New Legislation May Prevent Stolen Items Sold Through Ebay & CL

[Screaming Stone]

I just heard about these two pieces of legislation that are designed to not make it so easy for thieves to sell stolen instruments on Ebay and Craigslist. It's HR6713 E-fencing Enforcement Act of 2008, and HR6491, Organized Retail Crime Act of 2008.

Glad to see Congress is doing something about those digital back-alleys.

[ido1957]

Do you have a link?
How do you prevent people from selling stolen stuff on eBay?

Selling stolen stuff is already illegal.

How do you know if it's stolen if the owner doesn't notice it?

If the authorities do find out, the seller (if caught) could be charged with possession anyway.

What's so special about this particular new possible law that makes it better than what already exists.

I don't like stolen gear (I've had a few guitars stolen so I know).....

[Dave67]

After my RG550 was stolen the neck showed up on Ebay, I had the serial number. I call the local PD and gave the info. They contacted the seller and found that he had bought from someone and back track to the thief.
I didn't get my guitar back, but did watch the SOB get 5 years in the state pen.

[Screaming Stone]

HR6713 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.6713.IH:)
HR6491 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:h6491:)

[normh]

"(c) Take-Down Requirement- Upon the request of a recipient of contact information under this section, it shall be the duty of the provider to determine, based on information reasonably available to it or that could be obtained by the provider without undue expense, whether the goods or items were lawfully acquired. If the provider determines that there is good reason to believe the goods or items were unlawfully acquired, it shall be the duty of the provider to preclude access by the high volume seller to the online marketplace with respect to those goods or items."

These laws are not about stopping stolen goods; they are about creating a wall that precludes the small seller on Ebay - meaning you, so that you can not compete with the big "Brick and Mortar" seller or the high volume retailer. This is a money grab by the corporate interests at the expense of the small seller or business who undersells those interests. It nothing to do with stopping the sales of stolen goods. The stolen goods are only added to give plausibility.

What next? How about a law that prohibits you from playing your original music unless you can prove that it is original?

[Screaming Stone]

I don't see how this legislation affects the small seller.

The part of the legislation you are referring to is designed for high-volume theft of retail items and for counterfeit items. Stores like WalMart are getting in because they will have boxes of items stolen - for example watches - that are then sold on EBay. Gibson sees a bunch of Les Pauls for sale, thinks they are fake, and submits a Take Down - the seller has to prove how they acquired those guitars. That protects the musician.

From the legislation:

(3) the term `high volume seller' means any person who, through the online marketplace, sells or offers for sale goods or items--

(A) of a value of $5,000 or more in any single offering; or
(B) of a value of $12,000 or more in one or more offerings during the course of the preceding 365 days; and

Additionally, the Take Down Request requires a police report
(4) the term `inquirer with standing under this section to seek' means any person who provides to the online marketplace provider a signed report made to or received from a criminal law enforcement agency reporting the unsolved theft from that person during the preceding 365 days of goods matching the description of those offered on the online marketplace after the theft.'.

Now, trying to see your logic - if you are selling a guitar for over $5000 and someone submits a police report of the SAME guitar for a Take Down - wouldn't it make sense that the serial numbers would be checked? If you are saying GC might submit take down requests to remove your guitar to kill the competition - GC will definitely have serial numbers - which won't match your guitar - so again I don't see the problem.

I'd like to understand your logic because I'm being asked to contribute to a book on E-Fencing - which is how I found out about this legislation.

[normh]

I don't see how this legislation affects the small seller.

The part of the legislation you are referring to is designed for high-volume theft of retail items and for counterfeit items. Stores like WalMart are getting in because they will have boxes of items stolen - for example watches - that are then sold on EBay. Gibson sees a bunch of Les Pauls for sale, thinks they are fake, and submits a Take Down - the seller has to prove how they acquired those guitars.

You, like I, have one guitar for 35 years and decide to sell it as 'Vintage' or antique (Which my dead father bought for me when I was 15 or 16, so that I never had the bill of sale in the first place). Where is the original bill of sale? How do you prove it is not stolen? On the other hand, GC would love to give me 25% the value of the instrument.

HYPOTHETICAL: I just bought a batch of watches that resemble watches sold by Walmart and from the same Chinese manufacturer or supplier. The watches do not have serial numbers and match the description of the watches stolen from WM. The only difference is that my sales invoice shows I bought a different number of watches and that they were shipped to a different address than WM. The incorrect claim of stolen property by WM not only ties up my inventory and exposes me to criminal investigation and charges, but also sullies my name and might destroy my business.

That protects the musician.

How does it protect the musician? Be real. A professional thief will have the item sold before it is "Picked up" whereas a casual or amateur thief will try to sell the item after the fact.

