Are rack systems that much better than pedals?

[Quart_Jester]

Are there many effects you can use with a rack that can't be produced by a combination of pedals? Or is it just a matter of quality and programmability?

[jimfowler]

ultimately it's a matter of preference...and a highly subjective issue. however, there's always the issue of fidelity and flexibility. you'd be hard-pressed to find a pedal that shifts pitch as well as an eventide and i've never come across a delay pedal that can get as detailed as a big box...same goes for reverb.

however, things like overdrive benefit greatly from being analog. i'll go ahead and say it: digital effects boxes can't do overdrive worth a hoot.

it really depends on what you're looking for, i suppose.

-jim

[IamBurnout]

I look at it as gratification...

Pedals are instant gratification. Plug it in, turn the knobs, bam!

Racks are prolonged gratification. Presets suck, learning curve is high, but when you figure it out, the sounds you can get at the press of a single button are amazing.

It's kind of like cooking...
TV dinners taste good, but cooking a meal to your own personal taste is beyond compare. However, you do have to learn how to cook to make the magic happen. :D

[spikeymikey]

I only had a couple pedals, none of them were high end pedals. I never spent more then $100 on a single pedal. In my experience the effect quallity isn't as good, and kinda squashes your tone....now that may be because I bought cheap pedals, but i'll probably never know. I now own a TC electronic G-force and the FX esspecially the chorus are 10 times better then my old boss super chorus IMO.

[hurnsradi]

Hmhh, i would say it all depends on what you want to play.
But i will agree with all of you.
I think Racks are more flexible than Pedals!
As far as Money goes, everybody says Racks are so expensive but i don´t think so.

Take a bunch of pedals(Fulltone,EH) or whatever and a good Stack and you will see it´s the same even more expensive.
One Thing i hate about Pedals.How can i controll it.
You know i´m very lazy, i´d like to have it all in one Box.

On the other hand you can get sounds with Pedals you can´t get with a Rack.
Like i said it all depends on what sound you´re looking for.
If you want to play like Nirvana i would say get a good Stack with 2-3 Pedals and you´re done.
If you want to play like SMASHING PUMPKINS i strongly recommend a Rack.
Those guys were GODS!!!!!!!!!!:p ;)

[Taldaran]

To put it as simply as possible, most pedal guys get one effect setting dialed in unless they bend over and tweak the knobs.

The only variations are effects on and off, but for the most part it all sounds the same after one set.

A programmable rack unit with MIDI will enable you to have many variations on each effect and many other configurations like what kind of wave shape on your modulation effects etc, which can totally alter your sound with a tap of a footswitch/program change.

Great thing is you can have dozens of different patches.

Stompboxes can also be really noisy.

It's always a rush to put on headphones to listen to a patch that an artist has recorded and either duplicate it or improve upon it.:)

[adamquek]

Don't forget, racks have fancy lights. Fancy lights! I think if you're looking for pristine, trasnparent digital effects, racks are definitely the way to go. However sometimes people just like how analog pedals color your tone. It's a different approach and it depends on how YOU want to sound. And don't forget the fancy lights!

[Zeromus-X]

I've got all my equipment rackmounted for four reasons:
It gives me easy access to the stuff when I need to change or view something (on top of a cabinet at eye-level as opposed to a dark stage floor). Controls are really easily moved around accidentally when you're allowing someone else to set your stuff up (or forced to let someone set your stuff up!), and many pedal knobs don't help matters any by simply being little black knobs. As well, many rack processors simply use the knobs to adjust internal settings; for example, on my TC Electronic compressor, it doesn't matter if the singer comes up and twists every damn knob on the unit -- all I have to do is go to my preset again with one button and it's all back where I like it again.
Rack gear seems to live longer. Maybe it's because it's in a nice protective case. Maybe it's because you're not stomping on it nightly, and the other band members aren't tripping over it while moving across stage. Maybe it's because it's much harder for an audience member to spill beer on a rack panel than a floorboard. But it just seems like pedals have a tendency to die before rack units. Even expensive pedals compared to rack units. This also applies to the cables; how many times have you replaced patch cables between pedals because one was lost, one was broken, one was crushed... compared to rack cables which are typically never moved?
It's way easier to toss my rack into the back of the equipment truck than it is to toss the pedalboard, the head, the cables, etc. If you've got a pedalboard and road case, this isn't as much of a problem, as everything's in its little shell (much like a rack, no?). But 99% of the pedal players seem to have their stuff velcro-ed to a piece of spraypainted plywood with cables hanging everywhere.
Less cables running along the floor of the stage for me to bust my ass on. I've got no pedals at all in my setup; my wireless is rackmounted. That means zero cables between the front of the stage and the amp.

