ABLETON LIVE 8

[Anderton]

We're doing something a little different with this Pro Review, so let me provide some background.

Ableton was the first company to sign on for a Pro Review, and its success laid the groundwork for the ones that followed. You can still access the Ableton Live 5 Pro Review (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1026718) in the Archived Pro Reviews forum.

Ableton then wanted to do a follow-up when Live 6 came out, and its Pro Review (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1553075) is in the Archives as well. However, at the time, personnel changes within Ableton, combined with the company sort of "turning the corner" from cult software to mainstream program, made it difficult to get manufacturer participation - one of the most important elements for a Pro Review. So, it never really got traction.

I always felt kind of bad that the review never took off, so we're going to cover Live 8 from a somewhat different slant and make up for the unfinished nature of the Live 6 review. If you're not familiar with Live, the core of the program remains very similar to Live 5 and 6, so check out the archived reviews to get a sense of Live's "gestalt." And if you want to know about Live 8's specs, Ableton's web site (http://www.ableton.com/) is loaded with descriptions, videos, and also, you can download the program for free and try it out for yourself.

So, we're not going to "re-invent the wheel" and simply duplicate what happened in previous Pro Reviews, or what's on the Ableton site. Instead, I want to steer this into a more "applications-oriented" direction - for example, Live 8 has a looper, but how would you use it? What do multiple layers of E-Bow guitar going through the looper sound like? Or, there's now a custom controller for Live - Akai's APC40 - and that's a big part of the Live 8 concept as well. And how well does the collaboration module work? Can we actually get some collaborative work going here?

Although the people at Ableton remain pretty busy, we do have a commitment that one of their top people, Dennis DeSantis, will be monitoring this thread to answer questions and offer advice. I've also made it clear that any Ableton people are welcome to join in and offer comments.

As to the structure, we'll pick something that looks interesting, discuss it, then move on to something else. And I'd like to start with the APC40 controller, because at least to me, support for a custom controller is one of the most important things about Live 8.

[orbm1]

I have Ableton Live 8 and I love it.... I am really looking forward to see where this review goes...

Thanks Anderton!!!

:wave:

[Anderton]

When I first started using Live, it made sense intellectually, but I simply couldn't make satisfying music with it. I wasn't alone; a lot of people just can't "wrap their head around" Live, while others take to it immediately.

It took me a while to understand that Live is a musical instrument that just happens to look like a sequencing program. Once I realized that, I also realized that it needed to be played, not just programmed. I hooked up a Peavey PC-1600X controller, and from that day on, I "got" it. I tied the PC-1600's faders to Live's channel faders, and the buttons to Live's solo buttons, and all of a sudden I had an instrument - but instead of "two turntables and a microphone," I had the equivalent of 14 turntables, a guitar, and a microphone. I've done many solo concerts over the years, including several performances at NAMM, using the Live/laptop/PC-1600/PreSonus FireBox combination.

Bottom line: Playing Live with a mouse is like playing guitar with a mouse. Sure, you can use the mouse to hit strings and make them vibrate, but it's no musical instrument. The other analogy I use is that playing Live without a physical controller is like owning a Porsche that you never take out of second gear - sure, it's still a Porsche and the engine still purrs, but you're not even close to taking full advantage of it.

And now, Akai has introduced the APC40 controller (http://www.apc40.com/), designed in conjunction with Ableton and 3.5 years in the making. I've written a review of the APC40 for the Harmony Central Confidential newsletter (http://www.harmony-central.com/Newsletter/), which ships next Wednesday. If you want to see a bunch of pictures and read an in-depth report about it, by all means, subscribe (it's free, and you don't get spammed as a result of signing up).

To summarize, the APC40 is basically a physical version of Live's virtual interface, specifically, Session View. In fact, the entire left side of the APC40 looks like Session View, with the clip and scene launch buttons on top, rows of the Track Activator/Solo-Cue/Record buttons, and faders toward the bottom (there are 8 faders total for the channels, and one master fader). The first attached image shows a close-up of the clip and scene launch buttons, while the second attached image shows a close-up of the faders.

As to the right side...we'll get into that next.

[Anderton]

The APC40's upper right has eight Track Controls. These are continuous rotary encoder knobs that can control eight channel pans, eight Send A controls, eight Send B controls, or eight Send C controls, as selected by the buttons below the knobs. What if you have more than three sends? As far as I can tell, you're stuck with manual operation for those.

Most communication with Live is bi-directional. Note the LED rings around the controls: If you change a virtual knob in Live, the LEDs show the approximate control position. Conversely, if you change a physical knob, the equivalent knob in Live's GUI reflects the change. Buttons work similarly. The one place where bi-directional control doesn't apply is, unfortunately, the most important one: The channel faders, because they aren't motorized. Changing a physical fader is of course reflected in Live's GUI, but changing a virtual fader doesn't move a physical fader.

Given how much motorized faders cost (and add to the complexity, starting with a beefier power supply), I'm not surprised the faders aren't motorized. But this also brings up an interesting point: Different people use Live in very different ways. Some people mostly launch clips and scenes, and have a ton of them. Others load just a few, but do a lot of manipulation with effects and looping. I've even seen people use Live solely as a host for effects for live performance. My use of Live is "fader-intensive," as I have loops going in a Scene just about all the time, and mix them in and out with the faders (as well as solo individual channels for a breakbeat effect, prior to "un-soloing" and having the sound crash back in again.

What I'm getting to is that while I would like to have motorized faders, I'm not sure how many Live users are into "fader-slamming" as much as I am, and would balk at having a dramatic price increase for a feature they might rarely use. The functionality that IS included in the APC40 strikes me as stuff everyone would use. Furthermore, some of the functions might inspire people to tweak things they wouldn't tweak otherwise. For example, in my setup with the PC1600, all that I can control easily is levels and solo. But with the APC40 bringing the pan options out to physical controsl...well, now that's something that's available and easy to tweak.

[Kaux]

can you control faders with one controller and the rest of controls with an apc40? If yes, I guess the problem would be trying to be in the same bank of controls all the time with both controllers right? :)

[Dennis DeSantis]

can you control faders with one controller and the rest of controls with an apc40? If yes, I guess the problem would be trying to be in the same bank of controls all the time with both controllers right? :)

Hi Kaux,

Certainly, you can combine up to six controllers at once in Live. And if you're using one of Live's natively mapped controllers, it's possible that the faders will be automapped out of the box.

Besides the clip launch matrix, the big advantage with the APC is that SO many parameters are pre-mapped - the APC was really designed as a Live controller, not just a controller that happens to have Live mappings.

Best,
Dennis DeSantis
www.ableton.com

[orbm1]

In my case, I have the dilemma that even though my controller (Mackie Universal Control) is mapped for the faders, I am not sure how to set up all the rest of the buttons to tweak the different parameters... there has to be a way, I just do not know how...

BTW, Thanks Dennis for joining us in this forum... WELCOME!!
and Thanks Anderton to start such great Thread....

:wave:

[Dennis DeSantis]

In my case, I have the dilemma that even though my controller (Mackie Universal Control) is mapped for the faders, I am not sure how to set up all the rest of the buttons to tweak the different parameters... there has to be a way, I just do not know how...


Hi orbm1,

The Mackie Control is one of Live's natively-supported control surfaces. So many mappings should simply work as soon as the control surface is connected and configured.

But also, you can custom assign any MIDI control on any MIDI device to almost anything in Live by using MIDI Map Mode (see attached screenshot.) In this mode, everything in Live that can be mapped turns blue. Simply click on the parameter you want, move the hardware control that you want to link to that parameter, and exit MIDI Map Mode.

For more information, see the chapter in the manual called "MIDI and Key Remote Control."

Best,

[Anderton]

+1 to MIDI and Key remote control. Being able to map QWERTY keys to Live functions is incredibly useful - to supplement the PC1600, I usually map scene changes to specific QWERTY keys. But also, if you set up your scenes more or less sequentially, you can use the up/down arrow keys to select a scene, and Enter to launch it.

I'll experiment later on with combining dissimilar controllers with Live 8 and report back on the results.

[Kaux]

Great! How do you assign QWERY keys?

I'll look for it when i download the manual, but in my house i just have 128 Kbps...

[jamesp]

Great! How do you assign QWERY keys?

I'll look for it when i download the manual, but in my house i just have 128 Kbps...

On a PC, Keymap mode opens w/ "Cntrl K". Or you can mouse up to where it says "Key" in the upper right-hand corner. Activating Keymap mode highlights everything that can be assigned to the keyboard. Click on the parameter you want to assign, then hit the QWERTY key you want to assign it to and exit Keymap by clicking on the "Key" button or pressing Cntrl K again. As long as you save the Set, that shortcut is saved.

Some of the keys are pre-assigned. I think the F1-F8 keys are locked to the tracks 1-8s mute buttons. And several of the letter keys are assigned to the computer MIDI keyboard MIDI (see the little keyboard symbol just to the left of the "Key" button. This very cool little feature allows you to trigger MIDI insturment notes and/or beats with your qwerty keyboard. "A"= middle C, W=C# and etc. Z&X are octave shifts!)

The only keys I've got assigned are the numbers 1-8 as track arming buttons, the "/" key runs tap tempo, and "m" turns the metronome on or off.

[Kaux]

On a PC, Keymap mode opens w/ "Cntrl K". Or you can mouse up to where it says "Key" in the upper right-hand corner. Activating Keymap mode highlights everything that can be assigned to the keyboard. Click on the parameter you want to assign, then hit the QWERTY key you want to assign it to and exit Keymap by clicking on the "Key" button or pressing Cntrl K again. As long as you save the Set, that shortcut is saved.

Some of the keys are pre-assigned. I think the F1-F8 keys are locked to the tracks 1-8s mute buttons. And several of the letter keys are assigned to the computer MIDI keyboard MIDI (see the little keyboard symbol just to the left of the "Key" button. This very cool little feature allows you to trigger MIDI insturment notes and/or beats with your qwerty keyboard. "A"= middle C, W=C# and etc. Z&X are octave shifts!)

The only keys I've got assigned are the numbers 1-8 as track arming buttons, the "/" key runs tap tempo, and "m" turns the metronome on or off.

Thanks!

[orbm1]

Hi orbm1,

The Mackie Control is one of Live's natively-supported control surfaces. So many mappings should simply work as soon as the control surface is connected and configured.

But also, you can custom assign any MIDI control on any MIDI device to almost anything in Live by using MIDI Map Mode (see attached screenshot.) In this mode, everything in Live that can be mapped turns blue. Simply click on the parameter you want, move the hardware control that you want to link to that parameter, and exit MIDI Map Mode.

For more information, see the chapter in the manual called "MIDI and Key Remote Control."

Best,


Thanks!!!!

I'll give it a try and I'll let you know!

Take care :wave:

[Anderton]

To provide a definitive answer, I decided to see if I could use a Behringer BCF2000 to control Live 8 channels 1-8, with the APC40 handling channels 9-16.

Well, it took me a couple minutes to figure out the right preferences to use (see the attached image), but once I did that, all was well. Basically, I enabled both controllers and used the Bank Select button to tie the APC40 to channels 9-16. You can see what the APC40 is controlling by the red ring; note how in the screen shot, it starts with channel 9.

I did go into Ableton's MIDI assign function (by clicking on the MIDI button) and made sure that channels 1-8 listened to what the BCF2000 was sending. That probably wouldn't have been necessary, given that the BCF2000 is a supported option in Live, but after tearing down my test setup I remembered that the BCF2000's controller mode was still set to power-up to a Sonar-specific mode, not the "Behringer generic" mode.

Either way, though, no big deal as I found that yes, you can indeed use multiple controllers with Live.

[Dennis DeSantis]

While we're on the topic of MIDI mapping, it's worth mentioning that almost everything in Live can be mapped. In addition to all parameters on devices and on Live's mixer and transport controls, there are even options to map relative navigation of scenes. These mappings use special controls that appear below the scene launch buttons and are only visible when in mapping mode.

See attached screenshot.

From left to right:

- launch the selected scene
- move up one scene
- move down one scene
- scroll through scenes (for use with an encoder)

Best,

[Anderton]

While we're on the topic of MIDI mapping, it's worth mentioning that almost everything in Live can be mapped. In addition to all parameters on devices and on Live's mixer and transport controls, there are even options to map relative navigation of scenes. These mappings use special controls that appear below the scene launch buttons and are only visible when in mapping mode.

See attached screenshot.

From left to right:

- launch the selected scene
- move up one scene
- move down one scene
- scroll through scenes (for use with an encoder)

Best,

That's a great tip, Dennis! I'll have to check it out instead of always mapping QWERTY keyboard keystrokes to scene launches...although I guess with the APC40 that's a thing of the past, anyway!

[Anderton]

Okay...I don't want to dwell on the controller thing TOO much, because there's a lot more to cover. But I really felt this was a good place to start, just because 1) Live is at its best with a live performance controller, and 2) the APC40 just plain rocks.

Besides, the APC40 review I did for the Harmony Central Confidential newsletter is now published. Of course you're all intelligent people so I'm sure you've already subscribed (http://www.harmony-central.com/Newsletter/), but if not, click here for the full review (http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/reviews/akai_apc40/), including lots of pretty pictures :)

[Kaux]

Okay...I don't want to dwell on the controller thing TOO much, because there's a lot more to cover. But I really felt this was a good place to start, just because 1) Live is at its best with a live performance controller, and 2) the APC40 just plain rocks.

Besides, the APC40 review I did for the Harmony Central Confidential newsletter is now published. Of course you're all intelligent people so I'm sure you've already subscribed (http://www.harmony-central.com/Newsletter/), but if not, click here for the full review (http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/reviews/akai_apc40/), including lots of pretty pictures :)

When i saw the APC40 announced i thought it would be much more expensive than it really is...

$399 is not "a little", but i certainly think its a bargain when you consider the door this controller opens to you and your music, isnt it?

[Anderton]

When i saw the APC40 announced i thought it would be much more expensive than it really is...

$399 is not "a little", but i certainly think its a bargain when you consider the open this controller opens to you and your music, isnt it?

I agree, especially because I think the build quality is definitely above average.

I can't emphasize enough that it really feels like there was serious thought put into this controller - it wasn't just a "Hey, let's throw some parts in a box and sell it to Ableton fans" type of project. The people who put it together are clearly Live aficionados.

[orbm1]

I agree, especially because I think the build quality is definitely above average.

I can't emphasize enough that it really feels like there was serious thought put into this controller - it wasn't just a "Hey, let's throw some parts in a box and sell it to Ableton fans" type of project. The people who put it together are clearly Live aficionados.

You are making me regret not buying the APC40, I was after that one, but decided to buy the Mackie Universal Control (previous version) instead...

OH WELL!!!

(btw, I am a Full Live User - it is my main DAW)

Thanks!

[Anderton]

The Mackie Universal Control ain't too shabby, either, and Live does support it as a controller...as do many other programs. Besides, you get motorized faders, so don't feel too bad. After you make it big :), you can buy an APC40 and use it for 8 channels, and the Mackie for another eight.

[thomas faulds]

I'm very impressed. I think the APC40 is a smash hit! Outstanding build quality and elegant design.

At the last Chicago Ableton User Group, the question came up:

What if you want to map the pan controls of the APC from the default to functions such as tempo or chain select? From what I can tell, to do this we must disengage the apc40 control surface template. And then midi-map-mode assign the controller settings. But then, the lights on the APC are mute, which is no fun.

Any ideas for a work around on this?

Dennis, your abletoninc and cdm youtube videos are a revelation! Nice to see you on here. Come to Chicago!

-Tommy

[Lord Toranaga]

tell about groups in live 8.
I have been a live user since version 4.
I am on 7 now, and I have decided to wait to upgrade.
The groups are the main feature I am interested in.

[MarkMosher]

First let me say the Pro Review concept is a very cool idea and this is my first time posting on Harmony Central.

It took me a while to understand that Live is a musical instrument that just happens to look like a sequencing program. Once I realized that, I also realized that it needed to be played, not just programmed.
....
And now, Akai has introduced the APC40 controller (http://www.apc40.com/), designed in conjunction with Ableton and 3.5 years in the making.

Very well put and I couldn't agree more. I started with Live 3 and the "software as an instrument" light bulb came on for me with version 6. Now Live is my primary instrument and DAW. I'm an Operator and Sampler fan and upgraded to Suite when I went from 7 to 8. I also use Live to host a wide variety of VSTs.

I've been using a Novation Remote SL and M-Audio trigger finger to "play" live and do sequencing on-the-fly in session view for some time. To reduce mousing I started using a Wacom tablet (and I'm happy to report Live 8.0.2 added improved tablet support (http://bit.ly/l2Dmu)).

For me the APC40 is a game changer - especially when used in conjunction with my other controllers.

Regarding the Live 8 upgrade, there has been a lot of coverage in the magazines and on blogs about the "big" features included in Live 8 - but as time goes on I'm really appreciating the little changes and improvements in functionality and workflow.

For example, I just posted a step-by-step video tutorial describing Ableton Live 8's new custom parameter mapping methodology. The video illustrates how to map select parameters from VST plug-ins into devices and then control these parameters via the Novation Remote SL and the new Akai APC40. The video also discusses how to add and access more than 8 parameters. Lastly, the video covers use of instrument racks and macro controls to map parameters from multiple devices to an 8 knob group.

http://www.markmoshermusic.com/webimages/modulate_this_apc40_controllerism.jpg (http://bit.ly/uRAmC)
Click here to watch the video on Modulate This (http://bit.ly/uRAmC).

I'm also quite excited about the upcoming Max 4 Live (http://bit.ly/MOqtV) and the ability to take Live's real-time workflow into the realm of custom device creation.

Live 8 + the APC40 + Max 4 Live = an incredible year for Live users!

Mark Mosher
http://www.twitter.com/markmosher
http://www.markmoshermusic.com
http://www.modulatethis.com

[Dennis DeSantis]

What if you want to map the pan controls of the APC from the default to functions such as tempo or chain select? From what I can tell, to do this we must disengage the apc40 control surface template. And then midi-map-mode assign the controller settings. But then, the lights on the APC are mute, which is no fun.

Actually it's very easy to override the APC's automatic mappings with custom ones - and you don't lose the lights or the bi-directional feedback.

To do this, simply enter MIDI Map Mode, touch the parameter to map, then touch the control on the APC. It isn't necessary to disengage the controller template first. All of the other automatic mappings are left alone, and co-exist with the manually mapped ones.

Best,

[Anderton]

Thanks Dennis, I was just about to test that out myself and give a response...but you saved me some time, so now I can check out the new guitar-related stuff instead!!!

[Dennis DeSantis]

tell about groups in live 8.
I have been a live user since version 4.
I am on 7 now, and I have decided to wait to upgrade.
The groups are the main feature I am interested in.

Live 8's Group Tracks are quite simple, but very powerful.

To create a group, simply select multiple clip tracks (any combination of audio and/or MIDI tracks works) and combine them to a group using a key command or the Group Tracks command in the Edit menu.

The new Group Track is essentially just an audio track that doesn't play clips, but rather sums the audio output of the contained tracks. The Group Track itself can contain any number of audio effects just like a normal track, so you can easily create submix effects routings using groups.

Group Tracks in both Session and Arrangement views can be folded or unfolded to hide or show the contained tracks. You can use a Group Track as a simple folder track by setting the contained track's routings back to the Master (instead of to "Group," which they change to by default when creating the Group.)

Although Group Tracks don't contain clips, in the Session View they do contain slots with play/stop buttons. This allows you to launch/stop all of the contained clips on the currently selected scene.

Once a Group is created, you can drag tracks into or out of it.

Best,

[Anderton]

Live 8 has a new effect that seems clearly designed for guitarists -- Overdrive. The attached image shows the Overdrive module toward the left.

The filter is very much like the filter in the Filter Delay, and the filter user interface works the same way. But here we have Drive and Tone controls, along with Dynamics and Dry/Wet.

I liked Dynamics best around the halfway point--it gives a solid, chunky sound. The first audio example is the sound produced by the controls in the attached image. Note the 8-band "EQ Eight" at the end of the signal processing chain; the more I get into using amp sims and processors, the more I'm into "mastering" the output with EQ. (Just for background - when mastering, for me sophisticated EQ is the most important component. Besides, with amp sims, dynamics control is usually taken care of somewhere else within the signal chain.)

The second audio example uses the same basic overdrive settings as the first example, but with less highs and a bit of a midrange scoop.

This effect is actually pretty cool for distortion, and of course, with the whole rack concept you can throw in compression, chorusing, reverb, and the like in series or parallel or whatever. However, in this example, I wanted to show as "unadorned" an example as possible so you'd get a good idea of at least one type of distortion sound.

Bonus: The audio examples are cut as loops, so go ahead and use them in your Live projects if you want :)

[Anderton]

Oh - I probably should have mentioned that the guitar is a Gibson Dark Fire, using only the magnetic pickups and the "Rock" Chameleon tone.

[orbm1]

Oh - I probably should have mentioned that the guitar is a Gibson Dark Fire, using only the magnetic pickups and the "Rock" Chameleon tone.

are you saying, or bragging??? :cop::cop:

Just kidding.... :lol:

but, a little bit off topic but how do you feel the guitar?, and also... I heard that you can create "sounds" with live and save them in that guitar??? or did I misunderstood???

Thanks!

[Anderton]

but, a little bit off topic but how do you feel about the guitar?

I LOVE IT. I'm not selling my PRS or my Tele, but damn, Dark Fire is amazing. The hex pickup, piezo out, magnetic out, automatic tuning, Chameleon Tones...it's an electronic guitarist's delight, but it's not a "freak" guitar. In some ways it's very traditional, it just does a lot more than other axes.

I heard that you can create "sounds" with live and save them in that guitar??? or did I misunderstood???

Not that I know of...but I use Live as a host for hex guitar presets, and save them as Live projects.

Okay, enough detour :)

[Kaux]

Hi craig, great review so far, as always.

At some point, i would like to know or take about if you consider live to be a genre specific daw, like those loops genres and so on, or if you think that live is just another daw for any kind of music.

IF you do consider live as genre specific, how do you live integrated with someone using pro tools, sonar, o any other daw?

[Anderton]

I'll take a brief detour here and answer your question.

As stated earlier, I consider Live to be a musical instrument disguised as a DAW. However, that is a personal take based on how I use it. The truth is there are many, many ways to use Live. I'm always amazed when I look over someone's shoulder and see how they use the program: You'd almost think it was a different program each time.

I saw one guy who used Live and never used more than one scene. He dragged loops in and out of the one scene doing DJ mixes. On the other hand I use a zillion scenes to do much the same thing. Some people use Live the way others would use something like Traktor, others use it like a straight-ahead DAW, sticking mostly to the arrangement view.

Some Mac users got into Live as "Acid for the Mac" in the days before Boot Camp. Others started using Live in addition to a DAW like, say, Pro Tools, but over time Live took over and became their DAW of choice.

Live has gotten to the point where you can pretty much use it however you want. I gigged with a guy in Europe who used Live as a host for signal processors on stage - he never recorded anything or even used loops. And I saw George Lewis using Live with two laptops, doing mostly musique concrete-type stuff.

As to integration with other hosts, Pro Tools, Sonar, DP, et al don't have anything like Session View, but they do have other attributes (don't try to do notation in Live - you won't find it!). However, Live has the unusual ability to ReWire as either a host OR client. So, there's nothing to stop you from, say, using Session View in Live to develop a song, then ReWire it into a host either to run Live concurrently, or for that matter, record the Session View tracks into the host.

One last thought: Just because Live excels at doing some things doesn't diminish the other things it can do. It's like a sports car; yes, you can take curves on the Amalfi drive at 120km :) But you can also use it to drive to the supermarket, and it will bring back groceries just as well as a sedan that was designed mainly for going to the supermarket and not take curves real fast.

Furthermore, just because Live is a brilliant program doesn't mean other programs aren't brilliant in their own ways. That's one reason why I continue to use different programs for different applications.

[Kaux]

I'll take a brief detour here and answer your question.

And I saw George Lewis using Live with two laptops, doing mostly musique concrete-type stuff.



Awesome!

Check your PMs :wave:

[Anderton]

This is sort of half-effect, half-application as it follows the function of classic loopers - think Lexicon JamMan, or if you really want to step back into history, DeltaLab's Echotron. Its tempo can sync to the program project, or can analyze your playing and sync to that (no surprise, really - after all, this IS Live).

For my "how easy is this to figure out" test, I just jumped in to see if I could get it to work. So I loaded up a drum loop for reference in one track, created another track for guitar and inserted the Looper. Then I set the Record parameter to four bars (you can choose from 1-8, 12, or 16 bars, as well as "variable"). Referring to the attached image, the + sign next to the record field means that the looper will overdub what's played on subsequent passes. You can also choose > (play), which means it will record for the desired number of beats, then play back.

Incidentally, the orange rectangles toward the top indicate the "step" the looper is on. This makes it very easy to see exactly where you are in the loop as they continue their march from left to right (unless you're in reverse mode, when they march from right to left - we'll get into reverse mode shortly).

So far, so good. Note the transport bar: It allows you to stop overdubbing and play back (of course, you can continue playing, it just won't be recorded), as well as resume overdubbing. There's a good reason to use the overdub/playback buttons liberally: You can undo whatever was recorded since the last time you clicked on overdub (as well as redo if you change your mind). So for live use, you might want to just keep overdubbing until you either run out of patience or good taste. But if you're using Loop to generate an actual file (more on this later), you can do a part then hit play when you're satisfied with it, and click on overdub when you want to record another part. If the part doesn't work out, no big deal - just hit undo, and try again. Otherwise, click on Play to set another, uh, "system restore point" if you want to undo your next overdub.

Once I had a loop I liked, I experimented with some of the other controls. Reverse does exactly what you hoped - it reverses playback, which is perfect for your Jimi Hendrix tribute tune (always a crowd-pleaser). But wait! There's more!, as they say on the late-night TV commercials. While in reversed mode, if you overdub, Looper will record it. But then if you uncheck reverse, what you recorded while in reversed mode will be reversed. For example, suppose while non-reversed, you hit a power chord at the beginning of a four-measure loop and let it decay. Then you click on reverse, and now your power chord starts off from nothing and increases in level over four measures. Now play a lead line on top of it; it will play back normally. But if you disable reverse, your original power chord will play back normally, but your lead line will now be reversed. So the bottom line is you can switch back and forth between reversed and forward parts at will. I like this, and I'll record an audio example at some point before we're done with the Looper.

[orbm1]

Looks very powerful, but I still do not get the full hang of it... And it is maybe because I have never worked with loopers before... Looking forward to see what you can achieve with the looper!!!

[Anderton]

Looks very powerful, but I still do not get the full hang of it... And it is maybe because I have never worked with loopers before... Looking forward to see what you can achieve with the looper!!!

If you're familiar with "Frippertronics," as it was called, then you'll know one thing looping is good for - long, ambient textures that evolve over time but repeat. For example, you can do a loop of a long sustained note, then build up a chord over a few passes...then turn off overdubbing, and play a lead over that (with lots of echo :)).

It's also fun for layering rhythm parts with guitar, not that I mean to imply it's only for guitarists...it's just that guitarists have embraced this kind of looping more than other musicians. I seem to vaguely remember a sax player who did really cool looping things, building up chords and playing solos over it...can't remember who it was, though.

[Kaux]

Hi craig.

I found in a video that APC40´s faders take Live´s faders past unity gain at the top position. I see lots of potential for some samples to clip in that...

Do you think that would be a problem? Is there a way to program the APC40´s to be "unity gain" at their top position?

[Anderton]

Dennis could probably confirm this, but I believe that the way Live's audio engine works, it's possible for individual channels to go above zero without problems because there's sufficient headroom. Where you would run into problems would be if the signals went above zero at the master, because that's where the program meets the audio interface - which will always have a definite headroom limitation.

To me, being able to go above zero is not a problem, in fact I see it as an advantage as long as the master keeps the output level under control. I tend to run Live conservatively, with the channel faders not going above zero. But every now and then, I want to give some extra "kick" to a track and that's when it's nice to have a little room left over to do that.

Now it's time for me to get back to working with the looper...we're not done with it yet!

[Anderton]

One of the best things about Pro Reviews is being able to include audio examples so you can hear what I'm talking about. Well, it's time for an audio example of just one way to use the looper: To create a repeating background 8-bar phrase against which other loops can play.

The attached image shows the setup I used to create the looped track. The guitar is a Gibson Dark Fire, and I used an E-Bow on a several of the looper overdubs. The Delay adds those nice spacey echoes you'll hear.

Anyway, I did multiple tracks, starting off with a sustained E-Bow tonic. After getting that the way I wanted, I set the Looper to Play mode and listened. I went back into overdub mode, and added a sustained E-Bow fifth.

I again went back into play, and tried a sort of lead line. It sounded okay, so I went back to overdub mode. But then I didn't like it, so I hit undo and got back to where I was before doing the last overdub (i.e., the last time it was in play mode). I instead went back into play, and practiced some other ideas. I liked adding a little rhythmic plucked figure, so that was next.

After every good overdub, I hit play so I could undo my next recording if needed without erasing the "good stuff." Eventually I ended up getting a couple of long E-Bow bent notes played high up on the neck.

At this point, the Looper was now a loop in Session View. I rummaged around my hard drive for a drum track ("Bubble," from Discrete Drums) and added that after the first complete repeat of the loop. Halfway though, I added a "Beat Filter" loop from my AdrenaLinn Guitars sample CD that runs until the whole thing fades out.

Check it out by clicking on the attached MP3 file. I think you're really gonna like it...

[orbm1]

Craig,

That was very cool!!!

I have a question, did you record the loop first and then you added the drum track, if so, how did you manage to keep/match the beat?? or did you use Live's metronome for the loop?

Thanks!

[Anderton]

Craig,

That was very cool!!!

I agree! It sure was fun to do, too. :)

I have a question, did you record the loop first and then you added the drum track, if so, how did you manage to keep/match the beat?? or did you use Live's metronome for the loop?

That is a great question, because you've touched on one of the fundamental reasons why Live is so cool.

I recorded the Looper material at what seemed like a good tempo, and turned on the metronome for reference. Once the loop was done, it works just like any other loop in Live - it sits in a slot in Session View, and you can have it repeat.

At that point I thought it would make a more interesting musical example if I added drums. I found a good loop but it wasn't at the right tempo, but Live doesn't care - it automatically stretches the tempo to fit the existing project tempo.

Of course, Live is not the only program to do this, nor was it the first; that was Sony's Acid. However, Live makes the process very transparent, and Live 8 makes it easier to adjust the loop stretching to keep artifacts to a minimum.

The AdrenaLinn Guitars loop I added at the end was also not at the original project tempo, and again, Live made it fit. It's a beautiful thing :thu:

One thing I will say is that Live wasn't as good as Acid or Sonar in terms of letting you tweak the looping. On the one hand this was cool - just bring in a file, and Live would "make it so." Both Acid and Sonar convert audio into a format known as "Acidized." If the stretching wasn't optimum, you could edit the stretching in both programs and optimize the results. However, L8 has new stretch editing options I'll get into, and also, a few versions ago Live introduced the "complex warp" algorithm with is nothing short of miraculous - you can bring in really long files, even tens of minutes, and Live will adjust it to fit your project. I suspect some sort of sorcery is involved.

[jamesp]

Here's a fun video demonstrating using the Looper to improvise arrangements. It also shows the use of Keymap mode to arm tracks and launch clips and quite a bit more. Motherbrain's text notes are great to follow on this vid.

KlhkN9EP8wA
:love: LG owes!

I'm assuming that MIDI instruments are in separate tracks, all armed via Keymap assignments. And I'm pretty sure he's using an instance of Looper in each track, again with "the big button" armed by Keymap.

This is somewhat how I use Live, (tho' I'm nowhere near Marc's level.) Four Audio tracks for recording and five MIDI tracks for instruments (drums, bass, rhodes, B3 and synth.) Since Live 8 came out, what little bit of Looper play I've done, I've done by setting my controller's damper pedal to run the big button. MIDImap mode makes temp assignments easy to do.

Edit to add: Now that I think about it, it's possible that Marc might not be using Looper effect at all. He could be looping the clips. At any rate, he's very good and Live rocks my socks. ;)

[scud133]

i love this place

and i love Live

:love:

[orbm1]

THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!

great work and use of the looper,

shows the power of Live!

Thanks!

[Anderton]

Before moving on to the next section, let's go over some of the remaining Looper features.

It's worth mentioning that if Live's Transport is running, it takes priority over the Looper transport, and what you've done with the Looper acts just like a clip, including launch quantization and the like. And, although we've touched on this, the Looper's big transport button changes functions depending on whether material has been recorded and the Looper's playback state. The most important aspects is that you can toggle back and forth between overdub and playback modes, which is why when recording the audio example, it was a simple matter to practice while in playback mode, overdub once I figured out the part, undo a part if I didn't like it, return to play easily, etc.

Clicking on the +2 button doubles the buffer's length, duplicating any existing material (e.g., if you double a two-measure loop, the first two measures will also become the last two measures). Clicking on the :2 button does the reverse: It cuts the buffer length in half, and deletes any material in the second half. Caution: This doesn't seem to be undoable, so think twice before you decide to cut the buffer length!

The Speed button changes speed/pitch. This works like transposing a sample, as the loop length shortens if you speed it up, and lengthens if you slow it down. I don't find this function all that useful because I generally want the speed to match the project tempo, but there are two exceptions: The up and down arrow buttons jump the speed/pitch up and down an octave, so it stays in time with your project.

We already talked about the Reverse button, but I have to mention it again because it's soooo cool to be able to reverse individual layers.

Feedback is used for the recording process, and determines the level of previously-recorded material when doing overdubs. I usually leave this at 100%, which means that previously-recorded material is at full volume on subsequent overdubs. Lesser settings reduce the level. This is useful if, for example, you're building up layers with tons of echo. You might want to lay down some very basic parts at the beginning, and more complex parts later on, but not want the early parts to compete in terms of level with the later ones. Reducing the feedback amount makes that possible.

The Input/Output button basically determines the conditions under which you hear the input signal - for example, you can hear it while overdub or recording, but mute it during playback.

you can insert Looper into another track, process Looper through that track, then feed the track output back into Looper. So, in the audio example I did earlier, for some of the parts with the long delays I could just as easily have used this feature rather than adding the Simple Delay after the Looper.

The rest of the buttons and controls deal more with "housekeeping," like whether Looper follows the song tempo, or sets it...that sort of thing. But one feature that's definitely worthy of note is the Drag me! button. This lets you drag the looped audio into wherever you want in the browser, like the Clips folder in the library or whatever. This dragged file is simply audio, and when you bring it into Live, no associated Looper appears. Note: You can't drag directly to, say, the Desktop or a folder on a hard drive; you have to use Live's browser and drag into the Desktop or folder that shows up in the browser.

One last thing: Yes, those buttons and such are MIDI-controllable - so if you want to tie the play/overdub multi-function button into a footswitch, go for it!

That's probably enough about the Looper, so unless anyone has questions or Dennis wants to point out something really important I've overlooked, let's proceeed to the Multiband Dynamics effect. In case you're not impressed by that topic, just wait - those who saw my Power App Alley article in the July issue of EQ Magazine (http://www.eqmag.com), where I described how to use the Multiband Dynamics to "undo" the effects of overcompression on a master recording, already know it does more than you might think...

[lfbray]

The new vocoder is also very nice :)

[Anderton]

Indeed it is - and that's what I planned to cover after the Multiband Dynamics!

[Anderton]

Does Live 8 work with Vista-64 bit?

[orbm1]

Craig,

I found this page:

http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/vista

they are saying that it may work, but they recommend vista 32bit...

maybe Dennis would give us more details....

Thanks

:thu:

[Dennis DeSantis]

Hi folks,

Basically, I can only pass on the official party line in re: Vista.

It is likely that everything will work fine under 64-bit versions. But we haven't tested this extensively and we don't officially support it.

We do officially support 32-bit versions of Vista.

Best,

[lfbray]

I work with ableton 8 in vista 64bit, for a month and a half, never had problems :thu:

in fact, I didn't experience any problems on any other software (pro tools 8 LE and several plugins)...

[Anderton]

As we continue our odyssey through the new effects...

I was at GearFest over the weekend, and saw Huston Singleterry from Ableton do a Live workshop. There's all kinds of cool stuff hidden in Live 8's nooks and crannies, and of course, it's our job here to uncover it! All in all it was very inspiring.

Before getting into the multiband dynamics, I keep being impressed by just how good the effects are in Ableton. Some people don't take them seriously because they don't have 3D GUIs and look like vintage gear, but the quality is there...in particular, the Reverb. While not an addition to Live 8 (I think it got added with Live 7), it sounds really, really good.

If you saw the July issue of EQ Magazine (http://www.eqmag.com), there's a "Power App Alley" on using Ableton's Multiband Dynamics to "unsquash" an overcompressed song. Click here (http://www.eqmag.com/article/ableton-live-8/jun-09/97465) to see the article. (By the way, the thumbnails don't currently open into the full-size image, but I'm told that will be fixed by tomorrow morning.) Before proceeding, I suggest checking it out because it will give you an idea of a practical application that's not normally done with multiband dynamics processors.

[Anderton]

Refer to the first attached image for an overall screen shot. We're dealing with a three-band unit, although if you disable the upper and lower bands, you end up with a traditional single band compressor.

One feature that makes the Multiband Dynamics interesting - and also allows for the "de-squashing" trick described in the previous post - is that there are both "below" and "above" thresholds. However, if you're used to traditional multiband dynamics processors, you may find it difficult to wrap your head around what's happening (I did). Depending on how you set up the controls, you can get four different types of dynamics processing, as shown in the second attached image:

Downward compression. This is the standard way to compress, where loud signals are pushed down in level to reduce dynamic range.
Upward compression. Here, softer signals are pushed upward; the end result is still reduced dynamic range.
Downward expansion. This is the usual expansion mode that used to reduce noise, where soft signals are made software.
Upward expansion. This expands peaks above the threshold, according to the ratio control.

For example, if the Above threshold is set to -10 and the ratio is greater than 1:1 (e.g., 1:0.5), then the peaks above that threshold will be expanded upward. Conversely, if the ratio is smaller than 1:1 (e.g., 1:4), then the peaks above the threshold will be compressed downward.

Another example: If the Below threshold is set to -10 and the ratio is greater than 1:1 (e.g., 1:0.5), then the peaks below that threshold will be expanded downward. Conversely, if the ratio is smaller than 1:1 (e.g., 1:4), then the peaks below the threshold will be compressed upward.

See? I told you it would take a while to wrap your head around it... :)

In the third attached image, the middle band is soloed. The Below threshold (highlighted in red for clarity) applies upward compression to a drum loop signal, thus bringing up low-level sounds and room noise. The Above threshold (highlighted in blue for clarity) has upward expansion applied, so that peaks become louder and "jump out" of the mix.

[Anderton]

Before getting into the audio examples, let's go over the rest of the Multiband Dynamics options.

You can set a Crossover point for the high and low bands, as well as Activate/Deactivate and Solo each band. Each band has an Input control, which as you saw in the "de-squash" example, is essential if you want to open up more headroom for expanding peaks. Each band also has an Output control, so if you don't apply any compression or expansion, you can use the output controls to change the level of each frequency band - essentially turning the Multiband Dynamics processor into a type of EQ.

The T, B, and A buttons select different parameters fields for each band for Time (you can set Attack and Release), Below threshold and ratio, and Above threshold and Ratio. You can also change these graphically by dragging on the Above and Below blocks, then dragging up or down to change the ratio. If you're into a more intuitive approach and just want to listen, the drag approach is ideal. If you've been using dynamics control for a while and already know ballpark threshold and ratio amounts for particular signals, you might prefer clicking and dragging in the numerical fields to set values.

You can choose Soft Knee or Hard Knee curves (this is global for all bands), and RMS or Peak response. There's an overall Master Output control as well as the Output controls for each band, a Time control that scales all Attack and Release settings if you want to shorten or lengthen the values as a group, and finally, a very cool control: Amount, which sounds like it scales the Ratio settings although I'm not totally sure that's all that's happening.

Overall, this is an exceptionally powerful dynamics processor once you get the hang of it. The metering is helpful, as it displays both the incoming level (the narrow yellow bands) and the output level (the VU meter-like orange bands). Being able to "pull" drums out of a loop to make them more percussive, or apply standard compression techniques to increase average levels, gives tremendous latitude over how you process the signal.

[Anderton]

Here's a good use of the Multiband Dynamics module - winning a victory in the loudness wars :thu:

The first attached image shows the multiband dynamics processor in action. Note that the orange output meters have peaks that exceed the yellow input level bands.

The second attached image shows the two files compared in Wavelab. As you can see, the peaks in the "Desquashed" versions are much peakier than the super-compressed original version.

As to audio examples, the first audio example is the original, compressed file. The second audio example is the desquashed version with the restored peaks.

Granted, the desquashed version sounds a lot less dramatic when played back at the same volume setting as the original version - that's why people squash the crap out of the dynamic range! But try this: Turn the volume up when you listen to the desquashed version, and you'll hear a restortion of dynamics that's pretty cool compared to the original.

I made the difference between the two substantial so that the difference would be obvious, but of course, you can apply the "de-squashing" more subtly - for example, restoring dynamics to an overly-compressed drum loop.

[Anderton]

Just got this in my email inbox today:

Summer 2009 is Ableton's Summer of Sampler. We're giving away a special Sampler package with new sounds, lessons, presets, Instrument Racks and Construction Kits: Samplification.

Samplification includes:

* 19 Construction Kits
* 3 Live Sets with drum clips
* 97 new Instrument Racks
* Sampler tutorials
* New samples from Puremagnetik
* Samples from Cycling '74
* Selected sounds from SoundObjects Lite by SonArte

Download Samplification for free:

http://ableton.com/nl318-samplification

Samplification is a Live Pack. Download size is around 450 MB (uncompressed). Installation size is about 950 MB.

Happy sampling this summer,

The Ableton team

I'm downloading it right now...

[Anderton]

I thoguht I'd try using the Multiband Dynamics effect to mess with a standard acoustic drum loop, which you'll hear in the first audio example (from the Discrete Drums library).

Now check out the second audio example, which uses the settings shown in the attached image. We've done quite a lot to the poor drums...

The high band for percussion is set for extreme upward expansion, making the various percussive sounds extremely percussive. The mid band downward compresses the snare (you can make out the Below block toward the left of the mid band), and the low band uses upward expansion to bring out the kick drum peaks, while removing some of the ambience to give more of an "old school" sound.

Time to move on to the vocoder and limiter...unless, of course, you have any questions.

[Anderton]

Back to Pro Reviews! NAMM is over, the videos (http://namm.harmony-central.com/SNAMM09) are edited, and the NAMM edition of the Harmony Central Confidential (http://www.harmony-central.com/Newsletter/) newsletter is put to bed and will ship in a few days. So, no more show stuff until AES...back to music.

Before going to the new vocoder, let's take a quick look at the limiter. This is something Live has needed for a while for those instances where you want to squash a signal, reduce its dynamic range when playing live, or catch transients on instruments in individual channels.

Referring to the attached image (the Limiter is the module to the right), the controls are fairly standard. Gain sets how much signal level hits the limiter, so the more gain, the more of the signal gets limited...as shown on the Gain Reduction meter (not labeled) toward the right, with the orange bar indicating the amount of gain reduction at that instant. Lookahead trades off a little bit of delay through the plug-in to "look ahead" and make sure that any transients are caught as they happen, not slightly after (choices for Lookahead are 1.5, 3. and 6 ms).

Release sets the time for the dynamics to return to normal after being limited, Stereo links the two channels to preserve stereo image (although clicking on it chooses L/R, which limits each channel independently), and Ceiling sets an upper limit on the signal - typically, you'd set this just below 0 if you wanted the maximum amount of output level short of distortion.

But of course, an example audio tells all. The first audio example is of a loop with no limiting; the peaks hit 0dB. In the second audio example, the peaks also hit 0dB, but this time, a lot of limiting has been applied to raise the average level - as you'll hear, it has a much higher perceived volume level.

The irony of it all, of course, is that Live now has the limiting tools to get hugely squashed sounds if that's what you want, but with the multiband dynamics, you can "undo" some of the negative effects of excessive compression...so you're pretty much covered either way!

[Anderton]

Next up: The Vocoder. In case you're not clear on what a vocoder does, here's the basic concept.

A vocoder is a signal processor with two inputs and one output. One input analyzes a signal (the modulator) for the amount of energy that exists at any given moment in various filter bands (from 4 to hundreds, depending on the vocoder; Live's does from 4 to 40).

The second input is the carrier. It passes though a similar series of filter bands, except that each one is controlled by the analysis data from the modulator. For example, if a kick drum is the modulator, the carrier's low frequencies will be let through the filter corresponding filters. This is how the sound of one signal gets impressed upon the other.

For speech, the voice is the modulator, and something like noise, synthesizer, power chords, whatever provide the carrier. As you talk, the frequencies that make up speech are impressed on the carrier.

I'm a huge fan of vocoders, but not really for their intended purpose: I like to modulate something like a synth pad with drums, rather than make the synth pad "talk." There are a few exceptions with vocals - like using noise to simulate crowd sounds - but doing unusual combinations of modulator and carrier can create novel, interesting effects.

So, as we look over the vocoder, let's evaluate it not just as a standard vocoder, but how well it can do these other types of "cross-synthesis" effects.

[Anderton]

When you want to use the Vocoder, start off with the track you want to use as the modulator, and insert the Vocoder as you would any other plug-in. The first attached image shows the setup used in this example: The Modulator track (1) has a drum loop, while track (2), the Carrier, has a sustained power chord loop (the tracks are outlined in red). Note that in addition to the Vocoder, there's also a Simple Delay added to process the vocoder sound.

We have choices of carriers for the vocoder (circled in green), including internal noise, the modulator (so the modulator signal feeds both the modulator and carrier ins), or pitch tracking, when the carrier is a monophonic oscillator that tracks the modulator signal's pitch (well, more or less - we'll get into that later). What's cool is that you can choose any audio track, pre or post FX; this makes it easy in this case to choose Track 2 with the carrier. If you want to use multiple tracks for modulation, no problem: Just send them to a Send, and use that as the carrier.

The Vocoder has a lot of options you can use to tweak the sound, but before getting into that, check out the attached audio example. It's the result of using the drum loop to modify the power chord, and while a fairly basic vocoder application, it's still pretty cool :cool:

[Anderton]

As mentioned previousoy, Live's Vocoder lets you specify the number of bands, from 4 to 40. More bands gives a sort of increased "resolution" to the sound.

The first attached image shows four bands in action, while the second attached image shows what happens with 40 bands selected.

And of course, you want audio examples! The first audio example is the sound of a drum loop modulating the internal noise source, which is being used as a carrier, using 4 bands. The second audio example uses 20 bands, and the third audio example uses the 40-band option.

As the number of bands increases, you can hear much more clearly how individual drum sounds are modulating the noise. However, this doesn't automatically mean "more bands = more good." The sound of the 4-band option, for example, recalls Kraftwerk's Trans-Europe Express drum sound, which is pretty cool.

Also note that the difference between 20 bands and 40 bands is far more subtle than the difference between 4 bands and 20 bands.

[BuleriaChk]

Can the footswitch(s) of the apc-40 be configured to emulate the space bar in Live (start/stop); with the same pedal? If not, it is absurd that Live can't make the spacebar visible as a MIDI control for this function .....

[Anderton]

As far as I can tell - Dennis, correct me if I'm wrong - it's not possible to toggle play/stop with a single footswitch. You would have to plug the Start footswitch in FS1 and the Stop footswitch in FS2. I assume this is because control can be assigned only to those parameters shown on screen, and there's no "toggle play/stop" button.

[Anderton]

The first audio example shows how the sound changes when rotating the Depth control from fully counter-clockwise to fully clockwise. It starts off with the modulation having very little effect, but as it turns up, the modulation affects the sound more and more.

The second audio example illustrates how the formant control changes the sound. As you can hear, it changes the sound's timbre.

You'll also recall from previous pictures there's a Precise/Retro switch. The third audio example is the Vocoder in Retro mode, with other controls set to their defaults, while the fourth audio example uses Precise mode.

[BuleriaChk]

Am I the only one in the world who finds this absolutely absurd in a performance oriented DAW. I'm a guitarist, and want to use Live as backing, controlling stop/start with a simple (toggle - fs-6) footswitch.

This is a Live issue; and it would be an easy fix to make the spacebar visible and assign a MIDI parameter to it. It is hard for me to understand why (in an otherwise brilliant program) this simple but powerful capability has been rejected.

(Sheesh, even the Boss BR series does this)

I have written Ableton over and over again about this, and simply cannot understand why this feature is not an inherent part of the program....


As far as I can tell - Dennis, correct me if I'm wrong - it's not possible to toggle play/stop with a single footswitch. You would have to plug the Start footswitch in FS1 and the Stop footswitch in FS2. I assume this is because control can be assigned only to those parameters shown on screen, and there's no "toggle play/stop" button.

[Anderton]

Well, you can't record solo button clicks either...that's been lacking since day one and never fixed.

Ableton tells me that function is embedded so deep in the code that it would require a serious rewrite to make it do what I want it to do. Maybe the Stop/Start thing is the same way.

Maybe the solution is to put a jack in your QWERTY keyboard and wire it in parallel with the space bar!

[mchenetz]

I think a solution would be to write a MAX patch that takes the input from the footswitch and then toggles between the value of start and stop and then sends the aforementioned signals to ableton. I would write it, but i don't have the footswitch. Maybe I will get one and write it.

Mike

[Anderton]

Of course! That makes a lot of sense, and I guess that sort of thing is one reason why Live has the "hooks" for Max.

[mchenetz]

I cannot wait for Max-For-Live! I am mainly a Logic user. But I anticipate using live a lot more when Max-for-Live comes out. My Jazzmutant Lemur is sitting, patiently, waiting for some great integration with Live. Write now I have to write a Max patch and have a separate app running with all the connections to the hardware and software. I believe Ableton and Cycling 74 have a winning combination with Max-for-Live.

[Anderton]

Now that we've covered the effects, let's look at the overhauled warping engine. First, though, we need some backstory before we get into the nuts & bolts.

I've always had a love/hate relationship with Live's warping. The Love parts:

* You can bring in just about anything, and Live will figure out the measure length and loop it correctly most of the time.
* There are different algorithms you can choose to optimize the warping quality.
* The Complex Warping, where you can import a really long file (even one recorded in free time) and Live figures out where to put the transients and pins them to a tempo, is essentially magic.

The Hate parts:

* Unlike Acid or Sonar, you couldn't actually DO anything to optimize the looping, like edit transient markers.
* I always felt moving warp markers was counter-intuitive: Instead of moving the waveform against a fixed time grid, you moved the time to match the waveform...although you were actually moving the waveform. Confused? Don't worry about it, that's not an issue in Live 8.
* When using the beats algorithm, if the beat fell in the middle of a sustained section (e.g., an open hi-hat or cymbal), there would be a slice and you would hear a discontinuity, regardless of whether it actually needed to be sliced.

So let's hear it for Live 8, which eliminates all the problems I had with warping thanks to the overhauled warp engine! In the process, Live has gone from "looping is a no-brainer" to "looping is a no-brainer, but if you want to use your brain, you can."

I love it. I'll go away for a bit to generate some audio examples and screen shots for the next few posts.

[Anderton]

The key to optimizing stretching is being able to edit the transient markers that instruct a file where to stretch. This is something Acid and Sonar have been able to do for Acidized files, the Apple Loops utility from Apple does optimization for Apple Loops, and Cubase has the ability to create "hit points," among other examples. Now, Live gives you this option as well.

Referring to the first attached image, when you go to warp a clip Live generates transient markers where it thinks transients are. These are circled in red. The one around 3.3.3 lines up with the transient, but the transient doesn't line up with the beat. The one around 3.3.4 is ahead of the transient and a bit ahead of the beat. Live can fix all of these issues.

If you shift-click on a marker and drag it left or right, it displays a yellow square. You can then drop the marker anywhere you want - typically, right at the start of a transient. The second attached image shows that the marker at 3.3.4 has now been moved to the exact start of the transient, which interestingly enough, falls right on the beat.

If you ctrl-drag a marker, it turns into a Warp marker. You can then drag this and the transient it's associated with right to the beat. The third attached image shows the final result of moving these three markers as appropriate, then "pinning" them precisely to the beat.

Next, some audio examples so you can hear that the stretching doesn't mess with the fidelity very much - and also, a fun surprising thing you can do with markers.

Stay tuned...

[Anderton]

Okay, here are some audio examples of stretching in action on a couple guitar riffs. I recorded these with a drum pattern so you'd have a rhythmic reference, making it easier to hear the changes.

The first audio example takes a guitar riff and tightens the timing. In the original, the offbeat is a little premature, and there are some other loose timing issues as well. The second audio example is quantized, and locks in with the drums really well.

The third audio example is more dramatic. The original riff uses syncopation that worked well in one context, but didn't sound so great with a straight drum part. The fourth audio example changes the rhythm around completely, making the riff more useable with non-syncopated drum patterns.

What's also worth noting here is the sound quality. Lots of stretching algorithms do okay with something like drums, but have a hard time dealing with complex sounds like distorted guitar. In these cases, the stretching hardly affects the sound at all.