Relating scales to chord progressions

[Force]

I'm a relative newbie at guitar and I'm making some tentative steps into improvising over what to me are complicated chord progressions. Without much knowledge of music theory I find it difficult to find scales that relate to the chord structure. Anyway I found a chart for Lullaby of Birdland and fiddled around with it to get what you see below. (I don't really understand diminished chords so I probably name them incorrectly). Can somone out there suggest scales to use as the basis for improvising over this? It seems to me that an Em scale works over parts of it but after that I get a bit lost.

[Em]Lullaby of [C#m7-5]birdland - [C#dim]that's what [B7]I
[Em7]Always [Cmaj7]hear [Am7]when you [D9]sigh;
[Bm7]Never in my [Bdim]word land
[Am7]Could there be [Adim]ways to re-[G]veal [C9] in a [F#m7-5]phrase how I [B7]feel.

[Em]Have you ever [C#m7-5]heard two [C#dim]turtle [B7]doves
[Em7]Bill and [Cmaj7]coo [Am7]when they [D9]love?
[Bm7]That's the kind of [Bdim]magic
[Am7]Music we [Adim]make with our [G]lips [Gdim]when we [G]kiss. [B7]

[E9]And there's a [Bdim]weepy old [Am]willow - [Am7]
[D9]He really [Adim]knows how to [G]cry! [B7]
[E9]That's how I'd [Bdim]cry on my [Am]pillow [Am7]
[D9]If you should [Adim]tell me fare-[G]well and good-[B7]bye.

[Em]Lullaby of [C#m7-5]birdland - [C#dim]whisper [B7]low,
[Em7]Kiss me [Cmaj7]sweet, [Am7]and we'll [D9]go
[Bm7]Flyin' high in [Bdim]birdland,
[Am7]High in the [Adim]sky up [G]above [C9] all [F#m7-5]because we're in [B7]love.

[Auggie Doggie]

You don't want to even try to squeeze scales into that...start off by finding the chord tones and use those as your framework.

If you're new to improvising, I would suggest you find something a little simpler....that's a beast! :p

[Poparad]

Alright, I'll give it a shot:

I'd like to note that this is not a beginner's tune for improvising. It's an intermediate level song, so if it's very difficult for you, don't let it get you down. However, if you can get this under your fingers, almost all other songs will be no more difficult than this.

Also, I've thrown a lot of theory in this. I didn't mean to, but you kind of have to with a song like this. If it's hard to grasp, take it in small portions. Theory is a valuable tool, but is often very overwhelming.

First of all, the dim7 chords in this song act as a 'leading chord' into the chord after it. The scale to play over dim7 chords is the diminished scale. It's constructed of alternating whole steps and half steps. You will end up with an 8 note scale, rather than a 7 note scale like the you have with the major scale.

For example, C#dim would be C# D# E F# G A Bb C C#
This scale lies really well on the top 4 strings:

|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|

This pattern repeats every 3 frets, since the scale is symmetric. If you need a reference note to get your bearings, the second note on the top string is a chord tone of a dim7 chord. So, over C#dim7, you could play this pattern at the 8th position (the second note would then be on the 9th fret, which is C#). You can also play this at the 2nd, 5th, 11th, and 14th positions.

When you shift up 3 frets, the last notes of the lower position will overlap with the first notes of the higher position:


|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Ok, so now that I've covered that, onto the song:



[Em][C#m7-5][C#dim][B7]

The first two chords are both found in the key of Dmajor, so that scale would work for that.

The diminished scale goes over the C#dim7 chord. One thing to note, that since the dim7 chord is symmetrical, you can spell it off of any of it's chord tones as being the root. In this case, I'd call it A#dim7 because that would make it easier to see that it's stepping up to B7 in the next change.

As for B7, You can play E harmonic minor, since it's going to an Em7 chord in the next change.



[Em7][Cmaj7][Am7][D9]

All of this works in Gmajor. Although, over the last chord (D9) there are other choices more interesting than Gmajor, but I'll leave it at that for now until you're ready for something more to work on.



[Bm7][Bdim][Am7][Adim]

Over Bm7, Amajor works well, and likewise over Am7, Gmajor works well.

As for the diminisheds, use the diminished scale. Once again, these can also be respelled to refelct that fact the the Bdim7 is also a G#dim7 stepping up to Am7, and Adim7 is also an F#dim7 stepping up to the G in the next line.


[G][C9][F#m7-5][B7]

This is almost entirely in Em. That C9 chord however is just thrown in to 1) sound cool and 2) annoy us soloists. :D Now we'll have to play 4 scale for the 4 chords. Tricky, but can be done.

G major would be my choice for the G chord (probably could be called Gmaj7 for all intents and purpouses).

For C9, I'll go with G melodic minor. The reason I do this is because C9 is a dominant chord (V), but it's I chord, F, doesn't follow it. Therefore I like to play Gmelodic minor, or from the perspective of C, C lydian dominant over C9.

Then E harmonic minor works over the F#m7b5 and B7(b9) chords.




[Em][C#m7-5][C#dim][B7]

Same as before

[Em7][Cmaj7][Am7][D9]

Same as before

[Bm7][Bdim][Am7][Adim]

Same as before

[G][Gdim][G][B7]

Gmajor would be fine for the G chord, and Gdim would be good for the Gdim chord, then Gmajor again for the second G chord.

The B7 would sound good with E harmonic minor. There are other choices, but this will be good for now.

[E9][Bdim][Am][Am7]

I would go with B melodic minor for the E9 chord. This is also called E lydian dominant, and works well for dominant chords that don't do a V -> I resolution. While the I, the Am chord, does eventually come, it doesn't come right away, so I'd go with this.

B dim would work for the Bdim7 chord, however, it's interesting to note that If you add an E to that chord, you get E7b9. You can then play A harmonic minor if you'd like. Both scale choices work equally well.


[D9][Adim][G][B7]

The first two chords here are much like the previous line. I would play A melodic minor on the D9 chord, then I'd think of Adim as D7b9, and play Gmelodic minor.

Then go to Gmajor for the G chord, and E harmonic minor for the B7 chord.

That's a lot of scales for those 4 changes, but you're kind of stuck having to do that since they don't hold any common scales between them.




[E9][Bdim][Am][Am7]
[D9][Adim][G][B7]

Same as the previous 8 chords.



[Em][C#m7-5][C#dim][B7]
[Em7][Cmaj7][Am7][D9]
[Bm7][Bdim][Am7][Adim]
[G][C9][F#m7-5][B7]

Same as before.

[Markf]

Poparad why would you use B melodic minor over E9, if E lydian
dominant is the same scale? It makes more sense to match the
letter names> E9th >E lydian dominant doesn't it? Thats con-
fusing!

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Markf
Poparad why would you use B melodic minor over E9, if E lydian
dominant is the same scale? It makes more sense to match the
letter names> E9th >E lydian dominant doesn't it? Thats con-
fusing!

You're exactly right. I like to think of all scales in relation to the root of the chord they're going over, such as E lydian dominant over E9.

The reason I mentioned B melodic minor, is because it's more likely that people who have done a little bit of study on theory know this scale, so it's familiar territory to banch out into other uses for the modes of that scale.

It's kind of like how when people first learn about modes, you learn about how they're all derived from the major scale, since everybody more or less knows the major scale. In the end, you get the most understanding out of modes when you think of them all as different scales with different applications, but when you're just starting out, it's easier to go from something familiar than to takle a load of unfamiliar material.

[keyplyr]

Chord Family - - - - - - - - - - - Scale

Major 7th - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Major or Lydian
Natural 4 or Sharp 4?


Dominant 7th - - - - - - - - - - Mixolydian or Lydian, b7
Natural 4 or Sharp 4?


Minor 7th - - - - - - - - - - - - - Aeolian or Dorian
Natural 6 or Sharp 6?


Half-Diminished - - - - - - - - - -Locrian or Locrian
Natural 2 or Sharp 2?

Diminished 7th - - - - - - - - - - - W Step, 1/2 Step Diminished

Dom. 7th, alt. 5th - - - - - - - - - - Whole Tone

Dom. 7th, alt. 9Th - - - - - - - - - - 1/2 Step, W Step Diminished

Dom. 7th, alt. 5 & 9 - - - - - - - - - Super Locrian

II-V-I in Major - - - - - - - - - - - - Major scale of the key

II-V-I in Minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - Harmonic Minor of the key

Dominant 7th Blues - - - - - - - - Minor Blues scale of the key

[Force]

Poparad, Auggie, Markf .. Thanks for your input. There's a lot to digest in there! It puts into perspective for me how complicated improvising is if you need to come equipped with so much knowledge to play over the changes. I guess I was expecting that there would be one or two scales that would work over the main theme and another 1 or 2 for the bridge. However I will give it a shot - you know, bite off more than you can chew then chew like crazy and see what comes out. Thanks again.

[IbanezenabI]

Phew! I suck with these songs with plenty of changes.. But when this dictionary and theory is under control and under your fingers it`s important that you continue your phrases through the chances. Maybe it`s better to change your musical idea to fit the next chord than just jump around one scale to another.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by IbanezenabI
It`s important that you continue your phrases through the changes. Maybe it`s better to change your musical idea to fit the next chord than just jump around one scale to another.

This is such a critical element to creating a great solo and too often guitarists just miss it. For horn players it's not so bad, because they don't have to physically shift to a new location for a scale, but often guitarists fall victim to disjunct lines that abruptly change as the harmony changes. That's why I approach my guitar in a more horn oriented perspective, in that I don't use scale box patterns, but rather, I think in terms of note names all the time. It's a lot to get the whole fretboard's notes in you head, but once you do, outlining harmony is so much easier and changes are a lot easier to nail.

[Markf]

whats a good way to learn all the notes on the fretboard? I
tried memorizing one fret at a time, but I was just memorzing
a bunch of random notes! That didn't seem to have any logical
connection. Surely by now, experience and past practice has
gleaned an orderly method for doing this which makes sense
yes?!!:confused:

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Markf
whats a good way to learn all the notes on the fretboard? I
tried memorizing one fret at a time, but I was just memorzing
a bunch of random notes! That didn't seem to have any logical
connection. Surely by now, experience and past practice has
gleaned an orderly method for doing this which makes sense
yes?!!:confused:

It took me about a year of constant work at it to get it to a usable level for me (still working on it though, not all parts of the fretboard are solid in my mind yet).

The way I went about it was I'd pick a new major or minor scale or mode or really any sort of collection of pitches that you want to work on, and use that when warming up for the day. I've just improvise melodies and say the notes out loud, try to run the scale up and down in different positions while thinking or saying the notes I was playing. I would only let myself go as fast as I could recall the notes; so if I knew the next note was on a certain fret by instinct, I wouldn't let myself play it until I could mentally recall the note.

Eventually doing this every day for a 1/2hour to and hour in a different scale each day I was able to get it down pretty good.

Also, picking a certain note and toggleing between that one and the one a fret lower, a fret higher, a string higher, a string higher and a fret lower, a string higher and a fret higher, etc... basically all the notes right around a specific one helped a lot. I would just go between them and say the note names out loud and do that in a number of spots.

Reading also helped with this a lot once I was starting to get it down. I did a Google search for flute and clarient sheet music and found a bunch of stuff and just used it for reading. There was a website posted in Guitar Jam a while ago that had a 5 part online book for jazz improvisation. There was one that was just simple melodies for sight reading, and I think that would be some excellent material to work on.

[nonreglA]

That tune as said above is not for beginners. The basic key is G major. If you can hear the families of chords chnaging their voices under the melody you're on your way.

Relative to G there's:
Em (6)
Cmaj7 (4)
Am7 (2)
D9 (5)
Bm7 (3)
G (1)
F#m7-5 (7)
and B7, which acts in conjunction with the F#m7b5 to form a 2/5 turnaround back to the Em

If you "force fit" or think of all the other chords as "passing tones", you can easily see how the entire tonal center of the song revolves around the key of G major.

Even in the bridge where you have:
E9 (still 6 to G)
Bdim or D#dim or Gdim - acts as an A7; 4 to the E9
Am (2)
D9 (5)
G (1)
B7 (3) acts as 5 for the E9
E9 (6)
Am7 (2)
D9 (5)
G (1)
B7 (3) acts again as lead in 5 chord for getting back to Em.

Think of it as a real hip 32 bar blues song in G of the form AABA. The bridge has 8 bars as does the chorus.

Once you get the tonal center in your head and can "play" with the "accidentals" in the key of G, you'll have no problem. The scale I'd try to master first if I were you is the G major scale. Become very fluid with it. Play it with your eyes closed, in your sleep, then you'll "hear" those other chords and appreciate how strategically they are placed to connect it all together.

First learn to play the melody perfectly note for note.

First learn to play the melody perfectly note for note.

First learn to play the melody perfectly note for note.

Next compare this song to Shadow of Your Smile (same key) and has some of the same chords and turnarounds.


Shadow (http://www.songtrellis.com/sounds/viewer$453)

I commend your transcription of the tune with chords and words properly placed. That took some time but made the discussion much easier.

[Redsweater]

To make this easier on you, a chord is derived from a scale. For example, Am and C are both from the C major (or it's relative scale minor, A minor). Now if you had the chords:

Am C

You'd play C Major over them. This is called the chord scale relationship. It's tough at first because this is a lot of information that needs to be processed and digested. (Think of it as eating a big sandwich. It's daunting, but if you keep chewing you eventually get it all down.)

This also applies to other chords, the basic pattern for this is:

I IIm III IV Vm VIm VIIdim

II, III etc are chords relative to the first chord.

Now, each chord is derived from the COROSPONDING mode.

For example, VIm is MINOR because it's mode is a minor mode, and VII is diminished because it's mode is dimished too. Are you starting to get it? If you dont, don't worry, it takes some time to digest. Just think about it in the shower or while taking a dump and youll eventually understand it.

[Force]

Thanks for more graet info folks. Some questions -

Keyplyr - If I get that correctly I can stay in the major (lydian) and sound OK all through a II-v-I? Ina tune with a different structure would I play the lydian over Imaj7; mixolydian over a v7 and aeolian over a II7? Would the same modes apply to other chords of the same family in the tune?

Nonreg1A - I think I get the point about the tonal center. What little improvising I've done has been around a single major or minor scale and I try to remember the diversions away from the scale that sound OK.

<<Next compare this song to Shadow of Your Smile (same key) and has some of the same chords and turnarounds.>>
I hadn't noticed that but Shadow was the tune that inspired me to try and improvise after hearing Herb Ellis play it. I've got a fair handle on it in a chord-melody style so I'll do some comaring and contrasting

<<I commend your transcription of the tune with chords and words properly placed. That took some time but made the discussion much easier>>

Thats an extract from a Chordpro format file. To try and improve my playing I've sought out charts from the "standard" repertoire and I transcribe them into Chordpro because it has a built chord dictionary and prints a diagram on the chart. Helped my chord vocab go from near nothing to something useful and I have my own personal fake book with my own versions/keys etc.

Redsweater - Have I got your post right - in C major say, I take the 1st, flat 3rd and 5th of the mixolydian mode and I get the IIm = Dm in C?

More musical homework for me tonight - thanks folks

[Redsweater]

Yes. You take the scale degrees. That's why theres no lydian suspended chords, the 4th is raised.

[keyplyr]

Keyplyr - If I get that correctly I can stay in the major (lydian) and sound OK all through a II-v-I?
Yes, that's one approach.
Ina tune with a different structure would I play the lydian over Imaj7; mixolydian over a v7 and aeolian over a II7? Would the same modes apply to other chords of the same family in the tune?
Yes again, if that's what you're hearing in your head at the time.

Please forgive me if I sound like I'm lecturing here, but trying to fit a particular scale into the right playing situation is like looking for the right size hole to fit a peg into. It's self defeating since a scale will still come off as a scale and will not say anything except "hey, I found a place to put this scale!"

Try looking at it from a different angle. We use pieces of scales to get from one place to another, from one idea to another. They are like ladders going up or down to various inspirations.

While doing so, the harmony can be restated, re-thought. The scale can be used to add tension tones, textures, suspensions, resolves, balance opposing motives, new motives... the list is almost endless.

Rather than seeking to find a place to use a scale, choose to draw your inspiration from the melody, harmony or rhythm. Listen to it. What does it say to you? What do you want to reply? Then say it. Use various scales to navigate around these statements and say things in different ways.

[Force]

Keyplyr - Yeah I understand what you're saying. My problem has been just finding a place to start sometimes and the information from this thread has really helped focus my ideas on how to do it. Taking up on nonreg1a's post I found that I could navigate my way through the whole piece pretty much in Gmaj and Emin with a few excursions. Once I can get started its just a matter of how much creativity I can bring to bear.