Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

[Anderton]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?

[brikus]

Originally posted by Anderton
does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard?

yes. Any other question ? :)

[Artur Meinild]

Seems like a good time to pop up from the keys forum and chime in... :) I think it really, really depends on who's playing the guitar and keyboard, respectively. You could say that the guitar is maybe inherently more expressive, since a guitar doesn't require hours of programming. But with some good synth programming and decent use of aftertouch, mod wheel, control pedal and maybe breath control, combined with excellent playing technique, I would say keyboards can be as expressive as an any "analog" instrument if you get the drift...

[Jotown]

No.

How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.

I have been told that I can be equally expressive on my guitar or my organ.:D

[44deluxe]

Guitars are more expressive.

If a child hits a key it sounds the same as Jan Hammer hitting a key.

That's not true of a guitar

[44deluxe]

Or Richard Clayderman :)

[Carbirn]

Depends on who's behind it, but often guitars are easier to express emotions as you can bend strings etc...but that's coming from a guitarist:D

[Guitar Centaur]

A big greasy Hammond with a leslie attached in the hands of a master can floor me every time.

[Tedster]

To me, each instrument has its own virtues and limitations. For the ability to play both accompaniment and melody at the same time, it's hard to beat a keyboard, although it's possible to do on guitar, it's arguably more difficult.

Wind instruments, although expressive, lack the ability to play chords (unless you're talking bagpipes or harmonicas)

Everything's a tradeoff...(shrug)

[Caevan O'Sh!te]

As a guitarist, I can state unequivocably that I've never seen a guitar or a keyboard be expressive in the slightest. In fact, I think I would have been spooked if they began expressing anything. Probably something like, "Get OUT!!", or the like, right?

And, yes, it does sound different if a child hits Richard Clayderman, than if it is done by a classically trained adult.

[Jotown]

Depends how old the child is, and how much he weighs.

[WFTurner]

For me it's always gonna seem a guitar is more expressive. However now at this point in time I'm spending much less time playing guitar and more and more with keyboards I'm intrigued at how expressive one can get with a keyboard. Guitar expressive and keyboard expressive are two different realms.

[sporter]

No, they just are basic to pop music and define that genre best.

[WattsUrizen]

guitars offer more direct control over the timbral qualities of a single note.

that only entails "more expressive" in a limited sense.

[rog951]

Depends on the player; depends on the listener.

Being a guitar player, my initial reaction was "sure, guitar's definitely the more expressive of the two." Mainly because of the directness of the instrument. Your fingers are touching the strings DIRECTLY and you can do things like impart vibrato, bends and things which are tougher (or at least require some advance preparation) on keyboard instruments.

But then I think about this friend of mine who is a concert pianist. When she plays something like Tchaikovsky's Concerto #1 and I just instantly crap my pants. :) That is so unbelieveably expressive to me, even though it's the expression of someone else's music.

BTW, looks like I registered here at HC a coupla years ago. Who knew?

[boosh]

Originally posted by Jotown
No.

How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.

I have been told that I can be equally expressive on my guitar or my organ.:D

I know groupies that have been very expressive with my organ ;)

[Tralfaz]

I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone. :p

[franknputer]

All other things being equal, I'd pick the guitar because there is more direct control over the notes, and more ways to play the notes than a keyboard. Not to say, of course, that keyboards aren't very expressive, though - and that it really depends on the person making the sounds as to whether it's expressive or not.

[44deluxe]

Originally posted by Tralfaz
I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone. :p

Nice :D :cool:

[The Real MC]

Although Tom Scholz likes to brag of emulating keyboards on his guitar, he still has to use pianos, Hammonds, pipe organs, and Wurlitzers.

And yes a greasy spitting Hammond/Leslie in the hands of a Hammond artist is very expressive. And that fahn cajun piano ala Billy Paine is expression you'll never hear out of a guitar.

[Burgess]

Players are expressive, instruments are simply the tools they use for that expression. The instrument in particular isn't as important as how it's being used.

Chick Corea playing arpeggios is quite expressive. BB King's extraordinary vibrato is equally so. And so on, and so on, and so on...

[KHAN]

Originally posted by Anderton
Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

NO!!!

It's just that guitarists are inherently more expressive than Keyboardists :p



Flame suit on: CHECK

[MorePaul]

it's an interesting question to be sure

I think it might be a good idea to separate the concepts of "artistically expressive" v "sonically expressive"

artistically expressive - well, I think that's up to how the artist controls the process (whatever that may be) to produce aesthetically valid work. Which I think we can safely say lies inside the artist.

"sonically expressive" - hmmm, this may be more what we are trying to get at
Wendy Carlos did mention, for instance, that the Bach selections were particularly well suited to that Mogg work b/c -
-They were contrapunctual (so multi mono lines were good)
-the synths of the time were not particualry strong at expressivo playing

In the same way, a harpsichord, for instance, may be seen as lacking some sonic expressiveness (limited dynamics/tonal variation) - now because of that, there is a body of technique developed to allow artistic expressiveness to be performed anyway (proper use of ornamentation, very slight arpeggiations to call to attention certain tones, doubling of key tones at the performer's discretion, etc)

As maybe another example, would be the manual morse code key (not a "bug" - the automated paddle that allows the keying of a dit one way and a dah the other) -- those so involved can recognize a transmitter's "fist" (style...voice) in the coding


conclusions? I have none, but figured that I'd offer those (unstructured at best) observations as food for thought

[Rabid]

This is something that was discussed a lot around the Keyboard Corner. 25 years ago you could buy keyboards like the Rhodes Chroma that were very expressive. Velocity, release velocity, bi-directions levers, multiple pedals. On top of that it had lots of routing possibilities and very good stock patches. It was designed to let the player be expressive and it was the first time I felt I could compete with guitarists on expressive solos. Then the Yamaha DX7 came out and all was lost. Sure, it had a breath controller, but not much else. The competition had even less. For years you got two wheels, velocity and after touch, but what was missing is routing possibilities. There was not much to do with bad sounding digital filters and LFO’s that could not be driven into audible range.

