Flash pots...

[Silvertone]

I am thinking of making four flash pots for my band to use at the local clubs we gig at. I make the ones where you put a small tin can on a piece of wood and run a thin wire through the bottom of the can, and then attach electrical cords, a switch, and a plug into a wall outlet. A small amount of black powder is put into the bottom of the can, and when you hit the switch, the thin wire shorts out, creates a spark, and ignites the black powder.

My question would be, what would the acceptance rate of club owners be opn this, and what would the liability be?

Anyone have experiences using these types of flash pots?

Is there anything safer out there?

[Zeromus-X]

Well, there's two ways to go about this.

The first is to simply not tell the club owner you're going to use the pyrotechnics. This is also known as "never being booked again". The reason I even state this choice is because if a club owner sees a flashpot rigged together by hand, and they care about their club, they're not going to let you use it.

A "small tin can", as you mention it, scares me. Do you have any idea of the amount of power these things can harness? Accidents do happen, and shrapnel really sucks. During a test run at a gig we had, I managed to blow up a hardened STEEL flashpot cup, as well as force the base itself (which was much thicker) to become crushed from the force, because I used two *teaspoons* too much powder. That's not a whole lot of excess.

It's been my experience that club owners frown upon pyro being used unless you've got a minimum of a 10-12 foot overhead clearance and a 5-foot radius around the actual unit itself. We've played with much less than that, but it's really unsafe, and the more you look at it the more you'll realize it's not good. I've got a really good picture of a giant ball of fire heading straight for me because a sonic pot had rattled the base loose from the flame we were using, causing it to angle straight towards me without realizing it. Because my five foot radius was more like a foot-and-a-half radius, that situation could have been a lot worse than it turned out!

The second choice: If you want to stick with powder-based effects, search for ULTRA flashpots. Don't use the sonic powder in their standard pots; they sell one called a Volcano that's got a lot more rigid walls so it doesn't blow the pot up with it. They can be found for dirt cheap -- as little as $29-$39 per pot at some online places. The powder is just as inexpensive, and safer than doing it yourself.

Le'Maitre makes pre-mixed pods, but they're a lot more expensive. Nice though!

Look into getting a license if you can. Club owners seem to be a bit more lenient if you can flash a card saying you know what you're doing.

[meegaleedo]

+1

I nearly blew a guy up one night an number of years ago. 4 beats before the pot was to go, this drunk bastard just walks up to the stage where the pot was and, FWOOSH, no more eyebrows. I have not used flash pots again. I also know a guy who spent one Christmas in the hospital with burns from a pot that malfunctioned.

Plus, do you really want to add to the smokieness to most clubs.

[Rimmer]

Originally posted by Silvertone
I am thinking of making four flash pots for my band to use at the local clubs we gig at. I make the ones where you put a small tin can on a piece of wood and run a thin wire through the bottom of the can, and then attach electrical cords, a switch, and a plug into a wall outlet. A small amount of black powder is put into the bottom of the can, and when you hit the switch, the thin wire shorts out, creates a spark, and ignites the black powder.

My question would be, what would the acceptance rate of club owners be opn this, and what would the liability be?

Anyone have experiences using these types of flash pots?

Is there anything safer out there?

I doubt you will get a licence to do Pyro in most places without a qualified Pyro person and a visit from the Health and Safety people. I'd give it a miss if I were you. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Rimmer

[Zeromus-X]

Since you're going to do it anyway, at least consider using a metal bottom instead of wood. The powder gets hot fast, and you don't want the wood catching on fire and burning the place down.

I still say don't do it at all unless you have the right tools, not a homemade job. I don't have a license or anything, and I had fun with it, but all it takes is one mistake and you won't forget it.

[klik]

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission, I say. That said. Do a test or two in a small, not well-ventillated room and see how far the powder goes while ignited and all that, how long the smoke lingers, if it leaves a residue if you could use a little more a little less. If you experiment with a new technique with a club owner's gear at stake, you could get a bad rep that would follow you. I've seen fire breathers that gave club owners tingling in their left arm. But nothing caught fire, nobody was hurt and no detectors went off or fire inspectors were present so they were hired to come back. Take a calculated risk and make sure a spilled beer or some jostling doesn't complete the circuit with the wires on the floor or the tin can. Tell whoever's pulling the trigger what to watch out for.

