Singing for non singers - the quickest fix for my students

[Mark Wein]

Disclaimer - I am not a professionally trained vocalist..I am a college educated guitarist who works as a guitarist because he can sing :)

I teach performance classes in my studio and while we have a great vocal staff (5 instructors with Masters Degrees from places Manhattan School of Music, USC and Chapman university) I end up having to do some coaching with the students in the classes who are instrumentalists that do not take voice instruction.

Besides the obvious task of teaching them to breath properly my quickest fix is getting them to pronounce vowel sounds better and feel the resonance on their head in the proper place. Since you carry most pitch duration on a vowel sound if we sing those better they will usually sing in tune better.


"E" - pronounce the word "feet" - feel the vowel behind the front of your mouth or teeth.

"eh" or "eye" - pronounce the word "High" - feel the vowel in your forehead and sinuses around the nose.

"A" - - pronounce the word "hay" - feel the vowel in the top of your head, or envision it a column that is shooting up through the top of your head from your throat.


"o" or "oh" - pronounce the word "boat" - feel the vowel in the "top and back" of your head and passing diagonally down to your mouth.

"u" or "oooh" - pronounce the word "you" - feel the vowel from the back of your throat shooting straight out the front of your mouth.


Try singing a little bit of your favorite song but really focus on feeling the vowels in the words that you are singing in this fashion...see if you sing more in tune!


Properly trained vocalists probably have other (and better) ways of doing this but I has gotten quite a bit of progress out of untrained singers with this little nugget :)

[Al Koehn]

What Mark advised concerning "feeling" the vowels is powerful stuff. Notice that he described all of the vowels as being felt in the head, not down in the throat. The only time he mentions feeling a vowel in the throat is concerning the "oo" (too-do-new) And even then he describes the feeling as being at the back, not the bottom, of the throat-aimed toward the top front of the mouth. If you are confused as to what all of this means try yelling a powerful "hey!!" a few times, like you're trying to catch someone's attention from across the room. Keep the sound bright and punchy, not "throaty." Notice how there is a definite feeling of the sound in the forehead. After you've tried this a few times begin to sing some sustained or 5-note scale "ee"s and try to get the same feeling. Once you experience the feeling of mentally directing (not forcing) the sound into the forehead area play around with the other vowels. Then begin to apply Terry's advice concerning more specific feelings with the various vowels.

Al

[Mark Wein]

What Terry advised concerning "feeling" the vowels is powerful stuff. Notice that he described all of the vowels as being felt in the head, not down in the throat. The only time he mentions feeling a vowel in the throat is concerning the "oo" (too-do-new) And even then he describes the feeling as being at the back, not the bottom, of the throat-aimed toward the top front of the mouth. If you are confused as to what all of this means try yelling a powerful "hey!!" a few times, like you're trying to catch someone's attention from across the room. Keep the sound bright and punchy, not "throaty." Notice how there is a definite feeling of the sound in the forehead. After you've tried this a few times begin to sing some sustained or 5-note scale "ee"s and try to get the same feeling. Once you experience the feeling of mentally directing (not forcing) the sound into the forehead area play around with the other vowels. Then begin to apply Terry's advice concerning more specific feelings with the various vowels.

Al


Hi Al!

Where is Terrys advice?

[Al Koehn]

You mean Mark isn't spelled T-e-r-r-y? Sorry. I was talking about your good advice. (I edited the mistake)

Al

[Mark Wein]

You mean Mark isn't spelled T-e-r-r-y? Sorry. I was talking about your good advice. (I edited the mistake)

Al


:D

Thanks!

[remi8765@aol.co]

hear this http://www.redkaraoke.com/profile/chrissycrunch/recordings/3730

i gurantee you will love her singing and she never took a singing lesson in her life she was given this gift from god!!

[AaronF]

Nice thread! I'm getting some use out of it. I can hit a pitch, no problem, but the tone of my voice is horrid.

[Mark Wein]

Nice thread! I'm getting some use out of it. I can hit a pitch, no problem, but the tone of my voice is horrid.

Thanks!

A couple things I try to get my students to understand is that you really shouldn't try to sing a word differently than you would speak it...sometimes when they are trying to sound "cool" or "rock and roll" or emulate their favorite singer they squish their vowel sounds or tighten up the muscles in their neck/throat...never good.

Are you feeling the resonance of the sound in your head and sinuses? For me its almost as if the air is escaping my head through every hole - ears, nose, mouth....its not but everything feels full of resonance without me pushing or straining to be "bigger" or "louder"....

[Verence]

Thanks! I'll try it.

[AaronF]

Thanks!

A couple things I try to get my students to understand is that you really shouldn't try to sing a word differently than you would speak it...sometimes when they are trying to sound "cool" or "rock and roll" or emulate their favorite singer they squish their vowel sounds or tighten up the muscles in their neck/throat...never good.

I have a bit of a problem with this. I don't consciously try to pronounce things differently, it just happens - which I guess is why singing isn't natural to me. I've been really hard on myself when I find a word or consonant sound ("R" sounds are sometimes the hardest for me) that I have problems singing, I keep drilling those.



Are you feeling the resonance of the sound in your head and sinuses? For me its almost as if the air is escaping my head through every hole - ears, nose, mouth....its not but everything feels full of resonance without me pushing or straining to be "bigger" or "louder"....
This I think is my biggest problem I'm not really sure how I am supposed to allow my nasal passages and my throat to interact. I have a very back of the throat/sinus type voice - that's where I feel most of the vibrating when I speak (people tell my my speaking changes tones a lot, I guess I don't have much control over it). When I sing, it is really hard to know how I should allow those parts to interact. I should probably get some in-person lessons with someone, that would let me know whether or not I could be a semi-decent singer or I'm just total shite.

[Mark Wein]

I have a bit of a problem with this. I don't consciously try to pronounce things differently, it just happens - which I guess is why singing isn't natural to me. I've been really hard on myself when I find a word or consonant sound ("R" sounds are sometimes the hardest for me) that I have problems singing, I keep drilling those.



This I think is my biggest problem I'm not really sure how I am supposed to allow my nasal passages and my throat to interact. I have a very back of the throat/sinus type voice - that's where I feel most of the vibrating when I speak (people tell my my speaking changes tones a lot, I guess I don't have much control over it). When I sing, it is really hard to know how I should allow those parts to interact. I should probably get some in-person lessons with someone, that would let me know whether or not I could be a semi-decent singer or I'm just total shite.

Finding a good local instructor for even a few lessons might be your best bet...try working with the vowels a little bit I guess but it sounds like having an instructor actually hearing you would be the quickest fix.


I don't think many people are unable to sing...sometimes it just takes more effort or guidance...I'm a perfect example of that :)

[Mark Wein]

Thanks! I'll try it.

:thu:

[remi8765@aol.co]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrODomzmw24

[remi8765@aol.co]

http://www.redkaraoke.com/profile/chrissycrunch/recordings/1046

listen to this voice!

[remi8765@aol.co]

listen to this!!!http://www.redkaraoke.com/profile/chrissycrunch/recordings/3816

[Jersey Jack]

listen to this!!!http://www.redkaraoke.com/profile/chrissycrunch/recordings/3816

Hey Remi8765,

Thanks for posting this stuff, but can you give us a little guidance about your intentions? :confused: I'm not sure what these recordings have to do with the thread. It seems as if they are randomly posted here. If you simply want people to listen to this stuff, start a new thread and give us a reason.

E.g., This is me, how do I sound? This recording exhibits the flaw (or the virtue) we're discussing. I'm not sure what's worng with this performance-can anyone tell me? Etc., etc.

Without this information, it's hard to know how to respond.

[remi8765@aol.co]

the reason i am posting this is because this girl never took a singing lesson in her life!!!

[SevenString]

the reason i am posting this is because this girl never took a singing lesson in her life!!!

Re. the RockBand clip you posted, that one was a waste of time if you wanted someone to hear what the singer sounds like. See this clip for an explanations as to why I seriously dislike that clip:

GP2alR39Qzw

That said, the other two karaoke clips seem to show some promise. In my opinion, she seems to have a good basic quality to her voice, and I liked the Fleetwood Mac clip better than the Madonna clip.

However, she seems "pitchy", meaning that she is often just a little bit off where the placement of the notes is concerned.

Voice lessons and some regular practice of formal exercises, particularly scales and arpeggios, could help clear this up. My opinion is that such training would help her to be more consistently "on-pitch".

[rhat]

hear this http://www.redkaraoke.com/profile/chrissycrunch/recordings/3730

i gurantee you will love her singing and she never took a singing lesson in her life she was given this gift from god!!


She does ok on pitch ,, but its kind of dead on performance. She isnt really letting the lyrics out with any degree of passion. It sounds like she is holding back or just singing out her mouth. Her timing isnt very strong either

[SevenString]

She does ok on pitch ,, but its kind of dead on performance. She isnt really letting the lyrics out with any degree of passion. It sounds like she is holding back or just singing out her mouth. Her timing isnt very strong either

Yeah, that too, but even slight pitch problems drive me batshit, so I'd rather hear that "fixed" before any of the other issues. That's a personal pet-peeve, so other listeners' mileages may vary. ;)

IMO, if you sing like Ann Wilson, Pavarotti, or Geoff Tate, then being proud never having had lessons is fine.

Otherwise, maybe not so much.

[NeverTheMachine]

Terry Wein is da man!

[Mark Wein]

Terry Wein is da man!

LOL

Suddenly I have many names....:facepalm:

[grace_slick]

IMO, if you sing like Ann Wilson, Pavarotti, or Geoff Tate, then being proud never having had lessons is fine.

Otherwise, maybe not so much.

YES! I fully agree. I am my own example of this actually. For years, before I was enlightened by how lacking I am vocally (nobody jump on me for this. I have a hard time with certain vocal things, ok!? I'm not putting myself down, I'm just saying I have issues I want to address and I'm not where I want to be vocally, that's all, lol), I thought I was SO impressive for never having had any lessons. HAH!

I don't think anyone necessarily NEEDS lessons. I don't think Ann Wilson had lessons before they began performing, but she may have had maintenance vocal coaching, as many big singers do. *shrug*

Now that I'm older and a bit wiser, I see lessons as something to help you improve on your natural talent...but it's not anything relevant or significant to boast about being good if you've had none. *shrug*

[macro_grp02]

Singing is all about passion and no trainer can tell you that. If you're not that a good singer, you can ask for a coach especially if you think you can push it more. It's challenging but it can be done.

[Mark Wein]

wow...this thread is back from the dead...I total forgot about it :D

[Jersey Jack]

Well, it's a good thread and I'm happy to have the reminder.

Which reminds me: You don't include the AH vowel in your original list. Where does this one go?

The AH is especially hard for me--keeps wobbling! :facepalm:

[Mark Wein]

Well, it's a good thread and I'm happy to have the reminder.

Which reminds me: You don't include the AH vowel in your original list. Where does this one go?

The AH is especially hard for me--keeps wobbling! :facepalm:
:D


I feel it in the same place as the "eh":

eh" or "eye" - pronounce the word "High" - feel the vowel in your forehead and sinuses around the nose.

I mights as well put a little plug here, too....one of the "real" voice instructors in my teaching studio is offering lessons via webcam: http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6403&highlight=courtney

I've been teaching guitar this way for a couple of years but voice is our newest offering!

[grace_slick]

I can’t master this vowel thing. Whenever I say all the vowels, I feel a vibration in my upper throat. If I put my hand right under my chin, touching where the back of the chin meets the beginning of the neck, it’s deep in there. ALL the vowel sounds. No wonder I can’t sing!!!! *anguish* lol

[SeVeReDmUd]

I can’t master this vowel thing. Whenever I say all the vowels, I feel a vibration in my upper throat. If I put my hand right under my chin, touching where the back of the chin meets the beginning of the neck, it’s deep in there. ALL the vowel sounds. No wonder I can’t sing!!!! *anguish* lol

GRACE..... I believe what you are doing is CORRECT. That is your "head voice"
Head resonance....the vibration is a good thing. it should vibrate your face mask area too....around the nose area.

YOU'RE SINGING RIGHT! I think....if I understand correctly.:lol:;)

[Toneranger24]

great post mark with the vowels i think my singer will benefit greatly from this

[Mark Wein]

great post mark with the vowels i think my singer will benefit greatly from this


Thanks! its probably the only good advice I can give someone trying to sing :D

[Mamma Cat]

What Mark advised concerning "feeling" the vowels is powerful stuff. Notice that he described all of the vowels as being felt in the head, not down in the throat. The only time he mentions feeling a vowel in the throat is concerning the "oo" (too-do-new) And even then he describes the feeling as being at the back, not the bottom, of the throat-aimed toward the top front of the mouth. If you are confused as to what all of this means try yelling a powerful "hey!!" a few times, like you're trying to catch someone's attention from across the room. Keep the sound bright and punchy, not "throaty." Notice how there is a definite feeling of the sound in the forehead. After you've tried this a few times begin to sing some sustained or 5-note scale "ee"s and try to get the same feeling. Once you experience the feeling of mentally directing (not forcing) the sound into the forehead area play around with the other vowels. Then begin to apply Terry's advice concerning more specific feelings with the various vowels.

Al


My teacher always tells me to feel the air flow hitting the front hard palate ridge, could this be the same thing, just put in different words?

[GoldenSongBird]

Thanks Mark for thanks for that info, I couldn't have explained it better.
Hi there you all, I'm a Newbie here to this forum and from what I've been reading you guys are seriously working on your craft.

I've been a Vocal Coach for the last 7-8 years helping all kinds of Singers. Right now I've just finish developing another Singing Course Online which goes into depth about this very same subject.

So thank you for talking about it.

Peace&Blessings
Tanesha

[Mark Wein]

Thanks Mark for thanks for that info, I couldn't have explained it better.
Hi there you all, I'm a Newbie here to this forum and from what I've been reading you guys are seriously working on your craft.

I've been a Vocal Coach for the last 7-8 years helping all kinds of Singers. Right now I've just finish developing another Singing Course Online which goes into depth about this very same subject.

So thank you for talking about it.

Peace&Blessings
TaneshaNo problem!

I teach guitar for a living (I own a music school in California) and my post is part of my very small bad of advice that I can give the vocalists in our performance classes at the studio....I'm glad I got it right!

Thanks again!


Mark