But in the last 5 years things have started looking much better. You want routing possibilities? Get a Nord Modular or even a Roland Fantom. You want control? Get a controller with lots of knobs, sliders and pedal inputs. Even workstations like Fantom and Motif have lots of control options. It has been a long, slow recovery and a lot of keyboardist learned to play on those instruments that lacked expressive control and sound.

So the question is this. Now that we again have capable instruments, do keyboardists know how to play expressively?

Robert

[fantasticsound]

I find most of the responses to this thread to be humorously ignorant.

First, I am a guitar player who noodles on piano.

I love the expressiveness of guitars, both electric and acoustic.

But pianos can be very expressive. Just listen to the differences between piano on a variety of different classical pieces. Then compare it to various rock piano. There is definitely a lot of expressiveness in the comparisons and contrasts of these performances.

In fact, it was guitar that was largely overlooked for its' lack of expressiveness by many classical composers. I think they were misguided, and certainly they did not have the variety of timbres available in the 20th century with steel vs. nylon (gut) string acoustics, hollow body, solid and semi-hollow electrics. And, of course, an electric guitar is but half the tool for expressiveness. You can't talk about the expression of electric guitars without including the variety of amplifiers, tube vs. solid state, one kind of pre-amp or power amp tubes vs. another. The list goes on.

But Craig asked about the expressiveness of keyboards. A modern keyboard has so many avenues of expression and variation of the timbres it plays back, filters to process those timbres, etc., that in the hands of an expert a keyboard can be incredibly expressive with just one sound. But how many keyboard players use one sound. ;)

I guess I hate this question because of the implied inferiority of which ever you don't choose. It's an arguement starter, IMO, which neither position can win.

They're both incredibly expressive in the right hands, and blandly one dimensional in the hands of a novice.

[mr.pmslaney]

Originally posted by Anderton
Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?

WOW! Are you a troll!!!!:mad:

OMD are Gods, right?:eek:


Ok, ok ok. Sure all instruments have their nice aspects to them but I have never heard a piano sound like a racecar, a screaming woman but still the guitar can just be single clear note.
The next time you are on your keyboard try ghost bending a note with out it sounding like you're playing some "Talking Heads shit.:p

[felix]

I think at the most basic level, the guitar is inheritantly a more expressive instrument. But it ends there, as soon as you factor in the players and instruments involved, the keyboard programs and controllers, the styles of music, etc.

I'm a keyboard guy (and definitely not a guitar guy), but I've played plenty of pianos and synths that are extremely expressive, and I've seen some unbelievably expressive keyboard performances.

I've also heard some God-awful neanderthal guitar wankers, and my pitiful attempts at guitar playing are completely void of expression altogether, so I guess it just depends.

This was the subject of a pretty ugly disagreement between me and Henry Robinett a long time ago on SSS @ MP. I have to say I was a bit defensive about the whole assumption that guitars are naturally more expressive.

[Artur Meinild]

I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone.

Well, maybe if you actually knew what you were talking about you would have the right to make such a statement. But the truth is there is this invention called aftertouch, which in fact CAN be used to apply vibrato to a note when "jiggling the finger". So please, at least get the facts right... :rolleyes:

Ok, ok ok. Sure all instruments have their nice aspects to them but I have never heard a piano sound like a racecar, a screaming woman but still the guitar can just be single clear note.

You are on thin ice friend. A keyboard does not equal a piano. Do you know what a synthesizer is? You can make a synth sound like any of those things, and even more so...

Obviously there are lot of guitar players here who has absolutely no clue whatsoever about what can be achieved with a synthesizer keyboard. But then again, you could say that it's beacuse the majority of keyboard players are pretty uninspiring...

[mr.pmslaney]

Originally posted by felix
I think at the most basic level, the guitar is inheritantly a more expressive instrument. But it ends there, as soon as you factor in the players and instruments involved, the keyboard programs and controllers, the styles of music, etc.

I'm a keyboard guy (and definitely not a guitar guy), but I've played plenty of pianos and synths that are extremely expressive, and I've seen some unbelievably expressive keyboard performances.

I've also heard some God-awful neanderthal guitar wankers, and my pitiful attempts at guitar playing are completely void of expression altogether, so I guess it just depends.

This was the subject of a pretty ugly disagreement between me and Henry Robinett a long time ago on SSS @ MP. I have to say I was a bit defensive about the whole assumption that guitars are naturally more expressive.

A guitar is something that takes more time to develop.
Hit a note on a piano of keyboard and do everything you can to bring it to a expressive peak; not much you can do. Pianos have no soul, no unique voice from player to player like a guitar player develops. If you hear a new guitar piece you can guess who it is in a few attempts. If you hear a new piano (or classical piece) the music has no defining signatures where you might know who it is.

unless it's some crap like Lanz or Yanni.*pukes*

[Baddass]

Originally posted by Anderton
Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions? I can take my guitar anywhere I want. And a guitar in my hands gives me security:cool: :D And I can tune it any damn way I want. :cool: ;)

[felix]

There are alternate tunings and temperaments on piano. And it is expressive to the point that different players sound different on different pieces. Also different pianos have different tonal characteristics, and they feel and play different too.

