Powered Cabs

[7lacuna]

I'm a studio engineer recently recuited to put together a small PA system... and I find I don't know what I'm doing... which seriously cramps my usual know-it-all style.

A simple question to those here who do know what they're doing.

We are looking for powered speakers, sufficient for shows in mid-sized halls, churches etc. Everything will be miked or lined in: drums, guitars, bass, keyboards, vocals.

It's not my job to worry about budget. My job is to know about options, degrees in quality between different brands and models, and what size speakers is adequate for the task. So far I've only considered using Mackie SA1232s. I don't know if Mackie speakers are well-thought of, or what other options are in this speaker-size range. Maybe these speakers are overkill for what we need, but we'd like to be ready for shows in large halls. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[BillESC]

The Mackie SA 1232's are generally a well though of active speaker. You might do well to consider the KV2 series of active cabinets as they are smaller, louder and more accurate.

www.kv2audio.com

[7lacuna]

Thanks Bill. I'll add the KV2s to my list for consideration and research. I'm learnin' from scratch here. The Mackie SA1232's were brought to my attention through a friend, but I've no idea what other, similar speakers are in the field... so I'll check the KV2s out. Thanks.

[moody]

You do know you'll need subs don't you?

[dboomer]

Originally posted by 7lacuna


We are looking for powered speakers, sufficient for shows in mid-sized halls, churches etc. Everything will be miked or lined in: drums, guitars, bass, keyboards, vocals.

It's not my job to worry about budget. My job is to know about options, degrees in quality between different brands and models, and what size speakers is adequate for the task.

If you are asking if powered speakers can be of good quality the answer is a resounding YES. Some of the world's BEST speakers are self powered ... namely Meyer Sound Labs (meyersound.com).

What is adequate for the job is difficult to assess. It depends on the room size, the level required and the quality necessary ... the real question is do you have the budget for what's necessary?

[7lacuna]

I think we have a fairly high budget for cabs, db. Like I say, I'm more interested in what models and brands folks think deliver the goods, so it's good to see you pluggin the Meyer speakers... more for me to look into.

Hey Moody, can you, or anyone, clarify your comment that we "need" subs? Do we? I think our average gig will be in medium sized halls, and will require only modest volumes.

It's true, we want the option of being able to rock pretty good when circumstances permit. But our philosophy is to keep the PA as simple as possible (which is why we're looking for active speakers). If we can do without subs we will, but if it's standard, or necessary to use them to get a clear, rockin sound... well then I guess we need them. I just don't know.

[BillESC]

Subs accomplish two things.

1. Add richness and presents to the overall sound.

2. Allow your full range cabs to concentrate on the mid and highs which they will be better be able to do not having to deal with the lows. They will be louder and more articulate.

Are they an absolute must for all gigs... No. Having them is a good idea though.

[moody]

Originally posted by 7lacuna
I think we have a fairly high budget for cabs, db. Like I say, I'm more interested in what models and brands folks think deliver the goods, so it's good to see you pluggin the Meyer speakers... more for me to look into.

Hey Moody, can you, or anyone, clarify your comment that we "need" subs? Do we? I think our average gig will be in medium sized halls, and will require only modest volumes.

I'm not the person to clarify that as I'm not that experienced - but if you are going to running bass and kick drum through the PA then you will need some kind of sub.

Basically, keep the bottom end stuff out of your vocal mix and it will sound better.

[B. Adams]

Meyer is about as high priced as they come. You're talking about somewhere around $4k-$5k per box, so unless you've got a hell of a budget, you might as well just get them out of your head. If you do have the budget for Meyer, then by all means go for it.

KV2 ends up being about half the price, if I remember right, so you'll still need plenty of cash, but they're good.

The better Mackie speakers are definitely something to look at, but stay away from the 450 and 1530. The 1232 and 1521 both look OK.

Yorkville is another popular option. I have 2 EF500P's and 2 LS800P's, and they work very well. I also have 2 older NX520P's, and while they are good speakers, I don't use them as main FOH speakers. They make decent monitors though. The Yorkville LS800P stomps the Mackie 18" sub, by the way.

The better Mackie and Yorkville powered speakers are all under $1k per box, so that should give you a rough idea of what you're looking at.

There are a few other good powered speakers out there, FBT comes to mind, but they tend to be more expensive than Mackie and Yorkville for the same SPL.

You are going to want subs, especially if you're running a full backline through FOH. If by medium sized you mean more than 50 people, and you want the kick drum to be felt as well as heard over a full band, then there's no doubt. You may be able to get by with one sub, if it's a small room, or no sub if you're not concerned about a full bottom end. Bass, kick, and keys eat up a ton of LF, so plan accordingly.