[Rimmer]

If you go ahead with a home made firework display, I think your mad..

:D

Rimmer

[Fender_guy666]

Right now I am extremely into this stuff, and went as far as making a site to safely teach other enthusiasts to be able to be safe while having fun. Not making pipe bombs or somthing for a bang. http://www.geocities.com/the_pyro_stuff
Under Fuel air explosions (FAE's) and fireballs, I have a way and a link to another way to make these. Also under salutes I have the formulas for flash powder, that when lit flashes out of existance leaving you momentairly blind, now thats a flash pot. But being its almost 3 times stronger than black powder you need to take more safety precautions. If you need any ideas on somthing just ask me.

[Fender_guy666]

Safer would be using compressed air to shoot a powder like Napathaline(moth balls) or non-dairy creamer into a cloud then igniting it. This needs practice and a bit of open space, which somtimes is hard to come by during a gig. The powdered moth balls makes a thick black mushroom cloud of smoke though. Which when outdoors is awesome, but not so much indoors.

[Rimmer]

I just did a gig in London, Uk and we were sent two confetti canons with maroons (the bit that goes bang). I hadn't used them before but my collegue had. We set them both up in the metal canons supplied and set them off on a stage during a climax to the gig. I must confess, even those little maroons shook the stage when we set them off. They are seriously dangerous...


Rimmer

[Rimmer]

Originally posted by Sal Tornabene
Cans of propane are a cheap alternative to the dilemma. Put one on each side of the stage and open the nozzle on each on about three turns. Make sure not to open them too far or disaster may occur. Position them back from the front of the stage eliminating the chance of a patron getting hurt. Then take one of those electric charcoal grill lighters and duct tape the trigger so there is always a flame. Tape the lighters to a guitar stand and position it just close enough to the propane tanks so the flames are constant. Add a good quality fog machine or two to the mix and it will look like your band is playing inside the crater of an active volcano! This effect will make posuers like Rammstein look like grade school kids.

You can't be serious... :D

Rimmer

[JUDAH]

Your homemade flash pot is crazy. First buy a dual plug metal wall box and steel cover to fit. If you know someone who welds have them weld a 2" tall piece of 1 1/2" steel pipe to the steel plate. Before welding drill a hole in the side of the pipe to put your ignition wires in. I also recommend using speaker terminals to tie the power and ignitors together. If you don't have that kind of access...go to www.theatrefx.com they sell every for you. Homemade $10-15 purchase $50. I recommend buying flash paper and sparkle additive. It will give a nice flash with a sparkle effect. It's also a lot safer! and cheaper. Great Effect!!! This is what I use on each side of our tomb at Easter when it opens.

bcircuit

[Rimmer]

Originally posted by JUDAH
This is what I use on each side of our tomb at Easter when it opens.

bcircuit

You have a Tomb?? :eek:


Rimmer

[meegaleedo]

I have used wood bottomed flash pots. Usually 2x4 bottom and actually 2x4 sides too. Big heavy mothers. 2 bolts up through the bottom connected to 120 V. I then used a nut and wing nut for each anode to connect a strand of wire between the two. Fired off a few times outdoors will put a nice layer of carbon on the wood. Flash pots were controlled by a circuit that was key protected and the actual controler was a momentary switch so there was only juice to the pot for a brief moment. If the pot did not fire. it was disconnected, loosely covered and dowsed at the end of a show.

Not that I reccommend any of this now! ;)

[scmok]

Originally posted by Silvertone
I am thinking of making four flash pots for my band to use at the local clubs we gig at. I make the ones where you put a small tin can on a piece of wood and run a thin wire through the bottom of the can, and then attach electrical cords, a switch, and a plug into a wall outlet. A small amount of black powder is put into the bottom of the can, and when you hit the switch, the thin wire shorts out, creates a spark, and ignites the black powder.

My question would be, what would the acceptance rate of club owners be opn this, and what would the liability be?

Anyone have experiences using these types of flash pots?

Is there anything safer out there?

What you should use is electronic dimming ballast.