The same is true for synths. Read the new EQ, and check out BT's comments - it's not the tools, it's the talent.

[JoseC.]

What does suck more? Air guitar or air keyboards? Sure that no real men play keys anymore, at least not like when Keith Emerson used to play a big Moog modular behind his head WITH HIS TEETH. No wonder guitar players had to resort to putting their instruments on fire, but even then they had to douse them with a wimpy little lighter fluid can, when a Hammond B3 has REAL OIL inside. Gimme the smell of a burning B3 in the morning, with a Leslie wailing away...

Jeezz, sorry I'm a junior again, I feel a bit dizzy, where am I? what's this place? :)

[Lee Flier]

I definitely think the Hammond is an uber-expressive instrument! The drawbars allow expressiveness that you can't get on most keyboards. When somebody really knows how to work a B3 and a Leslie it gives me chills. :)

[geekgurl]

Well, for me, keyboards, in particular, piano, are/is more expressive than guitar. This is because I play piano better than I play guitar.

It's worth pointing out that piano is essentially a percussion instrument; and I disagree with claims that you can't tell the difference among players. Listen to Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Bruce Hornsby, the third grader who lives next door to you, Eddie Palmieri, McCoy Tyner, etc. etc. etc. and honestly tell me you don't hear a difference. I've been to jams as well as recitals where more than one player takes turns playing on the same instrument, and it does sound different depending on who's playing. And we're not even talking about greats, just hobbyists, students, and semi-pros.

The difference in piano playing comes from attack and release of the notes, as well as pedaling, and, because much more variation is typically available in this regard than other instruments, voicings/arrangements of the notes you play (10 fingers can play at once theoretically, very wide note range, all that). The instrument just encourages (demands?) the player to approach expression differently than one would a guitar. Maybe a good analogy of complimenting or criticizing a guitarist's "phrasing and tone" would be to compliment/criticize and pianist's "phrasing and attack."

That doesn't make it better or worse on its own ... just different. Listeners will have their preferences, and so will musicians.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Jotown
How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.+1

Some may think that a guitar allows for greater expression, but the right person playing even a non-velocity sensitive monophonic MiniMoog can make it sing.... :cool:

dB

[steadyb]

Only if Jimi Hendrix is playing the guitar. ;)

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by mr.palmsley
Pianos have no soul, no unique voice from player to player like a guitar player develops. If you hear a new guitar piece you can guess who it is in a few attempts. If you hear a new piano (or classical piece) the music has no defining signatures where you might know who it is...

Like I said, I find many of these replies humorously ignorant. :D

That you speak with such authority on something you obviously know so little about is a perfect example.

Piano players will tell you, flat out, you're wrong. Just as you hear obvious differences in two known players with expressive voices playing the same guitar, piano afficianados here the same thing in the playing of two piano players on the same instrument.

Go tell a piano player he can't tell the difference between Vladimir Horowitz and others, playing the same piece. Or Ben Tench vs Bruce Hornsby or Elton John, to compare similar players on similar music. They sound entirely different.

The piano has a LOT more expressiveness in dynamics (range of volumes the instrument is capable of). That's why the origin of its' name is the piano-forte. They are capable of expressiveness at incredibly low volumes, and increase to near ear shattering levels without amplification.

As you play a piano at various intensities, the timbre of the strings changes. This is why piano samples are so easy for players to spot. Imagine someone trying to fool you with a synth driven guitar line. It takes one heck of a great sound to approach obfuscating that the timbre isn't originiating from a guitar and the same is true of piano samples, even in the hands of exceptional players.

And that's just a discussion of piano. Add synthesizers with thousands of base sounds and waveforms, filters, effects that can be changed on the fly, sounds that can be manually morphed from one to another, aftertouch and other key sound modifiers, mod wheels, pitch wheels, 3 dimensional optical and magnetic field controllers (a la Roland's D-Beam or Alesis' recent effects and synth sound boxes) and you have electronic controls that, in the right hands can be infinitely expressive.

Again, as much as I respect Craig, I find this to be a topic that will only divide people into 3 camps with little understanding between them and potential for heated arguements over something that, in the end, doesn't mean squat. Guitar more expressive, Keyboard more expressive or both expressive in different ways.

The result is the same. 3 camps of people dug in to a position.

Will this affect anyone's decision to play keyboard or guitar?

[Mutineer]

I think it depends on what kind of emotions you are trying to express.

For some of us, the electronic/inorganic tonal nature of synthesizers bears a closer relationship to the feelings we want to express than the sound of an electric guitar.

Most musicians use their instruments as tools to explore the sensations they experience within themselves.
Synthesizers and guitars are perhaps better at echoing different aspects of human emotions.
Which of the two you're most drawn to, probably serves as some kind of indicator as to what type of emotions you tend to feel with the greatest intensity.

Whether you choose to use an electric guitar or a synthesizer to express yourself may initially help you set the general direction of your attempt at self-investigation.

But in the end, we choose our instuments by following our instincts - what is it we're trying to express, and what is the best way to achieve it?

[Mr. Donovan]

I know this thread was about keyboards, but since the subject of pianos came up I decided to post this.

Pianos do have a lot of expression. I'm not a piano player, so I won't try to explain how this works. I think geekgirl gave a good explanation.

