Does the key of a song matter?

[WowieZowie]

If you had a song that was recorded in the key of A, would the feeling, meaning, implications change if it was played in B?

I say yes. I believe that keys actually have meaning to us on some level.

Therefore, singing a song in a particular key can have an impact on the feelings that you are trying to evoke.

This has many implications. And the idea of increasing one's range, then becomes an important issue.

One last thing, did you know that during football games, that when the crowd is cheering, there is a note that all crowds ascend to? (unsure what it is off the top of my head.) In my opinion, this is because notes actually do have meaning. Simple notes have meaning. Keys have meaning in our lives.

[Picker]

Does it make a difference? Yes
How does it make a difference? Not sure

You will certainly get a different feel in a different key. The could add to the song, possibly detract from the song, or just make it different.

The singer also makes a difference. Two singers in the same key will have a different feel. With a different singer, the song may be helped by singing in a different key then the original.

Whatever suits the song. If it sounds good it is good.

:thu:

[remi8765@aol.co]

listen to this

[WowieZowie]

listen to this


So, Remi, I am kinda confused. If that was you, it sounds nice. But, how is that a comment on the key of a song?

[careful now]

So, Remi, I am kinda confused. If that was you, it sounds nice. But, how is that a comment on the key of a song?

remi seems to periodically post this, even when it makes no sense.

i am calling "spam" on this one.

[WowieZowie]

remi seems to periodically post this, even when it makes no sense.

i am calling "spam" on this one.

Thank you.

That is kinda interesting spam. Even that, I don't really get. :eek:

Maybe it is meant to get us to post karaoke files at that site huh?

Interesting.

Is it always the same song and voice?

[dr5euss]

I saw the Eagles live a few months back they did one song about a tone and a half lower than the CD, I must admit I didn't notice at the time.

If you can't sing it in the original key, then you should change the key. Also...I don't see why a key shouldn't be changed as part of a cover, because the whole idea of the cover is to breathe new life into the song or approach it from a different angle.

[careful now]

Thank you.

That is kinda interesting spam. Even that, I don't really get. :eek:

Maybe it is meant to get us to post karaoke files at that site huh?

Interesting.

Is it always the same song and voice?

it varies between two different songs on the karaoke site from the same person, and sometimes a bad (sorry, i call them like i see them) youtube video of someone singing a chili peppers song along with the "rock band" videogame.

you cannot hear the singer in the video very much, only the original chili peppers track, so it is a waste of bandwidth. what i can hear sounds very off-key. :facepalm:

[SevenString]

Here is a video I did about my thoughts on this very subject:

Wy3Wi9hYwAo

[WowieZowie]

I saw the Eagles live a few months back they did one song about a tone and a half lower than the CD, I must admit I didn't notice at the time.

If you can't sing it in the original key, then you should change the key. Also...I don't see why a key shouldn't be changed as part of a cover, because the whole idea of the cover is to breathe new life into the song or approach it from a different angle.

I think that your comments are cool. And, they make sense. People should sing in a key that fits their voice. And, breathing new life into a tune is always cool to me, since I am more of a jazz singer than anything. Therefore, doing a standard in my style is very important.

But you really have not commented on what this thread is about. It is not about whether or not a song should be done in this key or that key.

The point of the thread is, "does a key actually help to bring across a feeling?" Is the "Feeling" different if a song is done in A as apposed to B?

Now, you may not believe that it is your job as a singer to evoke a feeling. And that is fine. We all have different beliefs. I feel that you have to be very aware of the key, as it relates to the feeling you are trying to evoke. The song bounces differently in this key, rather than that key. Some people will not understand what I am talking about. To them, it is just a numerical raising or lower of the pitch, and it has no bearing on "feelings" that a listener experiences. Well, I really can't explain myself to them. There will be some people in this forum who perhaps can relate to what I am saying.

Let me ask this, "why do people talk in a high pitched voice when they talk to babies? And animals that they love for that matter?"

I say they do it because they know that these notes will help to bring across a feeling in the person, or animal that they are communicating with. I believe that key does matter.

[Dr.Innovation]

If you had a song that was recorded in the key of A, would the feeling, meaning, implications change if it was played in B?

I say yes. I believe that keys actually have meaning to us on some level.

Therefore, singing a song in a particular key can have an impact on the feelings that you are trying to evoke.

This has many implications. And the idea of increasing one's range, then becomes an important issue.

One last thing, did you know that during football games, that when the crowd is cheering, there is a note that all crowds ascend to? (unsure what it is off the top of my head.) In my opinion, this is because notes actually do have meaning. Simple notes have meaning. Keys have meaning in our lives.

Marv Albert says: YES

They are different, whether they are a lower or higher octave and the key makes all the difference. I don't think (as examples) Johnny Cash's version of Hurt or Georgia by Ray Charles would have had the same impact had they chosen to sing in different keys.

[flames.33]

different keys mean different sounds/frequencys like in comparison .....a to d play one and just stum then play the other......they bth sortta give ya the samevibe then play 2 minors .....they giva ya a sadish vibe...it has to deo with frequencys

[Dr.Innovation]

different keys mean different sounds/frequencys like in comparison .....a to d play one and just stum then play the other......they bth sortta give ya the samevibe then play 2 minors .....they giva ya a sadish vibe...it has to deo with frequencys

Did you type that with one hand?:p

[careful now]

Did you type that with one hand?:p

you are confusing this with open jam. :facepalm:


:lol:

[Dr.Innovation]

you are confusing this with open jam. :facepalm:


:lol:

I'm sorry about that.
ON topic: I like your voice.

Could you add some lyrics to this:

mp3 format
http://www.quickfilepost.com/downloa...6d48651dc9b34e

Or Wav Format:
http://www.quickfilepost.com/downloa...853f84f8638a08

Please.....
__________________

[cherri]

It's part of a trilogy, a musical trilogy I'm working on in D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find. People weep instantly when they hear it, and I don't know why. ~~~Nigel Tufnel

:poke:

[careful now]

I'm sorry about that.
ON topic: I like your voice.

Could you add some lyrics to this:

mp3 format
http://www.quickfilepost.com/downloa...6d48651dc9b34e

Or Wav Format:
http://www.quickfilepost.com/downloa...853f84f8638a08

Please.....
__________________


you might be confusing me with someone else. i am a keyboard player, not a singer. i just have a lot of opinions about singers. you can tell by my signature. :lol:

[gbcmusicguy]

But you really have not commented on what this thread is about. It is not about whether or not a song should be done in this key or that key.

The point of the thread is, "does a key actually help to bring across a feeling?" Is the "Feeling" different if a song is done in A as apposed to B?




Hello all,
I'm not usually in this forum, I'm usually over in the recording forum trying to pick up ideas and tips. But, I couldn't help but notice this debate and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

I'm not a trained singer or anything like that. I've never had any kind of lessons or formal voice work, so I may be talking to a group of people that are totally out of my league. If so, sorry. I do sing quite a bit in my local church ( about 3-5 times a month ), solos, duets, and I sing bass in a quartet. I know, the stereotype probably says I'm a tone deaf person who just likes to "make a joyful noise". While there may be some that applies to, I like to think that's not me.

Anyway, I feel like this thread is about both...the fact that a key does make a difference as to the feeling the song gives, and the fact that songs should be sung in a certain key. To me, the two meet at the strongest part of the vocalist's range. In other words, the feeling of a song can be expressed more by the vocalist in the part of their range where they have the most control and strength. In that part of their range they can control dynamics better, breathing better, facial expression better (for live singing), and all other aspects of the music that bring forth feeling. So the actual key of the song, to me, is less important than the way the key fits the singer. I have quite a few songs that I sing that I've had our pianist lower to a different key for me. Usually the reason is I like the song, but the key it's in is not for a low voice. Sometimes though, I'll change the key of a song lower because I really feel like I can get the message of that song across better to the listener in that key. Yeah, I may be able to hit those higher notes here or there, but does the song lose it's momentum (feeling) there because I'm not able to express them the way I could if they were lower and I had more control?
So, I guess I say all that to say, I agree, key does matter. But, I think it matters on more levels than just what the key signature says on the paper.

Just an opinion.

[WowieZowie]

So, I guess I say all that to say, I agree, key does matter. But, I think it matters on more levels than just what the key signature says on the paper.

Just an opinion.

You have a valid point. But I think that it is a similar point that others have made. "Sing the song in the key that fits your voice" has been stated.

I believe that on some level, we as humans, and perhaps the whole animal world hears notes, and these notes mean something. Simply as notes, they mean something. So, when you sing a song in a particular key, it means something to our psyche.

And, perhaps rather than it just being a fact that you choose a key that better fits your voice, and thus you are able to express yourself better, it might also be that another key, not in your range, may actually cause you to have stronger feelings. Even though you can't sing it, when you hear another voice sing the song in that key, it quite simply breaks your heart, or brings greater joy than you have ever felt after hearing the song.

[gbcmusicguy]

Even though you can't sing it, when you hear another voice sing the song in that key, it quite simply breaks your heart, or brings greater joy than you have ever felt after hearing the song.

I see your point, and I have to say I agree. I have seen it happen...or I guess I should say it's happened to me before. In the realm of conservative gospel music there are "old favorites" or "benchmark songs", as with any genre, that people always like to sing. I can think of more than one occasion where someone has sang a song that I've maybe heard a hundred times previously, but that person's rendition, on that particular day, made the hair on my neck stand up. Mostly because of the change of key and therefore change of feeling given off. Maybe it was sung by a low alto instead of a soprano, or whatever.

I've often tried to explain to people how a key change(during/as part of the song), IMHO, makes or breaks a song. It takes a song from standard, ho-hum, to the level of giving you chills. Much of that I think is due to the fact that the new key evokes new/different feelings in the listener that they didn't expect or that completely changes there perception of the song.

I'm not sure I communicated that correctly, but in my mind it fits this discussion.....in that, even within a song, shifting to a different key makes a difference.

[micmike]

I had a really clear experience of this recently where I had a song with a chorus in Dm (I think) and my voice was hanging up around E to G. But it was straining. A full octave lower is no good solution so I tried down-tuning to D standard, bringing the chorus down to Cm.

Now vocally this sounded rich and smooth and worked really well acoustically. But when we rocked it up it lost all it's punch.

BUT, at an Eb tuning, bringing the chorus key to C#m, my voice was pushing hard enough to sound rockin, but not strainy.

One semi-tone down made heaps of difference!!!

However I still feel everything else sounded better in standard tuning.... Argh!

[e021708]

Pat Boone - Tutti Frutti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=314RUS0Oqkc


Little Richard - Tutti Frutti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqQ1QNNk2Us


big difference. i think,,,:facepalm:

[Jimbroni]

Keys re: psyche.
I think it goes back to roots of western music, and opera. Keys sigs were setup to establish ideas. C = neutrality (no sharps/flats), G a little happier, F a little sadder. The more sharps the happier/brighter, the more flats the opposite. Characters in Opera would have theme music, but as the story changed and complexities arose, they shift the key signature or switch to a relative minor or major. For instance, in Faust when the Devil was parading around trying to seduce people, they would transpose his theme music, which was a minor in a dark sig, into a major key. Many good pop song writer still use these concepts even if they don't know it, Its sort of imbred into us from tradition. Key sigs all have an emotional center. And truly good songs shift the key to convey the emotion in the lyrics.

That said, if you are singing a tune and can't do it in the original key, its best to shift it to your comfort space.

But I will say something about Eb, I think a lot people tune down to this because of tradition. Some think it was done to help singers, but I wonder. Eb is really dark 3 flats in major, 6 flats in minor. Which if you're singing the blues is perfect, and given a lot of rock and pop is influenced/derived from the blues it has become a sort of natural sound in peoples heads. Singers sing a lot from sound memory, notes in their head. A min, G maj, Eb are all common in most music, and I think this has a lot to do with why a lot singer choose to transpose. Its because those scales are so imbedded in their heads, its hard to deviate.

[Consume]

If you had a song that was recorded in the key of A, would the feeling, meaning, implications change if it was played in B?

I say yes. I believe that keys actually have meaning to us on some level.

Therefore, singing a song in a particular key can have an impact on the feelings that you are trying to evoke.

This has many implications. And the idea of increasing one's range, then becomes an important issue.

One last thing, did you know that during football games, that when the crowd is cheering, there is a note that all crowds ascend to? (unsure what it is off the top of my head.) In my opinion, this is because notes actually do have meaning. Simple notes have meaning. Keys have meaning in our lives.


I believe that Key of a song most definitely matters.
Think about this: Harmonics on an stringed instrument do not sound the same when you tune it to a different pitch than the instrument was designed to be pitched - for example, if you drop the tuning, the harmonics simply do not have the same bell like timbre that they would if the instrument was pitched at A440.

I whole-heartedly agree that notes have meaning. The Earth Vibrates at what is called the Schumann resonance point, which is 7.83hz. On one of the Freemason's websites, there was an amazing dissertation on the use of Pythagorean math in music. Any Tool fans who are musicians would be idiots not to read up on it. (I was doing research on this very subject for songwriting purposes about 5 years ago when I ran across the article I'm talking about. My theory was that certain keys and note structures effect the human condition more than others, and that you could find a universal mathematical-musical theme that ran through major hits in popular music, and if you were to utilize those in your music, you would be more likely to have songs that were universally accepted as potential hits. I know, everybody thought it was nuts, but I still think it is true and a friend who is a scientist said he believes I am correct in this.)



:thu:

[daddymack]

hmmm...so if your premise is correct, then there would only be one key in which to sing a song, and people who's range that song doesn't fall in can't sing that song?
Sorry, that's nonsense.
We re-key songs all the time, and honestly, you would never know.

[WowieZowie]

Keys re: psyche.
I think it goes back to roots of western music, and opera. Keys sigs were setup to establish ideas. C = neutrality (no sharps/flats), G a little happier, F a little sadder. The more sharps the happier/brighter, the more flats the opposite. Characters in Opera would have theme music, but as the story changed and complexities arose, they shift the key signature or switch to a relative minor or major. For instance, in Faust when the Devil was parading around trying to seduce people, they would transpose his theme music, which was a minor in a dark sig, into a major key. Many good pop song writer still use these concepts even if they don't know it, Its sort of imbred into us from tradition. Key sigs all have an emotional center. And truly good songs shift the key to convey the emotion in the lyrics.

That said, if you are singing a tune and can't do it in the original key, its best to shift it to your comfort space.

But I will say something about Eb, I think a lot people tune down to this because of tradition. Some think it was done to help singers, but I wonder. Eb is really dark 3 flats in major, 6 flats in minor. Which if you're singing the blues is perfect, and given a lot of rock and pop is influenced/derived from the blues it has become a sort of natural sound in peoples heads. Singers sing a lot from sound memory, notes in their head. A min, G maj, Eb are all common in most music, and I think this has a lot to do with why a lot singer choose to transpose. Its because those scales are so imbedded in their heads, its hard to deviate.

This is what I am talking about. Well, everything except the sharps and flats. Are they not enharmonic, and thus simply an issue of semantics?

But I agree with much of what you have written. You have linked the psych in with the key, and to me this really is an issue. Certainly theme music proves this point. And, I really like what you said about Eb. Very interesting to me. When I tune down, it is easier for some tunes, true. But, sometimes the feeling is lost. Like no lemon on my fish. Me no like as much.

[WowieZowie]

I believe that Key of a song most definitely matters.
Think about this: Harmonics on an stringed instrument do not sound the same when you tune it to a different pitch than the instrument was designed to be pitched - for example, if you drop the tuning, the harmonics simply do not have the same bell like timbre that they would if the instrument was pitched at A440.

I whole-heartedly agree that notes have meaning. The Earth Vibrates at what is called the Schumann resonance point, which is 7.83hz. On one of the Freemason's websites, there was an amazing dissertation on the use of Pythagorean math in music. Any Tool fans who are musicians would be idiots not to read up on it. (I was doing research on this very subject for songwriting purposes about 5 years ago when I ran across the article I'm talking about. My theory was that certain keys and note structures effect the human condition more than others, and that you could find a universal mathematical-musical theme that ran through major hits in popular music, and if you were to utilize those in your music, you would be more likely to have songs that were universally accepted as potential hits. I know, everybody thought it was nuts, but I still think it is true and a friend who is a scientist said he believes I am correct in this.)



:thu:

Cool. You guys got it. I figured that there was a bunch of thesis' on this somewhere.

Thanks for what you know.

[Jimbroni]

This is what I am talking about. Well, everything except the sharps and flats. Are they not enharmonic, and thus simply an issue of semantics?



Well like the lemon on your fish, every note has a personality, a color. It seems like you agree with that notion. Knowing that is the key to understanding what I was saying about sharps and flats. However, thats not the end of it, personalities are not fixed, they react differently in different contexts. Take F# in the context of G major, it combines with the rest of the scale to create a happier key. Now take that F# and turn it into Gb via Gb maj or Eb min, you now have your sadder blues key.

Now back to your lemon, on fish its good. But doesn't taste anything like the lemon in your iced tea, or better yet Fatush salad. I don't think that lemon would work in a lasagna. If the lemon's personality were always fixed, the lemon would always taste good no matter the circumstance, but we know this isn't true. Context.


FWIW. These ideas aren't mine, they came from a music appreciation course I took that focussed on studying opera.

Either way, interesting thread.

[Jersey Jack]

I think the confusion arises from the fact that keys are only significant in their relationship with one another, not inherently. That is, in a given musical context the introduction of a different key has an undeniable effect, but to suggest that Eb is inherently sadder than D# seems wrong--or even to suggest that F is sadder than G, etc.

That said, changing to different modes (if that's the correct word) will always have a certain impact--all minor keys are sadder, all minor 7ths bluesier, all major 7ths jazzier, etc. But there is no difference (in inherent mood) between Eb minor and D# minor.

[WowieZowie]

Well like the lemon on your fish, every note has a personality, a color. It seems like you agree with that notion. Knowing that is the key to understanding what I was saying about sharps and flats.

Well, you are certainly making it a lot more clear. Awesome.

However, thats not the end of it, personalities are not fixed, they react differently in different contexts. Take F# in the context of G major, it combines with the rest of the scale to create a happier key. Now take that F# and turn it into Gb via Gb maj or Eb min, you now have your sadder blues key.

You seem to use the term "personalities" as a replacement for notes in a scale, but I can't get away from the fact that the sentence could seemingly be used to describe living beings also. Did you mean to offer such open interpretation? It is very cool.

I love what you have said. So well put. And, it relates to so many things in life. It is as if the music that we play runs much deeper into our souls than we give credit. Or, that it is a language that transcends geographical boundaries, color, animal type, etc. This is exactly what I was wondering about. Thank you so much.

Now back to your lemon, on fish its good. But doesn't taste anything like the lemon in your iced tea, or better yet Fatush salad. I don't think that lemon would work in a lasagna. If the lemon's personality were always fixed, the lemon would always taste good no matter the circumstance, but we know this isn't true. Context.

Nicely done. Very "elegant" I think is the term.

FWIW. These ideas aren't mine, they came from a music appreciation course I took that focussed on studying opera.

Well, you understood them enough to be able to teach them, at least to some degree here. Very impressive.

[WowieZowie]

I think the confusion arises from the fact that keys are only significant in their relationship with one another, not inherently. That is, in a given musical context the introduction of a different key has an undeniable effect, but to suggest that Eb is inherently sadder than D# seems wrong--or even to suggest that F is sadder than G, etc.

That said, changing to different modes (if that's the correct word) will always have a certain impact--all minor keys are sadder, all minor 7ths bluesier, all major 7ths jazzier, etc. But there is no difference (in inherent mood) between Eb minor and D# minor.

I would respectfully disagree.

I think that even within a note, and even within the context of the note, as it fits within a key, there is a ton of room for "the expression" of that note. So, say you sing as a baritone. Although I feel that your voice will inherently have a darkness to it, you can choose to sing in a happy way. The way you enter a note, timing, the way you leave the note. And probably a million different things that you can do to express a feeling.

But, it may be a little more difficult for a baritone to express a joyous feeling vocally, than a little 9 year old girl, with a very high sweet voice. I am not saying that it is not done all the time in life. It is. Of course. But there seems to be something about the note itself that actually has standing in the universe. The note has some meaning, as far as I am concerned that is.

[Consume]

But there is no difference (in inherent mood) between Eb minor and D# minor.

Well, except for perspective. LOL
Since one is used for ascending and the other for descending....which I think is kind of stupid, but I wasn't around when the powers that be established the theory and writing of music.


:p

[WowieZowie]

Well, except for perspective. LOL
Since one is used for ascending and the other for descending....which I think is kind of stupid, but I wasn't around when the powers that be established the theory and writing of music.


:p

I would imagine that this aspect of music theory came from a more antiquated time, when direction was more important to the explanation.

In other words, perhaps they were just telling each other, "well, from this part of the song, we then go up up up till we get to this sound." And the direction was up. Then, during the next breakthrough in musical notation, what ever that was, still encorporated this idea of direction, "up up up" and so ascending was #, and descending was flat. Then, at another point in the history of notation, someone said, "ok, only use flats or sharps in a song, and not both!" And so, we are where we are.

Just my take on it. I could be totally wrong.

[Jersey Jack]

I would respectfully disagree.

I think that even within a note, and even within the context of the note, as it fits within a key, there is a ton of room for "the expression" of that note. So, say you sing as a baritone. Although I feel that your voice will inherently have a darkness to it, you can choose to sing in a happy way. The way you enter a note, timing, the way you leave the note. And probably a million different things that you can do to express a feeling.

But, it may be a little more difficult for a baritone to express a joyous feeling vocally, than a little 9 year old girl, with a very high sweet voice. I am not saying that it is not done all the time in life. It is. Of course. But there seems to be something about the note itself that actually has standing in the universe. The note has some meaning, as far as I am concerned that is.

Fair enough, but it seems to me that you're really talking about pitch here, not key. A deeper voice will always sound more serious than a lighter, higher voice. Hence a song in G sung by a baritone will sound more profound, perhaps, than a song in G sung by a soprano. The true test of the inherent key value theory, however, would be to compare a baritone singing in F with a baritone singing in G. The inherent key value theory (as expressed by the poster above) would posit that F (one flat) is inherently a sadder or darker key than G (one sharp). This is the part I don't buy.

As another poster said above, vocalists normally shift keys around to suit their vocal ranges. I don't believe anyone can tell the difference--unless they have perfect pitch and are specifically listening for a difference.

Now word has it that Pete Seeger was pissed at Bruce Springsteen for taking the old spiritual "Oh, Mary Don't You Weep" and shifting it from a major to a minor key. This kind of change is important, and instantly recognizable; he may well have shifted the key center at the same time but no one would have noticed that!

Finally, is there even a proper key for a song like this? It's one thing to feel that a Beatles song "belongs" in a certain key because the Beatles version is permanently tattooed on our brains (though I would disagree that it in fact belongs there), but what about "Amazing Grace" or "Greensleeves"?

[Jimbroni]

I think the confusion arises from the fact that keys are only significant in their relationship with one another, not inherently. That is, in a given musical context the introduction of a different key has an undeniable effect, but to suggest that Eb is inherently sadder than D# seems wrong--or even to suggest that F is sadder than G, etc.

That said, changing to different modes (if that's the correct word) will always have a certain impact--all minor keys are sadder, all minor 7ths bluesier, all major 7ths jazzier, etc. But there is no difference (in inherent mood) between Eb minor and D# minor.

Well its obvious we disagree based on my previous comments.

Let me just say that many who learn perfect pitch do so, by tuning into the color of a note. This helps them catalog the pitches into memory. Somehow. I don't have perfect pitch, but have tried some tutorials and this is what they were trying accomplish.

For me, if I play a G chord on the piano it makes me feel this sense of rejoice. The feeling of being in church singing the glory of god. F makes me feel melancholy. I think there is legitimate reason, that a lot of blue grass and mountain music and banjos are in G. And a lot of soul, blues is in F and Eb. And A lot of Funky jazz in A min.

I do agree with what you said about the intervals. However, I don't agree that minor chords are always sadder. They are darker than their relative majors but to me its not sadder. This might be semantics though.
However, Bb maj is sadder than Eminor (which is evil and exciting) and A minor (which is like the red light district). I can see where you could say Bb's relative minor G is sadder, but I tend to think of it as more on the dark side, not necessarily sadder but more sinister.

[Jimbroni]

Fair enough, but it seems to me that you're really talking about pitch here, not key. A deeper voice will always sound more serious than a lighter, higher voice. Hence a song in G sung by a baritone will sound more profound, perhaps, than a song in G sung by a soprano. The true test of the inherent key value theory, however, would be to compare a baritone singing in F with a baritone singing in G. The inherent key value theory (as expressed by the poster above) would posit that F (one flat) is inherently a sadder or darker key than G (one sharp). This is the part I don't buy.

As another poster said above, vocalists normally shift keys around to suit their vocal ranges. I don't believe anyone can tell the difference--unless they have perfect pitch and are specifically listening for a difference.

Now word has it that Pete Seeger was pissed at Bruce Springsteen for taking the old spiritual "Oh, Mary Don't You Weep" and shifting it from a major to a minor key. This kind of change is important, and instantly recognizable; he may well have shifted the key center at the same time but no one would have noticed that!

Finally, is there even a proper key for a song like this? It's one thing to feel that a Beatles song "belongs" in a certain key because the Beatles version is permanently tattooed on our brains (though I would disagree that it in fact belongs there), but what about "Amazing Grace" or "Greensleeves"?

Amazing Grace is a great example. Amazing Grace can sound hopeful and rejoiceful, or it can be haunting and melancholy. This song has been done a lot of different ways, and the choice of key center has a major impact on how it makes you feel, IMO.

All I can say, if you don't believe me, is pick up an instrument. Play a G chord, don't just listen, ask yourself how do you feel. Then play a F chord and do the same. If you don't feel the difference, so be it. I certainly do.

You can even take one step further. Play a Blues progression I IV V first in G, then clear your head and play it in F. To me there is no question, that the G blues will sound more like that bouncing, dancing blues. And the F will be that "soul crying out" blues.

[WowieZowie]

Perhaps the colors of notes best taps into this discussion.

I certainly see colors with chords that I play.

Not sure why. I see A as Red. D is Dark Blue (cold). C is green (cool also). F is yellow. G is brown. E is also red, so I am kinda confused here. I haven't given it a ton of work. I just know I see and feel them.

Actually, too much of one sound can really get me down. Emotionally down.

B is light blue.

Weird to some.

Not to me.

[freetime]

I think we can all agree. If you can't do it in the original key then just change it :thu:

[Jimbroni]

Perhaps the colors of notes best taps into this discussion.

I certainly see colors with chords that I play.

Not sure why. I see A as Red. D is Dark Blue (cold). C is green (cool also). F is yellow. G is brown. E is also red, so I am kinda confused here. I haven't given it a ton of work. I just know I see and feel them.

Actually, too much of one sound can really get me down. Emotionally down.

B is light blue.

Weird to some.

Not to me.

You may or may not know this but there is scientific term for this: Synesthesia.

Look it up, you'll find you're not alone. Some people have the reverse of your condition, they hear music when they look at colors or paintings. Very cool.

