I've Assembled A Spreadsheet On Modes

[WillPlay4food]

I posted this at another forum and didn't get much response so I'm reposting here. Maybe you folks have some ideas or can use the spreadsheet I built.


I've assembled a <100KB spreadsheet (http://dtibs.home.comcast.net/Modal_Stuff.xls) that I'd like people to check out. I've been trying to wrap my brain around scales and modes so I put this file together. I was hoping the theory gurus could take a look and make sure I have the technicalities correct?

Also, is there any technique I can use to get this into my head and into my fingers? The 2nd tab in the spreadsheet contains 2 octave 5-string fingerings for F Major and its associated modes. The bottom half of the 2nd tab contains graphics that show differences between the F Major scale and the modes (1 for each mode).

I'm going to start practicing but I was hoping there was some method other than rote to get this into my head. Does anyone have any ideas?






Bueller? . . . Bueller? :D






Also, here's something else I figured out:


I've figured out some more stuff about modes. For example, while figuring out what scales make up modes of another scale, I found a pattern emerged.

Using C Major, the modes of this scale can be identified like so:
Dorian is based on b7 of Major scale = Bb Major
Phrygian is b6 of Major scale = Ab Major
Lydian is 5 of Major scale = G Major
Mixo-lydian is 4 of Major scale = F Major
Aeolian is b3 of Major scale = Eb Major
Locrian is b2 of Major scale = Db Major

So, from a Major scale, you can derive the modes using b7,b6, 5, 4, b3, b2. If you notice, all the modes that create minor triads are based on bX of the scale while modes that create Major triads are the 5, 4 & Ionian modes.

Another thing I noticed is how the intervals change between modes. We know the Major (Ionian) is made up of W-W-H-W-W-W-H, but what intervals do the mode use? I've put together a chart below:


Ionian = W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Dorian = W-H-W-W-W-H-W
Phrygian = H-W-W-W-H-W-W
Lydian = W-W-W-H-W-W-H
Mixo-Lydian = W-W-H-W-W-H-W
Aeolian = W-H-W-W-H-W-W
Locrian = H-W-W-H-W-W-W


The intervals rotate backwards one step as you go up each mode.

[bassplayinguy]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food
I posted this at another forum and didn't get much response so I'm reposting here.


Ungrateful bastards!!

[Jazz Ad]

You're kinda taking things backwards but only the result counts.
A mode is a scale played from a certain degree. So yes, of course, intervals are going to rotate when you list them. That's kinda the point.
If you had read the FAQ, you'd have saved a lot of time trying to figure things out. :)

It can't hurt turning them inside out over and over though. Keep going.
Once you figure it out it makes plain logic.

[WillPlay4food]

I did read the FAQ forum, but noyjing I saw in there was as simple as my little interval rotation chart in my previous post. As a matter of fact I don't think I've seen mode scale explicitly spelled out. This reason is why I threw together my spreadsheet.

If nothing else, writing out the scales multiple times has helped me see some patterns in the scales.

For example, C Major has no sharps/flats. C# Major has 7 sharps. Total = 7

F Major has Bb. F# Major has 6 sharps. Total = 7. Non-sharped note in F# M = B.

Bb Major has Bb, Eb. B Major has 5 sharps. Total = 7. Non-sharped notes in B Major = E & B.

So, I might forget F# Major, but if I remember F Major, then I know F# Major has 6 sharps and B isn't one of them.

It might not seem like much to anyone else but it's helping me wrap my brain around scales.

I've been playing for < 2years so this might be common knowledge for everyone else, I'm just hoping that someone else on their scale-assimilation journey is helped by my posts.

[WillPlay4food]

Just-A-Bump

Should I bother posting this stuff? Is anyone getting any use from this?

[snailplow]

Buy these books.Adam Nitti recommended them to me years ago,and they've helped me tremendously.Copy the Titles and ISBN numbers and do a search on them through Google.com.

-5-string bass---> by Brian Emmel--->ISBN#--0-931759-61-7

-The Bass Grimoire(It's written for 4 string basses,but once you have the modal concept down,it'll apply to any bass.)--->by Adam Kaoman--->ISBN#--0-8258-2181-9

-Bass Fitness--->by Josquin Des Pres--->ISBN#--0-7935-0248-9


There are only 12 notes and 7 modes in modern western music,and music theory is like math,in the fact that it always comes back around to itself,but on an "elevated" level.Sort of like a spiral staircase.............................confused yet?

[Zomby Woof]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food
Should I bother posting this stuff? Is anyone getting any use from this? Yes, please post this stuff. Who knows, it might spark a theory discussion, an unusual thing on this forum. :eek:

I wouldn't be surprised if a discussion of modes reads like Latin to many who post here. ;)

[vote4dicktaid]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food
For example, C Major has no sharps/flats. C# Major has 7 sharps. Total = 7

F Major has Bb. F# Major has 6 sharps. Total = 7. Non-sharped note in F# M = B.