Before the piano was invented there was the harpsichord. The harpsichord would play each note with the same intensity no matter how hard a player hit a key. The piano was inventented to allow more personal expression. Here's a link I found about piano history.
http://www.atonal.ca/history/history.html

[Gato]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, ... maybe :o

[the stranger]

I'd say neither. I've heard Jimi and I've heard Earland. What was the question? ;)

This concludes your blast from the past! :wave:

Time travel is just a relative shift. ;)

[coyote-1]

No.
yes. Any other question ? :)
'Expressiveness' on acoustic instruments is entirely up to the player. Pianos are keyboards... I've heard piano playing that can make you smile or cry as much as stuff played on ANY other instrument. The mere ability to bend notes does not necessarily make an instrument more expressive - it's all about the person playing it.

[EnemyofSilence]

I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone. :p

Pssst - there's this thing called Aftertouch....

[Lee Knight]

Guitars have the capability of being more expressive but guitarists have been fighting it for years. Saturation, compression, delays, chorus... anything to get away from having to learn how to actually control all that variability. So sure... inherently they are.

Tune into a classic jazz station for a week and start hearing how guys like Oscar Perterson, or Brubeck, or Tyner or Corea or Morton or Shearing overcome the "limitations" of thier instrument.

So are guitars really more expressive. I think in the end... no.

[alfonso]

I think that is difficult to compare guitars and keyboards, not only because a casiotone and a solaris are hard to put in the same category regarding expressiveness and a big difference can be found between guitars too, but because very different instruments use different ways to be expressive and have a different expressiveness.

It's much easier to compare within the same category....cello is said to be more expressive than viola or upright bass, a good concert piano will be much more expressive than a low-priced upright.....

I also think that an expressive musician will "port" his emotive approach on whatever instrument he plays.

[rasputin1963]

I will say, as a keyboardist of many years, that guitars are probably sexier to audiences than pianos are... They're so phallic... think of how many rock guitarists use their guitars to simulate masturbation and oral sex...

Not to mention that a guitarist can waltz all over the stage and even into the audience if he wishes. Guitars make for great visual spectacle, hugely important to stage shows. Most of the time, the audience cannot even see what the pianist is doing.

As instruments, their ability to pitch-slide so easily truly makes for a very emotional sound, almost certainly because it emulates the slides of the human voice.

And a guitar always seems so instantly warm to me: pull out a guitar at a campfire, and a warm, intimate, emotional mood is created instantaneously, even if the guitarist only knows a few chords... I've been jealous, on more than one occasion, of the "drawing power" of an acoustic guitar. As the folky 1960's showed us, the guitar seems to express the "vox populi" more readily than any keyboard.

Perhaps the advantage of keyboards is the ability to instantly reproduce SATB harmonies, all up-'n'-down the pitch spectrum; ie., simulate an orchestra. A good synth player can wield a pitch wheel like a mo'fo... I'm thinking especially of the great synth players of 1970's Funk and 1980's R&B... but I've never been able to play my synths like that--- live, anyway-- unfortunately...

It's been said that a piano is the EASIEST instrument to get started on (think: Chopsticks); but the HARDEST one to master. I'd have to agree.

[Billster]

If a child hits a key it sounds the same as Jan Hammer hitting a key.

Except Jan might know when to hit the key. ;)

[UstadKhanAli]

Pianos have no soul, no unique voice from player to player like a guitar player develops. If you hear a new guitar piece you can guess who it is in a few attempts. If you hear a new piano (or classical piece) the music has no defining signatures where you might know who it is.



You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

[franknputer]

Sure that no real men play keys anymore, at least not like when Keith Emerson used to play a big Moog modular behind his head WITH HIS TEETH.
Keith Emerson has teeth in the back of his head?!? :eek:

[UstadKhanAli]

I will say, as a keyboardist of many years, that guitars are probably sexier to audiences than pianos are... They're so phallic... think of how many rock guitarists use their guitars to simulate masturbation and oral sex...

You got all kinda hot and bothered while writing this thread, didn't you? :D

[pbognar]

Guitars have the capability of being more expressive but guitarists have been fighting it for years. Saturation, compression, delays, chorus... anything to get away from having to learn how to actually control all that variability. So sure... inherently they are.

Tune into a classic jazz station for a week and start hearing how guys like Oscar Perterson, or Brubeck, or Tyner or Corea or Morton or Shearing overcome the "limitations" of thier instrument.

So are guitars really more expressive. I think in the end... no.

I second that.

I think the string bending thing is getting the most focus from the guitar perspective. But what about a guitarist who bends poorly - eg. overshoots and bends to sharp? <gag> And the lack of dynamics? And the inability to play tightly clustered chords (unless you're using the Frank Gambale tuning)?

Even as a guitarist myself, I've been more blown away by keyboard and sax players than guitarists in general - except oddly enough by certain blues based guitarists. I'm not a huge blues fan - but SRV? Wow - take about touching a nerve. I think it's the whole vocal emulation thing.

Corea, Herbie, Shorter - they tend to cause the hairs on my arm to stand up.

Gregg Rolie with early Santana - another master of the B3.

Also, I have to mention East Indian musicians, and their 31 note scales. L. Shankar for instance. Also, check out the "Concert for George" DVD - "The Inner Light" with Anoushka Shankar on sitar.

A vocal quality in a player's approach is always impressive, as is a mastery of any instrument and an understanding and mastery of harmonic knowledge which manages to touch the listener's soul.

Heck, it's been said many times that Stevie Wonder's harmonica is more expressive than any of his keyboards...

I guess it's a cliche, but expressiveness exists when the musician is touching the listener's soul. And it's not just about bending strings.

[Magpel]

Depend on what you're expressing...lol.

There's a narrow definition of expression that defines it as the ability to slur notes or, as someone else pointed, achieve fine difference in timbre and attack.

