Counterfeit Fenders are okay, though?

[gtrjones]

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2277976

and

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2271341&highlight=american+telecaster

Both guitars have fake 'Fender' logos applied to guitars that were not built by Fender - this is trademark infringement, and is just as much an intellectual property issue as the Chinese 'Gibsun' guitars...

shouldn't those ads be pulled as well? Both have been reported, the second one several days ago, but it remains an active ad.

Or perhaps someone can explain why this is okay, while the Chinese Gibsuns are not.

[cenoch]

The parts are fender licensed.

[customtele]

These guitars are obviously not Fender. I wouldn't mind witha different name attached. Fender guitars are probably the most copied of all. I do agree that litigation is in order in these cases.

[Jim85IROC]

The difference is that one is a home built guitar that was never intended to defraud anybody, and has been clearly and accurately represented by the builder/seller. The other is an offshore mass-produced fake with the intention of taking advantage of unknowing buyers.

[gtrjones]

cenoch - Fender licenses warmoth, allparts, musickraft, etc to build necks using only the trademarked headstock SHAPE. Fender has NEVER licensed anyone to use their name/logo/decal.

Jim85IROC - and the similarity is that in each case, the intellectual property (trademark name) is applied to a guitar that the company that owns that trademarked name did not build. Regardless of 'intent', it's still trademark infringement. We've been told by H-C that the Chinese guitars cannot be resold here, even with full disclosure. Because of the trademark on the headstock - Aren't these 'Fenders' the same in that respect?

[chadd]

The difference is that one is a home built guitar that was never intended to defraud anybody, and has been clearly and accurately represented by the builder/seller. The other is an offshore mass-produced fake with the intention of taking advantage of unknowing buyers.

Once you put the name on the headstock, you have crossed the line. While the seller here may not be passing it off as genuine, anyone that buys it could attempt to do so.

[cenoch]

Hmm... So you are saying if I bought a replacement neck from Warmoth for my genuine Fender Strat, it would be illegal to put a decal on it? What if I got it from a store like the Stratosphere?

[customtele]

Or if you put a genuine Fender neck on a homemade body does that mean you need to remove the decal before you can sell it? If an individual is honest, IMO all is right. The intent is what is important. Not compliance with the letter of the law.

[chadd]

Or if you put a genuine Fender neck on a homemade body does that mean you need to remove the decal before you can sell it? If an individual is honest, IMO all is right. The intent is what is important. Not compliance with the letter of the law.

Compliance with the letter of the law is what is required if you don't want to end up giving money to lawyers.

[gtrjones]

Hmm... So you are saying if I bought a replacement neck from Warmoth for my genuine Fender Strat, it would be illegal to put a decal on it? What if I got it from a store like the Stratosphere?


Yes.

You can't just go buy a Fender decal from Fender, and there's a reason. All the decals you see on ebay or wherever are fradulent.

You can buy a Fender-made neck, that has a Fender decal onnit - from Stratosphere or wherever. If you put that on an aftermarket body, you don't have to do anything.

It's the act of actually applying someone's (Fender's) trademarked logo that triggers the infringement.

[cenoch]

According to Fender's consumer relations department, they do offer replacement decals, but only for genuine Fender necks.

[Rhymenocerous]

cenoch - Fender licenses warmoth, allparts, musickraft, etc to build necks using only the trademarked headstock SHAPE. Fender has NEVER licensed anyone to use their name/logo/decal.

Jim85IROC - and the similarity is that in each case, the intellectual property (trademark name) is applied to a guitar that the company that owns that trademarked name did not build. Regardless of 'intent', it's still trademark infringement. We've been told by H-C that the Chinese guitars cannot be resold here, even with full disclosure. Because of the trademark on the headstock - Aren't these 'Fenders' the same in that respect?


These are one-offs, whereas the Chinese guitars are mass-produced. Sellers aren't passing them off as fakes; I'd let it slide.

[fretwizz]

"...Fender guitars are probably the most copied of all..."

Because they are the best.:thu:

[gnoj_LL]

they are not mass produced, so both tele's are fine.

[larryguitar]

they are not mass produced, so both tele's are fine.

Really? I think Fender might take a different view....

[Persian_Man]

Because they are the best.:thu:

Rock started in the 50's in America, and at the time Fender was brand new and they were the best in terms of quality and innovation - essentially if you needed a serious guitar and amp Fender was the only game in town. Fender has since become synonymous with rock 'n roll and being cool. Yes, the Les Paul is what it is but it was a guitar used by the British and nobody British was cool until the Beatles . . . Fender's were the first 'cool' guitars - of course forever after they are the most copied.

[MoneyMunday606]

I just bought a Fender copy a few months ago for the hell of it, and surprisingly it sounds really good. Worth every penny of $115

[staticoverdub]

Compliance with the letter of the law is what is required if you don't want to end up giving money to lawyers.

I think the biggest issue when it comes to this is that when an individual purchases a Fender decal and applies it to a licensed neck, Fender has some say over the quality of that neck. In almost all cases, the neck performs at least to the standards of Fender's own MIM models. This issue comes into play if you look at brand image and reputation; the Fender logo on a beautiful, well made part will leave users and spectators with a positive impression, while if it were applied to a P.O.S. Chinese import the brand itself suffers.

I agree that if taken strictly at face value, owners who apply the Fender decal to their legit, quality "Fender" guitars are indeed breaking the law. I just don't think Fender or any U.S. government has the motivation to do something about it.

[Whatiswhat]

Or if you put a genuine Fender neck on a homemade body does that mean you need to remove the decal before you can sell it? If an individual is honest, IMO all is right. The intent is what is important. Not compliance with the letter of the law.

:facepalm: IMO stupid ...hello mr kant

[Whatiswhat]

Hmm... So you are saying if I bought a replacement neck from Warmoth for my genuine Fender Strat, it would be illegal to put a decal on it? What if I got it from a store like the Stratosphere?
:evil:
:facepalm: christ... put the warmoth logo on ur warmoth neck or perhaps u would put a honda logo on ur Ford F-150:rolleyes:

[igonuts2]

Yes.

You can't just go buy a Fender decal from Fender, and there's a reason. All the decals you see on ebay or wherever are fradulent.

You can buy a Fender-made neck, that has a Fender decal onnit - from Stratosphere or wherever. If you put that on an aftermarket body, you don't have to do anything.

It's the act of actually applying someone's (Fender's) trademarked logo that triggers the infringement.

something is fishy here.

for example. i can buy a ford (car) and put a chevy eng in it. lable it any thing i want on the fender, including "ford", and sell it with no w/ no leagal issues.
exactly the same. however, i think if i presented the vehicle as "new" or "OEM" there would be issues. also a private seller of vehicles in most states carries with it an "as is" leagal posture.

whats up w/that?

dont get me wrong. im not a fan of copies, or intended deception. just saying.

edit:
i should say that i'm not trying to be argumentative here. really curious as to why they would be different legal scenarios

[sfam198]

i don't really think that's the same comparison.

if i buy a strat and change the pickups, it's still a strat. if i buy a ford and put a chevy engine in it, it's still a ford.

now if i were to build a replica of a ford in my garage and then try to pass it off as a genuine ford to an unsuspecting seller, that's where the problems come in.

[Akrylik]

My view is that those sellers aren't trying to sell it off as genuine. They put the decals on and state that it's not of authentic roots. They can argue that the items are traded for personal use.

I'm no fan of copies, however these are the arguements they can use.

From a different perspective, if you put the decals on your computer instead of the guitar, would you consider it an offence? Surely not as it is simply of decorative measure. Same goes with the decals, it's only of decorative measure and without the intention to scam, it's not a breach. However, the mass production of a non genuine item, even if stated could be seen as an intention to do so.

It is also arguable that putting together a genuine part Fender Stratocaster then selling it off is an offence, as it is not assembled in the Fender factories; unless it is stated.

I personally have seen much more of the second situation instead of the first one :P.

[Phait]

How do you guys know these are fake from the pics?

[Kuz929]

Jim85IROC - and the similarity is that in each case, the intellectual property (trademark name) is applied to a guitar that the company that owns that trademarked name did not build. Regardless of 'intent', it's still trademark infringement. We've been told by H-C that the Chinese guitars cannot be resold here, even with full disclosure. Because of the trademark on the headstock - Aren't these 'Fenders' the same in that respect?

intent is the entire interpretation here! if the manufacturer INTENDS to mass produce and illegally sell fake products as real ones, the INTENT is there for copyright infringement.

if someone just builds a guitar from parts they buy, and then buy a Fender sticker to put on the headstock, as long as they dont try and pass it off as the real thing (which neither of your examples did) then its completely legal. one person is not a company. one person isnt trying to scam people

[gtrjones]

intent is the entire interpretation here! if the manufacturer INTENDS to mass produce and illegally sell fake products as real ones, the INTENT is there for copyright infringement.

if someone just builds a guitar from parts they buy, and then buy a Fender sticker to put on the headstock, as long as they dont try and pass it off as the real thing (which neither of your examples did) then its completely legal. one person is not a company. one person isnt trying to scam people

Wrong.

Regardless of intent (whether the seller intends to convince anyone that it is or is not a Fender), only Fender has the rights to affix "Fender" or "Stratocaster" or "Telecaster", etc to ANY instrument. It doesn't matter if you are completely up front (as some sellers are) about the fact that the body was made by Warmoth, and the neck by AllParts, it's the act of using the Fender name, that only Fender has the right to use, that is the infringement issue.