[tuvokzeta9]

Pedals are great little tone modules! However, there is a tendency to "go house" and amass a ton of pedals and get the ultimate in crap-tone...

[JuneBugHunter]

I used to be a pedal whore. I still have most of them (about 10+ boss pedals) and a Bad Horsie and Little Alligator. I even had a pedal board that I built with velcro on it for each pedal...but now I am 100% rack person...here are a few of my reasons.

Setup is EASY (given I don't have all my gear yet) all I will have to do is plug in my guitar...pull out my midi foot controller plug a cable into my cab and I am done.

Setup was about the same with my pedal bored except I was always having to find which cable came unplugged or which pedal wasn't getting power. people messing with them...me tripping over them...settings not being right. There where just so many problems I would always have.

Anyway I think you can get better tone any way you want with a rack setup...wether you want digital, analog, processed, tube tone. You name it there is a rackmountable effect or effect unit that will give it to you. And it is all controllable.

[sahhas]

i started out w/ a rat distortion, a chorus pedal, and a delay pedal.
it worked great for me for 10+ yrs.

i now have: digitech rp100-zoom 9150-digitech dsp256xl-
dod d12-digitech ips33-lexicon mpx100 (and waiting on
an alesis ineko).

pedals are easier.
but i think my rack stuff sounds better than my pedals ever did.

and obviously i have some old rack gear, but i got it for cheap mostly.
things cost a lot less today than they did back 12-14 yrs ago.

but it's obviously going to be personal choice, there will always be
the "less vs. more" crowd and the "pedal vs. rack" people.

i tend to favor guitarists who get "weird sounds" (belew, torn, etc),
and i think dave torn is a good model, he uses both pedals and
rack gear to get his sounds. a good combo of both can be very flexable
w/ a wide range of sounds available. again, it's really all about personal choice and what you're willing to experiment with.
s---

[sahhas]

followup-
tone is in your hands/fingers, etc.

your sound can change, but how you play is how you play.
it's like the old van halen story, when ted nugent played
through ed's circa '78 setup, he still sounded like ted.

there is no magic box.

it's how you play chords, notes, etc etc. the more you play, the
better you get.
s---

[IsildursBane]

As far as Money goes, everybody says Racks are so expensive but i don´t think so.

I used to think the same thing, then realized that these pedal guys were spending well over $100, often more than $200 for a single pedal. Heck, you can get a pretty darn good FX unit for under $500.

-Dan.

[JuneBugHunter]

I just realized...including cables, pedals, pedal board, and power. I have spent about $1500+ on my pedal setup. I already have more "power" better sound, etc etc, with my rack setup and it has cost me merely $1,100 for everything so far. Although the pre shouldn't count because technically that is an amp head, and when I get the power amp the same would apply.

[sahhas]

1500$ on pedals? wow.
i had to add up what i spent on my rack gear (9150-256xl-
d12-ips33-mpx100) and my rp100. total=675$
things are a lot cheaper nowadays. the most i've
spent was 200$ on my lexicon mpx100, which of
course they discontinued a month after i got mine and came
out w/ the mpx110. nature of the game i guess. but
the mpx100 is a real workhorse in my home studio.
does a lot of things, etc.
to me, that's a lot of money for pedals. if i was spending
that much, i'd get the eventide h3000. or it's =.

funny though, last night i decided to just use my
digitech rp100, and was amazed at it's sound just alone
through my amp.

another tip: get to know your gear!
s---

[Yek]

Originally posted by Quart_Jester
Are there many effects you can use with a rack that can't be produced by a combination of pedals? Or is it just a matter of quality and programmability?

I'm always in for a dissenting opinion.

Sure, a complete rack is great but the burden of endless modifications, improvements, programming will kill you. Yeah, it sure will. I would love to bring in some witnesses here, but as I said, they were all killed by programming disease.

I recently switched from a humble rack back to pedals. Some forumites predicted it wouldn't hold for one week. But I'm still enjoying my large amounts of free time, not having to program stupid presets. Enjoying the possibilities of being able to change a sound on the spot. Not messing with technology all the time anymore but just enjoying making music.