But piano also has great touch response, and its capacity for expression through counterpoint and harmonic color exceeds the guitars's.

Somehow, we've equated expression with sustain and slurs. It's wrong. ; )

[Hard Truth]

Yes the guitar is inherently more expressive, but a good keyboardist can overcome the limitations of the instrument to play as expressively as a many guitarists. Also the piano is more expressive than the harsichord, and a B3 organ or good synth in the hands of a skilled player is more expresive than a piano.

The proof is that there are several "one-note" guitar players: players who you can identify on the first note. Examples include Santana, Garcia, Scofield, BB King, and Hendrix.

[kurdy]

I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone. :p

I think that's called "aftertouch". :)

Really, both instruments can be equally expressive, if played by very good musicians.

Now my opinion may be biased, due to the fact that I'm not a guitarist, but to me, it seems that piano is an easier instrument for a beginner. Most younger children start out on this instrument. As already mentioned, the note is gonna sound the same no matter who strikes the key. Guitar requires more finger technique.

But because piano is a bit of an easier instrument to learn, it allows for greater flexibility with different kinds of chords, voicings, inversions, polyphony. As a compositional tool, I think it's way better than guitar. Most songs written on guitar tend to have simpler chords and progressions, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit harder to stretch out, if you aren't really good. Unless you're writing a three-chord rock 'n roll song, in which case a guitar's limitations can actually be a help. I think part of the appeal of guitar is its ability to make less sound like more. Maybe in that sense, it's more expressive.

But in terms of flexibility, I think the piano/keyboard wins, hands down. And when you add synth and sampling technology, it beats guitar by a landslide. Not that it's a contest.

That said, as a piano player, I envy the portability of a guitar, and that it's much easier to look cool, and jump around the stage with one. Also, when you walk into the guitar department at a music store, there are so many choices. Different shapes, sizes, colors--it must be really exciting for someone looking to buy a guitar. I find it exciting, and I'm not even a guitarist. With keyboards--you've seen one, you've seen 'em all, basically.

[philbo]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?

Guitar more expressive than key board --- YES!
Sax more expressive than both --- YES^2!

[offramp]

A big greasy Hammond with a leslie attached in the hands of a master can floor me every time.


Well, duh...if I had that combo hurled at me, it would floor me, too. Might even kill me.

[Tralfaz]

I think that's called "aftertouch". :)


Wow... old thread. :eek:

But seriously, I've seen players do that since the 60's, on Hammond B-3's and pianos and such.

[rasputin1963]

You got all kinda hot and bothered while writing this thread, didn't you? :D

Ha-ha, UKA... You must admit, no-one ever went broke assuming that Sex Sells... Bowie, Zep, Alice Cooper, Stones, Springsteen, RHCP have all gotten plenty of mileage out of the stage shtick of having one group member kneel at the feet (ahem) of the lead guitarist during one of his musical spasms...

[Ernest Buckley]

No doubt. Guitar is more expressive. The human voice though, is the most expressive IMHO.

[UstadKhanAli]

Ha-ha, UKA... You must admit, no-one ever went broke assuming that Sex Sells... Bowie, Zep, Alice Cooper, Stones, Springsteen, RHCP have all gotten plenty of mileage out of the stage shtick of having one group member kneel at the feet (ahem) of the lead guitarist during one of his musical spasms...

You're right, so true!!!

Prince, Pussycat Dolls, Beyonce....

[tucktronix]

Depends on the player and the soul that is put into that instrument. To sit there and say that one is more expressive than the other is missing the point entirely. I'm a big fan of guys like Jimmy Smith, Oscar Peterson, Jordan Rudess and Stevie Wonder. On the other hand, there are many guitarists whose soloing leaves me breathless. I know of this one blues guitarist from Buffalo whom I the pleasure of playing with. Each lick he plays alters my state of consciousness. Jimi Hendrix is a major influence of mine, and I'm a keyboard player.

With a synthesizer, the expressivity in tones can equal or surpass the guitar in many aspects, and Jan Hammer has proven that convincingly. Again, it's all about the musician playing the instrument.

[halljams]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opinions?
By miles.
By Miles too. He always had great guitar players and seemed to abandon the keyboardists later on.
But wait, Bill Evans(not the sax player). My god, he was expressive. I would rather listen to him than any guitar player ever any day.

Yeah who knows. I hate it when synth players bend though, Yuck what an aweful sound.

[Billster]

Ha-ha, UKA... You must admit, no-one ever went broke assuming that Sex Sells... Bowie, Zep, Alice Cooper, Stones, Springsteen, RHCP have all gotten plenty of mileage out of the stage shtick of having one group member kneel at the feet (ahem) of the lead guitarist during one of his musical spasms...

You're right, so true!!!

...Beyonce....

Wait a minute! I play guitar. I can have Beyonce kneeling in front of me? :eek: :o

[Gomer Pyle]

I play guitar much better than keys and I'm first a drummer since 64 and sing lead and play bass in my band but when I get loose behind my A 100 and 147 I scare myself and wonder why I bother doing anything else, Paul.

[Hard Truth]

A couple of keyboard players posting here seemed to think that the only expressive advantage of the guitar is the ability to bend notes. But a skilled guitarist can control the attack, decay, sustain and release, and the vibrato and tremelo of every single note individually. A pianist can not get close to that kind of control over every note, synths get close, but can't do all that in real time.

However, a good point was made that the range and polyphonic capability of keyboards provides players with other means for expression. But for me the proof of the guitars superior expressiveness is that some guitar players can be identified after playing just one note, I don't believe that is true with keyboards.

