Scale Shape (beginner Graal)

[Jazz Ad]

Some things are so obvious that we never talk about them.
Do you ever visualize scales this way on your fretboard ?

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape.jpg

This is for the key of C. Your bass being a symetric instrument, the same shapes can be found in every key.
The idea is to remember the position of the root in them (greyed fret).
----------
Starting from there, you never have to wonder what notes you can play or not.
Also, you instantly know if the 3rd is major or minor, the 6th diminued or not, etc.
The whole fretboard can be represented with an alternance of these 2 shapes :

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape1.jpg
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape2.jpg

The first drawing is just them together.
If you know where you are in the shapes AND realize which degree it is, you can hardly get lost.
----------
You can mentally "slide" the next drawing around the upper chart and you instantly know which degrees can be used.
Of course, it's only useful for one note at a time, so it's only important to remember the position of one note compared to the root.

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/notesaround.jpg

[iwanenko]

thinking about it this way makes it real easy to stay in key,,,,

i base alot of my songs in c major, a minor, or b locrian, then i always stay on those notes

[Slap_Thatb_Ass]

Not that extravagantly, I just use:


-----------1-3-4-
-----1-2-4----
-2-4---------

[mrcrow]

its cool...i have only learned the basic two shapes for scales..:)

[mrcrow]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Actually, the whole fretboard can be represented with these 2 shapes.

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape1.jpg

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshape2.jpg

The above drawing is just them together.
If you know where you are in the shapes AND realize which degree it is, you can hardly get lost.
i may be incoroporating a bit of that at present
i tend to use a linear scale shape since the top string can be a bit thin when moving from the A string across the neck..
i only occasionally go for the full octave stretch on one string except to get a glide up or down the music.
however these look a bit more concise...
where you getting all this stuff now.:cool:

ps you asked me some time ago about saxes and jazz..??
i didnt give you a very positive feedback i dont think

[Jazz Ad]

I'm getting this stuff fom my head.
Just playing with Excel for now. :)

When I have students I always make them draw these shapes. Way to remember them.
I also have them filling big annoying tables with all degrees in all tonalities.

[mrcrow]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
I'm getting this stuff fom my head.
Just playing with Excel for now. :)
you f***in modest genius..
regards..:)

[meegaleedo]

That's cool JA. Could this be slid into the FAQ?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by meegaleedo
That's cool JA. Could this be slid into the FAQ? Sure.
I could keep on.
Actually, I realized yesterday at the practise that my mind was not as sharp as it used to be on scales, degrees and all.
We should discuss it more on the board, so I would exercise theory the same way I do with my english.

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Sure.
I could keep on.
Actually, I realized yesterday at the practise that my mind was not as sharp as it used to be on scales, degrees and all.
We should discuss it more on the board, so I would exercise theory the same way I do with my english.

English and theory discussions work for me.

For me, the one largest leap in my theory knowledge was learning, from this board was that a scale was the representation of the Key. And the concepts of modes helped also. Before all I was confident to do was roots, 3rds and 5ths.

I am still a theory neophyte but I really try and absorb as much as I can.

[Jazz Ad]

We're all neophytes. Most of us, at least.
Usually, the day you understand modes, it's like discovering the way the whole universe works.
It was for me at least. :)

[beam]

Yea I have a guitar scale book by Troy Stetina...the thing is wicked....I have no clue how one would remember ALL these scales..

I would stick mostly to blues and jazz scales.

[the_grouse_mouse]

for a good blues scale try this (eg. is in G) Hold the pattern and play wherever you want. It's basically a natural minor with no 2nd or 6th and the flat 5th incorporated.

-----------------------------------
---------------------3--5-------------
-----------3--4--5-----------------------
----3--6-----------------------------

Mouse

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
We're all neophytes. Most of us, at least.
Usually, the day you understand modes, it's like discovering the way the whole universe works.
It was for me at least. :)

+1
That's exactly what happened to me. And led me to learn how much deeper the subject is.

As far as exercising the theory, you have not had anyone to argue with about it.

CoughFlamewarcough

;)

[beam]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse
for a good blues scale try this (eg. is in G) Hold the pattern and play wherever you want. It's basically a natural minor with no 2nd or 6th and the flat 5th incorporated.

-----------------------------------
---------------------3--5-------------
-----------3--4--5-----------------------
----3--6-----------------------------

Mouse

Yea thats part of a G blues scale I found for guitar that I just play just the first octave on with bass

its a really cool lick, I actually wrote a bassline bassed on it..kinda cool. its a powertab file.

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
What about this one ?
You can mentally "slide" it around the upper chart and you instantly know which degrees can be used.
Of course, it's only useful for one note at a time, so it's only important to remember the position of one note compared to the root.

http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/notesaround.jpg

I like that one, too. The nice thing about that is that the 5ths, 6ths are "diminished" as opposed to flattened or minored. Good tool to not only learn the positions and relations to the root and the correct terminology.

[meegaleedo]

You are having fun, aren't you, Jazz Ad? :) :) :) :) :)

[tonru]

i vote we put info like this in a"sticky".
i'm a 36 year old novice,and my brain doesn't just snap this stuff up.
thanks for the color chart JA;my lefty mind accepts this better than numerical tabs.-;)

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by meegaleedo
You are having fun, aren't you, Jazz Ad? :) :) :) :) :) Hell yeah ! ;)
It will last until someone comes to tell me how wrong I am.

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Hell yeah ! ;)
It will last until someone comes to tell me how wrong I am.

So far, the graphics are dead on.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by tonru
i vote we put info like this in a"sticky".
i'm a 36 year old novice,and my brain doesn't just snap this stuff up.
thanks for the color chart JA;my lefty mind accepts this better than numerical tabs.-;) Ask and thou shall receive.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshapelefty.jpg

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by meegaleedo
I like that one, too. The nice thing about that is that the 5ths, 6ths are "diminished" as opposed to flattened or minored. Good tool to not only learn the positions and relations to the root and the correct terminology. It's because 3rds and 7ths directly define chords (minor or major, minor or major 7th, etc).
Once you have those the rest of them come automatically, unless you say they're not (which leads to chords like C 7M dim5)

[tednagel]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse
for a good blues scale try this (eg. is in G) Hold the pattern and play wherever you want. It's basically a natural minor with no 2nd or 6th and the flat 5th incorporated.

-----------------------------------
---------------------3--5-------------
-----------3--4--5-----------------------
----3--6-----------------------------

Mouse I have seen this referred to as pentatonic. Try using the same notes in b flat major with the Csharp as a passing tone. You can do quick trills on the C-C sharp notes prior to resolution. Very jazzy..
-------------------------------3------
---------------------3----5------------
------(1)----3----5----------------------
-------6------------------------------

and then down with some extras

----6--5--3------------------------------------
---------------6--5--3------------------------
--------------------------6--5--3---(1)-----------
--------------------------------------(6)-----
you can bend up to the 6s from the 5s for a bluesier sound...

[Fran da Man]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Ask and thou shall receive.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshapelefty.jpg
Why is this one inverted?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by Fran da Man

Why is this one inverted? Tonru's lefty :D.

[the_grouse_mouse]

some good info here - thanks for your posts JazzAd and Tednagel!

Mouse

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Tonru's lefty :D.

I was looking at that trying to figure out what key that was when I saw the nut at the right. That makes sense to do it lefty.

[Fran da Man]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Tonru's lefty :D.
Oh...®

[tednagel]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse
some good info here - thanks for your posts JazzAd and Tednagel!

Mouse No probs. It seems to be more difficult to find tastey licks and runs for major keys than for minor or blues. Maybe it is just me. I spend a lot of time trying different things for the major key stuff. The minor and blues things allow a bit more room to stretch.

[tonru]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Ask and thou shall receive.
http://pageperso.aol.fr/JAZZAD2/Images/scaleshapelefty.jpg
thank you JA.

[the_grouse_mouse]

Originally posted by tednagel
No probs. It seems to be more difficult to find tastey licks and runs for major keys than for minor or blues. Maybe it is just me. I spend a lot of time trying different things for the major key stuff. The minor and blues things allow a bit more room to stretch.

I agree. I've been trying to use the maj 7th, 6th and the 2nd notes a lot more in the last year. Sometimes they sound great, sometimes they suck. I cannot remember any off hand to post sorry.

Mouse

[tednagel]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse


I agree. I've been trying to use the maj 7th, 6th and the 2nd notes a lot more in the last year. Sometimes they sound great, sometimes they suck. I cannot remember any off hand to post sorry.

Mouse That's cool. I think Pearl Jam used nearly every major 2nd lick ever. The major 7s are a blast to try to fit in. They work well when my guitarist plays correctly but get REAL sour when he is wandering. I like the tension they create. It's fun to leave them unresolved sometimes. My drummer hates it.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse
I agree. I've been trying to use the maj 7th, 6th and the 2nd notes a lot more in the last year. Sometimes they sound great, sometimes they suck. I cannot remember any off hand to post sorry.

Mouse The major 7th is a bitch. It only resolves to the root. When soloing, use a minor 7th, regardless of the key. It will always sound good.

6ths are painful but they make great passing notes.

Instead of the 2nd that sounds blurry on bass, use 9ths (one octave higher).

(edited thanks to JtheD)

[meegaleedo]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
The major 7th is a bitch. It doesn't resolve to anything.

Which is why I love to end a gig on it...

[My bass in your face]

:o :o :o

If only I could understand anything, than maybe questions could pop up...

I will try it! ;)

:(

[J the D]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
The major 7th is a bitch. It doesn't resolve to anything.

My good friend, I must disagree with this statement.

A major 7th (VII) resolves to the tonic (or I). The minor 7th (vii)natural resolution is to the sub-dominant (or IV).



Regarding playing scales in general.

Learn the patterns and the rest is easy. Two four finger one-position fingerings should work completely around the Circle of Fifths.

Practice the scales in every key. Every one of them two octaves. The do them using as many open strings as you can. Then do it without using any open strings. Then go back and do the entire Circle staying in one position for each key until you have to shift up on the top string.

Then start all over again without looking at the fingerboard.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by J the D
My good friend, I must disagree with this statement.

A major 7th (VII) resolves to the tonic (or I). The minor 7th (vii)natural resolution is to the sub-dominant (or IV).Ahhh.
Finally, somebody disagrees.
Yes, the major 7th resolves to the tonic.
It's no exactly helpful when building a line since it doesn't bring you anywhere. Same for solos.

Good call on the scales.

[Zomby Woof]

I made this up to help with my practice. It may not be "according to Hoyle", but it helps me.

----------------------------------------------------

Bass Scale Patterns
(Numbers indicate fretting finger)

Major Scale Pattern
(whole whole half whole whole whole half)

G --------------
D --1-----3--4--
A --1--2-----4--
E -----2-----4--


Minor Scale Pattern
(whole half whole whole half whole whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1-----3--4--
E --1-----3--4--


Pentatonic Major Pattern
(whole whole whole&half whole whole&half)

G --------------
D --1--------4--
A --1--------4--
E -----2-----4--


Pentatonic Minor Pattern
(whole&half whole whole whole&half whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1-----3-----
E --1--------4--


Blues Pattern
(whole&half whole half half whole&half whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1--2--3-----
E --1--------4--

(Edited for clarity. Tab stops didn't convert.)

[spong]

IMHO if I were starting from scratch again I would learn Arpeggios first. Every note in-between the notes of an arpeggio is valid (as they are all involved in one scale or another).

Just learn to hit the arpeggio notes at the right time and you are most of the way there.

I agree with also learning the Major scale in terms of degree. You can also use this method to easily transpose songs if you think of the chords as scale degrees.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by spong
IMHO if I were starting from scratch again I would learn Arpeggios first. Every note in-between the notes of an arpeggio are valid (as they are all involved in one scale or another)....:confused:
Care to develop ?

[spong]

Well for starters every note is at least involved in a chromatic scale. Each note will also be included many other scales also. There are literally hundreds of different scales if you also include the modes of each scale. Diatonic scales are just the tip of the iceberg.

My point is that the arpeggio notes are the notes you want to know when to hit as all the other notes are really passing tones used to create mood/dissonance/resolution/direction/relief etc etc. The arpeggio notes are like the anchors anchoring the bass line to the chord progression.

As Charlie Parker could testify; Any note can be used in any chord progression - sounds pretty wild but it is true.

[the_grouse_mouse]

the diatonic progression. Used in Asian and Hungarian trad. mooziks. (consecutive tone intervals)
this eg. in G
---------------------------------------------
------------------------3--5--------------------
-------------2--4--6-------------------------------
------3--5----------------------------------------

"squeak"

[Fran da Man]

I'm glad that; for our younger members you guys are talking about this...
My first musical experience was vocal...singing in the School Chior...YES...I was a Soprano :mad: ( and I still have my nuts) Thank You
BUT...I was taught that the Major scale consisted of 8 notes...like everyone else in America...Doe, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Da...
And that took me years to figure out what the hell was happening, (because I didn't really care for one thing) but that was what I was taught. But there is only 7 notes in the Major scale; it was like a revelation when "I" finally figured it out!!!
It still haunts my ass at times...

[the_grouse_mouse]

hey Fran good story! Things like that are funny huh?
Did you have to do the hand actions for solfege?

My vox teacher was going to teach me them, but I said I wasn't really interested. She seemed a bit afronted, but is dealing it.

"squeak"

[MackemGeezer]

Originally posted by Zomby Woof
I made this up to help with my practice. It may not be "according to Hoyle", but it helps me.

----------------------------------------------------

Bass Scale Patterns
(Numbers indicate fretting finger)

Major Scale Pattern
(whole whole half whole whole whole half)

G --------------
D --1-----3--4--
A --1--2-----4--
E -----2-----4--


Minor Scale Pattern
(whole half whole whole half whole whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1-----3--4--
E --1-----3--4--


Pentatonic Major Pattern
(whole whole whole&half whole whole&half)

G --------------
D --1--------4--
A --1--------4--
E -----2-----4--


Pentatonic Minor Pattern
(whole&half whole whole whole&half whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1-----3-----
E --1--------4--


Blues Pattern
(whole&half whole half half whole&half whole)

G --------------
D --1-----3-----
A --1--2--3-----
E --1--------4--

(Edited for clarity. Tab stops didn't convert.)

+1. That's how I learned them. When you get to the root note just start the pattern all over again.

[Jazz Ad]

bump. Another one ready for the FAQ.