need help simulating an orchestra

[djmojo]

So Im using a sequencer and Im trying to simulate an orchestra... Im having alot of trouble getting the "orchestral stabs" to work properly... does anyone know how they work?

mainly, which instruments are involved, how many of each and which notes each one plays, not the specific notes but something like: violins play the third, tubas play the root, and so on... or do they usually play the same note?

hope this makes sense, Im having lots of trouble with this... thanks.

[billsworld]

There are two issues at work here...the voicings in terms of root/third/etc., but also the voicings in terms of placing each sound's note in the proper range for the instrument you're trying to simulate. The chord voicings will depend somewhat on personal taste, but will also be influenced by the instrument range factor. And as far as getting that right, the best way is to study some basic orchestration. There are a ton of different books on the subject, most of them college textbooks which can be found for a reasonable price on half.com. A couple of favorites of mine are:

Sounds and Scores: A Practical Guide to Professional Orchestration by Henry Mancini

Orchestration by Walter Piston

Principles of Orchestration by N. Rimsky-Korsakov

All three of them give you some background into what note ranges the different instruments can play, and why you would use,for example, the lower part of the clarinet's range to create a specific kind of mood musically.

[djmojo]

Thanks.

Im using samples that are limited in range to the actual ranges of all the instruments... Im just basically trying to figure out which mix of instruments and the types of chords that are being used in powerful film score type music... Im studying music by Bill Brown right now (Rainbox 6 series most specifically)... trying to figure out how he gets those powerful stabs... Ive figured out that I think its mostly string sections, but there seems to be some sort of brass in there too, but I cant figure it out, and whenever I mix in my own brass it sounds NOTHING like this at all...

I can get close with just strings and a timpani hit... which is what I think is giving that powerful sound... but then the texture just isnt quite right... either its a woodwind or a brass instrument thats missing, but I cant figure out what...

[billsworld]

Originally posted by djmojo
... Im studying music by Bill Brown right now (Rainbox 6 series most specifically)... trying to figure out how he gets those powerful stabs... Ive figured out that I think its mostly string sections, but there seems to be some sort of brass in there too, but I cant figure it out, and whenever I mix in my own brass it sounds NOTHING like this at all...

I can get close with just strings and a timpani hit... which is what I think is giving that powerful sound... but then the texture just isnt quite right... either its a woodwind or a brass instrument thats missing, but I cant figure out what...

When you try brass, are you going mostly with trumpets/trombones, or heavy on french horn? As a general rule, horns play a lot more in orchestra than trumpets do. Also, there are balance issues when trying to balance samples, because brass samples seem louder in comparison to string samples, whereas in your basic orchestra, you're going to have 40-50 strings compared to 2-4 trumpets and 4-8 french horns. So you might try pulling the volume back on the winds to see if you can get a more realistic balance. Burying the brass section comparatively can add that tone color without overpowering the strings.

[djmojo]

yeah I read somewhere that there is usually only 2 trumpets and whatnot and then the rest is french horns and that other bass french horn thing, I forget the name lol (no not Tuba)...

but you just gave me sort of the answer I was looking for .... LOTS AND LOTS of strings ;) I can achieve that "less brass" sound by adding some low pass filters...

thanks... any other tips you can come up with? if not, Ill probably just make a couple sample songs and post them for your thoughts, if thats okay.

Edit: removed some of the smilies... I use too many still trying to break the habbit.

[billsworld]

While the standard string section has first and second violins, viola, cello, and bass, you will find that sometimes each of those parts are split, so you could have two notes for each section...usually basses in octaves, cellos with two chord tones, spread out like fifth and root tone, usually only one viola part because it's enough smaller of a section than the violins that you don't want to weaken it's part, because it's not any louder than the violin, and often two notes for the second violins and two for the first section.

You probably don't need to tie up too much of your resources on woodwinds, but having an oboe, bassoon, a clarinet, and at least one flute, mostly pulled back in the mix like mentioned for the brass, will add that color to the overall effect. Then with your brass section, anywhere from 2 to 4 trumpets, up to 4 french horns, 2 or possibly three trombones, and tuba will fill out the tone quite well.

Play with the balance of all the parts until you get what you're looking for, but you definitely want the strings to dominate.

[djmojo]

hmmm... so my string sections for the most part should be playing in 5ths? I had them all going in unison, that might be part of my problem... sometimes the highstrings were playing a chord tone while I had a cello playing the root or something like that... never thought of 5ths tho, and I assume that the brass for the most part would all be playing root tones, especially on the "stab" effect Im going for.

[billsworld]

For a basic stab, I've always approached it like this:
Bass-root
cello-5th, next octave root if usign 2 notes
viola-3rd
2nd violin-could be anything really, but usually 5th, or if you're doing something with 7th's or some such, put the added tones here...but that's just personal preference

1st violin-if you really want to emphasize the root of the chord, put it high in the range here...otherwise, whatever works for you

Going heavy on the root tones really weakens the rest of the chord, I think. So you might want to make sure that you have plenty of instruments covering the other chord tones so they don't get lost, and all you have is what sounds like a whole orchestra hitting one note in unison.

[Etienne Rambert]

Sounds and Scores: A Practical Guide to Professional Orchestration by Henry Mancini
----
I learned what little I know of orchestration, listening to 1960's movie music - particularly Henry Mancini. Also, (controversy coming) Klaus Ogermann's orchestral collaborations with Antonio Carlos Jobim.

Mancini is great for learning orchestration.

Very simple melody line.
String chords floating softly in background providing texture only.
French horns or winds playing ONLY counterpoint.

I don't necessarily use the specific instrumental string patches
on a synth though. I almost never use the orchestral string patches - violin/viola/cello, because the string pads sound better to my ears.

For instance, I use the string pad from a 16 year old 8 bit Kawai K-1 for all my string parts. That's because the old 8 bit sound of that pad approximates the sound of the string parts I'd hear on AM radio in the 1960's & 70's Pop songs. (Mancini, Percy Faith, Nilssen's "Everybody's Talkin'", Tony Bennett").

I have used trombones in place of French horns. I've used French horns in place of trumphets. It depends on the quality of the sample and the needs of the song.

My approach to chords is uneducated. Low instruments (cellos/violas for the 1st & 3rd notes. Violins for the 3rd & 5th notes.) Tails of 7ths/9ths/6ths, I'd opt for lower register instruments. But I have a string sound I always use, the old Kawai K-1 string pad. So I don't need to worry about where to put violins, violas, cellos.

Ditto for brass. Lower instruments in lower ranges. Higher in upper. French horn trombones for 1st & 3rd, trumphets, coronets for 3rd & 5ths. I play major 7ths or minor 7ths, 6ths, 9ths, inter alia, using the low register instruments normally.

I'm listening to Nino Rota's score for "Amarcord" a lot now.
I notice the tails he puts in at the end of string chords, flatting notes almost inaudibly, the give the chord a ephemeral, melancholic quality at the very end.

[billsworld]

I have to admit that, while I studied orchestration in college along with my composition classes, I probably learned more about real life orchestration from sitting in the bass section of the university orchestra...and experimenting with "serious" music with my writing. I learned that even though some instruments have fairly wide ranges, the musicians may or may not like playing in certain parts of their instrument's range, sometimes because of mechanical limitations of the horn's design. While that may not apply to simulating an orchestra, I do try to take into account how experience tells me the different instruments behave in certain parts of their ranges. My school was way to conservative to use something like the Mancini text in classes, but I've always thought it was a great book. Mancini's work applies more directly to pop music, particularly since he had such a strong jazz influence in his writing. We had the great fortune to have Jerry Goldsmith as a visiting professor for 5 years in a row when I was in college, and everyone studying composition got to have private sessions with him when he was on campus. If you want to know when that was, the first year he came to my school for his 2 week residency, he brought his latest project for us to screen and critique a couple of weeks before it was released in theaters. That project was the Stallone film "First Blood", so you now know that i went to college in the early 80's :)

We got to spend some time talking about writing for films and TV, and it never took much to get him in full ramble mode, talking about the "old days" when he was first starting out. He used to tell us that back in the 50's when he was just starting out in films, the only jobs Mancini got were the ones where they wanted something "pop" sounding. When they wanted someone young, but wanted a more traditional, "serious" score, they went to Jerry Goldsmith, or one of the younger Newmans.

But I digress...

I know what you mean about using a certain instrument's string sound because it sounds better to your ears. I'm actually still kind of partial to the string pads from the old Akai AX73 analog synth not terribly realistic attack-wise, but the sustained notes sounded so lush...just like a huge string section.