Debate on songwriting style and structure [Archive] - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

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jbh

06-11-2002, 09:55 AM

I have been going over this dillemma for some time now. Songwriting craft experts always say to get your songs critiqued, join clubs, and enter contests, in order to increase your exposure and experience. It always seems that these groups focus either on music that I would never listen to myself, or are so bent on playing by the rules and industry traditions, that I lose interest very quickly. Does this mean I will never "make it", simply because I am not willing to pick up the music industry's soap? Am I too artistic for my own good? Does it really matter that much? Anybody else go through this?:confused:

BryanMichael

06-11-2002, 10:08 AM

I hear you,
I often write in slightly unconventional forms, but often I find that forms and conventions serve a purpose. What kind of music are you writing?
I'm kind of a singer/songwriter type guy but my main influences are U2, REM, Rush, The Police, Peter Gabriel, The Beatles etc.
Pop/Rock/Alt stuff.
All of these artists tend to flirt with coventions and often break with them-but there are things that in general go into crafting music that will make it more accessible and "finished" sounding.
You do not HAVE to follow all the conventions to make interesting, compelling, entertaining music BUT if you want to be a "songwriter" then there is a LOOOOONG tradition of songwriting that all of those groups are commited to preserving.
How old are you? Influences? style?
I'm pretty open minded and have often found those "songwriting" forums too limiting because they can't appreciate where I'm coming from-but in general, the forms and structures can be applied with good results to just about anything! it's just how much you wish to apply them.
Give me an example, maybe I can help, you can take my opinion or leave it, but I promise to be honest and open minded :cool:
Peace,
Bryan

Stoney Stomp

06-11-2002, 10:38 AM

jbh

06-11-2002, 10:42 AM

I don't know...It may be just more of a personal issue. I think I come from relatively the same camp that you do (BryanMichael). My stuff is rock/soul/alt, I guess. Pink Floyd, REM, Aghan Whigs, Sly Stone, Neil Young are some of heros. All of them tended to bend things a little, but always remained musical. While so many songwriters are influenced by, or are playing in these genres, why do the contests always seem to figure you are trying to pitch songs to Faith Hill or Creed? If I write a song where the subject matter is heady or ambiguous, the critiquing people complain that they don't get it. Or if the structure is purposely altered they'll say that the song is not radio worthy. I don't really care if it is not radio worthy. Most stuff on the radio is downright awful, IMO. I then start to wonder if it really worth my time and money. That's not to say I have not learned useful information at seminars or classes, or through books I have read. I just start to wonder at what point it all becomes a barrier to creativity. Also, part of the problem I deal with is that I do not have much of an outlet for my art right now. I don't have the time to put together a band to play my music. Nor do I have the time to shop my stuff around to other musicians and producers. I have barely enough time to write music. Ok. I do find time to post messages.............:(

SomeGuyNamedRob

06-11-2002, 10:50 AM

How about something like Garageband.com? I post my stuff (which is unconventional) and have found that while you're always going to get the "it sucks" from people who would rather make safe, boring music, there are plenty of people who can appreciate the more "out there" stuff.

BryanMichael

06-11-2002, 11:01 AM

JBH-
Understood man-
But realize too that alot of bands that were considered "corporate rock" were just guys that sat around writing songs and hangin' out and then one day found themselves successful. Whatever is popular is the thing the next generation will rebel against. The first thing to let go of (for me anyway)was the idea that someone could "sell out" that someone was a "corporate rock" artist etc. There is music produced for easy bubblegum consumption and there always has been-But there is nothing WRONG with that. Britney? Backstreet Boys? pop/country? they are "entertainers" it's a dance and fireworks show and some people happen to be good at creating that kind of thing.
Some things I will never do because of "pop 40"
1. Repeat a chorus a million times at the end of a song
2. Modulate up and keep singing the chorus
3. Say the words "Oh girl"

But Nashville is a songwriters town-coffee houses, open mics, showcases-The song is the thing, and contests are usually put up by those interested in marketing the songs. Let's look at the Beatles: Pop/Rock songs alot of "girl" lyrics etc. but they are the cream of the crop. They took the conventions used them, expanded them, used them again, turned 'em inside out.
YES I have read all the books too. If you don't care if your stuff is "radio worthy" then why complain? No one will ever stop you from writing/recording/performing whatever you want. But if you want to be part of the MUSIC BUSINESS, then that's what the classes/seminars/ etc. are for. Or you can start a band and tour your ass off until people catch on to what you are doing :)

I really do understand what you are saying. Challenge yourself to write a "radio friendly" song or two. It is hard when you don't have an outlet-I'm also struggling with that too, but I'm recording at home right now so-that's my outlet. If you want to be an artist-go right ahead, If you want to play "the Game" you gotta play by the rules.

Peace man-
email me at tany time if you wnat to try and collaborate, that may unstick the wheels.

bryanmichael@juno.com

thelonius74

06-11-2002, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by jbh
I have been going over this dillemma for some time now. Songwriting craft experts always say to get your songs critiqued, join clubs, and enter contests, in order to increase your exposure and experience. It always seems that these groups focus either on music that I would never listen to myself, or are so bent on playing by the rules and industry traditions, that I lose interest very quickly. Does this mean I will never "make it", simply because I am not willing to pick up the music industry's soap? Am I too artistic for my own good? Does it really matter that much? Anybody else go through this?:confused:

Yeah...kinda gets on my nerves, because lots of books are about these subjects, and there's a songwriting clinic I used to go to just to see what other songwriters thought about my songs but I'd run into the same thing. So I quit going.

Understand where they're coming from though. Basically they are talking about getting your songs out in a commercial format. That's what a lot of the business of songwriting is about. It's not an aspect that I'm very interested in...but it is the demand of most.

Example. ..let's say you're a Frank Black freak. So you write in the styles of the Pixies. Not your normal everyday stuff. But if you write that style...then would it be safe to assume that you are also an artist or performer of your songs?

If you wanted to pitch those songs to Nashville and they had the Frank Blackness to them they wouldn't even consider you. Not in a million years.

Why do you think bands like Wilco have taken off? They're more country than country..they write from the heart..not by a math formula. They are to country what Kurt Cobain was to hair metal. I'm sorry to offend anyone in country, but it is a stone cold fact I have many friends in Nashville in the business. Well, for that matter it's not even a secret! Most listeners just don't think about it.

Now on the other side of that, could you sell your song to a Frank Black style artist?? Doubtful..someone like that probably has his own songs. So you have to think....are you a songwriter/performing artist or are you a songwriter?

jbh

06-11-2002, 03:48 PM

So you have to think....are you a songwriter/performing artist or are you a songwriter?

That pretty much hits the problem right on the head that I have been dealing with. I don't have the time, money, or connections to get a band together so I can actually play what it's my head. Nor do I have the time, money, or patience to deal with trying to get a gig or do any promotion. So I figure I'll focus on writing. But then I think I need some outlet, so I try out a songwriting club, contest, or critiquing open mike thing. The politics make me disinterested, so I go out and try to find some dude to play or collaborate with, and always seem to come up empty, because I have no money, time, or patience for all the crap.........AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

So then I go to HC, and waste time on the forum. (sigh).

SomeGuyNamedRob

06-11-2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by jbh

That pretty much hits the problem right on the head that I have been dealing with. I don't have the time, money, or connections to get a band together so I can actually play what it's my head. Nor do I have the time, money, or patience to deal with trying to get a gig or do any promotion. So I figure I'll focus on writing. But then I think I need some outlet, so I try out a songwriting club, contest, or critiquing open mike thing. The politics make me disinterested, so I go out and try to find some dude to play or collaborate with, and always seem to come up empty, because I have no money, time, or patience for all the crap.........AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!

So then I go to HC, and waste time on the forum. (sigh).

How about collaborating over the net with someone and posting it to a site for people to appreciate?

thelonius74

06-11-2002, 10:33 PM

perhaps you should think about slowly investing in a small recording setup. You can get going for a decent price. record your songs, build yourself a website, and get your tunes out there...if you're not gigging, it's definitely a viable way to get your music heard and get some feedback etc.

Nza

06-12-2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by thelonius74
perhaps you should think about slowly investing in a small recording setup. You can get going for a decent price. record your songs, build yourself a website, and get your tunes out there...if you're not gigging, it's definitely a viable way to get your music heard and get some feedback etc.

For real, though!

You want really cheap? My entire recording studio consists of this:

1 Tascam 424 Four-Track, used, $150
a bunch of crappy mics, probably about $200 for all of 'em
1 Boss Dr. Rhythm drum machine, used, $150
being able to be in total control of my music, priceless

:D

Seriously, though, that's my number one reason why I love the internet, cause it's giving us closet recording artist freaks some exposure that we would never get handing our home made CDs to our friends. Here's my web pages, if'n anybody's curious:

http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/nickaliscious
http://www.garageband.com/artist/nickaliscious/songs

Record everything, post everything that you can, clog the gears that the industry try to grind on the internet. You are music.

cool_E

06-12-2002, 07:32 AM

Here's the dilemma:

To "sell" songs you have to spend as much, or more, time
networking, marketing and pitching your songs than you
do writing. Also to sell songs, or anything else, you can
only sell what people are willing to buy. This means that
you need to understand the target audience or market
and then write songs that will appeal to that market.

Most of us just want to write and naively believe that the
magical song fairy will hear your work and pluck you out
of obscurity. Fat chance! If you are writing for yourself,
awesome! Then write for yourself and enjoy every minute
of it. Don't worry about what anyone thinks about your
songs. It doesn't matter. If you want to be a commercial
success the do the research, get off your butt and work at
it. Make goals, create plans and milestones that will get
you to those goals then WORK, WORK, WORK!

http://www.marketingyourmusic.com/contents.php

This site has some sound advice, check it out.

fingerpicker

06-12-2002, 07:41 AM

JBH- If you have the times to play on the internet, then you ought to have time to get more into your music. Do what was suggessted and get some inexpensive recording gear and fool with it for a while.

Also, disgruntled songwriters who preach that a certain type of music "sucks" really don't have much place in the music BUSINESS. Yes-its a business if you are planning to try and sell songs. Read Brians posts above, then re-read them.

I'm not trying to be too hard on you, but I had the same attitude and until I lightened up a bit and made my music more accessable to the masses, I was miserable. I'm not saying "sell out" (whatever that means!), just treat it as a business if you want to seriously sell songs.

Now if you want to write and perform your tunes at coffee shops/ or like venues and not worried about selling them then dis-regard the above.

The time spent reading this post could have gone to SONGWRITING!!!:eek:

jbh

06-12-2002, 11:08 AM

Thanks for the replies, everybody. I have managed to get some stuff recorded at home, and have some stuff posted on the net.
http://www.garageband.com/artist/jmiles . Yeah, I know... In all truthfulness, I don't need to make it big. But I am still very disgruntled. Much of it has to do with the lack of time I have. I have a constant battle of priorities when it comes to music and the rest of my life. The lifestyle I have chosen has given me little time to spend on writing and recording. The time I do have is so sporadic that many ideas and projects end up unfinished. My biggest problem, I think, is that I have a hard time finishing one thing before getting distracted by some other creative spark. I guess what I am so frustrated about is that I know what it takes to be successful in anything, but since music is my outlet and therapy, I allow too much dabbling and not enough follow through. I often feel that since I have to be so consistent in every other part of my life, my music is my one place where I can just be crazy, scattered self and won't get punished in some manner. The downside is that nothing gets accomplished. If I could just focus on one thing enough to get it so people can here it I feel very satisfied. Rarely happens, though. Even the days when I plan on working on a particular thing I often end up starting something completely different. Oh well. Just comes down to choosing what I want and sticking with it. That is, until the following week when I want to do something else!:o

Shit. I just realized this has really nothing to do with my original concern. Dammit. But I see that my disgruntleness has little to do with music industry shit, and almost everything to do with me. Did I also happen to mention I am a currently licensing counselor? I'll shut up now.

cool_E

06-12-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by jbh

Much of it has to do with the lack of time I have. I have a constant battle of priorities when it comes to music and the rest of my life.

I went to a sort of seminar once where we heard several
talks on various subjects. On of the talks was on priorities.
It was a good one. The basic message is simple:

Look at where you spend your time and energy, these
are your priorities.

OUCH!

The second part of the message is that you can change
your priorities if you really want to. It does take effort
and discipline and an ability to say NO to some people
and things that would drain your time.

Dave

Nza

06-12-2002, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by cool_E

The second part of the message is that you can change
your priorities if you really want to. It does take effort
and discipline and an ability to say NO to some people
and things that would drain your time.

Dave

Totally.

I'm gonna go home tonight and say NO, son, I'm not cooking you dinner, I'm not running your bath, I need to spend more time with my Four-Track :)

Then, tomorrow morning, I'm calling in to work and saying NO, I'm not coming in today, I need to get together with my drummer to work on this new one in 7/8. :)

jbh

06-12-2002, 01:40 PM

Totally.

I'm gonna go home tonight and say NO, son, I'm not cooking you dinner, I'm not running your bath, I need to spend more time with my Four-Track

Then, tomorrow morning, I'm calling in to work and saying NO, I'm not coming in today, I need to get together with my drummer to work on this new one in 7/8.

Yeah. In fact, I'm gonna tell my wife it's only her job to watch the baby from now on. Serves her right for not letting me buy more equipment so we could afford health insurance. ;)

ozraves

06-12-2002, 02:11 PM

The thing I've learned is that you need to write songs for yourself. We've got a song that starts with the chorus and ends on a bridge. No one would ever tell you to structure a song that way but it works on this particular song.

The business thing is a separate issue. I studied guitar with the late Eldon Shamblin. You probably have no idea how he is but he is in the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame with the Texas Playboys. He also did a long stint with Merle Haggard. He also worked as a studio player, composer and arranger. He thought if you were good that you'd get two or three shots at having profitable runs in the music business but that they never last forever. His hero was Charles Ives, who was active as a composer at the turn of the last century. Ives said: If a composer "has a nice wife and some nice children, how can he let them starve on his dissonances?" So, Ives worked in insurance and did quite well.

Eldon never liked the starving. He'd been acclaimed throughout his career. One time Rolling Stone declared him the greatest rhythm guitar player ever. Yet, he had to work as a piano technician and a furniture refinisher to make ends meet. Many great bands that came through Tulsa, Oklahoma, found that the guy who was called to repair their keyboards was the legendary guitarist who first popularized the electric guitar.

Eldon advised me to go to college and get a degree in a field that paid something. I compromised and went to University of North Texas, which has a great jazz studies program. I met a lot of lesser Eldons at UNT. There were so many guys who'd played with great bands who were out of work as their run at a money paying gig had expired. They wandered back to Denton, Texas, for one reason or another. But, there they were... unemployed and waiting for the next ride.

So, I kind of live by Eldon's advice. I left UNT and went into another field with a more stable financial future. If I'm never commercially successful in music then I'm OK with it. My wife and children do all right. I'm making great music right now.

BryanMichael

06-12-2002, 02:21 PM

Great story, Oz.

Peace,
Bryan

cool_E

06-13-2002, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Nza

Totally.

I'm gonna go home tonight and say NO, son, I'm not cooking you dinner, I'm not running your bath, I need to spend more time with my Four-Track :)

Then, tomorrow morning, I'm calling in to work and saying NO, I'm not coming in today, I need to get together with my drummer to work on this new one in 7/8. :)

Dude, I never implied that! I have a wonderful family (wife
and three sons). I make some time every day to spend with
each of them. I do this because my family is a priority.
My wife & I set aside 2 evenings every week to hang out with
each other. We do this because our marriage is a priority.
I go to work every day because eating is a priority and
paying the mortgage is a priority. I ride a bike several hours
a week because my physical & mental health is a priority.
Then comes music, also a priority but I only get to spend
6 to 12 hours a week doing it.

That's me. You've got to do what's right for you. :)

Dave