hey Anderton - what's your take on the DIY resurgence

[MorePaul]

I mean, yeah each gen goes through some of it -- but it seems like in the past 1/2 decade it's picked back up a bit

Oddly, this time around "home built" guys seem to spring into "boutique" cottage operations about a month after buying a soldering iron (I mean sure, we all may have sold a pal a box or built one for somebody who didn't have electronics chops, but that's a different beast)...which seems a change

so anyway, what are your thoughts (no, I don't men to drag you into a mire of the past - maybe we can avoid that)

[Mr. Donovan]

I think that the internet has helped a lot with the DIY resurgence.

There are some people who keep telling me that computers can do anything that effects boxes can and that stomp boxes are obsolete, but I really disagree with this statement. Rather than replacing stomp boxes, I think computers and the internet have made it easier to find schematics, buy parts, and to sell effects online.

I just finished my first year of studying electronics at my local community college. I’ve built a couple effects. A friend of mine offered me $100 to build him a treble booster. I really need to get that built soon.

I think there might be more money in the amplifier repair business. There’s a guy in Des Moines who makes a lot of money repairing tube amp heads, and he has a two month backlog of work. He graduated from the same electronics program that I am going to now. I think it’s a good idea to get some formal education before working with high voltage tube amps, because there is enough electricity flowing to kill somebody.

Low voltage things like effects boxes are much safer. I love what you said about guys springing into “boutique” cottage operations about a month after buying their first soldering iron. LOL
:D

[phaeton]

I'm curious about how y'all will answer.

I was first interested in electronics in the mid-late 80s in Jr. High, but i didn't have any resources to make anything out of it till about 1992. I bought stuff from Radio Shack (back when it was still cool) and built some stuff. Had some fun. Made a couple of pedals, one of which actually worked. Problem was, i was in a vaccum. I wanted to make amps and effects, but all the books i could churn up were about computers and robots. I wrote to a retired Electronics Engineering professor asking for a little direction and advice and he told me that trying to add distortion into an audio circuit was spitting in the face of 70 years of technological advancement, and that using inefficient, obsolete, and expensive vaccum tubes when transistors were available was pure insanity. He didn't slow me down, but eventually all the other problems did.

About a year ago I opened up my TS-10 to see how feasible resoldering its jacks would be, and I kinda got bit again. So i figured I'd take quick peek to see what the DIY front was all about.

OMGWTFBBQ the Internet. :eek:

Schematics, how-tos, parts suppliers, kits, forums, people reaching out and holding your hand along the way.

I haven't been able to shake it since. Everything that was such an uphill battle so many years ago is practically set at your feet today. If you want to do it, there's no excuse anymore.

I think that there are a lot of people who get encouraged into it further because they see fun-coloured Fulltone and Zvex effects going for hundreds of dollars per unit. It looks like a lot of fun to build effects (well, it is) but i think a lot of folks are getting starry-eyed about being an equipment manufacturer. I'll admit it, i went through that phase too. After doing some stuff and sourcing parts and talking with folks in the old SSS and things, it turns out that it's something that would require the right person with the right motivations andability to make a really nice-looking finished product. I could be that person myself, but I bet there are lots that couldn't keep it up, and I sometimes wonder how *long* I could keep it up if i tried. A year? Two years?

Then there's the competition. Like said. Everyone's cloning pedals these days and asking too much for them. It's become such a thing that now pedal manufacturers are re-issuing their old pedals. Take a look at Ibanez's lineup these days. They've even contracted someone to start making the JRC4558 again. You can't compete with THAT.

I'd like to build a few useable parts here and there and maybe sell a few to offset the costs of my parts purchases and whatnot. Just to perpetuate my hobby.

We'll see how it goes.

(my $0.02)

[thankyou]

Bluestrat, yoohoo, calling Mr. Bluestrat. He's a young(er) guy who has built/rebuilt some really interesting stuff. I checked his site some time ago and got inspired to try once again to rehab my first amp - a Silvertone 1484. I think he mentioned using 6V6's instead of 6L6's in a similar amp he rebuilt for a bass head. I'm not savvy enough to really dive into mods, but I'd really like to hear that tube trem again.

tHANKyou

[phaeton]

Bluestrat is a badass....

Ever listen to those amps he built? :eek:

[the otter]

I had to tune up an SH-101 a few years ago and when I opened it... someting crazy happened, I wanted to start modding it (I didn't). I looked some info on SH-101 mods and got nervous about ruining it...so I started ripping toys apart, I evolved (very little) from there. I bought some books and looked up a ton of info on the net... and suddenly, it wasn't fun anymore.

I still want to do some stuff, but in general, it feels like a waste of time (for me).

I'm thinking about getting another synth for modding purposes, so who knows?

[Marcus Dahl]

You guys are all right. I've been doing this for 4 years. It's not for everyone. There is a lot to it, but if you have good people skills, organization, don't mind doing the same thing over and over again, and skills to make a good looking finished product, then you can do it. Oh and I forgot. Soldering skills and basic tools like a drill press and being able to measure. I enjoy building effects, but at this stage in the game it's not my main income.

[phaeton]

Definately, Marcus...

If you're doing it for fun, go right ahead. If you're doing it to make money, you're probably going to be sorely dissapointed..... Lots of stuff like that, and as long as you understand it you're ok.

P.S. i need a drill press :(

It's not a matter of affording one, it's a matter of having the place to put it.

[Anderton]

Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind. But I thought about it...hadn't revised Electronic Projects for Musicians forever...it was time to start over using today's parts, today's techniques. Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!

[phaeton]

Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!


D'oh!

And i just spent the last couple of weeks researching and hunting down replacements and re-pinning ICs (the CLM6000 Optoisolator being the last one to find)....

Sorry to hear you had to leave everything behind :(

Oh well... Here's to the future!

[Mr. Donovan]

Originally posted by phaeton
If you're doing it to make money, you're probably going to be sorely dissapointed

http://justadventure.com/reviews/Pirates_of_the_Caribbean/gary%20coleman.jpgWhatchoo talkin bout?

The amplifier repairman in Des Moines that I mentioned charges $65 an hour for his services, and he just has a 2 year associates degree.

I met a Electrial Engineer who told me that his fee is $125 an hour. But I bet he has a master's degree. It's like a lot of things, the longer you stay in school, the more money you can make.

The musical electronics business may be tiny compared to the electronics field as a whole. But the skills learned in pursuing musical electronics can be transfered to other areas of electronics.

I started on this path by reading Craig Anderton's books and if I end up working in a non-music area of electronics I won't be the only one who got his start by reading Electronic Projects for Musicians. A reviewer for EPFM on Amazon said that he became an electrical engineer after reading EPFM.

I don't want to sound like I'm some objectivist who cares only about money. Actually, before I started going to school for electronics, I was a biology and psychology major who wanted to get a PhD in neuroscience. After that didn't work out I decided that instead I could make a lot of money and donate it to scientific research. I'm not sure if it will still be to neuroscience though. Lately I have become more interested in alternative energy sources like bio-diesel and solar power. So maybe I could use my electronic skills to persue sustainable energy sources.

In conclusion, it's possible to make a lot of money in the electronics field. But if you want to do it just for the love, that's ok too.

[rog951]

Originally posted by Mr. Donovan


>>>The musical electronics business may be tiny compared to the electronics field as a whole. But the skills learned in pursuing musical electronics can be transfered to other areas of electronics<<<

My current "career path" as a printed circuit designer sprouted from being a musical electronics hobbyist. Having read EPFM and having built bunches of pedals and preamps 'n' stuff gave me the background I needed. Professionally, I started off really green and worked for cheap, but I learned a ton and advanced over the years and now make a fairly decent wage doing this. The only problem is I haven't been able to do any audio stuff really (not for money anyway). The companies I've worked for haven't been in the audio field. Got to play with lots of lasers though! My current employer is in the wireless arena and I did just get to design a wireless (bluetooth) headset module and basestation. So I got to play with Sennheiser mic/headsets and Neutrik 5-pin XLR connecors. Getting closer! :)

What's really weird is that being obsessed with the guitar during college is probably the main reason I didn't finish my EE degree (although there were a few more hedonistic reasons too I'm sure!). The music jones giveth and hath taken away...

[offramp]

Originally posted by Anderton
Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind. But I thought about it...hadn't revised Electronic Projects for Musicians forever...it was time to start over using today's parts, today's techniques. Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!

See, now...I could just kill you, leaving all those parts behind. I'd've at least driven down there some weekend and taken them off your hands for you.

Santa Fe, huh? At least your stuff will dry out, now.:D

[MorePaul]

Cool - I guess my question though is more what you think about the resurgence of the DIY thing as opposed to the DIY thing itself.

The hobby enjoyment factor has kina-sorta been the same for decades the comments aboe are great, but a lot of thm don't differ so much from the electronics hobbyist of years ago), but how do you think it plays out these days in terms of things like (just a couple of examples)

-the "oh, I can just buy it" market has changed..making what I want less/more avail
-there is the alternative of homebrew DSP
-VLSI, suface mount, EOL of certain components, etc has changed the activity how?
-the good bad) old days vs the modern

stuff like that

[BLAblablah]

Originally posted by Anderton
Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind.

Hope you kept your DA7!
Barry

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Anderton
Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind. But I thought about it...hadn't revised Electronic Projects for Musicians forever...it was time to start over using today's parts, today's techniques. Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!

ah, sometimes that sort of "break" can be jus the thing to clar the cobwebs

I hope the fesh place (new house or old?) is bringing in some fresh ar to the old perspective, 'tude, chi, whatever...just spring cleaning for the soul

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by MorePaul
Cool - I guess my question though is more what you think about the resurgence of the DIY thing as opposed to the DIY thing itself.

The hobby enjoyment factor has kina-sorta been the same for decades the comments aboe are great, but a lot of thm don't differ so much from the electronics hobbyist of years ago), but how do you think it plays out these days in terms of things like (just a couple of examples)

-the "oh, I can just buy it" market has changed..making what I want less/more avail
-there is the alternative of homebrew DSP
-VLSI, suface mount, EOL of certain components, etc has changed the activity how?
-the good bad) old days vs the modern

stuff like that

The fact is there will always be people who enjoy understanding how things work. Most of these people become engineers or technicians of one sort or another, and they feed their thirst for knowledge by tearing things apart and putting them back together. Many times with improvements. ;)

These are the kids who are model builders, electronics tinkerers, etc. The only reason music electronics are the projects of choice are because they or their close friends are musicians. They're inspired to see what they can do to recreate or improve the gear they or their friends use.