Recall the flashing effect of the old fluorescent lamps when you turn them on ? This is very strong flash effect comparable to flashlight. You can buy different color lamps in the market to provide more variety. Just that you can only play this about 1,000 times with a normal fluorescent lamp.

Electronic ballast solves the problem and you can use the lamp for thousands of hours without darkening the lamp. I've made a converter that convert the loudness of sound to the control signal for electronic ballast so that the lamp flashes in accordance with the bass beats. COOL !!

[caguile]

This just seems like a bad idea.

You should light your farts instead. Much more impressive.

[grimaila]

The price you pay may be in lives.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/21/nightclub.fire/

Mike

[slystewart]

I like many others in bands ..setting up sound and lighting equipment on various stages or in some cases corner of rooms,sometimes the last thing on your mind is the saftey of not only yourself but the people who come to see us.
More powerful lights and stands all over the place plus god knows how many power sockets and cables...and some times we are wraped up on what it looks like and sounds like...

Having just seen the news from the U.S. will see things a bit different now.....all the best to you all play it well ..look good and be safe...Stewart UK

[Rimmer]

Originally posted by slystewart
Having just seen the news from the U.S. will see things a bit different now.....all the best to you all play it well ..look good and be safe...Stewart UK

Ironically, it's point that I have been trying to get across. Professional pyrotechnics aren't necessarily that dangerous. If you know what you are doing and have some training, then it can be a safe and awesome sight.

Ignores the rules and you may end up cooking yourself, and the audience..

:(

Rimmer

[scmok]

Most lighting equipment inherently present fire hazard due to the excessive amount of heat generated. An approved lighting fixture is safe only if the user follow guidelines about ventilation and minimum spacing from other material.

When I mention about the dimming ballast, what I have in mind is safety above everything. I haven't elaborated on the safety issue. Here it is : :D

For a typical filament lamp, 90% of light becomes heat whereas fluoresent lamps has 5 times more efficiency. A pair of 40W T8 tubes or energy saving lamps gives the equivalent lights from a 500W stage light. Also, with the arrival of electronic dimming ballast, you only need to use a traditional 10V analogue voltage to drive a bank of over 10 fluorescent lamps. Using light blubs will require over 2500W which translates to over 20A at 110V. Enough to turn your power extension cord to sausage if you don't use multiple power outlets.

[ATOMICDOG1]

This is a link to a ccompany that sells pre packed pyro, they are put into plastic cartridges that then plug into special fixture via two prong receptical (round pins, further apart than US ac plugs). The cartridge is then set off by a DMX control system. This is, of course, more expensive than the home "recipes" that I've seen posted, but they are very consistant, and it is, consequently, much easier to anticipate how they will behave. Making it much safer for everyone. Notice that the safe working distance and height is listed for each kind of effect. If the moron who set up the pyro in RI was stupid enough to not be paying attention to these warnings (if he was using pro gear and not playing mad scientist with his chem set) he would have either used a different effect or forgone pyro all together on such a confined stage with such a low ceiling. And what about a f@#$ing fire extinguisher for god's sake!?

Sorry for the rant, but I've been a touring sound tech for quite a few years, and I've seen too much amature bullshit pyro blow up in peoples faces, both figuratively and literally. I'm supprised that the tragedy in RI isn't a much more common event, considering all of the weekend warriors who insist trying to play with gunpowder.

http://www.theatrefx.com/store/commerce.cgi?product=standard_cartridges

[acesclone]

I am Gene Simmons in a KISS Tribute band so you know how much pyro we use. As of now EVERY venue we have booked has NIXED all pyro since RI. The regulations on pyro are stiff and I suggest you forget it. Even with eight years experience and NO accidents we can't get liscensed. Fire Marshall's are not giving the OK right now. Maybe after it blows over. Personally if I was a band I would work on my stage presentation, musicianship, and light show. The funny thing is, the lights we use are WAY more dangerous than the pyro. Yet there is NO regulation of them!?!?!

