Thoughts from an unexperienced teenager concerning this whole band thing

[Giorgi]

Hi,

I wanna do this real short. Is it worthwhile to play gigs in the local scene for someone who wants to make it "big" and not just earn some cash playing bars for the rest of his years?

For me it should be: original songs perfectly rehearsed + good quality EP, ONLY THEN play bars to get to the next level (serious non-club or non-bar venues), so you can play progress to bigger and more serious stuff.

I feel like most people play bars aimlessly. Am I getting this right or is there anything else going on in this band dynamic?

[stevie j]

Playing bars is the best way to tighten up as a band. Most bands play bars for a year or two to get some gigging experience under your belt and very few get anywhere without doing so. Of course, it doesn't have to be limited to bars, friend's parties and other things do the same job. Just don't limit yourself to playing only originals, learning covers helps you develop you own songwriting skills.

The best thing to do is play bars etc, get tight, then record an EP when you know what type of songs go down well.

[ckcondon]

Keep in mind that "Making it big" is the equivalent of winning the lottery or making the roster of a major-league sports team. Only a small percentace of bands/musicians ever reach "stardom".
Go for it, but have a backup plan and learn as much about the business end of things so you don't get screwed out of all your money!

[B Money]

there are a couple of schools of thought on this topic, but I definitely come down on the side of "play covers (and some) originals in bars/clubs for a couple years to develop as a band and allow your original songs to mature.
There is no substitute for playing in front of an audience; I don't care how well rehearsed you are, there is just something different about playing live.
Also, an impartial audience is the best way to garner feedback on your original compositions. They aren't going to blow sunshine up your ass and tell you how great your songs are. You will quickly see what is working and what isn't.
Have you ever noticed that many bands, thier first albums is their best? That's because before they ever recorded any of those songs, they played them live for months or even years. Then when it was time to hit the studio, they had the luxery of cherry-picking thier best 12 songs that had been massaged and tweaked based on how they went over with the audience.
The second album is often a let down, because the band has been on tour and then quickly shuffled back into the studio to write a fresh batch of songs that haven't had time to mature.

[faileddrummer]

Playing bars is the best way to tighten up as a band. Most bands play bars for a year or two to get some gigging experience under your belt and very few get anywhere without doing so. Of course, it doesn't have to be limited to bars, friend's parties and other things do the same job. Just don't limit yourself to playing only originals, learning covers helps you develop you own songwriting skills.

The best thing to do is play bars etc, get tight, then record an EP when you know what type of songs go down well.


People need to remember that cover songs being thrown in the mix was a technique that's been used easily since the days of Elvis. From the magazine 'Loud, Fast, Rules': "Play 30 mins of original, then a great cover. If someone's on the fence about leaving, and hears a GREAT cover to a song they recognize, they'll be more likely to stay."

[Nobody Told Me]

People need to remember that cover songs being thrown in the mix was a technique that's been used easily since the days of Elvis. From the magazine 'Loud, Fast, Rules': "Play 30 mins of original, then a great cover. If someone's on the fence about leaving, and hears a GREAT cover to a song they recognize, they'll be more likely to stay."

That's great if you're on a 4 band bill playing a 45 minute set. Sounds reasonable. If you're a new band in a bar playing a 4 hour cover gig, 30 minutes straight of originals is going to send most of your crowd packin'.

[faileddrummer]

That's great if you're on a 4 band bill playing a 45 minute set. Sounds reasonable. If you're a new band in a bar playing a 4 hour cover gig, 30 minutes straight of originals is going to send most of your crowd packin'.

Well, obviously the advice goes for original bands, seeing as I don't see why you'd tell a cover band to do a cover song every 30 mins. :facepalm: :p

[Nobody Told Me]

Well, obviously the advice goes for original bands, seeing as I don't see why you'd tell a cover band to do a cover song every 30 mins. :facepalm: :p

Guess I misinterpreted your post. I need coffee. :wave:

[BlueStrat]

I don't get why every 15 year old kid with a guitar needs to be a songwriter and be heard. When I was 15, I had not much to say and certainly no ability to say it. Being a serious songwriter never crossed my mind until I was well into my 20s.

My take: Take a few years to learn your instrument, learn how to play in bands, hone your chops and get some life experience to write about. Go out and get your heart broke a few dozen times, get stranded in a strange town, go wonder where your next meal is coming from or how you're going to keep a roof over your head, go blow an entire month's pay in a weekend, make some stupid mistakes and experience some tragedy, go meet the love of your life and go see the sunrise in the desert and the sunset over the ocean. Go visit a foreign country. Then write about those things.

[musicmanmu]

That's probably true for most, but one exception I can think of is Taylor Swift. Whether or not you like country, she is a pretty darn good songwriter, and was writing songs at 16 that obviously spoke to millions of people.

So, I would say don't dash your dreams of being a songwriter - write as many songs as you can - but also keep in mind what everyone else has said...practice your instrument, practice with your band, play in front of people, whether it be originals or covers or both. There really is no substitute for performing live.

[BlueStrat]

That's probably true for most, but one exception I can think of is Taylor Swift. Whether or not you like country, she is a pretty darn good songwriter, and was writing songs at 16 that obviously spoke to millions of people.

So, I would say don't dash your dreams of being a songwriter - write as many songs as you can - but also keep in mind what everyone else has said...practice your instrument, practice with your band, play in front of people, whether it be originals or covers or both. There really is no substitute for performing live.


Well, yes, there are exceptions....most of us aren't them, though....which is why they are exceptions to begin with!

I don't think Taylor Swift would have been on a forum asking how to get started. Real talent gets noticed early.

[slight-return]

I don't get why every 15 year old kid with a guitar needs to be a songwriter and be heard.

Oh, I think probably for the same reason the 20 year old and the 50 year old do -- they think they have something to say.
In some ways, I suspect the 15 year old thinks they have MORE to say (and so the "need" is great) as their personality may take up a larger space in their world. A good example may be the teenage love letter - pages and pages and pages. As we move past that, I believe it's pretty common we'd love to give a piece of advice we know won't be listened to
"hey dude, you know how there's that one last thing you need to say to her so she'll understand...don't (say it)"

[BlueStrat]

Oh, I think probably for the same reason the 20 year old and the 50 year old do -- they think they have something to say.
In some ways, I suspect the 15 year old thinks they have MORE to say (and so the "need" is great) as their personality may take up a larger space in their world. A good example may be the teenage love letter - pages and pages and pages. As we move past that, I believe it's pretty common we'd love to give a piece of advice we know won't be listened to
"hey dude, you know how there's that one last thing you need to say to her so she'll understand...don't (say it)"

I understand that, it's just that the whole 'starting at at 15 as a songwriter' phenomenon is a fairly new development in popular music. Like I said, there are and have always been exceptions, but it seems to have become the norm now.
It used to be called 'putting the cart before the horse.':cop:

;)

[MaxKincaide]

I don't get why every 15 year old kid with a guitar needs to be a songwriter and be heard. When I was 15, I had not much to say and certainly no ability to say it. Being a serious songwriter never crossed my mind until I was well into my 20s.

My take: Take a few years to learn your instrument, learn how to play in bands, hone your chops and get some life experience to write about. Go out and get your heart broke a few dozen times, get stranded in a strange town, go wonder where your next meal is coming from or how you're going to keep a roof over your head, go blow an entire month's pay in a weekend, make some stupid mistakes and experience some tragedy, go meet the love of your life and go see the sunrise in the desert and the sunset over the ocean. Go visit a foreign country. Then write about those things.


Because not everyone is the same. When I was 15, I was writing poetry about why I was not accepted as a part of the "in" crowd, and I actually went back and read some of it not too long ago. It was surprisingly deep for someone with not much life experience.

It's all about what a person has experienced in the amount of years that they have been alive. For me, by the time I was 15, I had lived in 6 different locations, one of which was overseas...and at the current location at 15 years old, most of the people around had never been out of the state.

There are other 15 year olds who have lived through and survived broken homes, deaths in their immediate family, parented a child...any number of things that they could write music about. And, to that end, they don't have to be musically exceptional to be able to write a good song. It all depends on the person you're talking about.

The first part of the second paragraph of your post I 100% agree with...that's what it takes to learn to be in a band. As far as the rest of the paragraph...how can you be sure that just because someone is young as far as years spent on the Earth that they don't already have a wealth of experience to draw from?

I think a better way to phrase that is that songwriting gets better as a person matures. The older a person is, the more likely they are to have had life experiences to write about. But that doesn't mean that they have....I knew of a man that died 5 years ago in a neighboring town that never left the city limits. He was born there, he lived his entire life there, and he died there. He did the same things every day, at roughly the same time every day, and did not wish to venture out to gain worldly experiene. Did he have things to write about? Sure. But not as much experience to draw from as, say, a 19 year old kid who joined the Army and got deployed to Iraq and watched his buddies get injured, maimed and killed.

Everyone is different.

As far as the OP goes...

I agree with what everyone else has said thus far. Playing in bars is a great stepping stone to get further in playing in a band. I do think alot of people get stuck in a circle of playing bars, and eventually all they are ever able to play are bars. The goal should be to use the bars as experience and reference points, and then to aim higher and higher.

[slight-return]

I understand that

Ah, OK I think maybe you meant "don't think it's a good idea" as opposed to "don't get" (I was taking the don't get as literal)


it's just that the whole 'starting at at 15 as a songwriter' phenomenon is a fairly new development in popular music.

It's actually way way old - for much of Western history , the street (popular) musicians were that young (course you were also gonna get married at 14 and die at 35 :D )

[Lee Knight]

Here's my take...

If you want to play music you've written, do it. But play it live. I understand all those saying you should go do covers but I tend to disagree. Strike while you have a muse tapping your shoulder.

Now, the playing live bit... just do it. Nothing will grow your nads like getting in front of people and giving them what you got. You find out instantly what you do have, and what you don't.

So, write the songs that are in your head.
Learn to arrange them with some sort of ingenuity.
Practice them so you can play them like you hear it in your head.
Play to an audience.
Keep playing to that audience until they love you.
Record what both you and the audience love.

[slight-return]

Now, the playing live bit... just do it. Nothing will grow your nads like getting in front of people and giving them what you got.

There certainly are ineresting challenges!
you are 4 measures in...POP, uh oh your B string just went south
Hey, that tune just got counted out about twice as fast as rehearsal
damn, the follow spot guy just got me good and now I'm going to be playing without sheet music for the next 10 measures
or simply.."I'm Blanking dude!"

[bloolight]

There's nothing aimless about playing in bars. They're venues with a stage, an audience, and enough of a profit-margin to pay bands to entertain patrons. Sounds like what a band is supposed to do if you ask me. If you go into bar gigs thinking of it as nothing more than an irritating stepping-stone to "fame", you'll probably end up playing crappy gigs and pissing off your audience. Then you'll never be famous.

[MaxKincaide]

There's nothing aimless about playing in bars. They're venues with a stage, an audience, and enough of a profit-margin to pay bands to entertain patrons. Sounds like what a band is supposed to do if you ask me. If you go into bar gigs thinking of it as nothing more than an irritating stepping-stone to "fame", you'll probably end up playing crappy gigs and pissing off your audience. Then you'll never be famous.

Yes and no. Regardless of your ultimate goal, whether it's simply to make money or to "make it big", your band is going to have to play bars...well, I'm sure there are exceptions, but you get the drift.

I don't intend on playing bars forever, myself. My ultimate goal is to "make it big". Why not, right? But, I realize that playing in bars is a step that would help me to realize that goal. Now, I agree that if I went into a bar with the attitude of being irritated, I'm not going to get anywhere. That's why I don't mind playing them, in the same sense as I don't mind cleaning my house every so often...it's something that has to be done, so why not make the best of it?

I think the moral of the story there would be to enjoy the entire ride, not to just keep your eye only on your ultimate destination.

[Lee Flier]

A lot of good points here, especially from Bluestrat and MaxKincaide.

Here's the thing Giorgi: if you want to "make it big," sooner or later, you are going to have to prove that you can "bring it" live onstage. Nobody is going to sign you to a deal not having seen you live. And you're not going to impress anybody with a live performance if you haven't spent a couple of years playing out regularly and learning how to put on a show and work an audience. No matter how well rehearsed you are, this is not something you can learn in rehearsal.

As well, for an original song to go over well, it not only needs to be well written but needs to have a good arrangement. And often, you don't know how much better you can make the arrangement until you start playing the song out live and see how it goes over. If the audience isn't digging it, you may need to make changes. Or you may decide that a particular song isn't going to make the cut for an EP.

Last but not least, playing out regularly is what makes a band sound like a band, as opposed to "a singer and some dudes backing him up." If you want to stand out from the herd, you have to be able to kick ass on every level - in your songwriting and arrangements, in the studio, in your image and presentation, and onstage. If you don't have the band chemistry that comes from playing live and the experience to deal with many different live situations, you're a n00b. And you will sound like n00bs when it comes down to that important showcase that represents an opportunity to "make it big." These days, labels are not handing out lots of money for development deals. They want bands that already have their act together.

Being in a band is a lot of work, and those who "make it" don't take shortcuts. To expand on what MaxKincaide said, if you don't enjoy and relish every bit of that work, someone else will, and that someone else will be the band that "makes it." So play out whenever you can. Play in bars, at house parties, anyplace that will have you - in addition to working up new material in rehearsal and recording. Fill out your sets with covers until you have enough GOOD originals to fill a set. There's nothing "aimless" about doing this unless you make it that way. Every gig you play and every song you play together (even if it's a cover) makes you that much tighter as a band and helps you learn that much more about arrangement, about pacing a show, building endurance, all the tools you will need to "make it big."

If you're not prepared to do all that, then don't bother. There'll be tons of other people who will.

[Nijyo]

Even if you're an originals band, don't be afraid (especially at your age) to play a bunch of covers. There's very few rock bands that really stand out in modern history that didn't start out with covers.

Writin' songs is fun, too, but with covers of songs you like, you get the benefit of something to strive for, an actual solid example of your aspirations, and a built-in song audience for practicing on-stage. At your age (and mine) you probably think you know more than you do, and think you're better than you actually are (I know I thought so, prolly still do!). Doing covers lets you focus on the playing and performance part, and you can segue it into doing originals.

[stevesherbert]

i think you should play some covers to fill out your set and to give the audience something that they know once in a while. however, i don't think that playing covers makes you a better songwriter. covers are a good way to improve your chops and to get a band started, but to be a better songwriter, you have to write songs.

i don't think playing live is a waste of time. you're right: it sure makes sense to have a demo EP or something to sell/give to the crowd, but you definitely shouldn't be waiting around not playing shows until your demo is finished - get out there and start stoking the fire! make connections with other bands and fans so that when your EP is ready, there will be a good crowd of people out for the 'cd release' show. i don't think you should necessarily judge your songs on how the audience reacts, since half of them probably listen to absolute shite music anyway. usually people have to hear a song 3 or 4 times before they get it. it would be a shame to give up on a great song because people didn't cheer enough at the show. most people at shows are more concerned with getting laid than the arrangements of the band's songs.

don't listen to the 'you're too young to have any real life experience to write about' crowd. people like this rarely have much to say either, and besides, writing music should be about making YOU happy. people love kurt cobain and led zeppelin even though 99% of their lyrics were random meaningless rubbish. be yourself and write about what is important to YOU.

[Hegmatronicon]

i think you should play some covers to fill out your set and to give the audience something that they know once in a while. however, i don't think that playing covers makes you a better songwriter. covers are a good way to improve your chops and to get a band started, but to be a better songwriter, you have to write songs.
i don't think playing live is a waste of time. you're right: it sure makes sense to have a demo EP or something to sell/give to the crowd, but you definitely shouldn't be waiting around not playing shows until your demo is finished - get out there and start stoking the fire! make connections with other bands and fans so that when your EP is ready, there will be a good crowd of people out for the 'cd release' show. i don't think you should necessarily judge your songs on how the audience reacts, since half of them probably listen to absolute shite music anyway. usually people have to hear a song 3 or 4 times before they get it. it would be a shame to give up on a great song because people didn't cheer enough at the show. most people at shows are more concerned with getting laid than the arrangements of the band's songs.

don't listen to the 'you're too young to have any real life experience to write about' crowd. people like this rarely have much to say either, and besides, writing music should be about making YOU happy. people love kurt cobain and led zeppelin even though 99% of their lyrics were random meaningless rubbish. be yourself and write about what is important to YOU.

RE: The bits in bold - i disagree - playing covers (IMO) DOES make you a better songwriter if you pay attention to how the covers song(s) is (are) written. I mean - it's like a tutorial on "how to construct a song". I guess it works more for arrangement/song construction than actual lyric writing. But when i think of "writing a song" i think of lyrics and musical arrangement.

About the second part - true - i wouldnt drop a song after it flops once....but if it flops 3 times - fair bet it's never going to be grade A.

All IMO of course. I've never played originals out to an audience (not at a gig anyways) and i'm in a cover band so I dont pretend to know the original scene.

[mr3lions]

I don't get why every 15 year old kid with a guitar needs to be a songwriter and be heard..

When I was 15 I knew everything. At least I thought I did :facepalm:

[Nijyo]

When I was 15 I knew everything. At least I thought I did :facepalm:

Everyone has something that they want to say, particularly in your teenaged years.

Whether its worth listening to, that's another story (no matter the age!)

[bassred]

Well, yes, there are exceptions....most of us aren't them, though....which is why they are exceptions to begin with!

I don't think Taylor Swift would have been on a forum asking how to get started. Real talent gets noticed early.
Real talent or not, you get Nashville (or LA) producers behind you and working hooks into your tunes, no one can stop that, it's a time-tested machine.

SHe is talented, but most of all, she was lucky. I've seen plenty of uber-talented folks who never caught a break. That's why I play rock and roll. I like what I do, and I have fun!

for a young band playing out, I agree, there is no better experience than getting out there and doing the dang thing. You'll have to have bad nights/bad reception from people. not everyone is going to like your music. learn that NOW.. Write what you like, but you can't force people to enjoy it.

Crowd interactions, stage moves, you can rehearse those, but when you are locked in and the crowd is right there with you, that's my kind of learnin'!

[Giorgi]

Hey guys,

Thanks alot for the input I got all the answers I wanted. However I'm gonna comment a few posts that striked me the most.

I don't get why every 15 year old kid with a guitar needs to be a songwriter and be heard. When I was 15, I had not much to say and certainly no ability to say it. Being a serious songwriter never crossed my mind until I was well into my 20s.

When you're 15 it's not about writing music per se it's about having fun and being popular. Moreso if you're not socially popular in the first place. I know that I wanna do music because a. I can't live without it, I'm having lots of fun playing; b. Because I wanna be popular and accepted and stuff, and rich of course :idea: BTW I'm 19 and I got some chops.

people love kurt cobain and led zeppelin even though 99% of their lyrics were random meaningless rubbish. be yourself and write about what is important to YOU.

Exactly what I think about lyrics, ofc having something to say is good and will eventually come.

Lee Flier thanks for the detailed answer and all others of course :love:

[BlueStrat]

SHe is talented, but most of all, she was lucky. I've seen plenty of uber-talented folks who never caught a break.

Probably the most important factor after having done all one can.

[WinosaurJR]

Just play back-up for a famous act, then. You'll get fame and money, and I'm sure girls'll like you for it.

Not trying to be sarcastic, or rude, just an honest idea judging from your priorities.

[squealie]

I don't intend on playing bars forever, myself. My ultimate goal is to "make it big".

WHY DIDNT WE THINK OF THIS???!!!!


:facepalm:

[MaxKincaide]

WHY DIDNT WE THINK OF THIS???!!!!


:facepalm:

Um, and your point is.....

Yeah.

[squealie]

Um, and your point is.....

Yeah.

Lighten up francis.

I'll try to make my point less indecipherable here:

Most aspiring musicians reach for higher goals, than to just sweat it out in the bars. And to assume (or imply, or infer, or anyfreakinthing) anything else, is insulting.

I wish all the young'uns all the luck and success in the world. If they don't suck. :) I also think they should consider themselves LUCKY if they're one of the few who are able to get on a stage ANYWHERE.

[rhat]

The number one goal of a teen aged band is to take back your freeking turf that young people gave up. Build a band that can take that DJ's money away thats just sitting there for the grabbing. Young bands end up getting screwed by these original music veunes. People there is money for young bands in those school systems, park and rec budgets, and church youth groups. If you want to be a pro... get with the program and go for that money. Its gonna take work and its going to take real musicanship. Its not out of your reach. Pretty well every old geezer in this forum, played their first gigs as high school kids and did get payed real dollars...and didnt get jerked around doing it. They were damb glad to have our bands. Its so frusterating to see you guys get worked over so hard. Young bands have gone from being working bands to being pay for play bands ,,, and DJs have been hauling thousands of dollars out from under your noses.....because you want to MAKE IT BIG> Try really making it small first,, instead of playing rockstar

[MaxKincaide]

Lighten up francis.

I'll try to make my point less indecipherable here:

Most aspiring musicians reach for higher goals, than to just sweat it out in the bars. And to assume (or imply, or infer, or anyfreakinthing) anything else, is insulting.

I wish all the young'uns all the luck and success in the world. If they don't suck. :) I also think they should consider themselves LUCKY if they're one of the few who are able to get on a stage ANYWHERE.

Actually, I'm pretty light these days...thanks though.

I wasn't implying anything...and noone else here who read that post gathered that from what I was saying...

Go back and read it again. I think you may have missed something somewhere. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone...only trying to help out. I pretty much say the same thing in just about all of my posts anyway...try going back and reading some of the other things I've posted about if you have any doubt of where I'm coming from.

Regarding the part of your post I bolded...that's actually part of the problem...that it is easy to get on stage anywhere...as long as you are ok with not getting paid for it. Trust me, I know from experience.

And there are actually musicians that strive to play in bars, and that's ok. If that is their goal, then that's their goal. There's money to be made doing that. I actually know of several people who do not wish to "make it big", but still want to make money playing music, and they enjoy playing bars and clubs for a living. To be honest, it's really not as bad as it may sound, either...at least they're getting paid to do what they love to do.

So, I'm not being condescending to anyone. Not everyone's goals are the same. Not everyone strives to be famous.

[Lee Knight]

You know, this whole thing is interesting. First, you have a 19 year old guy that comes right out and says it...

I want to be a star. Do I need to play in a band, live?

Then we, a mixture of the old and the young, chime in with our personal experiences and prejudices to help enlighten the young whippersnapper. Fair enough, he asked for advice. What's interesting is how we all respond based on what we did.

Who's famous here?

He didn't say he wanted to be the best damn jazz guitarist on the planet. He wants to be a star. So you want to be a rock and roll star...

Then we get a list of how he can achieve that. And bickering ensues cause toes get stepped on cause this topic means a lot to us. Yeah? We were that OP.

Personally, I don't see how the OP will reach his goal by going through the ranks and learning some lame covers and selling some beer. I did learn to play that way and I did reap some success that way... but I always had my eye on the original song. And frankly, I wish I'd have wasted less time in $$$ pursuing groups slinging covers to wasted losers.

Go for what you want OP. You want to write your own tunes that speak to your audience? Do it. And put it out there to find out where you suck. The way to be great is to suck in front of people. And have the balls to do it again and again till you are great.

Don't waste your time selling beer. Find venues that cater to bands that are offering their slant on things via original tunes or unique presentation and don't get sucked into the wasteland of "working musician".

That job title doesn't exist anymore.

[vanlatte]

When I was 15 I knew everything. At least I thought I did :facepalm:

How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live.
- Henry David Thoreau

:lol:

[fenderbender66]

or simply.."I'm Blanking dude!"

LOL. this happened to me in a previous band. I totally blanked on the lead riff of Day Tripper, our next to last song of the gig...like my hands just wouldn't work. the band scene in Back to the Future came to mind. I eventually recovered, but man, so embarassing:facepalm:

[fireax]

Hi There.
Maybe I can help.
My son and his friends are in a band. They all just turned 16.
They started playing covers, as it was a great way for them to come together not only learning to play the song, but also everything else...mixing the sound, how the instruments work...etc.
Since then, they are now writing their own music, and incorporating it into the covers. They post their songs and their info on their myspace page.

http://www.myspace.com/southpawkings

Now...where should you play?
They look for gigs whereever they can play...for their age.
Here in California, 16 year olds can't exactly play bars, but they play county fairs, private parties (lot's of "Sweet 16" parties...Teenage girls like having boys band playing their parties....go figure), and town events.

As far as events go....visit local fairs, and town events, and let the organizer know about you. send them the link to your website. Then, let the people at your school know about your band, and that it's for Hire.
Get a "buzz" going about your band.
Finally....Go to "Battle of the bands" events. That is the perfect place to show off who you are.

[fireax]

OH YEAH....
As far as being a star....
I'll tell you what I tell my son and his friends.
Enjoy this time. Learn about music, and how fun it is to create it, and play it live, but remember...there are hundreds of guys just like you.
So, use the next two years of high school to make some $ at gigs, and plan on going to college for your "real life"

[MaxKincaide]

You know, this whole thing is interesting. First, you have a 19 year old guy that comes right out and says it...

I want to be a star. Do I need to play in a band, live?

Then we, a mixture of the old and the young, chime in with our personal experiences and prejudices to help enlighten the young whippersnapper. Fair enough, he asked for advice. What's interesting is how we all respond based on what we did.

Who's famous here?

He didn't say he wanted to be the best damn jazz guitarist on the planet. He wants to be a star. So you want to be a rock and roll star...

Then we get a list of how he can achieve that. And bickering ensues cause toes get stepped on cause this topic means a lot to us. Yeah? We were that OP.

Personally, I don't see how the OP will reach his goal by going through the ranks and learning some lame covers and selling some beer. I did learn to play that way and I did reap some success that way... but I always had my eye on the original song. And frankly, I wish I'd have wasted less time in $$$ pursuing groups slinging covers to wasted losers.

Go for what you want OP. You want to write your own tunes that speak to your audience? Do it. And put it out there to find out where you suck. The way to be great is to suck in front of people. And have the balls to do it again and again till you are great.

Don't waste your time selling beer. Find venues that cater to bands that are offering their slant on things via original tunes or unique presentation and don't get sucked into the wasteland of "working musician".

That job title doesn't exist anymore.

I agree. But you're still essentially saying what everyone else has said, which is basically "Get out there and play".

The thing is, if you're in an original band, and you want to become famous, where do you start playing if it's not in bars/clubs/local venues? It has to start from somewhere.

If an original band starts playing in bars, and their intentions are to become "rockstars", then they have to keep in mind that there needs to be a point at which they start trying to get into the bigger venues. They start building their popularity by playing in bars/clubs/local venues, and then start branching out from there once the demand to see the band increases to the point that they are sought after from the larger venues.

The problems start happening when the bands either get sidetracked by making or not making money, or they get stuck in a loop of playing the same bars/clubs/venues week after week.

All of it works together...playing in bars, branching out, earning money by playing out, getting the band's name out there...it's all part of the process.

The variable there is being at the right place at the right time to be heard by the right people on the right day.

[fireax]

Oh Yeah.
One more thing.
Music is an art...but it is also a business, and it is HARD.
One of the other father's and I are the roadies, soundguy, stage-prep, and security.
But...
What we expect from the band is that they help with the band load-up, set-up all the equipment. Soundcheck is very important, and they all take it seriously. They know what they can and can not do with the mics, monitors, etc.
They understand stage dynamics, and feedback.
and finally, after the gig, they know they are expected to break-down everything, and load up, and bring it back to the studio.

It's nice is you are a STAR, and you have people do this for you, but the reality is...you do it yourself.

[Lee Knight]

I agree. But you're still essentially saying what everyone else has said, which is basically "Get out there and play".




But I'm not saying the same thing. In retrospect, I regret giving so much time to playing in cover bands. Let me draw a parallel...

I had a fake ID at 17 and was in a house band for a biker bar. I finished High School while playing in the college jazz band and entertaining bikers with rock and roll covers in my nighttime rock band. At 17... in 1976.

Meanwhile, Mr. X was busy writing his songs. I later joined up with him and got an MCA contract with him and played all kind of shows and got on MTV and cheesy teen movies, etc. Playing Mr. X's songs he wrote while I was learning Tush. Mr. X not once played in a cover band. He never played in a cover band. It's not in his DNA. He might whip out an obscure cover for grins, like Cash might play an old gospel tune. But a cover band? No. Robs the soul.

After our 80's high life of being B grade stars, I went back to playing covers. He stuck with his original music and joined other successful national acts. He went on to be a key member in a very influential roots rock band... late 80's into the 90's. Letterman, Carson... constant touring. It was his life and he loved it.

Now he's broke, but he truly got what he wanted in life and continues to perform locally. I don't regret my choice to get out, but I do regret not staying the course for artistic reasons. I still have the art bug and now produce bands locally while working an audio related corporate gig by day.

But my advice is, with the benefit of hindsight, if that's what you want, go directly for it. Don't dick around "learning the ropes" someone else thinks you should learn. There are no rules. It is your music. Don't' let those who don't have your clarity of vision sway you from your path.

This is not a originals vs. covers stupidity pissing match. Cover bands are fine and dandy. I know. But not the place to learn to be yourself, which is what you want if you intend on taking it further than Joe's Place.

[MaxKincaide]

But I'm not saying the same thing. In retrospect, I regret giving so much time to playing in cover bands. Let me draw a parallel...

I had a fake ID at 17 and was in a house band for a biker bar. I finished High School while playing in the college jazz band and entertaining bikers with rock and roll covers. At 17... in 1976.

Meanwhile, Mr. X was busy writing his songs. I later joined up with him and got an MCA contract with him and played all kind of shows and got on MTV and cheesy teen movies, etc. Playing Mr. X's songs he wrote while I was learning Tush. Mr. X not once played in a cover band. He never played in a cover band. It's not in his DNA. He might whip out an obscure cover for grins, like Cash might play an old gospel tune. But a cover band? No. Robs the soul.

After our 80's high life of being B grade stars, I went back to playing covers. He stuck with his original music and joined other successful national acts. He went on to be a key member in a very influential roots rock band... late 80's into the 90's. Letterman, Carson... constant touring. It was his life and he loved it.

Now he's broke, but he truly got what he wanted in life and continues to perform locally. I don't regret my choice to get out, but I do regret not staying the course for artistic reasons. I still have the art bug and now produce bands locally while working an audio related corporate gig by day.

But my advice, with the benefit of my hindsight is, if that's what you want, got directly for it. Don't dick around "learning the ropes someone else thinks you should learn. There are no rules. It is your music. Don't' let those who don't have your clarity of vision sway you from your path.

This is not a originals vs. covers stupidity pissing match. Cover bands are fine and dandy. I know. But not the place to learn to be yourself, which is what you want if you intend on taking it further than Joe's Place.

This is where I get lost. I guess I'm just stuck in the old-school method of thinking.

How is it an original rock band goes directly for the goal of "making it" without playing in local clubs/bars/venues first?

I mean, I guess you could save up a whole bunch of money, record your songs at a professional studio, and then send your songs out as a demo to different labels until they finally give in and give you a shot...except that doesn't work.

Is there some other method of getting out there? I'm actually wanting to do the same thing...play originals in a band and "make it"...and I honestly thought that the process meant that you had to build a local following first, then branch out, and continue branching out until there's nowhere left to branch out. :idk:

[Lee Knight]

This is where I get lost. I guess I'm just stuck in the old-school method of thinking.

How is it an original rock band goes directly for the goal of "making it" without playing in local clubs/bars/venues first?

I mean, I guess you could save up a whole bunch of money, record your songs at a professional studio, and then send your songs out as a demo to different labels until they finally give in and give you a shot...except that doesn't work.

Is there some other method of getting out there? I'm actually wanting to do the same thing...play originals in a band and "make it"...and I honestly thought that the process meant that you had to build a local following first, then branch out, and continue branching out until there's nowhere left to branch out. :idk:


Got it... yeah, of course you get out there and play. Play clubs that showcase bands doing 45-60 minutes of original material. Once again, I've spent too much time in cover bands to dis them. But if your goal is to do your own stuff, go do it. In an original club. Otherwise you'll dilute your sense of self by wondering if Mustang Sally or Brown Eyed Girl is the better choice.

This is why the whole discussion of guys bemoaning free gigs gets to me a little. Unless your intention is to make a living playing covers. Then by all means. Play covers, fight for better conditions, discuss the relative merits of Brown Eyed vs. Mustang... just don't kid yourself into thinking you're moving closer to that dream you used to have...

What are the indie clubs in the nearest city to you? Start attending shows and figure out how you will blow them away by your unique voice and vision.

[Lee Flier]

You know, this whole thing is interesting. First, you have a 19 year old guy that comes right out and says it...

I want to be a star. Do I need to play in a band, live?

Then we, a mixture of the old and the young, chime in with our personal experiences and prejudices to help enlighten the young whippersnapper. Fair enough, he asked for advice. What's interesting is how we all respond based on what we did.

Who's famous here?

Personally, I'm not responding based only on what I did (or do). I know a lot of people who DID "make it" and my response was based on what THEY did. They would all tell our OP here, you can't be a star if you can't play live, and being able to play live effectively involves working for quite some time at honing the skill.

Sure, not every gig you do may be ideal toward that end. And just because you're out playing live and may (or may not) be doing some covers too for awhile, doesn't mean you stop focusing on songwriting. Not at all. But it's like going to college to get a degree - just because your degree is supposed to be in mechanical engineering doesn't mean you aren't also required to take literature classes. In fact playing live is much more closely related to becoming a rockstar than literature is to being a mechanical engineer.

But the bottom line is, to be the best at anything, you usually have to have multiple skills and it's no good taking shortcuts. Being able to put on a show and engage an audience is a key part of becoming a star, and that is a learned skill. It's not something that just happens because you wrote a good song.


Personally, I don't see how the OP will reach his goal by going through the ranks and learning some lame covers and selling some beer. I did learn to play that way and I did reap some success that way... but I always had my eye on the original song. And frankly, I wish I'd have wasted less time in $$$ pursuing groups slinging covers to wasted losers.

Go for what you want OP. You want to write your own tunes that speak to your audience? Do it. And put it out there to find out where you suck. The way to be great is to suck in front of people. And have the balls to do it again and again till you are great.

Don't waste your time selling beer. Find venues that cater to bands that are offering their slant on things via original tunes or unique presentation and don't get sucked into the wasteland of "working musician".


Now, this part I can basically agree with. The advice given to you by somebody who plays in cover bands and knows they're there to sell beer is going to be different from the OP's. Obviously the venues you choose to focus on are going to be different (in most cases) from typical all-nighters in cover bands. But I still maintain that it's your attitude that makes the difference, not what kind of venues you're playing. If you think you're going to be stuck in bars for the rest of your life trying to sell beer, then you already are. If you look at those gigs as learning to be an effective live performer and tightening up your band and making a few bucks along the way to being a stellar original act, then it doesn't matter if you're playing dive bars. I guarantee most if not all of your favorite famous bands did that.

And if and when you feel like you've gotten all you can get out of the dive bar experience, then just quit playing those type of gigs. :idk: I think it's the "either-or" mentality that has you hung up. It's not "either" play in bars "or" focus on songwriting and make an EP. Do both. You don't have to play bars 5 nights a week or anything. :lol: Gig on weekends wherever you can, write and rehearse and record during the week. It ain't rocket science.

[MartinC]

I think the game plan for someone who wants to make it big vs. someone who wants to become a good musician is completely different. And I don't think that playing or not playing bars has all that much to do with it. Since I certainly haven't made it big, I can't offer much advice except to study the paths of those who have. Beyounce, Britanny, Jonas Bros, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Ice T, Blink 182, ZZ top, Led Zep, the Beatles- some played bars, many did not. Some are incredible musicians, some not. What is it that they do have in common? What do you have in common with them?

[MaxKincaide]

It's not "either" play in bars "or" focus on songwriting and make an EP. Do both.

This is what I had in mind. That's why I said before that playing in bars is a means to an end, unless your goal is to play in bars.

Got it... yeah, of course you get out there and play. Play clubs that showcase bands doing 45-60 minutes of original material. Once again, I've spent too much time in cover bands to dis them. But if your goal is to do your own stuff, go do it. In an original club. Otherwise you'll dilute your sense of self by wondering if Mustang Sally or Brown Eyed Girl is the better choice.


I see a little better where you're coming from here. There's different situations that call for different songs to be played, IMO. Playing out on a small local level, I think it's important to incorporate covers into your set. Not to play ALL covers, or even MOSTLY covers, but to supplement your set with things that the crowd will recognize. The more the band plays originals and the more positive response they get to those originals, the more they can phase out the cover tunes to catch the crowd's attention.

On the other hand, like you're saying, there are venues that cater to mostly original acts, and those are the ones that I would target more than the bars...but I don't think the bars should be discounted. The more places you are recognized playing your original material, the better off you are. And you actually can play originals in some bars...as long as you throw in a couple of tunes that the crowd will be able to sing along with.

This is why the whole discussion of guys bemoaning free gigs gets to me a little. Unless your intention is to make a living playing covers. Then by all means. Play covers, fight for better conditions, discuss the relative merits of Brown Eyed vs. Mustang... just don't kid yourself into thinking you're moving closer to that dream you used to have...

I think that the whole cover vs. original issue gets confusing to me because it's a general assumption that cover bands are all that can play in bars. All the original bands that I have been in have been able to play our songs in bars in the area, and a few of them we didn't have to play any covers at all.

On the payment thing, however, it's a sad truth that it takes money to do anything. I just left a band that never got paid to play shows. I can tell you from experience, once the expenses start coming out of your pocket, and you're not doing something to put that money back into your pocket, it becomes very hard to be able to continue to play out.

Getting paid is essential. There is no way around it. Unless the band members are independantly wealthy, no band can afford to play for free until they are "discovered". It just isn't possible. Expenses start to add up over time, and the money to pay for those expenses has to come from somewhere in order to keep the band going. And that goes for ANY band, not just an original act or a cover band.

[MaxKincaide]

I think the game plan for someone who wants to make it big vs. someone who wants to become a good musician is completely different. And I don't think that playing or not playing bars has all that much to do with it. Since I certainly haven't made it big, I can't offer much advice except to study the paths of those who have. Beyounce, Britanny, Jonas Bros, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Ice T, Blink 182, ZZ top, Led Zep, the Beatles- some played bars, many did not. Some are incredible musicians, some not. What is it that they do have in common? What do you have in common with them?

The common denominator for all of those artists seems to be marketability.

They have all written songs that are easily marketable and they have a look that is easily marketable. Now, some of them certainly had help in producing a marketable look and/or song, but I think that comes down to those who can afford it and those who can't.

Take Elton John for example. He is a powerful songwriter as well as being a very well-known musician/performer. He had the ability to make himself marketable without outside assistance.

The Jonas Bros, on the other hand, have someone to help them write their material and tell them what to wear. But they have a natural (ugh, I cannot believe I'm typing this...) "cute" factor that appeals to teenage girls, the same as the Beatles did for the previous generation of teenage girls. If the Jonas brothers were all missing teeth, had misshapen noses, and looked like trailor park trash...I don't think they would get too far.

[Lee Knight]

Lee F... you are wise. I guess my point of view is a bit of a reaction to the mindset of recommending joining a cover band or that somehow you should play covers. I have not seen that do anyone any good really. Unless that's what you want to do.

I'm certainly not saying by joining a cover band you're doomed to rework Journey songs the rest of your career. But...

...there are many examples in my personal experience that say, if you want really hit, stay out of the cover circuit. Not just Mr. X I mentioned earlier.

In our local San Diego scene, from the 80's to the current, there are guys that hit it nationally... and there are guys that don't. The ones that do, by and large are not, nor did they, for the most part, ever play the cover circuit.

Just an observation.

[Micky Z]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I think the basis of the discussion is wrong-headed - that you can earn making it big. I think that's generally false in today's industry. Taylor Swift is actually the correct business model (quotes intentionally omitted) for today's music - look great, have some small amount of talent that you can offer, but most importantly convince the moguls that they can make money using you. If they can market you, they'll add resources to enhance their profits and justify their investment. Luck comes in terms of being in front of the right people (in person, or recorded, or in photo) at the right time.

I say this because there was a group of about 5 girls at an all-girls music festival in Minneapolis recently who got signed to a contract. Their ages ranged from 14-17. I saw them performing in a TV news story. They could play their instruments marginally. But they were Young Teen Girl Rockers, and someone figured they could be marketed. Case closed. I was sick hearing that. Jonas Brothers? I'm sure it was much the same thing.

So, OP, be marketable. Show the suits that they can make big dough off you and that you're willing to "do what it takes" (i.e. do what you're told) to help them "help you" to make it big. They'll love you for it, and you'll go far.

[Lee Knight]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I think the basis of the discussion is wrong-headed - that you can earn making it big...

...So, OP, be marketable. Show the suits that they can make big dough off you and that you're willing to "do what it takes" (i.e. do what you're told) to help them "help you" to make it big. They'll love you for it, and you'll go far.


It is an interesting discussion. You make a great point. But I don't think the reality is that polarized. Taylor Swift and your Twin Cities Grrrl Rockers are concrete examples of your point. Your valid point.. But what about Metal, or Folk, or Indie stuff like The Decemberists. Or Jack White's projects? Or Techno?

There is still a world waiting for new music. It is not what it used to be, it is what it is though. And the Taylor Swifts are not the only ones who will go forward in music.

[Micky Z]

There is still a world waiting for new music. It is not what it used to be, it is what it is though. And the Taylor Swifts are not the only ones who will go forward in music.

At heart I agree with what you're saying. But define "big". I love finding new music by people that are not in the mainstream of industry plans - Jonatha Brooke, Imogen Heap, Bailey Tzuke - but if by "big" the OP means mainstream media success, then I stand by my opinion. Talent gets you noticed, but marketability (including the ability to be "daring" or "shocking" and other descriptions ad naseum) are what gets you on TMZ and the like.

[Lee Knight]

At heart I agree with what you're saying. But define "big". I love finding new music by people that are not in the mainstream of industry plans - Jonatha Brooke, Imogen Heap, Bailey Tzuke - but if by "big" the OP means mainstream media success, then I stand by my opinion. Talent gets you noticed, but marketability (including the ability to be "daring" or "shocking" and other descriptions ad naseum) are what gets you on TMZ and the like.


I hear you. I love Jonatha Brooke by the way.

So really, my answer to the OP should be... run. Run as fast as you can before you are bitten harder than you already are. For your own sake, run lad!!!

But I can't. Cause I used to be like that too. If you really have the desire, it really doesn't matter what anybody says or does to dissuade you. You will not be deterred. So given that, I'm only trying to speak to how I see him having a shot at that dream. I may be way off. Really, I'm trying to assess my mistakes.

And it doesn't sound like Taylor Swift is his target. I may be wrong.

[Micky Z]

I do confess that as I plan my next cover band practices, and bar sets to include the occasional well-worked original, that I still have the hope that some weary label rep who needs another beer hears us and says, "hey, maybe I can market these old farts as The Old Farts that everyone needs to hear." But then again, I sometimes dream that I can fly...

[slight-return]

And it doesn't sound like Taylor Swift is his target. I may be wrong.

Taylor Swift would certinly be my target - but then I hear that voice "Don't Touch the girls Jazzy"

and that voice comes from my wife...so there ya go

[keefsdad]

A lot of good points here, especially from Bluestrat and MaxKincaide.

Here's the thing Giorgi: if you want to "make it big," sooner or later, you are going to have to prove that you can "bring it" live onstage. Nobody is going to sign you to a deal not having seen you live. And you're not going to impress anybody with a live performance if you haven't spent a couple of years playing out regularly and learning how to put on a show and work an audience. No matter how well rehearsed you are, this is not something you can learn in rehearsal.

As well, for an original song to go over well, it not only needs to be well written but needs to have a good arrangement. And often, you don't know how much better you can make the arrangement until you start playing the song out live and see how it goes over. If the audience isn't digging it, you may need to make changes. Or you may decide that a particular song isn't going to make the cut for an EP.

Last but not least, playing out regularly is what makes a band sound like a band, as opposed to "a singer and some dudes backing him up." If you want to stand out from the herd, you have to be able to kick ass on every level - in your songwriting and arrangements, in the studio, in your image and presentation, and onstage. If you don't have the band chemistry that comes from playing live and the experience to deal with many different live situations, you're a n00b. And you will sound like n00bs when it comes down to that important showcase that represents an opportunity to "make it big." These days, labels are not handing out lots of money for development deals. They want bands that already have their act together.

Being in a band is a lot of work, and those who "make it" don't take shortcuts. To expand on what MaxKincaide said, if you don't enjoy and relish every bit of that work, someone else will, and that someone else will be the band that "makes it." So play out whenever you can. Play in bars, at house parties, anyplace that will have you - in addition to working up new material in rehearsal and recording. Fill out your sets with covers until you have enough GOOD originals to fill a set. There's nothing "aimless" about doing this unless you make it that way. Every gig you play and every song you play together (even if it's a cover) makes you that much tighter as a band and helps you learn that much more about arrangement, about pacing a show, building endurance, all the tools you will need to "make it big."

If you're not prepared to do all that, then don't bother. There'll be tons of other people who will.

Very well said.

[Lee Flier]

Lee F... you are wise. I guess my point of view is a bit of a reaction to the mindset of recommending joining a cover band or that somehow you should play covers. I have not seen that do anyone any good really. Unless that's what you want to do.
...
In our local San Diego scene, from the 80's to the current, there are guys that hit it nationally... and there are guys that don't. The ones that do, by and large are not, nor did they, for the most part, ever play the cover circuit.


Yeah... I think the whole cover vs. original schism skews things a lot, and particularly in the L.A. area (and by extension, SD), it always did.

Personally, I always refused to recognize this schism. I read up on the history of all my favorite bands when I was a teen, and the Beatles, Stones, Who, etc. all started off playing what would now be deemed "the cover circuit." We all know the story of the Beatles learning to be a great band by playing 8 hours a night in Hamburg. They were already writing songs by then and incorporating them into their sets. But they also did a lot of "standards." And of course, they always had their eye on bigger things.

In my first pro band, we played a circuit of mostly frat parties and military bases. We did a lot of covers - we had to, to fill out 4 sets a night. But we mixed our originals in too and, I thought, all the playing together made us a better band. I continue to feel that way about my current band. We play mostly original showcase type venues nowadays, but when we started, we played a lot of "cover circuit" type places and we didn't mind playing a lot of covers because we were a new band and we simply didn't have enough strong original material yet.

Nowadays, though, the "cover circuit" is SO ridiculously regimented that there's not much room for this kind of growth experience. If you play covers, you're gonna play "Mustang Sally" and "Brown Eyed Girl" and you're there to sell beer. If you play originals, you play for 45 minutes and you don't get paid. There aren't many bands anymore that are able to straddle the line. So I get what you're saying. Playing the "cover circuit" as we know it today is not likely to be good for an aspiring original band, except maybe as a way to make a few bucks to finance your EP or whatever (and we financed our first CD that way).

But that doesn't mean "don't play live" (and I think we're in agreement about this). It doesn't even mean "don't play covers." Play at house parties if that's what available. You have a lot more freedom there - you can play as long as you want, play originals, play covers that you like and which fit your musical style (i.e., not "Mustang Sally" :D). That's the kind of thing that will help you jell as a band and learn the art of arrangement and "working" an audience.

[BlueStrat]

But I'm not saying the same thing. In retrospect, I regret giving so much time to playing in cover bands. ..That might be so. But I can't help thinking that not ever playing in any cover bands is any better. Playing covers gave me a pretty deep well to draw from stylistically, tonally, lyrically (also reading a LOT of literature helps write good lyrics), and how to construct songs that aren't 10 minute noodle fests or have 4 minute intros.

I can often tell by listening to a lot of DIY original bands whether they've spent any time playing covers-their songs tend to be poorly constructed, a bit aimless in focus, and all sound alike.

Playing covers isn't a magic bullet, but it can benefit an awful lot of guys in a lot of ways. Playing in cover bands for too long is not as problem afflicting most young original guys today.


Nowadays, though, the "cover circuit" is SO ridiculously regimented that there's not much room for this kind of growth experience. If you play covers, you're gonna play "Mustang Sally" and "Brown Eyed Girl"

That's an assumption that I haven't found to be true. We may play those songs on occaision, but we don't have to. We play a lot of covers that no one else around here does. It isn't as regimented as you'd think.

[Lee Flier]

Playing covers isn't a magic bullet, but it can benefit an awful lot of guys in a lot of ways. Playing in cover bands for too long is not as problem afflicting most young original guys today.

Agreed.


That's an assumption that I haven't found to be true. We may play those songs on occaision, but we don't have to. We play a lot of covers that no one else around here does. It isn't as regimented as you'd think.

I think that's somewhat dependent on genre. I could see you being able to do that. Our drummer plays in another band that does something similar - they're kind of a gumbo of mostly blues with a bit of jazz, folk and funk thrown in, and they can play pretty much anything they want as long as it sounds like "their thing." Originals, covers, obscure stuff, well known stuff, it doesn't matter. They put on a great show and have a definite identity. And that is pretty much how my band has approached cover gigs too.

But like I said, there are a limited number of bands that can make that work, a limited number of venues whose audiences will go for that, etc. If there's a cover bar that wants classic rock, you'd better be doing classic rock, and even if you play a lot of songs that no one else plays, you'd better be able to play Skynyrd when someone requests it. That's how it is in a lot of places anymore.

[germs]

If I could weigh in on this...

I think that the collective Lees have some excellent advice, BUT some of it is a bit outdated (no offense). Some of this advice NEVER changes, like keeping a good band and a healthy body, but there are a few new rules to the game.

What do I do to "make it" in the new century?

I wish I had a straight answer for you. This AIN'T med school...or even high school. You don't put in "x" amount of time, do pretty good, and suddenly graduate on to better things. There's no clear cut path to success in this industry. That's what makes it a bit different. You have to be an entrepreneur, an inventor, an investor, a businessman, a fashion designer and an artist all at once.

So let's assume you already have a band together, and you've done some rudimentary recording that came out pretty decent, packaged it, and are ready to start playing some REAL (18/21+) venues.

These days it's as much about online presence as it is physical presence. If you don't have an Electronic Press Kit (EPK), you're automatically at a disadvantage. Most bands use their myspace, simply because the bar has already been set so far as quality goes...but that's not too hard to figure out.

Where YOU need to succeed is in your ability to market yourself. Offer a unique, quality product - or if you can't, at least make sure you're doing it better than everyone else.

You also need to figure out how to build a buzz around your band. Here's a hint: Those of us that have figured it out aren't going to tell you outright. At the end of the day it's still a competition to be the best. And in a field as finicky and fickle as ours, we aren't quite willing to tell you how to knock us off the top. So we'll do our best to point you in the right direction - but you need to figure this out on your own. Sorry.

Essentially what you want to do is to be able to CONSISTENTLY draw in an area. That is - GUARANTEED "x" number of people at every show. That's what will start getting you the attention and help you along the way. How do you do that? Easy and simple - be the best!

Finally, never be satisfied! Keep pushing your boundaries in your area!

A word on covers/originals v. originals only:

Stretching a 35-45 minute set into an hour or two with the help of covers WILL put you in front of more people. It's important that if you choose to do this to not get sucked into the cover circuit. It's easy to do and I've seen it a thousand times. Covers pay better. It's a fact. Some people enjoy it - or at least don't mind doing it, and others can't stand to.

That's for your band to decide. Just make sure that you're aware that by choosing to NOT do it that way, you're maybe losing some merch sales...but whatever. It's your band to do with as you please.

Hopefully that was helpful. These are the guidelines on which I've based my career - now going on 7 years.

Just my .02, YMMV.

[Lee Flier]

germs, I agree with everything you say and there's nothing there that contradicts anything I said. The OP asked whether it was a waste of time to play local gigs as opposed to just recording and "taking it to the next level", and I said in so many words "no, you still need to play live and hone your craft while you're getting your songs together and recording." You seem to agree that building a consistent following at gigs in your area is important.

So I'm not too clear on what's "outdated" about what I said. :confused: I totally agree about the online presence, but the OP didn't ask about that.

[germs]

germs, I agree with everything you say and there's nothing there that contradicts anything I said. The OP asked whether it was a waste of time to play local gig as opposed to just recording and "taking it to the next level", and I said in so many words "no, you still need to play live and hone your craft while you're getting your songs together and recording." You seem to agree that building a consistent following at gigs in your area is important.

So I'm not too clear on what's "outdated" about what I said. :confused: I totally agree about the online presence, but the OP didn't ask about that.

Sorry, perhaps I got sidetracked with the 3 pages of dialogue and flow of conversation? :p (that's sarcasm)

OP - There's no such thing as a free lunch. You got to go out there and pay your dues to play the big events. I know it seems like these bands are coming out of left and right field all the time, but the truth is that most of these guys and gals have played hundreds (if not thousands) of gigs and shows already.

The #1 thing that most labels will look for is the ability to draw a crowd. If you skip the building of a fanbase in your hometown, then how do you expect to draw? Reality Check: No one's gonna come to your show because they saw you play with that other band that one time at a club 80 miles away.

You have to be able to show a record label that you're a functioning business with a desirable product to sell (your music) with customer who are willing to pay for it (your fans). Simple as that.

Okay, dirty secret time. You know all these guys and gals who suddenly pop up as label backed solo artists? Think Pink, Britney...I dunno, someone like Michael Buble...They all had agents. No one walked into a club or opened an unsolicited demo of theirs on a whim.

A lot of these "artists" (and a few rock bands too, not naming names, but they're easy to spot if you know what to look for :)) have paid a lot of money to get where they are today. But no one ever tells you that. All you'll ever hear about is how poor so and so struggled for years with their music before catching a lucky break. You know what that lucky break was? Their agent out in Hollywood probably called in a favor to an A&R or producer. I guess what I'm getting at is that you can always go this route and BUY your way into the business too. If you've got the money and want the life bad enough go for it, but you need to be able to back up the goods. Job placement is no guarantee of job security.

But OP, you're missing so much of the experience by trying to take shortcuts. You need to suffer a bit so that the victories taste all that much sweeter. It's about the journey after all, not the destination.

[Nijyo]

A lot of these "artists" (and a few rock bands too, not naming names, but they're easy to spot if you know what to look for :)) have paid a lot of money to get where they are today. But no one ever tells you that. All you'll ever hear about is how poor so and so struggled for years with their music before catching a lucky break. You know what that lucky break was? Their agent out in Hollywood probably called in a favor to an A&R or producer. I guess what I'm getting at is that you can always go this route and BUY your way into the business too.

You make it sound like the band wrote a big check up front. Don't you think that, most likely, the agent is taking (yet another) cut, assuming the band has any real revenue at all? I don't think there's any unsigned band that has the moolah to get a "real hollywood agent" by paying up front.

[MaxKincaide]

You make it sound like the band wrote a big check up front. Don't you think that, most likely, the agent is taking (yet another) cut, assuming the band has any real revenue at all? I don't think there's any unsigned band that has the moolah to get a "real hollywood agent" by paying up front.

It's not that the band necessarily pays an agent upfront and then gets signed...but agents do cost money, and they honestly do a great deal toward getting an artist signed to a label. Whether the band pays the whole amount at one time as well as giving a percentage of their earnings to the agent, or if they pay the fee over a certain amount of time and give the agent a certain percentage of earnings, the thing is that the agent is going to more than likely require a percentage of earnings, regardless.

A few things about the agent thing, though:

1. The artist has to be on the level that they would need to have an agent to begin with. Otherwise, the artist is just throwing money at someone to promote a poor product. There is a certain level the artist needs to get to in order to need the agent to step in and help out...and if the artist is still playing local and regional shows, that isn't the time to hire one.

2. Hiring an agent doesn't guarantee an artist fame. There are plenty of bands, artists, actors, etc out there who have agents who may have plenty of connections, but that doesn't mean that those connections are necessarily going to help out the artist, band, or actor.

3. It is, however, a good idea to have a manager and/or agent once the artist gets to the level that would make sense to hire one. They can be alot of help...they take care of the business end of the music, while the artist handles the music side of things. It gives the artist the freedom to be more creative and less worried about their career.

[BlueStrat]

You make it sound like the band wrote a big check up front. Don't you think that, most likely, the agent is taking (yet another) cut, assuming the band has any real revenue at all? I don't think there's any unsigned band that has the moolah to get a "real hollywood agent" by paying up front.I didn't get that from his post. I understood him to say that the bands that have gone anywhere invested in themselves and got to a point where they could attract a big dollar agent. And yes, a big dollar agent is a huge asset if you can afford one. But if he's getting you high dollar appearances, likely you can.

This is my beef with so many DIY guys on this forum and elsewhere. They seem to be laboring under the idea that they can make a myspace page, write a few songs, do a home demo on myspace or protools, do their own graphic work, their own photography, and build their own promo kits and then start shopping labels.

Label guys, on the other hand, see promo packs daily handed to them by known agents who pitch the bands to them. These packs have professionally produced CDs, professionally produced video, photography, graphic design and so on. And it still is luck if they get anywhere, but the pro presentation at least gets you heard.

Instead of booking your bands on two week tours playing any and every club that will have you (and that you will likely never play again) for 12 people at a whack, why not invest more heavily in your own area, springing for a decent recording with great songs, a pro produced and printed promo pack, and being able to pack your local and regional clubs before striking out into a larger area? If you have a large and solid following in a 300 mile radius and great promo, you will get the attention of people who see money to be made by getting you to the next level.

[Nijyo]

It's not that the band necessarily pays an agent upfront and then gets signed...but agents do cost money, and they honestly do a great deal toward getting an artist signed to a label. Whether the band pays the whole amount at one time as well as giving a percentage of their earnings to the agent, or if they pay the fee over a certain amount of time and give the agent a certain percentage of earnings, the thing is that the agent is going to more than likely require a percentage of earnings, regardless.

Oh, I agree and understand, I just wanted to make sure that the point was elaborated on, since a first reading of the initial bit made it seem like in order to get an agent, you needed a lump sum up front.

I didn't get that from his post. I understood him to say that the bands that have gone anywhere invested in themselves and got to a point where they could attract a big dollar agent. And yes, a big dollar agent is a huge asset if you can afford one. But if he's getting you high dollar appearances, likely you can.

I knew what he was getting at, but the phrasing made see how some folks coming in cold might get confused. (I do editing of emails and other company-wide stuff as part of my day job, so I tend to notice these things)

I agree with both of you guys' points.

[germs]

You make it sound like the band wrote a big check up front. Don't you think that, most likely, the agent is taking (yet another) cut, assuming the band has any real revenue at all? I don't think there's any unsigned band that has the moolah to get a "real hollywood agent" by paying up front.

It was late and I was tired.

But some of them do. Some of them ACTUALLY pay off (pay to play ain't just for radio, ya know) A&R reps to get into showcases, tours, and you name it, even as independents. It sucks for the rest of us, but it's true.

And you know what? Some of those bands DO actually have the capital to invest in a venture like that. Or more accurately, their parents or grandparents do. Or their trustfunds...point is, there's more than a few rich kids out there on the road who never really had to try. [edit: you know how to spot them? First tour out, $50K of gear on stage, and no idea how to use it! Seen it a hundred times...:rolleyes:]

Moreso, I was insinuating that some of your "favorite rock bands" are nothing more than label fabrications made up of failed artists.

[BlueStrat]

[edit: you know how to spot them? First tour out, $50K of gear on stage, and no idea how to use it! Seen it a hundred times...:rolleyes:]
Back in 2003, we were heavy into the festival scene and we were on our way home from one. We pulled into a freeway rest stop and there was a huge bus motorhome RV thing, one of the 90k kind. Out popped a bunch of guys looking like they were 17-20 years old. They were on tour with their band. One of their dads were driving them around in the family motor home and pulling a shiny new trailer, probably full of brand new gear. We started chatting them up (we were parked right next to them in our band truck) and found out they had only been a band for a few months. One of their dads was a hub beer distributor and used his connections with his customers to get his kid's band a tour for a couple of weeks.

Oh well, they looked like they were having a great time. We were all a bit envious, though, I'll admit.

[germs]

Back in 2003, we were heavy into the festival scene and we were on our way home from one. We pulled into a freeway rest stop and there was a huge bus motorhome RV thing, one of the 90k kind. Out popped a bunch of guys looking like they were 17-20 years old. They were on tour with their band. One of their dads were driving them around in the family motor home and pulling a shiny new trailer, probably full of brand new gear. We started chatting them up (we were parked right next to them in our band truck) and found out they had only been a band for a few months. One of their dads was a hub beer distributor and used his connections with his customers to get his kid's band a tour for a couple of weeks.

Oh well, they looked like they were having a great time. We were all a bit envious, though, I'll admit.

You know, I was asked to join a band like that not too long ago. And I really had to think about it. Paid gigs, life on the road, all that...but no financial backing in the long run. As "seriously" as those kids took music, it was still all fun and games at that point. They weren't really standing to lose anything with the failure of the tour. Mom and Pop were picking up the bill.

For me though, I would have had to walk away from my responsibility for a few weeks and for what? So some rich kid could get his rocks off in a different state? No thanks. There's no point to something like that for me.

Tying it in, there are always a few bands like that doing specific legs of some of the summer tours. I guess it would be a great experience, but some of them actually think that there's a chance of "making it" from that...Truth is, it's just the same as playing in clubs around your hometown. Except that everyone on tour knows why you're there and how you got it. To me, it closes more doors than it opens - but a lot of these guys in the corporate office still greenlight it b/c it's guaranteed revenue and pretty much straight profit.

How's that for dirty underbelly, huh?