The payoff is in creation. It's another example of the journey being as important, or even moreso, than the destination.

You could say the same thing of woodworkers. Sure, you could buy a jewelry box off the shelf for your wife. Or, you could pour your heart and soul into building it yourself. Which do you think will be more appreciated, especially over time?

Other than that, Mr. Donovan hit it on the head. The internet.

Previous generations of DIY'ers had to put some serious time into research in order to build their own projects. DIY electronics were available, but how many concentrated on guitar pre's and effects? For those of some interest, but little determination, research is where they let interest wane in DIY projects. Only the most determined folks pressed on. With the internet, you can get just about any available DIY info in your hands in seconds. I firmly believe this has exponentially increased the number of DIY'ers in areas that were not represented on TV, prior to the spread of the internet. (Let's face it, DIY woodworking tv shows have been on for decades. So have DIY car shows, but to a lesser extent.)

[phaeton]

Franky says:
In conclusion, it's possible to make a lot of money in the electronics field. But if you want to do it just for the love, that's ok too.

Right! I wasn't talking about being a full-blown Electronics Engineer. There is plenty of reason to get into that field (and plenty of reasons why I should get into that field....

I was talking about the OP's mention of all the guys these days who pick up a soldering iron for the first time and then within a few weeks decide that they're going to get rich building 'botique clone' pedals one at a time. You could have a lot of fun, learn a lot of stuff, and probably sell a few pedals here and there, but doing that to sustain oneself financially will be a hard road. You can't clone a TS-808 with the same margins and brand recognition that Ibanez is reissuing them for, for example.

:D

(Btw i've got an ignorant interest in things like biodiesel, solar energy and thermoacoustic engines as an energy source too. It's neat stuff and it'll become really pertinent in the near future)

Oh yeah, and what offramp said about pitching all the parts and gear....

[fantasticsound]

OT - Hey phaeton, an acquaintance of mine has a show on Spike TV called "Trucks!" I don't have cable, so I hadn't seen it. He sent a promo pack to my work that included an episode that dealt entirely with biodiesel. After Lee mentioned it on a thread at SSS, I was thrilled to see exactly what is involved in making your own. He claims the cost per gallon (after buying the apparatus) is about 70 cents per gallon! :eek: Aye, caramba!

[MorePaul]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fantasticsound


The fact is there will always be people who enjoy understanding how things work. Most of these people become engineers or technicians of one sort or another, and they feed their thirst for knowledge by tearing things apart and putting them back together. Many times with improvements. ;)


definitely, DIY has certainly always been around - I guess you could say it was "thoe original" before the industrial revolution, before division of labour, etc


You could say the same thing of woodworkers. Sure, you could buy a jewelry box off the shelf for your wife. Or, you could pour your heart and soul into building it yourself. Which do you think will be more appreciated, especially over time?


I guess it sort of depends, yes the self-built has the emotional attachment, but then again - I think everyone has had a heathkit / homebrew scrap heap (I know I did ;) ).
and it did seem post 70s that the "manufactured" aesthetic v the "homebuilt" aesthetic sort of took back over
and in a lot of cases, the home--built wasn't all that different from the commercial (I mean you look at old DOD units like thoe rack delays and the PCB didn't have a solder mark or anything, looks like a "brew")





Other than that, Mr. Donovan hit it on the head. The internet.

Previous generations of DIY'ers had to put some serious time into research in order to build their own projects.


I think we had to put time into just information availability at all, but at the same time the information was consolidated differently...in print.
The electronics rags have definitely taken a beating over the last couple of decades (ugh, look how much they've changed names/ownership)


DIY electronics were available, but how many concentrated on guitar pre's and effects?

In the 70s at least, I remember a lot of it...The rags usually carried a number of audio articles (it's a major gripe of people these days that they are too microcontrol/robotics oriented).

I think the technology was at a point where there were some mature, useful resources for audio electronics (Audio specific or at least audio friendlycircuit integration, etc) that were still accessible to the home builder (through hole, externally trimmable)

That was thatpoint when "no user servicable parts inside" was actually there b/c people were used to opening the back . I mean, remember when every hardware store had a tube tester



At that time, I'd tend to class hobbyist guys into
1) radio guys
2) audio guys
3) digital guys

3 wasn't super mature yet, it was coming, but the tractible projects seemed to be less-than-stellar

1 and 2 always had crosstalk (as the radio guys needed to do signal conditioning anyway, and a lot of the radio guys were audiophiles/musicians as well)
oddly, even within 2 there was crosstalk between hi-fi and instrument apps (shi-fi with reverb, some of em even had instrument inputs! :eek: )
but yeah, at least from my recollection audio was actually a big part of the scene those days (I think the complexity was reasonable, the results were good, you didn't have the sensitivities of RF, robotics still needed a decade and a half to mature) and, like today, every geek had a guitar ;) so audio was in a good spot at the time as far as projects

SO I guess from my perspective (which certainly isn't the only one or a right one) there seemed to be decently rich music DIY in the 70s maybe into the early 80s with sort of a drop off in later 80s/ early 90s (still a lot of legacy, but with MIDI, the move to LSI, the digital/microcontrol divide for anlog guys, that sort of thing)
not to say it was ever gone (stuff rarely is), but it did seem to me to go underground a little more

[Marcus Dahl]

Originally posted by phaeton
Definately, Marcus...

If you're doing it for fun, go right ahead. If you're doing it to make money, you're probably going to be sorely dissapointed..... Lots of stuff like that, and as long as you understand it you're ok.

P.S. i need a drill press :(

It's not a matter of affording one, it's a matter of having the place to put it.

You hit it on the head. I've already seen a couple of guys go under in the last 4 years of doing this. Partially they were in it for the money and didn't take care of their customers.

You can get a cool bench top drill press. They take up little room and would do the job needed for DIY pedal deal. I got mine a Tractor Supply for around $45, but they can be found at Lowes, Home Depot, and Sears for like $75 and up.

[WFTurner]

I mean, remember when every hardware store had a tube tester

Yes and that was definately awhile back.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by WFTurner


Yes and that was definately awhile back.

:( don't make me feel old ;)

but yeah, at that time, user service was kind of part of the deal for that level of electronic tech

[fantasticsound]

My point about music is that you didn't see all kinds of people displaying homebrew, guitar amps many places. Sure, if you were entrenched in the circles that did those things you'd see it. But with the net, even the most casual enthusiast can find whole libraries of information, available at their fingertips at the touch of a few computer keys.

How many issues of a DIY magazine would you have to buy to get even a tiny fraction of what can be gleaned on the net in .0000128 of a second? ;)

[MorePaul]

oh, the web has definitely made research of all kinds much easier, quicker, etc (ugh,including poor information :( )


just like many many people hav bought craigs book and never (or abortively) done the projects, the same may be true of dropping by all the various DIY forums

the way information was disseminated was just different, but even in "gasp" my day - the concept of the archive wasn't exactly new...didn't alexandria have that too ;)
There was also a pretty cool resource back in the day...your local TV repaiment
"ring modulator? trying to raise your talk power huh, yeah those carriers will suck up the watts! wha...you want to run your guitar through it...OK"


like any other hobby (including guitar) , there was/is that synergy between the activity andthe research...you do a little, you ask a little, you learn who to ask where to ask, what to ask

those sorts of things. My pint there isn't that the web doesn't impact things, but that the patterns might not be all that different, we just worked a little slower and over the mail/ham radio,ec

I think the "displaying" may be a little different as well, we didn't for instance, have an internet to display things on.
but even things like the Herzog, Magic Dingus box, Mike Odlfield's little woodden box were brews

[Ed A.]

Originally posted by Mr. Donovan


http://justadventure.com/reviews/Pirates_of_the_Caribbean/gary%20coleman.jpgWhatchoo talkin bout?

The amplifier repairman in Des Moines that I mentioned charges $65 an hour for his services, and he just has a 2 year associates degree.



Yeah, but how many hours does he charge in a week, 5 maybe? $325 isn't too much for a week's work. I'll bet there are some weeks where he has no customers.

[Deef]

Originally posted by fantasticsound
OT - Hey phaeton, an acquaintance of mine has a show on Spike TV called "Trucks!" I don't have cable, so I hadn't seen it. He sent a promo pack to my work that included an episode that dealt entirely with biodiesel. After Lee mentioned it on a thread at SSS, I was thrilled to see exactly what is involved in making your own. He claims the cost per gallon (after buying the apparatus) is about 70 cents per gallon! :eek: Aye, caramba!


Anybody here subscribe to Make (http://www.makezine.com/)?

It applies the DIY approach to everything.

Volume 3 (the latest) has an article on how to make your own biodiesel. And, uh, cold fusion, too.

Volume 2 has an article on restoring old transistor amps.

Deef

[Mr. Donovan]

Hi Guys! I hope I didn’t go off on too much of a rant. I think there’s been a lot of great discussion on this thread.

Ed A, are you familiar with Analog Man guitar effects?
http://www.analogman.com/
They’re in Connecticut.

And in New York, specifically in Brooklyn, it seems like there are a lot of effects makers. Like Oliver Ackermann at Death By Audio (I know it’s a menacing name, but I’m not the one who chose it)
http://killerrockandroll.com/deathbyaudio/about.html

The parts and kits supplier Small Bear Electronics is in Brooklyn, NY.
http://www.smallbearelec.com/

Electro-Harmonix founder Mike Matthews is from Brooklyn. I’m not sure if is business is still based there.
http://www.newsensor.com/

Regarding the amp repairman is Des Moines, I recently heard he has a 2 month backlog of work to do. So he is very busy. It’s been a while since I’ve stopped by his shop, but the last time I was there he had a large pile of amps to repair. I bet that’s a common sight at his shop.

Deef, I’ll definitely read that biodiesel article. Thanks for the info. I heard that biodiesel cars smell like French fries.

I wish I could say more, but I’ve got to get some sleep. I think all of you are awesome!
:cool:

[phaeton]

Deef

Thanks for the reference to MakeZine...

What an awesome publication!

