a new twist to counterfeiting high dollar guitars

[Bruce Bennett]

this concerns 50-60 Strats and Teles primarily.

There has been of late in my region of the country, (Chattanooga Tn)
a considerable amount of folks buying Bill Nash Guitars and adding correct style Fender logos to them and then trying to pass them off as the real deals for 10 of thousands to unsuspecting newer vintage collectors.

This can be particularly tough for the uninitiated vintage buyer, as they are often not comfortable with the idea of Disassembling a guitar BEFORE they buy it. or why it is so important to do so.

But i highly recommend this as a standard procedure,

Most vintage dealers understand that a serious potential buyer would most likely require this to be done, and in the buyers presence (insist on this) and that simply because the seller has "photos" of a disassembled guitar that "appears" to be the same one. is in no way a guarntee of not being deceived.
I have personally seen photos of a Nash guitar with Close up photos of particular construction details from a real Fender added to the lot, that would have you swearing that all the photos were of the same guitar. a very easy thing to do.

Study up on every particular detail you can find out about the model you intend to purchase, insist on a full disassembly, even if you have to pay a pro to do it, or to accomidate the sellers wish to have it done by someone that they can be sure of to put it back together correctly. it may cost you a small fee, but you'll be glad you did after the purchase.
if a seller is not willing to have the guitar professionally disassembled. Look elsewhere. somethings most likely wrong with it.

many Nash Guitars were made from Fender Licensed parts Sold through ALLPARTS of Tx. these parts are usually clearly marked. even though they may look 40 years old or more, in reality, they are of new manufacture. I have seen a few newer Nash models without any markings as well. this makes our task even harder.

these guitars sell "new" for around 2K each and the Fender logos are available on Ebay for anywhere from 35.00-85.00 each, so you can see how an additional 100.00 spent, can net a crook a 10K+ profit.

just because a guitar "looks" old doesn't mean it "is" old anymore.

and while it might appear as though I'm "picking on" Mr. Nash.. I assure you that there are more than just him out there making "relic" copies of Fenders..

[D Carroll]

Damn... That is close to home for me... Thanks for the tip. I wonder how the Bill Nash folks feel about this... Have they been notified?

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

My Brother relics Strats ( no, not the belt sander method ) but in every detail such as pain stakingly razor blading in the checked lacquer detail and just the perfect amount of wear and tear. Looking at the real deal at Guitar shows, it's clear that some people know what they are doing in order to relic guitars and he's one of them. This detail extends into the neck pockets and pup cavities.

My Bro is an honest guy, sold a 57 relic strat to a guy, then later saw his Strat up for consignment sale as an 'original' at a shop. :mad:

He found the owner who paid a handsome price for the guitar and was out to hopefully make $10,000 on the deal. The guy then traced the second owner down and got a healthy refund...... that guy absolutely knew the guitar wasn't the real deal, but just scammed the 3rd owner into believing it was.

Buyer beware !!! A fool and his money are soon separated. :o

[Professor Tom]

Vintage Fender collectors and dealers have known for a couple of years now that there are more 50's and 60's so-called Fender Teles and Strats around now than there have been for quite a few years now, a lot of them are fakes plain and simple. Even the genuine guitars have had some of the parts swapped out so the original parts can be sold on to customers who need them to restore their own guitars to original condition. Here is an example:
Genius person makes some fake reliced 54 Tele scratchplates that are so good you would never know. He sells one to a guy who has an original 54 Tele who swaps it over with his and sells the guitar "sight as seen" He now has an original 54 Tele scratchplate to sell on to a restorer. The same thing happens with pickups and other parts.

The advice, buy a good custom shop relic instead, not the belt sander versions. Fender know this, that is why their relics are so expensive these days, they know that with one of theirs you are not buying a "wrong" guitar.

[gstanm]

I'd really like to see an example of this. Nash relics that I have seen have the model, date and acronym for the dealer and Bill's signature written with a sharpie on the headstock. This would have to be removed and an expert refinish and re-relic of the affected areas performed, you couldn't simply sand it off.

So the assertion that one could simply add a decal is absurd. Probably urban legend stemming from how good Nash's relics are.

Plus, his neck plates have a random number on them, you'd have to get a serial number for the year you were trying to fake and have the finish match Fender's records.

Besides, without markings from Nash, how could you determine that it was one of his?


As for confirming a Fender, granted you can take the neck and pickguard off and look for the date stamps and nail holes but even those can be faked. You really have to get all the information and present it to Fender in a way that they will trust and provide the verification you need.

[headless]

I've heard about these Nash guitars, but seen one in person.

I notice that on his web site, his "T" (Tele) style guitars use a bridge plate that says, "FENDER, PAT. PEND. 1056", or "1279".

http://www.nashguitars.com/gallery/t_series.html

I imagine that Fender currently makes bridge plates with these markings for there various re-issues, but do they sell these separately from complete guitars? If so, that would seem to add to the problem.

Or does Nash gets non-Fender parts that are marked "FENDER" (which I really doubt)?

[gstanm]

I notice that on his web site, his "T" (Tele) style guitars use a bridge plate that says, "FENDER, PAT. PEND. 1056", or "1279".

I imagine that Fender currently makes bridge plates with these markings for there various re-issues, but do they sell these separately from complete guitars? If so, that would seem to add to the problem.



The bridges are readily available Fender Parts. The bridge is just a part and isn't an "identifier". Nash's are built using necks and bodies licensed by Fender.

How exactly could you determine that a counterfeit Fender was originally a Nash? What markings specifically would identify a fake as being a Nash?

Nash uses primarily Lollar pups, but also uses other aftermarket pups. only the covers are aged. Vintage Fenders aren't gonna have aftermarket pups.

[TomVanDeven]

The bridges are readily available Fender Parts. The bridge is just a part and isn't an "identifier". Nash's are built using necks and bodies licensed by Fender.

Some Telecaster bridges have the serial number stamped onto them, mainly the '52 Vintage Reissues from 1988-1997 and the current '52 Reissues from 1998 to present. Though anything in the 1000's would be pretty early models, I'm not sure where Nash gets his bridges.


How exactly could you determine that a counterfeit Fender was originally a Nash? What markings specifically would identify a fake as being a Nash?

The necks and bodies are stamped in the cavities "ALLPARTS LIC BY FENDER", but that could be sanded off. There are also alot of other little things to look for, such as the style of the Kluson tuners (vintage ones will have a protruding button shaft, lack of two notches near the screwhole, and the full word "Deluxe" stampled on the back, all things that differ from the newer RI Klusons). Heaps and heaps of info located here:

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html

[gstanm]

Some Telecaster bridges have the serial number stamped onto them, mainly the '52 Vintage Reissues from 1988-1997 and the current '52 Reissues from 1998 to present. Though anything in the 1000's would be pretty early models, I'm not sure where Nash gets his bridges.




The necks and bodies are stamped in the cavities "ALLPARTS LIC BY FENDER", but that could be sanded off. There are also alot of other little things to look for, such as the style of the Kluson tuners (vintage ones will have a protruding button shaft, lack of two notches near the screwhole, and the full word "Deluxe" stampled on the back, all things that differ from the newer RI Klusons). Heaps and heaps of info located here:



But none of this would indicate that a fake is a Nash. AllParts sells to the public.

Again, my question is "How can any of the assertions that a fake is a Nash be proved?"

So far no direct evidence of this has been presented, only hearsay, and since the parts Nash uses are available to anyone it would seem that to only thing that could establish that a fake is a Nash would be for the perpetrator to admit that it was a Nash and to detail how he removed the sharpie signature and model numbers from the headstock.

New Nash's have a 10" radius board rather than 7.5". Nash uses mainly Lollars, which are going to have flat poles. If Lollar puts serial numbers on his pups then Lollar could identify who the pups were sold to.

Again, if someone is interested in buying a vintage instrument they'd better know how to verify the authenticity of the instrument and any resistance to verification on the part of the seller should be a red flag that something is rotten.

[Bruce Bennett]

But none of this would indicate that a fake is a Nash. AllParts sells to the public.

Again, my question is "How can any of the assertions that a fake is a Nash be proved?"

So far no direct evidence of this has been presented, only hearsay, and since the parts Nash uses are available to anyone it would seem that to only thing that could establish that a fake is a Nash would be for the perpetrator to admit that it was a Nash and to detail how he removed the sharpie signature and model numbers from the headstock.

New Nash's have a 10" radius board rather than 7.5". Nash uses mainly Lollars, which are going to have flat poles. If Lollar puts serial numbers on his pups then Lollar could identify who the pups were sold to.

Again, if someone is interested in buying a vintage instrument they'd better know how to verify the authenticity of the instrument and any resistance to verification on the part of the seller should be a red flag that something is rotten.

wow, are you really serious? your missing the entire point.
I'm not saying "all Fakes are a Nash" thats just ludicrious.

I'm saying that a Nash is a very quick starting point... and that I've seen it done now too many times now for my comfort..

one or two quick swipes of MEK, acetone or even slow wiping with ethanol or naptha and the sharpie sig. is gone.
and with only a tiny amount of damage to the finish and the type of damage left, blends in with the relicing so as to be "part of the relic job" so to speak.
don't forget that nitro Lacquer is the easiest of finishes to repair.. and to relic.

the wholepoint to the post was to make folks aware that ANY fender-esque guitar is only made up of parts that are removable and replacable with nearly anything you want. Nash is simply making it easier for the NON-DIYer to fake a fender.. you'll never be able to stop the serious counterfeiter. he can build a better guitar than Fender ever did in most cases.. I've seen several fakes that were better than the real things. Galen Micheal American Selects for one. if you ever find one.. grab it. problem is... it might say Fender on it instead of Galen Micheals... get the picture now?

so knowing ALL the details before you go after that Vintage purchase is absolutely KEY to getting a real one.. and even then I've seen "originals" recently made from an assembledge of real parts bring way more than what it should have. and so the story IMHO should be..

Don't Buy ANY Fender styled guitars for Vintage Money.. it's never gonna be smart.. but that idea will never take hold. so education is the key now and just know that the chance of getting burned is MUCH higher than you think.

the problem with any relics of late manufacture, is that within a few years they achieve that "patina" that renders them a great deal harder to spot as Fakes and if you have a person that intentionally adds all the small, but neccessary additions that will convert, say a Nash, to a Fender look-a-like... how will we be able to distinguish these fakes from the real things in the next 5-10 years?

what if you added a real fender neck to a Nash? or real pickups? etc etc..
how little would it really cost you to upgrade a Nash to be "good enough" to fool the noobie vintage buyer?

From what I've witnessed.. enough to make it profitable for the faker to do so.
and so .. they will. There is no hearsay in this, it's being done right now. and in the south where money is always tight.. it's will happen a great deal more.

[Professor Tom]

wow, are you really serious? your missing the entire point.
I'm not saying "all Fakes are a Nash" thats just ludicrious.

I'm saying that a Nash is a very quick starting point... and that I've seen it done now too many times now for my comfort..

one or two quick swipes of MEK, acetone or even slow wiping with ethanol or naptha and the sharpie sig. is gone.
and with only a tiny amount of damage to the finish and the type of damage left, blends in with the relicing so as to be "part of the relic job" so to speak.
don't forget that nitro Lacquer is the easiest of finishes to repair.. and to relic.

the wholepoint to the post was to make folks aware that ANY fender-esque guitar is only made up of parts that are removable and replacable with nearly anything you want. Nash is simply making it easier for the NON-DIYer to fake a fender.. you'll never be able to stop the serious counterfeiter. he can build a better guitar than Fender ever did in most cases.. I've seen several fakes that were better than the real things. Galen Micheal American Selects for one. if you ever find one.. grab it. problem is... it might say Fender on it instead of Galen Micheals... get the picture now?

so knowing ALL the details before you go after that Vintage purchase is absolutely KEY to getting a real one.. and even then I've seen "originals" recently made from an assembledge of real parts bring way more than what it should have. and so the story IMHO should be..

Don't Buy ANY Fender styled guitars for Vintage Money.. it's never gonna be smart.. but that idea will never take hold. so education is the key now and just know that the chance of getting burned is MUCH higher than you think.

the problem with any relics of late manufacture, is that within a few years they achieve that "patina" that renders them a great deal harder to spot as Fakes and if you have a person that intentionally adds all the small, but neccessary additions that will convert, say a Nash, to a Fender look-a-like... how will we be able to distinguish these fakes from the real things in the next 5-10 years?

what if you added a real fender neck to a Nash? or real pickups? etc etc..
how little would it really cost you to upgrade a Nash to be "good enough" to fool the noobie vintage buyer?

From what I've witnessed.. enough to make it profitable for the faker to do so.
and so .. they will. There is no hearsay in this, it's being done right now. and in the south where money is always tight.. it's will happen a great deal more.

This man knows what he is talking about. Print his post, stick it on the fridge door and read it every time you have GAS for a vintage Fender.
I've seen fakes that are better than the real thing too, even in England.

[headless]

^ I hate the smell of spam in the morning; it smells like chicanery.

[Bobby D]

honestly -- about the only vintage Fender that i would trust right now would be one that was coming from the original owners, and that i was getting cheap. it still happens every now and then, but not like it used to.

but all the ones that are in the marketplace and have changed hands (and parts) dozens of times? no thanks....

the only vintage fender i still have is one that i got stupid cheap, from the owner who had owned it since the late 70s...

[Screaming Stone]

honestly -- about the only vintage Fender that i would trust right now would be one that was coming from the original owners, and that i was getting cheap. it still happens every now and then, but not like it used to.

but all the ones that are in the marketplace and have changed hands (and parts) dozens of times? no thanks....

the only vintage fender i still have is one that i got stupid cheap, from the owner who had owned it since the late 70s...

Agree on that. The best vintage purchase I made was from a very old guy selling his '59 ES-345 Natural (Gib built naturals for about 6 months - then went to cherry and bursts). Had it in a closet for 40 something years. Lived on a farm in Washington. Bought it in '59, played it for a few months then put it away. Kind of freaked him out when I started taking it apart to check the pups. Really freaked him out when we offered him more than twice the amount he though he was going to get (our store manager was one of the best guys in the industry - he knew paying a fair price was better in the long run - guy ended up recommending us to his friends who had similar vintage gear.)

[CannedHeat]

I work at one of the few music stores left in Chattanooga, and I haven't come across anyone trying to pass one of these Vintage guitars off to us yet, but I'll be on the lookout.
Thanks!

[Mad Hatter]

why would anyone pay that much for a guitar anyways

[CannedHeat]

Vintage guitars are an investment, much like keeping an old car in factory condition. The price on well maintained guitars, vintage guitars appreciates in value. Therefor buying an instrument for ten grand now would yield more than double that in several years.

[gtrjones]

At the beginning of his business (3+ yrs ago?), Bill Nash sold and shipped guitars with Fender logos. He got a cease-and-desist letter from Fender for his efforts.

[Rad Skronker]

I never liked relics and this counterfeit business is one of the reasons why.

I just traded a real strat for a Warmoth parts tele. The tele has a Fender decal on it that I will be removing because I don't like the idea or appearance of misrepresentation.

Having a stupid decal on my guitar does not make it more or less valuable to me.

God knows, I would like to cut off the hands of the people who perpetrate this kind of fraud.

[wchua24]

thanks for the tip..nice one.

[Suit & Tie Guy]

gotta say while i think the idea of counterfeit guitars (or any kind of vintage instrument) is completely despicable, the guys doing these jobs in the guitar scene are doing a MUCH better job than whoever it was that made some counterfeit Moog synthesizer modules that are floating around.

[cavpilot]

If you're a relic builder nowadays and you are serious about not wanting your hard work to be fraudulantly passed off as an original Fender, then there's plenty of things you can do: brand (burn) your logo into the neck pocket of the body or under the pick guard, and the base of the neck. Passive RFID chip. Clear Neon paint. Laser etch the back of metal parts.

Anyone who doesn't at least pull the neck off a vintage guitar they're looking to pay tens of thousands for is a moron (unless, of course, it's a set neck LOL).

[kingsransom]

I have seen several Nash and other relic copies. None of them would pass muster with an experienced vintage collector/dealer, even without taking them apart.

The lesson here is to always have an experienced person you trust look at a potential purchase. Two or three experts is even better.

[Frets99]

I never liked relics and this counterfeit business is one of the reasons why.

I just traded a real strat for a Warmoth parts tele. The tele has a Fender decal on it that I will be removing because I don't like the idea or appearance of misrepresentation.

Having a stupid decal on my guitar does not make it more or less valuable to me.

God knows, I would like to cut off the hands of the people who perpetrate this kind of fraud.

I understand your dislike for the relic business. I don't care for it myself but just the fact that people pay for vintage guitars, there would be a niche for people scamming vintage guitar buyers.

[aliensporebomb]

What these criminals are trying to do is get the newbie collectors with a lot of
disposable cash and not too much experience to know what's what.

Another reason to be extremely sceptical of this whole nonsense.

[radonballoon]

i currently have 2 60's fender strats (63 and 65 with a 66 neck). when the relic thing came about i pretty much stopped bothering trying to obtain any more. one, because the prices skyrocketed and two, the fakes were everywhere. i wish i had saved it but there was a neck on ebay just this month that was clearly a ri 70's mim. the guy had scuffed it up and was selling it bin for something like 800 dollars. there was also another 70's strat neck that was supposedly a ri from the 90's. this one was clearly a squier with a fender logo. the logo was not even remotely correct in design or placement. i called the guy on it and he never responded. it sold for like 300. you gotta really watch out these days. granted that's not 10k on a 57 strat, but getting robbed is getting robbed.

[jcsugrue]

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but "relic" and "counterfeit" might as well mean that same thing. The hard work and craftsmanship that go into a "genuine" relic is impressive, I can't argue that at all, but dropping $4k on a new guitar that looks like it has been around for 50 years and has had the shit played out of it is absurd. It's like buying ripped jeans, or band t-shirts that looked like they have been washed 100 times, it's fucking retarded.

[customtele]

2 thumbs up to jcs. A real relic is one that has a story behind the bumps & bruises (I was bangin' this groupie on the pool table & the guitar was leaned against it.......).

[jcsugrue]

Absolutely, a true relic smells like lady juice.

[New Trail]

It's really too bad that Fender's lawyers didn't see to it that their designs were copyrighted or trademarked back in the beginning. That would have stopped the copies, and also forced other manufacturers into coming up with saleable designs of their own.

[BG76]

Hey, I would beware of anything bought from GC as well. For a long time I would have people bring in guitars I made and say, "I don't know anything about this as I'm not a guitar player but I want to sell it" and they would walk out with 500 - 2000 in cash for something I made in my basement.

I have the correct stamps to make serial numbers and know how to age nitro. For a while I was actually doing custom colors over sunburst bodies, etc... this was back in the 1990s.

I never sold anything as real, but I must have made about 7 guitars that went into GC/Mars and the salespeople thought they were real - even though I or anyone I sent in ever said they were - we always did the, "I don't know what this is" line.

I'm sure a few of these got found out and a few were sold.

These days it would be a little harder to do, as people are more savy but I would be extra cautious when dealing with ebay or big chain stores.