[scmok]

Originally posted by acesclone
I am Gene Simmons in a KISS Tribute band so you know how much pyro we use. As of now EVERY venue we have booked has NIXED all pyro since RI. The regulations on pyro are stiff and I suggest you forget it. Even with eight years experience and NO accidents :p we can't get liscensed. Fire Marshall's are not giving the OK right now. Maybe after it blows over. Personally if I was a band I would work on my stage presentation, musicianship, and light show. The funny thing is, the lights we use are WAY more dangerous than the pyro. :D Yet there is NO regulation of them!?!?!

:pCongratulations ! But better not to try your luck too often or you run out of it. PYRO shuold be used only in open space, and away from the crowd. It is a health hazard that no way of handling it in closed chambers can be considered good.

:DAgreed ! Stage lights are way too hot to handle and draws too much electricity. But licensed electricians that worth their salt should know the precautions. The rails and the ways stage lights are hanged has been designed to provide sufficient clearance for ventilation. Newer stage lights are even better in enclosure and ventilation. My favorite is always lower powered alternatives such as the dimmable multi-color fluorescent and CCFL tubes.

It is always my belief that if the lights can behave quickly and subtly enough, it can provide no less enjoyment and sooth to our mind than the unlimited stimulation of our senses. I see little need to employ blinding and deafening devices.

Life is wonderful ! Don't risk yours and others' for a moment of extreme stimulation. :)

[The Mowerdude]

Originally posted by Silvertone
A small amount of black powder is put into the bottom of the can, and when you hit the switch, the thin wire shorts out, creates a spark, and ignites the black powder.

I've read this entire thread, every post. Kudos to those that have tried to impress upon us all the extreme need for safety. However, I need to share my own experiences so that we might be able to help save someone a lot of pain.

A basement band I was playing in, back in the mid 70s was really getting into the idea of using flash pots. We had no idea what we were doing. We made our own pots out of coffee cans. Each can had a chunk of wood in the bottom. Then we nailed a baby food jar lid to the wood and a nail on either side of the lid. We filled the lid with black powder and stretched a strand of steel wool across the powder between the nails. Since this was an unproven, we decided to test it outdoors first. VERY WISE DECISION!! Black powder is extremely powerful. The coffee can exploded into hundreds of metal shards with one of them imbedding itself into an oak tree inches from my head.

THAT'S WHEN WE LEARNED THAT MAGICIANS, PRO ROCK BANDS AND OTHER SHOWMEN USE FLASH POWDER, NOT "BLACK" POWDER!!

Black powder is used to reload guns. It has an explosive force slightly less than dynamite, but not much less.

Flash powder is what photographers used before the invention of flash bulbs. It is still used in theatrics and gives the flash, smoke and pop needed to impress the audience with nowhere near the volatility. It stills needs to be handled with care, but if someone insists on making flash pots, they should always make sure that they use "FLASH" powder and NOT black powder.

BTW, model rocket ignitors work very well for igniting the flash powder.

[coyote-1]

I made some flashpots recently. Standard formula - coffee can on wood bottom.

First key: definitely use pro flash powder. Black powder creates too much concussion. Flash powder blasts bright without concussing your coffee can out of existence.
Second: use LESS THAN 1/2 TEASPOON. Creates a great effect.
Third: Place it HIGH ENOUGH that it can't blow up in someone's face. Which leads to...
Fourth: Use them ONLY OUTDOORS, in places where there's NOTHING above.

Model rocket igniters do work, but they are not properly timeable. Better is a camera flash capacitor and a pair of leads in close enough proximity that a spark may jump between them.
Originally posted by The Mowerdude
It stills needs to be handled with care, but if someone insists on making flash pots, they should always make sure that they use "FLASH" powder and NOT black powder.

BTW, model rocket ignitors work very well for igniting the flash powder.

[robare99]

We used to use homemade pyro at every gig about 5 years ago. But I'll never go near it again since the Great White incident.

[Never_Grew_Up]

Why not use some 300 - 500 watt portable halogen worklights as moles instead? One on either side of the drum kit & 1 on each side of the stage. Face them at the audience & flash them when you want a flash effect. You can use them as often as you want in the course of an evening without reloading. Less chance of running afoul with the fire marshall or the club owner.

[unbridled]

Go here:
http://www.starmgc.com/

They have info on licensing available and have great prices. Their customer service is good too.

You can buy flashpots for $29 so why build your own?

