TC-HELICON VOICELIVE 2 Vocal Harmony and Effects Processor [Archive] - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:45 AM

TC-Helicon VoiceLive 2 ($800 street)
Vocal Harmony and Effects Processor

The VoiceLive 2 is TC-Helicon’s top-of-the-line vocal processor, incorporating selected technologies from the company’s entire product line of vocal-oriented effects. Though its name seems to designate it a successor to the original VoiceLive, the model 2 comes with significantly smoother and more powerful processing capabilities, many more features, a new form factor, and added workflow routines that include Live Engineering Effects and a search wizard.

Before we get to the specifics of the VoiceLive 2—and to spare you the suspense—I can report that it is an other worldly experience to hear intelligent harmonization done so well. The VoiceLive 2 produces harmonies that are not only rich and accurate in all their chord-tone glory, but completely free of artifacts (noise, weird conversion glitches, etc.). The VoiceLive2’s extraordinarily realistic sound, ease of use, and powerful harmonizing intelligence put it at the top of hardware-based vocal processors—and make it completely addicting.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/VoiceLive2_main.jpg

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:47 AM

At just under $800 street, the VoiceLive2 (check it out here (http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicelive2.asp), on TC-Helicon’s website) is not inexpensive, but it is one of the smoothest vocal harmonizing units I’ve used. “Smooth” here doesn’t just apply to the sound quality, either, though that is certainly one of the characteristics of its vocal processing. Rather, I’m referring to the entire process of working with the VoiceLive 2, from setting levels to dialing in a preset to effects selection to editing. It’s powerful, but not in a complex or confusing way. Through its good use of setup wizards, user interface, and display technology—and almost clairvoyant algorithms that produce appropriate harmonies for any situation—the VoiceLive 2 is the perfect live-performance tool for vocal performers who need high-quality harmonies along with fast and easy realtime control over editable parameters.

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:49 AM

The VoiceLive 2 is a floor-based processor, sporting a compact, rugged housing, high-quality footswitches, and a large and bright LED display. There are lots of dedicated switches (one footswitch each for Delay and Reverb, for example) and knobs, all of which go a long way when making realtime changes.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/VoiceLive2_foot.jpg

The curved, sloping front is more graceful and homogeneous looking than its predecessor’s, and the back panel features a healthy complement of I/O, including all manner of audio (digital, analog), MIDI (I/O/T), and control (USB, external footpedal). The VoiceLive 2 allows you to insert a guitar, keyboard, or audio device with which to supply the source for the harmony algorithms to do their thing.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/VoiceLive2_rear.jpg

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:49 AM

At the core of the VoiceLive 2 is the vocal processor that provides up to four separate intervals (which can be unison doubled) when triggered from an audio input (guitar, keyboard, or mp3 input) or up to eight discrete voices when MIDI-triggered. Each voice can be specified by register, interval, gender, level, and pan position.

Additionally, voices can be panned, doubled, choired, humanized, vibratoed, portamentoed (sliding into and out of notes), smoothed, and EQ’d. Besides prescribing the musical role of each individual voice, the VoiceLive 2 has effects—lots of them—and different operation modes. In this way, the unit operates similarly to a multi-effects processor for vocalists, so guitarists familiar with high-functioning floor-based controllers will be very at home here.

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:51 AM

The basic layout of the VoiceLive 2 has two footswitches for advancing programs in either direction, a Shortcut and Step switch (for accessing user-defined preset chains), and six dedicated footswitches that toggle the on/off statuses of microMod (an effects block that produces chorus, microtuning, flange, and other exotic effects), Harmony (the harmony voices), Delay, Double, Reverb, and FX (other effects that the user designates per program).

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/voicelive2_front1.jpg

Those conversant with multi-effects pedals will recognize that the unit works in both “program” mode (where stepping through the pre-programmed memory locations changes entire setups) as well as “stompbox” mode, where individual effects within a program can be toggled on and off. The Shortcut and Step switches act as an in-between mode to this paradigm, allowing users quick access to additional functionality within a preset but not available as a dedicated switch. (More on these later.)

The one slight disappointment to the otherwise stellar build of the unit is the power supply: a lightweight, outlet-hogging wall-wart with a short cord (a little over 6', putting the converter block squarely between your mic stand and the backline).

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 07:59 AM

Above the footswitches is the editing region and display. Dedicated buttons on the left of the unit invoke Tone, Pitch, Guitar FX, Home, Setup, Wizard, Store, and Edit. Pressing and holding any of these buttons calls up the appropriate pages and tabs on the display.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/voicelive2_front2.jpg

The generous complement of dedicated buttons here ensures that all the expected editable parameters are included underneath. A dedicated Home button is a particularly nice touch: It means wherever you are you can go to the first page, without having to step back through nested pages. What’s more, each button remembers where you were, should you leave and go to another parameter. When you re-hit the button, you’re returned to where you left off. Nice.

The middle and right side of the front panel show the display, which is quite large, well-illuminated, and readable at any angle, distance, and under all lighting conditions. Underneath the window are four soft encoders that align with the various on-screen parameters that show up, and on the extreme right are left/right cursor buttons and a large rotary encoder. All buttons and knobs here are well spaced and have a good feel. You can easily edit the VoiceLive 2 in your socks!

There are more aspects to the switches, buttons and soft knobs, all of them versatile and good, but suffice it to say that in having worked with the unit for a couple of months now, I can say that I’ve never encountered a better implementation of a front-panel interface. This is admirable in its own right, but especially significant because this unit is designed to be used almost exclusively in a live situation.

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 08:05 AM

As soon as you plug in and begin to set levels, the VoiceLive 2 goes to work. To work to best effect, the unit needs to hear you and make decisions about your voice, based on the mic you’re using, your volume level, your dynamic range, your sibilant tendencies (chiefly over-emphasized “S” sounds), and the overall tonal quality.

For this it uses an auto-setup routing (called the “Live Engineer Effects”) which continually analyzes and then makes adjustments using a suite of tools consisting of EQ, compression, de-essing, and gating. It’s helpful to know what the tools are, but you don’t really need to know what they’re doing; they all make your voice sound better. If you want to do something different, you can always go into edit mode and make manual adjustments.

Once you have your mic input optimized, you're ready to go to town. You simply start singing and playing, and the unit creates harmonies based on the notes you sing and the chords you play. That may be simplified explanation, but that’s how it works. Step through the presets and you hear the range of harmonies and effects programs available. I started out with stuff I knew, to give me a familiar benchmark. So I sang Eagles, Beatles, Crosby, Stills & Nash, Doobie Brothers, and other pop and classic rock stuff that featured harmonies. Prince's "Purple Rain" was particularly fun.

I sort of lost myself at this stage, spending day after day, session upon session, just acclimating myself to the existing programs and finding material appropriate to the harmonies and effects within the programs. I sang myself hoarse and into the night on many occasions.

One of the biggest benefits I found in working with the VoiceLive 2 is that it can make your own voice sound better, simply by employing its Live Engineer Effects and the voice pitch correction (again, incorporated from previously developed TC-Helicon technology). This automatically produces a stronger vocal performance—sonically optimized and pitch-corrected. So if you’re the rhythm guitarist backing up a lead vocalist with a counter-melody or “ooze and oz,” you can provide stronger, more accurate harmonies by having passed through the VoiceLive 2’s tools first.

Another very useful mode--also of interest to guitarists, harmony singers, and everyone except the lead singer--is the VoiceLive 2’s Lead Mute feature. This allows someone other than the lead singer to provide the harmonies by singing along in unison with him or her. You simply mute the lead, and you’re left with the harmonies.

This way, the harmonies track with the lead singer, but not quite exactly, in case he or she wants to throw in an improvised flourish or trill that would sound gimmicky and robotic if doubled. This also lets the lead singer worry just about singing lead expressively and emotionally, rather than singing to produce the background harmonies.

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 08:09 AM

To hear some folks who sing a lot better than I do, check out TC-Helicon product specialist Tom Lang, and his video demo of the VoiceLive 2 here:

Tom Lang video demo (http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicelive2.asp?video=voicelive2/voicelive2_10presets.flv)
http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/Tom_Lang.jpg

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Here’s another one where Laura Clapp, working for TC-Helicon at the 2009 Musikmesse show, demonstrates (singing a cappella) the choir feature and harmonies, at about 1:07:

VkqFnY5egfE

_
Each video shows off different aspects of the VoiceLive 2 nicely, I think: Tom with a guitar singing some iconic harmony examples we can all relate to; Laura with a beautiful, a cappella segment that highlights the smooth, rich sound of the VoiceLive 2.

Jon Chappell

08-25-2009, 08:12 AM

As I do with all reviews of a certain complexity and power, I recommend you download the manual and any other documentation the manufacturer provides (list of presets, etc.). TC-Helicon provides its manual and preset lists in pdf form, and you can find them here:

http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicelive2support.asp
http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/voicelive2_manual.jpg

____________________________________

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/voicelive2_presets.jpg

Note that the preset list includes a column called “Assigned Tags.” When creating and editing presets, you can enter in keywords of your choosing, allowing you to search presets with this additional criterion. For example, I created a trio harmony with a female vocalist above and one male below—I call it “AlisonK” after Alison Krauss and Union Station, which also uses this scheme whenever Alison, Dan Tyminski, and Ron Block are singing in three-part harmony.

BTW, there are 250 presets; this is just a screen capture of the first 25! (And you're not limited to just two entries for tags, either, but this is all that would fit on the screen!)

Jon Chappell

09-03-2009, 08:10 AM

Though the VoiceLive 2 is extensively editable as far as its effects, panning, routing, and recording and MIDI options (all of which we’ll explore), it is at its heart a vocal harmonizer. The core of that function lies in the Harmony tab in the Edit menu. From any preset, you simply hit two buttons (Edit/Harmony) and you’re there.

The VoiceLive 2 uses a short-cut system called “Styles,” where 15 pre-configured setups are used as the kernels to produce its onboard 250 factory programs (and however many user programs you create). There’s no “default” or otherwise zeroed-out Style, so you have to look for the one that most closely matches the harmony you’re building. For example, if I wanted to create a simple same-sex (male, in my case), two-voice, close-harmony arrangement in the style of Simon and Garfunkel or the Everly brothers, I’d choose the Style named “1 Voice Above.” If I was a woman singing melody with a man singing harmony, I’d choose “1 Voice Below” (men typically sing an octave lower than women, even when singing the “higher part”—the most-common choice in two-voice harmony).

The 15 Styles are named intuitively and somewhat progressively:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/styles.jpg

I wish this list were presented in the manual somewhere, because to me, it’s the obvious place to begin when you’re setting up a program from scratch. And I’d like to see not only the list, but the most important editable parameters under that Style, such as interval and gender. If you’re a vocal arranger, or otherwise skilled in the ways of harmony, this will be your first stop if you want to understand what’s going on musically with the harmony scheme. It’s a simple task, though, to make your own list for quick reference.

To illustrate, I took a four-voice harmony, which uses all four available voices, displayed as four columns of parameters in the Edit/Harmony menu. Below is a table I constructed that shows how the Style called "2 Above 2 Below" lays out. Note that I footnoted parameters that require additional explanation (and are some of the most powerful that the VoiceLive 2 offers); all other categories are fairly intuitive.

VoiceLive 2 Edit/Harmony screen:
http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/harmony_screen.jpg

Varying the qualities like "Porta" (the sliding in and out of notes), "Humanize" (subtle time and pitch variations), "Smooth" (which, along with some portamento, helps to soften note-to-note transitions unless a robot-like effect is desired), and others yields a more natural, human feel, eliminating that tell-tale "robotic lock-step" effect that many lesser vocal processors have.

Jon Chappell

09-03-2009, 08:31 AM

It's important to note with regards to the above screen on the Harmony parameters that you can derive eight separate voices (intervals) through MIDI input.

On the other end of the NaturalPlay spectrum, the VoiceLive 2 will derive harmonies from an Aux Input. This means you can hook up your mp3 player, sing along to the song, and have harmonies generated for you! If you have grooves, backing tracks, or instrumentals already on CD or in your mp3 library, this would be a fantastic place to start. It's also a boon to folks who don't play an instrument, but who want to generate harmonies.

So the NaturalPlay modes run from the ultra-prescriptive (MIDI Notes) to the totally automatic (Aux Input). The "in between" modes are Auto Input Sense (the most typical setting), Guitar, MIDI, Scale, and Shift.

For using MIDI to generate notes instead of audio or a pre-programmed Scale, you can use two modes MIDI Notes and MIDI 4 Chan. When using MIDI notes, you can break the "lock step" tendency of vocal harmonizers in general by having the Voice Live 2 follow your keyboard or guitar. So for example, if you hold a MIDI note while singing a moving line, the harmony will not move until you change the played note. Conversely, you can sustain a sung note while moving the MIDI notes underneath--playing, an arpeggio, for instance. The mode called MIDI 4 Chan. puts each voice on its own separate MIDI channel, to allow for independent vibrato, pitch bending, etc.

Jon Chappell

09-03-2009, 08:51 AM

When I record, I'll often overdub my own vocals to create harmony. But it occurred to me that instead of overdubbing, I could use the VoiceLive 2--even though it's really designed to be used as a live performance tool.

When you route the harmony output to a different track from the lead, and you employ the MIDI Notes mode to define the harmony exactly, this becomes a reality.

Well, I found out quickly that it was problematic for me to play a harmony line on my MIDI keyboard while singing. I could do it without hitting wrong notes, but it took me a couple of tries and I realized I was concentrating too hard on playing the notes correctly--sacrificing some feel.

Then it occurred to me: Why not just record the lead vocal first, and then run the output through the VoiceLive 2 while playing the MIDI part? It's the same process as overdubbing, but I'm not actually "playing" second part; I'm merely supplying the pitch information. It's more akin to what guitar players do when re-amping.

This worked amazingly well, and I was able to generate quickly specific harmonies in both four-voice hymns (such as the chorale arrangements of Bach, Praetorious, etc.) and barbershop quartets.

Jon Chappell

09-04-2009, 05:52 AM

In the chart that lists the Harmony parameters above, there's one row that possibly requires explanation: Guitar Chords/Accept Dom7.

Here's how they explain it in the manual:

GUITAR CHORDS
This parameter changes the harmony note response to DOM7 guitar chords only. At the default setting; ACCEPT DOM7, whenever you play a dominant 7th chord and the combination of your singing note and harmony voicing is set to produce a 7th harmony, you’ll hear the 7th.

In a song composed largely of DOM7 chords, it’s not that easy to sing a melody composed of all of the 7ths and thus, many harmony singers move to the chord root instead. Broadly speaking, this is also a difference between a “Pop” sounding harmony and a more “Bluesy” harmony sound.This is what the IGNORE DOM7 setting does. A good song to play and sing to check out the difference is “Michelle” by the Beatles.

The other choice is "Ignore Dom7," where the unit harmonizes only the triad of the chord--in this case dom7s would be major.

I'm not quite sure why they chose to cite the song "Michelle." In the verse, there's only one dominant seventh chord, and it comes at the end, like this:

D Gm C Bb A7 Bb A7
Michelle, ma belle, these are words that go together well, my Michelle.

You'd think to really hear the difference well, you'd play a tune where the accompaniment has all dominant sevenths, like a blues. And it might be because in a blues (I7, IV7, V7), the 7ths of the I and IV chords are non-diatonic. For example, in C blues, the 7th of the I chord, C, is Bb; the 7th of the IV chord, F, is Eb; So the unit can't use its usual scheme of deducing the tonic of the key.

Still not sure why "Michelle" illustrates this, as A7--the only 7th chord in the verse, is actually diatonic. But I'll check it out and see.

Anderton

09-04-2009, 07:02 PM

Jon Chappell

09-05-2009, 07:09 AM

Hey Jon - thought I'd check out what you're doing :) I've been interested in hearing more about the VoiceLive 2.

Have you tried the VoiceLive 2 with any signal sources other than voice? Not that I'm expecting miracles, but I remember trying a harmonization device once with toms, and it sounded fabulous. I know you have other things to cover, but maybe you could indulge me with a few experiments when you get a chance.

Toms! That's inspired. That might be a case for the "fixed scale" mode, where you define the key and scale for the source to operate in. So I would determine (as close as possible) what the "fundamental" of the tom is.

Or not. :)

In any case, I'll try routing a couple of sources through the Voice Live 2--saxophone to start, and moving to toms and other off-beat choices--just to see what happens.

Stay tuned! :thu:

Jon Chappell

09-06-2009, 06:23 PM

Per Craig’s suggestion and in the spirit of exploring “new and different uses for things you normally use for something else,” I tried a bunch of different drum sounds passed through the VoiceLive 2.

It turns out, tom-toms are really the only thing that yield usable results. This is probably because they are the most focused in terms of a “fundamental,” at least when compared to the other instruments found in a standard kit. Snares and cymbals are just too smeary for a vocal processor to work with, and a kick doesn’t really produce anything musical. Toms, however, provided some nice surprises, especially when you remember that this was all done with a vocal processor.

What follows is a progression from normal to increasingly weird. My approach was to just step through the presets with a looped tom fill. When I heard some aspect of the preset that I thought could be drawn out more, I altered just that parameter (e.g., tap tempo), and only slightly at that. Otherwise, I left everything intact, because the experiment here was to use vocal processing, and not to tweak the functions you’d find on any multi-effects processor (detuning, modulation, ambience, etc.).

Below are my rough descriptions of the eight clips on the mp3 file found here (Jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/Tom_fills1_sample.mp3):

1. Unprocessed one-bar tom fill using four drums: three rack toms and a floor tom, played from high to low.
2. Doubled, with increased ambience.
3. Boomier, with a clappy, flappy sound.
4. Boomier still, with audible rhythmic slapback and some slight flanging (I used the tap tempo function here).
5. Fundamental of toms are perceived as pitches, with buzzy vocoder effect
6. Explosive effect with flange and weird “afterglow”—my favorite!
7. Ray-gun effect with descending filter-sweep fall-off, courtesy of vocoder function.
8. The megaphone/AM-radio treatment, yielding a hand-clap/high-roto-tom/guiro sound.

I really like #6, #7, and #8. They’re just unexpected, bizarre, and fun. But note the fullness of #3 and #4. These are closer in function to the original, though they might be just the ticket if you’re looking for that “tom-toms that ate Cleveland” sound. :)

chazmuz

09-11-2009, 01:27 PM

Jon Chappell

09-11-2009, 05:56 PM

After lusting after one online for a couple of weeks & viewing all the demo vids, I was able to talk a friend into letting me borrow his for a week. Here's my assessment:

Top notch! Smooth, high quality effects and sounds with great options - reverb, delay, harmony, bypass, etc. Solid construction. There's not much to complain about, with the exception of the standard wall wart (as mentioned before here in this thread.) I didn't really get into programming much, but found that slight adjustments were easily made without having to read the manual.

Using a Rode NT1A and taking advantage of my unusually monumental vocal skills (rebuttal, anyone?) - I demo'd all the vocal patches, and practically all are useful. As a horn player, I blew some trumpet through a 1-down patch, and was able to create some killer riffs and a perfect lower harmony under the lead. I didn't get to sample much sax, but usually if the harmonies on trumpet work well, the sax is not too hard to follow suit, either by adjustment or default. Saxes, I have found, are harder to emulate anyway because of their dynamic nature. It's a little easier - for me - to create realistic harmonies on trumpet through a harmonizer rather than saxophone. I attribute this to the cutting, clear and ringing brass tones a trumpet is capable of, whereas a saxophone seems to have more "looseness" in tonality and general make-up.

I got to use the Voice Live 2 on three gigs, and the first was not that successful. I MIDI'd a keyboard and sang some bgv's at a church gig. I kept having gating issues, as I'd sing into the mic, and suddenly everything - lead vocals and harmonies, would just jump out loudly. In the unit's defense, I didn't get to do a sound check and set up the parameters properly. I had been using the M-Harmony by TC Helicon, and I was used to "plug & play" operation. The other two gigs were primarily horn gigs, and I didn't even use the harmony settings, rather just relying on the reverb and delay to sweeten my sound, and boy, did it! The unit is almost worth its price just for the effects without the harmony function.

Anyway, I've been wanting a unit before I got to demo one, and I still want one now that I have had the chance to put it through the paces! For a guy like myself who does a variety of gigs - church, cover bands, solo, on-call horns, this unit is a "must have" for me. If you're a serious vocalist who plays guitar or keys, and you are versatile enough to perform different gigs, a tool like the Voice Live 2 would be very valuable. I didn't even get into the mp3 input option, but I can see myself doing "coffee shop" and solo gigs again. :thu:

Great assessment, chazmuz. I'm not a horn player, so I appreciate the insight on trumpets and saxophones. My experience about saxes being more slippery is consistent with yours, but I'm coming at it from the perspective of a non-wind player. I suppose that's why the sax is often said to be the most "vocal-like." It's a little slower to speak, the transient isn't a sharp, and it tends to have a little more portamento (sliding into and out of notes, pitchwise) overall.

I agree about the "must have." If you can marshal the powers of this harmonizer, you can really bring something unique to a live performance gig. Even just "ooze and oz" on chord tones while the lead singer does his/her thing is a great way to provide additional texture. And you don't have to do it all the time; just a little "icing on the cake" once in a while.

Also, the mfr. advises that the soundcheck is a must--that the unit is not only making your lead vocal "sound better," but is calibrating the VL2's performance, too. Maybe that's why you experienced unpredictable behavior.

If you could post some mp3 clips of trumpet examples through the VoiceLive 2, I'm sure people would like to hear them. That would be much more satisfying than my harmonized sampled collection! :thu:

DaveStergo

09-13-2009, 06:17 AM

Cool to see a Pro Review of this unit. I ordered mine from a local supplier in Melbourne here two months ago and I am still waiting on delivery. I am just about ready to purchase one from overseas. As a dedicated vocalist, I play instruments to accompany myself under protest, but I prefer just to let the cords to the work. I am going to experiment with the unit using a loop pedal to create pitching information. Theoretically I can lay down a bass line and then run this through the VoiceLive singing melodic lines. This should be enough information to create some useable harmonies. However, waiting, waiting ,waiting.

Jon Chappell

09-16-2009, 06:17 AM

Theoretically I can lay down a bass line and then run this through the VoiceLive singing melodic lines. This should be enough information to create some useable harmonies.

The VoiceLive 2 works great in this mode. If you define the key first (rather than letting the machine guess the key from the context), you'll get perfect diatonic harmonies. Now, if you do non-diatonic chords (any secondary dominant, such as a D7 in the key of C), you need to provide the unit with more info than just a root and a fifth from a bassline.

But the VoiceLive 2 provides several ways to do this.

Jon Chappell

10-02-2009, 06:38 AM

The VoiceLive 2 is great for inspiration. Sometimes songwriting can be a lonely and solitary task, so yesterday I turned on the VoiceLive 2 to keep me company. And to help me through a chorus of an Alison Krauss-type song I'm writing.

First I started with just a simple 3rd harmony. For the sustained notes at the ends of phrases, I switched to 4-voice mode. This seemed to work well. But that wasn't the cool part.

I was unintentionally using the VoiceLive 2's pitch correction feature on my voice. You actually want that in most cases, so that's the unit's default state. I just forgot, as I turned it on and started singing.

The rationale for pitch correction is this: If you didn't have it on, harmonizing an out-of-tune lead voice makes everything pretty "sloshing." (It does not make it "real" or "human"--it just sounds bad. Trust me, I know.) So the VoiceLive 2 gently corrects you. Since harmony singing generally has more static melodic movement, and you're trying to (again, generally) square off your melodic moves, you don't really notice pitch correction. At least, I didn't. I only discovered it when I forgot to put the unit in bypass to sing a verse. Then I heard the pitch correction, and went, "Has this been on the whole time?" It had, but I didn't notice.

If you record your singing, you can use the VoiceLive 2 the way a lot of people would use a plug-in, such as Antares' Auto-Tune. Except that you can use it live, so you're ensured a natural performance going onto disk. This means that if you hear something really bad, or at least unnatural, you can do a retake. You don't have this flexibility if you count on using a plug-in after the fact. You're stuck with what's already on disk.

So I'm learning to be a better singer with this unit. Mostly because it's keeping me honest about what I decide are "keeper" vocal takes. :)

Jon Chappell

10-02-2009, 10:17 AM

The VoiceLive 2 is great for acoustic guitar players. For one thing, the idea of having self-contained harmony singers seems to benefit the solo musician (or a duo), and many of those folks strap on acoustics when they do their thing.

But there’s another reason: the VoiceLive 2 sports a no-frills but powerful guitar processor onboard, independent of all the groovy vocal-processing magic it performs. This has two benefits:

You can use the VoiceLive 2 as your sole guitar processor for basic sound-shaping and effects.
By not needing an additional component to process the guitar, you maintain a much simpler signal chain.

The above two points would appeal to any guitarist, but particularly to acoustic guitarists. (Electric guitarists are used to carting around pedals and boards for their sound.)

The features the VoiceLive 2 devotes to processing just the guitar—with no involvement of the vocals—are impressive. They include the five “staple” effects you need to process any guitar for live and recording use: gain, EQ, compression, reverb, and modulation. This is like having a dedicated channel strip for your guitar. It’s especially handy for acoustic guitars, which benefit from having some degree of all five effects above, but shun the aesthetics and clutter of a large pedalboard.

Since you have to plug in your guitar to the VoiceLive 2 anyway (to drive the harmony effects), you might as well benefit from the additional control.

Having a virtual channel strip inside the VoiceLive 2 makes for a very tidy stage setup!

Below is the layout of the five effects. You dial these up by simply pressing the Guitar FX button. What could be simpler?
http://jonchappell.com/hc/VoiceLive2/Guitar_fx.jpg
http://jonchappell.com/hc/VoiceLive2/Guitar_tab.jpg

Jon Chappell

10-05-2009, 12:18 PM

I received a P.M. asking me to lay naked the VoiceLive 2's harmony processor--without fancy effects or a busy mix, or anything to obscure the quality of the harmonies.

I thought it was a pretty reasonable request, so here's what I did: I took a slow a cappella ballad (the Irish song Danny Boy, sung by a male tenor) and just ran the solo vocal through the unit, switching presets. The only prep work I did was to set the levels. But there are no effects, other than the onboard reverb. Nothing was added in post (i.e., between recording and converting to an mp3).

The results were stellar, as you can hear for yourself. In the mp3 file below, you can hear the first phrase ("Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling") in front, as it sounds as I recorded it (with the VoiceLive 2 in bypass mode). This is followed by the entire song (with the first line repeated) with different presets activated on the different phrases.

Here's how it broke down.

(Bypass): Oh Danny Boy, the pipes the pipes are calling

Doubling: Oh Danny Boy, the pipes the pipes are calling
Unison Choir: From glen to glen and down the mountainside
Harmony Above: The summer's gone and all the roses falling
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide
Harmony Above/Below: But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
Full Choir Harmony: 'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny Boy, Oh Danny Boy, I love you so.

Danny Boy.mp3 (http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/danny_boy_monomix.mp3)

For the second verse, I started with a high harmony and went to full choir.

To supply the harmonies, I simply brushed chords on the downbeats--something any moderately competent guitarist could do.

Chumly

10-05-2009, 12:30 PM

In a live setting, is there any real-world audible net benefit to this unit over the VL4?

Jon Chappell

10-05-2009, 12:56 PM

In a live setting, is there any real-world audible net benefit to this unit over the VL4?

Well, if by "live" and "real world," you mean readily discernible to the ear, the answer is yes. I've worked with the VL4 and it's a good unit.

The TC-H VoiceLive 2 is much smoother, less glitchy, more accurate, and more powerful. It's more expensive too, so it's not really fair to compare the two, but as a processor, the VoiceLive 2 is in a different class.

Tom Lang

10-05-2009, 01:02 PM

In a live setting, is there any real-world audible net benefit to this unit over the VL4?

I'd encourage you to check it out for yourself but in the meantime, I'll tell you a few things about what I like about it. Yup, I'm biased but I gig lots and VoiceLive 2 makes my vocals stand out and makes the band sound better as a result.

Individual effect access - I can turn what I want on and off within presets when I want. I'm always trying new things.
HardTune - I use it one or two songs a night but it grabs attention
Harmonies - They're great and they're predictable. The VL4 will react to the same chord differently at different times and that's offputting for me. Also I can switch to, and set key and scale mode in any preset from a standing position when I want that sound.
Megaphone - it's a modern effect and used wisely is great
Global Tone button - I'm set at the defaults and the overall sheen and slight compression sounds pro with only the effort of pushing the button and letting it do its work.
Tap tempo for delay.

I could go on but I hope this helps you make your decision.

Jon Chappell

10-05-2009, 01:11 PM

Welcome, Tom! :)

Tom is both a gigging musician and the guy from TC Helicon, so you can ask him any questions pertaining to the VoiceLive 2's features or design right here in this forum.

And if you missed it, check out post #8 (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=36109172&postcount=8) for a link to Tom's demo videos.

Tom Lang

10-05-2009, 01:24 PM

I think it may be cool to let users know how I use VoiceLive 2 in performance. I'll periodically post with interesting observations and tips in the upcoming weeks.

First, my setup. The VoiceLive 2 is on the left side of my micstand and my 24" guitar pedalboard is on my right. I run VoiceLive 2 with my left foot. Sometimes I have to dance and I'm fine with that!

I have about 7 favorite presets I've edited and moved to presets 1-7. The first 3 are exactly the same except they have 1up, 1down, and 1up+1dn. These cover 90% of my harmony needs. I've intensified the µMod effect in my presets to make a giant flange which I use sparingly. The echo is slap-ish and on at all times and the reverb I use only for ballads. Changing to reverb for ballads is a nice sonic treat for the dancers/audience. And the reverb in VoiceLive 2 is very nice of course ...

Tone is on at the default settings. Sometimes, if the pa is lacking in low end, I'll add warmth. If it's a good pa/monitors, I'll turn warmth off.

My presets have the harmonies turned off and the delay turned on so I can switch around to find what I want while singing/playing. My vocal sounds the same even as I switch presets. When I need the harmony, I'll switch it on and off.

My other presets are the attention-grabbers. One has Hardtune assigned to the FX pedal for modern takes on classic songs but only for a single verse or chorus section. We're not trying to be Kanye/Black Eyed Peas! I also use a Tone Drone preset as a cool vocoder effect during a rap by our drummer. For reggae songs the tap tempo with lots of delay level and feedback makes for a more authentic sound. Megaphone I use a lot for individual phrases ("all that glitters is gold") but you have to be careful and reduce the Transducer level a bit if your monitors are loud and the mains are near.

More later. Any comments from VoiceLive 2 users out there?

Chumly

10-05-2009, 08:52 PM

Thank you gentleman!

Chet Muse

10-07-2009, 07:25 AM

Tom Lang

10-07-2009, 11:03 AM

>>>What is "hard tune"? Is is exactly like auto-tune with the same sound/effect but just with a different name?

HardTune is our name for the A...Tune effect. It's like that effect with an update that will track your guitar chords so you don't have to set key if you're in a hurry. You can also back off on the tune speed so it becomes a more transparent pitch corrector. If you want to get crazy, HardTune also has octave shifting.

>>>Also, I need to use the "telephone" sound (the Beatles Come Together, Dave Edmunds I Hear You Knocking etc.). Can I get that by editing the "megaphone" effect you mention?

Yup, that's the one. There are already pre-programmed Transducer styles in VoiceLive 2 so you don't have to edit if you don't want to. Of course, you can dig right in with the distortion and band limiting parameters if you really want.

dug dog

10-08-2009, 02:10 PM

JimC

10-12-2009, 10:59 AM

Great to find this voice live 2 forum...I'm curious about something on my new voice live 2...you know how there's no such thing as a dumb question?

I play lead and sing lead mostly...do I need to tell the unit what key/scale I'm using all the time? I see Tom mentions he has a few presets that cover 90% of his needs. How does this work? I'm often not playing chords with thirds in them....do I need to alter my playing style accordingly?

As well, when I use the 'guitar thru' connection there is often a little 'wierdness' coming out of my amp for the first couple of notes/chords that I play. What is going on there?

Thanks again, from the begining of the long learning curve,
JimC

Jon Chappell

10-12-2009, 07:44 PM

I'm currently playing with a band in which I sing but don't play guitar and no one in the band is providing back up vox. That means that I'd need to route one of the guitar players through the VL2. Obviously, that guitar player is going to be concerned about the effect on his signal/tone.

You could split the line so that the guitar follows two paths: one goes through the guitarist's effects and amp as normal; the other goes to the VoiceLive 2 (but doesn't come out). You'd need a simple splitter box for this. This would have no effect on the tone.

Is there some way that you could compare the sound of a guitar run through the VL2 into an amp with the sound of the same guitar directly into the amp?

The VoiceLive 2 has a "Thru" jack in the back that simply passes the guitar signal through the box. Even though the unit offers guitar effects, you don't have to use them. You can bypass them. You are running the guitar signal through an extra box, but the effect would be minimal. If your guitarist is hypersensitive to this, he can always listen to the two scenarios (going direct through his gear vs. going first through the VoiceLive 2) to make sure there's no perceived effect on the sound.

But my vote would be to split the signal at the beginning of the chain.

dug dog

10-12-2009, 09:05 PM

You could split the line so that the guitar follows two paths: one goes through the guitarist's effects and amp as normal; the other goes to the VoiceLive 2 (but doesn't come out).

Thanks for the feedback. I must say I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't think of that fairly obvious solution. :confused:

Cheers.

Jon Chappell

10-13-2009, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I must say I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't think of that fairly obvious solution.

It's a good question, actually. Many guitarists are aware that they can split their guitar's output signal with no compromise to the tone, but some aren't. And probably most singers who don't dabble in guitar gear aren't aware that you can do this.

Since introducing a vocal harmonizer into a band my often come at the singer's urging, a little discussion of the possibilities are in order.

The VoiceLive 2 can create harmonies from a pre-defined scale (where no instrument input is required), from the audio of a guitar (where a guitar input is required, but it could be one leg of a split signal), or from a MIDI input (either guitar or keyboard). You can also drive the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online!

Jersey Jack

10-14-2009, 11:42 AM

Jon Chappell

10-14-2009, 09:25 PM

It's great to see this review, as I've been looking at the VoiceLive2 for some time now! I have a few questions, however, that haven't yet been clarified in the ongoing review:

1. How does one deal with harmonica sounds? I understand that I can simply turn off the harmonizer when I take out the harp, but I'm thinking about tone. Does blowing the harp through the vocal mic mess up the auto-engineered tone? If (as I assume) the VoiceLive2 readjusts the tone settings to optimize the harp, it may well take some time to readjust back to my voice when I start singing again. Would I be able to play a song that alternates vocal and harp lines?

2. Does the guitar effects include a tuner? (The Harmony-G does, and it's a useful feature.)

3. Does the modulation in the guitar effects produce a useful chorus sound?

Question 1: The automatic mic gain works only when you press and hold the reverb switch to activate it. After you get your vocal level set, you don't need to reactivate it for the harmonica. The harmonica just "uses" the vocal setting (as it would be in the real world). As for the adaptive functions--Tone, EQ, Compression, and Gate--all of them can be turned off once your vocal sound is set. It requires four separate knob turns, so it's a bit of a hassle. And these functions are global, meaning they can't be saved as a preset. So I'm not sure that turning them off is practical. But my experience is that the adaptive techniques work quickly and transparently, though I've never tried alternating with a harmonica. I have alternated, in quick succession, with my wife, whose voice is obviously very different from mine. And neither of us can hear the unit "working." Perhaps Tom has some insight here.

Questions 2 and 3: yes and yes. The Guitar FX section offers 24 different modulation effects (independent from the reverb), including such chorus or chorus-like effects as Micromod Clone, Micromod Wider, Thicken, Light Chorus, Medium Chorus, Wide Chorus, Mono Chorus, and Fast Rotor. Then it has several flanger effects. Judging the effects are a matter of taste, but I find them musical and useful, even though the only editable parameter is a level control. So if tweaking the chorus is important for your guitar sound, you may want to consider an outboard effect. The tuner works well and as expected.

Chumly

10-17-2009, 10:38 AM

It's a good question, actually. Many guitarists are aware that they can split their guitar's output signal with no compromise to the tone, but some aren't. And probably most singers who don't dabble in guitar gear aren't aware that you can do this.

Since introducing a vocal harmonizer into a band my often come at the singer's urging, a little discussion of the possibilities are in order.

The VoiceLive 2 can create harmonies from a pre-defined scale (where no instrument input is required), from the audio of a guitar (where a guitar input is required, but it could be one leg of a split signal), or from a MIDI input (either guitar or keyboard). You can also drive the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online!This driving of "the harmonies from an auxiliary source, like the output of an mp3 player, but you're less likely to find this in a band situation. But it does create another use for buying karaoke tracks online!" I assume you mean an independent soloed vocal track guide and not that the unit can extract the relevant harmony data from a fully mixed ensemble source.

Jon Chappell

10-17-2009, 11:47 AM

I assume you mean an independent soloed vocal track guide and not that the unit can extract the relevant harmony data from a fully mixed ensemble source.

No, I mean that the unit can derive the harmony from the fully mixed ensemble.

From page 29 in the manual:

Singing To Music Playback
VoiceLive 2 can derive musical information from fully mixed music tracks. For this alternative you’ll need:

Music source device.This could be an MP3 player, computer, CD player etc.
Recorded music without vocals.This could be your latest CD tracks minus your vocals or Karaoke tracks available on the web

Connect as described for MP3 Player (AUX input) in the Quick Start section. When you power up VoiceLive 2, it will auto-recognize the AUX input as the harmony music source. Choose a harmony preset and play your music source. You should hear your music, voice and the harmonies in your PA system or headphones.

Chumly

10-17-2009, 10:15 PM

No, I mean that the unit can derive the harmony from the fully mixed ensemble.That's intriguing and AFAICT way beyond the abilities of the Digitech VL4 in this regard, yes?

Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only?

What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts?

Would it work on just bass and drums?

What would it do if there was no pitched portion in the middle of the tune from which to discern a reference? Would it get "confused" trying to discern a key and harmony interval from the drums alone?

What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA?

Obliged and interested!

Tom Lang

10-19-2009, 11:11 AM

I'm currently playing with a band in which I sing but don't play guitar and no one in the band is providing back up vox. That means that I'd need to route one of the guitar players through the VL2. Obviously, that guitar player is going to be concerned about the effect on his signal/tone.

Is there some way that you could compare the sound of a guitar run through the VL2 into an amp with the sound of the same guitar directly into the amp?

This is a great method. If your guitarist is concerned about his tone (and that's a good thing) you guys can do a quick test by connecting the guitar directly to his pedalboard/amp first, having a listen then inserting VoiceLive 2 in the chain. You might have to switch the ground - that's why the switch is there - but the tone should be unaffected.

My signal chain is guitar > VoiceLive 2 > Cry Baby, etc. etc. > Line 6 Echo Park > Fender 65 Deluxe reissue (non-vibrato channel). Nice!

Tom Lang

10-19-2009, 11:19 AM

I play lead and sing lead mostly...do I need to tell the unit what key/scale I'm using all the time? I see Tom mentions he has a few presets that cover 90% of his needs. How does this work? I'm often not playing chords with thirds in them....do I need to alter my playing style accordingly?

As well, when I use the 'guitar thru' connection there is often a little 'wierdness' coming out of my amp for the first couple of notes/chords that I play. What is going on there?
JimC

If you're playing chords without thirds, then chord recognition's not the way to go. You must be playing hard rock/metal music (right?). It's not that VoiceLive 2 ignores the chords you're playing when no 3rd is present, we're still trying to make sense of what you're playing and offering what we think you'd like.

When harmonizing on a song chorus, my chords typically contain thirds. For some songs I use the same presets but I kick in the key/scale I want because this type of harmony works well on some songs. Scale mode also allows your guitar playing to wander into fills/riffs/basslines when you're harmonizing.

Re: Wierdness for the first few chords. Please use the VoiceSupport application to update to the latest version. This should fix it.

Tom Lang

10-19-2009, 11:24 AM

1. How does one deal with harmonica sounds? I understand that I can simply turn off the harmonizer when I take out the harp, but I'm thinking about tone. Does blowing the harp through the vocal mic mess up the auto-engineered tone? If (as I assume) the VoiceLive2 readjusts the tone settings to optimize the harp, it may well take some time to readjust back to my voice when I start singing again. Would I be able to play a song that alternates vocal and harp lines?

2. Does the guitar effects include a tuner? (The Harmony-G does, and it's a useful feature.)

3. Does the modulation in the guitar effects produce a useful chorus sound?

Re Q1: Harmonica! Yeah! How cool you want to get some effects on your harp. The distortion/megaphone effects would be totally cool. Tone is engineered for vocals, plain and simple. It would probably make your harmonica quite bright. The compression would likely be welcome though. You can edit the Tone feature so it's not automatic if you prefer - there's a 3 band EQ that you could tweak to optimize both your harp and singing voice I believe.

Re Q2: Yes, there is a tuner

Re Q3: Yes, there is a nice chorus in there. There are some other modulation effects that you might like to try as well.

Chumly

10-19-2009, 11:43 AM

Hi Tom,

are you able/willing to address my queries as per my post number 41 and my prior dialogue? Jon seems to have evaporated as of late, not that he has not been helpful overall.

Tom Lang

10-19-2009, 11:51 AM

Hi all,

This week's gig post has a tip to anyone using a vocal harmony processor in performance (and a note to self for me) as well as an interesting observation.

Before you say anything to audience after a song have a quick look down to confirm that harmony is off. I did this at my last gig and got a chuckle from the audience. I make no secret of the fact I use a harmony processor but saying "Thanks, that was a tune by..." in perfect harmony sounds ridiculous!

Lately I've observed that my co-musicians have been jumping in on the harmony lines that used to be solely VoiceLive 2 and I! I guess they've learned the harmony parts from VoiceLive 2 and now want to participate. The extra vocal thickness is welcome only now I have to get them both to use a VoiceTone Correct so we can have the same Tone.

'Til next time.

Tom Lang

10-19-2009, 12:02 PM

(Quoted from Chumly)
>>>Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only?

What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts?

Would it work on just bass and drums?

What would it do if there was no pitched portion in the middle of the tune from which to discern a reference? Would it get "confused" trying to discern a key and harmony interval from the drums alone?

What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA?

(Answer)
VoiceLive 2 monitors the pitches of what's coming in the Aux input. This could be a composite of bassline and chordal parts or just chordal music. A bassline alone (with or without drums) is likely to not work although the bass voice in a harmony line might follow ok. In this case, you can use Scale harmony which ignores the guitar or Aux inputs - when the key/scale combo works on your vocal melody and chordal movement, it works well.

The way to not hear what's coming in the Aux input is to turn the Aux Level parameter in the Setup I/O menu to Off. Jon asked me about this offline and may actually be responding as well.

Jon Chappell

10-19-2009, 12:03 PM

Hi Tom,

are you able/willing to address my queries as per my post number 41 and my prior dialogue? Jon seems to have evaporated as of late, not that he has not been helpful overall.

Chumly: I was catching up on the AES show this week, which was tough, given the travel, show coverage, video editing, etc. It's been a busy week. Hope you understand and will find the following responses helpful.

That's intriguing and AFAICT way beyond the abilities of the Digitech VL4 in this regard, yes?

I have used the DigiTech unit, but have never compared these functions side by side. So I can't comment.

Have you tried it in this mode and if so how well does it discern the underlying key and the apropos harmony interval as compared to a chordal guitar input only?
The unit can derive the tonic quite easily, and bases harmonies quickly and correctly on diatonic harmonies. If the chords are non-diatonic (secondary dominants), it needs to hear the active tone (in the case of a secondary dominant in C, the third--an F# of the D major chord).

What do you figure it's "listening" to, the bass line and/or chordal parts?

I don't know, except to say that it's eerily successful and observant. I'm not sure what algorithms it's employing--root priority, quantitative sampling, and repetition (its memory seems to improve over time).

Would it work on just bass and drums?
Depends on the music and the bassline, but yes, I ran a test with a solo bass. In normal 4/4 ballads with a I/V pattern in the bass, the VoiceLive 2 assumes diatonic harmony unless told otherwise (through programming). Or if you play a walking bass with the third in the chord, it will recognize that as such. But you'll hear it "correct" itself.

What if you do not want to hear the bass/drums/keys through the VoiceLive 2, but only the voice and the harmonies because the bass/drums/keys are already fed directly to the PA?
At first I thought this was an easy question. Now I'm not so sure. With the guitar, you can simply mute it. The unit still hears the guitar but doesn't output it. But no such provision is listed for the Aux In option. (There are two ways to balance the signal--through the volume on the source itself, and the input level. But these don’t mute the output.) It's not clear whether the Aux Level is an input or output. The unit is actually at my singer-partner's house, so I'll defer to Tom on this.

Chumly

10-19-2009, 12:26 PM

Hi Jon,

Much appreciated indeed, and yep you've been very helpful overall and specifically. I've checked the Digitech VL4 pdf manual and no reference to triggering from a fully mixed ensemble AKA "Singing To Music Playback" (without vocals) is listed as a possible source.

With the TC Helicon, it's odd there is no (obvious) way to mute the "Music Playback" source from the output. You'd think that would be highly desirable function in a solo act using MIDI triggered Rom'plers.

Jon Chappell

10-19-2009, 12:31 PM

(Quoted from Chumly)The way to not hear what's coming in the Aux input is to turn the Aux Level parameter in the Setup I/O menu to Off. Jon asked me about this offline and may actually be responding as well.

But Tom, will turning off the Aux Level allow the VoiceLive to still hear the Aux source material for harmonizing? In other words, is the Aux Level an output level? I tried to have my partner test this function, but the results were inconclusive. (Will explore myself later.)

This is a "problem" with the VoiceLive 2. When someone hears it, they go, "Whoa. Can I borrow that thing for a night?" :)

Jon Chappell

10-19-2009, 12:34 PM

With the TC Helicon It's odd there is no (obvious) way to mute the "Music Playback" source from the output. You'd think that would be highly desirable function in a solo act using MIDI triggered Rom'plers.

A good point, and let's try to get Tom to weigh in specifically on this issue. A work-around would be to input the Aux source material through the Guitar Input (since you wouldn't be using both the guitar and aux inputs simultaneously), where the Mute function is readily accessible.

Chumly

10-19-2009, 01:05 PM

Jon Chappell

10-19-2009, 01:23 PM

Hi Jon,

OK, but that's based on the assumption the guitar input uses the same detection parameters as does the aux input. However given that the aux input can have much more complexity than the guitar input, I wonder if this is the case?

Right. For example, expecting more "full frequency range" info from the Aux In, maybe the VoiceLive 2 has filters (of the high- and low-pass variety) in the Aux In detection circuitry only, to try to eliminate the non-pitch information (high-end cymbal crashes, subsonic kick drums, etc.) from gumming up the works, in addition to the obvious differences in optimizing the different signal types (hi-Z guitar vs. line level). Again, a good question, and one that's not covered in the manual. For this, we really need Tom, who may himself have to consult the TC-Helicon engineers.

And just for fun--and to get really hypothetical--consider this: What if you had an mp3 of a rhythm guitar playing through the Aux In? Would that produce better or worse results than an actual guitar playing the same part in the Guitar In jack?

Chumly

10-19-2009, 01:47 PM

Excellent; all we need do now is await His Master's Voice for the apropos answer!

Sonic_Liberator

10-22-2009, 08:15 AM

Hello,

I’m into acoustic finger picking styles that combine classical, folk, blues and jazz harmonies.
I’m curious of how efficient VoiceLive 2 at tracking finger picking harmonies with lots of passing notes, combined chords etc, etc?

Thank you

Jon Chappell

10-22-2009, 08:38 AM

I’m into acoustic finger picking styles that combine classical, folk, blues and jazz harmonies. I’m curious of how efficient VoiceLive 2 at tracking finger picking harmonies with lots of passing notes, combined chords etc, etc?

It's not really designed for that. The VoiceLive 2 works by applying harmonies to a monophonic (single pitched) line, such as a lead vocal, horn (sax, trumpet), or even single-note lead guitar. But not fingerpicking passages and already-harmonized note clusters.

Jon Chappell

10-26-2009, 08:10 AM

I'm getting quite a lot of PMs asking about basic functionality of the VoiceLive 2. Sometimes posts get lost in the shuffle, so here's a quote of one of the most important posts.

Read the text and listen to the link of "Danny Boy" below. Discuss. :)

I received a P.M. asking me to lay naked the VoiceLive 2's harmony processor--without fancy effects or a busy mix, or anything to obscure the quality of the harmonies.

I thought it was a pretty reasonable request, so here's what I did: I took a slow a cappella ballad (the Irish song Danny Boy, sung by a male tenor) and just ran the solo vocal through the unit, switching presets. The only prep work I did was to set the levels. But there are no effects, other than the onboard reverb. Nothing was added in post (i.e., between recording and converting to an mp3).

The results were stellar, as you can hear for yourself. In the mp3 file below, you can hear the first phrase ("Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling") in front, as it sounds as I recorded it (with the VoiceLive 2 in bypass mode). This is followed by the entire song (with the first line repeated) with different presets activated on the different phrases.

Here's how it broke down.

(Bypass): Oh Danny Boy, the pipes the pipes are calling

Doubling: Oh Danny Boy, the pipes the pipes are calling
Unison Choir: From glen to glen and down the mountainside
Harmony Above: The summer's gone and all the roses falling
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide
Harmony Above/Below: But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
Full Choir Harmony: 'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny Boy, Oh Danny Boy, I love you so.

Danny Boy.mp3 (http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/danny_boy_monomix.mp3)

For the second verse, I started with a high harmony and went to full choir.

To supply the harmonies, I simply brushed chords on the downbeats--something any moderately competent guitarist could do.

valleyguy

10-26-2009, 02:28 PM

Other than the the auto tune, what does the Voicelive 2 have that the VoiceTone Harmony-G does not have. It is less than half the price.

Jon Chappell

10-26-2009, 05:30 PM

Other than the the auto tune, what does the Voicelive 2 have that the VoiceTone Harmony-G does not have. It is less than half the price.

The Harmony-G is actually less than one quarter of the price of the VoiceLive2 ($200 vs. $900). But there's simply no comparison, though the HG is a good unit for $200. Compare the features, and then download the respective manuals and read through them. You'll see that the VoiceLive 2 is a deeper, more fully featured unit. You may be fine with the $200 HG, but it's a very different animal than the VoiceLive 2.

valleyguy

10-28-2009, 04:09 PM

Jon Chappell

11-02-2009, 07:34 AM

Thanks for the poop, Jon. Too bad there isn't an in-between model. I really don't need the auto tune, and I imagine that adds the most cost to the VoiceLive 2.

Always a problem with GAS, how much money to spend......

For me, the auto-tune function is one of the best features. It's the implementation of subtle but powerful features like this that really makes the VoiceLive 2 sound realistic--and it ensures general "in-tuneness" and a glitch-free performance. You really need this feature for more complex harmonies--meaning, really, anything beyond a simple third-above harmony.

Jon Chappell

11-02-2009, 07:43 AM

I used the VoiceLive 2 over the weekend at a gig where a bass player and myself both sang and played cover tunes of standards and "good country" (the client's request).

Two songs that turned heads were the Eagles' "Take It Easy" and Alison Krauss's version of the Don Schlitz/Paul Overstreet song "When You Say Nothing at All." They were particularly well-suited to the VoiceLive 2 treatment, and I think it's because the harmony sections (the choruses, in this case), are both fairly static, as far as melodic movement.

In the second verse of "Take It Easy," I used the third-above harmony for the first part: "Well, I'm a-standin' on a corner in Winslow, Arizona, such a fine sight to see. It's a girl my Lord, in a flatbed Ford slowin' down to take a look at me." And then the full three-part treatment for the chorus that immediately follows.

So I had three button presses to give me all I need: bypass, third-above, three-part. This is a really good template that I think I'll use on my own arrangements.

tradivoro1

11-02-2009, 06:42 PM

Hi, I'm kinda of late to the party, but I'll ask a comparison question... It appears that before this unit, voicelive 2, there was a voicelive 1... So, is there really any magnificent difference between the 2 as far as sound is concerned...

And also, someone else asked this question, but I don't think it was interpreted right... if you main backing on guitar is playing intricate finger picking, are the chords that you play fingerpicking going to be picked up by the unit as harmony to trigger the vocal harmony???

any info appreciated, thanks...

Jon Chappell

11-03-2009, 05:59 AM

Hi, I'm kinda of late to the party, but I'll ask a comparison question... It appears that before this unit, voicelive 2, there was a voicelive 1... So, is there really any magnificent difference between the 2 as far as sound is concerned...

Certainly the added features that include increased polyphony (8 voices vs. 4), adaptive correction, and improved effects blocks directly improve on the original sound. This is to ignore for a moment the other improvements in interface design and the inclusion of the onboard wizard. The original VoiceLive is still in stock in many retail outlets and is cheaper, so I think it's a good question. But I suspect the VoiceLive 2 has a later generation of processors and rewritten algorithms. (I'll try to get Tom Lang to confirm this.) And if this is so, it tips the scales.

And also, someone else asked this question, but I don't think it was interpreted right... if you main backing on guitar is playing intricate finger picking, are the chords that you play fingerpicking going to be picked up by the unit as harmony to trigger the vocal harmony??? any info appreciated, thanks...

You're right; I believe I did misunderstand the question when I answered it the first time. (I thought the poster was trying to harmonize the guitar part.) Fingerpicking is a snap for the VoiceLive 2. I regularly perform Paul Simon's "The Boxer" and Crosby, Stills, and Nash's "Helplessly Hoping," and the unit nails these harmonies quickly and accurately.

tradivoro1

11-03-2009, 06:59 AM

Jon Chappell

11-03-2009, 08:35 AM

Thanks Jon, appreciate the reply on the fingerpicking and other aspects of the unit... Yes, I guess my main concern about the older unit is the sound of the voice reproduction algorithms when harmonizing in a live setting...

Okay, let's see if our TC-Helicon contact, Tom Lang, can dig up the answer. (It's not provided in the manual or any of the promotional information.)

Stay tuned! :)

Tom Lang

11-03-2009, 10:59 AM

To answer the question regarding the sonic difference between VoiceLive "classic" and VoiceLive 2, I guess that can be answered with a resounding "it depends". If you sing one note and have both harmony processors sing a single harmony with no reverb, tone, or humanization etc turned on, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. If you use fixed key and scale harmony the difference, again, may not be discernable.

It's when you plug your guitar in so that it guides harmonies that the difference becomes striking. In VoiceLive "classic" The harmony voices will simply not follow your chord changes. Also, when you turn the tone and reverb on and play a few songs while experimenting with different arrangements of harmony and the other new goodies that VoiceLive 2 brings that the difference becomes apparent. When you start editing, building step chains and generally start having fun with turning effects on and off within the preset in performance, you'll appreciate the other differences.

You can still make great music with the original - I did for several years - and the price is attractive for sure. The best thing is to try and get them in a room together and see what's best for you.

Regarding finger picking, it works fine.

Tom Lang

11-03-2009, 11:16 AM

Here's another VoiceLive 2 note with observations from a rehearsal last night. Our duo, the Acousticats was rehearsing tunes in my studio. We both sing and play amplified acoustic guitars at gigs (and we use a drum machine to make the dancers crazy) but when rehearsing it's great to just use our unamplified voices and the guitars. The guitars especially sound much better without the pickups.

To get back to the VoiceLive 2 thread, I still need to test and edit presets for harmony in rehearsal but don't want to overpower April, my duo partner and main singer by having both my lead voice and the harmonies come through a PA. I had a little VoiceSolo (TC-Helicon's powered monitor) hooked up to VoiceLive 2 with my lead voice and reverb etc. turned off so that when I engaged VoiceLive 2, it sounded like someone else had chimed in in the room. For those intimate, acoustic jams, this is a fantastic technique. Of course, if you have a roomful of great singers you can gently put VoiceLive 2 back in its case!

At one point I was singing the lead part in Nowhere Man by the Beatles with a single harmony below me and April singing the upper harmony. Huge! When that "(Amaj) making all his (Am) nowhere plans ..." line hits, it sure is nice to have the harmony following the guitar.

tradivoro1

11-03-2009, 02:22 PM

Tom, thanks very much for your answer, I still just want to clarify something that's not clear to me... It appears that what you're saying is that if you're using Voicelive classic strictly through midi, e.g., a keyboard or laptop input putting in chords and musical data, the machine works fine... However, it doesn't work so hot with a guitar driving the harmonic changes?

To answer the question regarding the sonic difference between VoiceLive "classic" and VoiceLive 2, I guess that can be answered with a resounding "it depends". If you sing one note and have both harmony processors sing a single harmony with no reverb, tone, or humanization etc turned on, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. If you use fixed key and scale harmony the difference, again, may not be discernable.

It's when you plug your guitar in so that it guides harmonies that the difference becomes striking. In VoiceLive "classic" The harmony voices will simply not follow your chord changes. Also, when you turn the tone and reverb on and play a few songs while experimenting with different arrangements of harmony and the other new goodies that VoiceLive 2 brings that the difference becomes apparent. When you start editing, building step chains and generally start having fun with turning effects on and off within the preset in performance, you'll appreciate the other differences.

You can still make great music with the original - I did for several years - and the price is attractive for sure. The best thing is to try and get them in a room together and see what's best for you.

Regarding finger picking, it works fine.

Tom Lang

11-03-2009, 04:31 PM

tradivoro1

11-03-2009, 05:00 PM

I didn't really intend this to mean MIDI or laptop control, just that, if you compare a "naked" harmony voice on each unit -however they're controlled- the difference is tough to hear.

VoiceLive classic doesn't work at all with a guitar driving changes - it doesn't have that feature built in.

I see, no guitar at all.... Well, that's good to know... One of the reasons I was attracted to the tc helicon units, the newer and the older, is because there is a midi input and output in the unit, as opposed to the competitor's which only have a guitar input...

So, that's good to know that it's only with this incarnation of the top model of tc helicon harmony products, it can be driven by a guitar as well as midi...

gc24

11-06-2009, 03:49 PM

I am also late for the party. I ahave been away from this site for awhile and have owned the Digitech 4 and Pro, have the Harmony G and had the Voice Live 2 when it first came out, but sent it back as I didn't like the sounds that it produced. Did I miss something here?

Jon Chappell

11-10-2009, 04:07 PM

This weekend, I worked with a female vocalist who wanted to hear how some of her songs would sound with harmony. This was a perfect opportunity for having someone else (other than me, because I know the unit pretty well now) try out the VoiceLive 2.

Initially she was thrown by the unit, because it tracks your every move. I told her to "straighten out" the parts she wanted harmony on, and that did the trick. She reduced the scoops, fall-offs, and flourishes, and the VoiceLive 2 not only sounded better, the song actually sounded better. I thought, "What if we could give this to the American-Idol types who over-decorate and over-stylize the melody?" It might teach people to, you know, "just sing the dang song."

In any event, we tried another exercise that sort of captured the best of both worlds--her flourishes but with stable harmony. To accomplish this, I sang her lead parts, but harmonized them as if I were a female vocalist singing an octave higher. This required me to octave-displace the harmony notes (women sing an octave higher than men). Then we sang together, her solo, me through the VoiceLive 2. I muted my lead vocal, so that only the harmonies came through the P.A. I ended up moving across the room, because she could hear my lead acoustically, and I wanted her to have the full effect.

It worked. She still had the freedom to add flourishes and trills as inspiration dictated, but without making the harmonies sound artificially locked-step to the lead.

This was something new to me, too. Normally, when I sing with a female lead, I go into the Alison Krauss or Highway 101 mode: One female and two males singing harmony. But in this case, my job was to clone the lead singer.

dug dog

11-10-2009, 04:31 PM

Hmmm.... very interesting.

Chumly

11-10-2009, 04:33 PM

I have sung unison and muted my main vocal to obtain the harmonies live in real time with many singers, many different harmony units, over a number of years.

Jon Chappell

11-10-2009, 04:42 PM

I have sung unison and muted my main vocal to obtain the harmonies live in real time with many singers, many different harmony units, over a number of years.

Yeah, I figured I didn't invent this. ;)

Any tips? War stories? Amusing anecdotes?

Chumly

11-10-2009, 05:30 PM

Only that at lower stage volumes what the audience hears may not be what you hope they hear given that (at least for me) my unamplifed voice can project, plus of course how you emulate the other person's phrasing matters to the outcome.

I've been using various vocal harmonizers in my solo act for so long now (starting with the DigiTech IPS33B way back when) the oddness many people experience with them is in the faded past.

There is no doubt that a solid sense of relative pitch is required as is the ability to quickly obtain and sustain the given pitch with precision. Many people who think they can sing well realize that a vocal harmonizer can easily exacerbate their technical shortcomings, as you learned with your partner.

Not to denigrate Dylanesque vocal styings but...pity the poor ears having to listen to the output of a machine tracking that!

gc24

11-10-2009, 06:41 PM

So are the 3rd and 5th up harmonies that much better than the ones with the HG?

tradivoro1

11-12-2009, 07:23 AM

Has anybody experimented with using contrapuntal harmonies being fed to the machine via midi? For instance, the song "If I fell" by the beatles, is very contrapuntal and not just parallel thirds or a voice above or below...

I understand that you can play a midi line and if you sing against that, it will create a voice from the midi line... You can also play the midi line into your sequencer... You'd have to have the sequencer play drums or something as well just to keep time for live performance... This is on page 26 of the manual...

Jon Chappell

11-12-2009, 07:53 AM

There is no doubt that a solid sense of relative pitch is required as is the ability to quickly obtain and sustain the given pitch with precision. Many people who think they can sing well realize that a vocal harmonizer can easily exacerbate their technical shortcomings, as you learned with your partner.

Very true. You have to "learn" how to best work a vocal harmonizer--even one as good as the VoiceLive 2, with its excellent tracking, humanizing elements (differing degrees of portamento for each voice, for instance), etc. I found in my own singing that while I was good at nailing sustained tones (at the ends of phrases), sometimes the rapidly moving voices in between were, how shall I say, a little "swimmy." The harmonizer had no problem making this painfully evident.

Not to denigrate Dylanesque vocal stylings but...pity the poor ears having to listen to the output of a machine tracking that!

Yes, there are some things it just won't work on. (I can't think of a better example than Dylan.) And worse, it makes it screamingly and comically obvious when it doesn't!

Jon Chappell

11-12-2009, 08:16 AM

Has anybody experimented with using contrapuntal harmonies being fed to the machine via midi?

Yes, I have (see below).

For instance, the song "If I fell" by the beatles, is very contrapuntal and not just parallel thirds or a voice above or below...

I understand that you can play a midi line and if you sing against that, it will create a voice from the midi line... You can also play the midi line into your sequencer... You'd have to have the sequencer play drums or something as well just to keep time for live performance... This is on page 26 of the manual...

You make a good point (no pun intended) about counterpoint. You clearly understand how it works (and I'm here to tell you it works exactly "as advertised"), but for those who would like clarification, here's what we're talking about:

If you use the audio input (guitar or mp3), as opposed to MIDI, the unit harmonizes in parallel or oblique motion. Oblique motion is where one voice moves and the other remains stationary. For example, if you're singing a C on a C chord, the VL2 will "sing" E a third above. If you keep singing a C while changing chords to F, the VL2 will move its third up to F, the closest chord tone. You stay put, the harmonizer moves, based on the harmonic input (guitar audio, in this case). The converse is also true (the VL2 will sustain while you move).

One of my first tests was Crosby, Stills & Nash's "Helplessly Hoping." On the line where it goes: "They are three together, they are for____ each other," the word "for" has a chord change from G (the tonic) to F (the flat-seven). But the lead vocal sustains a D note throughout. If you know about harmony and about harmonizers, to hear any unit do this blows you away.

But to get to counterpoint. Yes, the only way to have the unit not only play counterpoint but any specific, prescribed harmony is to do it through MIDI. But this is still much faster than, say, multi-tracking your own voice. And better. For example, I downloaded some MIDI files of four-part Bach chorales (hymns, which have four independent, contrapuntal voices) and imported them into my DAW. Then I took the MIDI out and patched it into the VoiceLive 2. Listening to my DAW's click track through headphones, I was able to harmonize myself through sequencing (I can't play that many parts simultaneously on keyboard). And what's more, a single voice can't really sing from the lowest bass part to the highest soprano comfortably. So I avoided having to sight-sing four parts, overdubbing on each pass, plus I didn't have to go into Darth Vader mode or Chipmunks on helium to reach the lowest and highest notes.

And MIDI response is super fast--faster and more reliable even than the audio/pitch detection. (Though that's impressively speedy and accurate in this incarnation of the VoiceLive series.)

As I said earlier in the review, "re-voxing" (analogous to "re-amping" a guitar) with the VoiceLive 2 has major recording implications, even though the unit is aimed chiefly at the live market.

zelmobeaty

11-12-2009, 11:09 AM

Very true. You have to "learn" how to best work a vocal harmonizer--even one as good as the VoiceLive 2, with its excellent tracking, humanizing elements (differing degrees of portamento for each voice, for instance), etc. I found in my own singing that while I was good at nailing sustained tones (at the ends of phrases), sometimes the rapidly moving voices in between were, how shall I say, a little "swimmy." The harmonizer had no problem making this painfully evident.

Yes, there are some things it just won't work on. (I can't think of a better example than Dylan.) And worse, it makes it screamingly and comically obvious when it doesn't!

Don't be so sure about that. I have a Howlin Wolf/Tom Waits voice and the Harmony G tracks really good when using the upper third.

Jon Chappell

11-12-2009, 01:10 PM

Don't be so sure about that. I have a Howlin Wolf/Tom Waits voice and the Harmony G tracks really good when using the upper third.

I stand corrected. Just goes to show you, you should never assume anything until you've tried it. :)

tradivoro1

11-12-2009, 01:20 PM

That's great to know... I know eventually I'll get this unit, it's definitely geared for the studio (88.1 and 96k sampling modes) as well as live performance, and I'm glad to hear that the guitar tracking unit is capable of doing the harmonic voice leading automatically...

I guess now I'll have to start learning palestrina and lasso motets as part of my repertoire... I think it will give me an edge over the guy doing the smoke on the water covers... :)

Yes, I have (see below).

But to get to counterpoint. Yes, the only way to have the unit not only play counterpoint but any specific, prescribed harmony is to do it through MIDI. But this is still much faster than, say, multi-tracking your own voice. And better. For example, I downloaded some MIDI files of four-part Bach chorales (hymns, which have four independent, contrapuntal voices) and imported them into my DAW. Then I took the MIDI out and patched it into the VoiceLive 2. Listening to my DAW's click track through headphones, I was able to harmonize myself through sequencing (I can't play that many parts simultaneously on keyboard). And what's more, a single voice can't really sing from the lowest bass part to the highest soprano comfortably. So I avoided having to sight-sing four parts, overdubbing on each pass, plus I didn't have to go into Darth Vader mode or Chipmunks on helium to reach the lowest and highest notes.

And MIDI response is super fast--faster and more reliable even than the audio/pitch detection. (Though that's impressively speedy and accurate in this incarnation of the VoiceLive series.)

As I said earlier in the review, "re-voxing" (analogous to "re-amping" a guitar) with the VoiceLive 2 has major recording implications, even though the unit is aimed chiefly at the live market.

Jon Chappell

11-12-2009, 01:53 PM

I guess now I'll have to start learning palestrina and lasso motets as part of my repertoire... I think it will give me an edge over the guy doing the smoke on the water covers... :)

OMG, now you're taking me back to music school. Yeah, the VoiceLive 2 absolutely rawks out on sixth species counterpoint. ;)

Chumly

11-12-2009, 02:04 PM

Don't be so sure about that. I have a Howlin Wolf/Tom Waits voice and the Harmony G tracks really good when using the upper third.For what it's worth it was not little 'ol me that said it would not track but only "pity the poor ears having to listen to the output of a machine tracking that!"

Having said the above I'll add that if you're happy, then I'm happy you're happy about being happy.

Jon Chappell

11-12-2009, 02:39 PM

For what it's worth it was not little 'ol me that said it would not track but only "pity the poor ears having to listen to the output of a machine tracking that!"

Having said the above I'll add that if you're happy, then I'm happy you're happy about being happy.

Chumly is right.

It was I, not he, who made the breach of logic by conflating a "pitiable sound" with "not working." They are two different things, of course. If you're polishing a turd, you don't blame the polish for doing its job well.

And I'm not equating Dylan/Wolf/Waits/Chuck with a turd, so no mail, please. And may I say that if Chuck sounds like a cross between Howlin' Wolf and Tom Waits, I'm jealous. And if I could write like Dylan, who cares that my voice sounds like geese farts on a muggy day? Oh, wait--that's Leo Kottke's self-assessment.

tradivoro1

11-12-2009, 05:03 PM

Actually, I heard your version of danny boy just using the presets and chords and that was very impressive... I could see doing that with a keyboard with a volume off and the midi going into the machine, giving similar results...

I know in an irish bar, on st. patrick's day, at the right time of the night, just announce your going to do danny boy acapella... With that version, there won't be a dry eye in the house.... :)

Jon Chappell

11-13-2009, 10:39 AM

Actually, I heard your version of danny boy just using the presets and chords and that was very impressive... I could see doing that with a keyboard with a volume off and the midi going into the machine, giving similar results...

Well, that's almost exactly how I did it, except that I used a guitar. The singer sang, and I strummed chords behind him (adding substitutions to taste, such as the IV minor chord or a I to I7 into a IV--listen to Verse 2 for these--and a bVI/Italian 6th substitution at the final cadence). The VoiceLive 2 allows you to mute the output of the instrument input, so that it still hears it for harmonizing, but doesn't output it. If you used a keyboard with MIDI, you could get even more prescriptive and defined with the harmonies, though as you point out, using just presets produces a result that is pretty darn impressive. (http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/danny_boy_monomix.mp3)

I know in an irish bar, on st. patrick's day, at the right time of the night, just announce your going to do danny boy acapella... With that version, there won't be a dry eye in the house.... :)

Not to mention all the tips they would shower upon you--or at the least unending offers for a pint of Guinness!

uberandout

11-15-2009, 12:07 PM

hi all

I have owned the original Voicelive for about 5 years and am very happy with it despite some problems. I am very interested in the V2, especially regarding the guitar driven harmonies, an area I didn't fully utilize before.

I have developed my own vocal sound involving the thickener on V1, and wondered if the V2 has thickening as I have seen no mention of it? If so would it be in the mod or doubling section, and can it therefore be kicked in despite the preset being used? Is it possible to emulate the presets on V1 near enough? eg Can I get a close simulation for plate2 reverb with the V2?

Secondly, I experienced heavy feedback while using the V1 live in a band/small club setting, to the point where it was impossible to use any eq and little compression. This worries me with regards to the auto tone. Can the tone settings be manually overridden for say the eq, whilst still auto gating, compressing etc? And has the V2's propensity towards generating feedback been improved?

Finally I had a few problems with the confusing output overload led on V1, sometimes it seemed suggesting there was insufficient processing power for some configurations of the unit. Also the limiter on my machine stopped working. Has the input/output situation now been simplified with auto gain, is there still a limiter and has the output overload been negated? Is there also now enough processing power to cover all eventualities?

Thanks for your time and a wonderful unit.

cheers

J :)

Jon Chappell

11-16-2009, 07:02 AM

I have developed my own vocal sound involving the thickener on V1, and wondered if the V2 has thickening as I have seen no mention of it? If so would it be in the mod or doubling section, and can it therefore be kicked in despite the preset being used? Is it possible to emulate the presets on V1 near enough? eg Can I get a close simulation for plate2 reverb with the V2?

Yes, Double (which is what I think you're describing as "thickening") is a dedicated footswitch that's preset independent. Here's an image of the front panel, along with page 74 in the manual. So it's quite powerful:
http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/double.jpg
__
http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/double_text.jpg

There are actually three ways to thicken a texture: 1) Use the dedicated Double function; 2) Use the microMod section, which gives you the standard chorus/flanging options; 3) Dedicate harmony voices to unison, then employ humanizing functions. #1 is definitely the best way, and #2 is viable, too. (I list #3 as a more theoretical method, but you can see the flexibility here.)

As to reverb, there are nine plate algorithms: Smooth Plate, Real Plate, Reflection Plate, Thin Plate, Bright Plate, Real Plate Short, Real Plate Long, Jazz Plate, and Quick Plate. Chances are, you'll be able to replicate your sound with one of those.

Secondly, I experienced heavy feedback while using the V1 live in a band/small club setting, to the point where it was impossible to use any eq and little compression. This worries me with regards to the auto tone. Can the tone settings be manually overridden for say the eq, whilst still auto gating, compressing etc?

Yes. You simply turn "Adaptive" to Off in the EQ tab. (Any of the four parameters can be individually set to Off or Adaptive.)

And has the V2's propensity towards generating feedback been improved?

I actually noticed that I had to be more careful about feedback once I had the VoiceLive 2 active as opposed to bypass. I don't know if it's been improved since the first generation, but it is one of my routines to more carefully position the speakers, etc., when setting up the unit for performance. Perhaps it's something inherent to vocal processing?

Has the input/output situation now been simplified with auto gain, is there still a limiter and has the output overload been negated? Is there also now enough processing power to cover all eventualities?

Input/Output is automated through the adaptive approach, and I assume the unit uses a limiter to prevent the "output overload" you describe. But the limiter is not user-configurable, or at least it's not called that. You can set the Shape and Compress parameters manually, or have them set via the automatic Adaptive method. This has been sufficient for every situation I've put the unit through, and as long as I set the unit up via a soundcheck with my vocalists, I have never experienced any failure of the unit to handle the range of singing styles and dynamics approaches I've thrown at it.

Jon Chappell

11-16-2009, 03:19 PM

Has the input/output situation now been simplified with auto gain, is there still a limiter and has the output overload been negated? Is there also now enough processing power to cover all eventualities?

Just to clarify, I'm not sure I understand this very specific question (see my italics added above), as I've never been aware of an issue with output overload or lack of processing power. Perhaps Tom Lang can weigh in on this.

uberandout

11-16-2009, 06:30 PM

Jon Chappell

11-17-2009, 06:59 AM

hi Jon

Many thanks for you comprehensive reply, that's helped a great deal. :)

The issue with output overload is that the original Voicelive had 2 red leds on top, one for input overload and one for output overload. The input level of the mic was naturally adjusted so as not to overload the input led and the limiter was linked to this.

The output overload however was related to internal processing and could thus appear anytime. The manual told you to turn the level of the harmonies/fx down to cure the problem, but this didn't always work. However the issue was largely inaudible and sporadic.

That is until the last week when out of the blue the red output overload is already permanently on on default program1 when I turn on the machine, and affects about half the 100 presets, now causing a horrible distorted sound on one/both channels. It stays on even if I turn all the levels (lead, harmony, fx, instrument) down/off and even if I unplug everything?!*:confused:

Weirdly if I scroll up and down the presets it (sometimes) vanishes randomly and all presets return to normal. However this has been getting worse and at the last attempt I couldn't get rid of the problem.

It seems like the machine has somehow overloaded internally and now is partially stuck like that... all very confusing, and that's why I would rather not have to deal with an output overload at all, just an input level as with most other equipment.

Despite this apparently sad demise, I still love my machine and the concept hence the interest in an upgrade. (though it would be nice to fix my original somehow!).

Voicelive 2 does sound incredible and a real re-design rather than an upgrade. I'm moist I admit.

:P

Thanks for the detailed reply. The issue is much clearer now for your explanation.

Two things are obvious:

1) They've completely changed the VoiceLive 2 w/respect to "output overload." There's no indicator nor any mention in the manual of this. So they somehow have "designed this out" of the upgraded unit.

2) You clearly have a malfunctioning unit that should be fixed. The original VoiceLive is still being sold new ($500) and used (Musician's Friend lists 2 used units for $399 and $439), so you should send yours back to TCE, get if fixed, and turn it over in favor of the VL2, if you're keen on the guitar-input harmony driver, plus other improvements. (You obviously have an appreciation for these more esoteric functions.) TC is a very good company w/regard to customer support, so you shouldn't have any problem.

Since you brought up "guitar driven harmonies" as part of your incentive to consider upgrading, I think that alone is worth the effort. I point (again) to my Danny Boy (http://jonchappell.com/hc/voicelive2/danny_boy_monomix.mp3) recording, which is completely driven by my strumming guitar chords on the downbeat. I did this all in post but on the fly--taking the a cappella vocal and running it through the VL2, just switching presets after each line and playing different chords. Listen to verse 2, where I introduce more 7th and minor chord variations, for example. But the elegance of the interface, the increased feature set, and the overall power boost really make this a different animal than the original. Try to get your hands on one at your local music emporium, and page through the menus to get a taste of the expansion of the VL2 over the original.

Good luck.

uberandout

11-18-2009, 03:42 AM

Hi Jon

Thanks for your reply and information.

I'm so glad the output overload has been sacked!

I have written to TC and they have given me an address to send the unit for repair. I'm wondering how expensive/economical it is going to be however as I am obviously outside of the warranty period.

As far as the VL2 is concerned, you have helped convince me it is the way forward and I am very excited about the prospect of fully utilizing all the programs thanks to guitar triggering. I will be acquiring one soon.

best wishes

Jay

Jon Chappell

11-19-2009, 09:43 AM

I have written to TC and they have given me an address to send the unit for repair. I'm wondering how expensive/economical it is going to be however as I am obviously outside of the warranty period.

Well, based on your inclinations to acquire the VL2, I'd say it's definitely a sound economical strategy to go the repair route. This way, you can sell a working unit to finance the new one. The fact that the original VL1 is still in stock and selling new should be reassuring (though it's no guarantee). Simply subtract the repair and shipping fee from the selling price, and that's the $ that you apply toward the purchase price of the VL2. Obviously, you factor in the repair estimate into the equation before deciding.

Sure, there's risk, because you don't know what your final selling price will be--or whether your VL1 will sell at all, even after you've spent the money to repair it. But the VL2 is considerably more expensive than the VL1, which works in your favor, as it implies there are two markets for the VL series.

These two acts (selling the VL1, acquiring the VL2) don't necessarily have to happen in series, either. But it's true, no one can predict if you'll sell the VL1, so yes, it's risky. What I usually do is just prepare for the worst: if I can't sell a piece of gear that I've upgraded/replaced, I know I can donate it to someone worthy. Karma's a pretty good consolation, when you can't get real lucre.

Chumly

11-20-2009, 01:36 PM

A few things of note with respect to the
TC VoiceLive 2**
TC VoiceWorks**
DigiTech Vocalist Live 4**

None of the three supply adequate phantom power for my AKG C420 condenser headset (distortion is evident on transients) so I need to use an outboard preamp tapped post trim/phantom - pre-fader/EQ.

All three lose transparency, all three lose transient response, and all three inject artifacts when in series with all processing off. Yes even when phantom power and initial buffering is supplied externally thus line-in is used on the units.

So they sound much better overall if run as a parallel effect...thus defeating a fair portion of the all-in-one benefit!

So they sound much better if phantom power (and likely initial buffering too) is supplied outboard...thus again defeating a fair portion of the all-in-one benefit!

How did I initially assess this?

AKG C420 condenser headset mic
AKG K 240 headphones (driven from the board's headphone amp not the unit's themselves)
Mackie 1640 VLZ (or equivalent)

You'd think by now they could easily implement a signal path that was virtually indistinguishable from the source when in serial bypass, but that's not the case with these three units. And funnily enough, I am not talking solely about a sterile studio environment because once I defined the testing procedure, I clearly noticed it with the following live setup.

AKG C420 condenser headset mic
Mackie 1640 VLZ mixer
QSC PLX 1804 power amp
EV ZX5 speakers

Now whether the three unit's issues (when run dry in series) can be readily noticed by the average ear (simply by listening to my live setup for example) is open to conjecture...but I can say with certainty that when I am singing the degradation by direct comparison is obvious. I would argue that there is merit to the claim that certain deficiencies are most obvious while actually singing versus listening to the results after the fact. Having said all that however I still think many people could tell the difference after the fact as well as telling the difference while singing.

And no it's not a question of the inevitable latency (it's always there when the units are in series - even with all effects off) nor was there any mixing of the original signal with the unit's dry signal, so phase cancellation was not a factor.

** I own both the TC VoiceWorks, and the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 and thoroughly tested the TC VoiceLive 2.

Comments welcome.

kvalois

11-21-2009, 09:40 PM

Jon or Tom or anyone!!!!

I would love to read a concise overview of how the Harmony G stacks up to the Voice Live 2.

Is the Voice Live 2 TOO DIFFICULT to master for people who are not savvy in all this "technical" talk????:confused:

Also, as "gmhuber" cautions in his You Tube video of the VL 2-- is there a problem with using the VL 2 to record?? According to "gmhuber," TC Helicon itself admits that there is a "bug" to be fixed!!!!!

Karl

Chumly

11-21-2009, 11:09 PM

The Harmony G is inferior to Voice Live 2.
The Voice Live 2 is easy to use for neophytes.
It's no problem to record using the Voice Live 2.
To fully use any harmonizer "savvy in all this technical talk" is of benefit - knowledge will set you free.

joe1

11-22-2009, 09:31 PM

Can you help me out with EQ on the Live 2? i do have the Voice Works Plus and there is on option to Eq the lead. can i do the same with this machine? if yes how do i do it?
Thanks

Chumly

11-22-2009, 10:21 PM

Do you not have the manual?

joe1

11-23-2009, 07:05 AM

Do you not have the manual?

I do have the manual , the problem with the manual is that its very limited in details and i can not find this future there,
if you can hekp me with this i would apriciate it,
Thanks

Jon Chappell

11-23-2009, 07:13 AM

Can you help me out with EQ on the Live 2? i do have the Voice Works Plus and there is on option to Eq the lead. can i do the same with this machine? if yes how do i do it?
Thanks
Yes, you can EQ the lead, with precise parameters for low/high freq. and gain, plus a parametric band w/gain, freq., and width. Access it by hitting TONE and selecting the EQ tab.

This is clearly described on p. 45 of the manual (see the link in post #9 of this thread.

joe1

11-23-2009, 08:19 AM

Yes, you can EQ the lead, with precise parameters for low/high freq. and gain, plus a parametric band w/gain, freq., and width. Access it by hitting TONE and selecting the EQ tab.

This is clearly described on p. 45 of the manual (see the link in post #9 of this thread.

Thanks very much jon
i didn't know about the online manual, all i got with the machine was a short basic Manual, thanks for directing me there
Joe

Jon Chappell

11-23-2009, 09:40 AM

Thanks very much jon
i didn't know about the online manual, all i got with the machine was a short basic Manual, thanks for directing me there
Joe

This is a good point, and one that's caused confusion for a couple of VL2 owners (myself included).

The manual that ships with the unit is a short quick-start manual. The detailed manual is available only through the online/pdf version.

It bears repeating, so here's the link to the pdf manual (http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicelive2support.asp).

And to reiterate for all those reading here, in any powerful piece of gear, you should download the manual to see how its features explained in full. This manual is not as good as some others I've seen, in that it doesn't show you graphic representations of the menus, nor does it list, for example, all 30 guitar reverb programs. But it certainly bears close study.