn't close to what I hear from the instrument, and I have my monitors and a chain (mic-pre) that I am familair with, then I know it's the room that's off. However I try not to work in rooms that have these issues whenever possible. When I am forced to, I trust my instincts rather than the room (which I know I cannot trust).

Fortunately, using nearfields and keeping reference levels down (which I practice religiously) helps alot in lessening room anomilies except in very small rooms.

[Kiwiburger]

Fair enough. I guess tracking and mixing are two seperate issues, and I admit I don't worry about reference CD's when tracking. But I do like to use them when mixing.

[seaneldon]

song i use for reference:

Dismemberment Plan - What Do You Want Me To Say? (bass is punchy in verse, guitars drop out, vocals out front, drums cracking. guitars destroy everyone in chorus)

[where02190]

If I'm mixing, it's only in a room that I am intimately familiar with. AFA referencing when mixing, it's like comaring two porches, one with all cylinders working and one that needs a tune-up. Unmastered tracks in the works will NEVER sound like professional mastered, commercial discs.

Trust your ears and your god given talents.

[Kiwiburger]

I still think there is great value in using reference CD's - especially for beginners, or in unfamiliar studios. The cliche'd wisdom of 'just use your ears' is only good up to a point. Nobody hears things exactly the same way (especially if you've abused your ears for years - i'm lucky to have looked after mine so far). Ears get fatigued. Ears compensate for all sorts of things that equipment can't - meaning, we can be fooled.

I accept what you say about comparing unmastered material with mastered. However - I believe the goal of a great mix is to - ideally - not require huge rescue missions at the mastering stage. Loudness - sure, leave that to mastering guy. So you will need to compensate for loundess. But width & spectrum - why not try to get your mix as close to the norm for your genre as is possible? By comparing with good mixes in the same genre ...

Judging the low end is hard for most people. I feel no shame in comparing my mix with a CD, or glancing at a spectrum analyser for a quick checkup.

If I find I have a hole at - for example 80Hz - I have choices that a mastering guy may not have. Rather than eq'ing the master bus (I disapprove of any master bus effects at the mix stage), I can choose to eq or process either the kick or the bass, depending on which one I want on top.

Without a reference CD or spectrum analyser, I realise that my ears could be fooling me. Maybe in years to come I can throw away these crutches, but I'm guessing i'm not the only one who uses these tools.

[Joe Cole]

I use Jack Of Speed from Steely Dan, I like the separation and space given to each instrument.

For laid back MOR jazz, Lee Ritenour's Wes Bound. It gets ya there. That's the sound folks want.

For rock stuff, I use Jellyfish- That is Why- I love the crispness of drums and the way the made room for thosse vocals.

Also, Rush, Limelight. I grew up listening to it. I know the sound sooo well.


For heavy stuff, I more or less use the above and crank it a knotch in my head, if you get what I am saying....

[jwag]

'Throwing Copper' by Live for rock guitars, voice

'The Way Up' by Pat Metheny Group for jazz ensemble stuff

Any Acoustic Alchemy album for clean steel or nylon guitar tracks

-Jake

[maxmartin]

Well...even if all of you guys will start to beat me up...

I mainly compare to Britney Spears, Celine Dion or Backstreet Boys.


But hey....that's my kind of music i do...

[Spencer Crewe]

M'kay - be gentle....

For acoustic, folk-y music: Any of Mark Knopfler's last 3 CDs, or Alison Krauss & Union Station

For anything "heavy" or "aggressive": anything done by Andy Wallace or Randy Staub usually does the trick

Cheers!
Spencer

edited for spelling

[Flaat]

Hey, Britney has actually had some interesting sounds on her cd's. And Mark Knopfler rules! The sound of his guitar is very nice. I especially like the intro track on "sailing to philadelfia". Very nice tone there.

[robnewton]

For now I've got:
Crystal Method (Legion of Boom is superbly mixed and very loud)
several Chris Whitley songs (accoustic, electric, recorded in a bathroom accoustic...that guys all over the place. Genius!)
White Zombie (more human than human - warlords of mars remix)
Harry Connick and Fiona Apple for piano
Dave Matthews Band (overall mix and killer drums)
etc...

[geek_usa]

Some of the CDs I have here are :


Guns N' Roses - Appetite for Destruction
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magik
Pearl Jam - Yield
Smashing Pumpkins - Gish (gotta love that snare)
Def Leppard - On Thru the Night
My Chemical Romance - Three Cheers for Sweet Revenge (track 6 and 7 are mixed well)
Casting Crowns
Audioslave


yep. that's about it. :)

[EngineGuitarist]

2 CD's i pretty much always have around is Elvis Costello's "This Year's Model" and The Clash's "London Calling".

[Kendrix]

I often / still use Donald Fagens "The Nightfly"
IGY and/or New Frontier. I guess im set in my ways.