No, I don't work for them

[Rockin' Chicago]

Originally posted by Silvertone
I am thinking of making four flash pots for my band to use at the local clubs we gig at. I make the ones where you put a small tin can on a piece of wood and run a thin wire through the bottom of the can, and then attach electrical cords, a switch, and a plug into a wall outlet. A small amount of black powder is put into the bottom of the can, and when you hit the switch, the thin wire shorts out, creates a spark, and ignites the black powder.

My question would be, what would the acceptance rate of club owners be opn this, and what would the liability be?

Anyone ALIVE have experiences using these types of flash pots?

Is there anything safer out there?

After you fill those soup cans up with Red Dot gunpowder, bury them in a big bag of flower.
Now there's an effect.
You might want to test it before the neighboring businesses close for the day and the club's still serving dinner.
:freak:

[Dan Finnell]

Do a Google search for the band: Great White. Think about how you'ld like to have that on your conscience for the rest of your life. Theses kind of things are great fun for sure, but things can go real wrong, real fast. Better to put your time and money into something less risky. The payoff may be better.

[Craig Leerman]

There are some things that should not be done by those not trained and certified. PYRO is right up there at the top of the list (along with rigging and power distribution)

My thoughts in no particular order:

The small effect that the pyro will have on your presentation is in no way enough cause for the possible loss of life that a pyro accident may incur.

The cost of doing pyro correctly, (permits, training, certification, initial cost of hardware, cost of expendables) and the cost in time (pulling permits, Fire Marshal walkthroughs, material testing) is not worth it until you get to playing the arena circuit.

The money spent on doing pyro, even unsafly or illegally, could be spent better elsewhere on lighting, stage clothes, cds, advertising, etc


If pyro is percieved to be "vital" to the stage presentation of a musical group, then the group needs to practice more, and learn how to perform and entertain. Lighting, pyro, and other special effects are there to ENHANCE a performance, not create one. A band should be able to simply walk onstage under a single white light bulb and entertain an audience. If they can't do that, then I feel they should not be onstage to begin with!

Unless you are a "cover band" or "tribute act", the goal is to stand out from the crowd and be differnt. Anybody can fire off a flash pot. Bands should find their own look and style, not simply use cheap theatrics that all the other groups have used. Get a "look", by dressing or using makeup. Paint a backdrop, color co-ordinate your amps and drums, use props, etc. With the exception of Grunge rock and Pop, all the really famous bands have their own look and style, onstage and off! Be different and inovative!

[Zeromus-X]

Originally posted by Craig Leerman
A band should be able to simply walk onstage under a single white light bulb and entertain an audience. If they can't do that, then I feel they should not be onstage to begin with!

No, not at all correct. Well, I suppose if you're known as a boring live band, maybe. The point of being a band is to entertain the people at the bar. You are their entertainment. Club, bar, amphitheater, whatever. More often than not, that means more than hanging a light bulb and playing your music. (Granted, this also depends on the kind of music too, but your statement is pretty much blanketing them all, which is wrong IMO.)

Fear Factory's first tour when they regrouped had a similar situation. They had the availability of almost a hundred colored Par 64 cans, moving-heads, you name it, already mounted and ready at the club. They chose to light a blue light on each end of the stage to somewhat illuminate the band. And it was shitty. If I wanted to listen to the CD, I'd listen to the CD.

Unless you are a "cover band" or "tribute act", the goal is to stand out from the crowd and be differnt. Anybody can fire off a flash pot.

How many bands are using flash pots? Using them is indeed "different". Anybody can, but nobody does. Not that I'm condoning it or anything, but if everyone was firing off flash pots, none of us would be having this conversation... either because it'd be common, or because we all blew ourselves up.

Many years ago, I used sonic flashpots (the *boom* ones, not the *flash* ones). Used at the right place, they'd blast a low bass sound that would kick the ass of everyone present. I had my share of problems and near-deaths, too, I'll admit, but I'll be damned if people didn't remember it.