[Beck]

Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

Old threads never die.

My background: Accomplished pianist/keyboardist, guitarist, vocalist, recordist… nearly 30 years. (If you want to count banging around on the piano since I was 4 or my first guitar at age 11 it’s even longer, but I don’t count that.)

No, I wouldn’t say either instrument is more expressive than the other… they simply express differently. Both can be used conventionally or unconventionally; with effects or not, etc. We bend them to our purpose as they bend us to theirs… we meet the instrument halfway. Keyboards and guitars can occupy some of the same musical territory. Perhaps they can be compared at that intersection, but in the end they have their own voice… and IMO an equally expressive one.

What I have observed is that when I begin creating music with one, the music has an entirely different feel than when starting with the other. The pianist Beck is so different from the guitarist Beck I can truly collaborate with myself as though I am two separate people… and I’m often just as surprised as I am at how it all falls together.

:)

[nice keetee]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?

Easier to express pitch/vibrato on strings, easier to express soundscapes on keyboard all the notes are in front on an 88 note piano style keyboard, traditional and trigger the rest.

[alfonso]

Yeah who knows. I hate it when synth players bend though, Yuck what an aweful sound.

You're absolutely right for most of them, with few exceptions, the first that comes to mind is obviously Jan Hammer. But it's true that I've heard a lot of great keyboard players fall down miserably on pitch bends....maybe because I'm a guitar player, mainly.

But for those skeptical about expressiveness on a piano, check some Gould or Michelangeli and then come back to talk about sound control on it again...

:)

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Until a minute ago I thought keyboards and guitars are made to express my musical thoughts and ideas.

[tucktronix]

A couple of keyboard players posting here seemed to think that the only expressive advantage of the guitar is the ability to bend notes. But a skilled guitarist can control the attack, decay, sustain and release, and the vibrato and tremelo of every single note individually. A pianist can not get close to that kind of control over every note, synths get close, but can't do all that in real time.


...and in that same token, I'm sick of these guitar players who continually associate expressivity with merely slurs, tremolo and vibrato. No instrument is any more expressive than the other. Expressivity is interpreted differently in each instrument. I'd much rather listen to a burning piano solo from Henry Butler than any loud note-bending SRV wankery.

For the record, synths have their own form of expression and, with channel and poly aftertouch, release velocity, joysticks and ribbon controllers, there is a high degree of control over the attributes you've mentioned.

[UstadKhanAli]

I know of this one blues guitarist from Buffalo whom I the pleasure of playing with. Each lick he plays alters my state of consciousness.