Don't forget about things like monitors, cables, snakes, distro, cases, and extension cords. That stuff all adds up in a real hurry. You also might need to think about how you're going to move all this stuff around.

[Rbts]

Forgive me, but...

It is really difficult to have this conversation without some knowledge of the budget. Once people start talking about the money, is when you find out what they "really" want to do.

Who is going to be the actual engineer?

My opinion is that next to a good engineer (or sound tech), good subs are what make a system really kick.

however... without a good engineer....maybe you are better off without them.

Consider this... adding subs to your system will cost somewhere between an additional $2,000 to 4,000. Are you OK with that idea? (If you have the additional $ 4,000, by all means get some good subs... you can always turn them off later if they turn out to be more trouble than good)

[abzurd]

It's still a work in progress, but here's just about everything in the, less than $1000, range.

POWERED SPEAKER CHART (http://www.nextexitrocks.com/files/poweredsp.html)

As for subs, if you want to sound "authentic" then you'll need em. I see you want to mic keys, drums, bass. Even at moderate SPL in smallish places you'll still get much benefit.

Subs are also the dancer's aphrodisiac. ;)

[Audioeast]

I guess we really need to know, is what is going through this system?

The Mackie have great drivers, great speaker managment, and - OK power amps, which have had a history of over heating.

For lightweight low budget it's tough to beat the Yorkville NX550P (12"+1" - 550w) and NX750P (15" + 1" 750w) , and for larger stuff the EF500P (15" + 2" 800w)

EV SX series also has some decent offerings in the powered speaker game - such as SxA360+ (12" + 1" 500w)

there are also some gems in the FBT line, but there made in italy so service could be a headache

how many channel do you need?

Drums going through this system?

[Brad Harris]

My suggestion, since your saying your going to be playing anywhere and everywhere you can (supposedly), I suggest NOT buying FOH speakers and amps, but everything else you require for running monitors/FOH.

Why? Well, not to put anyone down, you have NO EXPERIENCE with the live end, do you even know what your output requirements are? bandwidth? headroom? dispersion? number of cabs? ground stack? fly points? power required/availiable?

This year I'm heading out on a few tours spanning 4 months, I'm bringing everything but FOH speakers (and in 1 case, monitors as well), and everything else is coming with me. From my end, this also accomplishes 1 additional task that it may be the same for you, less required time to setup/teardown as it is the venue/promoters responsibility to provide the racks and stacks.

Now, it is a little more PITA as it is a different rig every night, but our rider takes care of quite a bit of that, it is still that I probably won't see the same 2 cabinets at all out on the tour (Each tour is a different venue tartget).

If you go and play a club or venue with a system already installed, you can use your mics, cables, mixer, rack of toys, etc, and just give them a mono send, L+R send, 4.1 5.1 etc surround, L/R/sub, L/R/Sub/Tweets, or other combination for your FOH sound (if they are setup to do so).

With a few companies that I work for, if we put out a bid for a show like that, depending on the layout of the venue it would be M2D's, MSL4's or a combination including (but not necessarily), UPM front fills (flown or stacked), and monitor wise, MSL2a side fills over 650 subs, and FOH would have 1/2 a dozen 650's as well(less if we know more detail).

Generally, production companies will essentially 'overkill' for the application for a few reasons, 1) HEADROOM, I'd rather than have the capability of going stupid ear bleading loud than not being able to get over the crowd. 2) DISPERSION, the MSL4 boxes are a 40x40 box, more than 1/side is required, usually we bring 4/side, but we can do up to 8/side just like that, and if the throw is longer, we bring in the lo-mid boxes as well to let the MSL4 push the hi-mid/hi all the more.

So what I'm saying is wait on the FOH boxes, those will be the most detremental to the sound if you don't buy what is required, rather than the flavour/deal of the week. Rent the front end, and evaluate what you like and works for your applications, sure its still money out your pocket not recouping what you've already spent, but its money well spent in the long run.

Currently, I'm heavily debating the FOH rack&stack issue, but there is just way too much variables for me, I'd be looking at a minumum 8 box rig, scalable down to 1/side, boxes are to be flyable with susspended boxes undernieth, not too many of those in the self powered category, and they don't come cheap.

Companies w/in ear shot of me have these boxes for all of the situations that I'd encounter, and in most cases, the exact same speakers too, so while I'd like to, it doesn't make sense, but I'm still really considering 8 15/2 boxes with subs, but then other people already have them, spent the money, and I can get a good deal for rentals.

I don't know where your from, but the above may apply, otherwise it may not (also, yellow pages aren't the best place to find production companies in your area), just mention where your from, and chances are, one of us knows a few good-great companies close(ish) to you that can help you out.

Sorry for the possible poor layout, I'm tired, I should be sleeping, oh well, joys of the gig