[biff todd ted]

pyro flashes are just plain fucking gay.


kiss did it. cool. live in the now. your not going to impress me with a flash of light thats been around for 35 years.

it just makes me think of rednecks playing neon pink charvels with leather pants and vests with long hair thats thin on top. mix in some "mississippi queen" to taste. i see hooplheads bumbling around thinkin their fuckin flash pots are going to make them the greatest band ever.


im tellin you, kids and old people make the god-damndest decisions.

but if you must do this shit, also haul around your fire egstinguisher, medical kit, and wear your safety goggles for that part of the song.

[biff todd ted]

fire + Rammstein playing in an arena = acceptable

rednecks wearing sweatpants/teenagers/weekend warriors + dingy club nobody wants to be at anyways + fire = a hooplehead maneuver/homosexual

[Never_Grew_Up]

A sucky band with a wicked cool stage show might draw 'oohs and aahs' from the drunken crowd, but those of us who are 'in the know' will still say "Big deal, they spent a bunch of money on movers/lasers/fog/pyro, etc. The lead vocalist was flat, the lead guitar player's idea of dynamics was loud and louder, and their original lyrics sound like they were written by Rainman".

A an incredibly tight and talented band that just stands in their street clothes and plays without engaging the crowd is boring. I saw The North Mississippi Allstars do this and was disappointed because I'd heard good things about them.

Doing cool effects on the club circuit can be a way to distinguish your self from the other bands that just have a tree on each side of the stage with 4 PAR38's, but if people buy your CD at the merch table and then listen to it later (after they've sobered up) the music should still be able to stand on it's own. That way they'll play it for their friends that weren't at the show.

BTW - A cool stage show doesn't come across on the radio.

[Zeromus-X]

Originally posted by Never_Grew_Up
A sucky band with a wicked cool stage show might draw 'oohs and aahs' from the drunken crowd, but those of us who are 'in the know' will still say "Big deal, they spent a bunch of money on movers/lasers/fog/pyro, etc. The lead vocalist was flat, the lead guitar player's idea of dynamics was loud and louder, and their original lyrics sound like they were written by Rainman".

Those "in the know" aren't the ones that you're generally playing for, either. If the bar is full of musicians then sure, but typically the only ones "in the know" at the bar or clubs are the ones behind the soundboard... and the person writing the check cares more about the "oohs and aahs" from the drunk people.

Kinda playing devil's advocate here, since I don't use the shit anymore, but I'm just saying -- it has its place, and it gets people's attention. Obviously you wouldn't use it at a record exec party or anything, but if it's going to draw you a crowd at the bar, get you paid more, and you're willing to risk the liability and assume responsibility if you burn the place down... well, there you go. As a patron, I don't mind if bands use it (though I've never seen a single local band aside from the one that I was in use it).

Saying "it's dangerous!" is a dumb excuse; it's all dangerous. I was at a show a few months ago where someone moshing flew up onto the (short) stage, slammed into the PA column which wasn't secured, it leaned back and the top cabinet fell forward into the crowd. As it fell, it hit the side of a tripod of Par 38 cans, which also fell straight into the crowd and hit the ground, shooting out quite a few sparks. So, we'd better not use Par cans or speaker cabinets, since they could hurt people and burn the place down!

/beats dead horse

[Never_Grew_Up]

"...Those "in the know" aren't the ones that you're generally playing for, either. If the bar is full of musicians then sure, but typically the only ones "in the know" at the bar or clubs are the ones behind the soundboard... and the person writing the check cares more about the "oohs and aahs" from the drunk people..."

While this is true, being a big local bar band draw will only get you so far. If what you want is a record deal and the opportunity to play bigger venues you're going to have to impress more than the club owner & the drunks. I have known several bands with huge local and reqional followings that could never quite make that jump to the next level. Great fun to watch at a club, but couldn't get airplay or the right attention for their MUSIC. One in particular was an incredibly talented group (1 guy went on to be a high school band director so he actually had technique & theory) but they had a kitchy show with clever props & even a disco version of "Rocky Top" that got them branded as a great bar band but not much else. When you're single & in your 20's it's fun to drive 3 hours for a 2 day gig, then another 4 hours for a good wedding reception gig, but by the time you hit your 30's or 40's you might get sick of busting your ass day-in and day-out, not to mention not havin a life outside of the band: owning a house, being married not divorced, having kids that you get to see.