I finally figured out the Apple thing!

[Anderton]

Okay, as I consigned my IIci to the scrap heap, I realized that Apple's success is due to clever "hardware management." Apple makes nice margins on hardware; compare generic PC vs. Apple and you see what's happening. So Apple needs you to turn over your computers as much as possible for them to stay profitable, do R&D, come up with bold strokes like the iPod, etc.

But to be fair, they hold up their end of the bargain. When you get a new Mac, first of all, it looks bitchin'. Apple's industrial design is about as good as it gets; their computers are works of art IMHO. And you get a state of the art performance boost (assuming any relevant software has been updated to accommodate new hardware) because of hardware improvements.

Microsoft makes their bucks on the OS, so it's in their interest to have people get a new OS whenever Windows mutates into something new. And like Apple, they work hard to come up with the incentives so you go "Yeah, that's worth the bucks."

But we're also talking pure, unfiltered planned obsolescence, aren't we? Even if I wanted to use my IIci, no web browser that would run on it would pass a web site's browser check.

We all know progress has a price, but I think Apple has based their model around not just progress, but obsolescence. Even that brand new spanking Dual G5 is pretty much toast once the Intel-based models appear. In return, you get the latest and greatest. More and more, Apple is looking like sports cars, and Microsoft, like sedans -- albeit with leather seats and XM radio :)

[el cochino]

Hi Craig, welcome to HC or should I say MF? :)

As a long time Logic Audio user (I'm using Emagic products since Creator/Notator) I'm kinda stuck with Apple anyway. But even if I'd change to a different DAW, I doubt that I'd switch to PC. Apples are reliable, stable and never let me down through all these years. That said, for the studio I'm using Apple (just bought a new G5 dual 2,7GHz) and for everything else, the PC is just fine for my needs.

[Jotown]

Howdy Craig!

The real question is: Red apple or Green apple?:)

[Carbirn]

Well I'm big on Apple computers is the way they look, the way they're so much stable as when I was studying in college with a custom-made music PC, it still crashed! While on Apple computers esp. since OS X the program crashes and you just open the thing again! Sweet! I'm saving for my Apple laptop at the moment...

[Phil O'Keefe]

I think that's a pretty darned good description of the corporate cultures of the two computer giants Craig. :cool:

I've been through a lot of different computers over the years - Ataris, Macs, PC's - For me, they're all just tools. If they can run the software I want to use, and they work reliably (and both can be reliable platforms), I'm a happy camper. :)

[Jotown]

I'm a happy camper.

Which is a lot better than being in a crappy hamper.:D

[Duck King]

So, did I. I figured out that they sucked and sold mine.

[Brittanylips]

Sure, companies want to sell what they sell. Apple sells hardware, MS sells software. But "pure, unfiltered planned obsolescence?" Sounds like a conspiracy theory from a closet Apple hater!

The IIci is from 1989.

That computer lasted you 16 years.

That's longer than people generally keep computers of any stripe, not to mention cars and cats.

How many Microsoft programs do you still use from 1989? Is that pure, unfiltered planned obsolescence?

(In any case, shame on me for taking the Mac vs. PC bait - I take it your strategy was to get this thread out of the way so that everyone could get past it and talk about the good stuff :) )

- Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[Jotown]

Hey Blips,

Welcome to the dark side.:cool:

[Brittanylips]

Hey JoTown <wave>

At first I wasn't so sure about these new digs, but as I started to explore the neighborhood a bit, the restaurants, bars, clubs, met a few locals, went fishing, saw a movie, got some takeout, ran a half marathon, did the glass bottom bus, a little antiquing, Lee's lecture on the semiology of SpongeBob , the potato sack races, paragliding, skeet shooting, fondue making class, medieval times dinner theater, whales in space iMax, open drum, neighborhood watch, potluck, virtual midwifery, naked Beatlemania, and make-your-own-pencils, I realized it wasn't all that bad.

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[aclarke]

Originally posted by Brittanylips
... virtual midwifery...

Is that for PS2 or XBox?

:confused:

[nursers]

Originally posted by aclarke


Is that for PS2 or XBox?

:confused:

I'm nearly a virtual midwife - just another year of study ;)

[Mikeo]

Originally posted by Anderton
When you get a new Mac, first of all, it looks bitchin'.


One of the top features I look for in a computer.

But you are right.

[slugball]

Apple -- not just elegant physical design -- elegant OS as well. I use both Macs and PCs extensively -- there is no comparison in terms of what one needs to know in order to troubleshoot problems. I'd recommend the Mac OS to any novice -- the security features alone make it worth the extra $. A lot of care and feeding goes into running a Windows machine in a networked environment.

