Chinese Celestions

[Maxferry]

...

[sunn 0)))]

they're really celestions, just made in china. you want real ones? get some old ones or buy the more expensive ones.

[Professor Tom]

Being a Brit I remember Celestions being pretty rubbish back in the day. I lost count of the blowups I had with Orange 4 x 12 cabinets. To be honest I always preferred American speakers like JBL, Altec, Electrovoice and way back Cerwin-Vega. I think Celestions are overated and way overpriced.

[wchua24]

are china made are bad stuff..?

[ermghoti II]

They're pretty much the same, but a lot of people were miffed when they went over to (much cheaper) Chinese labor, with no retail price adjustment.

[Professor Tom]

They're pretty much the same, but a lot of people were miffed when they went over to (much cheaper) Chinese labor, with no retail price adjustment.

VOX did pretty much the same with some of their range. My first ever post on HC was to criticise people for being shortsighted and buying Chinese whilst Brits and Americans were losing their jobs all over the place and I got slammed pretty heavily for it. Most people seemed to think it was better to have four cheap guitars than one good one, god I really wish that I had been wrong.

[Bruce Bennett]

They're pretty much the same, but a lot of people were miffed when they went over to (much cheaper) Chinese labor, with no retail price adjustment.

actually , there was a price adjustment.. but most retailers simply didn't bother to make the distiction between chinese and UK manufactured speakers.. some retailers knew.. but most never found out till the chinese mades were all over the market anyway.

this type thing happens all the time with products.. it's just one more symptom of the whole "overseas manufacturing shift" that , IMHO is only just getting started.

My warning to consumers now is .. know what your paying your hard earned money for,

and to those that live in America.
Buy American so that you AND your neighbor can continue to keep on buying the things we want and need, and so that your children will have a shot at the American Dream too, otherwise, they won't

The Wal-Mart mentality WILL kill America ..BECAUSE we are a consumer based, Capitalistic society. There is no political solution to our current economic crisis. no matter what the Washington DC "marketing dept." tells us. Folks have to have jobs that pay enough, and that can't happen if American manufacturers leave for cheaper labor.

NEVER send your money to your enemy, unless they are sending an EQUAL amount of their money back.

sorry for the rant,

[andrew_face]

i just use eminence good ole american product

[HeartfeltDawn]

actually , there was a price adjustment.. but most retailers simply didn't bother to make the distiction between chinese and UK manufactured speakers.. some retailers knew.. but most never found out till the chinese mades were all over the market anyway.

this type thing happens all the time with products.. it's just one more symptom of the whole "overseas manufacturing shift" that , IMHO is only just getting started.

My warning to consumers now is .. know what your paying your hard earned money for,

and to those that live in America.
Buy American so that you AND your neighbor can continue to keep on buying the things we want and need, and so that your children will have a shot at the American Dream too, otherwise, they won't

The Wal-Mart mentality WILL kill America ..BECAUSE we are a consumer based, Capitalistic society. There is no political solution to our current economic crisis. no matter what the Washington DC "marketing dept." tells us. Folks have to have jobs that pay enough, and that can't happen if American manufacturers leave for cheaper labor.

NEVER send your money to your enemy, unless they are sending an EQUAL amount of their money back.

sorry for the rant,



'Enemy'? Since when did America declare war on China?

The real enemy in America are those companies who choose to send jobs away from America so costs can be cut, profits increased and shareholders get a bigger dividend. America isn't being fucked by cheap Chinese labour: it's being fucked by American companies who exploit that labour. So quit all the 'enemy' bullshit and start looking closer to home.

[Bruce Bennett]

'Enemy'? Since when did America declare war on China?

The real enemy in America are those companies who choose to send jobs away from America so costs can be cut, profits increased and shareholders get a bigger dividend. America isn't being fucked by cheap Chinese labour: it's being fucked by American companies who exploit that labour. So quit all the 'enemy' bullshit and start looking closer to home.

april 1919... in a manner of speaking... with the formation of the league of nations.

Yes, I agree that Corporate America is "raiding the coffers" so to speak. ( the most recent AIG debacule is proof positive) and that WILL have to change.. how it will change I can't say, greed is a powerful enemy to combat indeed. that is part of the "dark side" of capitalizim.

you do realize that the main reason these companies do that is because you the consumer, keeps demanding cheaper priced goods instead of paying the established fair labor market price for quality made American goods that will keep americans working and able to pay their bills. and this rule applies to any country...
(humm. it's the very same reason why Celestion quietly moved the manufacture of their speakers from the UK to china which is what the OP was asking about)

and if you think that China is not an "enemy" then you really need to read the book of the 5 rings. and please, don't bother trying to prove your point with me until you have.

it matters not if it is War, as in Mortal Combat or War, as in Business,
it is still war period. and to know and understand your enemy is key.

China is still a communist state, and that means that they will always have an interest in furthering their system of goverment. just as We have. and it really doesn't mean that we will go to War ( mortal combat) over it but it does mean that both side WILL be vieing for any kind of "upper hand" that it can reasonable reach. be it economic or political or even just inn olympic medals. this IS the very simple nature of competition. so no matter what level you play this game on.. be it either kill or be killed or who has the largest amount of money/property or which goverment covers more parts of the earth..
it's still a competition. and you must play to win because the other guy is.

to think of any other country as not being a "potential enemy" at this very early and volital part of the game. is just niave'te.

China is only just now finding it's path to a more "modernized nation" and in doing so they will swing the balance of "power" (economic or military your choice) around to there side simply by shear numbers of population.

as the worlds first superpower, America has both a duty and an urgent need to help china, but without killing ourselves in the process. which in case you haven't noticed.. the current economic crisis has the potential to do.

what will you do if your job is gone tomorrow? do you understand what it means to have a job that makes 6 figures and then have it taken away from you? with no recourse or prospects for another job of similar pay?

please take no offense, but these forums are chock full of pre-teens and teenagers that have no clues about how the world really works. and I find it very disturbing that our schools teach them NOTHING that they need to survive in this world as it is currently.

[HeartfeltDawn]

Bruce, my dear sweet peach, your rabid fear over Communism heartens me. One day I will march over your beautiful land with the rest of my hammer and sickle-wielding friends and we will squash capitalism from your soil.

Blame consumers all you like. Corporations are under more pressure from shareholders than consumers.

[Bruce Bennett]

Bruce, my dear sweet peach, your rabid fear over Communism heartens me. One day I will march over your beautiful land with the rest of my hammer and sickle-wielding friends and we will squash capitalism from your soil.

Blame consumers all you like. Corporations are under more pressure from shareholders than consumers.

Shareholders ARE Consumers :rolleyes: I myself own stock in several companies as a majority of Americans do. thats why capitalisim works as well as it does.. We the consumer invest back into the companies we purchase from .. it's a way of "recycleing" your money.

and if you think that shareholders have more influence than the bottom line. then your way off.
if consumers aren't buying then no matter how much your shareholder bark, the company still can't crap out money they simply aren't making. sales drive a company period. not shareholders.

the current issue in America is that once upon a time; a shareholder would invest his money into company A and he would buy Company As products because he wanted his investment to grow and ultimately pay him back,

NOW, a shareholder invests in company A ands then goes out and buys Company Bs products.. HOW stupid is that!? old saying... never crap where you eat.

Your an idiot if you think I or anyone in America Fears much of anything. let alone a simple form of goverment.

this is a "Git'er done" kind of country even if your not a redneck.
we see a job and light into it period.
your just trolling now..

you need to spend more of your time and energy focusing on how to make the world better with what little amount of change you CAN affect, instead of telling me nonsense.
At least I HAVE a conviction about something. you apparently don't have enough education to FORM a conviction about anything.


sidenote;

and if the monty python skits about marching up and down the square is any indication of you and your "sickle-wielding friends" waring abilities...
America has nothing to fear at all.

[anibas]

actually , there was a price adjustment.. but most retailers simply didn't bother to make the distiction between chinese and UK manufactured speakers.. some retailers knew.. but most never found out till the chinese mades were all over the market anyway.

this type thing happens all the time with products.. it's just one more symptom of the whole "overseas manufacturing shift" that , IMHO is only just getting started.

My warning to consumers now is .. know what your paying your hard earned money for,

and to those that live in America.
Buy American so that you AND your neighbor can continue to keep on buying the things we want and need, and so that your children will have a shot at the American Dream too, otherwise, they won't

The Wal-Mart mentality WILL kill America ..BECAUSE we are a consumer based, Capitalistic society. There is no political solution to our current economic crisis. no matter what the Washington DC "marketing dept." tells us. Folks have to have jobs that pay enough, and that can't happen if American manufacturers leave for cheaper labor.

NEVER send your money to your enemy, unless they are sending an EQUAL amount of their money back.

sorry for the rant,
I consider any country that has ICBM's pointed at us to be an enemy as well.Funny thing is,with the current disparity between imports and exports,China will be beat us without ever firing a shot!

[fmw]

It is probably more accurate to view China as a competitor rather than an enemy. That could change, I suppose. I remember my father telling me back in the 1950's that China would eventually become the most effective enemy of the U.S. This during the height of the Cold War with Russia. I suspect he was probably right. Hopefully it won't happen during my lifetime.

But my reason for posting was to ask why people view the terms corporation, stockholders and dividends as negatives? It is capitalism, after all, that made the U.S. the most prosperous country in the world. It is capitalism that will probably make China the future most prosperous country in the world.

[HeartfeltDawn]

I consider any country that has ICBM's pointed at us to be an enemy as well.Funny thing is,with the current disparity between imports and exports,China will be beat us without ever firing a shot!

Funny how many US people get jittery when other countries have weapons...

[HeartfeltDawn]

It is probably more accurate to view China as a competitor rather than an enemy. That could change, I suppose. I remember my father telling me back in the 1950's that China would eventually become the most effective enemy of the U.S. This during the height of the Cold War with Russia. I suspect he was probably right. Hopefully it won't happen during my lifetime.

But my reason for posting was to ask why people view the terms corporation, stockholders and dividends as negatives? It is capitalism, after all, that made the U.S. the most prosperous country in the world. It is capitalism that will probably make China the future most prosperous country in the world.

And what do you have to show for your prosperity? A greater standard of life than many other Western countries? Free healthcare for all? A fairer society that embraces all? Educational opportunities open to all? To my line of thinking, capitalism and communism both suffer fmor the same failings. They're ideologies that suffer because of human greed. And before you pop one back at me, Britain had their own C-name ideology. It was called colonialism and we've had more than enough reason to hate elements of it.

Capitalism is not inherently evil and neither is communism. It's the greedy human elements at the top of the chain who fuck it up, whether it's Stalin or someone like Bernard Madoff.

[dughaze]

actually , there was a price adjustment.. but most retailers simply didn't bother to make the distiction between chinese and UK manufactured speakers.. some retailers knew.. but most never found out till the chinese mades were all over the market anyway.

this type thing happens all the time with products.. it's just one more symptom of the whole "overseas manufacturing shift" that , IMHO is only just getting started.

My warning to consumers now is .. know what your paying your hard earned money for,

and to those that live in America.
Buy American so that you AND your neighbor can continue to keep on buying the things we want and need, and so that your children will have a shot at the American Dream too, otherwise, they won't

The Wal-Mart mentality WILL kill America ..BECAUSE we are a consumer based, Capitalistic society. There is no political solution to our current economic crisis. no matter what the Washington DC "marketing dept." tells us. Folks have to have jobs that pay enough, and that can't happen if American manufacturers leave for cheaper labor.

NEVER send your money to your enemy, unless they are sending an EQUAL amount of their money back.

sorry for the rant,

The Wal-Mart mentality is indeed killing America. Don't apologize for telling the truth. The whole world is in a financial crisis because people couldn't say no to unhealthy mortgages much the same way people in general can't say no to the Asian Ipods damaging their ears, the Chinese lead containing dinner plates their eating off of, or the credit card they use to send payments overseas for the big TV they can't afford.

[Roadrunner]

what will you do if your job is gone tomorrow? do you understand what it means to have a job that makes 6 figures and then have it taken away from you? with no recourse or prospects for another job of similar pay?

please take no offense, but these forums are chock full of pre-teens and teenagers that have no clues about how the world really works. and I find it very disturbing that our schools teach them NOTHING that they need to survive in this world as it is currently.

You've made good point after good point but I had to emphasize your last two: I can remember a Christmas at my mother's house almost 20 years ago where almost every present we opened was made in China. I said then we were in trouble and have said continuously ever since that if we ship all of the decent paying blue & grey collar jobs overseas, the middle class will disappear in the U.S. Well, like you I've unfortunately been proven right and many now will never have jobs similar to the ones they lost or like their parents enjoyed. Over time this will have to affect our ability to remain a super power and act as the world's police force. And as far as the U.N. stepping in to fill the gap? What a joke, don't get me started.

Your comment about our schools creating clueless citizens is totally spot on as well. We taught our two children to be critical thinkers. Although we lean to the conservative side, we told them to accept no ones point of view without verifying the 'facts' yourself. Most adults today just believe the agenda laden biased propoganda that passes for news today, if they even bother to keep up with that. It's totally rare for me to find a true critical thinker amongst my kid's friends. I honestly don't have a problem with those who hold opposing political opinions as long as they've thought out their positions and can at least explain why they believe what they do. Just accepting the mass media's version of the world will lead us all to ruin.

Based on all of your well made comments I'd bet we'd have some great discussions if we weren't so geographically separated.

Later, Jim

[Jasco]

You've made good point after good point but I had to emphasize your last two: I can remember a Christmas at my mother's house almost 20 years ago where almost every present we opened was made in China. I said then we were in trouble and have said continuously ever since that if we ship all of the decent paying blue & grey collar jobs overseas, the middle class will disappear in the U.S. Well, like you I've unfortunately been proven right and many now will never have jobs similar to the ones they lost or like their parents enjoyed.



One thing not mentioned in this debate is the over-inflated wages unskilled and barely-skilled US workers make because of labor unions.

You can't build a product that will compete price-wise on the market if you're paying low-skill positions high wages.

That is the bottom line as to why jobs are being out-sourced over seas.

The average low-skill american worker has had his sense of entitlement falsely bolstered by unions to think he deserves high wages and the good life. But, the dunce doesn't realize that his combination of false sense of entitlement and lack of motivation to move beyond the low-skill level is what is doing his company and country in.

Why do you think all the auto-makers are failing - same thing.

And even with disproportionately high wages, you're average low-skill US labor worker lives extended beyond his means.

It's hard to feel much sympathy for those who show such a lack of wisdom combined with greed.

I say buy the best product at the best price regardless of where it's made and let the chips fall as they may.

[HeartfeltDawn]

You've made good point after good point but I had to emphasize your last two: I can remember a Christmas at my mother's house almost 20 years ago where almost every present we opened was made in China. I said then we were in trouble and have said continuously ever since that if we ship all of the decent paying blue & grey collar jobs overseas, the middle class will disappear in the U.S. Well, like you I've unfortunately been proven right and many now will never have jobs similar to the ones they lost or like their parents enjoyed. Over time this will have to affect our ability to remain a super power and act as the world's police force. And as far as the U.N. stepping in to fill the gap? What a joke, don't get me started.

Your comment about our schools creating clueless citizens is totally spot on as well. We taught our two children to be critical thinkers. Although we lean to the conservative side, we told them to accept no ones point of view without verifying the 'facts' yourself. Most adults today just believe the agenda laden biased propoganda that passes for news today, if they even bother to keep up with that. It's totally rare for me to find a true critical thinker amongst my kid's friends. I honestly don't have a problem with those who hold opposing political opinions as long as they've thought out their positions and can at least explain why they believe what they do. Just accepting the mass media's version of the world will lead us all to ruin.



Politicians and schools should be kept entirely seperate. The educational system has been systematically shafted for years for nothing more than political gain. Critical thought is out there but I do believe, from my experiences of talking to Americans, that you don't have a culture that wants critical thought and debate. 'With us or against us' set the agenda to a black and white mentality. Real critical debate involves seeing good and bad. it invovles occupying the grey areas. American politics since Bush came in has been about polarising groups rather than taking the middle ground.

What you say about jobs being shipped out of America is true. That is why I call shenanigans on those who blame foreign companies. The truth is that wealthy CEOs in America sold out America, just as welathy british people sold out Britain, for profit and bonuses. The bastards had been getting away with it for years. One can only hope that all the financial suffering that will happen over the next few years causes kids to grow up questioning the corporate mentality and rejecting it. For all the capitalist pride Americans have and the talk by some in this thread of the prosperity of your nation, I don't believe that increased prosperity has made America a better place.

[GtrGeorge!]

How sad..that this post started on one thing (Celestions made in China) and went into wild rants about mega-economics and political science.
Look, I get it, but...talk is cheap.
Either behave differently (like boycotting Walmart..or maybe if you dislike capitolism...join a food coop etc) and get on with it.

and for Union haters: there are so many Unions, why do you always think think they are all bad. Thats a stereo-type..and stereotypes are the evidence of a strong bias.
Me? I like UK made Celestions..they cost more..but I like em. I have bought them.,thats my vote..now you go exercise YOURS.

[TritoneTerror]

China is still a communist state

Have you been to China? There are private factories, private companies and private business everywhere. That alone proves that China is, de facto, not communist. Is China still totalitarian? Sure. Is the government more concerned with protecting its own power than protecting things like "free expression" and "justice"? Absolutely. But is it communist? Only in name.

[Bruce Bennett]

Have you been to China? There are private factories, private companies and private business everywhere. That alone proves that China is, de facto, not communist. Is China still totalitarian? Sure. Is the government more concerned with protecting its own power than protecting things like "free expression" and "justice"? Absolutely. But is it communist? Only in name.

agreed, but it's goverment only has to extend it's right arm (military) to make that condition swing back the other way.

I'm not "worried" about China being communist or really even if they went back to being Empirical..
what I'm saying is that WHILE China is emergeing as this new major player on the world market, WE, the older and more established economic powers needed to be both Ready and Quick to adapt to the new and unpredictable shifts in the balance of power/trade that is bound to happen. and it's become painfully obvious that we were not ready on either count.

and as for the Unions.. They WERE very useful.. once. but it's obvious that they have outlived there original use. We MUST adapt to the modern methods that we are being assulted with from our competitors. (for instance, the Asian car makers)
Toyota ,Nissan and Honda all have factories here in the US all staffed with American labor AT lower than UAW pay scales yet with good beneifits, and NO UNIONS!

WHY do we need to pay folks 62 per hr UAW scale while toyota is paying 42 per hr? and making excellent products that sell for only a small amount less than American makers. Why can't we simply deregulate the need for the UAW and put Americans back to work at the slightly lowered scale?... one that many of these same workers have already accepted when they left Detroit to go to work for one of these Asian makers... in most cases, Workers in the Spring Hill TN Nissan Truck plant told me that not having to pay union dues offset the pay losses.

unlimited growth is a myth. and at some point weither we ( the labor force) like it or not, Pay checks WILL have to drop back somewhat if we are to compete with folks that live in a dirt floor hut, eat rice 3 times a day and walk or ride a bike to work and don't even know what having a big screen TV is about.... and work 10 hr a day for an average of 45 cents per hr! ( look it up!) So yes heartfeltdawn we Do have a better standard of living! weither you like it or not. it IS better to live here than anywhere else in the world.

and that paycheck business should go double for the bloated Corp. managments...

many small business owners have taken it on the chin for years in the hopes of one day selling off their business to some larger Corp. for that big cash sum so they could retire.. working for years with little to no paychecks while paying ever increaseing, goverment mandated labor rates and being forced to deal with Goverment regs that were designed primarily to keep the Corps in check, but ultimately end up hurting everyones bottom line....consumers included.

While large Corp. execs. make 6-7 figures just to juggle numbers, play golf during work hours and drive expensive cars and own larger than neccessary homes and have golden parachute clauses in their contracts...
That MUST stop. it's stupid. to all those that named Greed as the culprit. I say YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!... but what do we do about it?

Look into the Asian auto makers models. no more than 3 teirs of managment from bottom to the top...and no teir makes more than 15% above the teir below. so yes, even the president of toyota doesn't make more than 120K per year.
( some of my figures are over 3 years old now, so you should research this for yourself)

i know "warm bodies" on the line at Ford that make more than that.

[PurpleStain]

Shareholders ARE Consumers :rolleyes: I myself own stock in several companies as a majority of Americans do.


I'd have to see statistics on that one, I can count on one hand how many people I know that own stock in companies.

[ermghoti II]

I'd have to see statistics on that one, I can count on one hand how many people I know that own stock in companies.

You don't know anybody with a retirement fund? If you have mutual funds, you have stock.

[PurpleStain]

You don't know anybody with a retirement fund? If you have mutual funds, you have stock.

Okay, maybe two hands.

[TheEsupremacy]

I love how people blame Walmart* for everything that's wrong with America. That is so ridiculous. :rolleyes:
Do they sell shoddy made in China products? Sure. Do you have to buy them? No. Are their groceries cheaper than anywhere else in town? Yes.
They employ millions of Americans who would otherwise be taxpayer problems.
Some still are because of the health care premium crisis. Maybe Walmart should just buy only made in America goods, cover all employee health care premiums, and pay all employees $15+ an hour. Maybe unionize even! That would solve everything wouldn't it? It worked for GM, right? :idea: