so does it really matter if your guitar is a counterfeit...

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

... when 99.99% of you folks play fake (unoriginal) music on it?

[alcohol]

what brings your sour grapes?

[gtrjones]

Yes. When we play a cover, we play in a venue that's (presumably) paid their ASCAP and/or BMI fees. In this town, that's a pretty safe bet, as most clubs here know about how the business works. Those ASCAP and BMI fees are used to pay the owners of the copyrights. I'm not sure how the calculation works, but that's what the fees are collected for, and I know that ASCAP and BMI make payments to artists from those funds.

OTOH, when someone sells a 'Gibsun' guitar made in China, or a homemade Fender with a fake decal onnit, the owner of that intellectual property gets NOTHING.

There is a difference.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

This ASCAP and BMI fees the club pays, do not go to the composer of the songs who composed the songs you played at the concert.

Or did you fill in every tune you played?

If not so, then it is just another scam similar to selling false guitars.

[alcohol]

Rudolf, you must a smoked a lot of ganga to be so heavy.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Rudolf, you must a smoked a lot of ganga to be so heavy.

my old pal alcohol,

no, i didn't smoke anything in the last 39 years

just thought why do so many guitarists care to own a guitar made at the original factory, instead of a copy made in Asia, especially considering the circumstances that possibly 99.9% just copying original music, respectively copy original music without ever inventing anything original of their own

[Frets99]

So you do speak english.......

[alcohol]

my old pal alcohol,

no, i didn't smoke anything in the last 39 years

just thought why do so many guitarists care to own a guitar made at the original factory, instead of a copy made in Asia, especially considering the circumstances that possibly 99.9% just copying original music, respectively copy original music without ever inventing anything original of their own

So Rudolph Serkins should have been content with Kawai pianos instead of choosing Steinways, because he wasn't a composer?

But you know that forgeries and copies are universally considered inferior to originals. There's an associative aspect to all art that needs to be considered, even the art of guitar making.


It is clear, however, that in actual practice we do no judge works of art in terms of their intrinsic qualities alone. Recently this fact was brought home forcefully once again when the prized Etruscan sculptures at the Metropolitan Museum of Art were discovered to be forgeries. As physical objects the statures were unaltered, but something had changed, and it is safe to predict that soon the works will be quietly consigned to the basement.
page 55. Music Art and Ideas by Leonard Meyer

http://books.google.com/books?id=m-PTM-ksIv4C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=music+art+and+ideas+associative&source=bl&ots=jXhUPuzQ7Z&sig=Iq-cfpAQyvYAvkhOuplWymApaeE&hl=en&ei=wocySoD8L5SQmAfcn-WXCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA55,M1

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

So Rudolph Serkins should have been content with Kawai pianos instead of choosing Steinways, because he wasn't a composer?



I don't know Rudolf Serkin that good to judge if he deserves to play on a European Flügel, or not

How ever, if he plays Japanese music, the Kawai is certainly the better choice, makes the music emanate more japaneseness, but certainly doesn't sound anything near original as when played by the composer himself

[slight-return]

so does it really matter if your guitar is a counterfeit..... when 99.99% of you folks play fake (unoriginal) music on it?


One, "counterfieting", is a misrepresentation of origin, the other is using material of other-than-performer origin (and the legitimacy of appropriation -- pub domain, licensed, attributed, etc is undefined by it simply being unoriginal)

to make the analogy more accurate, we'd need the player to assume the identity of the actual original composer/performer (not just claim that they, as themselves, composed/originally performed the piece)

[boxorox]

Rudolf... Are you walking the streets in women's clothing again? We're all playing stuff that's been played before. All keys, scales, modes, atonal, 12 tone row has been done. Any combination of words has been done. Any expression of emotion has been done. Any melodic combination of notes has been done. Point being, all music is derivative. That doesn't make it rote copy. If I sing someone else's song, and even use the signature licks from teir arrangement, I am not trying to convince anyone that it's my work, or trying to present it as an original article. I'm just singing a song. Now, I will take credit for my interpretation of the piece, but I will also credit the piece to it's author. "I thank you, Johnny Cash thanks you."
There is a huge difference between using or adapting material, and claiming it as an original creation. Interpretation is not plagarism. Claiming another person's specific work is theft. If you are truly having a problem seeing the difference, you are morally and ethically bankrupt. You will spend more time in court than you do onstage.

[slight-return]

If I sing someone else's song, and even use the signature licks from teir arrangement, I am not trying to convince anyone that it's my work, or trying to present it as an original article.

Here's a funky thing :

counterfeiting is more like saying "I am Johnny Cash" or "Performing Tonight : Johnny Cash" than saying "I wrote this tune" [that Cash actually did]
as counterfeiting exploits the reputation or good will established by the source you are counterfeiting.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Rudolf... Are you walking the streets in women's clothing again? We're all playing stuff that's been played before. All keys, scales, modes, atonal, 12 tone row has been done. Any combination of words has been done. Any expression of emotion has been done. Any melodic combination of notes has been done. Point being, all music is derivative. That doesn't make it rote copy. If I sing someone else's song, and even use the signature licks from teir arrangement, I am not trying to convince anyone that it's my work, or trying to present it as an original article. I'm just singing a song. Now, I will take credit for my interpretation of the piece, but I will also credit the piece to it's author. "I thank you, Johnny Cash thanks you."

There is a huge difference between using or adapting material, and claiming it as an original creation. Interpretation is not plagarism. Claiming another person's specific work is theft. If you are truly having a problem seeing the difference, you are morally and ethically bankrupt. You will spend more time in court than you do onstage.

If you truly believe that everything has been done before, then you didn't had an original idea until now. I know that originality is the one thing which unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. But, you've gotta be original, because if you're like someone else, what do they need you for? Insist upon yourself, be be original.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Here's a funky thing :

counterfeiting is more like saying "I am Johnny Cash" or "Performing Tonight : Johnny Cash" than saying "I wrote this tune" [that Cash actually did]
as counterfeiting exploits the reputation or good will established by the source you are counterfeiting.

:)

[alcohol]

But originality, at this point, in the New Age genre is truly impossible. After all, there's limit in the ways you can have musical instruments, orchestras or synthesizers not make music.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

on the pianoforte alone there are 2 by the power of 88 possibilities to play a simultanous combination of tones

[alcohol]

on the pianoforte alone there are 2 by the power of 88 possibilities to play a simultanous combination of tones

Which does not equal music, just like New Age.

[slight-return]

Here's a funky thing :

counterfeiting is more like saying "I am Johnny Cash" or "Performing Tonight : Johnny Cash" than saying "I wrote this tune" [that Cash actually did]
as counterfeiting exploits the reputation or good will established by the source you are counterfeiting.


:)

I'm a little more like :(
sadly, not only is that a more accurate analogy, apparently, that type of misrepresentation actually happens enough so that, a couple of years ago, John "Bowzer" Bowman pushed for legislation to address that.

[Surrealistic]

Apropros of nothing in particular but I recall Buzz Lightyear saying to Woody (in the first Toy Story movie) "You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity".

Don't know why I thought of that. :lol:

[kneblasch]

Just one question......
why do I need to write new music in order to own an authentic instrument?
If I'm paying good money for an instrument that says Gibson (or whatever) on it, then I expect to have a "no shit" Gibson.....not a counterfeit replica.
If I wanna play friggen Yankee Doodle Dandy on my authentic instrument....thats my business........isnt it?

[speierg]

just thought why do so many guitarists care to own a guitar made at the original factory, instead of a copy made in Asia, especially considering the circumstances that possibly 99.9% just copying original music, respectively copy original music without ever inventing anything original of their own

I don't see the point of your comparison. The HUGE difference between the two scenarios is an intent to deceive. When someone buys a new Fender Strat, under the impression that it is indeed, a real Fender Strat with the appropriate level of craftmanship and quality parts, etc. and instead they receive a fake Strat...well, of course they are going to be ticked. They did not get what they paid for and the seller was attempting to deceive them.

When I go to a club to watch a show by an 80's cover band, I know that what I'm going to see is an 80's cover band. I have no expectation that Toto, U2, The Outfield, REM, Van Halen, Ratt, etc, etc are all going to show up and play one of their original songs each. Also, the band (i.e. the seller) is not trying to deceive me in any way (even though they might dress up in an attempt to look like those bands...lol). Big, big difference.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

the difference is probably that I do not attend the performances of 80ties cover band... however karaoke is fine with me, there even the hostesses are original

[slight-return]

... The HUGE difference between the two scenarios is an intent to deceive...


the difference is probably that I do not attend the performances of 80ties cover band...


hmm, this seems quite odd

The difference between counterfeiting and performance of nonoriginal music is that you do not attend performances of 80ties [sic] cover bands ??

I'm not even sure how to parse that

[bvr775]

"there is no original music."
argument solved

as for copies of guitars i personally dont care..as long as it sounds good ill play it

[Mr.Grumpy]

Many years ago, I purchased a very nice ES-335 dot neck from a reputable "boutique" guitar shop. Although it was very nice, the shop owners insisted it was a fake counterfeit, so they sold it to me for $300 including a nice hardshell case. Fake or not, the guitar played and sounded wonderful. I ended up selling to a friend of mine, and I regret selling it immensely. :facepalm::cry:

To answer the OPs question: Yes it matters. It's about honesty and integrity. The type of music to be played on the instrument - whether "copied" or original is a different topic entirely.

[Chuck Carter]

Yes, only when you advertise on e-bay to try and resell it. I recently posted 2Chinese "Rickenbacker" counterfeits unwittingly bought on tradetangs website (they were supposed to be the genuine articles according to their pictures and written description) on my e-bay account auction just to see what the response woud be - it was an earth moving experience. First of all, I received quiries regarding authenticity, then, info regarding the guitars descrepancies, then threats of a copyright infringement lawsuit from John Hall (Owner of Rickenbacker), and finally, suspension of my e-bay account, all in the same day! if I kept the auction going. Eventually, e-bay would have pulled the auction if I had not cancelled them first.
The spotting features, as I understand it are: The fake 370-12 string guitars have no serial number, no country of mfgr stamped anywehere on them, Gibson style metal covered humbuckers in lieu of the toaster type on the real RIC's, a fatter neck at the joint with the body (the strings are not parallel to the sides of the neck all the way down), the stereo feature is absent, they use a 6-string trapese tailpiece with 2 strings per hole in lieu of the 12 string type and no R cast in, no guitar case, no certificate of autherticity, and a cheap chord that apparently grounds out and hums. The proportions of the body are also off I am told although without a side by side picture of each it is difficult to tell. They play ok and sound good but are no where near the quality of the real deal. Remember, these are made by angry Mongols in the Gobi Desert.
Evidently the words "bait-and-switch" do not translate into Chinese nor do the words "consumer protection". Warning - do not buy guitars from TradeTang- there are enough good guitars out there that can be easily upgraded. I have a Mexican Fender Strat with new Carvin pickups that I'll wager sound every bit as good as anything they have in the high priced spread for a fraction of the cost. You can buy pickups and pickguards with almost any combination and is not difficlut to set up. Heck, I'm technically challenged and I did it with an H-S-S on my 6 string strat and an H-H-H- on my 12 string strat. You can also get them prewired ready to go with anything from the Carvin setup like I got to David Gilmores Lace Sensor set, to Zaks Active EMG's and so on.
Look at Music 123, Musicians Friend, Stewart MacDonald, and Sweetwater fior parts and prices.

[TaylorMan9270]

THIS is all you have to worry about in life? What other people play?

You are obviously single and probably don't get laid too much.

What stores are selling YOUR CD besides the trunk of your car and your Mom's house?

Here's a question, genius. If the only people buying Fender Strats and Gibson LP's were "original" music writers how long do you think they'd be in business.

[Chuck Carter]

Grow up and get a real job.
This has nothing to do with your music but has everything to do with counterfeit guitars passed off by TradeTang as genuine articles. This is done as a warning in hopes of preventing some other struggling musician from getting scammed like I did. You work very hard for your money - long nights, long weekends, with little or no benifits and deserve to receive what you order not some counterfeit instrument made from a piece of driftwood with strings they feel is equal to the real deal. Especially after what they show you in their sales ad to lure you in is the genuine article, then, make a subnstitution without warning.
I play now only as a hobby and got out of music long ago for architecture - only a select few ever make it really big in music - the rest continue to play only as a second job which is fine but struggle none the less doing so.
Obviously reading comprehension is not your strong point or you would have gleaned this from my warning about buying guitars from TradeTang and seller wanglaoj117.

[fishbowlfire]

the difference is probably that I do not attend the performances of 80ties cover band... however karaoke is fine with me, there even the hostesses are original

Karaoke music is all altered in a slight way and the lyrics in a line or two are altered from the original. Why? Because it creates a loophole so that the karaoke producer doesn't get sued and no ASCAP fees have to be paid to the artist who's music and lyrics were ripped off. Funny that's fine with you...
You're obviously quite the thinker.

[Lukenskywalker]

Rudolf, you must a smoked a lot of ganga to be so heavy.

I don't think I've posted on this thread before...hit the wrong button...was supposed to be on Craig Anderton's site...
Manchester VT.?
My family has had a cabin since 1916 on the Roaring Branch, a tributary of the Battenkill ...:thu:

[Lukenskywalker]

I don't think I've posted on this thread before...hit the wrong button...was supposed to be on Craig Anderton's site...
Manchester VT.?
My family has had a cabin since 1916 on the Roaring Branch, a tributary of the Battenkill ...:thu:

p.s. that other site was Craigs 'Sound and Stage'
Rudolf is a pisser over there too...he thinks he's special cuz he's like 'Euro-Uppity' because he has a 'Von' in front of his name..;)

[kevinpaul]

All the big names are copied. You can get a look a like Strat at any place. Costco has many price levels. My Ibanez is a rip off of Gibson. I got a Gibson pick guard and it fit my Ibanez as perfect as the one I lost years ago. You pay for the name. All of it is made in China, but what boat did it get off of?
Kevinpaul.

[Chuck Carter]

Thanks for your comment Kevin but You miss my point. I did not intentionally pay for fakes. I paid for what the seller described both in pictures and written description as American made guitars - not copies or counterfeits. If I had known I was buying a "Copy" then I would have no grounds for complaint. However, this was a clear case of bait and switch deception. TradeTang is a scam - period. If you are content with the quality of a fake, then by all means, be my guest. However, when I actively played backed in the late 60's and had owned both a genuine Rickenbacker 360-12 and Ventures model Mosrite, I know first hand that the quality is much higher than the guitars that I was sent by wanglaoj117 ( a.k.a. Fechang Li).
I just don't want to see anyone else ripped off as I had been. As for where the real RIC's are made, I placed a telephone call to John Hall, Owner of Rickenbacker, and none of his guitars are made in China. Gibson has a factory in Japan and Korea under the Epiphone label - not China. My adfvice, Do not shop at TradeTang unless you are willing to accept counterfeit merchandise.

[Chuck Carter]

Guys, guys, this has absolutely nothing to do with writing music - nada.
It has everything to do with deceptive advertising and quality of the instruments you buy to play your music.
Bait and switch is illegal in this country and when you pay for the quality and craftsmanship of a genuine musical instrument then that is what you should receive, not some counterfeit copy of lesser quality made by angry Mongols in the Gobi Desert.
TradeTang pulled a bait and switch on me showing the real deal in their sellers advertisement then without warning sent counterfeit merchandise in its place after the order had been placed and confirmed in writing - period.
(U.S. Customs never opened the package for inspection or the fakes would have been stopped at the border).
How you play your music and what you choose to use in doing so is your choice of course but do not confuse that with deceptive ads aimed at separating you from your money.

[Surrealistic]

Guys, guys, this has absolutely nothing to do with writing music - nada ...Actually Chuck, the thread isn't about counterfeits as such, so it's you who's taken the thread off topic. I don't blame you - it was (IMHO) a dumb thread anyway and you make valid points about counterfeits but berating others for sticking with the topic isn't justified.

[Chuck Carter]

Just trying to save others from my stupidity. Even after a cursory check of the sellers feedback rating (probably edited by trasdeTang to look good) and written verification "what you see in my pictuer (sp) is what I send", I still got screwed. If I can save just one other person from this scam, then my efforts will be worth it. Bottom line, TradeTang is a scam aimed at deceiving the buyer and I would avoid them like the H1N1 virus. Since they refuse to remove this seller, wanglaoj117, from their site, they are complicit in his actions.

[newmaxnew]

my old pal alcohol,

no, i didn't smoke anything in the last 39 years

just thought why do so many guitarists care to own a guitar made at the original factory, instead of a copy made in Asia, especially considering the circumstances that possibly 99.9% just copying original music, respectively copy original music without ever inventing anything original of their own

I often wonder why guys in many original bands bother with expensive name brand guitars and amps when they can't even write a half way decent song. Who cares what kind of guitar or amp you use when your so called music is unlistenable anyway?

Max

[newmaxnew]

Karaoke music is all altered in a slight way and the lyrics in a line or two are altered from the original. Why? Because it creates a loophole so that the karaoke producer doesn't get sued and no ASCAP fees have to be paid to the artist who's music and lyrics were ripped off. Funny that's fine with you...
You're obviously quite the thinker.

That is totally wrong! Any venue that has Karake is liable for ASCAP and BMI fees. I know this because I talk to venue owners and they tell me thay have to pay the fee (I also used to runa Karaoke show). If that were the case then it would not be possible for some artists to deny the rights of thier material for Karaoke disks. I also own many Karaoke disks and at laest the good companies like sound choice have spot on note for note production. The cheaper disks tend to have a lot of wrong lyric and less than perfect arrangements, not to escape liability but just out of laziness.

Max

[Chuck Carter]

Who cares what guitar you use to MAKE music. I do care if you paid for an American model and received a counterfeit instead - You didn't receive what you paid for - that's deception - doesn't any one get this? It's like telling folks what time it is and they want to know how the watch works.

[marcellis]

He's one of those Swiss who goes to China & buys counterfeit Rolex's.

He's trying to get you to condone his bad behavior.
Don't let him get away with it.

[Chuck Carter]

Trying to warn someone else so they won't get scammed by TradeTang is not bad behavior - it is a public service. These forlks are out to get your hard earned money through out and out deceptive advertising that has absolutely nothing to do with what music you play. Evidently reading comprehension is a problem for some folks that misinterpret this message. Enough said here - time to move on.

[MegaTom]

umm...Chuck-fella, Marcellis wasn't talking to or about you. Neither were half of the other posts you have previously responded to. :)

[BlueStrat]

Well, using the original poster's logic, I guess if Van Gogh would have used nylon fiber brushes instead of sable, his painting would have sucked.

[Roflmao]

My Ibanez is a rip off of Gibson.

Ibanez is a ripoff of everything, IMHO. I've never seen a more unoriginal brand. Sure they alter the designs, and their Edges, Low Pro's, and ZR trems are pretty kick ass, but it seems every one of their designs were done after another company did the exact similiar thing with the exception of the Iceman. I can't seem to pinpoint where they stole that idea.

But their still good guitars, no doubt.
But back on-topic, FWIW, James Hettfield played a white chinese made "Gibson" V back when Mustaine was in Metallica and a year or so after he left. He brought it back out of retirement to record and play their latest album.
But he made original music on it, so i'm just saying.

[Chuck Carter]

There is no condoning bad behavior involved - there is a point at which you try to save someone else from making the same mistake I made. Obviously reading comprehension is not your strong point either and you should do well in the food service or lawn care industry.

[drunkinminer]

In most cases the "fake" guitar is made of of shitty wood (like plywood comes to mind) in one example I've seen. Yeah that's what I want a Playwood guitar. I see now reason to own a fake Fender or Gibson or whatever the case may be just like I see no need for a fake Aston Martin.

[stevieb]

I don't want to wade thru 3 pages of post, but has anyone pointed out, here in this thread, that COUNTERFEIT GEAR IS USUALLY INFERIOR, EVEN JUNK?? Further, it is sold as the real deal, whereas even the best tribute band does not present it's self as the real, original performer- the audience knows, up front, that they are getting a copy.

Oh, and OP, a bar performer does NOT have to list every song he plays for ASCAP or BMI composers to benefit from the performance of their material. The rate is based on general stats like hours played, attendance, etc. (Of course, please correct me if I am wrong...)

[Chuck Carter]

I don't want to wade thru 3 pages of post, but has anyone pointed out, here in this thread, that COUNTERFEIT GEAR IS USUALLY INFERIOR, EVEN JUNK?? Further, it is sold as the real deal, whereas even the best tribute band does not present it's self as the real, original performer- the audience knows, up front, that they are getting a copy.

Oh, and OP, a bar performer does NOT have to list every song he plays for ASCAP or BMI composers to benefit from the performance of their material. The rate is based on general stats like hours played, attendance, etc. (Of course, please correct me if I am wrong...)


You are absolutely correct. I have treid to point out that fact but somewhere along the line people got off on this tangent for music. My aim all along was to warn others about counterfeit guitars so they will not get ripped off like I did by bait and switch artists from China. At last, someone who can read - thank you.

[stevieb]

You are quite welcome, Chuck.

[Roflmao]

I don't want to wade thru 3 pages of post, but has anyone pointed out, here in this thread, that COUNTERFEIT GEAR IS USUALLY INFERIOR, EVEN JUNK?? Further, it is sold as the real deal, whereas even the best tribute band does not present it's self as the real, original performer- the audience knows, up front, that they are getting a copy.



I agree completely, but isn't the point of a Tribute band to pay tribute to the original band? Or even to try and seem as cool as the original band? This seems to be the same reason someone buys a $400 copy of a $3000 guitar that they terribly want because it's kick ass looking and that one brand they love. They can't afford the real deal, so they buy a copy to get people to think "oh shit, he has a Gibson" and to help his little ego. That's exactly why James Hettfield kept his Gibson White V counterfeit for so long, and also the reason he didn't care when he deduced Bolt on neck = Fake As Shit.

Converting this to your analogy on cover bands, the audience knows it's not the actual band, but they go anyway. They want to hear some live [band name] god damn it, but not have to fly to [place of origin] or out of state to get it. So, they settle with a cover band. It might be fun, might sound okay, but might sound like shit. Hell they may even leave out some solo's or try to do their own thing. But they go anyway. They can't get the real thing so they settle with a copy.

I do think counterfiet guitars are evil though. And I don't support them. I just think some of the logic used in this thread is dumb as shit. But some got it right. Like Bluestrat, newmaxnew, and Kevin Paul(a bit). Lololol.

[newmaxnew]

I think that since about 85% of the so called original music bands sound terrible and play worse, that they should not be allowed to own quality intruments. If you can't play quality music why even bother to own quality instruments?

Max

[newmaxnew]

Karaoke music is all altered in a slight way and the lyrics in a line or two are altered from the original. Why? Because it creates a loophole so that the karaoke producer doesn't get sued and no ASCAP fees have to be paid to the artist who's music and lyrics were ripped off. Funny that's fine with you...
You're obviously quite the thinker.

Every venue in my area has has Karaoke must pay ASCAP fees. Good Karaoke disks like the sound choice brand are spot on music and lyrics.

Max

[Roflmao]

I think that since about 85% of the so called original music bands sound terrible and play worse, that they should not be allowed to own quality intruments. If you can't play quality music why even bother to own quality instruments?

Max

Every venue in my area has has Karaoke must pay ASCAP fees. Good Karaoke disks like the sound choice brand are spot on music and lyrics.

Max


Double post is doubled.

You said something similiar on page two, lol.

This thread is pure fail.

[John Watt]

I have some input for you, if you are willing to consider American governmental history.
In pre-electricity times, brothers who owned a distant, western silver mine,
were making copies of silver currency, more of their stuff around than The American Mint.
They were eventually arrested by Washington authorities.
However, they were freed after it was shown that their coins contained a higher silver content,
and were worth more than American Mint output.

I'd rather have a new copy of the Van Gogh I touched, than the faded and cracked one.
Look at all the dark oil paintings inspired by The Vatican's Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel, and others.
Now, modern restoration has shown Michaelangelo used almost comic book color contrasts.
How's that for original art, art influence and art estimation?
It's insurance companies propping up all that stuff now.

If record companies get royalties, after expenses, they divide them between their top artists,
not going through the complete list.

Roflmao! Ibanez was set up by Fender as their first off-shore manufacturer.
But before Fender started selling those guitars, the deal fell apart,
and Ibanez kept going on their own. I congratulate those local South Korean businessmen.
The first Ibanez Roadstar was considered superior to most Stratocaster manufacturing.

drunkinminer! I'd sooner drive a modified old car with good brakes and a fuel efficient engine,
than an all original unsafe at any speed gas guzzler.

newmaxnew! There was a time, in the 50's and 60's, when Fenders, Gibsons and Rickenbackers
were passed around by bands, rarely owned by home amateurs.
I still surprises me to see some kind of Marshall in almost every home around here.

as always, John Watt