Bb Major has Bb, Eb. B Major has 5 sharps. Total = 7. Non-sharped notes in B Major = E & B.

So, I might forget F# Major, but if I remember F Major, then I know F# Major has 6 sharps and B isn't one of them.


I never thought of that. Cool.

An alternative to the Circle of Fifths, which you should check out, it moves around the keys in fifths/forths and is agreat tool not only for remembering accidentals in different keys, but also for chord relationsships, relative keys, and such.

But you might know that already... :)

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by vote4dicktaid


I never thought of that. Cool.

An alternative to the Circle of Fifths, which you should check out, it moves around the keys in fifths/forths and is agreat tool not only for remembering accidentals in different keys, but also for chord relationsships, relative keys, and such.

But you might know that already... :)

Yea, I know the circle of 5ths / cycle of 4ths and I agree it helps me to remember the latest # or latest b (flat), but not all of the accidentals. I know the order of #s = F, C, G, D, A, E, B, and the order of flats is Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb. The order of sharps follows the cycle of 4ths and the order of flats follows the circle of 5ths. I can remember that F Major has Bb so that makes F# Major easier to calculate then it is to remember that F# M = F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#, F#. Of course on the bass, as long as I start on the right fret then I only need to work with intervals.

I just hope that at some point this all makes sense to me. :confused:

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by snailplow
Buy these books.Adam Nitti recommended them to me years ago,and they've helped me tremendously.Copy the Titles and ISBN numbers and do a search on them through Google.com.

-5-string bass---> by Brian Emmel--->ISBN#--0-931759-61-7

-The Bass Grimoire(It's written for 4 string basses,but once you have the modal concept down,it'll apply to any bass.)--->by Adam Kaoman--->ISBN#--0-8258-2181-9

-Bass Fitness--->by Josquin Des Pres--->ISBN#--0-7935-0248-9


There are only 12 notes and 7 modes in modern western music,and music theory is like math,in the fact that it always comes back around to itself,but on an "elevated" level.Sort of like a spiral staircase.............................confused yet?

I've checked out the Bass Grimoire. As far as I can tell, it just shows fingerings for the scales and modes on the neck. Am I missing something?

I picked up Bass Fitness many moons ago. While I can see the benefit of the exercises and even do them from time to time I've been concentrating on musical exercises vs. the chromatic exercises in the Bass Fitness book.

I'll check out the 5-string bass book. I've also been working the lessons on Adam Nitti's site. I highly recommend them to everyone who wants some musical ways to practice scales, modes, and hone their technique.

[snailplow]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food


I've checked out the Bass Grimoire. As far as I can tell, it just shows fingerings for the scales and modes on the neck. Am I missing something?


You probably already know this,but since all of the mode's finger patterns fall in a certain order,position-wise,so do their names.
You can remember the order that the names fall in (& in effect the patterns)by using the 1st letter in each of the mode's names to make this sentence:"I don't pay Lydia much attention lately."......Yea,the sentence has some shitty grammar,but it will help you remember what the modal order is.(Actually there's no real starting point.Ionian is considered the "1st" mode because of it's notes being all natural notes.)

So here's the trick.

I---------------->Ionian.
don't----------->Dorian.
pay------------->Phrygian.
Lydia----------->Lydian.
much----------->Mixolydian.
attention------>Aeolian.
lately.---------->Locrian.

Notice that since both Lydian and Locrian start with the letter L,that we use the female name "Lydia" to differentiate where those two modes go.

[WillPlay4food]

Thanks, snailplow! :) I was wondering if there was some kind of memory trick to remember the mode names, kinda like "My Dear Aunt Sally" to remember order of math operations. At this time after writing the mode names so many times, I finally have the order down.

You don't have a way to remember fretting patterns based on what mode you're in, do you? That would be most excellent.

Right now I'm practicing the scales in two ways, the first is naming the note (either in my head or aloud) as I play through the scale. The second is by naming the intervals as I play through the scale (M2, b2, b3, M4, #4, etc.). I'm hoping that these exercises combined will drill all the modes into my head as well as cementing what note is at what fret in my head.