Sure, a rack enables you to switch complex sounds immediately. But, do you really need to? Is it worth it, having to buy a heavy duty rack, special cabling, power distributors, fans, MIDI controllers, line mixers, audio routers? And still having to use distortion pedals and compressors and wah-wahs because you can't really replace those with rack gear. And I love the direct response coming from pedals.

And damn, most important, I got as much lights on my pedal board now as all them rack dudes have got on their rack.

[slapshot]

I use both at the same time. My rack has an PL-8 two Senheiser digital wirless guitar systems, and a Mesa 50/50.

My floor rig is a Teese RMC3, SIB Varidrive, Line 6 DL-4, and a DLS Chorus/Vibe.

[sahhas]

rack vs. pedals...
i think of it like this w/ my gear (listed above)
i have 4 different options of pitch shifting (harmonizing)-and
if you use the whammy of the rp100 w/ the harmonizing of the
ips33, you can get some weird sounds, and each of my
processors gives me at least 4 options of chorus/flange/delay
etc (and it's nice to think i can use either zooms chorus or digitech's
chorus or lexicon's chorus, all sound different). plus i can go either digital modelling or tube distortion.
for me, the flexability of my rack is above and beyond any pedal system.
i can make "normal sounds" or i can make "weird/whacky sounds".
so the flexability is important for me. if you're a "metal 80's player" who
is into "tone" (which generally came from overdriven amp sounds), then
rack gear probably isn't for you. if you're at all experimental and always
searching, the more tools you have the more you can explore.
s----

[IsildursBane]

Do any of the rack equipment manufacturers make PC-based patch editors for their units? In my mind, this would make it a lot easier to cut-and-paste portions of a patch, as well as just making editing patches in general more convenient. I don't know about you guys, but I have a tough time reading that little 2-line LCD.

Or maybe there could be a program that would allow you to edit patches on multiple units simultaneously.

Anybody know of anything like this? Maybe I could make one....

-Dan.

[jimfowler]

dan-

eventide and sound sculpture both have pc/mac interfaces for their gear. the sound sculpture editor is just a godsend.

i once spent $550 on a lovetone ring modulator. i sent it back. pedals can get really expensive, but i'll probably end up buying another fulldrive2 before it's all said and done.

call me odd, but i actually like getting in a programming. where pedal users may or may not understand what that knob they're twisting does, i don't have the option but to learn. you can't argue with the fact that rack gear gives you more extensive control (i.e. - parameters). my voodoo lab tremolo had 4 knobs. my tremolo patches (probably a total of 10 between machines) has no fewer than 8 parameters per preset. i really like control, but every once in a while i get "option overload" and have to step away.

but there is no "correct" solution and there's no "magic box"...if you can't play, you can't play. nice gear will just make your bad music sound like bad music through nice gear. ideally, nobody loses sight of the fact that creativity and talent come first...gear comes second (and third and fourth and fifth and...)

-jim

[IsildursBane]

eventide and sound sculpture both have pc/mac interfaces for their gear. the sound sculpture editor is just a godsend.

Do these editors use the MIDI ports to interface w/ the PC, or is there another type of connection that's used?

-Dan.

[jimfowler]

i connect via usb/midi port using a midiman midisport 2x2. works like a charm...some units require one midi connection, others require two (hand-shaking, etc.).

-jim

[ctoddrun]

lets revive this old thread.

good read.

[HERC]

You can always plug a Pod XT into a PA system......:D

[tonedoctor1]

To piggy back on what Jim has said.

I use a soundsculpture switchblade gl. The winblade editor is fantastic and works beautifully.

I think jim makes some great points in his post. I also don`t think it has to be pedals vs. rack gear but more like pedals and rack gear. Some things pedals do very well and some things rack gear is great at. So the combination gives you the best of both worlds.


Tom

[ProfaneOath]

My beef with pedals has been that you're just SO LIMITED using them.

Just consider this: Even if you have every effect you want, and like the tone of every pedal in your chain, for a live or practice situation you are limited to just an on/off of whatever setting your pedal is at. In contrast, with rack units and midi mapping (which is almost effortless), you have at your disposal typically 99-120 presets, each of which can have a different combination of effects, with different placements of those effects in the chain, and different settings for the effects in each preset.