So who is this, and does he have any recorded stuff that we can hear?

~~~

I play both guitar and keyboards, btw, and I've been thinking about which is more expressive since this thread started. And I quite frankly still have no idea. And I just don't know that it's all that important for me to determine this. I do know that I can evoke great textures on either instrument, and that they respond very differently. Keyboards - I mean, what are we talking about? A piano? A B-3? A Rhodes? A synthesizer? What kind of synthesizer? All of those are very expressive in the hands of a great keyboardist. I don't know. Ultimately, if I can evoke textures and create an emotional performance from a guitar or a keyboard, then that's all that matters.

[UstadKhanAli]

I should also mention that a piano can be played many different ways, not just by hitting the keys. It can be treated, played with strings or bows, scraped, plucked, struck, have different objects placed on it, etc. It can create otherworldly sounds, different sorts of eerie violin type sounds, banging sounds, hard scrapes, and many other things. And played in a traditional manner, many different sounds can still be coaxed out of it by a skilled player.

A guitar can create sounds by banging on it. It can be used with effects, an e-bow, various different implements, vibrating objects, etc., and someone can control quite a lot of sounds on it, even if it's an acoustic guitar. It's also a truly remarkable instrument, capable of quite a variety of sounds, not just bending notes, which is what people seem to get hung up on.

[tucktronix]

So who is this, and does he have any recorded stuff that we can hear?


Jony James

http://www.myspace.com/jonyjamesband

http://www.jonyjamesband.com/

[Dudddits]

No.

How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.

I agree.

Does anyone really not agree?

There are a million differences between guitar and keyboard for sure, but which is more "expressive" is all about the player.

Actually, without players, pianos basically express "Hi. I'm a piece of furniture" while guitars express "Hi. Someone in this house is mellow, hip, or rebellious" which really does, actually, express more than the piano.

But I take it Craig meant what the instrument expresses when played, not when hanging around your living room all by itself.

[franknputer]

Guys, I think this question is really unanswerable. Both instruments have different things they can do - for example, a piano has a greater range available, yet guitars have more microtonal ability. To try to quantify which is "more" is silly.

What's more, "keyboards" is really too broad a term to be useful. "Guitar" has many variations, yet less than they number of keyboard-driven instruments out there. If you're going to consider synths, pianos, organs, harpsichords, clavinets, etc - all of the "keyboards" - then you really should broaden the definition of "guitar" to include all stringed instruments with a fingerboard...which leaves out sitars, hmm...

So, if you expand the definition to include instruments strings suspended between 2 points...well, that would include most keyboards too, except for electronic ones. ;)

Which one is more expressive? Well, that depends on the player. Guitars work better for me. But, to really find expression on the guitar, you have to study sax players...vocalists...and even keyboardists. :eek:

[UstadKhanAli]

Jony James

http://www.myspace.com/jonyjamesband

http://www.jonyjamesband.com/



...and he can sing well, too. Damn him anyway. :D

[tim_7string]

I play both instruments like some of you do (guitar and keyboards).

However, I actually started out on piano. It was my wish to be a keyboardist/synthesizer player for an '80s band. Back when I took piano lessons, synth pop was all over the radio and on music video channels.

Over the years of piano lessons I took, I was able to learn how to give weight to a composition, with light touch in certain parts, heavier touch in others and the use of the "forte" (sustain) pedal on the right would add a touch of airyness. It's similar to a guitarist letting an open string ringing out and decaying (drone) while playing other notes on other strings.

Keyboards were a different animal, since some of them did not have aftertouch or velocity sensitivity. Using the pitch and modulation wheels became important to get some sort of expression. One of the reasons I bought my Ensoniq ESQ-1 back in 1990 was because it had velocity sensitivity. I knew I would be unhappy if I could not use loud and soft touch when I played certain sounds on a synthesizer, so I gravitated towards that one. It still plays and sounds great. I love the keys. Like the neck of a guitar, it's very important to me how the playing area feels under my fingers.

When I switched to guitar a few years later, I had to learn a whole new set of tools to get an expressive sound out of it. As before, I started out on an acoustic version (flat top guitar) and graduated to an electric guitar and amp. I played through that for many years with my only effects being my pick, my fingers, a second channel for distortion and built-in reverb. After several years of that, I started to add pedals like a wah, an eq, chorus and delay. All of those elements helped me to express the sounds I was hearing and feeling.

If it's a quick and dirty comparison between a basic synthesizer and an electric guitar, I would choose the guitar because the strings are directly manipulated by the fingers, much like a violin, viola, cello or double bass is. A synthesizer is a plastic and metal machine that is more like an effect pedal. Still, in the right hands, it can sound like magic.

For the record, I think I would answer the question thusly: with the proper amount of skill applied, any instrument can be expressive if the musician playing it happens to have a natural ability for expression itself.

[Tedster]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?

2002?

[halljams]

You're absolutely right for most of them, with few exceptions, the first that comes to mind is obviously Jan Hammer.

:)
Yes there is no denying Jan, amazing.

[fretwizz]

I'd say neither. I've heard Jimi and I've heard Earland. What was the question? ;)
This concludes your blast from the past! :wave:
Time travel is just a relative shift. ;)

AHA!
So it was you who revived this thread!

How on earth did you find it?

Do you spend your spare time sifting through old posts on HC?;)

I vote for guitar.
Inherently a guitar...even an acoustic guitar... is more expressive than
an acoustic keyboard such as a piano or harpschord and even a basic
electronic keyboard such as an organ.

The story changes when you include Synths with pitch and mod wheels
and whatever other controllers you may be able to rig.

But the basic guitar, by it's very nature is able to be played more expressively
than a basic keyboard because of the direct contact of the fingers to the
strings.

Even on an acoustic guitar you can bend a note... which just isn't possible
on a piano, harpsichord etc etc....

Of course, being a guitarist 1st and a keyboard player a distant second,
I may be somewhat biased in my opinion on this subject....
:lol:

[UstadKhanAli]

I'll chime in again, as I continue ruminating about it.

My gut reaction at first was to say "guitar" because, after all, a guitarist is playing it directly with his fingers.

But then, when you consider what a keyboardist can do with a keyboard - what kind of keyboard? - then it becomes more difficult.

A B3, after all, is capable of a LOT of sounds, especially with those pedals and drawbars and such. I mean, that's a LOT of nuance.

And then, if you add a keyboard that has aftertouch sensitivity or warbling or modulations or filter sweeps or portamento or pitchbending or morphing from one sound to another or effects or patching or different sounds or whatever, it becomes quite difficult to truly determine whether a guitar is more expressive than a keyboard.

[DevilRaysFan]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both...

Any opnions?


No - You have it backwards: people are expressive - guitars and keyboards are inanimate objects -- Yes, thats profound -- but man knows how to adapt himself artistically - with touch, taste, soul, and finesse - regardless of the instrument of choice

[UstadKhanAli]

No - You have it backwards: people are expressive - guitars and keyboards are inanimate objects -- Yes, thats profound -- but man knows how to adapt himself artistically - with touch, taste, soul, and finesse - regardless of the instrument of choice

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there? :D

[fretwizz]