They always seem to have the bass dynamics and overall balance and punch just right.

[franknputer]

OK, I'm a live audio guy...:p but my favorite is The Neville Brothers' Yellow Moon. Nice, round bass, lots of different vocals & instruments to hear, both ballads & faster stuff - a good cross-section of almost anything you'd run across.

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by franknputer
OK, I'm a live audio guy...:p but my favorite is The Neville Brothers' Yellow Moon. Nice, round bass, lots of different vocals & instruments to hear, both ballads & faster stuff - a good cross-section of almost anything you'd run across.

This is a great one - produced by Daniel Lanois, and released at about the same time as Bob Dylan's No Mercy, also produced by DL.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I use a bunch of different stuff, depending on what I want to hear and what I'm working on. I don't really use them to try to "cop sounds" as much as I do as an audible reminder... our ears can acclimate fairly quickly to some pretty extreme EQ fluctuations, and so I find it's good to occasionally reference other stuff as a "reality check". A good RTA can also be a useful tool, but for me, I usually find a reference CD is more "fun". ;)

I really like old Steely Dan records - they're very well recorded although usually pretty "dry". I use the Showbiz Kids: The Steely Dan Story, 1972-1980 double CD compilation a lot, since it covers some good bits off of several albums. Fagan's solo album, "The Nightfly" is also a very well recorded record.

I frequently reference The Beatles "Revolver" just because I think it's one of the best records ever made, and I "know" it backwards and forwards. True, it's not super layered, nor super modern, but the songs and parts shine through. And because know it so well, a quick listen of that can quickly tell me a lot about an unfamiliar monitoring environment.

I sometimes use Matthew Sweet's "100% Fun" for raw guitar references... a great CD IMO.

Gotta mention Jellyfish - IMO, "Spilt Milk" is one of the greatest albums of all time, and it is a excellent example of "track compression done right". :cool:

Seal's stuff is also excellent - I really like the track "No Easy Way" - it's a very welll recorded and mixed ballad. Another favorite is Gladys Knight & The Pips "Neither One Of Us" - great mix, great emotion, fantastic song.

I also use some of my own work - again, I "know it" really well, and that can be helpful when I'm in a room I have not worked in before.

I've got lots of favorites, but there you go - a few "off the top of my (very bald ;) ) head". :D

[TBush]

Jellyfish? Does "The Grays" count?! I have referenced that particular Jack Puig mix for a long time now...

For huge metal it's the "Silence is Madness" CD by Blindside. Huge. Or maybe the 3rd P.O.D....

Everclear for cool pop mixes...

I will usually mix until I think it's really REALLY close, then slap in something similar. About 70% of the time I leave it alone, and to the other 30% I make a few adjustments. I tend to work long hours and ear fatigue certainly creeps up.

More breaks- need coffee...

Phil- we're going to see Keaggy in Ft. Wayne in a little 200-seat place in Sept.

[Flaat]

The thirt P.O.D. (Fundamental Elements) is very clear and nice. I understand the choice.
I have the feeling, tho, that they didn't get to "experiment" much on that cd. Their next (satelite) has a much more modern sound, maybe too much, where they got to use several different guitar amps together and such.

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by doug osborne


This is a great one - produced by Daniel Lanois, and released at about the same time as Bob Dylan's No Mercy, also produced by DL.

I love the vibe of Yellow Moon.
However, I always considered it to be rather dark sounding and not a good example of a neutral/balanced mix.
Perhaps you aim for that darker sound?

[fulcrum]

Pat Metheny Group Imaginary Day
Genesis No Son Of Mine
Supertramp Take The Long Way Home
Joe Jackson The Man Who Wrote Danny Boy
Yoko Kanno After - In The Dark - Torch Song
Peter Gabriel Digging In The Dirt
Billy Cobham Stratus
Rush Dreamtime
Dave Matthews Band Rhyme And Reason
Toy Matinee The Ballad Of Jenny Ledge
Alan Parsons Oh Life (There Must Be More)

I chose these for any number of reasons... either because there's a lot of information in the soundscape and I want to study how the engineer made all of it fit in the mix... or there isn't a lot of information and I'm trying to figure out how to make what's there more interesting. Or there's a lot of dynamic contrast and i'm trying to figure out how much, bearing in mind that I'm listening to material that has already been through the mastering process.

Rev 2 of my Ref CD will probably include Gaslighting Abbie by Steely Dan (because Lord help me, I forgot about the Dan when I was burning rev 1-- and I forgot Trevor Horn's work with Seal as well), but I don't know what I'd have to lose from the above list if it came to it. I'd probably also replace the DMB cut from Under The Table with one from Stand Up.