[Jimbroni]

I think we can all agree. If you can't do it in the original key then just change it :thu:

Yeah. I'm not trying convince to anybody to not transpose songs into other keys. I was just trying put my 2 pennies on the OP's initial question regarding his sensitivity to certain tunes not feeling right in different keys. I was focusing on the traditions of music that may be instilled in us, but since we now know he's synesthetic. It makes sense why he is sensitive to this. For me its the emotional displacement for him it could be his color pallete is all off.

[Jimbroni]

You may or may not know this but there is scientific term for this: Synesthesia.

Look it up, you'll find you're not alone. Some people have the reverse of your condition, they hear music when they look at colors or paintings. Very cool.

BTW. When I mentioned color I wasn't literally talking about seeing colors, I was talking about the tonal coloration of certain notes and chords. Similar to how a tube amp will color the signal of an electric guitar. But now that I think about it, I maybe guilty of projecting my own experiences onto others. I sense emotion when I hear musical notes, which gives me a tangible element to grasp upon when cataloging sounds. This may not be true for everyone.

[WowieZowie]

You may or may not know this but there is scientific term for this: Synesthesia.

Look it up, you'll find you're not alone. Some people have the reverse of your condition, they hear music when they look at colors or paintings. Very cool.

Perhaps "see" is not an accurate word for what it is that happens with me. Chords feel, taste and look a certain way to me. Certainly, they sound a certain way. They rumble in a certain part of my body when I play them. Laugh if you will. It really makes no matter. When you are an artist, you tend to be more sensitive toward surroundings. At least I do.

So I don't see red for A. But, there is a relationship somehow. Heck, it could be from when I was a little baby and they gave me one of those little xylophone, with the colored keys. Little wooden mallet things. Could be that. I know that I relate chords, and not just notes, however.

But thanks for diagnosing me. You are a very intelligent person. I will start taking some meds. Perhaps you could prescribe?


I think that many things are linked. I think that perhaps that is what the whole thread is really about. Relationships. That things are not simply compartmentalized. That these notes have meaning within the larger context of life.

The thread has nothing at all to do with transposing. It is funny how some people grab that potato and run with it. I guess that there is a lot of pride for some to say that they do it in the original key. I play jazz, so it has absolutely no bearing on me in that regard. The most important aspect is whether or not the feelings that I want to express, are brought to forth. And I think that as artists, we generally speaking, strive for this.

For some, there is competition. Heck, I hear about "how high can you sing" all the time. It is not really important in terms of bringing forth a feeling. Because as I stated, there are many aspects of singing that help to bring forth a feeling. I simply wanted to explore the impact of key, and if it mattered a lot, a little, etc.

[Jersey Jack]

Well, that's cool if you find that different keys move you in different ways. It's always possible that the audience will respond in similar ways, even if they are not aware of it.

But to play devil's advocate for a moment (I can't help it, even though I am a spiritual guy and I'd genuinely like to believe that there's something to this) there's an easy way to test your experience: Have someone play random notes/chords/songs and see if you can identify the key. If a given key makes you associate with a color or an attitude, you should be able to identify the response and name the key, no?

I'm serious about this--I'd be curious to know whether such responses are in some way related to perfect pitch. I wonder if everyone who has perfect pitch has similar associations?

[Jimbroni]

Well, that's cool if you find that different keys move you in different ways. It's always possible that the audience will respond in similar ways, even if they are not aware of it.

But to play devil's advocate for a moment (I can't help it, even though I am a spiritual guy and I'd genuinely like to believe that there's something to this) there's an easy way to test your experience: Have someone play random notes/chords/songs and see if you can identify the key. If a given key makes you associate with a color or an attitude, you should be able to identify the response and name the key, no?

I'm serious about this--I'd be curious to know whether such responses are in some way related to perfect pitch. I wonder if everyone who has perfect pitch has similar associations?

Ahh the ole double blind test. Good Idea.

My suspicions are that I won't be as reliable when hearing a guitar. However, on a piano these feelings are much stronger. Odd thing is I'm primarily a bass player.

As far as people with perfect pitch, I suspect they make associations, but not similar to my own.

Either way its good test, I'll try it.

[Jimbroni]

Perhaps "see" is not an accurate word for what it is that happens with me. Chords feel, taste and look a certain way to me. Certainly, they sound a certain way. They rumble in a certain part of my body when I play them. Laugh if you will. It really makes no matter. When you are an artist, you tend to be more sensitive toward surroundings. At least I do.

So I don't see red for A. But, there is a relationship somehow. Heck, it could be from when I was a little baby and they gave me one of those little xylophone, with the colored keys. Little wooden mallet things. Could be that. I know that I relate chords, and not just notes, however.

But thanks for diagnosing me. You are a very intelligent person. I will start taking some meds. Perhaps you could prescribe?


I think that many things are linked. I think that perhaps that is what the whole thread is really about. Relationships. That things are not simply compartmentalized. That these notes have meaning within the larger context of life.

The thread has nothing at all to do with transposing. It is funny how some people grab that potato and run with it. I guess that there is a lot of pride for some to say that they do it in the original key. I play jazz, so it has absolutely no bearing on me in that regard. The most important aspect is whether or not the feelings that I want to express, are brought to forth. And I think that as artists, we generally speaking, strive for this.

For some, there is competition. Heck, I hear about "how high can you sing" all the time. It is not really important in terms of bringing forth a feeling. Because as I stated, there are many aspects of singing that help to bring forth a feeling. I simply wanted to explore the impact of key, and if it mattered a lot, a little, etc.


I'm down with the "rumbling in the body" my primary instrument is bass afterall.
The strange thing is when I play piano, I feel more cerebral emotions. Suspense, fear, holiness, sadness. But when I play bass, I feel more primal. Sexual drive, aggression, athletic prowess(like I'm a basketball hero), desire for different things (maybe dancing, maybe kissing, maybe strutting around like mick jagger, etc.).

Well I do think the key has on impact, on the feeling of a lyric. However, I think this feeling maybe different to each singer, but I suspect the audience can pick up on that feeling, whether audibly or visually or both.

[WowieZowie]

Well, that's cool if you find that different keys move you in different ways. It's always possible that the audience will respond in similar ways, even if they are not aware of it.

But to play devil's advocate for a moment (I can't help it, even though I am a spiritual guy and I'd genuinely like to believe that there's something to this) there's an easy way to test your experience: Have someone play random notes/chords/songs and see if you can identify the key. If a given key makes you associate with a color or an attitude, you should be able to identify the response and name the key, no?

I'm serious about this--I'd be curious to know whether such responses are in some way related to perfect pitch. I wonder if everyone who has perfect pitch has similar associations?


Well, I do know when a song is not played in the key that it was played in when it gave me a certain emotion. So, if you gave me the song in several keys, I would be able to pick which one is the one that moved me in a certain way. We would probably simplify this and say, "which one is the one you remember?" And you could say, "Well, that is just because he remembers good, or what ever." But, I am saying that key colors that feeling.

I may have a hard time telling you the key. I bet I could get good at this if I wanted, however. The keys just say different things to me.

I can see how this post could be seen as me acting sanctimonious or something. I am not meaning to do that. It is something that I have noticed, and that I feel. I am not trying to compete with you dude.

If you don't feel it, that is cool. I can't force you to feel it. And it is cool that key is simply a place setting for you. Break out the capo, and things are all relative.

I simply disagree.

And trust me, I break out the capo a lot.

[SpaceNorman]

You have a valid point. But I think that it is a similar point that others have made. "Sing the song in the key that fits your voice" has been stated.

I believe that on some level, we as humans, and perhaps the whole animal world hears notes, and these notes mean something. Simply as notes, they mean something. So, when you sing a song in a particular key, it means something to our psyche.

And, perhaps rather than it just being a fact that you choose a key that better fits your voice, and thus you are able to express yourself better, it might also be that another key, not in your range, may actually cause you to have stronger feelings. Even though you can't sing it, when you hear another voice sing the song in that key, it quite simply breaks your heart, or brings greater joy than you have ever felt after hearing the song.

I suspect the answer to your question really depends on the ears of the people involved - be that the singer's ears, the band's ears and/or the audience's ears. At the crux of the issue is the question of relative pitch versus "perfect" pitch.

I've worked with folks who transpose tunes to keys that place the vocal range where it's most comfortable for the singer - and have no problem with it. They deliver the tune with all the feeling they can muster and don't have any sense that the tune is somehow different than the original.

I've worked with others who hear the first couple of notes of a tune and know immediately when a song is being played in a key different from the original. One drummer/vocalist I work with simply cannot sing many tunes in a transposed key - even though it puts the song in the "sweet spot" of his vocal range. Put simply - he can't get past the internal conflict he hears when the song is played in anything besides the original key.

If you're somebody who's sense of relative pitch is dominate - then transposing isn't a problem. If you're somebody who's sense of perfect pitch is dominate - then transposed a tune will likely grate on your ear.

[WowieZowie]

I suspect the answer to your question really depends on the ears of the people involved - be that the singer's ears, the band's ears and/or the audience's ears. At the crux of the issue is the question of relative pitch versus "perfect" pitch.

I've worked with folks who transpose tunes to keys that place the vocal range where it's most comfortable for the singer - and have no problem with it. They deliver the tune with all the feeling they can muster and don't have any sense that the tune is somehow different than the original.

I've worked with others who hear the first couple of notes of a tune and know immediately when a song is being played in a key different from the original. One drummer/vocalist I work with simply cannot sing many tunes in a transposed key - even though it puts the song in the "sweet spot" of his vocal range. Put simply - he can't get past the internal conflict he hears when the song is played in anything besides the original key.

If you're somebody who's sense of relative pitch is dominate - then transposing isn't a problem. If you're somebody who's sense of perfect pitch is dominate - then transposed a tune will likely grate on your ear.

I am actually thinking that an Em chord means something different to the listener, than a Dm chord. That in the universe, the pitch means something. Like it means happiness, or sadness, or something. I know, I know. I kinda seems out there. But hey, your name is space Norman, and mine is Wowie Zowie, so maybe the discussion it right on track.

So, it is less about anything "grating" on someone. (although that could happen if a person really knew that Dm meant something way different than Em and the song was lying because of the key.)

It was just a thought that I had. I believe that there is a deeper meaning. For vocalists especially, by the way. Other musicians, such as yourself probably have to use much more difficult hand positions when transposing, and this is the main issue. But, for a vocalist, there is a "meaning" part that is also at hand.

[WynnD]

My Wife says yes it does. (She's not a musician.)
I don't think moving a key a couple of steps is a big deal. (Been gigging for 35 years.) For those few people with perfect pitch, it might mean something.

[WowieZowie]

My Wife says yes it does. (She's not a musician.)
I don't think moving a key a couple of steps is a big deal. (Been gigging for 35 years.) For those few people with perfect pitch, it might mean something.

Does Am7 feel different to you than Dm7?

Even Am7 and Bm7 feel different to me. And I don't think that I have perfect pitch. I am not sure about this, however. If you ask me to sing a beatles tune, I will sing it in the original key. That does not constitute perfect pitch does it?

I agree with your wife.

Maybe it is just that simple. Some people feel this is true, and some don't. Emphasis on the feel part.

[splenditello]

i think i see what you're saying, a lot chords on the guitar sound different when the key is transposed, this is mostly because of the way that the chords are voice on guitar. piano and other zithers i don't think changing the key matters too much.

[WowieZowie]

i think i see what you're saying, a lot chords on the guitar sound different when the key is transposed, this is mostly because of the way that the chords are voice on guitar. piano and other zithers i don't think changing the key matters too much.

I have thought of this also. But Am7, and Bm7 really have a different feel to me. Even though the actual shape of the chord is the same.

[Jimbroni]

i think i see what you're saying, a lot chords on the guitar sound different when the key is transposed, this is mostly because of the way that the chords are voice on guitar. piano and other zithers i don't think changing the key matters too much.

I have to disagree. I notice this effect much more on a piano than on a guitar when strictly comparing moveable positions. Naturally alternate voicings have an impact as well, but a different one. It may be possible that on a piano it has to do with harmonics. Piano's have a lot more harmonic content than guitars. So thats my theory, but I don't know.

[WowieZowie]

I have to disagree. I notice this effect much more on a piano than on a guitar when strictly comparing moveable positions. Naturally alternate voicings have an impact as well, but a different one. It may be possible that on a piano it has to do with harmonics. Piano's have a lot more harmonic content than guitars. So thats my theory, but I don't know.

I took what he was saying like this. I can hear the what chord shapes are used for songs. Like if the player uses an open G shape chord, but with a capo, due to the way the the chord allows cliches, or even encourages cliches, you can tell that it is the open G shape chord.

[VengefulTikiGod]

You may or may not know this but there is scientific term for this: Synesthesia.

Look it up, you'll find you're not alone. Some people have the reverse of your condition, they hear music when they look at colors or paintings. Very cool.

I heard about that. I might be confusing it with something else, but aren't there only like, 50 people like that in the world? All those Discovery channel specials run together sometimes, haha

[WynnD]

Am vs Dm. To me there really isn't a difference. This is one of those things where how we perceive pitch makes a difference. I'm thinking that you probably hear things differently than I do. No reason that we should hear things exactly the same. People who are color blind frequently have different color blindness. My Father's was red/green. Didn't seem to affect his ability to tell stop lights. My younger Sister's is different from that. (Explains the odd clothes she wore as a teenager. We just thought she was weird.)

Being able to tell if an entire band is tuned flat or sharp can be useful, but it would drive me nuts. (Like I need help.)

This has been an interesting thread. Thanks for starting the discussion.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Does Am7 feel different to you than Dm7?

Even Am7 and Bm7 feel different to me. And I don't think that I have perfect pitch. I am not sure about this, however. If you ask me to sing a beatles tune, I will sing it in the original key. That does not constitute perfect pitch does it?

No, it just means your vocal range is pretty close to that of the original singer.

I agree with your wife.

Maybe it is just that simple. Some people feel this is true, and some don't. Emphasis on the feel part.

Me, I just sing a song wherever it fits into my vocal range...sometimes that'll be the original key, and sometimes it won't.

It's never been important to me or the audience, but, possibly, that's because I never make a point of doing any cover just like the original...perhaps for those who insist on re-creating the original tune, as exactly accurate as is humanly possible, it could be of greater importance.

Interesting subject, for sure! :thu:

[marcellis]

Does the key of a song matter?
If you had a song that was recorded in the key of A, would the feeling, meaning, implications change if it was played in B?

I say yes. I believe that keys actually have meaning to us on some level.

Therefore, singing a song in a particular key can have an impact on the feelings that you are trying to evoke.

This has many implications. And the idea of increasing one's range, then becomes an important issue.

One last thing, did you know that during football games, that when the crowd is cheering, there is a note that all crowds ascend to? (unsure what it is off the top of my head.) In my opinion, this is because notes actually do have meaning. Simple notes have meaning. Keys have meaning in our lives.

Would the feeling, meaning and implications of Hank Williams' "Lost Highway" be different in F than in A?

I say no. It may sound sound different in F.
But there are more important things than key that affect the
feeling, meaning and implications of a song.

I can see where different chords can evoke different emotional
responses. It's a physical thing.

But in a Hank Williams song or a Cole Porter song, or any
great song, there are more important things happening.

[Jimbroni]

I heard about that. I might be confusing it with something else, but aren't there only like, 50 people like that in the world? All those Discovery channel specials run together sometimes, haha

I don't know. I would think its more common than that. I know two people with synesthesia right here on this forum. Bruce Swedien and Boosh. It seems unlikely that if only 50 people had it in the world, I would know two of them.

[Jimbroni]

I took what he was saying like this. I can hear the what chord shapes are used for songs. Like if the player uses an open G shape chord, but with a capo, due to the way the the chord allows cliches, or even encourages cliches, you can tell that it is the open G shape chord.

I did too, but I must not have worded it properly.

[Jimbroni]

Would the feeling, meaning and implications of Hank Williams' "Lost Highway" be different in F than in A?

I say no. It may sound sound different in F.
But there are more important things than key that affect the
feeling, meaning and implications of a song.

I can see where different chords can evoke different emotional
responses. It's a physical thing.

But in a Hank Williams song or a Cole Porter song, or any
great song, there are more important things happening.

I can't argue with anything here. Certainly the emotion center of a key signature is only one small part of the bigger picture.

I definitely think it has an impact, but in the grand scheme of things, its better to perform the song with quality.

But I simply can't agree that there is no inherent difference between key signatures.

Am feels like funky soul jazz and Dm sounds melancholy and maybe classical.

"D minor is the saddest of all keys" - Nigel Tufnel :)