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Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 03:26 PM
What is an Active / Passive bass ?
A passive bass works by simply pluging it into the amp with a cable. No need for a power source other than the bass itself.
An active bass requires electrical power, usually provided by one or several onboard batteries. Sometimes, it has an integrated rechargeable accumulator or is powered by an external source through a dedicated cable. All active components can share the same power source.There are 3 different electronic zones in a bass.
The bass is considered active if any of these 3 zones is electrically powered.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/Permanent/passactive.jpg
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/passactive.jpghttp://jazzad.neuf.fr/Images/Matos/passactive.jpg

Active / Passive Pick-up ?
A passive pickup produces an electric signal based on the vibration of the strings. The signal is then send through the cable. Comparing the signal provided by the pickup(s) with the ground gets you an accurate model of the string vibration that can then be converted to sound by the amp.
An active pickup will work the same way, but usually at a lower impedance (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146714). An integrated small preamp then boosts the signal level to adjust to the next section, whatever it can be. Some active pickups don't even have magnets at all. They use electromagnets, powered by the battery.Active / Passive Gain section ?
The gain section lets you adjust the general volume of the instrument. It can be placed before or after the EQ section but it will always be somewhere between the pickup(s) and the output jack.
On many basses, the gain section is nothing but a volume knob. That's the way a passive bass will be, with or without an active EQ section. A bass with active pickups and passive electronics will also be this way. On some basses there is no gain section, meaning that you can't control the volume of the instrument; it has to be done with an external device such as a console or a volume pedal.
An active gain section will be a preamp, boosting the signal to get more gain and a hotter signal.
For an active gain section on a passive pickup, the preamp can also be used to lower the impedance provided by the PUs.Active / Passive EQ section ?
The EQ section lets you alter the signal by cuting and boosting some frequencies. Others can be VERY evoluted, with multiband EQs, parametric EQs, band, low and high pass filters,phase shifters, ...
Some instruments simply don't have an EQ section. On many basses, the gain section is nothing but a low-pass filter, the usual "tone" knob you will find on most classic instruments (Fender P and J basses for example).
You can add an active EQ section to an overwise completely passive instrument.
A passive EQ control is limited in its possibilities. You can't boost the signal with it, since it has no power to lift the level of the signal, even on a limited port of it. YOu can give the impression of boosting by cutting all other frequencies. That's the reason why there is a lot more mediums in your signal when you turn down a passive tone.Pros / cons ?
In the beginning, 25 years ago, differences in sound were big between active and passive instruments. Nowadays it's more a matter of taste.
An active instrument may provide more gain. It can be nice to push a weak amp or go directly into a mixer.
Lower impedance on active instruments will mean less noise, longer cables without signal loss and more constant signal even when running through cascades of effects.
Passive pickups are simpler. Low technicity means more reliability. ie, you won't have to worry about battery change or preamp frying.
If you have a switchable active EQ and/or gain section, you'll be able to play even if you run out of batteries. You will also have the possibility of playing with a "pure" passive sound.
Passive instruments have a more "organic, natural and warm" sound, active pickups are "beefier, better balanced and cleaner". This is a completely subjective issue, prone to start fights. Technology evolved a lot on both sides and pickup manufacturers work hard at erasing differences between the 2 systems.Nate42's additions/clarifications
The reason active pickups are lower impedance is simply due to having fewer coils of wire. This lowers their susceptibility to noise (those coils are essentially noise antennas), and also reduces their overall output. The reduced output is why active pickups require a preamp.
The preamp in active pickups is mounted within the pickup casing itself. This is done both for convenience and for noise reduction - the sooner along the signal chain that you boost the signal, the less oppurtunity there is for noise to get in.
It is quite possible to have a bass with active pickups that has passive volume and tone controls.
Another side effect of the fewer coils of wire on an active pickup is a more even frequency response - meaning the pickup has less 'character' and more accurately represents the sound of the bass.
Active pickups aren't particularly common. A passive instrument with an active eq is the most common active instrument. Don't assume your pickups are active just because you use a battery.
And on a related note, many amps have seperate active and passive inputs. The active input simply has an attenuator to reduce the signal level of very hot active instruments so it doesn't overdrive the preamp. You should always try the passive input first, even if your bass is active, cause most basses aren't hot enough to really need the active input. If you use the active input when you don't need to, you're reducing your signal (and thus your signal to noise ratio and overal volume) for no good reason.J.'s additions/clarifications
It bears repeating too: even though basses with active electronics usually have more output than totally passive basses, there are some exceptions. I'm sure we've all played a bass with some jacked-up overwound passive pickup that had output up the wazoo.
I think the worst kind of electronics to have are the really cheap actives. In my opinion, active electronics don't get very good until you start getting into mid-grade basses. The really really cheap instruments with active electronics usually have really cheesy preamps that don't do much more than induce noise.____________________________________________ _______
| Instrument | Electronics |
| |_______________________|
| |Pickup | Gain | EQ |
|__________________________|_______|_______|______ _|
|Fender Jazz Bass Standard |Passive|Passive|Passive|
| | | | |
|Fender M² |Passive|Passive|Active |
| | | | |
|G&L L-2000 |Passive|Active |Passive|
| | | | |
|MusicMan StingRay |Passive|Active |Active |
| | | | |
|Steinberger XL-2 |Active |Passive|Passive|
| | | | |
|Spector NS2 |Active |Passive|Active |
| | | | |
|ESP Tom Araya |Active |Active |Passive|
| | | | |
|Modulus Quantum |Active |Active |Active |
| | | | |
__________________________________________________ __