[soundthinker]

I'll second gearmike's Allison Krauss and VotaIdiota's OK Computer. To those I add(among others):

Joshua Judges Ruth - Lyle Lovett (an album with real dynamic range)

Far East Suite - Duke Ellington (for a reminder of what a real acoustic space sounds like when recorded well)

Tidal - Fiona Apple (low end clarity, vocal smoothness)

A Few Small Repairs - Shawn Colvin (Pop mixing, sibilance check)

Justin Timberlake - More Sibilance checking.

People should also check out Bob Katz's website if they haven't already. Specifically his CD Honor Roll (http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=93/)

/jim

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by TBush
Jellyfish? Does "The Grays" count?! I have referenced that particular Jack Puig mix for a long time now...

Absolutely! Good stuff! :cool:

Phil- we're going to see Keaggy in Ft. Wayne in a little 200-seat place in Sept.

IMO, Phil is crimminally under-rated as a guitarist and I love his voice. And he's a very nice and humble person too. I still occasionally use his 220 and Crimson and Blue albums as references too. :) Enjoy the show, and please let me know how you liked it. :)

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Kendrix


I love the vibe of Yellow Moon.
However, I always considered it to be rather dark sounding and not a good example of a neutral/balanced mix.
Perhaps you aim for that darker sound?

It's the kind of mix that sounds bad on poor speakers and awesome on great speakers. I think that more phase-coherent speakers can play this type of mix better. I agree that YM is not overly bright, but when I use it as a reference, I remember this ;)

[januaryscar]

Anything mixed by Mark Trombino (jimmy eat world, blink 182, motion city soundtrack etc). He is the standard for the pop punk songs i am mixing at the moment.

[rydell]

For rock...fidelity-wise...ANYTHING mixed by Andy Wallace....HAND'S DOWN!!!

Nirvana- "Nevermind"
Rage Against The Machine- self-titled, "Evil Empire"
Toadies- "Rubberneck"

-all colossal mixes by Mr. Wallace.

Otherwise....

Zeppelin- zep four, "Houses of the Holy", Physical Graffiti", etc.
(a one-trick-pony recording-wise, but well worth the ride).

Peppers- Blood Sugar, A more 'modern' take on the zep approach to recording...room sounds, live takes with crazy overdubs, direct guitars, candles, vibe....basically an homage to the Zep thing by young guys who obviously appreciated them. Brendan O'brien brought ALOT to the table.

Brendan O'brien has many great albums for reference:

Pearl Jam- "Yield"
Stone Temple Pilots- "Tiny Music"
Bruce Springsteen- "Devils and Dust"

Nigel Godrich:

Radiohead- "O.K. Computer"
Beck- "mutations"



ALL-TIME GREATS:

DARK SIDE OF THE MOON!
THE JOSHUA TREE!!
SGT. PEPPERS!!!

Pick something similar to what you're working on and try to get your mix in the ballpark.

[pretaanluxis]

Andy Wallace is my reference, especially Freakshow by Silverchair

[kylen]

Originally posted by rydell
Brendan O'brien has many great albums for reference:

Pearl Jam- "Yield"
Stone Temple Pilots- "Tiny Music"
Bruce Springsteen- "Devils and Dust"


re 'Devils and Dust' - I just opened the jacket and Mr. Springsteen personally thanks Brendan O'Brian (mix) for "...bringing out the best in my music." But dig this - he later on thanks the mastering engineer Bob Ludwig ..."And thanks to our long time mastering genius, Bob "the manic compressor" Ludwig, who always adds something special to our music." How often do you see the mastering engineer getting noticed! Cool! :cool:

I just stumbled into a good reference CD by accident - I was supposed to pick up Ben Folds but I got Ben Harper instead - a very nice mistake for finding a great mix & balance!

Ben Harper and the blind boys of alabama "There Will be a Light" mixed by jimmy hoyson (no mastering credits!!!).
http://www.benharper.net/?page=music&sub_page=detail&id=145

[philbo]

I'm a little late entering this discussion, but I'll add my 2 cents anyway:

"Acoustic" music:

Donald Fagen - The Nightfly -- The quintessential reference album for digital mixes.

Out of the Grey - the 'Out of the Grey' album - - exceptional for it's clarity and great mix.

Chesky Records - Jazz Sampler and Audiophile Test CD - - a wonderful example of the 'right way' to record small acoustic groups.
Also, the LEDR test track can be really handy if you are doing work somewhere out of your home base - it tells you a lot about the imaging capability of the monitors you're using. See this old Bob Katz article about it if you're interested: http://stereophile.com/features/772/

Phil Keaggy - The Master and The Musician

For more electric music:

Utopia - the 'Utopia' album (Todd Rundgren)

Yes - Fragile

Joe Walsh - But Seriously Folks

I could easily come up with probably a dozen more, but these spring to mind immediately....