DIGITECH VOCALIST LIVE 4 (VL4)

[Anderton]

Don't you just LOVE BBS software? I started the review and copied over some of the excellent posts on the VL4 that were in the VL2 thread, and something happened during one of the copy operations that nuked the VL4 thread. So I'm starting over...major apologies to those who had submitted such great tips, I'm really sorry the BBS killed them. I'll try to see if there's some way to recover them later tonight.

Anyway, back the VL4, which thankfully was not programmed by the same people who did the BBS software! The image shows an overview of the piece. You'll note there's a MusIQ switch to turn off the function that ties harmonies to your guitar playing, which means you can specify particular scales and keys. You'll also notice four footswitches instead of the two on the VL2: Effects, Harmony, and preset up/down.

The other obvious difference is that there are a lot more editable parameters -- you'll see the familiar DigiTech "matrix of parameters" printed on the front panel. You have five knobs to tweak these (AFAIC a big improvement over the one knob/increment-decrement button approach), and three mix knobs.

[Anderton]

Given how much people liked the VL2, and how much of the basic functionality of the Vocalist Live series we covered in the VL2 Pro Review, I think these are the main questions we need to address regarding the VL4:

1. Despite the added sophistication, is the VL4 easy to use?
2. Does it hit the "sweet spot" of price, features, and flexibility?
3. Is the extra functionality compared to the VL2 worth the higher price?
4. Despite it being intended for live use, can it work in the studio?

Let's investigate further. My band EV2 is going to have a rehearsal in a few minutes, so I plan to set this up and see what happens...I'll keep posting photos until then.

[Anderton]

Here's a close-up of the MusIQ switch section. If you turn it off, the harmony no longer tracks the audio input from your guitar, but you can enter a key and scale, like A Major. Of course, we'll be getting more into this later.

I've also attached an image showing the four footswitches, and also, the three mix controls for vocal level, harmony level, and guitar level.

[Anderton]

Okay, I'm going to go set it up now. I've decided to do this without looking at the manual just to see how far I get :) I'll report back when the rehearsal's over.

[Anderton]

Well, one thing I found out right off the bat: The ability to specify a scale is really handy. There are a couple tunes we do that pretty much stick to a key, so programming that in removes any variables. Also, you can save the key as part of the preset.

[ihateyouguys]

Question for anyone who can answer it:

Can the effects from the guitar effects section be applied to the 'guitar thru' signal?

[Anderton]

Question for anyone who can answer it:

Can the effects from the guitar effects section be applied to the 'guitar thru' signal?

As far as I can tell, no...guitar thru is just to pick off the guitar signal then send it along to your subsequent amplification system.

[Michael Angel]

Craig,

Thanks for all your hard work. It really makes a difference to a lot of people. Bummer about the BBS problem. Now I am really glad I printed out the VL2 Thread (about 100 pages) a few nights ago.

I have a question regarding "hiss" reported by a few people using the VL4. Have you encountered the same problem?

I have read the manual a few times and found it interesting that when it comes to setting the guitar level we are encouraged to get green LEDs flashing but when setting the vocal input level on page 7 it says, "Sing into the mic while gradually turning up the Vocalist Live 4 Mic/Line Input Level knob until the Vocal Signal LED lights amber most of the time." On page 13 it goes on to reaffirm this and adds, "and only briefly turns red on the very loudest vocal sections. The Vocalist Live 4 will normally prevent the vocal harmonies from clipping, even when the LED is red, but for optimum voice quality the LED should turn red only briefly or not at all."

I have a Fishman Aura Imaging Blender and in the Aura troubleshooting section it mentions that "Hiss" can be caused by the input level being set too low and can be corrected by increasing it slightly. Could the same gain structure issue be the source of the hiss reported by some people using the V L4? In other words, could the hiss be coming from the vocal input level actually being set too low?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Michael

[ihateyouguys]

I don't know which posts were deleted, but you may be able to find them for awhile on google's cache. Just search for DIGITECH VOCALIST LIVE 2 - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS AND VIDEO CLIPS! Page XX and you'll find it there. But be sure to do it ASAP because the cache could be overwritten soon with the new spider results.

[Omaha]

Since we lost some posts, I'll re-post some questions/comments:

1) What is the desired way to share a VL4 across two guitars, each with different downstream amp paths? Right now, I am thinking install an A/B switch downstream (on the guitar thru output) and just unplug and replug the two guitars. Anyone got a better idea?

2) Any way to route un-processed vocals to your board's monitor channel, short of splitting the signal before it gets to the VL4?

3) What exactly is stereo about the stereo outputs? Near as I can tell, its a straight splitter.

I wish the VL4 had separate "guitar thru" and "vocal thru" outputs. That would be nice. They assumed that people would be using the VL4 as a mixer. I'd rather not. It would be nice if the sound guy could bring up the harmonies (eg) without my having to bend down and adjust the mix.

[orbm1]

Thanks Anderton for starting this review... and even though is early in the review, can anybody upload some demos of the vl4 and how it sounds?

Hope this could happen! soon....

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[SoloArtist]

Michael,

Regarding the "hiss", in the VL4, I assume you've already tried engaging the ground lift switch? My Guitar Thru cable gets sent to my Super Chorus stompbox and then to my PA system.

I'm hooked into a Roland SA-300 which is a 350 watt stage amp with its own mixer. I do get some background noise but it appears to be from the Super Chorus' modulations. Nothing I haven't heard before. Anyway thanks for posting this. My VL4 is still on backorder but I already have the VL2 and think it's great. So far I am not inclined to cancel my order based on what I've read. That could change though!

SoloArtist

[Anderton]

I don't know which posts were deleted, but you may be able to find them for awhile on google's cache. Just search for DIGITECH VOCALIST LIVE 2 - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS AND VIDEO CLIPS! Page XX and you'll find it there. But be sure to do it ASAP because the cache could be overwritten soon with the new spider results.

Wow, thanks...but unfortunately, the cached version only goes up to page 18. Oh well. The one thing I can say is that everyone on these threads has been so helpful, I'm sure that any information people need will re-appear.

[Michael Angel]

Hi SoloArtist,

My VL4 is on back order too. I was referring to hiss reported by one of the members in the VL2 thread regarding his VL4.

From everything I have read and it has been a lot there is NO WAY I am not getting this thing. It seems to be a truly remarkable piece of equipment. I am just curious if others have experienced the same hiss he had reported.

My initial response to him was to mention the ground lift switch and he said it helped with hum but did nothing with the hiss. He did say that how he set the Gate did seem to have an affect on it but I am most interested in learning if increasing the mic input level has any affect on reducing the hiss.

By the way, it was not reported as being a major problem, especially live. More of a concern in the studio.

Also, he did mention he was using power line conditioning and his system was clean in terms of doing an A/B comparision using mic into his board (no hiss) versus mic into VL4 (hiss).

Anyone else experiencing a similar problem? Have you found any work around solutions? Any constructive feedback on the matter would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Anderton]

Since we lost some posts, I'll re-post some questions/comments:

1) What is the desired way to share a VL4 across two guitars, each with different downstream amp paths? Right now, I am thinking install an A/B switch downstream (on the guitar thru output) and just unplug and replug the two guitars. Anyone got a better idea?

I think what you want is a variation on "effects loop" technology. I would advise a DPDT switch, mounted in a box, with six jacks. Hopefully the attached schematic will do the job for you! It switches the source guitar to the VL4 Guitar In, and the destination amp from the VL4 Guitar Thru.

2) Any way to route un-processed vocals to your board's monitor channel, short of splitting the signal before it gets to the VL4?

If there is, I haven't found it.

3) What exactly is stereo about the stereo outputs? Near as I can tell, its a straight splitter.

The harmonies are output in stereo.

[Anderton]

I was referring to hiss reported by one of the members in the VL2 thread regarding his VL4.

From everything I have read and it has been a lot there is NO WAY I am not getting this thing. It seems to be a truly remarkable piece of equipment. I am just curious if others have experienced the same hiss he had reported.

I didn't have hiss issues with the VL2. I've only used the VL4 in a band rehearsal context, and if there was hiss, the guitar and drums did an excellent job of masking it :) However, I do hit the levels fairly hard, and that may be the solution - just turn up the gain. As I record audio examples of the VL4, it will go under the microscope a bit more and we'll see what we find.

I don't know how the metering in the VL4 works, but many LED meters will "hold" transients for a short period of time. So, even a 2 ms spike that you would never perceive could end up indicating an overload condition. Although LEDs are useful, I still end up adjusting my ear, and using the LEDs to confirm.

[Anderton]

I ended up using the VL4 during rehearsal today, and found it both simple and difficult to figure out. Simple because it was easy to set up, and get a good major 3rd harmony happening. I turned off MusIQ as the song was pretty basic, so the harmonies were perfect whether I played guitar or not.

The difficult part is that there are a lot more options! For example, I've never encountered a "Persona" parameter before so I really did need to crack the manual to find out what this was all about. There are a LOT of novelty/totally out there sounds along with the usual suspects, and I bet some of them are really useable once you figure out a context. I didn't find the Unison option like on the VL2 immediately, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere...I just added some chorus and short pre-delay.

It appears to me (and someone from DigiTech is welcome to chime in if I'm wrong) is that the VL4 is designed for two major contexts:

1. As a super version of the VL2 with presets, more options, pitch correction, more algorithms, etc. In other words, a major league voice tweaker for live use.

2. An "all-in-one" box where a solo performer can do the above vocal tricks, but also add in guitar processing. For my purposes, I'm not going to get rid of my GNX3000 or PODxt any time soon in favor of the effects in the VL4, but I would imagine this could really simplify life for a lot of live performers.

One thing is clear: With the VL2, I used it more or less as a set-and-forget box. I plan to exploit the VL4 much, much more for the band.

[pickinatit]

To those that already have the VL2 or VL4:

Sorry if these seem like silly questions.

I have fellow band members poo-pooing the idea of the VL2 or VL4 on the basis of "poor sound quality ie: electronic, artificial sounding....even though they have never heard one or even read any of the reviews.
I'm convinced from what I've read in these threads that they're ok, especially live.
But just for some additional reassurance before I spend the bucks for something my band won't want to use:

For live band use, is the quality of the harmony vocals good?
On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate them compared to "real" live
voices?

Also, How much of a problem do you encounter, if any, when the guitar needs to stop playing chords to play riffs and such. Say for a Power Trio type band with only one guitar. I'm trying to figure how much of a problem this would be in the context of the songs we do and how often it would even happen compared to when harmonies are needed, but that's pretty difficult to calculate especially since I play bass. I know it would depend on the particular song etc....I just mean in general.

Lastly, how preoccupied does someone in the band need to be regarding when to hit the footswitches on and off? Who does this in your band? If you have a front person/vocalist only do you make them responsible? Wouldn't that detract from whoever is responsible's ability to "be part of the show" so to speak?
Just wondering how others handle this. I can't help but see this as a potential nightmare that could take SO much of the fun out of playing.

[Omaha]

Caveat on these comments: I am the lead singer/guitar player in a working classic rock cover band. I've had the VL4 for a couple days, and have experimented with it for a total of about six hours in my studio at home. I haven't used it with the band yet, and I haven't run it through our full PA (just my little Marshall AS50R practice amp).

For live band use, is the quality of the harmony vocals good?

Compared to what? It really comes down to the band. If you have three or four good singers that can consistently hit their harmonies, I wouldn't bother with the VL4.

But my experience is that that's pretty rare. Most bands are lucky to have one decent singer singing leads. In those cases, the VL4 seems like a great option. Its not going to be the equal of having a cadre of pro's singing backup, but for the average working band, its going to be a huge improvement over where they are currently.

One other consideration is that the VL4 will allow you to get new material performance-ready much more quickly.

Also, How much of a problem do you encounter, if any, when the guitar needs to stop playing chords to play riffs and such. Say for a Power Trio type band with only one guitar.

Good question. I don't know the answer. But I will say this: I had heard that the VL4 struggled with fingerstyle, preferring chords to glean the key. I tested that, and found that it actually did a pretty good job. Plus, depending on the harmony voices you are using, it may or may not be a disaster if it misses a key change (or is late).

Lastly, how preoccupied does someone in the band need to be regarding when to hit the footswitches on and off?

In our band, I'll be operating the VL4. As I said, I'm the lead singer.

Playing around with it, I think I prefer the "hold the switch down to engage harmonies" mode, rather than toggle mode. But I'll wait until we have a few gigs with it to finalize that decision.

[Omaha]

Regarding pitch correction, I am curious how it works with harmonies.

The section of the manual dealing with PC is simple enough. From what I can tell, in the real world, you will set it to "CHROM"atic scale, set the window parameter to 99, set to rate to 30, and set the amount to 99. From what I could see, those were the settings that Digitech used for all the presets that had PC turned on.

But how does that effect harmony voices?

For example, p19 of the manual lists a bunch of harmony options, among them:

U - Unison. Creates a copy of the lead vocal.
UC - Unicon corrected. Creates a copy of the lead vocal with pitch correction.

That's where I get confused. Suppose you have PC turned off on a given preset, but select the "UC" harmony. Is only the harmony voice corrected (leaving the original vocal unaltered)? If so, what parameters are used for the harmony pitch correction?

It also says : "Turning on ...pitch correction requires the use of a harmony voice".

Suppose I turn PC on, but have all harmonies off. What happens? Is pitch correction occurring? Is it a blend of the natural signal and the processed signal?

I am also sending this question to DigiTech directly. I'll post any response I get.

[Omaha]

I've been corresponding with DigiTech on these questions. Here's what I've learned:

The harmonies are generated after the pitch correction occurs. Therefore if you have pitch correction turned on, the harmonies will be corrected automatically:

"Raw Vocal" --> "Pitch Corrector" --> "Harmony Generator"

But I was never able to get an answer to how the UC harmony works. If I have PC turned off, and am using the UC harmony, what happens?

[SoloArtist]

Hi SoloArtist,

My VL4 is on back order too. I was referring to hiss reported by one of the members in the VL2 thread regarding his VL4.

From everything I have read and it has been a lot there is NO WAY I am not getting this thing. It seems to be a truly remarkable piece of equipment. I am just curious if others have experienced the same hiss he had reported.

My initial response to him was to mention the ground lift switch and he said it helped with hum but did nothing with the hiss. He did say that how he set the Gate did seem to have an affect on it but I am most interested in learning if increasing the mic input level has any affect on reducing the hiss.

By the way, it was not reported as being a major problem, especially live. More of a concern in the studio.

Also, he did mention he was using power line conditioning and his system was clean in terms of doing an A/B comparision using mic into his board (no hiss) versus mic into VL4 (hiss).

Anyone else experiencing a similar problem? Have you found any work around solutions? Any constructive feedback on the matter would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Gottcha! Hum or Hiss, if its audible it needs to be corrected. I've switched to condenser microphones which of course take phantom power right from the VL2. I had to adjust the gain and nearly everything else because that thing howled like a banshee when I started singing!

Regarding our backordered VL4's, I'm willing to take a chance even if I read something negative here. We may actually not experience what someone else has. If we do, well, back it goes! So while I read everything here, I don't assume I will have the same problems as there are variables according to equipment and acoustics.

Thanks,

SoloArtist

[Omaha]

If I have PC turned off, and am using the UC harmony, what happens?

Answering my own question based on DigiTech's e-mail, the answer is that you get a straight unison without any pitch correction.

Which still makes me wonder why there is a "U" setting and a "UC" setting...It makes no sense.

[whinersmusic]

I didn't have hiss issues with the VL2. I've only used the VL4 in a band rehearsal context, and if there was hiss, the guitar and drums did an excellent job of masking it :) However, I do hit the levels fairly hard, and that may be the solution - just turn up the gain. As I record audio examples of the VL4, it will go under the microscope a bit more and we'll see what we find.

I don't know how the metering in the VL4 works, but many LED meters will "hold" transients for a short period of time. So, even a 2 ms spike that you would never perceive could end up indicating an overload condition. Although LEDs are useful, I still end up adjusting my ear, and using the LEDs to confirm.

I'm the dude with the hiss comments. I've tried the gain and loop adjusts but find you will get distortion as you raise it up to the green/amber levels - this when harmony is kicked in. I posted more about this on the old thread and believe that DigiTech has programmed in a boost of sorts (akin to some effect pedals when you stomp on you get a boost on level). That makes level adjustments very critical.

I went back and listened to the on-line demo of the unit and I can hear some of this in that demo actually. It's just a clipping of sorts when the harmony is on. It's especially noticeable with the VL 2 and an issue beyond hiss. Try the test yourself. Set up your level with no harmony and it will sound fine. Sing your favorite tune. Then engage the harmony and sing it again - you'll hear the boost and subsequent distortion. Playing with compression et al can help to some degree but you will find you have to lower your levels at the unit to avoid this altogether. What I've found is this: guitar signal needs to be green green green ... vocal level needs to be just nudging green as in mild green flicker not constant or amber.

RECORDING AND HISS
When I refer to hiss I am talking recording here. I expect as quiet a signal as possible and when you can hear the unit over and above room noise it is not a good thing. So, I think I'd conclude that the TC Helicon is better when it comes to recording from the hiss standpoint. I said about a 3 or 4 as opposed to 5 or 6 for the DIgiTech (where 10 is horrible and 1 is quiet).

I guess everyone has their own threshold where it becomes an issue but I have done demos using the Helicon and now with the VL 2 and VL 4. Both the DigiTech products are giving off more hiss without even starting anything. You can hear it on the quiet parts of songs or really when you just bring up the pots.

I especially find the gate opening and closing on the VL 2 very annoying - you don't have the same control of the gate as on the VL 4. I'm finding I can't use the compressor/gate at all when recording with the VL 2. With the VL 4, I've been trying the gate control at different settings but I mentioned in a previous post how the sweet spot isn't quite there. It rasters in 10s (I posted 20s in the old post by memory error). So the mid ground between 40 and 50 would seem better than 40 or 50 dead on but you can't get there in between. A lot of my material goes form loud to quiet and it's at the quiet points that you get the bad stuff coming in such as the gate opening and closing off from your guitar playing. This from "off-the-floor" demos.

LIVE NO ISSUES
However I want to reiterate that live ambiance covers virtually all of this. No one is going to notice any of the problems using the unit(s) live.

I'm being very picky on the recording aspect since I feel most listeners will not expect to hear hiss at all in your demo (like you used to get on cassette demos). The digital age has spoiled a lot of people myself included. I'm curious whether everyone else will agree/disagree when they get into recording with these units. Maybe I'm being overly critical.

In side by side test with DigiTech vs. Helicon, the Helicon is quieter. Same set up for the tests using SM 58 mic. In fact, when you read the specs on the two units (much more info is supplied for the VL 4 to compare with), it does read as better for the TC Helicon. I think the TC Helicon people have a stronger background with making "recording rack mount units" in this field and that may account for a tougher (higher) standard.

[whinersmusic]

Gottcha! Hum or Hiss, if its audible it needs to be corrected. I've switched to condenser microphones which of course take phantom power right from the VL2. I had to adjust the gain and nearly everything else because that thing howled like a banshee when I started singing!

Regarding our backordered VL4's, I'm willing to take a chance even if I read something negative here. We may actually not experience what someone else has. If we do, well, back it goes! So while I read everything here, I don't assume I will have the same problems as there are variables according to equipment and acoustics.

Thanks,

SoloArtist

An excellent point. When you read lots of reviews you do get some wild differences don't you? Some people will hate it while others will praise it. I guess that's why it is good to describe what you do with the items and what you like or expect. It becomes easier to gauge whether or not you are reading someone of like mind or not. A recent comment to one of my posts talking about chipmunk settings confirms this where the person uses the setting in his gigs for kids. I had said "what a waste" but there is a good example of where having it available is a value for someone else!

I have to say though that I have found the gang here to be generally tolerant of everyone's "thing" and in no way making one feel like they are stupid for doing something or not knowing something. Very nice!

The discussions back and forth are also great as it helps a process that we all go through on new pieces of gear.

Cheers to 'ya'll!

