Add subwoofer to small PA?

[tremendo]

OK, my IEM's are on their way. Now for our basic PA, I have been pretty happy with the sound out of the Mackie 808S into the 2 JBL SF15's for the vocals, for what we've been doing. But, it's basically only been vocals going through, very light drums occasionally.

With just a guitar, bass and drums band, if I add a subwoofer (via the pre-outs and a crossover), would that allow us to have the whole band through the PA as is? I know a better board would be much more efficient, but my drummer's willing to spend a few bucks and I want to use it best for our sound. Am I too ambitious thinking just adding a subwoofer could work for having the whole band PA'd?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by tremendo
OK, my IEM's are on their way. Now for our basic PA, I have been pretty happy with the sound out of the Mackie 808S into the 2 JBL SF15's for the vocals, for what we've been doing. But, it's basically only been vocals going through, very light drums occasionally.

With just a guitar, bass and drums band, if I add a subwoofer (via the pre-outs and a crossover), would that allow us to have the whole band through the PA as is? I know a better board would be much more efficient, but my drummer's willing to spend a few bucks and I want to use it best for our sound. Am I too ambitious thinking just adding a subwoofer could work for having the whole band PA'd? Either a pair of powered subs or a pair of subs and a power amp would help considerably with headroom. But do you have enough inputs on your current mixer to add everything you want to the mix?

[stunningbabe]

I always believed that we can never have enough of headroom. Just when it matters the most at the peak of your performance......the extra headroom ensures a really low distortion rate.

As dad always tells me....get the biggest power amp and subs you can afford...even though they may be a bit overpowered for the current application....at least you'll know you have enough power when the situation warrants it.

[tremendo]

At some point, we will get a better mixer. Right now, we can get by, using an external mixer we have if needed.

2 subs are needed, or 1 would mostly do the job? The $ for 2 subs is probably above our budget right now.

I looked at the JBL SF sub and I don't like the idea of a 2 x 12" sub. I also looked at the Carvin 1 x 18" subs. They have powered as well as un-powered. I've never worked with a Carvin sub, but I imagine it would do the trick.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by tremendo
At some point, we will get a better mixer. Right now, we can get by, using an external mixer we have if needed.

2 subs are needed, or 1 would mostly do the job? The $ for 2 subs is probably above our budget right now.

I looked at the JBL SF sub and I don't like the idea of a 2 x 12" sub. I also looked at the Carvin 1 x 18" subs. They have powered as well as un-powered. I've never worked with a Carvin sub, but I imagine it would do the trick. I don't know about that particular model,but what don't you like about a 2x12" sub? BTW,you've got a lot of checking out to do. Those are two models that I would probably look past.

[tremendo]

Originally posted by tlbonehead
I don't know about that particular model,but what don't you like about a 2x12" sub? BTW,you've got a lot of checking out to do. Those are two models that I would probably look past.

You are right, I don't know much about subs. The reason I mentioned the JBL SF is because those are the mains I have now, which I'm surprised but I have been pretty happy with.

Any recommendations for a reasonable cost solution to adding more low end and headoom?

[Rbts]

stuning babe's dad is probably right, and maybe if one is a stuning babe, there will always be fellas hanging around to help carry it all?

(no disrespect intended please...) havingto carry it all is the only down side to that plan. I love headroom. I am a believer.

[URSavage]

Here's what we did...

Amplifier - QSC PLX 1604 (bridged)
Sub - JBL SRX Double 15"
Crossover - dbx 223

We are running just the one double 15" sub in summed mono.

The idea was that we could add a 2nd sub at a later stage when we could afford it. Well it's three years later and for the venues we play it has been plenty of sub for us.

RUs

[tremendo]

Originally posted by URSavage
Here's what we did...

Sub - JBL SRX Double 15"

We are running just the one double 15" sub in summed mono.

RUs

Too bad it doesn't come with a roady.;)

I guess for the Sub it would be better to get a good quality speaker and amp. Glad to hear that one might do it fine. Where do you place it? Behind everything, or on 1 side?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by tremendo


Too bad it doesn't come with a roady.;)

I guess for the Sub it would be better to get a good quality speaker and amp. Glad to hear that one might do it fine. Where do you place it? Behind everything, or on 1 side? If I only had one,I would put it right in front of the stage in the center.

[URSavage]

Yup - I put it bang smack in the middle.

