im new here, Tube Head VS. Rack

[The Dude]

my guitar teathcer had a big ass rack loaded with preamps an sound effects.... so therefor i ask this question... altouhg i liked his sound, i think its nothing compared to an all tube halfstack....

whats the advantage of a rack.....

in my opinion, its heavy ass hell and its fucking expensive

------------------
Sex, Drugs, Rock and roll and a midlife crisis.........

[wasteland2k]

Since you're a "senior member", I assume you actually READ these posts and don't just waste space by typing "bump".

Then again, there are couple of others who recently became senior members by doing just that. Nothing really intelligent or usefull has come out of their mouths...just a bunch meaningless phrases like "bump", "Kirk is God", "this product vs. that product", etc.

With this in mind, what's the point of asking a question that has already been answered 100+ times...then again, it does give you a bigger number of posts (always important for self esteem...just like guys with racks who buy them for the lights).

Personally, I can't wait untill they put an IQ filter on computers.


------------------
If at first you don't succeed, you must need more practice.

[scottosan]

Originally posted by wasteland2k:
Since you're a "senior member", I assume you actually READ these posts and don't just waste space by typing "bump".

Then again, there are couple of others who recently became senior members by doing just that. Nothing really intelligent or usefull has come out of their mouths...just a bunch meaningless phrases like "bump", "Kirk is God", "this product vs. that product", etc.

With this in mind, what's the point of asking a question that has already been answered 100+ times...then again, it does give you a bigger number of posts (always important for self esteem...just like guys with racks who buy them for the lights).

Personally, I can't wait untill they put an IQ filter on computers.



I have been playing guitar for 15 years. I am a senior member, and I have never bumped. Just because this guy is a senior member doesn't mean he is supposed to know everything and shouldn't have questions. You are out of line, arrogant, and don't belong here. In my opinion attitude is a good measurement of IQ. Get lost


------------------
"Did you ever walk in a room and forget why you walked in? I think that's how dogs spend their lives."

[Spiderman!]

Bump.

[SatansLittleHelper]

Originally posted by wasteland2k:
Since you're a "senior member", I assume you actually READ these posts and don't just waste space by typing "bump".

Then again, there are couple of others who recently became senior members by doing just that. Nothing really intelligent or usefull has come out of their mouths...just a bunch meaningless phrases like "bump", "Kirk is God", "this product vs. that product", etc.

With this in mind, what's the point of asking a question that has already been answered 100+ times...then again, it does give you a bigger number of posts (always important for self esteem...just like guys with racks who buy them for the lights).

Personally, I can't wait untill they put an IQ filter on computers.




bump

[Sinner]

Besides the fact that this forum isn't meant for dicussions of RACKS, that would be EFFECTS. This is meant for discussion of HC's Monster Rack service whatever the hell that is. But looks like effects rack discussion has taken over because people can't read or something.

[wasteland2k]

OK, after taking a day off, I was probably a little out of line, but at the same time, you have to admit there's a lot more junk floating on these boards than usefull information.
I was just fed up at the time and was venting, no offense meant to anyone... just fumed that there's more junk than usefull content.

By the way, LOL at the "Bumps" following my post! :D

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, you must need more practice.

[guitarhack]

bump

[OREO Speedwagon]

bump

[DeadNight Warrior]

Why exactly should rackmount preamps and poweramps be classified under effects, Xing Cztarre? Sure if he was talking about an Intellifex or something, but iamyou has clearly mentioned that this topic is largely related to amps.

[MRAXE]

Well, since nobody else is answering this guy's question...