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there? :D

Guitar.;)

[Billster]

Yes there is no denying Jan, amazing.

Actually, IMO, you can deny Jan.

Jan gets a lot of attention, but to me he's a one-trick pony. Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, and absolutely Joe Zawinul out distance Jan as composers and multi-faceted performers.

And those other three I named are more expressive (just to stay on topic) ;)

[DevilRaysFan]

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there? :D

Neither - which is my point....Have you ever seen a skilled laborerer of a particular facet perform? Like when an assembly line worker's hands run a ballet of functions that can "magically" solder together a component perfectly and beautifully in a few seconds that would take the average slob like me an hour to complete with globs of shit all over the place...or the way the string-winders at a guitar factory can slap strings on an instrument in unbelievable record time, with picture-perfect windings, and perfect pitch that takes the average layman ten times as long to do ( I actually witnessed this in Meridian, Mississipi) :thu:...same goes with canvas painting, dressmaking, typing, blacksmiths, clay, brick masons, sports, keyboards, guitar, and a billion other things.....

Human beings are some clever and tricky little bastages that eventually figure out all the "paths of least resistance" to any given task by incorporating soul, experience, and just the right amount of "touch", with some performing beyond the expectations of others.....and its this "adaption" capacity of the human equation that makes the difference, regardless if they are playing music, flying airplanes, or making wedding dresses........

Which is why a human familar with all the idiosyncracies of guitar will give you every reason in the world why the guitar-format supercedes the keyboard-format for expressiveness..... and a proficient keyboardist/synthesist/pianist/organist that knows their instruments in depth and the facets of their performance can point out every advantage that the keyboard-format has for expression over the guitar-format...... and people familiar with reasonable knowledge and/or experience for both will sit on the fence and ping-pong the advantages/disadvantages of either....

No offense, Mr Anderton, but its really that simple - therefore not a very good question to begin with.........

[UstadKhanAli]

Neither - which is my point....Have you ever seen a skilled laborerer of a particular facet perform?

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

[tucktronix]

Actually, IMO, you can deny Jan.

Jan gets a lot of attention, but to me he's a one-trick pony.

Hey Bill,

You should check out Jan with Mahavishnu(esp the YouTube footage with Mahavishnu at Syracuse Univ 1972). He absolutely rips on the Rhodes.

Folks often associate Jan Hammer w/ guitar-like synth leads. His Rhodes playing is hugely underrated IMO.

[Kendrix]

Interesting thread.
How do we define expressiveness?
Sonically? ( such as one bends notes one doesnt, one does chords one doesnt)

OR

Should expressiveness be measured by the ability to evoke an emotional response in active listeners?

If you use the second definition then, in the right hands, all these instrumments can be equally expressive.

Even so I must say I'm really glad Jimi played electric geetar rather than piano.

[DevilRaysFan]

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

yup -- Lets just say that, when I posted all that, I was posting "Under The Influence"... :cop:



:D

[joel Oporto]

It is easier in the onset to be expressive with the guitar but ultimately they are both equally expressive albeit each in its own way with strengths and weaknesses. In the hands of masters, both are equally expressive. Whereas a guitarist will employ slides bends and vibrato, there are piano and keyboard synth techniques that are not available on the guitar. To name a few, glissandos, chord clusters, ten to 14 note harmonies, not to mention the 8 octave range at your disposal. Characteristics of each instruments dictate they will have different ways of expression but will certainly be no less of the other. Blues pianist will not sound the same as a blues guitarist but both will be as similarly expressive. A guitar could never fully express the chordal ruminations of a Rachmaninoff concerto.

[Billster]

Hey Bill,

You should check out Jan with Mahavishnu(esp the YouTube footage with Mahavishnu at Syracuse Univ 1972). He absolutely rips on the Rhodes.

Folks often associate Jan Hammer w/ guitar-like synth leads. His Rhodes playing is hugely underrated IMO.

Oh, I'm very familiar with the early Mahavishnu stuff. That's actually some of my favorite Jan. The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool. It started going downhill when he got a pitch bend wheel.:wave:

[fretwizz]

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

And I hope people notice the winking emoticon on some of my posts.;)

[fretwizz]

".....The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool....."

Some of the coolest keyboard playing ever recorded....

[SeattleRuss]

Didn't read the whole thread but....

From a shear physical / physics standpoint, the guitar simply is more "connected" to the player, and can be manipulated in so many ways - I have to go with the guitar on this one. Although I consider piano, B3, rhoades and the like to be much more "alive" than synths / samplers.

With synths / samplers, the bottom line is: you're just turning switches on and off albiet with different velocities. You have much less to do with the actual sound that's coming out of them.

Remember - I'm talking about the potential expressivness of the instrument here, which is what the OP had in mind, correct? I realize that overall expressiveness in going to be down to the musician.

The OP mentioned sax....

There was a time several years back when I was practicing the hell out of the alto and seriously began to get rather bummed out because of how much more expressive the sax is compared to the guitar.....I had to put the sax away as there's only 24 hours in a day and I didn't want to play the guitar less.....

[SeattleRuss]

Billster wrote:
That's actually some of my favorite Jan. The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool. It started going downhill when he got a pitch bend wheel.

I hate to say it but I have to agree with this.....

[alfonso]

Should expressiveness be measured by the ability to evoke an emotional response in active listeners?

If you use the second definition then, in the right hands, all these instruments can be equally expressive.

I couldn't say it better, as a general rule. Quality of the instrument within a certain category and a given skill makes the difference.

[alphajerk]

No.

How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.

I have been told that I can be equally expressive on my guitar or my organ.:D

i didnt have to read any further to find an AMEN! the performer is the one that is expressive, NOT the instrument. a guitar untouched makes as little as expression as a keyboard untouched.

[philbo]

i didnt have to read any further to find an AMEN! the performer is the one that is expressive, NOT the instrument. a guitar untouched makes as little as expression as a keyboard untouched.

Oh, I don't know... An untouched piano (especially a grand piano) says "We're cultured; none of your nasty blonde jokes will be laughed at here"

An untouched guitar (either hanging on the wall or on a guitar stand) says "I'm a rebel, a loner, a neo-beatnik. I listen to NPR"

Both are very expressive when collecting dust. :cool:

(Dulcimers are also cool when hanging on the wall)

[Philter]

It depends on which notes you're playing.

[Tusks]

I found this video of David Sancious and Joe Bonadio very appealing. It raised my awareness of the kinds of expressions that are ergonomic and natural to the keyboard synthesizer. Sancious is using an extra attachment much as a guitarist might use a whammy bar or a partial capo ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RByaN8w5mso

The video illustrates how much the range of expression in the keyboard synthesizer has increased in the last 30 years. To me, it's a period similar to the 1950 to 1980 period for electric guitars. Both instruments are relatively young and growing compared with acoustic instruments.

The expressions that are "natural" to the keyboard are different from the "natural" expressions on a guitar. Each has it's own voice. We play best when we understand each other's strengths and play to our own strengths. In my opinion ...

Jerry