The female singer loves to dance on it / sit on it / lie on it ... :D :D

[bolisham]

Here is what we did for a very cheap sub. My friend had an 18 laying around. he said he would sell it to us for $20. We said we dont have anything to loose. We built an enclosure for it. We drew the plans and figured out the dimensions of each peice. Took it to lowes and they cut it out for us for free. Took it home and put it together with some drywall screws and wood glue. Got some carpet and stuck that on it. Looks pretty good. The materials cost around $40 plus the $20 speaker. The speaker is a piece of shit. I think a better speaker would sound a whole lot better. But we have the box to put a better one in when we can afford it. But it works and is better than no sub at all.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by bolisham
Here is what we did for a very cheap sub. My friend had an 18 laying around. he said he would sell it to us for $20. We said we dont have anything to loose. We built an enclosure for it. We drew the plans and figured out the dimensions of each peice. Took it to lowes and they cut it out for us for free. Took it home and put it together with some drywall screws and wood glue. Got some carpet and stuck that on it. Looks pretty good. The materials cost around $40 plus the $20 speaker. The speaker is a piece of shit. I think a better speaker would sound a whole lot better. But we have the box to put a better one in when we can afford it. But it works and is better than no sub at all. So that's the kind of sub cab you decided on!:(

[bolisham]

Originally posted by tlbonehead
So that's the kind of sub cab you decided on!:(

We went with a sealed box. But not sure if this is the best. But it works.

[Audioeast]

Originally posted by tremendo
OK, my IEM's are on their way. Now for our basic PA, I have been pretty happy with the sound out of the Mackie 808S into the 2 JBL SF15's for the vocals, for what we've been doing. But, it's basically only been vocals going through, very light drums occasionally.

With just a guitar, bass and drums band, if I add a subwoofer (via the pre-outs and a crossover), would that allow us to have the whole band through the PA as is? I know a better board would be much more efficient, but my drummer's willing to spend a few bucks and I want to use it best for our sound. Am I too ambitious thinking just adding a subwoofer could work for having the whole band PA'd?

How about the Yorkie LS800P, (1500w active 18")you can come out of you powered mixer into the powered sub and then pass the signal to the top box with out cluttered cabling ....... (i know sounds freeky but Yorkville has made it possible to change the powered signal level to line level and still pass the powered signal through!)

now if thats too big i'd suggest the LS700P (dual 10" 700w active sub - very low profile)

If thats too much go to lowes and build a box, cut a hole and stick a $20 18" speaker in it?????wtf?

[tremendo]

Originally posted by Audioeast


How about the Yorkie LS800P, (1500w active 18")you can come out of you powered mixer into the powered sub and then pass the signal to the top box with out cluttered cabling ....... (i know sounds freeky but Yorkville has made it possible to change the powered signal level to line level and still pass the powered signal through!)

now if thats too big i'd suggest the LS700P (dual 10" 700w active sub - very low profile)

If thats too much go to lowes and build a box, cut a hole and stick a $20 18" speaker in it?????wtf?


Those Yorkville's would probably more than do the trick. Interesting concept with the LS800P accepting a powered input. I guess it tough to get even 1 good sub without dropping close to 1G.

I guess the Yorkville ES200's don't have enough punch? Their price and wieght are attractive.:D

[Singin' Dave]

Please excuse my complete ignorance here....I'm in a similar situation with a Mackie 808M, 2 mains (JBL Eon 1500's) and 2 crappy monitors (Yammy s12me's) and our mix is, as you would imagine with this starter system, weak. We're just starting out though....playing tiny little places, and I just bought a condo so I'm busted.

That Yorky Powered sub (ls800p) looks to be just the ticket to round out the sound, but a grand might be a little steep.

But if I could afford it, am I reading this right that you can run a 1/4" or XLR cable out of the Mackie and into the ls800p, then run a 1/4" or XLR cable from the ls800p into your mains? Sounds too good to be true. What line out of the Mackie would you use to the ls800p and if you have only one ls800p sub, how would you be able to run 2 mains on top of it vs. just one main?

[tremendo]

I think I understand this LS800P now...

In general, to go from the Mackie to a powered sub, you'd need a crossover. BUT, apparently that Yorkville would take the 1/4 speaker out from the Mackie. It says you can sum the signals to mono. That would be impractical, since even if it would work, you'd have both main speaker cables going to the subwoofer. I imagine if the LS800P speaker send is transparent, just run off of one speaker side to the sub. Unless you're really using the PA in stereo (yours is mono anyway).

[Singin' Dave]

tremndo:

Holy Cow!! That sounds like the perfect set-up for our rigs! I guess if you wanted to keep your PA as portable as possble and 700W sub was OK, you'd go with the ls700p (as long as it has the same functionality as the ls800p.)

Is tremendo's assessment of the hook-up correct, I wonder..... If so, great recommendation from Audioeast! No crossover or extra gear to buy except on more good speaker cable. man..I think I'm GASsing.

I guess my only concern would be that maybe if you are adding bass, kick drum etc. to the PA mix, would you driving the JBL's too hard, even if they were hooked up to the Yorky sub?


If this thing is as simple as it sounds, I may have to find some dough somewhere and order up! I think I'd lean towards the ls700p due to its smaller size, but is that enough thump? Probably (for our small PAs....)

What's a good price for the ls800p and the ls700p? I see musician's buy has them at $939 and $739 respectively. Seems like a decent price....

[tremendo]

Wow! Just got back from the local Yorkville dealer. Yeah, I had to hear 'em. Yorkville has some killer speaker, I was unaware of the extent of their line. The NY Rep happened to be there and I spoke to him as well. Here's what I got....

1) The LS800P is a friggin' monster! It's big and would be much more powerful than what we have as mains, and is also a "long throw", meaning not necessarily the best for small cramped gigs.
2) The ES200P with 1x10" actually has great sound, although with the 10" it's a little more "punchy". One of those on each side might be more compatible with the set up I have now. Also much easier to carry and lighter on the wallet.

I just spoke to the owner of the dealership on the phone. He likes the smaller ones, for portability sake and smaller venues. Using 1 or 2 of them, depending on the venue. I would need some sort of crossover, or he recommends a small Aux mixer, to just send the bass drumm, bass and other drums to the sub. But the LS800P would work if I get a larger PA system.

[Audioeast]

hhhm no crossover necesary,

for one sub.....go out of the the main outs on 808
one into sub and jump up to the top
the other out put would go directly into other speaker the ls800p has a variable filter you would ajust to 100-125hz

but the crossover would give you more control but it's not necesary

oh and the 800ps are not a grand - they are $859

also for smaller it's the ls700p you should look at, not the 200

[tremendo]

Originally posted by Audioeast

also for smaller it's the ls700p you should look at, not the 200

I guess the general feeling is that the ES200P would get drowned out very quickly with a live band. OK.

Setting up the sub through a main speaker would mean I'd be putting the bass guitar and all the lows through the mains, and that's my concern. (Also we don't have powered speakers.) My speakers were worked too hard at one outdoor gig where we had the bass guitar amp getting pickup by a drum mic and it sucked all the sound out of the mains, eventually blew a tweeter.

[DML]

As audioeast says the 700p for lighter not the 200p. 200p would not be best for your situation. I think it would be a waste of money for your situation.
"long throw" for ls800P's?. These are a bass reflex design- not a horn (yeah I know they say "horn loaded"; but it is not a horn). So I would say that "long throw" does not apply. The whole object of a sub is to move some air. For the PA you described the ls800P would be a much better match. Yeah, it may have more thunder than your mains - but that's OK. Run them from an aux send and bring them up to where they need to be. This way you will not be oversending bass info to your mid-high mains. And you will not be UNDERPOWERED on your subs, which is one of the largest mistakes people make; selecting an amp/speaker combo with no headroom is about as bad or worse than not having any subs.
I would suggest the 800p's over any powered subs (including yorkville's other subs). Perhaps one would work OK, 2 would be better.
Michael

[tremendo]

Thanks DML. Looks like the LS800's have the other advantage that if I upgrade the PA a little or a lot, the LS800's will always be useful.

The band is Guitar, Bass, Drums & 3 mics. If I ran the sub via and Aux mixer, what signals you I send there? Mostly Bass, Kick, and the rest of the drum kit? Would you put the guitar through the sub signal?

[Singin' Dave]

Thanks to AudioEast and DML for helping out a couple of guys looking to use their existing powered mixer with a powered sub. I'll add a couple more small questions.

I'm not sure if this is the case w/ tremendo, but I pretty much load most of the PA out of my basement, into my SUV and then into the small bars in which we play. The ls800p would probably be a beast for me to handle alone. Does the ls700p have the same functionality (i.e. you can set it up the same way as AudioEast or DML described for the ls800p?) 700w from the ls700p certainly does not provide as much headroom as the 800, but it should be Ok for smaller bar rooms, right?


As for running it out of the main outs on a powered mixer and its impact on the regular main speakers, I would assume you just keep the volumes low on the bass and kick drum channels, but turn up the powered sub, right?


I just talked to my band mates and I think we're now in the market for one of these things