[Anderton]

I have fellow band members poo-pooing the idea of the VL2 or VL4 on the basis of "poor sound quality ie: electronic, artificial sounding....even though they have never heard one or even read any of the reviews. For live band use, is the quality of the harmony vocals good?

I'll give you analogy: The harmony voices are to real voices as electronic reverb is to real reverb. In other words, yes, you can tell the difference and most of the time, no, it doesn't matter.

I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice. As a result the harmonies are mixed fairly low and because my "real" voice is the dominant part of the mix, they sound fine.

Also, How much of a problem do you encounter, if any, when the guitar needs to stop playing chords to play riffs and such. Say for a Power Trio type band with only one guitar. I'm trying to figure how much of a problem this would be in the context of the songs we do and how often it would even happen compared to when harmonies are needed, but that's pretty difficult to calculate especially since I play bass. I know it would depend on the particular song etc....I just mean in general.

I've been very surprised about how when I drop back from chords to single notes, the harmony follows along. I asked one of the designers about this, and he said that the unit has some degree of "memory" that is constantly looking at the signal from the mic, the guitar, and the history of the chord progression. In my own situation, when I'm playing off-the-wall leads, I'm usually not signing so it's not a problem. But I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the VL units handle harmonies when the "song data" drops out for a bit.

Lastly, how preoccupied does someone in the band need to be regarding when to hit the footswitches on and off? Who does this in your band? If you have a front person/vocalist only do you make them responsible? Wouldn't that detract from whoever is responsible's ability to "be part of the show" so to speak?

Most of the time, for me it's a "set and forget" issue...turn it on, leave it on for most (if not all) of the song.

[Anderton]

Regarding pitch correction, I am curious how it works with harmonies.

The section of the manual dealing with PC is simple enough. From what I can tell, in the real world, you will set it to "CHROM"atic scale, set the window parameter to 99, set to rate to 30, and set the amount to 99. From what I could see, those were the settings that Digitech used for all the presets that had PC turned on.

But how does that effect harmony voices?

For example, p19 of the manual lists a bunch of harmony options, among them:

U - Unison. Creates a copy of the lead vocal.
UC - Unicon corrected. Creates a copy of the lead vocal with pitch correction.

That's where I get confused. Suppose you have PC turned off on a given preset, but select the "UC" harmony. Is only the harmony voice corrected (leaving the original vocal unaltered)? If so, what parameters are used for the harmony pitch correction?

It also says : "Turning on ...pitch correction requires the use of a harmony voice".

Suppose I turn PC on, but have all harmonies off. What happens? Is pitch correction occurring? Is it a blend of the natural signal and the processed signal?

I am also sending this question to DigiTech directly. I'll post any response I get.

The unison (U) voicing has no pitch correction – so if you hold a note that’s 10 cents flat, the unison voice will be flat as well. Note that this unison voice will still be decoupled from your lead vocal, and the type and amount of decoupling can be adjusted with the Voice Styles and Style Amount controls in the harmony row. So you have quite a bit of control over the type of voice doubling if you like to play with that sort of thing.

The corrected unison voice (UC) is not only decoupled according to the Voice Style, but is also lightly pitch corrected as well. Basically you’ll find that if you hold a note that’s a little flat or sharp, the UC voice will move to the correct pitch in a natural way. The actual pitch correction parameters used for this voice (and all the harmony voices) were chosen to keep the harmonies sounding natural.

The lead vocal is never processed with pitch correction when Pitch Correction is off. *So if you have UC voicing, and pitch correction off, you’ll hear your own pitch as the lead voice and the lightly pitch corrected unison voice when you turn on the harmonies.

No matter what the setting is on your harmonies, or whether they are on or off, turning on Pitch Correction will cause your lead voice to be fully pitch corrected – there will never be a blend of your natural and pitch corrected signals. If you want this kind of doubling, you’d probably use the UC harmony voicing. * *

[whinersmusic]

Caveat on these comments: I am the lead singer/guitar player in a working classic rock cover band. I've had the VL4 for a couple days, and have experimented with it for a total of about six hours in my studio at home. I haven't used it with the band yet, and I haven't run it through our full PA (just my little Marshall AS50R practice amp).



Compared to what? It really comes down to the band. If you have three or four good singers that can consistently hit their harmonies, I wouldn't bother with the VL4.

But my experience is that that's pretty rare. Most bands are lucky to have one decent singer singing leads. In those cases, the VL4 seems like a great option. Its not going to be the equal of having a cadre of pro's singing backup, but for the average working band, its going to be a huge improvement over where they are currently.

One other consideration is that the VL4 will allow you to get new material performance-ready much more quickly.



Good question. I don't know the answer. But I will say this: I had heard that the VL4 struggled with fingerstyle, preferring chords to glean the key. I tested that, and found that it actually did a pretty good job. Plus, depending on the harmony voices you are using, it may or may not be a disaster if it misses a key change (or is late).



In our band, I'll be operating the VL4. As I said, I'm the lead singer.

Playing around with it, I think I prefer the "hold the switch down to engage harmonies" mode, rather than toggle mode. But I'll wait until we have a few gigs with it to finalize that decision.

Just wanted to comment on the singer engaging the harmony. I'm assuming here you are also not playing while singing. You might find it a little weird and I'd be interested in finding out. I'm finding that the harmony behaves (or misbehaves) and I do have to be careful how I strike chords while singing. Often, a complex chord is an issue in the harmony as is singing over (memory seems more like 10 secs than "30 secs). So, I think you might find, that being the singer and not in control of how the chord is played, may cause some issues until you can coordinate with the player who is tied into the unit. This is an interesting scenario to deal with and one where using keys may be better for you. Anyone else dealing with that?

I have also found that the locking toggle switch is giving me grief since I can't view the light on/off at the floor while singing. I've had harmony on when I didn't want it and vice versa. So, the VL 4, having the option of toggle or no toggle is a good option. The non-toggle keeps it clear. If your foot is on the switch you know you've got harmony on.

I'm going to investigate if I can defeat the toggle on the VL 2 (no doubt voiding warranty while I do it) but it will be worth it to have the non-toggle thing going on.

[geckoland]

Whinersmusic,

I'm the one who liked the chipmunk persona! But it was my kids that liked it. I haven't yet used it in a gig ... But regardless, I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing.

I have been reading these posts on hiss with some confusion because I have not had any problems with hiss. I used to own a Helicon VoiceLive, and I don't find the hiss any worse on either of my Vocalist Live units compared to the VoiceLive, although I have not done A/B tests. The following comment you made has shed some light on this for me ...


Try the test yourself. Set up your level with no harmony and it will sound fine. Sing your favorite tune. Then engage the harmony and sing it again - you'll hear the boost and subsequent distortion. Playing with compression et al can help to some degree but you will find you have to lower your levels at the unit to avoid this altogether. What I've found is this: guitar signal needs to be green green green ... vocal level needs to be just nudging green as in mild green flicker not constant or amber.



I always set my mic level so that I am tickling the red on the loudest sections, and I have not heard the distortion that you are speaking of when I kick my harmonies on. I tried turning my mic level down so that it was just tickling the green as you do and turned up my PA to compensate - sure enough, the hiss got a lot louder as I expected. If it was like this all the time, I would be complaining too! But like you say, even with the hiss at this level, no one would notice in a live situation.

I think the problem you are having is not the hiss, but the distortion you are hearing when you turn your mic gain up to the proper level. Where is this distortion coming from? What are you connecting the output of the VL 4 to? Is it possible you are over driving your mixer or something (if so, did you try turning down the sensitivity)? Do you hear this distortion on the headphone out as well?

I have to admit, the output of the Vocalist Live units is quite hot. I have read some posts where people are hooking the output of their VLs to pre-amps (i.e. where they used to send their old mic signal), but the output of the VL is already pre-amped so this is unnecessary.

Geckoland

[Anderton]

Geckoland, I think you're on to something with the hiss aspects...I don't have a problem with it either, but hopefully, I'll get to take some measurements and get something quantitative.

The other comment of yours I found interesting is: "I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing."

ABSOLUTELY!! I always felt one advantage of a pro review is how it's easy to get turned on to different applications. One quick example: I've been working on a song called "Try" with the band, and there's a place where there's a vocal more or less in isolation. It seemed that whatever guitar part I put behind it just didn't work. If it was powerful, like the rest of the song, it overshadowed the vocal. If I pulled back on the guitar, it sounded weak compared to the subsequent parts.

Then I read the comment where someone asked if anyone had figured out how to do Beach Boy harmonies yet, and the light bulb went on: Do the voice a capella, and throw everything the VL4 has at it! I have a rough patch that sounds pretty good...I think it's going in the right direction.

The VL4 is so similar to the VL2 yet so different...so many more possibilities.

[whinersmusic]

Whinersmusic,

I'm the one who liked the chipmunk persona! But it was my kids that liked it. I haven't yet used it in a gig ... But regardless, I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing.

I have been reading these posts on hiss with some confusion because I have not had any problems with hiss. I used to own a Helicon VoiceLive, and I don't find the hiss any worse on either of my Vocalist Live units compared to the VoiceLive, although I have not done A/B tests. The following comment you made has shed some light on this for me ...

I always set my mic level so that I am tickling the red on the loudest sections, and I have not heard the distortion that you are speaking of when I kick my harmonies on. I tried turning my mic level down so that it was just tickling the green as you do and turned up my PA to compensate - sure enough, the hiss got a lot louder as I expected. If it was like this all the time, I would be complaining too! But like you say, even with the hiss at this level, no one would notice in a live situation.

I think the problem you are having is not the hiss, but the distortion you are hearing when you turn your mic gain up to the proper level. Where is this distortion coming from? What are you connecting the output of the VL 4 to? Is it possible you are over driving your mixer or something (if so, did you try turning down the sensitivity)? Do you hear this distortion on the headphone out as well?

I have to admit, the output of the Vocalist Live units is quite hot. I have read some posts where people are hooking the output of their VLs to pre-amps (i.e. where they used to send their old mic signal), but the output of the VL is already pre-amped so this is unnecessary.

Geckoland

Hey Geckoland - just wasn't able to look up your name from before while writing the last item. Here is more elaboration. Levels are somewhat subjective of course but I'll say, I've tried bumping it up and lowering it off. When I get a nice green on the voice (no harmony) everything is pure and strong. But, kick on the harmony switch, and the level goes up and distorts or clips - not a lot but there is clipping. This is why I think there is a boost in the unit. It just isn't as pure and, when comparing to the TC Helicon not as good. The Helicon also has distortion/clipping issues but you can control the harmony level with much more precision including each level independently. I have found the edge comes as you engage harmony and I think there has to be something going on there. The analogy I make is to your back up singers (if they were live) eating their mics where they should back off a bit. You can't really control if they eat the mic from the mixer just force them to back off - the Helicon can do that kind of adjustment.

If no one else is hearing it then it could very well be my unit I suppose. I got a lemon TC Helicon actually so nothing would surprise me. I have two VL 2s at the moment and both do it though as does the VL 4 but you have some extra control on this unit that is not available on the VL 2.

Here is my philosophy on sound levels: generally you want a reliable level on the loudest point of your vocal - just below distortion. You have to leave the headroom on the mixer or you will peak beyond the threshold and distort. If you bring your level up too high for the moderate to low bits, you will regret it on the louder passages as you clip. Some mixers and recorders are better at advance alerting of clipping than others and you can make a better assessment of where to land.

You do want to push it as close to the edge as you can always. I've been playing with the levels since I got the unit and, on recording and through headphones, it's just not as good as it should be. This is true on the recording monitor and then listening on the playback. I mean here, it could be the mixer phones so I tried recording and then playing back on other units live and through phones. The hiss is present always but, your vocal will mask a lot of the hiss - as does your guitar sound on guitar levels too. My issue is on the quieter passages - pauses etc, that's where your level will not be high enough to mask the equipment noise itself.

I'm using power cleaned AC and can tell the difference between the units just right from the get go. Especially if you take your mic direct into the board and not use the unit vs. going into the unit and to the board.

I am talking subtly to some degree but it is there to my ears. The hiss, of course, being different to the distortion/clipping issue.

If no one else reports in about these, then you can assume it's me I guess. I mentioned going back to the demo at the DigiTech website. I hear it there as well when the harmony is on during the demo. I am currently listening to a song at my computer. Everything is fine ... no issues. When I listen to the DigiTech demo, I get the clipping on the audio ... it's not there when the dude is talking about the unit but is there when he adds his harmony demos.

So perhaps it's the audio clip itself or still just me. Anyway, try the objective test of mic in/no unit vs. mic in/with the unit and I predict you will pick up the extra machine noise. It's all about quality in and out and anytime you add something you do get more noise but, that can be corrected or amended to the positive with higher end materials et al.

I guess, bottom line, I'm saying we are getting a bit of what we pay for. If the unit were double in price we'd have more absolute studio quality. That's where I hear a difference in the Helicon - it's got to be better parts I'd say.

I hope that helps define my opinion or mind set vis-a-vis my earlier comments on how people can take reviews. I'd say I'm someone who doesn't want to hear any extra hiss or clipping at all on a recording. Live is a bit different and even forgiving - you can get away with so much more. But, when something is preserved for a long time on a CD, then you don't want the perfect take ruined because of the equipment limitations.

As more people work with the unit, please let us know your take on the "quality" . There will no doubt be a trend on reactions. Right now my vote would be to track real harmonies or go for the Helicon if you are wanting to get the best studio audio recorded possible.

[Chumly]

The fact that the VL4 has scalic modes etc like its predecessors, and yet has no MIDI access, unlike its predecessors, is going to be a major frustration for anyone that uses sequences and wants to reduce footswitch tap-dancing (that's me for example).

Also Anderton's views of leaving the VL4 on for an entire tune and thus using it more as vocal enhancement does not apply well to a lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles. Clearly a lot of lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles require the harmonies to be rather notable and to be engaged / disengaged in a timely and repetitive manner (lots of tap-dancing wih the VL4).

I am likely to still buy one because I really appreciate the MusIQ, but it really pisses me off they left out MIDI.

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc and/or use sequences or other MIDI control thus do not want more boxes clogging up precious stage real-estate. Also the extra setup / tear-down time of more non-rack mount devices on the floor and the higher risk of theft / damage as compared to rack-mount.

Perhaps DigiTech's market analysis pointed to an ease-of-use simple floor-unit. However the Fender VG Strat fails for a similar reason in that Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so you cannot access guitar synths! One might assume Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so as not to compete with the Roland-Ready Strat. However DigiTech does not appear to have similar concerns in that there is no other DigiTech device (at least not yet) that would compete with the VL4, if the VL4 did indeed have MIDI.

That is unless of course DigiTech plans on bringing out a rack version and they want to "save" MIDI to maximize the rack version's marketing appeal (speculation).

In any case I do not think it is very likely that DigiTech left out MIDI on the VL4 due to pricing concerns given that such MIDI implementation exists in the other DigiTech harmonizers. As such I think it was a big marketing boo-boo to leave out MIDI on the VL4.

Perhaps some insight into DigiTech's marking-think can be gleaned by comparing the RP 350 to the GSP 1101. Both rather new and both sharing a lot of common internals, however the GSP 1101 has MIDI and is rack-mount, the RP 350 is bereft of MIDI and is a floor device.

We have all seen the marketing plan of bringing out various simpler floor units, and then at a later date bringing out a rack-mount "plus" version, however even if DigiTech is going to do this it does not excuse no MIDI on the VL4, albeit such a rationale might excuse it on the VL2.

If there soon will be a rack-mount and MIDI capable VL4 as done in a similar marketing fashion to the RP 350 / GSP110 then I guess we will all have our answer! You know, I think I might just wait and continue to use my TC VoiceWorks rack-mount, after all it still has a few things going for it (alas no MusIQ) such as superior effects, more realistic harmonies and harmony hold - a very fun feature!

[Anderton]

Anderton's views of leaving the VL4 on for an entire tune and thus using it more as vocal enhancement does not apply well to a lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles. Clearly a lot of lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles require the harmonies to be rather notable and to be engaged / disengaged in a timely and repetitive manner (lots of tap-dancing wih the VL4).

Yes, what I'm doing is yet another way to apply the VL4. The context is that it's just me on Digital Les Paul and Brian Hardgroove on drums, with a big, hard rock type sound. Brian also sings, so basically, that's the heavy lifting for harmonies...the VL is there mainly to make my voice sound better :)

I am likely to still buy one because I really appreciate the MusIQ, but it really pisses me off they left out MIDI.

MIDI would have been convenient, but do read my posts about using other instruments with the VL2. It's a workaround, but the audio out from a MIDI-driven synthesizer provides the same basic functionality as MIDI. The only real negative is you can't just take a MIDI out from your interface and plug it into the VL, you have to translate it to audio first.

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc and/or use sequences or other MIDI control thus do not want more boxes clogging up precious stage real-estate. Also the extra setup / tear-down time of more non-rack mount devices on the floor and the higher risk of theft / damage as compared to rack-mount.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but I suspect the MusIQ technology will show up in studio-oriented rack units as well.

Perhaps DigiTech's market analysis pointed to an ease-of-use simple floor-unit. However the Fender VG Strat fails for a similar reason in that Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so you cannot access guitar synths! One might assume Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so as not to compete with the Roland-Ready Strat.

I honestly don't think that was the issue, as I'm sure Roland/Fender doesn't care which of their products you buy as long as it's their products. I see perhaps the same forces as work as with the VL: Wanting to make a non-intimidating package optimized for live use, and capable of appealing to a less technically-sophisticated user.

Someone from DigiTech can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see is that DT wanted to bring out a unit optimized for live performance because, TC's VoiceLive aside, it's a wide-open field and there's nothing like the MusIQ feature. There are already plenty of rack units that take MIDI in, and so it's a much tougher field to compete in. Speaking personally, I have a VoicePrism that works fine in the studio, but the VL4 is a far better choice to take out on a gig.

Perhaps some insight into DigiTech's marking-think can be gleaned by comparing the RP 350 to the GSP 1101. Both rather new and both sharing a lot of common internals, however the GSP 1101 has MIDI and is rack-mount, the RP 350 is bereft of MIDI and is a floor device.

Good point (although the RP 350 does have USB). I think that MIDI is still thought of as more of a "studio" thing. It certainly wouldn't benefit me when gigging, but would when using the VL in the studio...although again, it's called the Vocalist Live, not the Vocalist Studio, which I think indicates their intention. It may be that they felt including MIDI would muddy the waters about whether the VL was a live or studio device, as well as provide a further point of confusion.

As a tweakhead I agree it would be nice to have the MIDI option, assuming it didn't add too much to the price. But I think DigiTech really wanted to be able to walk into a bar and see some singer/songwriting with a phobia about techology happily generating harmonies, and designed the unit with that target market in mind. I'm sure there will be more sophisticated options in the years ahead, given the success of the VLs.

[Omaha]

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc

I've been thinking a lot about those sorts of questions, and I think I have the answer.

I think DigiTech did a wonderful job emphasizing simplicity. Clearly, the "sweet spot" they designed for is the solo performer who will run his own sound from the stage. With that in mind, the VL4 is perfect.

In my case, I'm not quite that guy. I play in a band and we have our own sound guy that runs the board from the audience. Big difference.

But to really take advantage of that, the VL4 would have to be significantly different. And significantly more complicated.

In the end, I think we can each look at this and think of a set of features we would like to add or change. It is to DigiTech's credit that they maintained the discipline to keep the design simple.

You want a midi-capable, rack-mountable harmony generator? Helicon has it. But that's not what the VL4 is all about.

[SoloArtist]

Hey Everybody,

I agree with everything being said here, especially Keith's insights on how one application, i.e. recording holds higher demands for sound quality than let's say, a live performance.

I am currently in the middle of recording a demo CD with the BOSS 1200CD. Would I use the VL2 in this application? Probabaly not but I will try doing an alternate track with my vocals using the VL2. Artists are not afraid of experimenting but when our music is preserved on a CD, we don't want to wince over the results years later! I mean what's the point of recording then? Bad recordings have a way of coming back to bite you.

I am primarily looking to use these units for live performances. As my name implies, I show up alone. Sometimes I may have the luxury of a backup vocalist who also plays the harmonica on breaks but that's about it. No road crew or sound guys. So anything that I can do to make myself stand out in the crowd, (in a good way that is!), is worth looking into.

Here's the kicker. I used the VL2 for the first time in a live performance earlier this month. Whoa. You should have seen the heads whirling around when I kicked in those harmonies! Mind you I had already been using a mixer with reverb and delay plus DR-3 Drum & Bass Machine so my stuff isn't that dry. However the VL2 made all of the difference in the world because my vocals are what drive the performance. I don't think it was any coincidence that they booked me into 2008 right after that! Thank God, I was willing to take a chance and try something new. Sometimes that's really more of the problem than the equipment. Trying something that we are not familiar with. I'm willing to jump in. I've taken a few things back that were junky, namely Digitech's RP whatever model guitar processor. It kept cutting off my instrument's signal. Should have seen how fast that got returned to the store. Like the next day! However, I didn't let that jade me from trying their VL2 which has been the best upgrade to my sound next to switching to a recording studio quality condenser microphone. Well, that's just my 2 cents worth.

Bless everyone here!

SoloArtist

[gc24]

Then I read the comment where someone asked if anyone had figured out how to do Beach Boy harmonies yet, and the light bulb went on: Do the voice a capella, and throw everything the VL4 has at it! I have a rough patch that sounds pretty good...I think it's going in the right direction.


Can you elaborate on that for a bit on how to get it that way?

[Chumly]

Thank you for the kind responses guys!

I have done a live high-tech solo act for 30 years (I started with the TB303 / TR 606 to four-track tape).

I use a laptop now as do many of my compatriot solo acts (and duo acts). Thus patch change data and other real-time MIDI controllers are easily implemented and are more comfortable / simpler than tap-dancing with toys all over the floor.

I understand what DigiTech was aiming for, but in doing so they left out the middle-ground people like me that do use MIDI live, and don't have a lot of stage-floor real-estate. As mentioned it could not have cost much more to implement MIDI into the (at present flagship harmonizer) VL4.

Thus I see the VL4 as perhaps more of a marketing success than a success of flexible implementation, the Vl2's non-MIDI status is more understandable re: cost / friendliness.

I do really dig the MusIQ, and yep I own the TC VoiceWorks (as already mentioned), in fact I have been using harmonizers live on my vocals since the DigiTech ISP33B came out.

Including my VoiceWorks I still own three vocal harmonizers and have owned a total of five including the venerable ISP 33BB.

I have used them all for live use only, so I am in the position of having a lot of experience in what makes a good live unit (marketing aside)!

[keelin]

i dont really know everything this thing does, but as someone who isnt a great singer, but wants to do some recording possibly with some vocals, will this, or anything else out there, automatically "pitch correct" when you hit an off note?

[fuzzball]

Some great info here!

[Chumly]

MIDI would have been convenient, but do read my posts about using other instruments with the VL2. It's a workaround, but the audio out from a MIDI-driven synthesizer provides the same basic functionality as MIDI. The only real negative is you can't just take a MIDI out from your interface and plug it into the VL, you have to translate it to audio first.While yes it's true that I could program a series of chords into my sequences (taking into account the apropos inversions and voicings etc) for the VL4 to follow, if I am going to go to that much trouble, I can simply feed this as real-time MIDI data to my VoiceWorks as it has a MIDI chord recognition mode.

On the downside however the VW's MIDI chord recognition mode is not as sophisticated as the VL4's MusIQ but it certainly gets you out of the static scalic / chordal modes that have received some justifiable criticism as of late.

I would not buy the VL series with the expectation of feeding it sequenced synth audio, too much work for too little gain over the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI chord data. And/or the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI patch change / controller data!

Now if I did a solo keyboard act, and I could dedicate enough of my left hand and an audio out to the VL series perhaps, then again I use a Brain Moore i2.13 and an Axon AX100, so I have a MIDI chord out and could trigger my VoiceWorks, the only problem being the VoiceWorks does not have MusIQ! My understanding (I have not tried it) is that the VoiceWorks does not behave as well as MusIQ with singe line solos etc as transmitted from the AX100 but it has been done by some I chatted with!

Naturally my comments are related to me as a guitarist / singer doing a solo act!

[Chumly]

I honestly don't think that was the issue, as I'm sure Roland/Fender doesn't care which of their products you buy as long as it's their products. I see perhaps the same forces as work as with the VL: Wanting to make a non-intimidating package optimized for live use, and capable of appealing to a less technically-sophisticated user.You may well be right as to the no concern about competition between the RR Strat and the VG Strat however I find it a bit tough to believe that someone would be so scared off by the presence of a 13 pin connector so as not to buy the VG Strat, but by the same token not be scared off by the modeling itself. I think it's another example of unnecessary dumbing down by marketers when you take into account the cost of the VG Strat.

That's why I said perhaps the VL2's lack of MIDI can be justified from a marketing point of view but not so readily the VL4's!

[Michael Angel]

Hey guys,

Anderton wrote, "I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice."

I am very interested in doing the same thing. Setting aside the use of the VL4 for creating traditional harmonies, what setting have you found useful to simply make your singing sound better live?

By the way, Anderton, would you mind elaborating a bit on how you are using the VL4 to fill out and enlarge your voice?

Thanks.

[Anderton]

While yes it's true that I could program a series of chords into my sequences (taking into account the apropos inversions and voicings etc) for the VL4 to follow, if I am going to go to that much trouble, I can simply feed this as real-time MIDI data to my VoiceWorks as it has a MIDI chord recognition mode.

On the downside however the VW's MIDI chord recognition mode is not as sophisticated as the VL4's MusIQ but it certainly gets you out of the static scalic / chordal modes that have received some justifiable criticism as of late.

I would not buy the VL series with the expectation of feeding it sequenced synth audio, too much work for too little gain over the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI chord data. And/or the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI patch change / controller data!

Naturally my comments are related to me as a guitarist / singer doing a solo act!

I see, I was referring more to if you wanted to use the VL4 in the studio in addition to live. BTW when I tested this out I didn't worry about inversions and such, I just hit straight tonic-3-5 block chords and the VL took care of the harmonies. Even with my suggested workaround, remember that feeding audio into the VL4 is just to give it "data" about the key and scale - there's not a one-to-one correlation between notes that are input, and what you get out.

[Chumly]

I fully understand "there's not a one-to-one correlation between notes that are input, and what you get out." There isn't with the VoiceWorks in MIDI chord detection mode ether. Although you can do so in MIDI Note mode with the VoiceWorks! This is something that the VL units cannot do, you cannot "play" your voice from MIDI.

Specific voicings and inversions must have a different effect on outputted harmony notes with MusIQ however else it would not be able to tell the difference between an Am and a C6 for example. With MIDI chord recognition on the latest TC gear, specific voicings and inversions may also produce different outputted harmony notes.

Granted the ability to produce more varied voicings and inversions is the keyboard's forte and not so much a concert pitch tuned 6 stringer! I am getting GAS for the next generation of MusIQ / Rackmount / MIDI / Higher quality algorithms!

[SoloArtist]

LATEST BACKORDER NOTICE ON THE VL4!

Here we go again. I just got another backorder notice from MF saying my VL4shippment is being pushed ahead by 30 days! They're not even giving me an actual date anymore.

The last promised time was October 26th. They said my order would be filled with their last invoice. Anybody else get this notice from MF or know what's going on? I did get the $399.00 price and they also sent a $20.00 discount coupon which I applied to this order so I'm not angry but a bit frustrated.

Thanks,

SoloArtist

[gc24]

What's your favorite presets? I use # 10, 11, 18, 20 most of the time.

[neuro-feed]

You may well be right as to the no concern about competition between the RR Strat and the VG Strat however I find it a bit tough to believe that someone would be so scared off by the presence of a 13 pin connector so as not to buy the VG Strat, but by the same token not be scared off by the modeling itself. I think it's another example of unnecessary dumbing down by marketers when you take into account the cost of the VG Strat.

Well I've agreed 100% with everything you've said thus far Chumly, but I have to disagree with you here. There are maybe a handful of people on this forum (you and myself included) who are remotely interested in guitar synthesis or midi guitar. Modeling, on the other hand, has become much more prevalent, especially in the popularity of digital amp/cabinet modeling and effects. There simply aren't too many guitarists looking to play Hammond B3s on their guitar. They want variety in guitar-related sounds. Other than midi control and guitar synthesis with the 13 pin, you're only guitar-based options for use with 13 pin are Roland's VG series, and at a grand for the newest unit there are much cheaper options out there for guitarists looking to simply have different guitar modeled sounds. (Variax, for example). I see Fender's VG Strat simply as a response to Line 6's Variax series, though they missed the boat with regards to flexibility and editing capability compared to Variax.

As for the VL2 and VL4, I agree that it's disappointing that they don't have midi, and as such I won't be buying because I don't want to clutter the stage with more stuff either, but I still believe that somewhere down the line we'll be seeing a midi-capable rackmount VL unit. But I'm guessing that will be a couple of years away.

[GlennGalen]

Craig A.,

I'd be interested in your review of the VL4 pitch correction vocal quality.

I suspect the reason the pitch corrected main vocal sounds "chorused" and slightly electronic is that it is electronic...it's a Unison Corrected Voice...not your original.

No matter how low you set the correction, your entire voice still "goes through the processor" and emerges as a UC voice.

Result: kind of electronic and "faky". This works fine for many types of songs, such as rock or alternative rock, etc.

But many of my tunes are quieter, simpler tunes where the vocal needs to sound natural and warm and "acoustic". I just cannot get the pitch correction to correct me and pass the voice through without a little electronic edge. Kind of like a slight chorus with a very short "slap delay"...giving kind of a "tiled bathroom reverb" sheen to it almost.

What do you find, Mr. Anderton?

[Chumly]

Well I've agreed 100% with everything you've said thus far Chumly, but I have to disagree with you here. There are maybe a handful of people on this forum (you and myself included) who are remotely interested in guitar synthesis or midi guitar. Modeling, on the other hand, has become much more prevalent, especially in the popularity of digital amp/cabinet modeling and effects. There simply aren't too many guitarists looking to play Hammond B3s on their guitar. They want variety in guitar-related sounds. Other than midi control and guitar synthesis with the 13 pin, you're only guitar-based options for use with 13 pin are Roland's VG series, and at a grand for the newest unit there are much cheaper options out there for guitarists looking to simply have different guitar modeled sounds. (Variax, for example). I see Fender's VG Strat simply as a response to Line 6's Variax series, though they missed the boat with regards to flexibility and editing capability compared to Variax.

As for the VL2 and VL4, I agree that it's disappointing that they don't have midi, and as such I won't be buying because I don't want to clutter the stage with more stuff either, but I still believe that somewhere down the line we'll be seeing a midi-capable rackmount VL unit. But I'm guessing that will be a couple of years away.If tech-phobia plus traditionalism are in fact ingrained into the modern guitarist, they may be a doomed species as it relates to the evolution of modern music, if so it would be an irony considering it was modern electronics that gave the guitar its popularity in the first place!

[orbm1]

Hey guys...
can anybody upload a video or audio file to see/listen the vl4 in action??

Mine is backordered and I would like at least to see it in action.

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[Anderton]

Hey guys,

Anderton wrote, "I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice."

I am very interested in doing the same thing. Setting aside the use of the VL4 for creating traditional harmonies, what setting have you found useful to simply make your singing sound better live?

By the way, Anderton, would you mind elaborating a bit on how you are using the VL4 to fill out and enlarge your voice?

Thanks.

Sure! My experience so far has been with the VL2, but I'm "porting" what I've learned over to the VL4.

What really works well for my voice is to do a 3rd above harmony and a unison voice, then mix it more or less in the background -- the harmony is NOT at the same level as my voice. This makes my voice sound a whole lot bigger, especially with a little bit of delay as well.

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Anderton.

[Michael Angel]

Hoping anyone who has had the time to experiment with the VL4 would tell me what they think about the Tube Pre-amp versus the Harsh pre-amp?

What are your thoughts on the Persona lead effects?

Also, how do you find the Alternate musIQ compares with the Main musIQ?

[Omaha]

I mainly participate at the Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum. I posted this this morning:

Here you go...bunch of stream of consciousness thoughts in no particular order:

We had our first rehearsal with the VL4 on Saturday. Bottom line impression: Keeper.

The thing has 50 different presets. If you find the right one, the results can be amazing! But it also has a bunch of settings that result in laughably unnatural sounds. It really is an instrument in its own right. You have to use it properly to get the right sound.

The drummer in our band thought it kicked ass. The lead guitar player thought it sucked. Then again, he is something of a gear snob (no, he is the ultimate gear snob and won't accept that a DigiTech unit could ever be the equal of the Helicon unit he prefers).

Our sound guy put it like this: The harmonies sound 10% synthetic. I think that's about right. The utility of this box depends a lot on what your options are. If you have three or four guys who can all sing and nail their harmony parts, then you don't need it. But if you don't have a cadre of pro singers, this thing works. And the sound quality is certainly "good enough" for live work. Its not going to cut it in the studio, of course. But in the studio you can just overdub your harmonies and not bother with it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that this box does a lot for you even without the harmony stuff. It has all the standard vocal processing stuff (compression, reverb) as well as some "persona" effects you can apply (such as thickening your voice) that really work. Like most things with the VL4, some of these really work, some sound cartoonish.

I played around a little with the pitch correction...Not sure I like it. If you use it, there is going to be a lot of configuration needed to make it sound right. There are three parameters you can set: The "Window" defines how 'off' you have to be before the PC kicks in, the "Rate" defines how quickly the PC responds and the "Amount" defines how far the correction goes (eg, if you set the "amount" to 50%, and sing a note that is 20 cents flat it will adjust it to 10 cents flat).

On the presets with PC turned on, digitech has those three set at 99, 30 and 99, respectively. My experience is that that is WAY too aggressive...you can easily hear your voice bounce between two notes a half step apart as the PC tries to hone in on it. I had better luck setting the "window" to a much lower value. Something more like 40 or 50. I left the "rate" at 30, and set the "amount" to about 65. That seemed to be more natural. If you can actually hear the PC working, you won't like it. It has to be subtle enough to be unobtrusive. Even after all that screwing around, I'm not sure I like it. If you can't sing on-pitch, then you can't sing. This might save you from the occasional clunker, but it won't make a singer out of you if you can't do it in the first place.

One thing I didn't try but will is setting the "scale" parameter for the PC. All the presets are based on the chromatic scale, so it will adjust to the nearest half step. But you can, for example, specify "A major" of "D harmonic minor" or any other scale. That limits the number of target notes for the PC, and may yield a more natural result. One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system. It seems like a simple thing to configure the PC to where it will always target one of the notes in the chord you are currently playing. Wonder with DigiTech didn't do that...

Some of the presets are REALLY fun: dial in #16 ("Big Guy") and the next thing you know you are BB King. That one sounds stunningly natural, and it is a hoot to sing through.

Speaking of singing through, one of the more challenging things about this box is learning to ignore the harmonies and only listening to your own voice. At first, I would have trouble because I would try to chase one of the harmony voices. The result was not good.

I would prefer it it had an output for unprocessed vocals, so you could run that into your monitor mix and only send the harmonies to the mains. But I understand why they didn't do it that way. This thing is designed to be simple enough for the solo singer/guitar player to use, without the benefit of a sound guy or even a separate mixing board. If you are playing solo, this thing actually has all the mixer you need built in (eg, "vocal", "harmony" and "guitar" levels). The VL4, a mic, a guitar and a simple amp and you have a complete coffee shop setup.

[orbm1]

I mainly participate at the Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum. I posted this this morning:

Here you go...bunch of stream of consciousness thoughts in no particular order:

We had our first rehearsal with the VL4 on Saturday. Bottom line impression: Keeper.

The thing has 50 different presets. If you find the right one, the results can be amazing! But it also has a bunch of settings that result in laughably unnatural sounds. It really is an instrument in its own right. You have to use it properly to get the right sound.

The drummer in our band thought it kicked ass. The lead guitar player thought it sucked. Then again, he is something of a gear snob (no, he is the ultimate gear snob and won't accept that a DigiTech unit could ever be the equal of the Helicon unit he prefers).

Our sound guy put it like this: The harmonies sound 10% synthetic. I think that's about right. The utility of this box depends a lot on what your options are. If you have three or four guys who can all sing and nail their harmony parts, then you don't need it. But if you don't have a cadre of pro singers, this thing works. And the sound quality is certainly "good enough" for live work. Its not going to cut it in the studio, of course. But in the studio you can just overdub your harmonies and not bother with it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that this box does a lot for you even without the harmony stuff. It has all the standard vocal processing stuff (compression, reverb) as well as some "persona" effects you can apply (such as thickening your voice) that really work. Like most things with the VL4, some of these really work, some sound cartoonish.

I played around a little with the pitch correction...Not sure I like it. If you use it, there is going to be a lot of configuration needed to make it sound right. There are three parameters you can set: The "Window" defines how 'off' you have to be before the PC kicks in, the "Rate" defines how quickly the PC responds and the "Amount" defines how far the correction goes (eg, if you set the "amount" to 50%, and sing a note that is 20 cents flat it will adjust it to 10 cents flat).

On the presets with PC turned on, digitech has those three set at 99, 30 and 99, respectively. My experience is that that is WAY too aggressive...you can easily hear your voice bounce between two notes a half step apart as the PC tries to hone in on it. I had better luck setting the "window" to a much lower value. Something more like 40 or 50. I left the "rate" at 30, and set the "amount" to about 65. That seemed to be more natural. If you can actually hear the PC working, you won't like it. It has to be subtle enough to be unobtrusive. Even after all that screwing around, I'm not sure I like it. If you can't sing on-pitch, then you can't sing. This might save you from the occasional clunker, but it won't make a singer out of you if you can't do it in the first place.

One thing I didn't try but will is setting the "scale" parameter for the PC. All the presets are based on the chromatic scale, so it will adjust to the nearest half step. But you can, for example, specify "A major" of "D harmonic minor" or any other scale. That limits the number of target notes for the PC, and may yield a more natural result. One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system. It seems like a simple thing to configure the PC to where it will always target one of the notes in the chord you are currently playing. Wonder with DigiTech didn't do that...

Some of the presets are REALLY fun: dial in #16 ("Big Guy") and the next thing you know you are BB King. That one sounds stunningly natural, and it is a hoot to sing through.

Speaking of singing through, one of the more challenging things about this box is learning to ignore the harmonies and only listening to your own voice. At first, I would have trouble because I would try to chase one of the harmony voices. The result was not good.

I would prefer it it had an output for unprocessed vocals, so you could run that into your monitor mix and only send the harmonies to the mains. But I understand why they didn't do it that way. This thing is designed to be simple enough for the solo singer/guitar player to use, without the benefit of a sound guy or even a separate mixing board. If you are playing solo, this thing actually has all the mixer you need built in (eg, "vocal", "harmony" and "guitar" levels). The VL4, a mic, a guitar and a simple amp and you have a complete coffee shop setup.


This is what i wanted to hear.

Thanks for the inside info, and I am still looking forward to get mine (is backorder)

Any demos that you can upload?

Thanks! :wave:

Omar :thu:

[whinersmusic]

Some great info here!

Just wanted to add I've tried to use a standard 9 volt wall wort (e.g. BOSS adapter) with the unit using the "One Spot DigiTech adapter" pug to allow you to connect into DigiTech units. The unit does power up but, get this, no vocals come out from the unit. It seems odd to me but that's what happens.

The DigiTech wall wort is rated 18 Watts and I guess it needs it since the other adapters I've tried are closer to 8 watts. My hope was that I could connect the VL 2 into my daisy chain with my other effects and not have two actual wall worts. I did not try this on the VL 4 but the VL 4 uses the same adapter as the VL 2.

So, in case anyone is thinking of trying the same thing, it doesn't seem to work.

I also want to note that the harmony tweaks you can make on the VL 4 do help the sounds (as opposed to the VL 2). Much better with the extra two voice options. Not to say the VL 2 is bad - just that you get an expanded range and it pays off well to my ears.

The "Big voice option" and those effects that alter your own voice bother me a little bit since it is pretty obvious in a set of songs that it isn't "you". I would prefer to be able to get that effect on a harmony (the Arnold sound that is on the TC Helicon). I tried on the weekend to do that with just harmony and couldn't get it to come out. The blend then between your own voice and the deep Barry White, if you like, would work better to me than an altered main vocal. If anyone can get me there on the harmony adjusts I'd like to know. The octave down doesn't seem to be available on all four selections and I think it would need it to cut through.

Finally, I suspect that DigiTech will have to offer a midi on a unit sooner or later. The Helicon moving to an add-on harmony tracker with its unit, means that competition is out there. I would think DigiTech may want to up the anti a bit if Helicon is now going to compete with guitar chord harmony. If the VL units take off and work for them, then it would be in their interest to go further. We'll have to stay tuned.

[gc24]

I agree with Omaha on the sounds of the PC, doesn't really do much for me. I really don't care to tweak this and that and spend alot of time messing with the thing. I bought it for the ease of use and that's what it was advertised for. I just find that there are some songs that sound great with the presets and then again, some don't, so I just move on and find another one that does. Most if not all of the duets from the 60's and 70's sound fine if you search for the right preset. I use it for coffee house gigs alone with a mic guitar and amp and that's good enough to make people think the sound is full.
I don't feel the need to go searching through all the edit parameters, takes too much effort and doesn't make that much difference. Just my .2 cents. I can get a Barry White voice out of it for Can't Get enough of your Love baby BTW.

[pacAir]

LATEST BACKORDER NOTICE ON THE VL4!

Here we go again. I just got another backorder notice from MF saying my VL4shippment is being pushed ahead by 30 days! They're not even giving me an actual date anymore.

The last promised time was October 26th. They said my order would be filled with their last invoice. Anybody else get this notice from MF or know what's going on? I did get the $399.00 price and they also sent a $20.00 discount coupon which I applied to this order so I'm not angry but a bit frustrated.

Thanks,

SoloArtist


I ordered my VL4 on Friday 9/21 (also at $399.. price good until 9/30/07 if ordered from the August catalog listing) from Musician's Friend and was quoted an October 5th date on the phone. The e-mail Backorder notice I received that same evening confirms the October 05 due date verbally quoted me on the phone.

MF has a checkered history with me... I order a lot of stuff there but a high percentage never goes through, is cancelled or the B/O situation goes on for so long that I cancel in frustration. Once, I had a $450 guitar amp on B/O from them for almost 2 months during a time that the manufacturer said they had units on the shelf ready to ship. I cancelled the order and THEN they shipped it anyway! I should have made them eat it but I wanted the amp.

Since I am a "predatory" buyer, I put up with a lot of crap most people wouldn't in order to ensure I get a good deal on something I may not absolutely need but definitely want to experiment with. The VL4 falls into this territory for me as I already own a VL2 so I am in no hurry.

My VL2 was a "predatory pricing" deal as well... when the VL2 was first announced I found that B&H Photo was accepting pre-orders at $249.00. I ordered it and waited 3 months to get it. A few days after I ordered it the price went up to the $299 everyone else was asking for it. Apparently B&H mistakenly priced the unit $50 below MAP and had to re-price it. To their credit, they sold it to me at the ordered price without any whining or weaseling.

Does the VL4 have separate "Weasel" and "Whine" harmony controls? :lol:
If so, MF better watch out... :mad: They weasel and I'll whine in 4-part Harmony!

[GlennGalen]

Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds.

This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Glenn.

Keep it up!

[jerrye]

One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system.

Freakin' bummer. I just lost my interest in the 4. I was hoping and expecting this P correct - MusiQ integration. I use a TC Helicon for pitch correction, and after experimenting with the parameters, I make the best of my shredder guitar player's voice. The problem is that using chromatic is often not good enough, and I use a FCB 1010 midi pedal to change keys, live, between songs and even mid song.

BTW, using P correction in the woodshed gives me quicker feedback than does a recording, as far as whether I'm on pitch. I then try to adjust my vocal instrument according to things learned from voice lessons.

Thanks to all who've written about this gear.

[orbm1]

Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds.

This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3


Thanks!

one question: how many harmonies does this preset use?

Thanks, just wondering :wave:

Omar :thu:

[gc24]

Glenngalen:
What preset(s) did you use for the song that you posted?

[GlennGalen]

Glenngalen:
What preset(s) did you use for the song that you posted?

gc24,

It really was Preset 18 Eaglets 2. ;)


__________________________________________________ _____
Originally Posted by GlennGalen:
"Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds."

"This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:"
__________________________________________________ ______

[GlennGalen]

Thanks!

one question: how many harmonies does this preset use?

Thanks, just wondering :wave:

Omar :thu:

Omar,

It's just a single "3rd above" harmony voice.

[gc24]

My bad, I should have seen that you posted what preset it was. Thanks, nice sound and music.

[whinersmusic]

I meant to note previously that the programed version that comes up as the VL 4 starts up is saying "1.4". I'm curious if, like the TC Helicon, there will be new versions of the program? My point being that without midi in on the VL 4, there would seemingly be no way to update the version on the VL 4!

Perhaps there is a way to program it into the unit but I can't see how. The issue here will be improving any bugs or advances to the unit without having to buy a new unit. DigiTech will want to answer this one I guess but I'm wondering if any one has thoughts on that and if everyone is seeing this "1.4" on start up.

[MoT-2]

What about for solo gigs with just me and an acoustic guitar? Is the 'digital' sound of the unit likely to be more obvious? I generally don't use a drum machine or backing tracks, just me and my acoustic.

[gc24]

Yea, I see it. Your always going to have improvements on anything electronic, it just the nature of technology. Frankly, I'm glad that we have this.

Mot 2: Yea, your going to notice it alot. That's what I do and it sounds great as long as you don't overdue it with the harmonies.

[GlennGalen]

My bad, I should have seen that you posted what preset it was. Thanks, nice sound and music.

gc24...

Hehe. That's OK.:) Thanks for the compliment.

As far as the track, it really highlights what the VoiceLive is all about. Because I just fired up Band in a Box, muted everything except the drums and bass, plugged in my Strat, selected Eaglets 2...hit "Play" and and took off.

After several takes to get the balance right between lead vocal, harmonies, and guitar and Band in a Box...it was "good enough".

If you listen to that harmony track, I think it sounds extremely realistic at the level it was mixed.

I really like the harmony it generates on the words "they put it off for quite SOME time..." the harmony against the underlying guitar chords, is great. Just right.

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3

I was listening to a James Taylor track on my MP3 player the other day. I have great headphones and can really hear things "as they are". I noticed that even his harmony singers are so "blended back" that I'd never really be able to notice if they are fake or real. Of course, they are real, though.

Had I tried to do my example track by overdubbing the harmony track, it would have taken me MUCH longer to figure out exactly the right harmony line and get that recorded.

There are 2 or 3 "flat" notes on that take. No pitch correction.

It is interesting how the harmonies go flat as well ! They are such loyal "followers".:)

I realize that can all be set to correction as well.

[Omaha]

I was hoping and expecting this P correct - MusiQ integration. I use a TC Helicon for pitch correction, and after experimenting with the parameters, I make the best of my shredder guitar player's voice. The problem is that using chromatic is often not good enough, and I use a FCB 1010 midi pedal to change keys, live, between songs and even mid song.

I am at a loss to understand why DigiTech didn't integrate the PC and the MusiQ. It seems like a complete no-brainer. I can only assume they have their reasons. I've sent a question to DT tech support. I'll let you know what I hear.

Anyway, all is not lost. It would be simple enough to set up a few different presets in different keys. In practical terms, I can see narrowing the VL4 down to no more than two or three harmony presets. Figure that at most we would play using four or five different keys, and that gives you at most 15 presets to fiddle with. A very manageable number.

So you would have "3U + 5U in A Minor" as a preset, etc. Simple enough to tap from one to the next.

And you still have the benefit of the MusiQ for actually generating the harmonies.

Still, it makes me wonder why they didn't do this in the first place. Also, my VL4 displays "Version 1.4" at startup as well. I wonder if the PC-MusiQ integration could be added in software...

[gc24]

GlennGalen: So which Band in a Box do you prefer. I notice that they have a 2007 one out now.

[GlennGalen]

gc24,

I have upgraded Band in a Box (BIAB) for years. I have 2007 now. It's an amazing program, once you learn how to use it properly. A tremendous time saver for "bread and butter" backing tracks. I used to get so tired of creating basic drum and bass backup tracks for my songs. Boring.

But BIAB takes care of that, and then I build from there on the "hard stuff".

Careful, though. If you rely too much on Band in the Box without adding more complex twists on your own, you end up with very bland, simplistic tracks. You have to use BIAB as one tool, but you have to add to it for the best sounding tracks.

An example of a track I am proud of that use BIAB as a "base", and where I played all the "hard stuff", is the track on my website called "Traveling By Night". I played the rhythm guitar, the lead guitar, and the synth backing pad.

It's the first track on the MP3 player on the website.

[Omaha]

Below is my question to DigiTech regarding the integration of PC and MusiQ, and their answer. I'm not sure I get what he is saying, but there it is:

************************************************

Hi,
The reason is because the Pitch Correction only affects the lead vocal,
not the harmonies. They harmonize with the corrected pitch.

William Clayton
Harman Music Group
Technical Support Group

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Miller [mailto:jeff@thejeffmiller.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:23 PM
To: support@digitech.com
Subject: Question on VL4, Pitch Correction and MusiQ

I am curious about something...

It seems like it would have been a simple matter to integrate the Pitch
Correction and the MusiQ functions (so the PC was always based on the
current chord) on the Vocalist Live 4. What is the reason that wasn't done?

Jeff Miller

[GlennGalen]

I am curious about something...

It seems like it would have been a simple matter to integrate the Pitch
Correction and the MusiQ functions (so the PC was always based on the
current chord) on the Vocalist Live 4. What is the reason that wasn't done?

Jeff Miller


Jeff,

I think it's because the pitch correction could not determine the proper pich from a multi-note the chord; it requires a scale.

Example: You are supposed to sing E, but you sing G instead. You are playing a C chord...C-E-G. How does that help on pitch correction?

[Omaha]

I think if you are that far off (singing a "G" instead of an "E") no pitch correction is ever going to help you.

But the VL4 should be able to ascertain that you are playing a C major chord, and therefore direct the PC circuit to target the notes in a C major scale.

[GlennGalen]

I think if you are that far off (singing a "G" instead of an "E") no pitch correction is ever going to help you.



Omaha,

I thought of that! :)

As far as MusicIQ, what if you are singing the blues? Or a minor key? C major might give you a real clunker note.

When I see all the scales you can set it to, I realize how much the scale can matter.

[gc24]

Thanks for the info on the BIAB GlennGalen

[Michael Angel]

Hi guys,

I've been keeping my eyes open for anything out there demoing the VL4 and I just found two clips on youtube by Tom Davis.

The first is Bye Bye Love by the Everly Brothers that uses the VL4 3rd above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8hKv-DnjO0

The second and I think more interesting is Aimee Amy by Pure Prairie League with the VL4 set on the CSN patch on the chorus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_YhUGxNaqc&mode=user&search=

[gc24]

Try Marc Anthony's I Need To Know with preset #12. Pretty cool. Nice video's by him. I use #19 for the Amy song.

[Keithos28]

LATEST BACKORDER NOTICE ON THE VL4!

Here we go again. I just got another backorder notice from MF saying my VL4shippment is being pushed ahead by 30 days! They're not even giving me an actual date anymore.

The last promised time was October 26th. They said my order would be filled with their last invoice. Anybody else get this notice from MF or know what's going on? I did get the $399.00 price and they also sent a $20.00 discount coupon which I applied to this order so I'm not angry but a bit frustrated.

Thanks,

SoloArtist
Congrats on the $20 discount. I got mine [VL4] two weeks ago; after waiting since June. Had to use 'strong arm' tatics; i.e. 'Can I talk to your supervisor' etc..'This is impacting my Job, soon I'll have to sue' ...only joking did'nt go exactly that far !
This was to Musicians Friend; finally [they said] I seemed to somehow have jumped to the top of pile, or thereabouts. Be Firm and agressive; make threats 'from now on I'll buy everything from George's Music'........good luck....

[Anderton]

Okay, I have a TON of clips for you...I recorded a short vocal phrase in Sonar, sent the output through the VL4, recorded it in an empty track, then converted to MP3. I will say that despite the studio context, and wearing headphones, any hiss was negligible...so AFAIC, that's not a big issue at all.

Now to the clips! The two-digit number in the front is the preset number being used.

The first one is just the dry voice - Shure SM58 through no processing at all.2nd is a 3rd above.
3rd is a 3rd above with no straight vocal, just harmony.
4th is a 3rd below.
5th is a 3rd below with no straight vocal, just harmony.

[Anderton]

1st: 3rd below with pitch correction.
2nd: 3rd below and 3rd above harmonies.
3rd: They call is "CSN," and it is kinda Crosby, Stills, and Nash harmonies.
4th: This has no straight vocal at all...a good way to judge really weird harmony sounds.
5th: Another full harmony effect.

[Anderton]

The next five have titles that are pretty self-explanatory. They all combine the straight voice with harmonies. "17 Four Unisons" doesn't do harmonies, just unison effects.

[Anderton]

These are fairly straight harmony effects. I like 31 Gold Chan quite a bit.

[gc24]

What does one use to open these to play them?

[Anderton]

The last five clips are more effect sounds except for "Bigger," which really jusdt makes your voice...uh...bigger. Note that "39 Giant (no straight)" is just the processed sound; I think I could get movie voiceover gigs with this one for Shrek 4 :) And of course, we'll close with the infamous Chipmunk preset.

[Anderton]

All right...that was enough work for one day! Enjoy the clips, I'm signing off here for today. Let me know if you have any questions about the clips. Oh, BTW, the effects were on for the various presets as well, hence the reverb.

[Anderton]

What does one use to open these to play them?

* With Safari on the Mac, click on it and the file will open in iTunes.
* With AOL Mac, download the file and change "attachment.php" to "filename.mp3." Then open it in iTunes.
* With Explorer or AOL on Windows, click on it and you'll be given the option to Open or Save. If you click on Open, the file with open with Windows Media Player. Click on Save, and a window will open so you can navigate to where you want to save it.

If you still have problems, check out the sticky in this forum called "Converting Attachment PHPs to MP3s the EZ Way."

[gc24]

Thanks, I got it. Just needed to drag them out to the desktop first. Haven't used #31 before, but it sounds pretty cool. I tried Kenny Chesney's Who'd you Be Today with # 1 and it's pretty cool.

[orbm1]

All right...that was enough work for one day! Enjoy the clips, I'm signing off here for today. Let me know if you have any questions about the clips. Oh, BTW, the effects were on for the various presets as well, hence the reverb.

I am more excited than ever about my vl4... hopefully i will get it next week!

now, can you do unisons but change the gender? how about unisons with different characteristics that will make it sound like 5 different people singing the same song at the same key, no harmonies, choir like?

anyways, just a question...

Thanks again! :wave:

Omar :thu:

[Michael Angel]

Anderton,

You da man!

[neuro-feed]

Thanks for posting these Mr. Anderton. Did you trigger the harmonies from your guitar chords or did you program the VL4 keys instead?

I have to confess that I'd prefer to hear these in some sort of context with a guide guitar or something in the background, as the vocals/harmonies seem to waiver between pitch and on some settings it's difficult to hear the overall melody, making me wonder if it's the unit that's slightly off in it's harmonizing or the performance of the straight vocal (no offense). ;)

[Omaha]

Good clips. They give a nice indication of what the VL4 does.

Neuro-feed's comment brings something to mind. In my (limited) experience with the VL4, you will want to sing "straighter" than normal. Just hit your notes and don't do a lot of swoops and dips to try to make it interesting. If you do, the VL4 tends to exaggerate them in a way that can sound artificial. If you are singing with the VL4, the key is to remember that you have to do a lot less to make it interesting than before.

[Anderton]

Thanks for posting these Mr. Anderton. Did you trigger the harmonies from your guitar chords or did you program the VL4 keys instead?

I just set the scale to E major, although when singing this song live, I use the MusIQ.

I have to confess that I'd prefer to hear these in some sort of context with a guide guitar or something in the background, as the vocals/harmonies seem to waiver between pitch and on some settings it's difficult to hear the overall melody, making me wonder if it's the unit that's slightly off in it's harmonizing or the performance of the straight vocal (no offense). ;)

It's the performance of the straight vocal! I was going to re-do it and then I thought, no, we need some material for the Pitch Correction to chomp and also, as "real world" an example as possible. So I made a deal with myself to just do one take, and resist the temptation to fix anything.

As to context. I thought about that BUT as there were questions about hiss and what the harmonies sounded like by themselves, I thought that "brutal honesty" was the best approach.

If you want to hear the "real" song, surf on over to http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/line-6-toneport/jun-07/29108 and click on the Audio File in the box toward the right side of the page. For info on how it was recorded, scroll to the bottom of the page.

[Anderton]

Good clips. They give a nice indication of what the VL4 does.

Neuro-feed's comment brings something to mind. In my (limited) experience with the VL4, you will want to sing "straighter" than normal. Just hit your notes and don't do a lot of swoops and dips to try to make it interesting. If you do, the VL4 tends to exaggerate them in a way that can sound artificial. If you are singing with the VL4, the key is to remember that you have to do a lot less to make it interesting than before.

Very good point. I'd add that in live performance, the occasional swoop or dip won't last long enough to make much difference, but if it's a studio situation, it pays to be a little more careful. Then again, in the studio, I usually just overdub any harmonies...

[whinersmusic]

I just set the scale to E major, although when singing this song live, I use the MusIQ.



It's the performance of the straight vocal! I was going to re-do it and then I thought, no, we need some material for the Pitch Correction to chomp and also, as "real world" an example as possible. So I made a deal with myself to just do one take, and resist the temptation to fix anything.

As to context. I thought about that BUT as there were questions about hiss and what the harmonies sounded like by themselves, I thought that "brutal honesty" was the best approach.

If you want to hear the "real" song, surf on over to http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/line-6-toneport/jun-07/29108 and click on the Audio File in the box toward the right side of the page. For info on how it was recorded, scroll to the bottom of the page.

Thanks for this. So you think hiss is ok for recording? Though your clips sound fine I'm not sure I can agree that it passes the test as a unit you could rely on for recording. There are a lot of studio fobes who will be disappointed I think with it. However, budget is always going to be a consideration and demos can only be as good as you can afford to present. So you can get pretty good harmony for under $500 and there you go.

Just wonder how you would rate this in comparison to the TC Helicon? Are you saying no appreciable difference in sound quality (not so much the harmony quality but sound/output record quality)?

I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along. But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines.

I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony. The promo literature that talks about the harmony following the guitar and not your voice isn't quite true! Be more direct to say the DigiTech units allow your vocal and guitar to generate harmony. A subtle difference.

In the end, two live people can beat the process of the machine but I expect that in the future, the intelligence of the machine will allow you to program for such variables as an extended oooh or augh in your vocal line.

Providing any patch settings etc you might create (this from anyone) would also be helpful in quickly arriving at other harmony styles. I'm not sure if you can post a chart using this web interface (perhaps a link to one if you create one) with the particular settings for each of the four to five control sets. That would be real helpful at dialing everything in.

I'm going to try and work one up so I can know what I've done and have a reference. By the way, this could be another thing you could do with midi (if there was one) you could save your patches independently of the unit.

I really think DigiTech is going to have to add midi to have the unit really take a hold of the market.

Cheers,

[Anderton]

Thanks for this. So you think hiss is ok for recording?

And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that?

With the VL4, I have no audible hiss but your continued talking about this made me think that even though others don't hear it, there must be some kind of problem...maybe I just wasn't hearing it. So, I figured it was testing time.

The attached screen shot shows a recording of the VL4 into Wavelab through the Line 6 KB37 interface, which presumably contributes some hiss of its own. For worst-case conditions, I turned on both the effects section and harmony section of the VL4, set the harmony and straight levels to maximum, disabled the noise gate, and chose preset #51 (3rd above).

I then highlighted the area where there were no vocals and only residual hiss, and called up the normalize function, as it has a peak-reading option. As you can see, the hiss is down -78.268dB. And remember, that's the hiss of the entire recording chain, not just the VL4.

Now maybe that's a big deal to you, but it's a highly respectable noise spec. Furthermore, it's so low that it could be easily gated without causing any audible side effects, or processed with noise reduction software to get it down to -90dB - which is about the same amount of attenuation as turning a physical potentiometer all the way to off. As far as I'm concerned, it's case closed on the question of hiss.

Though your clips sound fine I'm not sure I can agree that it passes the test as a unit you could rely on for recording.

Well if it sounds fine, and the noise is down more than -78dB, I consider it a unit I could rely on for recording. And I think most other people would, too. The fact that you're the only person who keeps bringing up hiss makes me think there is either something wrong with your unit or, more likely, something about your recording signal chain. Why don't you measure the output of your VL4 (with the input left open to take any noise generated by the mic out of the picture) and report back to us?

Just wonder how you would rate this in comparison to the TC Helicon? Are you saying no appreciable difference in sound quality (not so much the harmony quality but sound/output record quality)?

I didn't say anything because I don't have a current TC Helicon I can put up against it for comparison. However, I would say that if the Helicon does -78dB or better with the effects and harmonies full up, I'd be pleased with that as well.

I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along.

Actually, I said "Very good point. I'd add that in live performance, the occasional swoop or dip won't last long enough to make much difference, but if it's a studio situation, it pays to be a little more careful."

But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines.

Well I don't find it all that surprising that if you don't give a pitch processing unit a sound with a relatively strong sense of pitch, there's the possibility to confuse the unit.

I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony. The promo literature that talks about the harmony following the guitar and not your voice isn't quite true! Be more direct to say the DigiTech units allow your vocal and guitar to generate harmony. A subtle difference.

The literature is correct, the VL4 follows the guitar. However, it has memory that takes the voice data into account so that if the guitar data goes away, it can make educated guesses based on the past history of the interaction between guitar and voice. I find that the chord tracking is excellent, actually. What I find even more amazing is that you can play some seriously interesting chords, like suspended with added 9th, and the VL4 doesn't freak out.

I really think DigiTech is going to have to add midi to have the unit really take a hold of the market.

Given the fact that they can't make these things fast enough, I don't think most people perceive the lack of MIDI as problematic! They understand that it's called Vocalist LIVE and is designed to offer the most painless onstage experience possible. There are plenty of harmony devices with MIDI built in, why reinvent the wheel? However, there aren't any harmony devices with the same kind of chord tracking. I've never used MIDI-only harmony devices live. I use the VL4. That's the difference.

I hope you find whatever is causing the hiss you're perceiving, because I just don't think that -78dB under worst-case conditions would be sufficient to elicit your reaction.

[neuro-feed]

"I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along. But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines."

I found this to be true with the VL2 as well, though it was difficult to determine if it was the vocal performance or the guitar chord voicing that was causing the problem. For example, when singing The Beatles, "Hard Day's Night" in the key of G maj, the lead vocal note stays on D while the chord changes to C maj. I perform it the same way that Lennon does - a slight slide up to the note, but when switching the chord to C maj under the D lead vocal, the 3rd above harmony would sometimes play back the 7th (F) when it should be playing G over both chords. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, but I found that it improved if I hit the first notes dead on instead of the slide up. Unfortunately, that's not how the song is performed.

"I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony."

I was actually very impressed with Craig's mp3 of the 3rd above without any straight vocal. It sounded very real and natural to me, as if he had sung it. When it seems to start sounding fake to my ears, however, is when additional vocals are added.

[Anderton]

Regarding Whinersmusic...after reviewing his posts, he said in order to avoid distortion he’s setting his vocals so that he just tickles the green LED, because otherwise he gets clipping when the harmonies come in. Given that he’s operating way down from the pre-amp rails, that would definitely lead to hiss. The optimal setting is to tickle the red with the vocal.

So really, the question is not why he's getting hiss -- I think we know that -- but why he's getting distortion. When I've plugged headphones directly into the VL4 out, I don't hear distortion when the harmonies kick in and the levels are set correctly. So at this point, I would have to assume that the downstream setup can't handle the VL-4's output (which as several have commented, is pretty hot as it designed to drive line-level/pro gear).

Perhaps the solution is to turn down the vocal and harmony level controls at the VL-4 way down to avoid overloading subsequent stages, so it would still be possible to gain-stage those subsequent stages properly?

[whinersmusic]

And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that? ...


Thanks .. I also indicated it could be me :) and maybe it is! Obviously no one else is uptight about it so let the trend support a thumbs up for this aspect. Glad you went the extra mile and I can't argue with data.

I go back to the statements about reviews and how to take out what you can from them. I don't mind being perceived as somewhat of a devil's advocate or off the mark (not to say I don't believe what I've already said). I don't think the unit is a waste of cash at all but, at the same time, it has a few disappointments.

Nuff said.

[whinersmusic]

Regarding Whinersmusic...after reviewing his posts, he said in order to avoid distortion he’s setting his vocals so that he just tickles the green LED, because otherwise he gets clipping when the harmonies come in.

Just want to add I've varied the levels from hot to not so hot and the best rendering comes from tickling the green - true on both the VL 4 and 2. I would love to go hotter but can't, it seems, for peeks distortion when the harmony kicks in. So, yes, that would account for some of the hiss. I think my post on what I shoot for on levels is self explanatory and probably couldn't be argued with. Just the subjective nature of my ear is where you would seemingly catch me and perhaps what I'm freaking out about as "distortion" is just mixer overload though I can't believe I'm that stupid. I do find I have to get the green strong for the guitar and that is not distorting at all so go figure?

[Anderton]

Thanks .. I also indicated it could be me :) and maybe it is!

I don't think it's you, I think it's a misadjustment somewhere in your system. Try boosting the input and turning the vocal and harmony controls way down, and report back if that helps reduce the hiss issue. Good luck!

Craig

[Michael Angel]

Anderton,

Thanks for going the extra mile.

[whinersmusic]

And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that?


I just realized that on my post it had "so you think hiss is ok for recording". Yikes! I had thought I wrote "so you think the hiss is ok for recording?" Meaning the hiss from the unit isn't enough of an issue to prevent good results. Really wasn't my intention to imply that anyone would think hiss is good for recording. So, Anderton, you never did say anything to cause me to infer that and sorry for the typo.

I'll also try going line out as opposed to XLR out from the units given that anything from balanced to unbalanced cables to line level variances from the XLR vs. the line outs could be an issue. I have a 16 board firewire ALESIS unit that was $680 and some change that is quiet and distortion free on mic direct in so I don't think it's my gear per se.

[Omaha]

Thanks for this. So you think hiss is ok for recording? Though your clips sound fine I'm not sure I can agree that it passes the test as a unit you could rely on for recording.

Recording is a non-issue for me, but I do think there is a reason this is called the Vocalist Live...it was made for live work.

Generated harmonies in a studio environment make little sense to me.

I really think DigiTech is going to have to add midi to have the unit really take a hold of the market.

Here's the thing: The whole concept behind this box is simplicity. Everyone, my self included, can look at this and say "it would be better for me if it had this feature or that". In my case, I wish it had a straight (unprocessed) "vocal out" jack so I could run clean vocals to a monitor.

But if you take my feature, and your's and Dick's and Harry's and Jane's and John's, add them all to the box, it stops being simple. And at that point, you may as well buy something else.

Another guy in my band has the TC Helicon. Side by side, my take is that the Helicon might have slightly better tone, but at an enormous cost in terms of usability. The VL4 you can plug in, and immediately start getting workable harmonies right out of the box. Try that with a Helicon. NFW.

It is interesting to note that if you search for "Digitech" at www.musiciansfriend.com and sort the resulting products by popularity, the VL4 is on top.

[fuzzball]

Obviously the item is selling well since you have to wait forever to get one.

This thread and the V2 unit thread have both been very helpful and informative. Before this I was sure to get a TC Helicon....now my head is spining.

[Anderton]

About that "Hard Day's Night" example...try playing a Csus2 (or maybe a Cadd9) instead of a Cmaj, and you should get the G no matter how you sing. Basically, if the note you're singing is in the chord and the harmony note you want is in the chord, you're pretty sure to get that harmony note. In this kind of situation, you can think of your guitar as the "user interface" for making sure you get the notes you want.

[Anderton]

I just realized that on my post it had "so you think hiss is ok for recording". Yikes! I had thought I wrote "so you think the hiss is ok for recording?" Meaning the hiss from the unit isn't enough of an issue to prevent good results. Really wasn't my intention to imply that anyone would think hiss is good for recording. So, Anderton, you never did say anything to cause me to infer that and sorry for the typo.

Well, it's funny how one word can make such a HUGE difference! Okay, now what you said makes a whole lot more sense!!

Do keep us posted on your progress with chasing down whatever the problem might be. If you've experienced a problem, it's almost certain someone else will experience the same problem and you might be able to save them a lot of hassle. I will say the VL4 gets a "clean bill of health" here regarding noise and distortion, so unless your unit has a defect, you should be able to enjoy the same level of performance.

[~Musicman~]

Freakin' bummer. I just lost my interest in the 4. I was hoping and expecting this P correct - MusiQ integration. I use a TC Helicon for pitch correction, and after experimenting with the parameters, I make the best of my shredder guitar player's voice. The problem is that using chromatic is often not good enough, and I use a FCB 1010 midi pedal to change keys, live, between songs and even mid song.

BTW, using P correction in the woodshed gives me quicker feedback than does a recording, as far as whether I'm on pitch. I then try to adjust my vocal instrument according to things learned from voice lessons.

Thanks to all who've written about this gear.

That's a shame Jerrye. I ordered my VL4 today (I can always return it) and I am hoping it can do half the things I can do using my FCB1010 and the digitech Studio vocalist.

The pitch correction feature should help avoid the 'swooping' effect. In the Studio Vocalist, there is a selection of 'smooth' which gives the 'swoopy' sound or 'step' which gives the clean neat harmonies.

What amazes me is that my model has been taken 'off the market' for some time now and Digitech is re-inventing the wheel. If the VL4 only had midi, it would be the ultimate machine, IMO.
:thu:

[~Musicman~]

Hey guys...
can anybody upload a video or audio file to see/listen the vl4 in action??

Mine is backordered and I would like at least to see it in action.

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:


Try this link http://www.youtube.com/user/TommieD1

He is in another forum (Bose ) and the Vl2 and 4 are topics.

[m1westwood]

All,

I have been following the wishes for Midi on the VL4 - well I have some interesting news for you. My wife threw away my Musician's Friend Catalog, much to my chagrin, when I heard they were still honoring the original price. So I ordered another - hoping it would be the old one. Unfortunately, they sent me the September rendition with the full 499 price tag.

The funny thing is, when the Musician's Friend September issue arrived, they made a mistake and claimed that the VL4 also has Midi inputs for Keyboard Players :-) Maybe they are throwing it in as a bonus.

Anderton, thanks for all the clips. If you get a chance to do a few more with Pitch Correction, and hearing the guitar I would appreciate it. The a capella certainly did give us an great feel for what the unit puts out - but I am also interested in the chords being played to get the sound, and the timing of the chord changes - my fear is I may have to attack chord changes earlier than I might be used to.

[whinersmusic]

... Here's the thing: The whole concept behind this box is simplicity. Everyone, my self included, can look at this and say "it would be better for me if it had this feature or that". In my case, I wish it had a straight (unprocessed) "vocal out" jack so I could run clean vocals to a monitor.

But if you take my feature, and your's and Dick's and Harry's and Jane's and John's, add them all to the box, it stops being simple. And at that point, you may as well buy something else.

Of course you are absolutely right but DigiTech is on the cusp of a total package that could virtually satisfy all with just a few more tweaks. The VL 2 is the simple beast without question. As soon as DigiTech got into pitch and patches etc etc on the VL 4, they opened the door on refining the unit to meet more needs. If they are smart, they will think about advancing the concept and it wouldn't have to take away from the KISS principle. From the trail here, there is a clear wish (and disappointment at the lack thereof) for midi and also straight vocal out. That's not a huge wish list. The challenge is to add it without adding "fat" to the unit. Of course, we'll have to pay more for it but that's a fair trade. So, I'd say wish away ... and let them know via these kinds of forums what we're looking for. How else will they hear from the users? (I guess there are other ways too but this is a good one at any rate.) I imagine they are a bit ahead of us in developing further.

It is interesting to note that if you search for "Digitech" at www.musiciansfriend.com (http://www.musiciansfriend.com) and sort the resulting products by popularity, the VL4 is on top.

This is great and suggests they have a live one on their hands. Nice addition to the info here. No doubt it must be satisfying to the developers at DigiTech even if we are jawing a bit about this and that ... never hurts to know you did something that catches on.

[Arizona Ken]

Thanks Anderton. I was Googling around earlier this week and ran across the Pro Review Site and the discussions on the VL2 and VL4. I have spent the last few days going through the posts. This forum has done a great job in reviewing this unit.

I'm just a hobbiest, but have sung for a long time, and have played guitar for a number of years. The VL4 looks like a great unit to have fun with.

I just got "in line" at MF to get one of the units when they get in.

How fast can you toggle the voices on and off? What could be fun is to do a "call and response" song with the "chorus" (like in the gospel setting) responding to a lead voice. Do the pedals seem sturdy enough to take that kind of repeated use?

[whinersmusic]

How fast can you toggle the voices on and off? What could be fun is to do a "call and response" song with the "chorus" (like in the gospel setting) responding to a lead voice. Do the pedals seem sturdy enough to take that kind of repeated use?

You can do this really fast - it works great! I do this all the time and no issues except for your timing on the foot on and off so to speak - it's all on you to get it right but the unit works fine.

[~Musicman~]

Thanks Anderton. I was Googling around earlier this week and ran across the Pro Review Site and the discussions on the VL2 and VL4. I have spent the last few days going through the posts. This forum has done a great job in reviewing this unit.

I'm just a hobbiest, but have sung for a long time, and have played guitar for a number of years. The VL4 looks like a great unit to have fun with.

I just got "in line" at MF to get one of the units when they get in.

How fast can you toggle the voices on and off? What could be fun is to do a "call and response" song with the "chorus" (like in the gospel setting) responding to a lead voice. Do the pedals seem sturdy enough to take that kind of repeated use?

I think the harmony pedal can be set so the harmony stays on as long as you hold the pedal down. This way you are saving and extra 'step.' (no pun intended :lol: )

[terrasini74]

i don't know whether or not this has been brought up, but when you choose to harmonize a 3rd above, it sometimes goes up a 4th when using musicIQ. For example, when i sing an F# with a Bmi chord, the unit chooses a B instead of an A. Even when i play a Bmi7, the unit still chooses a B. It's not the end of the world, but an actual 3rd above an F# is very pleasing to the ear even when sung over a Bmi chord. And some songs require it. To overcome this problem, i turn off the MusicIQ and choose a DMa scale for the hamornies. When this is done, it will always choose an actual 3rd above. Unfortunately, if the song requires a key change, then this option isn't practical since you'll have to push the key change button with your finger during the song, unless you play barefoot and can click the key change button with a toe. Does anyone know how we can always get an actual 3rd above when using MusicIQ?

[whinersmusic]

I think the harmony pedal can be set so the harmony stays on as long as you hold the pedal down. This way you are saving and extra 'step.' (no pun intended :lol: )

This is an option for sure and works even better for this type of thing (quick harmony on and off) The actual lock on and off isn't really that much slower though - the issue I've found with the lock on off is that you can lose track whether you are on or off. The hold down for harmony feature is a can't screw it up thing because "if your foot ain't on the pedal ... harmony ain't on".

The expression pedal option also works for this - the only thing here is that the harmony level is also set by the pedal ... so bringing the pedal all the way up brings on your harmony on as well as to the max harmony level.

So, you've got the three choices if you want 'em - have to program the expression pedal for each patch though since the programming isn't designed (in this area) to go across all the patches. The harmony hold down on the switch does go across all the patches.

[Arizona Ken]

Thank you for the prompt replies!

Arizona Ken

[~Musicman~]

i don't know whether or not this has been brought up, but when you choose to harmonize a 3rd above, it sometimes goes up a 4th when using musicIQ. For example, when i sing an F# with a Bmi chord, the unit chooses a B instead of an A. Even when i play a Bmi7, the unit still chooses a B. It's not the end of the world, but an actual 3rd above an F# is very pleasing to the ear even when sung over a Bmi chord. And some songs require it. To overcome this problem, i turn off the MusicIQ and choose a DMa scale for the hamornies. When this is done, it will always choose an actual 3rd above. Unfortunately, if the song requires a key change, then this option isn't practical since you'll have to push the key change button with your finger during the song, unless you play barefoot and can click the key change button with a toe. Does anyone know how we can always get an actual 3rd above when using MusicIQ?

Bummer!

Maybe check your pitch correction settings or the other related settings. (Mine is in transit ) It could be that your voice is is off enough to qualify as a 'G.'

In the IQ mode, try playing a chord and sing the scale (doe, ray, me...) and see how well it tracks the third above harmony.

[lhoard]

Congrats on the $20 discount. I got mine [VL4] two weeks ago; after waiting since June. Had to use 'strong arm' tatics; i.e. 'Can I talk to your supervisor' etc..'This is impacting my Job, soon I'll have to sue' ...only joking did'nt go exactly that far !
This was to Musicians Friend; finally [they said] I seemed to somehow have jumped to the top of pile, or thereabouts. Be Firm and agressive; make threats 'from now on I'll buy everything from George's Music'........good luck....
Musicians Friend put the big one to me (I posted in the VL2 section about it).

I picked my VL4 up today at my hometown music store. I'm looking forward to seeing what it's made out of. I have previously owned the TC Helicon Voice Works.

[Michael Angel]

Ihoard,

Keep us posted regarding your thoughts on the VL4.

By the way, I remember reading what MF did to you. Not cool.

[minstrel29]

Can't wait to get mine.
Just curious...anybody try this with say a flute or a trumpet instead of the vocals?

[Hubcaps]

Hi,
My VL4 was delivered this week and I reckon the MusicIQ works very well !!.

I wanted to check the harmony using the Eaglets 2 preset so I turned the guitar level down to zero and recorded the VL4 output on my fostex VF160. I found that some guitar was still audible behind the recorded vocal. I first thought that guitar signal was bleeding through from the VL4 guitar input and being subjected the the preset FX but found it was the accoustic sound from my Telecaster bleeding into the mic itself.....Panic over

The VL4 replaces my original 90s Digitech Vocalist Performer and now in-song key changes are no problem.
I have to admit that the Pitch Correct feature was a major consideration in the purchase........!!

[Anderton]

i don't know whether or not this has been brought up, but when you choose to harmonize a 3rd above, it sometimes goes up a 4th when using musicIQ. For example, when i sing an F# with a Bmi chord, the unit chooses a B instead of an A. Even when i play a Bmi7, the unit still chooses a B. It's not the end of the world, but an actual 3rd above an F# is very pleasing to the ear even when sung over a Bmi chord. And some songs require it. To overcome this problem, i turn off the MusicIQ and choose a DMa scale for the hamornies. When this is done, it will always choose an actual 3rd above. Unfortunately, if the song requires a key change, then this option isn't practical since you'll have to push the key change button with your finger during the song, unless you play barefoot and can click the key change button with a toe. Does anyone know how we can always get an actual 3rd above when using MusicIQ?

Singing an F# over a Bm chord and getting the B rather than the A is reasonably common as it's most often the "correct" harmony. However, I'm a little surprised you get the A when playing Bm7 because I seem to remember trying that and got an A. Perhaps this is a situation where the "memory" works against you instead of in your favor...but also check the levels of the guitar going into the unit, because if the signal is not strong enough, the highest notes (which in this case would define the harmony you want) are the first to get lost as they have the least amount of energy.

If that’s not the problem, then you can always use musIQ-Alt mode. This will generally give you the A even over a Bm chord. Incidentally, you don't need to push the button with your hand while you're playing; whether musIQ is on or off can all be stored in the presets (something I use to advantage quite a bit!).

[jimisbridge]

hi all,
can anybody guess if using a wireless headset into the unit might be an issue?
vl4 really cool so far, just don't want to splurge on the Shure ULXS1430 if it doesn't suit my needs (need to use the vl4!)

thanks for any insight

[terrasini74]

Singing an F# over a Bm chord and getting the B rather than the A is reasonably common as it's most often the "correct" harmony. However, I'm a little surprised you get the A when playing Bm7 because I seem to remember trying that and got an A. Perhaps this is a situation where the "memory" works against you instead of in your favor...but also check the levels of the guitar going into the unit, because if the signal is not strong enough, the highest notes (which in this case would define the harmony you want) are the first to get lost as they have the least amount of energy.

If that’s not the problem, then you can always use musIQ-Alt mode. This will generally give you the A even over a Bm chord. Incidentally, you don't need to push the button with your hand while you're playing; whether musIQ is on or off can all be stored in the presets (something I use to advantage quite a bit!).

Thanks for the advice. I tried your suggestions. I tried a different fingering for Bmi7, and the harmony voice hit the A more often. I also tried MusIQ with the ALT mode and that seemed to work pretty well too, with the A registering about 80% of the time.

[GlennGalen]

Here's an example of using the VL4 in a recording setting.

I overdubbed just the harmony, using the "Blind Boys" preset.

The song is "A Change Is Gonna Come", by the great Sam Cooke.

Here's a bit of it. I tried to mix the harmonies "back" a bit.


http://www.GlennGalen.com/examples/VL4Change.mp3

[gc24]

nice

[geckoland]

Glenn,

Very tasteful! I really like it! I have to say, I have not really used these units much to add a separate harmony track from the lead, but this demo has convinced me that I should try it. Thanks for posting it.

Geckoland

[orbm1]

Here's an example of using the VL4 in a recording setting.

I overdubbed just the harmony, using the "Blind Boys" preset.

The song is "A Change Is Gonna Come", by the great Sam Cooke.

Here's a bit of it. I tried to mix the harmonies "back" a bit.


http://www.GlennGalen.com/examples/VL4Change.mp3

Sounds Great! honestly over the speakers i would never guessed it was a harmonizer.

Thanks for sharing :wave:

Omar :thu:

[SoloArtist]

Musicians Friend put the big one to me (I posted in the VL2 section about it).

I picked my VL4 up today at my hometown music store. I'm looking forward to seeing what it's made out of. I have previously owned the TC Helicon Voice Works.


There you go!

Sounds like a plan. I also got tired of MF's promises to ship with their constant "updated" backordered notices so I cancelled my VL4 order, (gasp)!!! :eek:

Once my hometown store gets the VL4 in, I can test drive it there like I did the VL2. Simple solution with no more backorder notice games. :mad:

Actually, I am pretty content with my VL2 as I just purchased it from my local music center August. I'm thinking, what am I going to do with two of these boxes? Based on what I'm doing now, the VL2 is small to haul, very simple and fantastic to use for live performances. The VL4 sounds less spontaneous for gigging purposes but I will still be open to testing it out.

Best to all,
:thu:

SoloArtist

[Metrico]

Here's an example of using the VL4 in a recording setting.

I overdubbed just the harmony, using the "Blind Boys" preset.

Thanks GlennGalen! That is actually quite amazing!

BTW, did you sing with that wide gospel vibrato when creating the backing harmony or did the VL4 actually do that by itself? The VL2 doesn't have vibrato.

[Keithos28]

The pre-set 'GALS DUET' { makes a male lead singer sound female }; is cool to say the least. My wife burst into the music room looking for the hidden females.
Pre-set 'CSN' ; try that on 'Teach your children' by Crosby , Stills and Nash.
This is a cool thread to say the least; lots of harmony talk. Anybody else applied some of the cool pre-sets to any popular songs?

[GlennGalen]

Thanks GlennGalen! That is actually quite amazing!

BTW, did you sing with that wide gospel vibrato when creating the backing harmony or did the VL4 actually do that by itself? The VL2 doesn't have vibrato.

Thanks Metrico.

The VL4 did the vibrato on my "backing guys". It is really quite interesting how, with practice, you start to use the VL4 like an instrument when tracking the backing vocals. I kind of get into the "backup singer" frame of mind, and can see my self swaying and snapping my fingers like the Temptations :lol:

It's quite a lot of fun, and the possibilities are extensive for using the VL4 as an instrument in itself in recordings.

[gc24]

Another variation for the song that GlennGalen did would be to try #14 Big Gospel and do the song slow. I thought I changed races there for a second., no insult intended.

Keith: Yea, I've used # 1 alot for duets such as Peter and Gordon, Everley Brothers, Simon And Garfunkel, Beatles

[GlennGalen]

By the way, to hear the entire song, with better fidelity and some more interesting use of the "VL4 Backup Group", go to my website (see link below).

It's now the first song on the player.

This VL4 really is a very capable device, I must say.

[Anderton]

Well I can't participate much right now, because I'm on my way to AES and my studio won't fit in the suitcase...but I'm digging what you guys are coming up with. Keep those examples coming!!

[ph_dal]

Thanks Metrico.

The VL4 did the vibrato on my "backing guys". It is really quite interesting how, with practice, you start to use the VL4 like an instrument when tracking the backing vocals. I kind of get into the "backup singer" frame of mind, and can see my self swaying and snapping my fingers like the Temptations :lol:

It's quite a lot of fun, and the possibilities are extensive for using the VL4 as an instrument in itself in my recordings.

Hello, Glenn... for my first interaction on this forum, I'll go for a congratulation! Your song is outstanding :thu: and gives an impressive idea on the capabilities of the VL4. Mine is on order here in Belgium, but I'm now more excited than ever to get it in hands...:) Thanks a lot.

[fuzzball]

Thanks every one for the clips, this helps me see what the unit can really do. It is hard to test one of these at a store and have enough time to get a real idea of what it can do.

Can any one provide side by side comparison clips with a TC Helicon voicelive unit?

[terrasini74]

hi guys. i bought my VL4 from music123.com for $399, but they said they inadvertently advertised it for that incorrect price. now they're selling it for $499 i believe. I found it at bhphotovideo.com for $449, but not sure whether or not it's in stock.

[gc24]

Sounds like False advertising to me.

[dugz]

Has anybody seen (or created) a spreadsheet of the VL4 patch parameters for each patch. i think it would be extremely useful. I know you can manually troll through each patch to see all of the psrsmd but it is extremely time consuming.

[fuzzball]

Good idea, I would love to see that.

[jerrye]

Jeff,

I think it's because the pitch correction could not determine the proper pich from a multi-note the chord; it requires a scale.

Example: You are supposed to sing E, but you sing G instead. You are playing a C chord...C-E-G. How does that help on pitch correction?

My thinking regarding p correction is that a processor would hear that off-pitch lead vocal E, and let's' say it's half way between E and F (that's an E that's 50 cents sharp, right?) MusicIQ listens to the C-E-G from the guitar. MusicIQ would arm the p correction function with this information. This would tell the p correction function to assume that E, not F, is the correct note, based on the guitar chord. The p correction would act on the vocal, shifting it toward E, not F.

This would eliminate the need I have with my TC VoiceWorks to sometimes designate a diatonic scale and not rely on the chromatic scale, for pitch correction. In the example above, with my TC, if I was having trouble going sharp, while singing E, one solution would be to apply a custom scale. I could create and use a scale I'd call "C major no F," C D E G A B, on the vocal phrase in question.

Meanwhile, perhaps in a separate chain, the harmony function would apply the MusicIQ to that same E that's 50cents sharp, producing the desired harmony.

To answer the question directly, though, I don't know if there's a digital cure for the E sang as a G. Although my intonation is not where I want it, fortunately I'm not relying on that degree of p correction.

[~Musicman~]

Has anybody seen (or created) a spreadsheet of the VL4 patch parameters for each patch. i think it would be extremely useful. I know you can manually troll through each patch to see all of the psrsmd but it is extremely time consuming.

Many of my USB devices have programs to view that type of spreadsheet. The VL2/4 doesn't have that capability an would most likely cost more.

However, you are only going to use a fraction of what the vocalist can do so understanding it and setting it up to suit your needs would be the better option.

In most cases, the 3u harmony is all that is needed. Add a few effects and you are set. Understanding how to use it with and without the MusicIQ can be helpful too. Adding the 5u or the 3d can ruin the effect in some cases so it depends on what you really need.

I would suggest spending a few hours learning the machine basics and you can write your own spreadsheets as you go. I can guarantee that you will still discover new things or techniques as you progress.

I own a studio vocalist which can do far more that the VL4 with the exception of the MusicIQ. I recently received my VL4 and I am completely happy with it because it meets my needs.

I have tested it out with songs like 'Helplessly Hoping' and 'Blackbird' with and without the musicIQ and with various harmony settings. It all depends on your settings and you ability to 'work' the VL unit. The unit will respond differently to the same song/settings depending on how you sing and play into it. The IQ is really beneficial on key change songs and does react differently in some cases.

For the new users, I would advise keeping it simple and begin by using Pitch correction in the chromatic and major settings. Stick with the 3U setting with and without the MusicIQ. When you find something you like use the STORE button.

Mark

[orbm1]

I got my VL4 today, I got a great deal on it too at guitar center, it was totally worth the wait....!!!!!

check this out:

vl4....$345
24mo warranty $69.99
xenyx small mixer (so I can monitor my vocals only and hook the vl2 and vl4)..$41.83
24mo warranty on the mixer $9.99
2 cables 1/4 to xlr...$4.58

Total 471.7+tax
500.00 even!!!! the actual price of the vl4 at the store right now!!!!

now, I am looking forward to play with it, I will give my feedback later!

thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[gc24]

Does the Mixer record you?

[terrasini74]

I got my VL4 today, I got a great deal on it too at guitar center, it was totally worth the wait....!!!!!

check this out:

vl4....$345
24mo warranty $69.99
xenyx small mixer (so I can monitor my vocals only and hook the vl2 and vl4)..$41.83
24mo warranty on the mixer $9.99
2 cables 1/4 to xlr...$4.58

Total 471.7+tax
500.00 even!!!! the actual price of the vl4 at the store right now!!!!

now, I am looking forward to play with it, I will give my feedback later!

thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:


which guitar center? online or the actual store?

[Michael Angel]

Omar,

Congratulations! With the demand for the VL4 your deal is one for the record books.

I would love to hear about any interesting ways you may find to integrate your VL2 with the 4, as well as any other insights you might have regarding getting the most out of your set-up.

Thanks,

Michael

[orbm1]

which guitar center? online or the actual store?

Actual Store, in michigan...

There was a mixed up with my special order, I called today to talk to the guy that helps me with my stuff and he told me that there was none, and they were expecting my order to ship on 10/10/07, I placed the order on september and I got the vl4 at 389 + tax, so they can kind of match the Musician friends august catalog price (I mentioned this before i think)... any ways... i went there today because i needed a cable and for my surprise there was ONE vl4 sitting on display on accesories... i talked to the guy at proaudio (remember i talked to him today and he told 10/10/07) and he was mad and embarrased, so he decided to help me and hook me up, so i talked to him about my idea and he hooked me up with the prices and the warranties! HOORAY!!!!! I am happy!


Omar,

Congratulations! With the demand for the VL4 your deal is one for the record books.

I would love to hear about any interesting ways you may find to integrate your VL2 with the 4, as well as any other insights you might have regarding getting the most out of your set-up.

Thanks,

Michael

My idea about is as follows:

vl2 two harmonies
vl4 4 harmonies and unisons and change genders...

so....
if i hooke a mic to the small mixer, then send the signal as follows:
L out to vl2, vl2 out to channel 1 main mixer (vl2 set full harmonies)
R out to vl4, vl4 out o channel 2 main mixer (vl4 set full harmonies)
aux/phone/rca out to channel 3 main mixer (just my unmodified vocals)

then guitar into the vl2 in, out thru to the vl4, out to main mixer.

main mixer, 4 channels

1. vl2 set confortable level out, little bit of monitors, remember that you will only hear harmonies here, not actual voice
2. vl4 set confortable level out, little bit of monitors, remember that you will only hear harmonies here, not actual voice
3. my unmodified vocals, with good level out and good level monitors.
4. my guitar.

possibilities are endless, i think, imagine, you alone, set the vl2 for 3rd above and 3rd below, vl4, unison octave up gender female, unison octave up gender female, unison octave up male, unison octave down male... I have a 6 people choir, with me seven!!!!!!

take in consideration that i have not try this yet, but, while waiting for my vl4 to arrive ,I came up with this idea....

Remember, your guitar can go before the mixer to a pedalboard, your vocals can go to a effects module or use the vl2/vl4 effects.

total control of volumes, i reduce the volume on my little mixer to my vocals and adjust accordingly without bending down, etc, etc...

I hope you understand my idea, as soon as i try it (if nobody else beats me) i will let you know how it sounds.

I accept paypal donations for this idea cause i have abuse my brain!! hahaha :lol:

I will like to hear your comments and feel free to ask me any questions.

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[orbm1]

Does the Mixer record you?

not, it does not, it is for the idea that just mentioned in another post, sorry for the confusion :confused:

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[minstrel29]

I got mine thursday. Trying out various presets and trying to get the ins and outs of this thing. Monday I will try it with the band.

Its so cool...

[jfwong]

Finally! My VL4 just shipped out from Musician's Friend and I am ecstaaatic! I'll post impressions and how well it works with a keyboard setup when I get to use it next (which unfortunately will probably be sometime next week)

[~Musicman~]

My idea about is as follows:

vl2 two harmonies
vl4 4 harmonies and unisons and change genders...

so....
if i hooke a mic to the ... I hope you understand my idea, as soon as i try it (if nobody else beats me) i will let you know how it sounds.

I will like to hear your comments and feel free to ask me any questions.

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

I think this is a redundant use of the harmonizers since the VL4 can do all that with the press of a pedal. I would suggest selling the VL2 and you will see why after using the VL4. ;)

[GlennGalen]

I think this is a redundant use of the harmonizers since the VL4 can do all that with the press of a pedal.

Six harmonies?

No. Just 4. Omar wants a BIG, 6-person sound.

[orbm1]

Ok, first impressions....

I just play with the vl4 today...

overall, it is a machine with a lot of potential!!! but a little harder to use than the vl2, vl2 is plug and play, vl4, plug, learn, play...

i did not like the presets, there are some that are really crappy, some that are good... eq your vocal does not alter the harmony , well, at least i think...

The preset that impress me was the gals duet.... WOW! i sounded like a girl! and pretty good, too... my wife came to my music room and she asked who was that girl singing????....

that being said, I try to mod that preset and it was not that easy, it was not hard either but i needed to think a lot... and i did not get the results i wanted....

anyways...

eq it is not easy... I think it is easier to eq your main mixer, even more if your voice needs eq. (like mine does)

The guitar effects are very good, my nylon string guitar sounds awesome with the leslie effect.

The sound quality thru a mixer it is not as clear as the vl2 i think, i have not tried it straight to the speakers bypassing the mixer...

still, I am very happy and i am looking forward to "learn" how to take advantage of this great device.... still, i think, for plug and play benefits, the vl2 is the winner! for potential: the vl4!

hope this helps.

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Omar.

Please keep us abreast of your progress.

Michael

[Keithos28]

After reading GlennGalen [see his thread in this topic earlier] experimentation on overdubbing; I attempted this; using the VL4 Preset 32 on 'redemption song' [Bob Marley] in the refrain. The original has no harmonies so it was a challenge. The over dubbing came out a little too loud [lead voice should be higher] on the multitracker so one has to be careful [if playing live]. Using it in the studio you can always turn the fader slightly down. Another song was 'Me and Bobby McGee' {simple stuff} where Kris Kristoferson sings lead and Jackson Browne lends a helping 3rd above [I think]. I choose pre-set 1. If you have a good ear and can tell what harmonies are coming through on the original recording then you are better off choosing the correct Preset or possibly making your own. I am sure I am only scratching the surface on this product so far. By the way GlennGalen; enjoyed your songs [on your website] especially the instrumental. Thanks to all ....

[GlennGalen]

By the way GlennGalen; enjoyed your songs [on your website] especially the instrumental.

Keithos,

Thanks for letting me know. That song you are talking about is probably "Traveling By Night", an instrumental inspired by Mark Knopfler's wonderful style. He's my biggest inspiration when it comes to my guitar style.

[gc24]

Whatever it's called, you do it well.

[m1westwood]

I got my VL2 and the VL4 is on order, and I have a question regarding levels for both devices. I used my VL2 live last week, and it sounded great - unfortunately, it blew up half way through the show. Just started clicking and then died all at once. When I got home, it was working again, but when I hit a hard chord or palm mute on the ovation it would die and not come back for 3o-60 seconds. I read the manual, and the LED never even went Amber or Red, so I am not sure how I could be overloading it. However, when I turn the preamp out on the ovation down half way, it seems to be fine. I initially had it all the way up, because the manual says it should be green most of the time, and I was barely getting a reading.

The questions are - is my unit defective because it is not letting me know the true signal level coming in, hence blowing the input? Is there some type of overload timer that shuts it off to protect it if you pummel it? And most importantly, has anyone experienced this with either unit?

[gc24]

Why not call Digitech and ask them?

[Michael Angel]

Mike,

I've been reading all the VL2 and VL4 threads and user reviews I can get my hands on for the last couple of months and I have not read about anyone mentioning your specific problem. There has been plenty about the green light barely getting a reading but nothing about it over-loading and coming back in 30 to 60 seconds. Definately think going straight to the company on your question would be in order.

Please keep us posted on what you discover.

Best of luck,

Michael

[m1westwood]

Mike,

I've been reading all the VL2 and VL4 threads and user reviews I can get my hands on for the last couple of months and I have not read about anyone mentioning your specific problem. There has been plenty about the green light barely getting a reading but nothing about it over-loading and coming back in 30 to 60 seconds. Definately think going straight to the company on your question would be inb order.

Please keep us posted on what you discover.

Michael

I will let you know what they say. I got a very nice email from 3db saying they believe the unit is probably defective as well and I should check with Digitech.

[geckoland]

What is your favorite lead effect on the VL4?

I have been playing around with some of the lead effects on the VL4, which are a lot of fun. Here is a list of my preferences:

Favorite: persona 14 Rock - I really like the sound of this persona on my voice. Adds a richness that I am unfortunately lacking otherwise.

Funniest: persona 16 Bob - Try singing your favorite Bob Dylan song with this persona - You will be on the floor laughing before you are done.

2nd Funniest: persona 17 Sheep - Can't see using this in a gig, but it might come in handy singing a Scottish folk song at a jam!

Geckoland

[pacAir]

Against all odds, the Oct. 5th date MF gave to me as their receive date for the current batch of VL4s was accurate. I got a Shipping Notice with Tracking on Oct. 6 and the VL4 is on its way at the $399 price AND on time!

What are the odds?

Seriously, I'll take anyone to task who screws around with my reality but I will give kudos to those that deliver the goods and Musician's Friend came through without a single extra prompting from me! Good work, keep it up and make it standard procedure!

pacAir

[Michael Angel]

pacAir,

Enjoy your soon to arrive VL4!

I just got off the UPS tracking sight and mine is making its way down from Georgia to South Florida with an on-time delivery scheduled for tomorrow - Thursday.

Musician's Friend actually had me down for an October 28th delivery and then out of the blue last Friday I found the "Golden Ticket" in my inbox - delivery confirmation and they in fact did honor the $399 price.

I have been waiting so long for this thing I could practically work a part-time tech support job, I have read the manual so many times and talked to so many people about it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it when you get it.

Michael

[Michael Angel]

Hey guys,

Like Geckoland, I too would love to know about your favorite Lead Effects.

Also, does anyone have any insight on the best ways to use the Unison harmonies to thicken up the voice without it sounding over the top?

Thanks.

[Arizona Ken]

UPS came by this afternoon......... I've been having a ball this evening....... Trying the old party stuff, "Two Pina Coladas", "Margaritaville", "Helplessly Hoping", using the CSN preset to play around with "Lean On Me"..... using a third up and a third down on the chorus of John Denver's "Back Home Again"..... Presets 11 and 12 use female vocals - tried them on the last two lines of the verses of Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight" - pretty sweet.

The unit takes a little getting used to, to get the levels and input right from the guitar and then patching the signal to the Crate..... will have to experiment more.....

Would like to write more, but want to get back and try some more stuff.... will keep everyone posted!!

Arizona Ken

[geckoland]

Hi Everyone,

My friend just got his VL 4 yesterday and asked me to come over and help him with his setup. He was having trouble with his sound quality. He said he was getting some distortion and couldn't figure out why. Well, when I got there, the answer was clear - He was taking the XLR out from the VL4 and plugging that into his microphone pre-amp, which made sense to him because that is where he plugged his XLR mic cable in before he got the VL4.

THE VL4 XLR OUT JACKS ARE LINE LEVEL - NOT MIC LEVEL

I changed his setup to use the 1/4" outs right into his mixer and everything worked fine. Alternatively he could have used an XLR to 1/4" cable and used the XLR outs, but he didn't have a cable like that.

From reading other posts, it seems that this is a common problem that people are having (admittedly I did the same thing and had to read the manual to figure out what was going on), so remember

DO NOT PLUG THE XLR OUTPUTS FROM THE VL4 INTO A MIC PRE-AMP - THEY SHOULD GO INTO A LINE LEVEL INPUT.

Hope this prevents a headache or two for a few people.

Happy VL4ing

Geckoland

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Geckoland.

[~Musicman~]

Hi Everyone,

My friend just got his VL 4 yesterday and asked me to come over and help him with his setup. He was having trouble with his sound quality. He said he was getting some distortion and couldn't figure out why. Well, when I got there, the answer was clear - He was taking the XLR out from the VL4 and plugging that into his microphone pre-amp, which made sense to him because that is where he plugged his XLR mic cable in before he got the VL4.

THE VL4 XLR OUT JACKS ARE LINE LEVEL - NOT MIC LEVEL

I changed his setup to use the 1/4" outs right into his mixer and everything worked fine. Alternatively he could have used an XLR to 1/4" cable and used the XLR outs, but he didn't have a cable like that.

From reading other posts, it seems that this is a common problem that people are having (admittedly I did the same thing and had to read the manual to figure out what was going on), so remember

DO NOT PLUG THE XLR OUTPUTS FROM THE VL4 INTO A MIC PRE-AMP - THEY SHOULD GO INTO A LINE LEVEL INPUT.

Hope this prevents a headache or two for a few people.

Happy VL4ing

Geckoland

Sounds like another case of the 'Gozintas'
;)

[gc24]

Here's something really funny to try with the VL4, try the song Mr. Sandman with the Chipmunk voices.

[orbm1]

Here's something really funny to try with the VL4, try the song Mr. Sandman with the Chipmunk voices.

Which one is Mr. Sandman?

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[gc24]

No, the song is Mr. Sandman, google for it.

[orbm1]

ok, thanks!

[~Musicman~]

I tried the VL4 with a keyboard (instead of guitar) and it works great.
I don't know why it is advertised specifically for guitar? I think it has a HUGE potential for keyboard people who feel left out on this deal.

:cool:

[Anderton]

I tried the VL4 with a keyboard (instead of guitar) and it works great.
I don't know why it is advertised specifically for guitar? I think it has a HUGE potential for keyboard people who feel left out on this deal.

:cool:

This is something I mentioned early on, starting with the VL2 Pro Review and the VL2 review in EQ magazine. I asked DigiTech about this at Summer NAMM, and the answer was that the unit was designed for guitar, and that they were concerned that if they said it worked with keyboards, someone would input something like a high string pad and say "Hey! It doesn't work!!" But they didn't seem to mind my spreading the word that the VL boxes work with fine with a ton of keyboard sounds.

[dougsthang]

Don't feel bad guys, I work for the company and I just got my VL4 today. We had such a back order it took us a few production runs to catch up.

It does take a little getting used to but once you dial it in it's really friggin' fun. Just the sounds of the mic in unison with a little reverb and delay is worth it alone.

[Michael Angel]

Dougsthang,

I couldn't agree more.

[minstrel29]

My band does a lot of Jethro Tull covers. I just tried the vocalist with the song Heavy Horses which has a lot of Ian Anderson harmony.

THIS THING IS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just used the TENORS preset, added a bit of PC and VOILA!

Its So COOL!

Bill

[ph_dal]

Hi, VL4 fans.

Don't know if this can be useful to anyone... Just did it to "record" my best setups in case of a factory reset...:). It prints on one page with all details... Values can just be written in the cases as needed.

Ph:)

[gc24]

Open it with what?

[geckoland]

Thanks Ph

That will be useful. It is really nice to see everything on one page. It will be useful for keeping track of my favorite presets, but also just seeing all the options on one page gives me more ideas for things to try.

Thanks for sharing.

Geckoland

[ph_dal]

Open it with what?

Just unzip it and use MS Excell ... or OpenOffice of course....

Cheers

[gc24]

Ok, don't have either.

[Serjr]

Ok, don't have either.

Go get Open Office its free and it will do everything Microsoft office will do but cost you $0.00. That is if you are NOT running on a MAC.
http://download.openoffice.org/

Also find winzip.
Serjr

[gc24]

Thanks, I already have Win zip and rar.

[Michael Angel]

Anderton,

I really need your help. I just read your TECH TIP: Compressors Demystified article at Musician's Friend website. Excellent article! Could you please help me make sense of the values used by Digitech on the VL4 Comp/Gate section? The values they use seem to have no relationship to anything I have ever encountered in my years working with compressors. How does the 1.0-5.0 used by Digitech relate to traditional ratio values? How does a range of 0-99 relate to setting Threshold in terms of decibels (I've read the 0 equals 0db and 99 equals -40 db) Wouldn't it have made more sense to make 0 equals 0db and -40 equals -40db??? How does the range of 1-9 relate to milliseconds for setting Attack/Release? It might have been better to use traditional values? Can you please help me make sense of it all? Thanks.

[Anderton]

Go get Open Office its free and it will do everything Microsoft office will do but cost you $0.00. That is if you are NOT running on a MAC.
http://download.openoffice.org/

Also find winzip.
Serjr

Open Office runs just fine on OSX-based Macs, I use it on my dual G5 all the time You just need the X11 shell or dookie or whatever it is...you can get all the details from the OpenOffice.org site. :)

[Anderton]

Anderton,

I really need your help. I just read your TECH TIP: Compressors Demystified article at Musician's Friend website. Excellent article! Could you please help me make sense of the values used by Digitech on the VL4 Comp/Gate section? The values they use seem to have no relationship to anything I have ever encountered in my years working with compressors. How does the 1.0-5.0 used by Digitech relate to traditional ratio values? How does a range of 0-99 relate to setting Threshold in terms of decibels (I've read the 0 equals 0db and 99 equals -40 db) Wouldn't it have made more sense to make 0 equals 0db and -40 equals -40db??? How does the range of 1-9 relate to milliseconds for setting Attack/Release? It might have been better to use traditional values? Can you please help me make sense of it all? Thanks.

It wouldn't surprise me if the ratio control actually relates to the ratio. As to the rest, it's best to adjust with your ears anyway...it's difficult to relate arbitrary values to "real numbers." All you really need to know is "lower threshold means more squashing" and you'll be okay :)

[RainsongDR1000]

My band does a lot of Jethro Tull covers. I just tried the vocalist with the song Heavy Horses which has a lot of Ian Anderson harmony.

THIS THING IS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just used the TENORS preset, added a bit of PC and VOILA!

Its So COOL!

Bill

Wow, another Tull cover act, wish you lived close to us! Have you tried it on "Songs from the wood" yet?

[minstrel29]

Wow, another Tull cover act, wish you lived close to us! Have you tried it on "Songs from the wood" yet?

Not yet but its on my list to try!

[Michael Angel]

ph dal,

Your spreadsheet is phenomenal!!! Digitech should put you on the payroll and send you a big fat check.

Thanks a lot,

Michael

[Michael Angel]

I got the following response from Digitech:

The VL4 settings are as follows:

Compression Ratio: The compression ratio values of 1.0 - 5.0 are the
actual ratio values.

Threshold: The 0-99 range maps to threshold values of 0dB - 40dB, so if
you have a specific threshold you want, you can get the correct VL-4
number with the following equation: VL4_value = (dB_Thresh/-40) * 99. So
for example, if you want a threshold of -30dB, you would choose
VL4_value = (-30/-40)*99 = 74.

Attack/Release Times: The single rate parameters controls both the
attack and release times, which have been optimized for vocal compression.
Since there is no real consistency on how people specify these times,
it's difficult to give numbers that can provide direct comparison. But
in terms of rough figures, a value of 1 is roughly 25 ms attack, 200 ms
release, and a value of 9 is roughly 4 ms attack, 30 ms release.

Regards,

Shane Vander Veur
Digitech Support

[Anderton]

Thanks Michael!!

[Michael Angel]

Hey Guys,

Here is a quick follow-up e-mail I received.

VL4 compression ratio:

1= 1:1, 2= 2:1, 2.5 for example = 2.5:1, 3= 3:1, 4= 4:1, 5= 5:1

1= no compression 5= the maximum amount of compression the VL4 can obtain above the threshold setting.

Regards,

Shane Vander Veur
DigiTech Support

[ph_dal]

ph dal,

Your spreadsheet is phenomenal!!! Digitech should put you on the payroll and send you a big fat check.

Thanks a lot,

Michael

My Pleasure, thanks for your very kind comment. I hope it will be some kind of vehicule to share patches...:)

Cheers

Ph

[ph_dal]

Hello,

Given the latest feedback from Digitech, (and hoping we'll get more), I put in the spreadsheet two very simple "calculators".

First is a Threshold table: you enter the amount of db (with a "minus") on the left, you get the VL4 input number on the right.

Second is the Attach/Release table, based on the two values provided. As this is a 1-to-2, I did it the reverse way: you enter the VL4 value (between 1 and 9), and you get the attack and release times in ms.

I will expand with others as information is made available.

No need for pocket calculator anymore, just your computer.... :)

Here is VL_2.

Ph

[Diatonick]

As far as I can tell, no...guitar thru is just to pick off the guitar signal then send it along to your subsequent amplification system.

I agree with Anderton. Guitar thru is just to pick off the guitar signal for amplification.

diatonick

[Michael Angel]

ph dal,

Those calculators are tremendous!

I had been ready to just write off the whole Comp/Gate section but using the new information from DigiTech I've been able to really dial it in and make it functional.

Thanks again,

Michael

[whinersmusic]

Hi Everyone,

My friend just got his VL 4 yesterday and asked me to come over and help him with his setup. He was having trouble with his sound quality. He said he was getting some distortion and couldn't figure out why. Well, when I got there, the answer was clear - He was taking the XLR out from the VL4 and plugging that into his microphone pre-amp, which made sense to him because that is where he plugged his XLR mic cable in before he got the VL4.

THE VL4 XLR OUT JACKS ARE LINE LEVEL - NOT MIC LEVEL

I changed his setup to use the 1/4" outs right into his mixer and everything worked fine. Alternatively he could have used an XLR to 1/4" cable and used the XLR outs, but he didn't have a cable like that.

From reading other posts, it seems that this is a common problem that people are having (admittedly I did the same thing and had to read the manual to figure out what was going on), so remember

DO NOT PLUG THE XLR OUTPUTS FROM THE VL4 INTO A MIC PRE-AMP - THEY SHOULD GO INTO A LINE LEVEL INPUT.

Hope this prevents a headache or two for a few people.

Happy VL4ing

Geckoland

Amen!
Just thought I'd check back in on my issue with hiss and distortion. I purchased a line pad for use with my XLR cable and it did the trick pretty well. Resolved my issues really (including hiss with a higher voice level now working). I do agree that the natural assumption is that the XLR out to the XLR in is going to be compatible sound wise at your mixer (or pre-amp). So, be careful on your balanced/unblaanced lines and level expectations when setting up. My own expecations vs. the DigiTech set up were at odds for a bit and it wasn't pretty! I really thought I was going to get mic level out. Who reads the manual right?

I'd like to add that after using the VLs for some several weeks now, they are doing pretty well what I want them to do. The VL 4 has got the extra options for voices and correction etc all of which seem to have a time and place for use as you are reading on these pages.

Believe it or not, my only beef now is with the expression pedal option. I need to use this to engage harmony with my set up. My rack is such that I can't use the VL 4 itself to flick on and off (or use the "hold" on and off) harmony - the VL is raised off the floor and in a box and doesn't lend itself to chagnes during songs.

The expression pedal can be configured to control harmony but it is really more a level adjustment than an on/off. By this I mean, when you come on with the pedal you are bringing in the volume mix adjustment - not just the harmony itself to a pre-set level. The harmony mix adjustment at the VL 4 itself is bypassed and you control it at the pedal.

What bugs me is that none of the pedals I've tried are sensitive enough (or able to hold a postion) to give a nice mix of harmony and lead vox. So, what I've been forced to do, is use some foam padding basically in between the pedal itself to control how much level comes out of the harmony with the pedal.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to let the pedal bring on your harmony to the level fixed at the VL 4? Or is this another example of my own sensibility being at odds with everyone else?

I've yet to find a pedal good enough to hold a postion well enough to do the job instead of this foam-insert-in-the-pedal idea. I've found that the level is not easy to control via the foot at any rate i.e. your sound comes in fairly quickly and the difference between full toe down and mid toe down isn't that great a difference.

Anyhow, there you go. Thanks for the great charts and the additon of the compression tool on the spread sheet is fantastic!
Cheers,

[jfwong]

Hello,

Given the latest feedback from Digitech, (and hoping we'll get more), I put in the spreadsheet two very simple "calculators".

First is a Threshold table: you enter the amount of db (with a "minus") on the left, you get the VL4 input number on the right.

Second is the Attach/Release table, based on the two values provided. As this is a 1-to-2, I did it the reverse way: you enter the VL4 value (between 1 and 9), and you get the attack and release times in ms.

I will expand with others as information is made available.

No need for pocket calculator anymore, just your computer.... :)

Here is VL_2.

Ph

Well I know I'm a noob, but I know that this is a great piece of work... except I have absolutely no idea how to use it (I'm an excel 'freshman'). Anyone willing to give a quick run down of the file's capabilities?

[orbm1]

There is a very informative demo video of the vl4 in digitech website, check it out!:

http://www.digitech.com/products/Vocalist_Live4/Vocalist_LIVE4_Video.php

hope it helps!

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

[Anderton]

Wow, you got the link up before I could! Thanks!

BTW cool job on the calculator. And Whinersmusic, glad you've got the level thing sorted out. Guess we'll work on the expression pedal thing next :)

[gc24]

Thanks ORBM1, That helped out alot.

[ph_dal]

Well I know I'm a noob, but I know that this is a great piece of work... except I have absolutely no idea how to use it (I'm an excel 'freshman'). Anyone willing to give a quick run down of the file's capabilities?

Hello, JFWONG.

Well actually, you use it exactely the way you want.. you can use it as a reference to have an overview-on-one-page of all parameters, you can print it and write with a pen your values in each block as you want them, you can use the spreadsheet program to put your wanted value in each cell (replacing the info actually in those) and collect all your patches (actually, you can duplicate the sheet and rename each to the name you want, and collect all as multiple sheets in the same file, etc...

It is not sophisticated at all, to allow maximum flexibility... well I think...;)

Take care.

Ph

[~Musicman~]

There is a very informative demo video of the vl4 in digitech website, check it out!:

http://www.digitech.com/products/Vocalist_Live4/Vocalist_LIVE4_Video.php

hope it helps!

Thanks :wave:

Omar :thu:

I wish that video would have lasted for hours.
I will record and post a You Tube video of 'Blackbird' being played (and sung) using 2 notes, 3 notes, full chords, and at slow and fast speeds. The VL4 tracks it all with the proper vocal phrasing.

[timmol]

ok

[timmol]

i listened to ur song 'you'll never find out' did u write it urself? the lyrics are woeful. sounds like something a 9 yr old would compose

[ph_dal]

i listened to ur song 'you'll never find out' did u write it urself? the lyrics are woeful. sounds like something a 9 yr old would compose

I don't think such comment is of any value in this forum... (or others actually)!

[timmol]

I don't think such comment is of any value in this forum... (or others actually)!

think what u want mate but that's my opinion and i'm entitled to give it

[gc24]

Your right, you are entitled to you opinion mate, but it appears that money can't buy class and you comment although you may think it's ok, is way out of line. If you have material that you think is good, post it. Artists come in all sizes, flavors and shapes. Hit the delete button next time that you think it's fine to be rude or critical. Might save you the embarrassment of people looking at you and judgeing you.

[gc24]

Here's something for you guys to try out: Do you like Blues/Soul Music? Yes?, well try this. Play Wilson Pickett's 634-5789, use the preset # 10, and go to the Lead Effects Persona and select #5 Per Big. Your voice will be deep on the verses, but on the Chorus's 634-5789 , the harmony will be the higher females singing. Very cool.

[timmol]

Might save you the embarrassment of people looking at you and judgeing you.

i'm not embarrassed at all my friend i don't know what makes u think i am. i don't have any material to post because i'm not a musician. i think you meant to spell the word 'judging' in your post.

[gc24]

Ok, thanks, does it make you feel better that you found an error in my post? If your not a musician, then you have no room to talk about another's work, and I'm not your friend.

[timmol]

If your not a musician,

did u mean to type "you're" or do u just have trouble with spelling? lol

[stevolives]

from what I have read, this is a tremendous piece of gear. i went out wednesday and bought the voicetone CREATE and CORRECT pedals. i got them because i believe in helicons quality and they are not very complicated which i love. i've never had a need for the harmonies, HOWEVER, i do like unison harmonies just for thickening and i want pitch correction. although CREATE has 'thickening' it is not the same as unison harmonies. question is, should i take them both back and get a VL 4? the price would be the same for both voicetones or VL 4. i hate telling guitar center, well, let me have a VL 4 now too just to check out but hey, how else can i really tinker enough to know? curious opinions. so far, the voice tone products are really nice, but when i see that the VL 4 is the same price as both of them, it makes me think i need to investigate. thanks for reading.

[geckoland]

Hi Stevolives,

Tough decision. Helicon does make good gear, but on the other hand, the VL4 is really quite an incredible box. I have owned a Helicon VoiceLive, but I have not tried the new Create and Correct pedals. It sounds like you are most interested in pitch correction and thickening.

As far as pitch correction goes, I feel the pitch correction on the VL4 is superior to the Helicon VoiceLive (which is most likely similar to the Correct pedal). The controls are very similar, but the pitch shifting sounds smoother on the VL 4.

I have to agree with you that thickening your voice with unison harmonies sounds way better than thickening your voice with the thicken effect. Both the thicken effect in the VoiceLive and the thicken effect in the VL 4 do not come close to the sound you get when you add unison harmonies. Just check out the demo on the Digitech site to see how effective the unison harmonies are for thickening.

http://www.digitech.com/products/Vocalist_Live4/Vocalist_LIVE4_Video.php

And if you are in to ease of use, the VL 4 is about the easiest to use piece of gear I own. It has a very intuitive layout and it is easy modify effects to your liking.

I guess the other thing you have to consider is if you really want to have two separate pedals in your voice signal path. If you daisy chain them together you will double the latency (i.e. the delay between when you sing something and when you hear it coming out the speakers), which would not be good, especially if you are using pitch correction which adds extra latency. I guess you could run them with an A/B switch but then you could only use one of the pedals at a time.

I think you should really get a VL4 and try it out before making your decision though. And let us know what you decide!

Geckoland

PS Even though you are not interested in using harmony, I think that once you try the VL4, you might change your mind. It isn't any harder than adding unison voices when you have a guitar signal driving them, and they sound great!

[stevolives]

Geckoland, thank you very much for that post! You nailed what I am looking for. Thickening and pitch correction. When you say:

"Both the thicken effect in the VoiceLive and the thicken effect in the VL 4 do not come close to the sound you get when you add unison harmonies."