[Joey Ace]

I compare Apples to BMWs.

They both a <4% market share but the quality is the best.

I currently use a two year Powerbook G4 as my main computer.

Great machines!

[Duck King]

Originally posted by Joey Ace
I compare Apples to BMWs.

They both a <4% market share but the quality is the best.

I currently use a two year Powerbook G4 as my main computer.

Great machines!

Yeah, that's a great comparisson of two overrated pieces of crap.

[OSX]

Thax for the complements :)




Originally posted by Duck King


Yeah, that's a great comparisson of two overrated pieces of crap.




(he couldn't work a mac and needs pity)

:cool: SX

[sporter]

Originally posted by Anderton
Okay, as I consigned my IIci to the scrap heap, I realized that Apple's success is due to clever "hardware management." Apple makes nice margins on hardware; compare generic PC vs. Apple and you see what's happening. So Apple needs you to turn over your computers as much as possible for them to stay profitable, do R&D, come up with bold strokes like the iPod, etc.

But to be fair, they hold up their end of the bargain. When you get a new Mac, first of all, it looks bitchin'. Apple's industrial design is about as good as it gets; their computers are works of art IMHO. And you get a state of the art performance boost (assuming any relevant software has been updated to accommodate new hardware) because of hardware improvements.

Microsoft makes their bucks on the OS, so it's in their interest to have people get a new OS whenever Windows mutates into something new. And like Apple, they work hard to come up with the incentives so you go "Yeah, that's worth the bucks."

But we're also talking pure, unfiltered planned obsolescence, aren't we? Even if I wanted to use my IIci, no web browser that would run on it would pass a web site's browser check.

We all know progress has a price, but I think Apple has based their model around not just progress, but obsolescence. Even that brand new spanking Dual G5 is pretty much toast once the Intel-based models appear. In return, you get the latest and greatest. More and more, Apple is looking like sports cars, and Microsoft, like sedans -- albeit with leather seats and XM radio :)

Welcome to 1987! :)

[el cochino]

Originally posted by sporter


Welcome to 1987! :)

It was a good year! :mad:

Ok, fashion wise it wasn't. :o

[Sneaky6]

Originally posted by el cochino


It was a good year! :mad:

Ok, fashion wise it wasn't. :o

you STILL wear your spandex crotch grabbers from 1987:rolleyes:........









.........hey, nice ass:o

[MorePaul]

Jobs esp has always been more of a HW / industrial design guy
(his HW centric approach is one, oft-cited reason NeXT tanked as badly as it did as he didn'tfollow a NextStep license based bailout strategy)

I don't particularly find there even to be a need to plan obsolescence...rather, not only is the technology still evolving, but the cultural role of the computer, and possibly most impactful to the "planned obsolesence" question the dev process is still way primative...
incremental improvements, really really soft specification : requirements and design specs that don't match, that change, that sometimes don't even exist. Poor documentation, a QA process that is "downward" (Jrs testing Sr's designs ?!?) critically under-resourced and not typically empowered.
The push to release for your quarterlies

All these things tend to make incrementals de rigeur

The push to morph the computer into an "information appliance" (which certainly isn't new...even old-school fiction could treat the computer as a 'brain in a box' or the "magic answer univac")
can also have an impact.
The post Woz apple, for instance, are somewhat monolithic and in-so-doing...may wind up having some limits to how an individual unit can evolve

I'm not a particular fan of the Apple aesthetic. I mean, I don't have a beef with the products themselves, but I do find the aesthetic to be a little trite, sometimes almost Nagel-ish, with kind of a dated concept of the future...it is in keeping with the Jobs Generation "contempo" look
Once again, that's a personal opinion of the aesthetic

The ][ series was a fairly open architecture for hobbyists, hardware interfacing was easy and open (hell, the thing came with a schematic!). I've seen ][s still run lab equipment to this day (they have some advantages such as an OS that has no preemptive task switching, very open HW etc)

In many ways, the desktop computer has moved from a calculation tool to a communications tool (There are many who consider their computer "broken is web disabled, a great many systems have no programming language installed on them).
This may be somewhat high overhead as we are often tasking the machines with things they aren't particularly good at -- this makes the dev process longgggggg, haarrrrrdddd, and imperfect
which is going to yield improvements and changes in approach over time... which is going to cause obsolesence

[daklander]

LINUX!

The two Linux boxes I have are rock solid. (Running Mepis 3.1.1) One is still a dual boot with Window 2K the other, main computing box, to this point is Mepis alone. My wife and daughter run Win ME and they are nightmares in many respects though I'm probably going to convert both to Linux. My work involved laptop is running Windows XP and other than my one foul-up that entailed a re-install, it's been rock solid as well. I was fairly easily able to set things up so I can print remotely, via wireless, to the printers connected to the other coputers, one of which is connected to two computers, one with ME as an os and the other is the Linux box.

The only disadvantage I see to this point is the dirth of audio programs though that is getting better all the time.

[Alndln2]

Steve Jobs has pulled some fast ones regarding upgrades and has outright lied at times.After getting burned by Apple hardware I tended to not trust them anymore,and with Apple bonding with Intel I can say for sure I wont even glance in that direction again for a looooong time.

[Rabid]

If anything drives me back to using a Mac at double the price of the same PC power, it will be the "Windows for Dummies" code that plauges XP. Every time a pop up tells me that I have unused icons on my desk top, or my computer is unprotected and I need anti-virus software I get mad. I don't want anti-virus software on my music computer. I want that Reason icon on my desktop, even if I have not used it in 6 months. I don't want Bill sending me little message bubbles every day telling me how to best manage my computer when he has no idea what I use it for. I want him to stop wasting my CPU cycles. :mad:

So, does Mac have those little nag bubbles that pop up from time to time?

Robert

[MorePaul]

lander does have a good point in that these things very often degenerate into weird Mac v Wintel (which is strange in itself b/c at least until recently, Windows had an alpha kernel as well....do they still? I don't have an MSDN 'script at the moment)
which is a fairly narrow view

PC itself is a loaded term...I'm still from a gen and culture where "PC" is "Personal Computer" (ie it's not the 'frame) - not a specific brand or type - so I have to sometimes edit myself and I'm trying to get used to using "desktop" though that seems to remove "laptop" from the equation

I think there are more diverse workflows and work options out there than we give ourselves. While binary is in heavy use in digital computing...it ain't the only way...maybe we should keep that in mind as we look at our systems -- there can be more than 2 states

[el cochino]

Originally posted by Sneaky6


you STILL wear your spandex crotch grabbers from 1987:rolleyes:........









.........hey, nice ass:o

Because I have the body to wear them! :mad:

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by el cochino


Because I have the body to wear them! :mad:
so...you are saying you can still fit into them b/c they are stretchy?!?

[el cochino]

Originally posted by MorePaul

so...you are saying you can still fit into them b/c they are stretchy?!?

Exactly, and there's still enough room for a pair of socks in the PP area, as well. :o

[JoseC.]

Originally posted by daklander
LINUX!

My wife and daughter run Win ME and they are nightmares in many respects though I'm probably going to convert both to Linux.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[aliensporebomb]

Originally posted by Anderton
Okay, as I consigned my IIci to the scrap heap, I realized that Apple's success is due to clever "hardware management." Apple makes nice margins on hardware; compare generic PC vs. Apple and you see what's happening. So Apple needs you to turn over your computers as much as possible for them to stay profitable, do R&D, come up with bold strokes like the iPod, etc.

But to be fair, they hold up their end of the bargain. When you get a new Mac, first of all, it looks bitchin'. Apple's industrial design is about as good as it gets; their computers are works of art IMHO. And you get a state of the art performance boost (assuming any relevant software has been updated to accommodate new hardware) because of hardware improvements.

Microsoft makes their bucks on the OS, so it's in their interest to have people get a new OS whenever Windows mutates into something new. And like Apple, they work hard to come up with the incentives so you go "Yeah, that's worth the bucks."

But we're also talking pure, unfiltered planned obsolescence, aren't we? Even if I wanted to use my IIci, no web browser that would run on it would pass a web site's browser check.

We all know progress has a price, but I think Apple has based their model around not just progress, but obsolescence. Even that brand new spanking Dual G5 is pretty much toast once the Intel-based models appear. In return, you get the latest and greatest. More and more, Apple is looking like sports cars, and Microsoft, like sedans -- albeit with leather seats and XM radio :)

I disagree. I used my 400 mhz G4 for six years and my dual G5 will run at least that long - all of my music software runs on it now, and will continue to run on it after the Intel switch.

Besides, the high end machines won't be swapped out for another TWO YEARS and I'm
pretty much going to keep it until it blows up.

No problems. My PC in the basement will likely be (already is) moribund prior to this one fading out. That machine is an Athlon 2400 but I've got it running Xandros Linux which spares me much of the headaches I get with the Windows machines I deal with all day at work.

[where02190]

We've got a 4+ year old Dual 1 Ghz G-4 that kicks ass very nicely, runs PTle to the max on tracks without breaking a sweat, Tracktion like it was idling, and is a long long way from being obsolete.

Same with my even older G-4 550Mhz Titanium powerbook.

[daklander]

Originally posted by JoseC.


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Simple enough for primary English speakers, sorry.

The nighmares refer to the computers though both the wife and daughter can also be nightmares upon occasion. :D

I'm going to convert both computers to Linux in the near future and so get away from all the ad/spyware they accrue because they are not careful where they go on the internet.

[Sylver]

You get what you pay for.

[daklander]

Originally posted by Sylver
You get what you pay for.

Sometimes. Other times you pay too much for the item and pay again every time there's an upgrade. MAC is that way with hardware. Windows is that way with software. The consumer loses in both instances. Kind of liken it to Pro Tools. Buy it now for thousands and when they upgrade, buy it again for even more thousands.

[blue2blue]

Originally posted by Joey Ace
I compare Apples to BMWs.

They both a <4% market share but the quality is the best.

I currently use a two year Powerbook G4 as my main computer.

Great machines!

Quality of BMW's used to be good. I'd buy an early 90s BMW before I'd buy one made in this century.


You know, I spend a bit of time lurking in Mac threads and have a number of Mac power user friends (and, for that matter, I spent some time with a 2 year old G4 powerbook, a machine that cost 1/3 more than my beloved same-age Dell Inspiron would have cost if I hadn't bought it refurbished; ask me to compare them sometime) -- and I'm having a bit of the ol cognitive dissonance reading some of the comments here. But there's plenty of time for giving into schismogenic impulses later...


I'll say this: I think the G5 tower is the most beautiful and retro-hip personal computer ever. Its evocation of late 60s functional futurist design is smack on.


I'm keeping my eye out for used cases in the future. Might be just the place to put a next generation Pentium M based system... wouldn't that be an amusing touch?

[Anderton]

Just to clarify...I haven't used the IIci since about 1996. I just couldn't bear to throw it out because it had such great design, so easy to maintain and update. I moved on to two different PowerPCs after that, added a G3 PowerBook, a borrowed G4 for doing EQ/Keyboard magazine work, and now have a dual G5. So I'm no Mac hater! I do most of my music work on Windows machines, though, because a lot of the software I use doesn't have Mac versions.

[Dylan Walters]

I like apples, but you just can't beat honeydew melon :eek:.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Anderton
Just to clarify...I haven't used the IIci since about 1996. I just couldn't bear to throw it out because it had such great design, so easy to maintain and update.

The ][ series was cool and I think there was still Woz in there at that time

[OSX]

Originally posted by Dylan Walters
I like apples, but you just can't beat honeydew melon :eek:.



Have you tried sitting naked on a chilled slice of honeydew melon?



:confused: SX

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Alndln2
Steve Jobs has pulled some fast ones regarding upgrades and has outright lied at times.Examples?

[Dylan Walters]

Originally posted by OS 9




Have you tried sitting naked on a chilled slice of honeydew melon?



:confused: SX

No, but it sounds refreshing!

[Zimphire]

Anyone see the latest screenshots of "Vista"

:p

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton
Just to clarify...I haven't used the IIci since about 1996. I just couldn't bear to throw it out because it had such great design, so easy to maintain and update. I moved on to two different PowerPCs after that, added a G3 PowerBook, a borrowed G4 for doing EQ/Keyboard magazine work, and now have a dual G5. So I'm no Mac hater! I do most of my music work on Windows machines, though, because a lot of the software I use doesn't have Mac versions.

Oh! That's allota Apples.

But don't you think it’s the innovation that causes obsolescence rather than vice versa? If that weren’t true, Steve should give back the plane.

I too have a bunch of Apples, including a G3, G4 Powerbook, and G5 (dual 2.7).

My gripe with Apple is that I think they’re biting off a little more than they can chew. I’ve found (and my Apple service reps have also indicated) that the newer and faster the computer, the less tolerant it is for error. Whereas the older computers had a comfortable window in which to operate, if a tiny thing is out of place on the new ones, they misbehave.

Perhaps complexity at the expense of reliability is the cynical boardroom decision – that customers are more interested in speed and sophistication, than reliability and robustness. Or maybe I’ve just had a little bad luck lately. I would say that after the problems arise, Apple’s service has been excellent. But I’d rather not know that.

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips