What key is this in?

[Braingate]

If a song has a chord progression of C to A#, then D# to F, and then to G, what key is that?

The guy who made this song up that uses this progression says it is in the key of C. But that doesnt seem right to me. I dont know a lot of theory, but the little I do know leads me to believe it is in some other key? Maybe Im retarded, I don't know :)

So any insight to this would be awesome.


Also does anyone know of some sort of online tool I could use to find answers to questions like that? :D

I hate having to make a new thread to ask a pretty newb-ish question like this .


Thanks.

[Jed]

If you respell the chords into a more common form you get:

C is the Imaj chord
Bb would be the bVII a "borrowed chord"
Eb would be the bIII a "borrowed chord"
F is the IVmaj chord
G is the Vmaj chord

For both "borrowed chords" you can safely think in terms of C dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb

You can certainly say this is in the key of C but it's not strictly diatonic to C major. The best way to learn this stuff is to study the diatonic progressions of the 12 keys and then get into the parallel keys vs modes. No online tools that I know of. It's really best to learn to do this yourself.

cheers,

[mcracecars]

..

[Jed]

Depending how you think you can call the song in the key of C.

So over the C F & G chords you just play the kind of stuff you normally would.

Over the C chord - C major scale - concentrate on notes like E G D A, toss in a bit of B natural just before the transition to the Bb chord. Or grab a big fat Bb note to hang on a couple of beats before the Bb chord to anticipate the Bb chord change.

Over the Bb - you could "think: in terms of a Bb maj (via Bb Lydian) or a C7 chord via the C mixolydian mode - concentrate on notes like Bb D E G

Over the Eb - you could "think: in terms of a Eb maj (via Eb Lydian) or a C-7 chord via the C dorian mode - concentrate on notes like Eb Bb D etc. Or grab a big fat A natural note to hang on a couple of beats before the F chord to anticipate the chord change to F.

Back to the C major scale over the F chord - concentrate on notes like A C G D

Back to the C major scale over the G chord - concentrate on notes like G B D F A E - anything BUT C.

[Jed]

Jed, I am not familiar with borrowed chords.... could you explain please

A "borrowed" chord is a chord borrowed from a parallel mode of the same tonic.

Take the diatonic progression of C major - as 7th chords:
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5
Imaj7 IImin7 IIImin7 IVmaj7 V7 VImin7 VIImin7b5

Now look at the parallel mode of C mixolydian (= to F major):
C7 Dmin7 Emin7b5 Fmaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmaj7
I7 IImin7 IIImin7b5 IVmaj7 Vmin7 VImin7 bVIImaj7

Now look at the parallel mode of C dorian (= to Bb major):
Cmin7 Dmin7 Ebmaj7 F7 Gmin7 Amin7b5 Bbmaj7
Imin7 IImin7 bIIImaj7 IV7 Vmin7 VImin7b5 bVIImaj7

Basically you can take a song written diatonic to C major like:
C > Bdim > Emin > F > G > C

and borrow chords from other modes of C like this:
C > Bbmaj > Ebmaj > F > G > C

So in this case the Bbmaj and Ebmaj chords are borrowed from two closely related modes or from the same mode. Because the borrowed chords are so closely related to the diatonic chords every sounds great. You really need to get into the chord spellings and the study of various keys and modes to see this kind of thing easily. I hope that makes a little sense.

cheers,

[Jed]

when someone writes a song with a bunch of chords thrown in, it is hard to determine what the intent was.
just from the chords I would guess the key of Bb seems to fit.

rename the chords from C A# D# F G
to................................C Bb Eb F G
put them in the correct order Bb C Eb F G
The proper chords for the key would be Bb Cm Eb F Gm
The progression would be ii-I-IV-V-vi

The problem with your approach is that the C chord (IImin) would be minor everywhere and it is not.
And the G (VImin) chord would be minor everywhere and it is not.

Time to learn some theory . . . it only looks scary when you don't know it. There are lots of really cool things you'll learn about writing songs and how to improv with some really nice and solid sounding stuff.

[Jasco]

Without hearing the rhythms and durations of the chords it's difficult for me to tell you exactly what 'key(s)' I'd play over this progression.

Jed's theoretical analysis is technically correct. However, there is an alternate simpler solution that would also sound more like what you would usually hear over a set of chords like this, in a rock environment.

If you'll notice, all the chords a major, and they are all based on notes from the C minor pentatonic scale. Strings of major chords like this in a song can usually be treated just like power chords, that is, ignoring their "major" chord quality. Especially for the tonic chord.

So for the simplicities sake, which is what most rock players are going to do, just play C minor pentatonic over it and it will probably sound just fine.

Chord progressions like this are usually made by young rockers who have been hacking away at their axe for a couple years without bothering to note the different between major and minor.

[Braingate]

If you'll notice, all the chords a major, and they are all based on notes from the C minor pentatonic scale. Strings of major chords like this in a song can usually be treated just like power chords, that is, ignoring their "major" chord quality. Especially for the tonic chord.

So for the simplicities sake, which is what most rock players are going to do, just play C minor pentatonic over it and it will probably sound just fine.

Chord progressions like this are usually made by young rockers who have been hacking away at their axe for a couple years without bothering to note the different between major and minor.

This is exactly how this song was made up :D

It's a reggae type tune though, if that matters.


But the guy was explaining it was in C because he based it off the C pentatonic scale.


Thanks for the info though guys! Very helpful :)

[deepblue]

Key=C

[gennation]

Key=C

As Jed explained too.

On staff paper the progression would be written in one Key, but that doesn't mean every chord has to belong to the Key. And, while I completely understand the borrowed chord theory 100%, I think for the "playing aspect" the Key changes every time you leave the Key, and to follow it you NEED to change scales.

So, in relation to the Key you can see the Roman Numerals and how they are represented against it, as Jed pointed out. But it's now up to you to find out what to play...the Roman Numerals will not tell you this.

When ever I play a progression of chords that are all in the same Key I tend to just "playing in Key". All the ideas of using Modes and such are more of a burden in this case. Modes are not Keys, they are tonal centers and if I stay in C, may tonal center doesn't change when playing other chords in the smae Key. So, just play in Key.

When doing jazz standards I try to just change Keys when the Key changes and then play in the new Key when things change. Again, no modal consideration.

But, see how Jed laid out the Major scale and then the parallel modes? And see list C Dorian for Bb and Eb? In your progressions things do not stay the same for every chord, they don't stay in one Key completely. Certain chords get a completely new scale.

In the case of your progression you need to change to a new Mode when you leave C Major. So, when you find chords that aren't in C Major you need to see where to go with the next scale. I haven't try your progression but I think Jed's C Major->C Dorian-C Major will get you going for sure.

You can think of this as Key changes or as a Modal progression. Since the C F and G are C Major, but the Bb and Eb are not you need to change your scale, Key, or Mode how ever you want to term it.

So, a lot of times "what Key is this in" will not give you a whole lot of information about playing over it, except to know when you won't be playing in the Key anymore...like Bb ad Eb in your progression.

[1001gear]

The F to G back to C forms a very strong IV - V - I resolution. If only major triads are used and no contrary voice leading is introduced, this progression will center itself on C major.

[gennation]

The F to G back to C forms a very strong IV - V - I resolution. If only major triads are used and no contrary voice leading is introduced, this progression will center itself on C major.

You might want to change "this progression will center itself on C major" to "it will eventually resolve itself to C major".

Because, in a progression like this it won't always "center" itself on C Major. In simple terms you can say it will center itself on "C" if you want because C is still the tonal center of C Major->C Dorian->C Major. "Key wise" that would be C Major->Bb Major->C Major.

C "Major" isn't a "tonal center" it's a "Key", C is the tonal center, regardless of the Major or Minor label.

It's amazing how much background can be considered over a little 5 chord progression :) (but, it's stuff worth knowing)

[1001gear]

I see what you're saying. I was considering the supplied chords as the complete cycle. I used the term 'center' because I'm assuming the the thing is strummed out in block chords and but for the chromatic drop to F, the C to Bb to Gb would certainly lead the ear elsewhere.

[gennation]

I see what you're saying. I was considering the supplied chords as the complete cycle. I used the term 'center' because I'm assuming the the thing is strummed out in block chords and but for the chromatic drop to F, the C to Bb to Gb would certainly lead the ear elsewhere.

No biggie.

[Jasco]

I see what you're saying. I was considering the supplied chords as the complete cycle. I used the term 'center' because I'm assuming the the thing is strummed out in block chords and but for the chromatic drop to F, the C to Bb to Gb would certainly lead the ear elsewhere.

No Gb chord in the original progression.

[gennation]

No Gb chord in the original progression.

I'm not sure what he meant by that whole last sentence.

I don't see a "drop to F" either. Eb goes up to F. Can you rephrase that last sentence 1001?

[1001gear]

Sorry, bored. I was using Gb instead of Eb my fault for switching from sharps. The chords now flow more like a Genesis tune and less like a riff lol. To my ears though it's even less C major. It starts right off modulating and then gets back to C only by grace of the G. This of course assuming the progression cycles.

[Jasco]

To my ears though it's even less C major..

Yes, as I said, it's C pentatonic minor essentially.


Kind of like the song Hey Joe. Would you switch keys over all those major chords, or just play E minor pentatonic over it?


Detailed analysis is a good learning tool, but sometimes overthinking things can make them more complicated than they need to be.

[mcracecars]

..

[gennation]

Well, this is the theory forum after all ;)

I would agree that the poster should spell out the progression instead of just giving chord names. I would hope that some of the theory information people get here would lead them to start from the beginning and be able to answer their own questions.

It's like me asking a mechanic, "what does an alternator do?" I would expect to get a mechanics explanation, because I would truly want to know.

If I REALLY wanted to understand what he tells me I would need to go back and get some fundamentals. So, I guess I'd either be completely hammered by the knowledge, or inspired. I hope people here are inspired to want to understand.

[Jed]

However, when someone gives you a bunch of major chords, can you not now theoreticly put in in any key of any of the chords given, by using the borrowed chord theory, and play the corrisponding mode over them?

Not in my experience. You could make an argument that way, but that wouldn't necessarily make it true.

My take on the first post was , here was a guy who stated he was a newbie, with a small bit of theory knowlegde, trying to figure out a key to a progression by what seemed to be another newbie, maybe not so new... idono.
Now it gets over analized without knowing any more about it than, here are some chords. Without knowing how many measures between chords it would be difficult to know what to play over them, because there may not be a lot of time between, maybe only enough for some passing notes.

I'm curious (not offended, just curious), at what point do you think this was over-analyzed? When I first read the OP's progression, I didn't have to think about what notes, scales or chords that progression represented. I immediately knew what the most likely candidates were for the chords based on his original post. The explaination only became mildly complicated after he asked for an explaination of what "borrowed chords" were.

Again, I'm not offended that you feel my response to "borrowed chords" was overly theoretical. But I would ask you to suggest a more simple but equally accurate explaination of what "borrowed chords" are.

cheers,

[gennation]

After playing this as just block chords, I agree with C Minor Pent completely, with a disagreement over the G chord. But you can EASILY alternate between C Min Pent and C Major/Maj Pent over the C and C Dorian over the rest, until the G chord for sure. Try it when your Blues licks start getting tiresome, it'll give you a whole new freshness to it, it'll bring out the "musical" side of the progression as opposed to a static Dominant type sound throughout (especially when the G is going to rule as the true/heaviest Dominant in the progression).

This isn't any different than many Stones tune or Alternative tunes of the 90's either.

Without a real chord progression being described by the original poster I ended up with this:

|| C Bb | Eb F | G | G ||

If each chord is played for two beats, I see the G having to be held for two measures to dictate the turnaround.

Chorded like this you can really see all the scale possibilities I listed, and you can also see that C Major (or G Mixo/Blues/Super-Imposed) is the scale for the G chord.

Even when chorded like this, I get the same scale results:

|| C | Bb | Eb | F | G | G || (like this better because it doesn't have to have an even amount of measures)

Maybe the original poster can lay out the real chord progression he's playing, instead of just chord names.

Now, what I described is "playing wise". What Jed laid out is complete true for the original question of "What Key is this?". Borrowed chords against a Key is exactly how you figure it out, and I used a Modal approach to deciphering the "written" Key and how the other chords fall in place against it.

You could even take a Hendrix chording approach ala Little Wing, Three Little Bears, or Castles Made of Sand and play each chord as a Major arp lick, again like Hendrix might've...


C Bb Eb F G
E---------------------|--------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
B---------------------|--------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
G-----------5---------|----------3---------|-----------8-----------|------------10------------|-------------12------------|
D-----------5h7p5-----|----------3h5p3-----|-----------8h10p8------|------------10h12p10------|-------------12h14p12------|
A---3--5/7---------7--|--1--3/5---------5--|--6--8/10----------10--|--8--10/12------------12--|--10--12/14------------14--|
E---------------------|--------------------|-----------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|


So, while you can simplify it all you want and lock yourself into the Pentonic box that's fine, but don't stop the forward motion by ignoring that there's a WHOLE LOT of music that's happening in this progression...and not just a scale.

If you're going to hang in the theory forum, you ARE going to get some theory(s).

[jonathan404]

this thread has answered alot of underlying questions deep in the back of my mind. just wanted to let you know that, thanks :)