You can't do that with pedals, it would be equivalent to literally taking off your guitar, rearranging the pedals, and changing the settings of each effect, in the middle of a song/set. Wheras with rack units, it's done effortlessly at the touch of a foot button.

As for tone, I have never found my Digitech 2112 (which I use for effects and tube eq) to be lacking in tone compared to any pedal.

[JuneBugHunter]

Lets not forget one of the most important factors about a musicians rig though...

"Simplicity is Bliss"

I have been on both sides of the fence with a fully capable 100% midi controlled pure rack rig, and I have had an all tube 2 channel amp, and even just a combo amp. The midi/rack rig was also not all it was cracked up to be. I primarily thought it was cool because I would have all my gear in one rack except for a cab and guitar, but then I realized my rack weighed 120lbs+ after I had a power conditioner, tuner, couple effects processors, a pre-amp and poweramp, plus cables and what not.

The thing with pedals is that very few people buy a pedal to use it for more than one sound. Most people are happy with one reverb, one delay setting, one chorus setting.

Not to mention some of the weirdest/coolest tones I have ever heard come from people who use pedal rigs.

[ctoddrun]

when I was going back and forth debating on which way to go on this issue, one over-riding factor made me choose pedals.

To get the flexibilty the racks afford, you really have to spend time working on your sounds. Combinations of effects for each patch is pretty extensive work.

Then you have to remember that patch 81 is clean, with slight delay and mild chorus, 85 is clean with heavy delay and flange, etc.

Pedals really are limited, but in turn, they really are instant gratification (and a lot less work).

Signed,

Lazyguy

[guitarslinger]

Originally posted by jdwinger


Thing is...that's still thinking that "rack" is

General-purpose-DSP-driven-MIDI-controlled-menu-oriented-UI-multi-patch-effects-unit

If knobs and just defeat switches are your deal -- you can do that in rack too.

It's just an enclosure

well said, plus,

1. Pedals, even used, are not that cheap.
2. Rack units, from 1987-1993, are EXTREMELY cheap. Every unit that listed for $799 is now $100-$200.
3. A colmplete rig usually reuires pedals and a rack, look at Steve Vai and others.

[ProfaneOath]

I know that I personally could not live with only one reverb setting as I use a very mild, 20% mixed spring reverb for my rhythm tones, and use a 40-50% mixed plate reverb sound for my leads, along with analog delay. Then again I guess I could never be happy with just a digital delay because I prefer Analog Delay for anything distorted, and it has to come after the preamp (which is possible with a pedal in the effects loop of an amp, but I have found most effects loops to be unusable because they are parallel and not series).

I guess what I'm saying is, yes I'm probably more picky than the average guitarist about effects settings, eq settings and tone in general, but the point is that the rack approach ALLOWS me to be like that, with almost effortless simplicity in saving/storing presets and having the ability to instanly bring up the exact tone that I dialed in and saved at the push of a pedal on a floorboard. When you get right down to it, yes there may be more programming time involved (some new rack units are very intuitive and amp-like, and others aren't) but when you get everything saved and the midi mapped together to a good floorboard, it is not any more difficult or time consuming than using pedals.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by ProfaneOath

I guess what I'm saying is, yes I'm probably more picky than the average guitarist about effects settings, eq settings and tone in general

TO be honest with ourselves, I think every guitar player feels that way about him or herself.

[SlipKid]

The great thing about rack gear is, like someone else has already posted, much of the stuff that was top of the line in the 1980s and 1990s has come down in secondhand price so much that equipment that cost thousands originally is now within the reach of the average guitarist.

I picked up a Digitech 2112 and the C1 for a shade under $340 not too long ago off Ebay. It does everything that you could want in a multi-effects unit. A Roland SDE1000? $130. A Korg A3? Around $200.

Whether or not these are currently the state of the art is immaterial. They were more than sufficient for many of the top musicians during the period that they were produced, and as such it's hard to argue that their age somehow has rendered them useless, any more than analog pedals have become useless.

Personally, I'm completely happy with a pure rack setup. I have what amounts to unlimited options with three or four units, I have flexibility with how I chain my effects, and I can do things that I wouldn't be able to afford if I only had pedals.

I think it really just comes down to how much flexibility you want in your rig/setup. Personally, I experiment too much to be happy with a couple pedals, although I could probably get about 55% of the sound I use with three or four pedals. The other 45% of the time, though, I'm happy to have my rack stuff.