I have a relatively simple rack system consisting mainly of an ADA MP1 preamp (with two 12ax7 tubes) and a mesa/boogie 20/20 all tube power amp.
The advantages of a rack, for me, are that I have much more control over my sound. If I like some aspects,eg. the preamp, but not others,eg. power amp, I'll simply replace that one component, rather than buying a whole new amp. Also, my rack makes recording easier, with more options available. Some racks are lighter than amps ( ever carry a boogie mark4 or recto head up two flights of stairs?).
Having said all that, will my amp ever sound EXACTLY like a good tube amp cranked to it's sweet spot? No, but I can get close enough to satify my own taste. Advantages to both. Tube amp= relatively simple.
Rack= more sound options. I currently don't have a regular "amp", per se,("per se"-what a strange phrase :D) but I plan on changing that. It's best to have both(DUH!).
Oh, great. I write what I think to be a fairly intelligent post(for me, anyway) and I finish it by saying "DUH". Oh well...

------------------
Less is not more. More is more - I checked.

[wasteland2k]

LOL MRAXE!
I agree 100%, very well put.
I am currently using a rack and have a Marshall JCM 800 as well.
I wanted more options than the Marshall could provide so hence the rack.
The Marshall also comes in handy to run a dry signal through while the rack can be run in stereo.
There are so many options with a rack, your imagination and budget are the limit, really.
Start small (preamp & power amp) and build from there.
Fair warning! Building a rack can be like getting tattoos for some people.
Some get just what they need to make a statement while others get a rack full of stuff (my case).
Thankfully, many of the processors used in instrument can used effectively with PA systems as well, so if you decide you don't like the new peice of gear a few months down the road, you can always transfer it to another system.

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, you must need more practice.

[Creed]

A tube head cranked is hard to beat, i will admit. I love my triple rec heads sound. But i have seen racks, and i mean MONSTER racks, that can about copy any sound you could ever dream of. Not to put down on peoples gear or anything. But alot of people are speaking of Ada's and digitech stuff. These will never reproduce the sound of a true half stack like you said. They are still more versatile and can achieve alot more different sounds than you could ever dream of doing with a halfstack.

PLus racks look cool and pedals dont, IMHO. Even though i use both :). But back to what i was saying, most of the people dont have the true monster racks. The one i saw this guy had, was a bogner fish preamp, and a soldano X88r preamp, with a VHT poweramp, and a ton of boutique effects, (Eventide, Lexicon, T.C. etc.,....) And i must say his sound was awesome. Although hes pretty rich and could put together something like that. With his setup my jaws dropped. But someone said racks where light, his was like 18-22 or something rack spaces. I would say it weighed a ton hehe. Anyway the true monster racks, like Vai, and others probably could make could get anysound you could dream of.

[wasteland2k]

yeah, that's double-edged sword of owning a rack... options!
I can get pretty much any sound I want out of mine, but I think I could get better tone with a different preamp.
Right now, I have tons of presets but don't really use more than five at the moment. 5 different GOOD sounds is great to have fast access to.

However, if you're playing covers, it's nice to spend the extra time to try and nail the guitarists tone on the album. You can hear this in Petrucci's setup on Dream Theater's "Once in a Livetime" CD....
During "Peruvian Skies" the band breaks into Pink Floyd's "Have a cigar" and he's got Gilmours sound pretty much nailed.

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, you must need more practice.

[biuje]

do u really want to know ?
I like both :


Ibanez > Digitech 2120 ( preamp with 2 valves ) > Marshall ( endless valves )

.

[guitarhack]

Bump!

[jimfowler]

i just like the blinking lights.

-jim

[ToneSeeker]

ive played nothing but tube amp heads and combos for years, i finally switched to rack a couple months ago..

I love it way more than a tube amp head.

Way more options and flexability, if you get tired of something, replace the power and/or preamp , with a tube head you gotta sell the whole damn thing.

I dont know, to me rack's just seem more professional and I like the endless tweeking and the non-stop cables going everywhere. Eh.

-Matt

[ToneSeeker]

WAIT A MINUTE!! What the hell am i saying, I just love all the lights and shiznit! haha

[OverDriven]

I never understood why people say that racks can never sound like a head...thats just proof of inexperience. Its the SAME THING...just in modular form (the pre and power amps are separate).

-Joe

[Flat Fifth Fury]

I think that there are really three variations.
1) Head/combo and pedals only
2) Fully rack with only preamps and separate poweramps
3) Integrated rack systems that use a blend of the two.

Right now, I use a 1/2 stack with all my effects in a rack. I will eventually add a second 1/2 stack and most likely a nice preamp but I am very happy with the tones from my Marshall 30th Anniversary.

As for "racks can't compete with the tone of a cranked 1/2 stack" it's a different beast. Racks with no outboard amp system lack the power amp distortion of the dimed stack/combo but many top preamps have that kind of sound somewhat put into the preamp because they designed it to be pushed by a clean power amp. The integrated rigs do have that sound though but they are the large 3 way (wet-dry-wet) systems that most players can't use in small venues due to limited space onstage.

[rickenbacker198]

I like big racks.

[IamBurnout]

Lite Brite all the way, man.

Not to mention, more than one good sound.

And, IMHO, those down right freaky effects are addictive.

Did I mention the huge footswitches?

When a guy has a Fender Twin, everybody says,"nice amp!"

When a guy has a loaded rack, everybody says," Wow! What does THAT do?"

[IamBurnout]

ALMOST forgot...



BUMP

[Darth Balls]

Originally posted by OverDriven
I never understood why people say that racks can never sound like a head...thats just proof of inexperience. Its the SAME THING...just in modular form (the pre and power amps are separate).

-Joe

Can anyone verify/debunk the following?:

1. In rack units, the pre and power amps don't feed off the same power supply like a head, and therefore sound different. (rack more compressed, even with same gain level?)

2. Rack power amps have input buffers to enable use with all preamps of different output impedances, and therefore may degrade the tone. (rack not as "open"?)

I do not know, but I would like to know. Anyone know? No?
Anyone ever compare a Triaxis and Mark IV side by side?


Oh yeah...





BUMP!:p

[rickenbacker198]

bump

[motogod927]

With that many posts you shouldnt have to ask a question like that. A head is a pre-amp and a poweramp.

[guitarhack]

Bump

[sapphireskiss]

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3169&PHPSESSID=7049e7c5df417f9c8d1ebb18281b04ee

Here ya go!!! This thread ( especially the last page explains the finding of John Suhr and the reason why component pre and power do not sound like a head):)

[dogula]

I agree that most rack systems don't sound as good as a cranked tube head. I think it is mostly due to a cheap power amp, preamp or both. I have a rocktron pirahna that I run into a Marshall 9200. Although it sounds good in its own way, it does not sound like a head. On the other hand I recently bought an Egnater M4 that sounds better that alot of heads I have played. I could only imagine had it would sound if I was running it into a nicer poweramp. The point is if you start with a nice tube preamp and poweramp you should be able to achieve the sound of an all tube head (dynamics and all). I think the tone gets lost when you start getting into the digital controls and intergrated preamp/effects type units. Keep everything seperate and simple.

[Ska_o_Matic]

Originally posted by ToneSeeker
WAIT A MINUTE!! What the hell am i saying, I just love all the lights and shiznit! haha

haha


+1

:D

[DarkCide]

So an ENGL 580 preamp running through a VHT amp will never sound as good as a half-stack?

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by toydarian


Can anyone verify/debunk the following?:

1. In rack units, the pre and power amps don't feed off the same power supply like a head, and therefore sound different. (rack more compressed, even with same gain level?)



I'm assuming we are talking about compression from supply sag here....I'd think that would be very dependant on the individual supply design (response curve/slew rate in it's operational window)

A couple of thoughts on the issue

-The preamp's draw (and it's effect on the supply) is quite a bit smaller than the power amp's

-If you did did have the pre and power amps supplied differently, (all else being equal), I'd think you'd get LESS sag (compression) out of the separate supply system...you aren't taxing the power supplies.

[Rai168]

Originally posted by toydarian


Can anyone verify/debunk the following?:

1. In rack units, the pre and power amps don't feed off the same power supply like a head, and therefore sound different. (rack more compressed, even with same gain level?)

I have heard this - and have experienced this w my JMP-1/9200 combination back in the day. It made sense when explained to me this way. I guess I should have the patience to read that thread (lol being John Suhr and all and I;'d actually educate myself) but I always have trouble getting through anything more than 4 pages lol - ADD Kicks in by that point..lol Also if you use a clean output section (like I do - KT88's) I'd say the Powertube dist. factor wouldn;t count here - but I could see how if you relied on powertube dist. it would.

Now that all being said - I'd thing and Engl Pre/VHT Power amp would yield way better results than in my example w the JMP-1/9200. By the way I use the last rack type - a Head w Rack FX and all midi Controlled - best of both worlds for me!

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[Rai168]

P.S. Nice to see you over here Scottosan@! Hope to see ya more...

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Rai168
Originally posted by toydarian


Can anyone verify/debunk the following?:

1. In rack units, the pre and power amps don't feed off the same power supply like a head, and therefore sound different. (rack more compressed, even with same gain level?)

I have heard this - and have experienced this w my JMP-1/9200 combination back in the day. It made sense when explained to me this way.

I'm a little confused. Did you try it against the same design with a single supply? and was that the only design diff?

you'd have to try it against the same pre/power amp config being fed by the same supply and then separate supplied to attribute it to the power supply...otherwise we have no control (it'd be kind of like deciding Red cars are faster than blue cars b/c you tested a red Ferarri against a blue fiat...you need to control for the variable)


Does someone have the service prints to JMP-1/9200 and maybe the same pre/pwr amp config in a head so we can compare design? so we can see if we've got good control

[IsildursBane]

in my opinion, its heavy ass hell and its fucking expensive

Heavy? yeah.

Expensive? How do you figure? A pre-amp and poweramp will each run you about $250 - $1000, generally, for a combined total of $500 - $2000, about the same price range as amp heads.

Fx: $400 - $1000 plus $200 for a floor controller. That's about $1200. Plenty of pedals cost well over $100 a piece. That's 6-12 pedals for the price of effects. Then you've got to have 10x as many patch cables and batteries or power supplies and a pedalboard. Plus, pedals are a lot less flexible.

Neither is inherently more expensive than the other; it's what you choose to buy that makes the difference. Comparing a Crate head w/ a MetalZone pedal to rack w/ a Bogner Fish, Eventide fx, and a VHT poweramp is a little ridiculous; they're two opposite ends of the spectrum. I could use the same tactics to say that racks are cheaper by comparing an ADA Mp-1 + Peavey 30/30 rack to an Engl Powerball or a Matchless or a Dumble.

-Dan.

[Rai168]

Originally posted by MorePaul
I'm a little confused. Did you try it against the same design with a single supply? and was that the only design diff?

you'd have to try it against the same pre/power amp config being fed by the same supply and then separate supplied to attribute it to the power supply...otherwise we have no control (it'd be kind of like deciding Red cars are faster than blue cars b/c you tested a red Ferarri against a blue fiat...you need to control for the variable)


Does someone have the service prints to JMP-1/9200 and maybe the same pre/pwr amp config in a head so we can compare design? so we can see if we've got good control

Hmm let me elaborate more and you bring up an excellent point as well :) I did a small tour w a few bands - package deal - and everyone was rocking Dual Recs, Triple Recs, Marshall - all heads and here was me w my 9200/JMP-1 and a Mesa 4x12 w V30's (the smaller tighter Recto Cab). It's not that I wasn't as loud as them - not at all...it was more of a compressed, wimpy kinda sound - so tiny in comparrison to the other bands IMO. But then again I played the New England Metal Fest one year and there was a common backline w Marshall Cabs (75's) Primer 55 went on right before us and when I set my stuff up - damn it was the best that amp ever sounded. But I have recordings w that set-up and while it was a "good" (not great) tone on record, it had it's faults to my ears.

That all being said - some of my fav tones have come from a Pre/Power amp combo - case in point - the band Snapcase on the song Caboose or anything off of Progression Through Unlearning...it's a Mesa 2:90 and I forget what for a pre - I'm pretty sure it was NOT a Triaxis - although another one of myf av bands uses that set-up - Boy Sets Fire....I'll have to ask Frank what they used on Progression next time I talk to him. But I did not do anything scientific to prove or disporve this theory - just my ears and when I heard this explanation online - it clicked and went ok that makes sense....again great point - can't compare apples and oranges...which again is why I said earlier - if it was an Engl preamp and a VHT Power amp - I'm sure that would of yielded much different results. I was younger at the time too and probably couldn't set my tone up optimally - although no matter what I did I could never get her to sound like I wanted her to. Even retubed her w Phillips Power Tubes and Pre tubes - that may have been my mistake as well (minus the pre's - I seem to find Vintage Power Tubes do nothing for my tone, but vintage pre tubes affect my tone way much more - of course I use clean headroom so this stands to hold true for me).

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[Darth Balls]

Whoa, this is an old thread!

I was told about the power supply thing from a Mesa tech on the phone. Doesn't seem to be it, huh?

I now believe that it is the loop itself, if in use - and therefore the seperation of the pre and poweramp - that causes the infamous tone sucking, not the FX processors. I plugged a Monster cable from the send, straight back into the return of my Marshall SLX head, set the loop for unity gain, and the tone was affected (compressed). I didn't notice it immediately, though, I had to plug and unplug back and forth. I could understand why a racker wouldn't care.

Maybe I'm wrong though (too frequently, lol), and other amp heads don't suffer from this. I keep learning shit like this all the time. Different day, different lesson.

[MorePaul]

Well, I wouldn't want to discount it as not happening, but I do want to make sure we take an honest look at the phenomenon.

I hope I didn't come off like "prove it" in a challenging or adversarial way, I simply meant "I guess we need to look for evidence and a mechanism for causing this compression in a controlled manner"

I mean, you could be hearing compression from supply sag, I'm sketpical (just skeptical, not convinced it isn't possible, I just don't see the mechanism) that it's BECAUSE they are seperate supplies as opposed to the supply design itself.

Could the tech have said "it's because they are using different supplies" meaning different supply designs (ie Oh yeah, that Brand X uses a different supply design than our Brand Y and won't sound like ours)


Since you have a level adjustment on the FX loop, it sounds as if you have an extra buffer/attenuator stage there (a stage some systems may not have). That could definitely cause some changes.
Any time you use an active FX box, you are going to hav some sort of buffering effect.

The nature of the change is, of course, dependant on the design of the extra stage.

Just to clarify, when you say "compressed" are you sure it's compression and not another artifact (like changed frequency response) making a 'compressed' sound, but not really affecting dynamic range?
(My knee-jerk reaction is that you'd be more likely to see a change in frequency response than compression, but that's just an immediate impression, not an analysis)

[leadfootdriver]

The way I see it is, I want a stereo set up, and I don't wanna' drag around 2 heads, along with my cabs, and rack. It's to much to worry about. Maybe if I was EVH, and I could afford to pay some shlep to hump my shit around, I might, rabbit.

But if I can get a dedicated stereo power amp, with a cool matching pre amp, then I'm done. Besides, even if a head is better, I think it's nitpicking, 'cuz the Triaxis/2:90 ain't no slouch, and no head can do what this combo can do anyway.

1 for Lite Brite!

[Rai168]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leadfootdriver
[B]I might, rabbit...

"If Rocky was hiding in this oven, would I light this match and throw it in here?" " You might rabbit, you might..." [QUOTE]

:D Awesome someone else references that! I say this all the time and peopel are like wtf are you talking about lol...

[QUOTE] But if I can get a dedicated stereo power amp, with a cool matching pre amp, then I'm done. Besides, even if a head is better, I think it's nitpicking, 'cuz the Triaxis/2:90 ain't no slouch, and no head can do what this combo can do anyway.

1 for Lite Brite! [QUOTE]

Hey hey I mentioned the 2:90/Triaxis combo as well lol @ More Paul - I'm not sure if you were talking to me or not about the compression I experienced or ? If so I'll try and explain better - just let me know...rawk.

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[leadfootdriver]

"If Rocky was hiding in this oven, would I light this match and throw it in here?" " You might rabbit, you might..."



LOL You know the deal! :D

[MorePaul]

Rai -- yeah you and Toy sound like you are hearing, well, at least similar things so either/both of you could field the question.

So I'm wondering if by 'compression' you mean actual reduction in the dynamic response or are using 'compression' more in an aesthetic sense of "it sounds reminiscent of a sound that's been overcompressed"

My inital thinking is that it *might* be a tonal difference that makes it sound thin as opposed to supply-based sag causing actual compression

did my reasoning make sense to you as to why I would expect LESS compression out of a seperated supply as opposed to a single supply? -- but it still seems to be an "all else being equal" type deal as you could design sag in or out of either system

[Rai168]

Hey MorePaul - Umm well im situation specifically - I prob should of worded it better (duh on my part) I meant compresion like actual loss in dynamic repsonse - not compression in the "compressor" kinda way - it sounded super small, weak and puny in general - Again this could be the particular unit (specifically this model of JMP-1/9200), it could of been the fact my JMP-1/9200 hated the mesa cab/v30's or it hated the Phillips tubes etc or the tech could of royally screwed me more or less or it could of been my inexperience. It was hit or miss - more miss than hit though....

Let me go back and check on your first post. My ADD is kicking hard today so lol have patience w me.

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[MorePaul]

I call my ADD the Arabica bean

So, are you talking lack of tonal variation as mapped to input strength (like one might expect with say supr-duper saturated system or a comparator type fuzz as an extreme) or actual loss of program dynamics, but there is tonal response?

Does that make sense?

[Rai168]

Originally posted by MorePaul
I call my ADD the Arabica bean

So, are you talking lack of tonal variation as mapped to input strength (like one might expect with say supr-duper saturated system or a comparator type fuzz as an extreme) or actual loss of program dynamics, but there is tonal response?

Does that make sense?



LOL it was so damn long ago! Actually like 1999 when I got rid of it. let's see - I'm kinda confused by both statements as I' m not sure what you mean mapped to input strength and actual loss of program dynamics (I think like program change). It had tone and it sounded ok though to my ears not super hi gain. Can't remember if it was fuzzy (prob not w Phillips pre and power tubes) but it had tonal response but smaller (no kick, not big and in your face) than the amp heads I had been going up against. Almost like more input ratio wise compared to the output - like man the tone is going but why is the power amp not pumping it out...ok last shot - Instead of going GRRRRRRRRRRRRR I'M FUCKING ANGRY (lol) it went meh better yet? :confused:

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[sapphireskiss]

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3169&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&PHPSESSID=7049e7c5df417f9c8d1ebb18281b04ee For those that don't apparently like to read??? Scroll down to John Suhrs' reply and become enlightened;)

[leadfootdriver]

Originally posted by sapphireskiss
http://www.hugeracksinc.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3169&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&PHPSESSID=7049e7c5df417f9c8d1ebb18281b04ee For those that don't apparently like to read??? Scroll down to John Suhrs' reply and become enlightened;)

The line between players, and tweeker, never satisfied, gear junkies, has been drawn even thicker.

[Darth Balls]

Originally posted by MorePaul
Well, I wouldn't want to discount it as not happening, but I do want to make sure we take an honest look at the phenomenon.

I hope I didn't come off like "prove it" in a challenging or adversarial way, I simply meant "I guess we need to look for evidence and a mechanism for causing this compression in a controlled manner"

I mean, you could be hearing compression from supply sag, I'm sketpical (just skeptical, not convinced it isn't possible, I just don't see the mechanism) that it's BECAUSE they are seperate supplies as opposed to the supply design itself.

Could the tech have said "it's because they are using different supplies" meaning different supply designs (ie Oh yeah, that Brand X uses a different supply design than our Brand Y and won't sound like ours)


Since you have a level adjustment on the FX loop, it sounds as if you have an extra buffer/attenuator stage there (a stage some systems may not have). That could definitely cause some changes.
Any time you use an active FX box, you are going to hav some sort of buffering effect.

The nature of the change is, of course, dependant on the design of the extra stage.

Just to clarify, when you say "compressed" are you sure it's compression and not another artifact (like changed frequency response) making a 'compressed' sound, but not really affecting dynamic range?
(My knee-jerk reaction is that you'd be more likely to see a change in frequency response than compression, but that's just an immediate impression, not an analysis)

Oh don't worry, I think you sound diligent, certainly not snobby or snappy.

Supply sag or design, I haven't a clue. The Mesa tech said the triaxis sounds different than the MKIV because the tri & 290 don't share the same power supply. I don't know the technical aspects of what I'm hearing - all the more important that I humbly ask others such as yourself to verify/debunk stuff I was told/read.

As far as my only-a-Monster-cable-in-the-loop test on my Marshall, it was definately compression, not frequency changes. Not as open and 3D. Don't have to pick as hard, but flatter sounding. Very very very very subtle, though, not dramatic, like SS amps.

[Rai168]

Originally posted by toydarian
As far as my only-a-Monster-cable-in-the-loop test on my Marshall, it was definately compression, not frequency changes. Not as open and 3D. Don't have to pick as hard, but flatter sounding. Very very very very subtle, though, not dramatic, like SS amps.

More or less accurat ein my situation too More Paul. Not as open and 3d is a great way to explain it. Very flat sounding.

Rai
www.DatsMusic.com

[sapphireskiss]

Originally posted by leadfootdriver


The line between players, and tweeker, never satisfied, gear junkies, has been drawn even thicker.


Clarify please, If you are saying that all I do is sit around and tweak my gear thats not true I haven't plugged into my rack in months (I practice through my Vamp2). The reason why I even brought HugeRacks into this is because all the speculation just spreads more speculation, I hope that makes sense??? This"feel" problem has been discussed in many forums and I've been wondering what the deal was, so the thread I posted discussing non-toroid and toroid power trannies give some insight into what we are'nt hearing that some of us miss in our rack components. I'm just trying to help distinguish fact from fiction. And to set the record straight, I'm a player first and a tweaker second;)

[leadfootdriver]

Originally posted by sapphireskiss



Clarify please, If you are saying that all I do is sit around and tweak my gear thats not true I haven't plugged into my rack in months (I practice through my Vamp2). The reason why I even brought HugeRacks into this is because all the speculation just spreads more speculation, I hope that makes sense??? This"feel" problem has been discussed in many forums and I've been wondering what the deal was, so the thread I posted discussing non-toroid and toroid power trannies give some insight into what we are'nt hearing that some of us miss in our rack components. I'm just trying to help distinguish fact from fiction. And to set the record straight, I'm a player first and a tweaker second;)

Don't sweat it bro. Today was my day to be on the rag. :)

But I'm sure there's some substance to the arguments presented above. Boogie even hints at it indirectly on the bottom of page 2, in the 2:90 manual (http://mesaboogie.com/manuals/Stereo%20Simul%202-90.pdf).

They go on to say: "The Simul 2:90 Stereo carries on this tradition and improves upon its predecessors.
By utilizing an even better, more "head-like" driver stage, this Simul delivers all the urgency
and soul often missing in some so called "guitar" power amps."

So they admit that there's somethin' doin' there. And they also DO NOT say, that it's EXACTLY like a head.

Furthermore, on pages 16-17 in my Triaxis manual(http://mesaboogie.com/manuals/Triaxis.pdf), they hint about how to set the gain in the Rectifier channel, and how to duplicate resister values, to make it like a head.

They go on to say: "A setting of 6.0 on the gain control chooses the discrete resister value most often found in this style of circuit"

So with this statement, they tell you flat out that for the gain responce to be authentic, you need to det the "gain" control on 6, to make it just like the amp. But there's also the Lead 2, and Lead 2 gain controls to tweek, so there will be another variable to ponder. Because I know on the Rectifier head, there is only 1 gain control.

So with this info, I'm sure that my rack combo isn't exactly the same as a amplifier head set up, but no single head can do what the Triaxis/2:90 combo can do. So I have no problem sacrificing a little tone, for versatility.

I love not being stuck with 1 sound. Sometimes when I need some inspiration, I switch to the Mark 1 mode, and pretend I'm Carlos Santana. Then I'll dial up a low gain Recto sound, and pretend I'm Jimmy Page. Not to mention a host of clean tones, and the rack effects that I can assign to them, and mess with.

I came up on solid state amps, so when I got my first tube piece (ADA MP-1) the difference was immediate. So I could have worse.

[sapphireskiss]

I've had a couple all tube heads back in the day (an old peavey and a fender bassman) and then I bought a Randall RG100 and didn't understand what was missing, so I started doing the pedal thing to compensate and never really got what I was looking for. After purchasing an MP1 it was a little better but still not it. So I got the Triaxis and 2:90 and both of those were alot closer to what I needed and the ability of this setup to model all the amps I like is a plus(a big plus) so I've just tried to nail the missing link to make this setup sound the best that it can. If I can figure out a way to incorporate a toroidal power tranny into this setup then I will be one happy mofo (they're alittle big for a one space unit). No hard feelings, Take care.:cool:


-Robert

[detunedman]

I went with a rack for this reason: multiple pre-amp voicing

I can go with the mp-1, rockmaster, vamp pro..whichever sound I'm looking for fairly cheap.

BTW: poweramp is the rocktron velocity 300

[guitarhack]

bump

[SlipKid]

Why in the name of fuck did you feel it necessary to Weekend at Bernie's this thread, exactly?

Is this supposed to be clever?

[Elric]

FWIW, a lot, if not most, of my all-time favorite tones have been done through rack rigs or preamps plugged into head power amp sections. Including my all-time fave (Nuno Bettencourt, Extreme era). So, really. I just like the way the things fuggin tend to sound.

I don't care much about urban myths, what purists say, or retarded thumb rules that aren't true (like X is ALWAYS better than Y). <shrugs>

The lights and flexibility are bonus. :thu: :thu:

[Zachman]

my guitar teathcer had a big ass rack loaded with preamps an sound effects.... so therefor i ask this question... altouhg i liked his sound, i think its nothing compared to an all tube halfstack....

whats the advantage of a rack.....

in my opinion, its heavy ass hell and its fucking expensive

------------------
Sex, Drugs, Rock and roll and a midlife crisis.........

Not ALL rack systems are equal, nor are their operator's ability to design, purchase, program or utilize them appropriately. Having great gear and knowing how to get it to work for a given scenario is a seperate art than playing guitar. That being said, the #1 reason for using a mega rack is tonal flexibility/purity and real-time control.

Reasons to use a mega rack:

1. Usually not limited to mono use
2. Automated control of: sound processors, pedals, amp selection, amp channel changes, amp function changes
3. Signal routing is not limited to series
4. Depending on the selection of processors (Can be more hi-fi, than using a pedal)
5. When done right, they sound better.

They can be expensive, heavy, and complicated, but IF getting the tones and being able to control them in real time is the priority, they are the way to do it.

BTW, using a rack and using heads aren't exclusive of one another. I do both.
Multi-head switching 3-way system w/ a 20 space rack with ALL the goodies.

Hope this helps you

:idea:

[guitarhack]

Bump:poke: