Singing Pet Peeves.... what are yours?

[baimun]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.

Also, with respect for the pace of the show, it's a necessary evil to mix up the set list to allow "lighter" vocal songs after really tough songs.


Bandmates keeping an open mind about these things helps them in the long run because they're not replacing their singer after 6 months because they've worn out their voice.:cop:

[DjangoStiltskin]

Axl Rose.:o

[baimun]

Axl Rose.:o


Oh come on.







I said "singing". :D

[DjangoStiltskin]

Oh come on.







I said "singing". :D


:lol:

[baimun]

I shouldn't say that too loud or Ron won't ever talk to me again. :p

http://baimun.home.comcast.net/~baimun/baimun-nj1.jpg

[Bajazz]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

[BLACKWINGEDBEING]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

None of us are superman dude. Besides that most of us don't make a living doing this and while some do I'd still be pressed to agrre that most can improve their range so that it can cover ALL the ground musically. Where's all the 7 octave singers? There are none.

[micwalt]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

One can expand one's vocal range but only to a point. Also, after a certain age, even that is nigh impossible.
In short, your comment was stupid.
:facepalm:

[baimun]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

Prediction:

At some point a singer will buy you a capo... and you'll look at it like "what's that for?"

;)

[Frank Prince]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.

Also, with respect for the pace of the show, it's a necessary evil to mix up the set list to allow "lighter" vocal songs after really tough songs.


Bandmates keeping an open mind about these things helps them in the long run because they're not replacing their singer after 6 months because they've worn out their voice.:cop:Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Sure, a guitar player can capo a tune in C up to C# with no problems, but if the singer wants to take it down to Bb and there are a lot of embellishments involving open C and G chords, it's a completely different story.

Also, God help the singer who insists on key changes and then gets impatient on stage when you are fumbling around with a capo and trying to tune your guitar, or tuning the whole thing down to Eb or D. :evil:

[baimun]

Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't....

....Also, God help the singer who insists on key changes and then gets impatient on stage when you are fumbling around with a capo and trying to tune your guitar, or tuning the whole thing down to Eb or D. :evil:

You don't sound jerkish at all. Just being aware of all the bandmembers needs and preferences can be enough to come to amicable adjustments.

Changing keys live would piss me off too. Sometimes the muscle memory takes over and you end up sliding to where you're used to... and over thinking what key you're in kills the spontenaity.

I'm mostly referring to rehearsed key changes that make the entire group sound more in-the-pocket, both in lead and harmony vocals.

[SevenString]

7-strings, FTW. :lol:

Seriously, I'm mainly a singer, but as you can tell by my moniker, I'm also a guitar player, and if I'm accompanying someone else while they sing? I do everything to accomodate that singer, and I'll go as far as transposing on the fly if I have to.

So what if I make a couple of clams on the guitar? That's MUCH less of a distraction to the audience than if the singer sounds like crap through the entire song, in a key that's out of his or her range.

Just my opinion. Flame on...

[Rhythm Junky]

"Fake" vibrato like The Bee Gees and Kenny Rogers.

[flemtone]

1: Whitney-like vocal gymnastics/wanking.

2: Patty Smith.

[Bajazz]

One can expand one's vocal range but only to a point. Also, after a certain age, even that is nigh impossible.Again, this is just another myth. Of course there is a limit to anything, but unless you are a man singing way in the soprano area you have a lot of potential.

When you start off bodybuilding being skinny and 60 kg you simply can't have the attitude that you'd might gain a couple of kg. Then you'll just be the one of many who confirm the myth that it's "impossible" to make a Hulk out of a wimp.

You need the spirit and attitude, go for it!!

If you don't believe me, buy Jaimie Venderas "Raise your voice", read it and work for it a while. Any man, bass or baritone can sing above a high powerful tenor C using the correct technique. Straining won't get you there. Correct practice will.

I know, cause I used to stran with a E (as in open thin e-string on guitar), now I sing AC/DC tunes. I will be 40 soon and keep singing higher and louder....

But most people want to believe what you said, cause it's so much more comfortable to not work hard.... :)

[b_nehpets]

rememberizing lyrics. even for originals.

[Al Koehn]

What too many guitar, keyboard and bass players don't understand or refuse to accept is the fact that their instruments are always physically capable of producing all the notes unless they are broken or faulty. But no matter how many hours they practice they will not be able to play notes that are beyond the range of the instrument.

The range of the voice depends on the size of the vocal chords. Think of saxophones. The soprano sax (Kenny G) is is very small instrument, incapable of playing the low notes which can be played on an alto sax. But it easily produces much higher notes because of its small size. The tenor sax is bigger than the alto, and is capable of much lower notes, but has trouble going as high. And so on. The size of the instrument dictates how high and low it can play.

Small vocal cords (sopranos) are capable of producing higher notes than the next bigger size (altos), which are capable of producing higher sounds than tenor (male) cords, and so on. Unlike saxophones, vocal chords can often be taught to extend their high ranges, but this is limited, and when the singer strains to hit the high notes they damage their instrument (and sound bad) The low range is almost impossible to extend beyond the physical limits of the cords.

When we reach adulthood, like our noses or ears, our vocal cords settle into a specific size which dictates how high or low they can sing. This seldom changes during our lives. No matter how much the guitar player complains, a guy with bass-sized vocal cords will not be able to cover a Steve Perry song in the original key.

The argument that practicing will change the size of the vocal instrument is like saying that practicing will change the size and range of the guitar or bass. It won't work.

The keys of Steven Tyler's songs are carefully chosen to accommodate the size of his vocal cords. (His range) Unless your band has a singer with Steven Tyler-sized cords there are probably going to be several Aerosmith songs you will need to change the key on if you want your singer (and band) to sound good. The audience doesn't care what key you do a song in as long as it sounds good.

Like it or not, the lead singer is usually the defining factor in the personality of the band. Care must be taken to insure that he or she sounds the best they possibly can. If this means changing keys, and often does, that's what must be done.

[Gizzmo0815]

What too many guitar, keyboard and bass players don't understand or refuse to accept is the fact that their instruments are always physically capable of producing all the notes unless they are broken or faulty. But no matter how many hours they practice they will not be able to play notes that are beyond the range of the instrument.

The range of the voice depends on the size of the vocal chords. Think of saxophones. The soprano sax (Kenny G) is is very small instrument, incapable of playing the low notes which can be played on an alto sax. But it easily produces much higher notes because of its small size. The tenor sax is bigger than the alto, and is capable of much lower notes, but has trouble going as high. And so on. The size of the instrument dictates how high and low it can play.

Small vocal cords (sopranos) are capable of producing higher notes than the next bigger size (altos), which are capable of producing higher sounds than tenor (male) cords, and so on. Unlike saxophones, vocal chords can often be taught to extend their high ranges, but this is limited, and when the singer strains to hit the high notes they damage their instrument (and sound bad) The low range is almost impossible to extend beyond the physical limits of the cords.

When we reach adulthood, like our noses or ears, our vocal cords settle into a specific size which dictates how high or low they can sing. This seldom changes during our lives. No matter how much the guitar player complains, a guy with bass-sized vocal cords will not be able to cover a Steve Perry song in the original key.

The argument that practicing will change the size of the vocal instrument is like saying that practicing will change the size and range of the guitar or bass. It won't work.

The keys of Steven Tyler's songs are carefully chosen to accommodate the size of his vocal cords. (His range) Unless your band has a singer with Steven Tyler-sized cords there are probably going to be several Aerosmith songs you will need to change the key on if you want your singer (and band) to sound good. The audience doesn't care what key you do a song in as long as it sounds good.

Like it or not, the lead singer is usually the defining factor in the personality of the band. Care must be taken to insure that he or she sounds the best they possibly can. If this means changing keys, and often does, that's what must be done.

This

[flemtone]

There you go, being all kinds of common-sensical and everything...

Don't you know where you are?


Great post, Al.

[micwalt]

Again, this is just another myth. Of course there is a limit to anything, but unless you are a man singing way in the soprano area you have a lot of potential.

When you start off bodybuilding being skinny and 60 kg you simply can't have the attitude that you'd might gain a couple of kg. Then you'll just be the one of many who confirm the myth that it's "impossible" to make a Hulk out of a wimp.

You need the spirit and attitude, go for it!!

If you don't believe me, buy Jaimie Venderas "Raise your voice", read it and work for it a while. Any man, bass or baritone can sing above a high powerful tenor C using the correct technique. Straining won't get you there. Correct practice will.

I know, cause I used to stran with a E (as in open thin e-string on guitar), now I sing AC/DC tunes. I will be 40 soon and keep singing higher and louder....

But most people want to believe what you said, cause it's so much more comfortable to not work hard.... :)

I personally have no problems--I have a very large range. I trained myself in my early 20's to be able to sing high, even though I'm naturally a baritone.
Not everyone can do it, though. There are limits.
And it's true that a skinny guy can't become a hulk too (w/o pharmaceutical help, that is). There is no way a true ectomorph will ever reach the size required to compete in a Mr. Olympian contest.
I think Al's post explains it pretty well.

[JacieFB]

I think *usually* moving a tune up or down a half-step is very acceptable. Occasionally, it makes a tune sound a little strange, but rarely is it even noticeable. I get a little peeved when a singer has to bring a song down a whole octave. At that point, be reasonable, the song is out of your range. Let it alone. There are exceptions, of course...guys doing songs that originally had female vocals and vice versa. Still, taking a Journey song down a whole octave, for instance, completely kills the vibe of the song.

Other pet peeves: no one gets my on-stage jokes. :confused: :D

Darn guitarists need to change guitars faster so I'm not having to do extended dance remix small talk. :mad:

[Frank Prince]

7-strings, FTW. :lol:

Seriously, I'm mainly a singer, but as you can tell by my moniker, I'm also a guitar player, and if I'm accompanying someone else while they sing? I do everything to accomodate that singer, and I'll go as far as transposing on the fly if I have to.

So what if I make a couple of clams on the guitar? That's MUCH less of a distraction to the audience than if the singer sounds like crap through the entire song, in a key that's out of his or her range.

Just my opinion. Flame on...I guess my take on it is that if transposition makes the song sound exceedingly awkward on any instrument including voice that it should be dumped. :idk:

This is not always possible on casuals or pickup gigs, but is how I prefer it in general.

[BLACKWINGEDBEING]

Great post Al!

[RupertB]

1) Glissando: Sliding up & down to the next note rather than hitting each note. Rookie, rookie, rookie.

2) Singing through your teeth/nose. Open your freakin' mouth.

3) Cupping/eating the mic. Learn how to work a mic properly.

[SevenString]

Back to the OP:

Pet-peeves AS a singer?

1) Working with bands who SURPRISE! have a shitty PA, yet won't ratchet back on the instrumental volume to accommodate the vocals.

2) The times I have worked with a second singer in a cover band, even though we agree to split the songs evenly, it ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS turns into a power-grab on the other singer's part, and I have to fight to keep the distribution "even". I shouldn't have to do that.

3) Fascist guitarists. Enough said.


Pet-peeves re. OTHER singers?

1) This R&B style of working all your vocal exercises into a song. Try to sing the damned melody, just a little. PLEASE.

2) Machine-gun vibrato. No matter how good a singer sounds otherwise, if I hear the machine-gun vibrato, I'm out. There are some really well known singers out there, who get a lot of praise from other singers, yet have this deal-killer affliction.

3) LSD. Get over yourself and act like a human being. So you can carry a tune in a bucket. Hooray! Maybe you sound really good while doing it. Hooray! But it's a talent, not a super-power. The sooner you figure that out, the better for you and everyone who has to work with you.

[rockerdiva]

Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Sure, a guitar player can capo a tune in C up to C# with no problems, but if the singer wants to take it down to Bb and there are a lot of embellishments involving open C and G chords, it's a completely different story.

I'm the lead singer. We routinely move songs to accomodate my range. If moving it ruins the sound of the song or makes it too difficult for us to play, and I just can't do it in the original key, we scrap the tune. There are a few that I am singing maybe a whole step higher or lower than I might like, just to make it easy on the guys who may have already known the tune in the original key. I don't like doing that because the vocals aren't as good as they could be, but if the vocals are still good, I'll do it.

[rockerdiva]

And I hate that acrobatic, R and B, Mariah Carey, show off every note that you have got style! Not that I could pull it off if I tried, but I still think it's way too much. Over the years I have had a few (admittedly completely naive) people ask me why I don't try out for American Idol or some such thing. I'm like, first of all, I'm way too old (44), and secondly, I'd be laughed out of the audition room! That doesn't mean I can't sing. I have been gigging for 20+ years. But I have a normal voice. A good one - people tend to think it is strong and with a good range to it, though they would probably be surprised at how narrow my actual range is. Again, it's all about singing the song in the right key for your instrument ...

[Steverino]

I'm the lead singer. We routinely move songs to accomodate my range. If moving it ruins the sound of the song or makes it too difficult for us to play, and I just can't do it in the original key, we scrap the tune.

Common sense emerges.


Oh, my peeve would be vocalists who start yakking before the song is over. :mad:

[ChristianRock]

Many years ago, through vocal exercises, I got to the point that I could do Queensrÿche and Judas Priest as well as go very low.
But guess what? I'm just not into singing that high anymore, and there's a "sweet spot" to my voice on any given song where it just sounds right. I think that can be said of any singer. Working with a band that is willing to make the song sound its best and isn't just worried about "how can I look better than everybody else around me" like a lot of guitar players :rolleyes: is worth gold and can truly make a difference.

I was in a band once where they had a female singer before me and the guitar player refused to change the keys of the songs for me. Well, that didn't work out, and that band now doesn't even exist anymore - after I left they averaged a different singer every year for like 5 years and then just gave up. That guitar player will spend the rest of his life giving lessons and bitching about how unfair it is that a guitar player like him never made it.

Guitar players need this reality check: if your singer isn't sounding good either because he/she is not good, or because he/she is not singing where he/she is comfortable, you're not gonna make it as a band. :idea:

So I guess my biggest singing pet peeve is guitar players who don't play well with other musicians :p

Second biggest pet peeve as a singer is drummers - 99% of them don't know the meaning of the word "precision". I'm using a drum machine on my recordings now for a reason...

[Bajazz]

What too many guitar, keyboard and bass players don't understand or refuse to accept is the fact that their instruments are always physically capable of producing all the notes unless they are broken or faulty. But no matter how many hours they practice they will not be able to play notes that are beyond the range of the instrument.
True. However many vocalists refuse to even try to expand their range, cause they think it is set in stone. They try to sing a note, strain and miss, and that's it. "OK, I can't sing beyond f# for the rest of my life". It's like a guitar player says "I can't play 16-notes faster than 92 bpm, so we need to slow down all songs down to that speed for the rest of my life"
The range of the voice depends on the size of the vocal chords. Think of saxophones. The soprano sax (Kenny G) is is very small instrument, incapable of playing the low notes which can be played on an alto sax. But it easily produces much higher notes because of its small size. The tenor sax is bigger than the alto, and is capable of much lower notes, but has trouble going as high. And so on. The size of the instrument dictates how high and low it can play.But many tenors stop at a A or Bb, which is way to early to give up. Even a Bass can go way beyond high C using correct technique.
Small vocal cords (sopranos) are capable of producing higher notes than the next bigger size (altos), which are capable of producing higher sounds than tenor (male) cords, and so on. Unlike saxophones, vocal chords can often be taught to extend their high ranges, but this is limited, and when the singer strains to hit the high notes they damage their instrument (and sound bad) The low range is almost impossible to extend beyond the physical limits of the cords. As I said the limit is in 99% of the cases by technique rather than physical.
When we reach adulthood, like our noses or ears, our vocal cords settle into a specific size which dictates how high or low they can sing. This seldom changes during our lives. No matter how much the guitar player complains, a guy with bass-sized vocal cords will not be able to cover a Steve Perry song in the original key.Chord size might dictate how voice resonates, but with practice he can sing above high C.
The argument that practicing will change the size of the vocal instrument is like saying that practicing will change the size and range of the guitar or bass. It won't work. Not the size, but the use. No matter your size, after thousand hours with correct training in the gym, you'll be lot stronger than most men.
The keys of Steven Tyler's songs are carefully chosen to accommodate the size of his vocal cords. (His range) Unless your band has a singer with Steven Tyler-sized cords there are probably going to be several Aerosmith songs you will need to change the key on if you want your singer (and band) to sound good. The audience doesn't care what key you do a song in as long as it sounds good.Most people can tell if you got the energy that needs, and transposing too much will soften high energy songs.
Steven Tyler has pretty much reached much of his potential (at least in the high end) and have a incredible range. He has worked very hard to be were he is, he was not born with his range. Nothing is free.
Like it or not, the lead singer is usually the defining factor in the personality of the band. Care must be taken to insure that he or she sounds the best they possibly can. If this means changing keys, and often does, that's what must be done.The vocalist is another band member, not a god. I think he should practice too.

We have now established our disagreement on this issue. In stead of going on back and forth I challenge you to answer this:

How could I go from having a short range into being able to go deeper than Johhny Cash and higher than AC/DC?

[baimun]

And I hate that acrobatic, R and B, Mariah Carey, show off every note that you have got style! Not that I could pull it off if I tried, but I still think it's way too much. Over the years I have had a few (admittedly completely naive) people ask me why I don't try out for American Idol or some such thing....

I know this is off the path of my original post... but there are many things American Idol doesn't want people to know about how their show is run. It is a TV show first... and a talent show second.

They don't have enough qualified producer/talent scouts to actually listen to every single one of the hundreds-of-thousands of people who audition each year, so the very first audition is basically a luck-of-the-draw shot.

Example: In Chicago the auditions were held at Soldier field and they had maybe a dozen tents set up. Only the middle three tents actually had producers with the "golden tickets" to let good, bad, and weird selections through to see the celebrity judges. The other 9 or so tents were "thanks for auditioning, try again next year." That's why people like Jordan Sparks had to audition 4 or 5 times in different cities before she got a second audition. It's also to keep from getting the best of every city all in one swoop.

I was too old to try out, but I took my oldest daughter who had been singing in front of festival crowds and even bands from the age of 12, when she was 18. We spent the night in the stadium with many other people who were trying out and so many people were gathering in groups to sing in the round, or with an acoustic guitar, it was pretty evident how talented so many people were. I watched every single one of them go into the outer tents, do a great tryout, and was turned away. I watched people who were marginally talented get through from being in the middle tents.

The producers didn't even try to be subtle about it... the middle three tents had the stacks of yellow sheets, and the other tables had none. :facepalm:

[Bajazz]

I personally have no problems--I have a very large range. I trained myself in my early 20's to be able to sing high, even though I'm naturally a baritone.
Not everyone can do it, though. There are limits.So you say that YOU could train your range, but not other people???:rolleyes:

And it's true that a skinny guy can't become a hulk too (w/o pharmaceutical help, that is).There is lots of examples that slim men grows big muscles. But very few men have a big muscular body without pumping iron.

[careful now]

Common sense emerges.


Oh, my peeve would be vocalists who start yakking before the song is over. :mad:

even worse, i have had singers who get on stage won't shut up and it cuts into the set list. :mad:

a microphone isn't a free pass to tell your life story. no one cares, just sing! :mad:

[SpaceNorman]

3) LSD. Get over yourself and act like a human being. So you can carry a tune in a bucket. Hooray!

Damn, I gotta start hanging out in your neck of the woods! I ain't never seen a singer actually carry anything before!!!!!

The SpaceNorman :freak:
Keyboard Player and Owner of the PA and Lights

[careful now]

Damn, I gotta start hanging out in your neck of the woods! I ain't never seen a singer actually carry anything before!!!!!

The SpaceNorman :freak:
Keyboard Player and Owner of the PA and Lights

isn't that the truth! :mad:

i could be playing some dive in reseda, but some singers act like it's madison square garden, showing up late with their little entourage, and then leaving early with the same, acting like a "rock star" the entire time. and most of these putzes aren't nearly as talented as they thing they are. :rolleyes:

guess who does the bulk of loading in and out? the tiny keyboard chick (me). :mad:

[SevenString]

Damn, I gotta start hanging out in your neck of the woods! I ain't never seen a singer actually carry anything before!!!!!

The SpaceNorman :freak:
Keyboard Player and Owner of the PA and Lights

I hear ya. I never want to be that guy, ever. :facepalm:

I like to show up early to help with equipment. I'd feel too guilty if I just showed up, sang, then left. That would be pretty lame to say the least.

No, if I can make a band-mate's experience better by helping schlep some gear, so much the better. :thu:

But man, I have heard some doozies in terms of excuses from other singers. :mad:

[Al Koehn]

Hey, I've got a pet peeve concerning singers. I took some friends over 50 miles to hear a band I had heard and liked a lot. When we got there the band had been on for a while, but the place was almost empty. (about 30 people) The lead singer was obviously pissed and let us know it. His attitude and singing were not good because he felt more people should have shown up. Not only that, he made us feel it was our fault although we drove the 50 miles, we were buying drinks, and we had paid the cover.

The more he complained the less we responded to their show. The less we responded to their show, the worse their attitude. We left after several songs. I've been an entertainer for a lot of years, and I'm aware of how much a responsive audience can turn us on and help our performance, but I still always tried to do the best I could at the time, regardless of audience response. Any comments or opinions about this?

Al

[careful now]

Hey, I've got a pet peeve concerning singers. I took some friends over 50 miles to hear a band I had heard and liked a lot. When we got there the band had been on for a while, but the place was almost empty. (about 30 people) The lead singer was obviously pissed and let us know it. His attitude and singing were not good because he felt more people should have shown up. Not only that, he made us feel it was our fault although we drove the 50 miles, we were buying drinks, and we had paid the cover.

The more he complained the less we responded to their show. The less we responded to their show, the worse their attitude. We left after several songs. I've been an entertainer for a lot of years, and I'm aware of how much a responsive audience can turn us on and help our performance, but I still always tried to do the best I could at the time, regardless or audience response. Any comments or opinions about this?

Al

i heard stories about when chris isaak was starting out. even if he was playing to just the bartender and the cocktail waitress, he gave it his all. he figured that if he won over just one person as a new fan, then it was worth it.

to me, that is a great, professional attitude. there is absolutely no excuse for putting on a poor show because of a bad turnout. :mad:

[Al Koehn]

One of the most important things I work with my students on is extending their high range This takes work and time, but it pays off. Most of my students extend their high range an octave or much more, and continue to add more notes as their muscles strengthen and coordinate. The singer should always be working to get better, and this certainly includes extending the range. But this takes time. All I'm saying is if your singer sounds like he/she is straining badly to hit notes in a particular song it doesn't help the band's image or the singer's voice, and perhaps a key change is in order until they get their range up to the task. This takes work and time. and won't happen quickly. They need to find a good teacher.

I believe the singer should work constantly to improve. You're right. Too many of them choose to cop out. I certainly don't buy that the singer "is a god."

There are many factors which create resonance and the size of the vocal cords contributes to this. However the fact still remains that a soprano, cannot sing low bass or tenor notes, and a bass will not sound like a tenor even if he sings just as high. I agree that transposing a song to fit the singer's range can damage the energy of the song if it is taken too low. However the right key for any singer to sound the best and create the most energy and excitement varies with the current existing physical abilities of that singer.

As to your question: the chances of your developing a range that goes as low as Johnny Cash and as high as AC/DC are about as good as winning the 100 million dollar lottery. Johnny Cash would never have attempted to sing as high, and try to sound like Dave Evans or Brian Johnson, and they could never cover Johnny Cash in his original keys. Johnny Cash was a bass and Dave and Brian are high tenors. The size of the vocal chords does dictate how high or low we can sing (especially how low) and still sound like we want to. Yes, a bass can often sing as high as a high tenor, but he does this by extending his falsetto, and it sounds like a bass singing in his falsetto, not a tenor. Once you figure out where the lowest note is you can comfortably sing, then you can go from there to extend the range upward to amazing high notes through exercises, especially with a good teacher.

[Bajazz]

One of the most important things I work with my students on is extending their high range This takes work and time, but it pays off. Most of my students extend their high range an octave or much more, and continue to add more notes as their muscles strengthen and coordinate. The singer should always be working to get better, and this certainly includes extending the range. But this takes time. All I'm saying is if your singer sounds like he/she is straining badly to hit notes in a particular song it doesn't help the band's image or the singer's voice, and perhaps a key change is in order until they get their range up to the task. This takes work and time. and won't happen quickly. They need to find a good teacher.I see, and that's OK as long as you don't lock yourself into limiting yourself because of bad technique. You see, I've done that myself.....:cry: A couple of songs I know I can do much better, but when I perform I go into "Safe mode" cause that is much ....eh safer. This can also be used as a excuse for not developing range and other techniques. A bad circle (is that the correct term?)
There are many factors which create resonance and the size of the vocal cords contributes to this. However the fact still remains that a soprano, cannot sing low bass or tenor notes, and a bass will not sound like a tenor even if he sings just as high. I agree that transposing a song to fit the singer's range can damage the energy of the song if it is taken too low. However the right key for any singer to sound the best and create the most energy and excitement varies with the current existing physical abilities of that singer. There are many bass and baritone singers who sing very high, and for me it only makes the sound fuller and better, take Ronnie James Dio. It's also possible to increase range in the low end. I went from a G down to a low C there. But my problem is that the voice doesn't resonate very loud down there, it's something I would like to work on if I knew how.
As to your question: the chances of your developing a range that goes as low as Johnny Cash and as high as AC/DC are about as good as winning the 100 million dollar lottery. Johnny Cash would never have attempted to sing as high, and try to sound like Dave Evans or Brian Johnson, and they could never cover Johnny Cash in his original keys. Johnny Cash was a bass and Dave and Brian are high tenors. The size of the vocal chords does dictate how high or low we can sing (especially how low) and still sound like we want to. Yes, a bass can often sing as high as a high tenor, but he does this by extending his falsetto, and it sounds like a bass singing in his falsetto, not a tenor. Once you figure out where the lowest note is you can comfortably sing, then you can go from there to extend the range upward to amazing high notes through exercises, especially with a good teacher.Again, classical bass and baritones can have beautiful high notes, without going to falsetto. But the problem for them is technique as their repertoire haven't had any notes in that are, so they doesn't have that technique. BTW, I think Johnny Cash was considered Baritone. I'm too, but it took me time to get down to those low notes. When I sing high pitched songs, such as AC/DC i don't use falsetto unless for effect.

I have been able to sing higher than high tenor C for a long time in moderate volums, but recently I joined a band who plays AC/DC, Iron Maiden, Motorhead etc.. So at my first practice I realized my volume was way to low, cause I've only nailed the SLS principles who works fine for pop, but not at all for heavy metal. When I sing the songs without straining, the volume is way to low and there is no energy. When the energy level is OK, I strain, but less for each practice. So I work with this now. I've found some tricks to help: Stand up straight, head a bit upwards, use lot's of support (called power push in heavy metal terms) and visualizing techniques. It also helps to "place" the tone forward and "thinning" out the sound. Another great excercise is to sing lot's in falsetto, it seems to help strengthening the full voice upprt tones.

[Dr.Innovation]

Just a thought, Peter Gabriel has always had a deep voice and he can do counter-tenor notes....

[Al Koehn]

Good discussion here. Lots of great input to think about. Thanks.

Al

[SpaceNorman]

I hear ya. I never want to be that guy, ever. :facepalm:

But man, I have heard some doozies in terms of excuses from other singers. :mad:

Many bands ago - we had a vocalist named Dave who was both shameless and transparent in his efforts to give the illusion that he was actually helping with schlepping without actually lifting or carrying anything. Our sound man (Big Jim - a great sound guy AND human forklift) coined a phrase during one load-in for that behavior when he shouted in a strained voice to clear a path - thinking that he was carrying something really heavy, we jumped out of the way and opened the door for him - only to watch him round the corner and enter the room carrying a single helium balloon and tell us he had a "Dave Load" coming in. :facepalm:

Ever since - anybody who walks past carrying a music stand or a single mic stand (while the rest of us are lugging cabinets, amp or keyboard cases) gets razzed mercilessly about the "Dave Load" they're lugging. :D

[3red]

saying 'yeah' or 'baby' alot

[eeglug]

I'm not fond of cookie monster vocals...

[Dr.Innovation]

I'm not fond of cookie monster vocals...

I didn't know Dijkembe Mutumbo sings? Hmm.

[Branwyn]

Pet Peeves-
1. Jaw wobble vibrato. Vibrato comes from the way you move the breath thru your cords, not your jaw. Moving the jaw creates tension in the jaw, face, and throat and is thus detrimental to your tone. I want to grab people who do this by the mouth and hold them still.
2. Vocal masturbation, i.e. the Whitney-wanking mentioned earlier. Best illustrated by R&B singers asked to sing the Star Spangled Banner at baseball games and they do it at 1/4 tempo and do so many gymnastics the whole way thru it becomes nearly unrecognizable. It's the national anthem and it's actually supposed to be at a medium uptempo speed. STFU and sing the song and get off the field. No one cares about your vocal Yngwie-like wanking.

As to the singer's range vs. the band argument, it is a give and take thing IMO. Any singer should work to expand their range, but it is eventually a finite instrument, and unfortunately usually w/a narrower range than what sounds good w/a guitar. In a way I feel kinda bad/boxed in by that, because as a singer, my instrument is more limited than my bandmates'. I have a good 5 octave range, but I'm a lyric soprano, and warbling high Ds up in the stratosphere like I learned in my opera arias just ain't gonna sound right with the Irish folk guys I play with. So it's my responsibility to work on my low range. I'll never be an low alto...I'll always be more Joni Mitchell than Carole King. But I will work on getting better. Conversely, I need the folks I play with to be willing to slap a capo on when I'm at the limit of my current range of what sounds good. I can work, but it's not an instantaneous transformation, and b/c I have small cords, no matter what I'll only ever get so low.

[Dr.Innovation]

Pet Peeves-
1. Jaw wobble vibrato. Vibrato comes from the way you move the breath thru your cords, not your jaw. Moving the jaw creates tension in the jaw, face, and throat and is thus detrimental to your tone. I want to grab people who do this by the mouth and hold them still.
2. Vocal masturbation, i.e. the Whitney-wanking mentioned earlier. Best illustrated by R&B singers asked to sing the Star Spangled Banner at baseball games and they do it at 1/4 tempo and do so many gymnastics the whole way thru it becomes nearly unrecognizable. It's the national anthem and it's actually supposed to be at a medium uptempo speed. STFU and sing the song and get off the field. No one cares about your vocal Yngwie-like wanking.

I was going to bring up the same points but you nailed it better than I could have said it:thu:

Most ALL RnB acts do the erratic moving of the head to create the voice changes that decent singers do with their breath..

[Lee Flier]

Hey, I've got a pet peeve concerning singers. I took some friends over 50 miles to hear a band I had heard and liked a lot. When we got there the band had been on for a while, but the place was almost empty. (about 30 people) The lead singer was obviously pissed and let us know it. His attitude and singing were not good because he felt more people should have shown up. Not only that, he made us feel it was our fault although we drove the 50 miles, we were buying drinks, and we had paid the cover.

The more he complained the less we responded to their show. The less we responded to their show, the worse their attitude. We left after several songs. I've been an entertainer for a lot of years, and I'm aware of how much a responsive audience can turn us on and help our performance, but I still always tried to do the best I could at the time, regardless of audience response. Any comments or opinions about this?


Oh yeah, totally agree. That singer had no right to have that attitude - the people he's mad at are the ones who aren't even there! There is no excuse, ever, to not give your all to whoever is there, and you'll make fans for life if you can play for 10 of them the same way you'd play for 10,000.

Case in point, my band played a gig once over the 4th of July weekend, and nearly everyone was out of town or entertaining relatives or friends. There were literally like 6 people in the club. But we went out and played our asses off, didn't treat it any differently from any other show. And at the end of the show, every one of those 6 people came up and bought a CD, and every one of them subsequently went to more shows. They were so appreciative that we gave our all for them, and not too many bands can say they had a 100% sale to target ratio. :D

As far as I'm concerned there's no point in getting up on a stage at all if you're not going to give it everything you've got, regardless of the situation. Might as well stay home and watch TV.

[Bryan316]

Cigarette smoke. I can't WAIT until smoking is finally uncool and completely ran out of society.


Sound guys who flip out when I want to use MY microphone. Sorry you mediocre prick, but my mic is better than your beat-to-shit house mics, and I prefer my audience to be able to UNDERSTAND my singing. That, and I ain't using the same mic that death metal cookie monster yogurt gargler just used before me. I ain't a germophobe, but you can't tell me to ignore the crabs that jumped from his Kerry King beard and started crawling on the windscreen!

SHIT monitors. Why, oh why, can't somebody just order up some BFM full-range monitors? Please? I'll build em FOR you if you just let me!!!

And of course....




...ugly chicks in the front row.

[rhat]

I guess for me, its people who have the vocals on their myspace page and CDs cooked so hard by the fix meisters at the studio. You hear a band on their page and you hear great vocals ,,, when you pay the cover ,, they sound lifeless and dead and pitchy.

[loveyourstarfish]

No offense Bajazz, but considering Al is a long time professional singing teacher, he probably knows what he's talking about :P.

Also, while range obviously can be improved a lot, your natural voice, etc cannot. I have a large range and am a tenor but its silly to be saying you can nail above high C when you admit that you are singing too low in practice. If you are nailing these metal songs, you're going to have to be singing them with your full voice and not going into a weak mix sound or really heady.

For what its worth, I've been training using the SLS method for awhile here in vancouver.

[Bajazz]

No offense Bajazz, but considering Al is a long time professional singing teacher, he probably knows what he's talking about :P. Vocal coach/teacher myself too.... :)
Also, while range obviously can be improved a lot, your natural voice, etc cannot. I have a large range and am a tenor but its silly to be saying you can nail above high C when you admit that you are singing too low in practice. If you are nailing these metal songs, you're going to have to be singing them with your full voice and not going into a weak mix sound or really heady.No matter if you're a singer/coach or whatever it doesn't mean you can master all aspects of singing. I have been performing professianally since 80's, but Not much heavy metal. Some hard rock and lot''s of rock, pop, country etc where SLS is nice. Classical and opera was never my strengths.
AC/DC seems to be easier to nail than for instance DIO (even if it goes higher) cause the compression and grit seems to help the cords to zip correctly at loud volumes.

About the high C: I could sing it tensionfree in SLS in volume 7 of 10 at full voice (not falsetto or weak mix) for years. Now I'm beginning to learn how to do it heavy metal-wise which isn't the easiest way. And me being slow learning 39 y.o Baritone says that most people should be able to do it. And all all I'm doing is a bit daily training and focusing on the technique while trying to change the way I sing those difficult songs. It's takes time, cause my auto-pilot kicks me into SLS-mode when going into those heights.

[Dr.Innovation]

Vocal coach/teacher myself too.... :)
No matter if you're a singer/coach or whatever it doesn't mean you can master all aspects of singing. I have been performing professianally since 80's, but Not much heavy metal. Some hard rock and lot''s of rock, pop, country etc where SLS is nice. Classical and opera was never my strengths.

It also doesn't mean that "anyone" can't master all aspects of singing either.

[loveyourstarfish]

Vocal coach/teacher myself too.... :)
No matter if you're a singer/coach or whatever it doesn't mean you can master all aspects of singing. I have been performing professianally since 80's, but Not much heavy metal. Some hard rock and lot''s of rock, pop, country etc where SLS is nice. Classical and opera was never my strengths.
AC/DC seems to be easier to nail than for instance DIO (even if it goes higher) cause the compression and grit seems to help the cords to zip correctly at loud volumes.

About the high C: I could sing it tensionfree in SLS in volume 7 of 10 at full voice (not falsetto or weak mix) for years. Now I'm beginning to learn how to do it heavy metal-wise which isn't the easiest way. And me being slow learning 39 y.o Baritone says that most people should be able to do it. And all all I'm doing is a bit daily training and focusing on the technique while trying to change the way I sing those difficult songs. It's takes time, cause my auto-pilot kicks me into SLS-mode when going into those heights.

I had initially thought you were shit talking teen at first-my bad:lol:

I'm sort of going through something similar right now, as SLS method is working great and I can comfortably sing my stuff, but would like to get the power and growl of some not so "technically great" singers like Chris Cornell but without thrashing my voice.

[crewdog151]

Great post Al!

Quote:
Originally Posted by astring
McCain dumped his handicapped wife for a much younger (and richer) girl.
McCain was into the adultery thing big time (again he was married to that gal who was in the wheelchair).
McCain divorced his handicapped wife and married the much younger much richer gal.
Cindy (the rich young one) was a drug addict.
Cindy stole massive amounts of drugs from a charity that helped poor third world kids.
The McCains engaged in an unethical coverup that fucked up people's lives.




I'm so glad to see the Idiots of the world have their say here too! Some comedian used to say that stupid people should carry a sign, I'm glad to see that in this arena some of them can do just that! :poke::facepalm:

[pmtrub]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

Range aside. No matter what your range is, there are still sweet spots and specific keys where your voice sounds it's best.

[Bajazz]

Range aside. No matter what your range is, there are still sweet spots and specific keys where your voice sounds it's best.Just another area to work on.

From the first sound you made until the first song you performed it took many hours of using the voice. This was all practice. Some tend to think it's just was there at the beginning, but the only thing we can do with our newborn voice is to cry. From there we copy the people around us and try to do what they do.

Learning and practice is just not something that happens when we take lessons and sing scales. It's a process that's constantly in work. Whether we learn or not depends on focus, opening your mind and repetition.

That's why I think it's strange that som people think that suddenly at one point our voice is carved in stone and can't be changed. You might try to tell me "ok, but you learn much slower at age and can't do any major changes" I call it a myth. Tests show that age and experiencer make you learn faster. But this only works if you are open minded.

If you think you can do it or not do it, you are in both cases right!!

[Terry Allan Hall]

Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Sure, a guitar player can capo a tune in C up to C# with no problems, but if the singer wants to take it down to Bb and there are a lot of embellishments involving open C and G chords, it's a completely different story.

Also, God help the singer who insists on key changes and then gets impatient on stage when you are fumbling around with a capo and trying to tune your guitar, or tuning the whole thing down to Eb or D. :evil:





Recordings was made in that vocalist's natural key/range...You can only take a voice so far out of it's natural range, while any good guitarist can play any song in any key.

Some guitarist will use a guitar strung a little heavier and tuned down a whole step for some songs, like when you want to play a song w/ "E" riffs, but sing it comfortably in "D".

[Terry Allan Hall]

i heard stories about when chris isaak was starting out. even if he was playing to just the bartender and the cocktail waitress, he gave it his all. he figured that if he won over just one person as a new fan, then it was worth it.

to me, that is a great, professional attitude. there is absolutely no excuse for putting on a poor show because of a bad turnout. :mad:

:thu: X 1,000!

[JTEES4]

I suck at singing...that's my biggest pet peeve.

[Bryan316]

i heard stories about when chris isaak was starting out. even if he was playing to just the bartender and the cocktail waitress, he gave it his all. he figured that if he won over just one person as a new fan, then it was worth it.

to me, that is a great, professional attitude. there is absolutely no excuse for putting on a poor show because of a bad turnout. :mad:



EXACTLY! I've never treated any gig like a small gig. When I'm on the stage, I'm just as insane and maniacal and exhausted afterwards no matter the crowd size. Always be professional, always look good and sound better, always engage the crowd, always give everything you got. Cuz the bar owner might be watching, and realise how much he likes your band BECAUSE you gave it your all for an empty bar.

When Edguy last came to the I-Rock and played for 30 people, compared to their usual 20,000 European festival audiences, they STILL ripped it up! When Kamelot did a show in Minneapolis for maaaaybe 300 people compared to Wacken Open Air's typical 300,000, they STILL brought their whole stage setup with crazy lights and smoke and everything and played 2 hours solid.

Professionalism goes a long way.

[careful now]

here is another one that has led to a lot of wasted time auditioning singers:

a singer's real abilities are often inversely proportionate to the amount of smack he or she talks. :mad:

no more. now, if in the initial phone conversation, the singer is the least bit of an ego-maniacal me-monkey, i say, "thank you for your time.", and hang up. maybe by doing this i am missing out on the next great rock singer of our generation, but somehow i really, really doubt it.

[MDLMUSIC]

I am a singer/guitarist who works as a hired gun in a bunch of local bands, as well as having my own R&R trio and doing solo work.

One of my biggest complaints is singers who insist on doing a song in what I would consider a strange key when by moving it up or down a step, it could easily be played and, in all likelihood, not affect his or her performance. For example, I worked with one band where the girl singer insisted on doing "Old Time Rock and Roll" in C#. Yeah, I know it's only three chords (in her case, C#, F#, and G#) but I asked if she could either move it up to D or down to C so that I could use the low open strings on a few of the chords to get more of a rock and roll sound. She told me that she could only sing it in that key. So I capoed at the 4th fret and played it in A.

The other problem I have seen is with singers who think they know more than professional soundmen when it comes to making them sound good in a particular venue. I once worked with a latin singer who insisted that the soundman had to set her voice so it was all treble, no bass, and full on reverb. Of course this made her sound like she was singing from the bottom of deep well. I took the soundman aside and told him to set it up that way in her stage monitors, but do it correctly for the mains and for everybody else's monitors. Which is what he did. After the show the singer went over and told the soundman, "See, I know just how to set up the system for my voice."

[Bajazz]

Yes! It's just like the guys who tune the guitar down 1/2 step because it's much easier to sing then... :rolleyes:

Its' been some talk about whether range is expandable, but let's ask the question a bit different:
- Do you think you have reached your full potential as a singer? I bet you aren't even close!

I thought that I couldn't reach higher, so I started to work on different areas: vibrato, techniques, sound, distortion etc... After a while my range had decreased a bit so I decided to work it back, only I gained some extra notes. So I started a little push-pull game with my vocals, and after a while, everything was more fun and exciting. I kept pushing further, a little at a time.

I now see singing as a ongoing tour and learn new things along the way. I might practice 30 minutes a day and sometimes 5 hours, but the most important is that I do something everyday. I hate boring excercises, so I need much variation and try to make things fun. One of the things I like to do is play the Singstar (karaoke) game on Playstation. After practicing hours for days on difficulty "hard" I score 95% and I can clearly hear my pitch is much better. I also tested myself on a online pitch test and score much better after a week with lot's of Singstar playing. (See attachment) Not bad for a guy who had a hard time tuning his own guitar.

Then again I am very dedicated. I know hard work pays off. I'm lazy by nature, so I have to fool myself into making it all seem like having fun instead of work. There are lot's of demanding excercises I skip because I haven't made them fun yet. So I'll need to apply the "work smart, not hard" on those too. And maybe some day I will reach a tiny bit of my potential...

BTW: Sing like there's no tomorrow!!:wave:

[JacieFB]

One of my biggest complaints is singers who insist on doing a song in what I would consider a strange key when by moving it up or down a step, it could easily be played and, in all likelihood, not affect his or her performance. For example, I worked with one band where the girl singer insisted on doing "Old Time Rock and Roll" in C#. Yeah, I know it's only three chords (in her case, C#, F#, and G#) but I asked if she could either move it up to D or down to C so that I could use the low open strings on a few of the chords to get more of a rock and roll sound. She told me that she could only sing it in that key. So I capoed at the 4th fret and played it in A.




This is totally an experience/confidence thing. When I first started out singing with the group I am with now, I would do a similar thing. We do a lot of songs that I've heard a zillion times, so I have the original album pitch etched in my head. I hadn't been singing that much for a few months prior to joining the group. It was easier for me to reference what I had in my head rather than depend on...well...it's hard to know what to depend on when you're first joining a group. Will it be a great monitor situation? Will you be able to hear guitar? Bass? Other vocals? Etc. As I got more comfortable (and set up practice like an on-stage monitor mix), I was a lot more comfortable really being in the song with the other musicians and not just depending on what was in my head. Honestly, I'd say cut her some slack, especially if it's not your band. If she's sang something 1000 times in the same key, it's likely gonna sound a heck of a lot better if she sings it the 1001st time instead of having a sub guitarist come in and move the key around. As a musician, she should be able to move it around, though, I see your point. It's definitely something to work for.

[Bajazz]

And my repeat button is still pushed down, Here I go:

What's wrong with practice? Is it so hard to take a few hours and come together and play/sing songs or to sit at home and sing along to mp3 tracks?

Everything is so instant today, we demand results at once. Everybody wants fame and fortune for free.

It's not OK to give up if you can't do it right away: You are supposed to try until you can do it! It might take 10 tryouts, or it's gonna take 241 291 or zillion times.

But' that's the standard today when you've reached a certain level, especially singers: Stop getting better and start being a diva!

[vanlatte]

Pet Peeves-
1. Jaw wobble vibrato. Vibrato comes from the way you move the breath thru your cords, not your jaw. Moving the jaw creates tension in the jaw, face, and throat and is thus detrimental to your tone. I want to grab people who do this by the mouth and hold them still.
2. Vocal masturbation, i.e. the Whitney-wanking mentioned earlier. Best illustrated by R&B singers asked to sing the Star Spangled Banner at baseball games and they do it at 1/4 tempo and do so many gymnastics the whole way thru it becomes nearly unrecognizable. It's the national anthem and it's actually supposed to be at a medium uptempo speed. STFU and sing the song and get off the field. No one cares about your vocal Yngwie-like wanking.




*golf claps*

:thu:

[BigMac5]

Sound guys who flip out when I want to use MY microphone. Sorry you mediocre prick, but my mic is better than your beat-to-shit house mics, and I prefer my audience to be able to UNDERSTAND my singing. That, and I ain't using the same mic that death metal cookie monster yogurt gargler just used before me. I ain't a germophobe, but you can't tell me to ignore the crabs that jumped from his Kerry King beard and started crawling on the windscreen!

SHIT monitors. Why, oh why, can't somebody just order up some BFM full-range monitors? Please? I'll build em FOR you if you just let me!!!
These sound like sound man pet peeves, not singing pet peeves.