vanlatte
06-30-2003, 03:33 PM
Hey that is exactly what I was looking for, thanks! :)
Very informative, it should be made a sticky somewhere. Maybe on the Bass Forum FAQ?

bassaussie
06-30-2003, 03:33 PM
On a passive instrument, how would a 2 band eq work?

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by bassaussie
On a passive instrument, how would a 2 band eq work? I have schematics for that BA.
But just the same as a passive tone, it won't work on specific frequncy but on full bands.
It would be high pass / low pass dual filter, or sweepable band cut.
You need dioded or/and transistors to limit to a frequency and separate 2 bands, both those components being polarized.

bassaussie
06-30-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
I have schematics for that BA.
But just the same as a passive tone, it won't work on specific frequncy but on full bands.
It would be high pass / low pass dual filter, or sweepable band cut.
You need dioded or/and transistors to limit to a frequency and separate 2 bands, both those components being polarized.

So, if I read that correctly, basically it's got a cut on both bass and treble, right?

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by bassaussie


So, if I read that correctly, basically it's got a cut on both bass and treble, right? Yup. That's how old Gibsons were wired.
I've also seen a Guild with a sweepable medium cut.

Harpua
06-30-2003, 04:09 PM
Good stuff. So on my bass I have active pups, an active 2 band eq, a pup blend, and what I believe is just volume (not gain). I can switch the active eq on and off as well, I almost always leave it on but I've wondered, what is the purpose of being able to switch it on and off, what's the advantage?

Kaesh
06-30-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Yup. That's how old Gibsons were wired.
I've also seen a Guild with a sweepable medium cut.
Actually only one Gibson was wired like that - Les Paul Triumph , and it had double coil taps and other goodies too :D
ps. jazzy, why are you off aim :o

bassaussie
06-30-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Yup. That's how old Gibsons were wired.
I've also seen a Guild with a sweepable medium cut.

Cool, thanks. I'm not sure, but I think that may be what Ernie Ball are doing on the passive version of the SUB basses they've just released.

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:27 PM
I'm done.
Unless anyone's got questions or remarks.

lug
06-30-2003, 04:30 PM
No Questions, Frenchman. You've done well. You deserve this!










http://users3.ev1.net/~woodd/lugfrench.jpg

FreestyleIntruder
06-30-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by lug
No Questions, Frenchman. You've done well. You deserve this!










http://users3.ev1.net/~woodd/lugfrench.jpg

No-one deserves THAT.....

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:37 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh !

Jugghaid
06-30-2003, 04:41 PM
Good thread Jazz Ad.

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Jugghaid
Good thread Jazz Ad. Actually, I'm just bored of seeing the same question again and again :D

Jugghaid
06-30-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Actually, I'm just bored of seeing the same question again and again :D

True...true. But usually these turn into a "Passive is better" ...."NO ACITVE IS BETTER!!!!"......"Tastes Great!!!"..."Less Filling!!!" type of argument without the hotties tearing their clothes off. I know you are more of a fan of passive basses but this thread is very objective and avoided that whole usual nonsense. Fact is they are both great and different....that's why I have both kinds of basses. ;)

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:51 PM
Please check for mistakes or possible complements. :)

RobRoy
06-30-2003, 04:52 PM
I always thought that black knobs meant active and chrome knobs meant passive. I wasn't able to figure out what Gold knobs were for, though.

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 04:54 PM
Gold knob means Jazz Ad.
If it's a shiny bald gold then it means BOALG. :D

RobRoy
06-30-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Jugghaid


True...true. But usually these turn into a "Passive is better" ...."NO ACITVE IS BETTER!!!!"......"Tastes Great!!!"..."Less Filling!!!" type of argument without the hotties tearing their clothes off. I know you are more of a fan of passive basses but this thread is very objective and avoided that whole usual nonsense. Fact is they are both great and different....that's why I have both kinds of basses. ;)

And tubes are better than solid state. Mine was tube, with a 12ax7 sticking up out of the body from the upper horn. I kept bumping it loose and finally it broke. I could’ve had a nasty cut.

RobRoy
06-30-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Gold knob means Jazz Ad.
If it's a shiny bald gold then it means BOALG. :D

Hey, with those new digital switching amps, is there any reason you couldn't have an on-board 400 watt amp?

S'pose you'd want to be carfull about tripping over the ac cord though.

Jazz Ad
06-30-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by RobRoy
Hey, with those new digital switching amps, is there any reason you couldn't have an on-board 400 watt amp?

S'pose you'd want to be carfull about tripping over the ac cord though. And you'd want that because ?
If anything, an onboard preamp with direct out to table/poweramp would be nice.

FreestyleIntruder
06-30-2003, 05:13 PM
This thread gets the official Maria Sharapova seal of approval :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39213000/jpg/_39213006_sharapova_jump200.jpg

RobRoy
06-30-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
And you'd want that because ?
If anything, an onboard preamp with direct out to table/poweramp would be nice.

As with so much today, because you can, like led’s on your neck.

Skippii
06-30-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad

You need dioded or/and transistors to limit to a frequency and separate 2 bands, both those components being polarized.

Um...that's not quite true. You can use capacitors or inductors to do the same--that's how a 3-way crossover works in speaker cabinates.

Roger in the sky
06-30-2003, 08:01 PM
you forgot to mention that passive basses are for sissy girls

Travis_aka_Roy
06-30-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
And you'd want that because ?
If anything, an onboard preamp with direct out to table/poweramp would be nice.

Weren't LP recording basses made with a XLR out?

Skippii
06-30-2003, 08:03 PM
Okay, so if I had a bass with one bassive bartolini J, an active EMG P, and a combination lightwave/piezo bridge, and I wanted an active EQ control on the Bart, a passive tone control on the EMG, individual passive mini-pots for controling each piezo saddle individually, a passive blend control between the piezo and lightwave, an active pre-amp to mix together the bridge/Bart/EMG signals, how would I do that?



















(I'm joking....)

Roger in the sky
06-30-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Skippii
Okay, so if I had a bass with one bassive bartolini J, an active EMG P, and a combination lightwave/piezo bridge, and I wanted an active EQ control on the Bart, a passive tone control on the EMG, individual passive mini-pots for controling each piezo saddle individually, a passive blend control between the piezo and lightwave, an active pre-amp to mix together the bridge/Bart/EMG signals, how would I do that?



it involves putting a plastic bag over your face and going to sleep...

Travis_aka_Roy
06-30-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Harpua
Good stuff. So on my bass I have active pups, an active 2 band eq, a pup blend, and what I believe is just volume (not gain). I can switch the active eq on and off as well, I almost always leave it on but I've wondered, what is the purpose of being able to switch it on and off, what's the advantage?

the major advantage is to be able to use the bass if the battery goes dead. If you were playing an active without the switch and the battery started to get weak, it would sound horrible. If it went dead, there would be no sound. Neither of these would be good in a live situation(duh). Also it makes it easier to conseve the battery rather than taking the cord whenever you stop playing. And it allows you to have an active and passive bass in one. Just like m&m's: candy shell and chocolate in the middle. Or not.

Jazz Ad
07-01-2003, 02:13 AM
Try to make a big on-topic post.

See it sink to 4th page over the night.

bassaussie
07-01-2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Try to make a big on-topic post.

See it sink to 4th page over the night.

Sorry dude, I intended to bump this but I got sidetracked.

Once you're finished, I'll move this over to the FAQ forum, if it's okay with you.

And thanks for taking the time to do this. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

Skippii
07-01-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Try to make a big on-topic post.

See it sink to 4th page over the night.

Did you see my question?
(the serious one...)

mrcrow
07-01-2003, 03:23 AM
+1
spot on thread Jazz Ad
and loads of clarity
its good you split all the stages up into their respective active passive explanations.
makes it easier to understand emg design.
cheers:)

Darkstorm
07-01-2003, 06:07 AM
Pet vampyrebunny wonders is a passive bass with battery powered led fret markers an active passive bass?

Nate42
07-01-2003, 06:56 AM
Good thread Jazz. I'd like to make a few additions/clarifications if you don't mind:

The reason active pickups are lower impedance is simply due to having fewer coils of wire. This lowers their susceptibility to noise (those coils are essentially noise antennas), and also reduces their overall output. The reduced output is why active pickups require a preamp.

The preamp in active pickups is mounted within the pickup casing itself. This is done both for convenience and for noise reduction - the sooner along the signal chain that you boost the signal, the less oppurtunity there is for noise to get in.

It is quite possible to have a bass with active pickups that has passive volume and tone controls.

Another side effect of the fewer coils of wire on an active pickup is a more even frequency response - meaning the pickup has less 'character' and more accurately represents the sound of the bass.

Active pickups aren't particularly common. A passive instrument with an active eq is the most common active instrument. Don't assume your pickups are active just because you use a battery.

And on a related note, many amps have seperate active and passsive inputs. The active input simply has an attenuator to reduce the signal level of very hot active instruments so it doesn't overdrive the preamp. You should always try the passive input first, even if your bass is active, cause most basses aren't hot enough to really need the active input. If you use the active input when you don't need to, you're reducing your signal (and thus your signal to noise ratio and overal volume) for no good reason.

bassaussie
07-01-2003, 07:05 AM
Another excellent post there.

This is definately going to FAQ!

Jazzy - you said your first post was part 1 of 3. Where are the other two parts?

bassaussie
07-01-2003, 07:12 AM
Okay, here's a question that's more related to pickups, but it'll fit in here.

What determines the different tonal qualities of pickups?

For example. Take Fender - they use different pickups in their American, Japanese and Mexican Jazz basses, as well as custom shop and Squier. Yet the basic construction of the pickups are the same. I'd assume they have similar dimensions and specifications, and that the basic materials used are similar from one to the next. So why do the Custom shop pickups cost so much more, and why do they all sound different?

degroove
07-01-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by bassaussie
Okay, here's a question that's more related to pickups, but it'll fit in here.

What determines the different tonal qualities of pickups?

For example. Take Fender - they use different pickups in their American, Japanese and Mexican Jazz basses, as well as custom shop and Squier. Yet the basic construction of the pickups are the same. I'd assume they have similar dimensions and specifications, and that the basic materials used are similar from one to the next. So why do the Custom shop pickups cost so much more, and why do they all sound different?

I don't know the technical differences, but I do know that there are a lot of subtleties that can affect a pickup and its performance.

I will assume that the quality control, the coild for the wire, the magnets are of higher caliber in MIA instruments. The characteristics of the conductive capabilities of the wire such as guage and what it is made of will affect its inductance, which is what causes a pickup to transform string vibration into electric energy.

Also, the number of windings, and the shape of the windings affect inductance as well. Magnets are measured by Gaus? which is reflects the loss of magnetism over time, so the quality of the magnets will affect inductance as well.

So, as my theory goes, to cut costs, Fender will user cheaper wire and magnets in the Squire and MIM stuff.

bassaussie
07-01-2003, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by degroove


I don't know the technical differences, but I do know that there are a lot of subtleties that can affect a pickup and its performance.

I will assume that the quality control, the coild for the wire, the magnets are of higher caliber in MIA instruments. The characteristics of the conductive capabilities of the wire such as guage and what it is made of will affect its inductance, which is what causes a pickup to transform string vibration into electric energy.

Also, the number of windings, and the shape of the windings affect inductance as well. Magnets are measured by Gaus? which is reflects the loss of magnetism over time, so the quality of the magnets will affect inductance as well.

So, as my theory goes, to cut costs, Fender will user cheaper wire and magnets in the Squire and MIM stuff.

Okay, so although the basic specs may be similar, your suggestion is that the actual components (and the quality of those components) will effect the tone. Interesting.

J.
07-01-2003, 10:50 AM
Great thread.

It bears repeating too: even though basses with active electronics usually have more output than totally passive basses, there are some exceptions. I'm sure we've all played a bass with some jacked-up overwound passive pickup that had output up the wazoo.

Second of all, I think the worst kind of electronics to have are the really cheap actives. In my opinion, active electronics don't get very good until you start getting into mid-grade basses. The really really cheap instruments with active electronics usually have really cheesy preamps that don't do much more than induce noise.

Joe

My bass in your face
07-01-2003, 03:56 PM
bumpa

Jazz Ad
07-07-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Skippii
Um...that's not quite true. You can use capacitors or inductors to do the same--that's how a 3-way crossover works in speaker cabinates. But there is no way to make them adjustable, unless you use variable capacitors. Those are VERY expensive.

Jazz Ad
07-07-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Travis_aka_Roy
Weren't LP recording basses made with a XLR out? Yes, they were.
You can actually do that with a passive circuit.

TheGZeus,OnFire
07-07-2003, 12:39 PM
All I'm gonna say is the only active bass I've ever really liked was a Peavey Cirrus.

Jazz Ad
07-08-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by bassaussie
Another excellent post there.

This is definately going to FAQ!

Jazzy - you said your first post was part 1 of 3. Where are the other two parts? I think the 3 parts are definitely here by now. :)
Time for FAQ.