This has been very slow going (for me) because I can only play between 15 minutes and an hour each day (depending on the day) so I've been running up 2 scales per day where I play 3 notes per string and run up & down the strings. Then I move to the next note in the scale and run those notes up and down the strings. Here's a chart of what I mean:


C Major
B string = B C D
E string = E F G
A string = A B C
D string = D E F
G string = G A B (then work back down to the B string)

Now, move up a note:
C Major
B string = C D E
E string = F G A
A string = B C D
D string = E F G
G string = A B C (then work back down to the B string)

etc.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food
I did read the FAQ forum, but noyjing I saw in there was as simple as my little interval rotation chart in my previous post. As a matter of fact I don't think I've seen mode scale explicitly spelled out. http://duet.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145108

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
http://duet.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145108

Tell me, which table looks nicer? :D


I - Ionian - 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2
II - Dorian - 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1
III - Phrygian - 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1 1
IV - Lydian - 1 1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2
V - Mixolydian - 1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1
VI - Aeolian - 1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1
VII - Locrian - 1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1 1


or


Ionian = W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Dorian = W-H-W-W-W-H-W
Phrygian = H-W-W-W-H-W-W
Lydian = W-W-W-H-W-W-H
Mixo-Lydian = W-W-H-W-W-H-W
Aeolian = W-H-W-W-H-W-W
Locrian = H-W-W-H-W-W-W



I'm checking out that thread now. :)

[Jazz Ad]

Mine's got degrees too. :p
I think I can merge threads when we're over with discussin. :)

[sevenroy]

I've figured out some more stuff about modes. For example, while figuring out what scales make up modes of another scale, I found a pattern emerged.

Using C Major, the modes of this scale can be identified like so:
Dorian is based on b7 of Major scale = Bb Major
Phrygian is b6 of Major scale = Ab Major
Lydian is 5 of Major scale = G Major
Mixo-lydian is 4 of Major scale = F Major
Aeolian is b3 of Major scale = Eb Major
Locrian is b2 of Major scale = Db Major


I understand modes, but this confused the hell out of me. :confused:

Care to explain?

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by sevenroy


I understand modes, but this confused the hell out of me. :confused:

Care to explain?

What I was saying is, if you take the Ionian mode of a scale, then flat the 7th note, you'll get the Major scale that makes up Dorian mode. For example, C Ionian's 2nd mode (Dorian) is based on Bb Major. If you flat the 6th note, you get Ab. Ab Major is the basis of the C Phrygian scale, and so on.

Get it?

If not, let me know and I'll try to explain it a different way.

Also, notice that all the minor modes of a scale are based on flatted scale tones, and the Major modes (I, IV & V) are not.

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Mine's got degrees too. :p
I think I can merge threads when we're over with discussin. :)


Aaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!! Nooooooo!! It'll be lost forever in the bowels of that mystery forum!!!! :eek:































:p

[sevenroy]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food


What I was saying is, if you take the Ionian mode of a scale, then flat the 7th note, you'll get the Major scale that makes up Dorian mode. For example, C Ionian's 2nd mode (Dorian) is based on Bb Major. If you flat the 6th note, you get Ab. Ab Major is the basis of the C Phrygian scale, and so on.

Get it?

If not, let me know and I'll try to explain it a different way.

Also, notice that all the minor modes of a scale are based on flatted scale tones, and the Major modes (I, IV & V) are not.

Ok, now I get it. I was thinking you were saying Bb was the basis for the Dorian mode of C major, which would be D Dorian.

Sorry.

[WillPlay4food]

Originally posted by snailplow
[snippity-snip]
There are only 12 notes and 7 modes in modern western music,and music theory is like math,in the fact that it always comes back around to itself,but on an "elevated" level.Sort of like a spiral staircase.............................confused yet?

If you could explain your idea of the spiral staircase I would greatly appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like it's right there in front of my nose, waiting for me to grab it, but it's just not totally sinking in yet.

[catphish]

Here's another take on modes that helped me alot:
Modes spreadsheet (http://slowchildrenproductions.com/scales.xls)

[shaffle]

The spreadsheets are great but its a bit busy. Modes are actually very simple by design, but difficult to explain. All you are doing with modes is playing the same root scale but starting at different degrees. In Cmaj, the second degree is D (dorian) and you are still playing the Cmaj scale, but starting from D (DEFGABC). Same with the 6th degree (aeolian) ABCDEFG but a totally different sound to the progression. If you go through each scale degree following this simple concept, the modes will become apparent and open up a whole bunch of note choices that can add interesting options to your bass lines, especially if you are reading the chords from charted music or notation for the first attempt through an unfamiliar piece.

Try this - works for any key:

I Ionian major
ii Dorian minor, but perfect 6th
iii Phrygian minor, flat 2nd
IV Lydian major, sharp 4th
V Mixolydian major, flat (dominant) 7th
vi Aeolian true minor
vii Locrian diminished minor, flat 2nd and 5th
VIII (I) Ionian octave

Just keep playing the major scales in each key by each interval and you'll hear it. I suppose its intelligent to know the names, but not necessary to understanding the concept. It really is very simple.

[Smorgasboy]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food


This has been very slow going (for me) because I can only play between 15 minutes and an hour each day (depending on the day) so I've been running up 2 scales per day where I play 3 notes per string and run up & down the strings. Then I move to the next note in the scale and run those notes up and down the strings. Here's a chart of what I mean:


C Major
B string = B C D
E string = E F G
A string = A B C
D string = D E F
G string = G A B (then work back down to the B string)

Now, move up a note:
C Major
B string = C D E
E string = F G A
A string = B C D
D string = E F G
G string = A B C (then work back down to the B string)

etc.

If you seriously only have a short time to practice each day, I'm not sure you're practicing the most beneficial stuff.

Try learning each scale from tonic to octave--i.e. play the C major (ionian) scale from C up an octave to C. Learn the interval pattern on the fretboard. Now play the dorian scale from D to D and learn that pattern. Learn all the modal scales.

After all, the most obvious application for modes as a bass player is to look at a chord and know what scale will fit over it. When you see a C7, D7, E7 etc., you know "ok a mixolydian scale will fit over an X7 chord, and I know the mixolydian pattern". Likewise, when you see a Xmaj7, you'll know you can play an Ionian scale.

As you get more comfortable with the sounds and tonal characteristics of the modes, you might see a Amin7 and say, OK, I could play a dorian, phrygian, locrian, or aeolian scale over this chord, and choose the notes in you bassline, knowing they ill work, according to what would sound the best/coolest.

Trying to find mathematical patterns in western music theory is certainly worthwhile, but as a basic way to make that theory applicable to actually making music, I'm not sure its all that helpful. Rote memorization of scale shapes and their relationships to different chords will probably serve you a lot better!

...my 2 cents anyway...:cool:

[snailplow]

Originally posted by Smorgasboy


If you seriously only have a short time to practice each day, I'm not sure you're practicing the most beneficial stuff.

Try learning each scale from tonic to octave--i.e. play the C major (ionian) scale from C up an octave to C. Learn the interval pattern on the fretboard. Now play the dorian scale from D to D and learn that pattern. Learn all the modal scales.

After all, the most obvious application for modes as a bass player is to look at a chord and know what scale will fit over it. When you see a C7, D7, E7 etc., you know "ok a mixolydian scale will fit over an X7 chord, and I know the mixolydian pattern". Likewise, when you see a Xmaj7, you'll know you can play an Ionian scale.

As you get more comfortable with the sounds and tonal characteristics of the modes, you might see a Amin7 and say, OK, I could play a dorian, phrygian, locrian, or aeolian scale over this chord, and choose the notes in you bassline, knowing they ill work, according to what would sound the best/coolest.

Trying to find mathematical patterns in western music theory is certainly worthwhile, but as a basic way to make that theory applicable to actually making music, I'm not sure its all that helpful. Rote memorization of scale shapes and their relationships to different chords will probably serve you a lot better!

...my 2 cents anyway...:cool:

Hey Willplay4Food,I was thinking this same thing at work all night,and I was going to post it for you to read,but Smorgasboy beat me to it,and did a fine job explaining it.
If you don't understand it,keep reading it in sections until you do.It's a heck of alot easier to learn the modes this way,instead of the way you're doing it.

[WillPlay4food]

snailplow & Smorgasboy,

I think you two are correct. I'll modify my practice routine to include practicing all the modes to get the patterns under my fingers.

Also I need to work on my ear so I know when I'm hearing a C7 vs. CMaj7 vs. Cm7b5 vs. Cmin7 so I know what mode to play in. I don't work with sheet music too much, I just try to play along with whatever songs I'm listening to.

[snailplow]

Originally posted by WillPlay4food
snailplow & Smorgasboy,

I think you two are correct. I'll modify my practice routine to include practicing all the modes to get the patterns under my fingers.

Also I need to work on my ear so I know when I'm hearing a C7 vs. CMaj7 vs. Cm7b5 vs. Cmin7 so I know what mode to play in. I don't work with sheet music too much, I just try to play along with whatever songs I'm listening to.


Check this out.


http://www.playmusicfree.com/music_lessons/html/bass_lessons/bass_lessons.htm

[WillPlay4food]

Thanks for the link, snailplow! :)

I'm checking out the modal stuff now.

[WillPlay4food]

Jazz Ad,

Since this thread has fallen to page 5 (which is pretty much limbo for this place) maybe you should do that thread merge thingy into the Bass FAQ forum.

Thanks everyone for their input.

[WillPlay4food]

I've put up a webpage with all the major scales and their modes. I tried to make it so it's a 1 page printout.

Here's the linky. (http://dtibs.home.comcast.net/Modes2.htm)