From the legislation:

(3) the term `high volume seller' means any person who, through the online marketplace, sells or offers for sale goods or items--


(A) of a value of $5,000 or more in any single offering; or
(B) of a value of $12,000 or more in one or more offerings during the course of the preceding 365 days;

Artificial distinction of high volume seller. A single item can cost more than $12,000 or several small items can cost over $5,000 - items YOU made - oh say, pet rocks or resinated four leaf clovers, rabbits feet, or home grown and packaged herbs.

and

Additionally, the Take Down Request requires a police report

1. Got a printer? Look closely into the mortgage crisis, many fraudulent bank statements and W2's were used. Check Google's cashed pages and find people who sold those for home printing. Think it cant be done with other things.

2. Do you REALLY think Gibson, WM, Dillards, Best Buy, etc. are going to have to produce a police report? They do not have to now. What will change?

(4) the term `inquirer with standing under this section to seek' means any person who provides to the online marketplace provider a signed report made to or received from a criminal law enforcement agency reporting the unsolved theft from that person during the preceding 365 days of goods matching the description of those offered on the online marketplace after the theft.'.

Above paragraph, and as example, pre 1976 Ibanez guitars do not have serial numbers. Ibanez acoustics prior to 1976 sporadically had serial numbers.

Now, trying to see your logic - if you are selling a guitar for over $5000 and someone submits a police report of the SAME guitar for a Take Down - wouldn't it make sense that the serial numbers would be checked? If you are saying GC might submit take down requests to remove your guitar to kill the competition - GC will definitely have serial numbers - which won't match your guitar - so again I don't see the problem.

1. Many high value guitars or other items lack serial numbers.

2. If they have a serial number, the number can be altered.

3. One of my guitars is one of five whose whereabouts is known and it does not have a serial number. I choose to sell it as a collector item, someone covets it and creates false police report. Who verifies police report? The description matches because I presented pictures of it.

I'd like to understand your logic because I'm being asked to contribute to a book on E-Fencing - which is how I found out about this legislation.

I suggest you make friends in the criminal world and learn how many different ways there are to alter items with serial numbers and those serial numbers.

This particular set of proposed laws has been done over by Ars-Technica, Slashdot, and Ebay itself several times as to just what the actual intent was. These two bills were pushed by the big box retailers and the associations of mom and pop B&M stores that could not compete with an e-business that lacks, or has minimal overhead.

This legislation is for the sheeple who do not want to think, or think for themselves, or want someone to think for them, or think laws will correct wrongs. Crime has been around as long as man. Protection begins with self responsibility and self reliance, not with law enforcement, which by definition is after the fact. You gig with you axe, keep an eye on it. You keep you equipment at home, guard it with an alarm or mean dog. If someone wants it bad enough it will still be gone. If collectible enough, it will be sold on the black market.

[Screaming Stone]

norm, I'm glad we live in a time and place where people can express their opinions. I'm not about to try and change yours.

The fact is, EBay and CL are used to sell stolen and counterfeit items. This legislation is a step towards providing a way to curb this activity.

[normh]

You missed the point. With the watches, yes I eventually would get them back and would eventually be allowed to sell them. In the time it takes to deal with the police, courts, and Ebay I may have lost the window of opportunity to sell them at a profit because they may have been some item of fad fashion. In the meantime, the 'Other' retailer makes money from depriving me of the opportunity. FYI: I have had government seize clean computers that I have never been able to get back. I had the police in L.A. seize a 1983 Gibson SG asserting it was stolen. When I went to the then fledgling GC in Hollywood and obtained the bill of sale, the police refused to release the guitar. I went to the prosecutor who told me that I would have to prove that the money the guitar was purchased with was not ill-gotten. I finally went to the judge who issued an order and sent a marshal with me. This took about 4 months. I later found out that a police Captain wanted the guitar.

My uncle volunteers as a clerk for the Folsom, Ca. Sheriffs Dept. once a week. You would be surprised at the stories he has regarding fraudulent, mistaken, and bogus claims. As a teen I was placed in a foster home for about a year in which the man was a detective with the Henderson, Nv Police. He purchased for me a go-cart for $2.00 that was taken from the kid for riding it on the streets and his parents could not provide "Acceptable" proof that they owned it. When I found out the story, I gave the cart to the kid. I was kicked out of the home. I have never forgotten the abuses of authority I had seen.

Regarding the guitar, first is was an example. Second, GC did only offer 25% of its value after I laughed at the 10% and 15% offers.

The point that I am making - perhaps unclearly, that protection of your gear and property is your responsibility not someone else's. Relying one someone else, especially (after the fact) government makes a victim out of you because you have a false sense of security that something will be done if...

The fact is, EBay and CL are used to sell stolen and counterfeit items.

So are pawn shops, trunks of cars, and back allies. Do the laws curb anything?

This past weekend I caught a local pawn shop selling a counterfeit Les Paul. Called Gibson and the companies HQ. When the police got there the guitar and all evidence of it disappeared. This was an interstate pawn chain - Cash America Pawn. I took pictures, and the amplifier that the guitar was displayed with was still sitting in the same place. Just no Guitar or record of it.

[Screaming Stone]

In respect to your past, I completely sympathize with you.

I understand your point that protection of your gear is your responsibility. I also believe that it is not irresponsibility of a home-owner who has their house broken into and had their instruments stolen. Additionally, I think due to the criminal aspect of world, people need to do more to overcome the negativity and make sure the good in the world outweighs the bad. It is great that you contacted Gibson about the Les Paul. It is also why I started the Recovery Project. To do something to help musicians get back their gear - regardless of whether it was taken from a locked home, a secured storage space, or (very irresponsibly) left in a car.

Do the laws curb anything? I do think the laws help - and I also think that no law is perfect. I think our actions do help - because I know the police have not been successful in recovering stolen instruments (they recover less than 3% of reported instrument thefts.) And as we all know, there is a massive problem with counterfeit guitars - which not only hurts the manufacturers, but hurts the musician (albeit, most likely a not too gear knowledgeable musician) who does not know what he is buying.

I think just talking about this helps.

[normh]

Regarding the home being broken into. A few weeks ago two of my outside security lights were tripped simultaneously, my yard motion detectors were also tripped. Could be an animal, so I went out and looked. I did not see anyone, so I said in a clear and loud voice. Enjoy yourselves for having fun. Should you get in, the house is fully alarmed and has inside video surveillance. I also have two dogs inside. Funny, a door on the house next door was slammed. I do not live in a high crime area and I am not rich or even well off by any means.

Someone next door was either having fun, testing my security, or making an attempt to break in believing no one was home on the face of the events.

While many burglaries may be committed by strangers, many more are committed by someone who knows you and knows what there is to take. In this case, many people around me know I have several instruments and computers in the house, but only three people know just what I have - myself, my wife, and my closest friend who lives 40 miles away. Those are also the only people who know the full extent of my security system. Others just see the dogs when I let them out for "Business." I do let many people into the home because I work at home. The single room they are allowed into has its own entrance, attached bathroom, highly visible video monitoring, and has doors between it and the rest of the house.

We have laws. Rather than creating new unenforced ones that can be abused, why not just simple enforce the ones we have. Regardless of the laws, my first line of defense is myself and not government who can one respond after the fact.

Recovery of stolen property is abysmal, especially with instruments. Most instruments are for personal use and not readily available for common site. This, in my mind, is the reason for low recovery rates.

Regarding the counterfeit, I have no problem with knock-offs as long as they are clearly identified. I draw the line at trademark infringement. That guitar had the Gibson name on it in more or less correct period font, was aged to look like it was 20 years old, had a three screw truss cover, incorrect binding at the headstock neck juncture, and lacked nibs over the frets without indication of fretwork. It was also priced about the same as the real LP behind the counter. If the headstock would have read S101, I would not have thought twice about it. I would much rather buy an S101 ES-355 knock off made from real wood for $250 - $600 than I would a Gibson ES-355 made from plywood for $4000 +. Not to mention that the quality of the S101 is much better than the Gibson.

[Forummoto]

+1 on the creating new laws Normh. Let's just spend more money on creating and talking about new laws, and less on actually fixing the problem.

[Screaming Stone]

And how do you fix the problem of instrument theft? There's always going to be thieves out there who are going to be stealing stuff. The police have failed at getting them back. That's why I'm going for the approach of helping musicians get back their stolen instruments by publicizing instrument thefts to other musicians.

Now the million dollar question - how do we get more musicians helping too look for these stolen instruments? Checking to see if an instrument that they are about to buy is stolen? There's THOUSANDS in rewards being offered - that should be an incentive - $1000 was awarded just last week.

So how do we fix the problem?

[normh]

There is an old very low tech way of securing your instrument and other goods that works well and was long ago recommended by the police. Inscribe your name and drivers license number of the instrument. Not recommended for antique instruments, except in a low visibility area such as in a control cavity, but for other instruments on the back of the headstock or the backing plate. This also has a deterrent effect because the instrument is now visibly traceable. If you wanted to a less permanent method is a DYI decal kit from a hobby store, but this method can be easily removed. With the inscription method the police will start asking questions if it if altered, and if also performed in a hidden area as well as visible you would be able to say "Hey, that is my guitar" and be able to prove it.

Property of: Jack the Ripper
Driver License No: 1234-5678-90xyz

Most criminals that are caught are caught in circumstances that have nothing to do with the original crime. They get pulled over in a traffic stop or questioned at a rambunctious party, etc. Cop gets your name, sees another on an instrument, and instantly goes into red flag mode.

[Screaming Stone]

There is an old very low tech way of securing your instrument and other goods that works well and was long ago recommended by the police. Inscribe your name and drivers license number of the instrument. Not recommended for antique instruments, except in a low visibility area such as in a control cavity, but for other instruments on the back of the headstock or the backing plate. This also has a deterrent effect because the instrument is now visibly traceable. If you wanted to a less permanent method is a DYI decal kit from a hobby store, but this method can be easily removed. With the inscription method the police will start asking questions if it if altered, and if also performed in a hidden area as well as visible you would be able to say "Hey, that is my guitar" and be able to prove it.

Property of: Jack the Ripper
Driver License No: 1234-5678-90xyz

Most criminals that are caught are caught in circumstances that have nothing to do with the original crime. They get pulled over in a traffic stop or questioned at a rambunctious party, etc. Cop gets your name, sees another on an instrument, and instantly goes into red flag mode.

While it is a good idea to inscribe your name/ID on or in your guitar - that's not really a deterrent from theft. The majority of thefts reported to my site are of instruments that already are readily identifiable.

My own experience of having someone steal one of my guitars in a case would not be deterred by inscribing my name.

Another point is - when someone buys an instrument - and they see a name in the control cavity/backplate... I'm pretty sure the first thing going through their mind IS NOT that the guitar is stolen, but rather, its a marking from a previous owner.

Now, if the new owner checks the stolen instrument listing - and sees that its listed - that's going to get it back to the rightful owner (that is depending on if the guy who bought it decides to actually turn it over to the person who got ripped off.)

[narwhal]

While I like the idea of trying to recover stolen property, making criminals out of people who did not know it was stolen is not the way to do it, IMHO. The obvious solution they came up with is to designate everything "stolen", and require proof that it isn't, knowing full-well that that proof is impossible to come up with for 99% of items bought and sold.

:facepalm:

.

[FireWithin]

While I like the idea of trying to recover stolen property, making criminals out of people who did not know it was stolen is not the way to do it, IMHO. The obvious solution they came up with is to designate everything "stolen", and require proof that it isn't, knowing full-well that that proof is impossible to come up with for 99% of items bought and sold.

:facepalm:

.

+1 Add to that with everything being nationalized and the gov't. stomping out small biz owners - we are going to have a hard time after we lose our jobs trying to sell off our music gear to pay the bills.

...just one more way to make us all live on the same level.

[Screaming Stone]

Not that I'm 100% behind the legislation - but I think it's important that comments be responded to.

So I take it the small biz is trying to sell a Fender USA Black Strat and a Big Box submits a Take-Down saying it's stolen - a Take-Down requires a police report, so you're saying that you think a Big Box is going to try and submit a police report with no serial number to take down your Fender USA Black Strat that has a serial number? Who within the Big Box would submit that to take down your guitar? Would the Big Box employ someone just to submit police reports of stolen gear? Would they falsify police reports or would they keep calling the police saying such-and-such item was stolen from this store - even though nothing was stolen and they just wanted a police report - again with no serial number? Would the Big Box really put itself in that type of legal situation? Big Boxes like Sam Ash, Guitar Center, Best Buy have inventory systems that track serial numbers. They are not going to risk falsifying a police report just to take down your guitar being sold on CL or EBay.

I do see Gibson seeing some company selling counterfeit Gibsons. They submit a Take-Down. The seller removes his counterfeit Gibsons from CL/EBay. This hurts the counterfeit seller (who'll just find another site), and it actually helps the small biz owner, musicians and collectors trying to sell real Gibsons.

[mondaymonkey]

hmmmm

Well I am a little bit worried that Big Box might abuse its powers...

[bfglp]

big box stores buy used gear (for pennies on the dollar) and sell it also.

ebay should not let any equipment be sold without a serial # listed or on file to protect from serial # theft. this would only take away one avenue for fencing stolen goods.

[Screaming Stone]

big box stores buy used gear (for pennies on the dollar) and sell it also.

ebay should not let any equipment be sold without a serial # listed or on file to protect from serial # theft. this would only take away one avenue for fencing stolen goods.

I agree.

You do bring up an interesting point about serial number theft. While I have heard many people talk about it - I've never heard of anything ever happening due to it. I doubt someone would go to the effort of modifying the serial number of a stolen guitar to another serial number they obtained off of someone's posting of their guitar for sale. I would think if they were going to modify the serial number, they would just modify the serial number due to manufacturer's serial number sequences are very easily obtained - one really doesn't need to find a serial number from one for sale.

[bfglp]

i use these sites to see what year guitars are;
http://www.guitardaterproject.org/fender.aspx
http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx

maybe you could work with them to also let people know if an insturment is stolen.