[protues9]

Well i'll tell ya... the internet does make it easy with little or almost no overhead. Coming from a variety of backgrounds myself, halloween, sci fi, music ect.. there are tons and tons of DIY home brew websites out there. About .0001% offer legit and worthy products.

The people behind most of these things are crude, vile people. They refuse to do legitmate work (circle K for instance), steal their ideas, back stab ect. At one time I was selling custom made halloween CDs with a guy who had a website. We ended up doing about 4 times the volume we had planned on and I had put through a few emergency orders at a CD duplication business. Well, this guy help up several orders that were worth 1 - 2k for a 10$ CD. The companies got pissed with him and yanked their accounts. He blamed me, since I couldnt keep up with demand, said quite a few choice words (well several hundread actually in a ew emails) and turns out he had another guy he was having work for him on the side that was going to produce knock offs of my CDs for cheaper.

Well, any good sales person would have shipped the order without the CDs and offered a refund, discount or a few freebies until it was avabile for backorder. He wasn't.

You may say that just may be one bad experience, but i've got about 10 years in the home brew field which i've quit other than for personal use only.. heh heh. I just couldnt take being in the same circles with people that went to halloween trade shows to spy on other peoples prodcuts and to do such things as make direct casts and molds from various props and then sell resin casts of them or things like that.

To come back to the music side, why should you pay 800 - 1000$ for a cloned TB303 which was made off of rolands repair shcematics (which doesn't strike anyone as being illegal?) when you could buy the real thing for 800-1,200?

You can do what you like.. i just have a hard time giving cash to people that have ripped off their ideas and want to take the easy way out of life. Dont get me wrong, someone who offers a service or product made up by hobbyists for hobbyists (or musicians or what ever) is a great thing. Without them , we'd be mising tons of great things that other wise wouldnt be created because the market is too niche.

And I read make magazine too. I welcome the trend back to home brew hobbies. Somewhere in the course of the late 80's and 90's it dissapperaed when consumer culture went high tech. i used to be part of quite a few hands on type hobby clubs when i was a kid and I think youth today really could use and is missing out on the experiece. heh.. I still think sitting around a table cracking jokes with your buddies playing D&D is way more fun then sitting in your living room alone playing socom online. Kids today are missing out on the experience of real friends and are trading them for a mutual interest. i could go on.. but i'm glad it's coming back

[Ed A.]

Originally posted by Mr. Donovan

Ed A, are you familiar with Analog Man guitar effects?
http://www.analogman.com/
They’re in Connecticut.



I know where that is in Danbury. I'm not familiar with their pedals, but they do seem to have a really distinctive DIY look from the photos.

[phaeton]

I know where that is in Danbury. I'm not familiar with their pedals, but they do seem to have a really distinctive DIY look from the photos.

I've seen pics of the inside of some Analogman pedals. They look pretty nice- silkscreened and etched PCB, perfect solder joints, good layout and well-thought out. All the stuff that separates the men from the boys and the serious guys from the hacks. And while there's nothing wrong with building stuff just for the sake of building it and enjoying it *this* is the sort of attention to detail you've gotta have if you want to build stuff to sell. It has to be top notch and perfect throughout.

But hey, fortunately for home stuff you can go right on ahead and mount stompbox circuits in PVC, stuff theremins in soap dishes or build guitar amplifiers out of Rubbermaid(tm) tubs... (http://home.mia.net/~phaeton/Anklebiter/amp_front.jpg)

In a way it's kind of fun to do things without that sort of 'need for professionalism' hanging over your head. Sure, you still want to make your projects as good as they can be, but it's also nice to have the boundless creativity to build something as beautiful or hideous as you want.

protues9
I've never really known a world without a 'DIY' perspective. All my existence i've been the sort to packrat stuff and build bizarre and useless contraptions out of them. I always enjoy sharing my stuff and seeing other people's stuff, but up until the WWW seeing anyone else doing this sort of thing was really really rare for me. But now i think that the internet will bring DIY types together a lot, and that will be good.

:D

(sorry to ramble again)

[protues9]

Oh i havent either. In fact my 3 year old son is getting into the habbit! he already keeps talking about a few ideas I had for stuff for halloween. I just noticed it sort of died in the late 80s and 90's and made a comeback with computer case customizing. Of course, keep in mind that were just in 80's part 2 right now and given with kids that emulate what their parents did when they were younger, it may not last too long! ha ha. I'm curious to see how long it hangs about.

And actually www.hackaday.com is a much better site than make zine, which seems to discuss the same topics after hackaday gets them (which is updated daily). check it out!

[phaeton]

Hack a day is cool too! A little warezy maybe, but still cool.

Thanks for the link!

[Scodiddly]

As somebody who's found himself hanging out the boutique sign, I can definitely say that the Internet has made a huge difference. I've been fixing and soldering and such since I was a kid, but maybe a two years ago I started fooling around with microphones, specifically the little Panasonic condensor capsules and the "TapeOp $20 omni" article. Then I started hanging out on a forum here and there, and subscribing to a micbuilding email list. Then somebody on the email list managed to contact one of those Chinese mic factories and arrange a group buy of more professional capsules... and by last fall I found myself with something worthy of the term "product".

Now from there to actually selling stuff is another big step, and that's where the herd gets culled, you know? I already had a little business doing repairs, so I had some sense of how to handle money, sales tax, inventory, customer relations, etc. Having worked in the past for a tiny little PA speaker company taught me a lot of that stuff too. But you have to have the ethic that you're going to be a professional, that everything you sell is going to be 100% solid, and that all your customers will be happy customers.

Overall I'd say that I'm still doing this because I love doing this, not because I'm expecting a lot of money. I have managed to make enough money to break even and a bit beyord on the original "hobby" of building mics. And if I keep at it and my customers brag enough to their friends maybe I'll be able to make a living at it. But I'm not turning away repair jobs or other work at this point.

[MorePaul]

so anyone here moved over to the DSP world?

I know there are a few dev guys on the keyboard forum

[philbo]

Originally posted by Anderton
Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind. But I thought about it...hadn't revised Electronic Projects for Musicians forever...it was time to start over using today's parts, today's techniques. Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!

Hey, Craig, if you follow up on this idea, take a look at THAT Corp. - they make some really awesome building block chips:
http://thatcorp.com/icprod.html

(High dynamic range / low noise Preamps, dynamics processors, VCAs and the like.)

[Anderton]

Indeed, the THAT stuff is cool and it looks like Analog Devices isn't slacking off either...maybe it is time for EPFM 2006.

[Mark Hammer]

Is it time for an EPFM III? Dear lord, yes. With the death of just about every domestic hobby electronics magazine, the virtual departure of Thomas Henry and Jules Rykebusch from the scene, the apparent non-existence of Nicholas Boscorelli, and the incredible change in materials, components and construction techniques available to the hobbyist, yer damn right it's time.

When the last edition came out, the world of ICs was different. The availability of multi-pole stompswitches was different, press-n-peel was but a mere glimmer in someone's eye, layout software was only for big ticket commercial production houses, 16mm pots (and smaller) were special order items available for only manufacturers, 3080 OTAs could actually be bought, the 3PDT stompswitch did not exist, and Hammond chassis were known and available to only a few.

From a marketing stance, the question is whether, with the plethora of resources available electronically (such as the diystompboxforum), there is sufficient need for such a book. IN one sense, the answer is a sort of "No", because of the plethora of online resources, and the ridiculously low prices that some gear can be had for these days (the new Danelectro distortion pedals are cheaper than anything Mike Matthews could *ever* offer, and when you convert 1981 dollars to 2005 dollars...well, why build?). On the other hand, having a huge warehouse of bits and pieces here and there scattered over the electronic planet is not the same as having an *integrated* book.

Certainly one of the older Anderton books I appreciated, even years after its publication, was the "Guitar Gadgets" book. One of the things it did nicely was provide a systems approach to effects, which I personally found useful in guiding my thinking. The types of features and effects categories that have emerged since that time are not dramatically larger, but large enough to warrant some sort of restatement.

Here's an idea that might expedite production of such a book. How about an editted book with chapters by different people? My model here is something like Ballou's Audio Cyclopedia. RG Keen has a fabulous book on PCB layout for musical effects. A distillation of that would make a great chapter. Maybe Robert Keeley could contribute a chapter on modding commercial effects. Jack Orman has a number of interesting technical explanations and voyages on his site. Extending the life of Thomas Henry's mini-books on using certain (still available) chips like the NE570 and OTAs would be a community service. John Simonton's views on interfacing non-synth instruments with analog synths would be worth the price of admission. Kevin O'Connor has to have something to say. Certainly some of the folks in the boo-teek business have to have something to say about packaging challenges and best practices. What about a chapter on adapting/designing effects for bass, acoustic instruments, keyboards, voice? And how DO us mere mortals work those SMT chips into our projects? And though it may be reaching for the moon, we absolutely need to hear something from Bob Moog while we are still blessed with his presence.

In short, what we need is not necessarily an EPFM III but an Audio Cyclopedia of FX. A vast survey of design, fabrication, and packaging techniques, materials and tools available or use, how to integrate design and packaging with use context (e.g., studio vs hobbyist vs gigging musician), a pedal-oriented semiconductor data library (on CD of course).

On the diystompboxforum, the question intermittently comes up once or twice a year "I'm a newbie, and was wondering what books you folks would recommend?". Invariably, all fingers point to EPFM (and Horowitz and Hill), but as time marches on it becomes harder to do so. Not because the book was not a lifesaver at the time, but because it addressed 90% of the things we had to think about at the time of its publication, and only 10% of such concerns now. There is so much more known and so much more to think about.

So, the short answer is that simply another EPFM with a fuzz, phaser and compressor using 2005 chips might be of interest to some. A one-stop-shopping encyclopedia of effects-related knowledge in tandem with some canned designs would be absolute killer - the book that EVERYONE would unhesitatingly recommend.

There. Persuasion enough? ;)

Oh, and thanks for the thank-you letter you sent me some 20 years ago, Craig. I had an article in DEVICE, way back when, and you popped me a note shortly after moving on to EM to offer a belated thanks. I still hav that letter somewhere.:)

[DRHDRH]

Originally posted by Anderton
Indeed, the THAT stuff is cool and it looks like Analog Devices isn't slacking off either...maybe it is time for EPFM 2006.


Way back, I believe I was in college and bought the original EPFM. I lost it in one of my moves, if you ever came out with an update, I would buy it immediately.


DRHDRH

[Robert Keeley]

Thanks Mark for the mention! Great to see you here! I would be honored to give a look into the modding business. With 18 people now at Keeley Electronics....:eek: It is WAY more than a simple EE like me would have ever imagined. I think I could provide a look into maintaining customer service over periods of time and how to limit what you do as much as how to control growth. Not that I've managed any of that, just that I've given it a good try!
rk

[Mark Hammer]

My pleasure, Bob.

I think one of the things that people would like to learn is what one might call the "decision-making process" when it comes to after-market mods. As I've commented in other places previously, it's not like these commercial pedals are pieces of crap. Indeed, the very reason you can HAVE 18 people on the Keeley payroll is because a lot of folks have bought these pedals, like just *about* everything, but want just a little more ketchup ont heir fries, just a little more syrup on their pancakes, and just a little more stuffing with their turkey. Sometimes that involves a sort of universal "fix" to a circuit that was initially well-conceived, but j-u-s-t didn't go the whole distance. Sometimes that involves custom solutions for players with specific circumstantial needs.

So, how DOES one go about examining a commercial product for aspects that are capable of being "rehabilitated" or hotrodded? Certainly, it is not always the same default strategy of yanking out the op-amps and replacing them with JRC4558DD's :rolleyes: , or just sticking in a bigger value cap on the input. It is the "zen" of how all the parts and circuit fragments fit together, the impact of things upstream on things downstream (or is it the opposite? I always get those two confused:o ).

It's not just after-market mods, that prompts this query. It applies similarly to back-to-the-drawing-board redesigns. I recently threw together a bass fuzz (http://ampage.org/hammer/files/Gruntbox.zip) just because the mood struck me. It sounded alright, but not...perfect. Okay, so how do I go about a rethink of this project and make it behave as conceived? *THAT'S* the thought process I'm interested in assisting others acquiring. Certainly the list of possible mods that became part of EPFM II helped to facilitate that for myself, because it provided choice-points and rationales for those choice-points.

Now that players have access to and knowledge of so much stuff, both in-production and vintage, the desire to turn sows' ears into silk purses, or to score ones self vintage pedal X at low cost by simply changing a few tactical components in pedal Y is that much stronger. The belief that it could be better, or louder, or more intense, or more surprising, or just more unique, permeates the pedal universe, and somehow, swapping a cap seems just that much more satisfying than spending a couple of hours with Pro-Tools, tweaking the tone. :D

[phaeton]

Okay, so how do I go about a rethink of this project and make it behave as conceived? *THAT'S* the thought process I'm interested in assisting others acquiring.

Fwiw that's just the sort of thing i'm looking for- I can usually figure out how stuff works, but i'm not quite there yet on the "for result X change the value of Y to [number]" stuff. EPFM has a few mentions of this but i'm sure there is so much more to do. There is lots of really dry straight-ahead electronics study material that explains what happens to current and voltage oscillations when you swap capacitors or change transistor bias, but very little of it describes it in the terms of an audio or musical application.

There is some stuff out there but it's few and far between. Lot easier than about 10-15 years go, tho. Seems like "music electronics" is almost its own science apart from just "electronics". Same rules, same theory and same parts, but different applications, goals and expectations- sometimes "music electronics" circuits are designed to encourage the very same things that the usual electronics folks are trying to suppress in their circuits, and verse vica....

It's still fun though!

And i toadilly agree that EPFM is a great book but it's about time for a revision. Very little wrong with the circuits themselves other than they use a lot of opamps that are either obsolete or have been replaced by cheaper, better performers.

[Gabriel E.]

Great thread.

I am one of those "home built" guys starting a "boutique" cottage operation about a month after buying a soldering iron.

Actually, it's been 16 or 17 years since I first bought a soldering iron as a teenager. I messed around with guitar circuits for years before getting into tube amps 5 years ago.

I don't have any formal training but I'm really good at figuring out how stuff works and I've done a lot of reading.

As of right now, I'm finishing a prototype amplifier and I just started an LLC. I should have a product for sale by early 2006.

I don't expect to get rich doing this but I know how to run a profitable business and I figure if I'm gonna bust my ass, it may as well be doing something I love.

There are a couple of things going on here:

1) The internet. Research is easy. Access to parts and services vendors is easy. Communication with others who share your interest is easy. Most importantly, access to potential customers is easy (or at least easier).

In the past there were magazines and books but those represented a one-way vertical movement of information. Now information moves horizontally as well.

2) Because of #1, musicians are a lot more knowledgeable and picky about their gear. There are a lot more niches than there used to be. Or maybe the niches always existed but now they're easier to recognize.

[phaeton]

As of right now, I'm finishing a prototype amplifier and I just started an LLC. I should have a product for sale by early 2006.


Cool. Please spam my PM box when you release this. I'm curious.

[C. Bradley]

Originally posted by phaeton
Bluestrat is a badass....

Ever listen to those amps he built? :eek: First time I've ever been accused of that..... :D I just read and tinker and find out what works and what doesn't.

I couldn't get the Bluestrat moniker on here. :(

I do the DIY thing for two main reasons:

1) I'm cheap :D
2) I like to experiment and have unique items that I made myself.

I've thought about making pedals for money, but I work a full-time job and don't believe that I want to spend all of my spare time fitting effects into enclosures and soldering components onto boards. Amplifiers would be easier for me, but I don't want to have the legal issues involved if some dip-shit opens up the chassis and sticks his fingers on the connections to the big blue cylinders. :rolleyes:

If I do anything, I'll write a book with several projects. I started doing just that, but I've stalled.

[Anderton]

And i toadilly agree that EPFM is a great book but it's about time for a revision. Very little wrong with the circuits themselves other than they use a lot of opamps that are either obsolete or have been replaced by cheaper, better performers.

I'd be the first to agree. The problem is I don't really have a lab setup any more, and no real way to come up with the board prototypes and such. One of these days...

[phaeton]

I'd be the first to agree. The problem is I don't really have a lab setup any more, and no real way to come up with the board prototypes and such. One of these days...

Yeah i know ;) Such is life! That's why I thought maybe a collaborative effort would be the ticket, but it's your book and your baby so it's your call :D

I had a nice little setup, myself, but a somewhat unexpected move has upheaved all that. I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel now though...

First time I've ever been accused of that..... I just read and tinker and find out what works and what doesn't.


You know which amp I'm talking about :D Sorry bout the "bluestrat" moniker not being available, but welcome over!

(Dumb) question for Craig or whomever- Looks like i'll be moving in with the gf soon. She's got a couple of birds- a cherry-headed conure and something else (I'm not really a bird person, sorry). Anyways, does this automatically mean "no soldering in the house"? :(

[MorePaul]

Just in a different room (door closed) with evacuative ventillation - though that's good for you too

The biggest problem I found is that hey can be curious and like to pull all the pretty colored wires out of a breadboard.
Seriously, they like to manipulate things...esp "interesting" things that their friends (you) are interested in
I used to go through drafting pucks decently regularly b/c of a Blue front Amazon and a coackatiel

[phaeton]

Just in a different room (door closed) with evacuative ventillation - though that's good for you too

The image is huge so i'll just post the link to it:

http://home.mia.net/~phaeton/Anklebiter/fumefan.jpg

That's my makeshift fumefan. I actually drew up a design for a real, honest to goodness evacuative ventilation system that would blow the fumes outside, i just never built it. It's on the docket though, i think on page 72 :rolleyes:

The missus says that we can't use teflon pans or let anyone smoke in the house. Although birds are little shells of pure evil and they hateses me forever, i don't want to make them sick or miserable :(

The biggest problem I found is that hey can be curious and like to pull all the pretty colored wires out of a breadboard.

I don't know how if they'll get out much, at least not for awhile. They're kind of in a bad situation and it has made them a little unruly. It will take some time for them to get re-accustomed to handling and stuff. She's also talking about pet rats and stuff. At least she understands when I say I want to put a self-closing screen door on my "science room" with a metal kickplate on the bottom :D I don't mind the fish at all.

What can I say? I got hooked up with the woman that digs animals.

[Robert Keeley]

There are generally two things things that dictate a mod we decide to take on. It's obvious we could become a "we mod everything" camp....but that would lead to ruin I'm sure.
What happened in the very beginning and really still tips the scale is the "request line". As people start talking about a pedal it is noted and becomes a potential. The BD-2 is a perfect example. I was not familiar with the large following it had. So after it was clearly on the radar because of requests to make it better, I started to take down all complaints players had with it. I then start to work on the problems people have with the sound. I don't really put my own desires into it at this stage at all. It's all about the regular users that love the pedal. Later and what happens now a bit more than in the past is that I will have something hit me when I'm driving around...something that would be unique. Mostly they are simple....like Blue LEDs, using Burr Brown chips, Silver Solder, Teflon Wire so that it doesn't melt and can be bent to look perfect, Expression pedal control to achieve some kind of "tap tempo" ease of use, exposing the LED we use in a distortion circuit so people can see it flash, Germanium transistors on the outside of a pedal sticking out like tubes, etc., etc., That is the part where I inject myself or the only real creative part.
For example, the SD-1 has a bad bleed-through problem when off and there are no other FET switching style pedals around it. So I designed a secondary FET circuit to further remove the overdrive circuit. All this by customer request.
Another example is the bass response we settled on for our TS9 mods. Many players were polled that played strats in the bridge position and les paul players that used the neck pickup....I had to find a balance. I didn't decide myself what the perfect bass response was, the players did.
That is one of the things that make designing my own pedals really slow. I have at least 5 of my own designs in partial completion, and 3 or so that are designs with other people (JO!)
....all a bit slow because there is not a database of requests to make it "perfect" so to speak.

So, simply it's a database with customer requests. Those requests get turned into circuits or mods.
Thanks for the great question Mark, hope I didn't give away my supersecretbusinessmodel. ;-)

Oh Yeah! Through in a BUNCH of costly mistakes that will REALLY make you learn and Love the Customer as though they will come to the shop and kick yer butt. Customer service by way of fear is the ultimate. Folks in consulting have even written articles on our customer service method. Making sure we hire mostly players so that when customers call they get someone who understands their requests. Letting those employees know it's the customer who counts and generally they are Always Right. It's easy to please a customer and it is not so back breaking or expensive to do.
rk
ps, I was wrong, there are 17 people. I guess I better get to know these folks! :D ;)