You mean that Unison harmonies are the way to go over the thicken effect in either box I believe. And you can't get unison in the create pedal, therefore, again, the VL 4 box is the way to go.

On the correct box, you can make it where you only hear your pitch corrected voice, or both together, that causes an undesirable doubling kinda thing where one voice is in tune and one is not. There may be a use for it for training but not playing out. I read a review on the VL4 and it said that that is how its pitch correction sounds, you hear BOTH the corrected and uncorrected voice in Unison. True? Surely this is a tweakable paramater but very important if you do end up with that doubled one pitch in tune and one pitch duffed kind of sound. Really curious on that. On the voicetone correct pedal, it can be whichever way you want. I agree on daisychaining as well, not optimal and latency looks phoney. It's amazing how much latency I notice when watching lots of these awards shows. No, they aren't lip syncing alot, but because of the latency, ya wonder.

my final predicament, the dude at guitar center said they have a 30 day thing where you can return it. It won't take me near 30 days to evaluate but they always bust your balls when you return something it seems like. Now I have the 2 voicetone pedals. This afternoon, I am going to go get a VL4, there, I've laid $1k out...... Then next week, I will return either the VL4 (for some reason I doubt it) or the 2 Voicetone pedals. Will they give me any crap on this?? Thanks again and will be reporting and checking back. :)

[jfwong]

did u mean to type "you're" or do u just have trouble with spelling? lol

Seriously, why the heck are there flamers on a constructive post about a piece of equipment? If you guys really want to settle a score, post some actual music you've done and compare it... IN ANOTHER FORUM!

[cmala]

They have a 30 day return policy. Just save your receipt, don't spill beer on it and keep all stuff that came in the box and they can't give you any crap. I have heard people talk about buying several microphones, trying them all out and returning all but the one that sounds the best. Don't keep a $500 piece of equipment you aren't going to use just because you feel bad about returning it. :)

[geckoland]

Geckoland, thank you very much for that post! You nailed what I am looking for. Thickening and pitch correction. When you say:

"Both the thicken effect in the VoiceLive and the thicken effect in the VL 4 do not come close to the sound you get when you add unison harmonies."

You mean that Unison harmonies are the way to go over the thicken effect in either box I believe. And you can't get unison in the create pedal, therefore, again, the VL 4 box is the way to go.

That is exactly what I am saying.


On the correct box, you can make it where you only hear your pitch corrected voice, or both together, that causes an undesirable doubling kinda thing where one voice is in tune and one is not. There may be a use for it for training but not playing out. I read a review on the VL4 and it said that that is how its pitch correction sounds, you hear BOTH the corrected and uncorrected voice in Unison. True?

No, this is not true. I have read the same thing in a few posts but they are incorrect. There is absolutely no dry coming through the VL 4 box when you have pitch correct on. I have even done recordings to confirm this. Perhaps you can confirm this Anderton, since it seems to be a point of confusion for some users.


Surely this is a tweakable paramater but very important if you do end up with that doubled one pitch in tune and one pitch duffed kind of sound. Really curious on that. On the voicetone correct pedal, it can be whichever way you want.

It is not tweakable on the VL 4. You only get the pitch corrected voice. I have to say, I can't see much use for mixing in the dry.

Anyway, hope this helps, and good luck with your comparison. Perhaps you could report back on any interesting things you find!

Thanks,

Geckoland

[stevolives]

geckoland, thought so on all counts. no sir, do not need to mix in the out of tune voc as well but would be curious if anderton has an experience on this. really though, don't see that being the case. you'd go from out of tune to just weird sounding, not by choice. well, i sit here with my new 4L in the box and am about to crack a brewskie, sit on the sofa and go through the manual a bit. Am excited. Not sure why, but based on what I have read, 99% sure the 2 helicon voicetone products will go back to the store on monday. thanks all!! it's gonna be a good weekend. :)

[stevolives]

Hey all, well, it's a no brainer, am keeping the VL4 and returning both voicetone pedals. I am so very happy with this pedal compared to the voicetone. Sure they were nice, but this pedal is so all encompassing. It really does it all. One little question, you can't EQ the guitar can you? Appears needs to be done PRE VL 4. Thanks!

[timmol]

he's gone to buy a dictionary b4 his next post lol

[geckoland]

Hi All,

I don't about all of you, but I have found this forum to be very useful and informative. However, some of the comments lately have been rather useless and counter-productive. I have seen this happen many times before where someone who is not particularly interested in the topic of the forum starts posting comments that are mainly intended to start fights. I have to admit that I don't understand the enjoyment that someone can get out of this. Pretty pathetic in my opinion, but I guess some people just live pathetic lives.

The best way to deal with people like this is to IGNORE THEM. Just don't respond to anything they post. It would be nice if the administrators would ban them, but even that would be giving them more attention than they deserve.

Geckoland

[geckoland]

Hey all, well, it's a no brainer, am keeping the VL4 and returning both voicetone pedals. I am so very happy with this pedal compared to the voicetone. Sure they were nice, but this pedal is so all encompassing. It really does it all. One little question, you can't EQ the guitar can you? Appears needs to be done PRE VL 4. Thanks!

On a brighter note.

Hi Stevolives - I agree. I would not give up my VL 4 for any other pedal out there! You are right about the EQ. There is no EQ on the guitar path so doing it before the VL4 is the only way if you are mixing the guitar signal into the main outs. My pickup has a great EQ on it, so I wouldn't use the EQ in the VL4 even if it had one.

Geckoland

[MoT-2]

:thu:

I play with a variety of different bands (all cover bands admittedly ;) ) I mainly plan to use the VL4 for acoustic gigs by myself. I've only had it a short time and have been using it to beef up songs with one or two harmonies added in with great effect. Although Peaceful Easy Feeling just sounds great with a third, fifth and octave up! :) Took a little bit of tweaking to get the sounds reasonably satisfactory. Yes, you can tell there's a digital edge, esepecially when playing solo gigs, and yes people start to look at you funny when they hear three part harmony coming out of one mic but overall the response from the crowds has been positive, if a little bemused!

I've also used it doing session work around my home town in local bars/clubs. Filled in for a guy who has a WAY more versatile singing range than me. I have a terrible falsetto so I cheated BIG TIME using the octave up and female voices! The audience hadnt a clue, I told the band after the first gig and they nearly peed their pants coz they KNEW I can't normally sing that high! The audience once again gave positive responses too! Bear in mind that most of your audience are not musicians and they wouldn't notice half of what's going on anyway. What interested me was that, although musicians in the room noticed something odd about my voice, they were still convinced I was singing it - even when we did Four Non Blondes - What's Up (AS A JOKE). Most of the pitch shifting was for brief falsetto bits, intended as subtle!

One gripe I have is that it only seems to add guitar effects through the main XLR output. I like to put my guitar into the PA separately. I was looking forward to using some of the onboard effects for my acoustic gigs but not through the same channel as my vocal mic because I EQ it differently to my guitar.

Can the onboard effects be used on the guitar thru or line outs? I was hoping to keep the pedals at my feet to bare minimum - ie DI box, Loop Sampler, Vocalist. That's it. Have I missed something?

Tom

[Michael Angel]

Hey Guys,

There are so many of you that I respect on here that I was hoping some of you who have worked with the VL4 and have some audio engineering experience could give me some help.

What would you consider to be some of the best options I would have to interface my VL4 with my mixing board and outboard compressor and multi-effects processor to have maximum control over my vocal and guitar sound?

Here is my thinking... even though the VL4 by itself is has a nice simple stand alone mix of effects, vocal harmonies and guitar, I want to use each individual piece of equipment at my disposal to its maximum advantage and original purpose. In other words, I want each piece to do what it does best.

I want to use the VL4 for vocal processing (pitch correction, unison, and harmonies), a dedicated mixer for routing and EQ, a dbx 266XL compressor/gate to catch transients, a Lexicon MX400 for reverb and chorus effects, a Fishman Aura Acoustic Image Blender for guitar.

I love the solo acoustic/electric guitar and vocal material I am doing and would really appreciate any and all feedback I can get on how to put all that equipment together for the best sound quality and control.

By the way, I so wish the VL4 had direct and separate dry vocal and harmony vocal output but it doesn't.

I am familiar with the traditional use of using the line "insert" for dynamics processing and Aux sends and returns for effects on the board but I am just confused on interfacing those concepts with the VL4. For example, if I want to use my outboard compressor would it be best to plug my mic directly into my board and use the line insert for the compressor and send the aux to the VL4 line in? Or would it be best to plug my mic directly into the VL4 and take the VL4 output and run it into the mixer? Which are my signal routing options?

In short, what set-up(s) do you think would give me maximum control over my sound?

Thanks,

Michael Angel Ambrosio

[Anderton]

i listened to ur song 'you'll never find out' did u write it urself? the lyrics are woeful. sounds like something a 9 yr old would compose

Well thanks! FYI you misspelled "wonderful" as "woeful." You might need to get your keyboard fixed :)

Seriously though, at this point in my life, it doesn't matter to me what other people think. Hundreds of thousands, maybe close to a million, people have bought albums I've worked on. And many millions more haven't. I make music and the people who like it, like it...and the people who don't have plenty of other options.

You might want to listen to the full version before passing judgement on the song, though. The excerpts I posted were to help people pass judgement on the VL...different things. And if you did listen to the whole song, that's fine too. If you want to start a separate thread called "Craig Anderton's Music Sucks Monkey Balls," then my "Sound, Studio, and Stage" forum would be a more appropriate venue :) However note that I never released that song, it was done as a demo of the Line 6 KB37 interface for a review I wrote for Keyboard magazine...so people who HAVE bought my records probably won't know what you're talking about.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[timmol]

Hi All,

I don't about all of you, but I have found this forum to be very useful and informative. However, some of the comments lately have been rather useless and counter-productive. I have seen this happen many times before where someone who is not particularly interested in the topic of the forum starts posting comments that are mainly intended to start fights. I have to admit that I don't understand the enjoyment that someone can get out of this. Pretty pathetic in my opinion, but I guess some people just live pathetic lives.

The best way to deal with people like this is to IGNORE THEM. Just don't respond to anything they post. It would be nice if the administrators would ban them, but even that would be giving them more attention than they deserve.

Geckoland


here here i don't about all of you lol but i think he's right just ignore them

[jfwong]

here here i don't about all of you lol but i think he's right just ignore them

Wait, who exactly are we talking about again?

:badump:

[Michael Angel]

Tom,

The guitar thru simply taps your guitar input and does not carry with it any of the onboard effects.

Off the top of my head, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, the onboard effects, in particular the Reverb and Modulation, can be used on your guitar but not independent of the voice. In other words, whatever effects you are using on the voice will be applied to the guitar.

Also, although you can control the mix of the lead voice, harmonies, and guitar coming out of the VL4 output, the unit does not have separate outputs.

Hope that answers your question,

Michael

[jfwong]

Tom,

The guitar thru simply taps your guitar input and does not carry with it any of the onboard effects.

Off the top of my head, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, the onboard effects, in particular the Reverb and Modulation, can be used on your guitar but not independent of the voice. In other words, whatever effects you are using on the voice will be applied to the guitar.

Also, although you can control the mix of the lead voice, harmonies, and guitar coming out of the VL4 output, the unit does not have separate outputs.

Hope that answers your question,

Michael

Does anyone have a list of effects that affect the guitar input as well as the voice? For some reason the other night my VL4 was affecting both inputs regardless of the patch but the problem stopped at another practice... still some of the patches still mess with the guitar input sound.

[MoT-2]

Tom,

The guitar thru simply taps your guitar input and does not carry with it any of the onboard effects.

Off the top of my head, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, the onboard effects, in particular the Reverb and Modulation, can be used on your guitar but not independent of the voice. In other words, whatever effects you are using on the voice will be applied to the guitar.

Also, although you can control the mix of the lead voice, harmonies, and guitar coming out of the VL4 output, the unit does not have separate outputs.

Hope that answers your question,

Michael

Kind of answers it for me - the only issue is: Can I use the onboard effects for my guitar without using the same as the vocal channel? For example - if I leave off all vocal effects, can I use the guitar effects via an alternative output to the mic output?

[minstrel29]

Hi
Can anyone tell me how to get the "telephone" vocal effect? If anyone knows the soft section of Tull's "Aqualung" thats what I'm trying to do.

Thanks
BIll

[Michael Angel]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd share something that I was just experimenting with on the VL4 and that is the "STYLE AMOUNT." It is found in the Harmony Menu. I had left it alone because I had the LEAD EFFECT set to OFF but it turns out to still have an affect on the Harmonies. If you find your harmonies or unison voices are sounding a little too loose or a little washed out, adjusting the Style Amount can really tighten them up to order or loosen them up even more. Play with it and let me know what you think.

Michael Angel Ambrosio

[Michael Angel]

Just to correct myself from a previous post, when it comes to guitar, the Reverb effect is shared with the lead vocal and harmonizer.

So, the only thing you can adjust relating to reverb under the GUITAR MIX menu is the Reverb Level. However, the Modulation Effects (Chorus, etc.) CAN be processed in the Guitar Mix section.

[Michael Angel]

Geckoland,

A while back you wrote about how frustrating it is using an Expression Pedal for adjusting Harmony Level. I like your foam pad fix! I have had the same problem. It really is frustrating to set up a nice mix between lead vocal and harmonies using the knobs only to have the harmony level jump back up to its maximum level each time you adjust the expression pedal!!!!!!

I have checked out your very impressive website and read about your set-up. I'm not sure if this could possibly work for you but I am experimenting with it and thought I'd run it by you.

I am currently trying various ways of integrating the VL4. One way that I was working with tonight was running the VL4 into my board with the Lead Vocal and Harmony Levels set to their maximum levels, which sounds great as long as I'm using proper gain structure all the way down the line. I then stepped all the way down on the Expression Pedal and of course get maximum harmony level. Then I set the minimum level on my expression pedal to the harmony level where I want the harmonies tucked in under the lead vocal and voila! I step up on my pedal and finally get the mix to match what I had previously been doing with the knobs.

Now that I think of it, if I recall, I believe you are already doing some sub-mixing of your Band in a Box live rig, perhaps this could workout for you after all.

PS. I also posted earlier seeking feedback on how to best integrate some of my gear with the VL4, if you can provide me with some input I sure would appreciate it. Thanks

[stevolives]

"The unison (U) voicing has no pitch correction – so if you hold a note that’s 10 cents flat, the unison voice will be flat as well. Note that this unison voice will still be decoupled from your lead vocal, and the type and amount of decoupling can be adjusted with the Voice Styles and Style Amount controls in the harmony row. So you have quite a bit of control over the type of voice doubling if you like to play with that sort of thing.

The corrected unison voice (UC) is not only decoupled according to the Voice Style, but is also lightly pitch corrected as well. Basically you’ll find that if you hold a note that’s a little flat or sharp, the UC voice will move to the correct pitch in a natural way. The actual pitch correction parameters used for this voice (and all the harmony voices) were chosen to keep the harmonies sounding natural."



So it sounds like if you have pc on, harmonies will be pitch corrected whether in U or UC, isn't UC redundant? From another post, it seems like UC is only different when PC is off, yet you use PC and get a weird kind of blend of 2 voices, one PC"ed and one not.

[whinersmusic]

Geckoland,

A while back you wrote about how frustrating it is using an Expression Pedal for adjusting Harmony Level. I like your foam pad fix! I have had the same problem. It really is frustrating to set up a nice mix between lead vocal and harmonies using the knobs only to have the harmony level jump back up to its maximum level each time you adjust the expression pedal!!!!!!
...
PS. I also posted earlier seeking feedback on how to best integrate some of my gear with the VL4, if you can provide me with some input I sure would appreciate it. Thanks

Actually, I think you may be referring to me re: the Band in a Box and the expression pedal. I did try the level knob as well on the pedal but there are times when I want no harmony at all. The pad is working out quite well as a solution for what I want.

I haven't updated the box page to show the new VL 4 with pictures inside it - plan to do that soon. I've got a show coming up in December where I'll be both acoustic and electric. The two guitars have different rigs and I want to use the VL 4 for both guitars. This has created an issue in that the acoustic uses a compressor to boost the level of my guitar and the electric doesn't like the level set for the acoustic.

I've worked in a splitter box with a separate feed to the VL 4 from the electric and this is working out well. More mixing to do at the board but the mixer is atop the box so it is right at my finger tips to adjust.

I note, as others say, the on-board effects of the VL 4 are not used when you have a rack of other effects. So, in my case the output of the guitar thru at the VL goes to my chain. In fact, I've kept this output dry and the other dirty stuff is for my second pick up which doesn't enter the VL at all. The electric therefore is also dry through the VL with it's dirty stuff going separate. I did try having the dirt go to the VL from the electric and, as expected, it was a disaster on the harmony! You really need that clean sound to keep the harmony tracking.

The nice thing about the VL 4 vs. the Helicon unit is that it is not as high up. The unit has fit perfectly atop my rack tuner in the box. All the cabling is behind of course routed to the right spots. Previously, I couldn't really see the tuner that well (had to back up quite a bit). Now it's nice and visible close up to the box as I play behind it.

I can see the VL setting by the way through a clear spot in the way I've mounted the mixer (inside mixer that is). When pictures show up, it will show what I mean.

So, as far as integrating the VL with other effects, it pretty well means just accepting the guitar thru is the only way to deal with the VL - you really can't get your effects in "pre" VL.

But, this hasn't been an issue to overcome. I believe that a mix of clean and dirty strengthens your tone. I've tried using effects minus a clean blend and they tend to be a little too much overall. So, I really believe keeping the clean to your VL, and then mixing the output from the VL with the output from the effects chain - that gives the sweet-spot sound!

Means, of course, having to split your signal to go to two places (split signal from guitar into two: one goes clean to VL-in + the other to effects for dirty = 2 outputs to go to your mixer). There are small blenders (LR BAGGS) available to give a two input and one output (stereo to mono) but I've found just going to a mixer is fine. I use a small ROLLS mixer for the electric and a larger ALTO for the Acoustic. In both cases, the mix level is fine for mono. The sound really is great on a stereo mix too.

Hope that helps and, if Geckoland is the intended person to which you want a response, I hope I didn't mix everyone up further.

Let me add all the info from everyone has helped me tweak the VL beast a lot. Just last night, I spent the whole evening working on pitch correction and the end result on the harmony sound has been amazing. I never thought I was so far off pitch but the harmony sure thought I was!!!! Anyway, adjustments in that area have really made the results of my singing better with the harmony - it is starting to sound like I'm working as a unit with the VL as my extra singer and that's cool and what it's all about.

Cheers,

[Michael Angel]

Keith,

My mistake. I mixed up Whinersmusic with Geckoland. I was indeed referring to your post about the expression pedal and referring to your website. Both you and Geckoland have posted tremendous info and I appreciate all the input and updates.

Look forward to checking out the pictures of the new set-up!

[geckoland]

Keith,

My mistake. I mixed up Whinersmusic with Geckoland. I was indeed referring to your post about the expression pedal and referring to your website. Both you and Geckoland have posted tremendous info and I appreciate all the input and updates.

Look forward to checking out the pictures of the new set-up!

I do as well Whinersmusic! I appreciate your site and the detail you give in your various setups. They have given me many ideas for my own rig. As far as the expression pedal goes, I agree that it is a little hard to use since you can't set the maximum volume easily. I haven't been using the expression pedal for controlling harmony level much though (I just use the Harmony on/off footswitch).

As far as hooking the VL4 up with other gear, I agree with your comment Michael

By the way, I so wish the VL4 had direct and separate dry vocal and harmony vocal output but it doesn't.

I hope someone from Digitech is listening! It would be REALLY nice if you could send the lead vocal out the 1/4" outputs and the harmonies out the XLR outputs! In this way, I could apply different reverb and delay effects to the harmony voices which I find really helps to separate them from the lead. The other advantage is that I could then mix the lead and harmonies right on the mixer which is up at my level so I wouldn't have to bend over.

As far as your particular setup goes Michael, I am no expert, but here is what I would do. First you have to decide what you are going to use for a Mic pre-amp. If the mic pre in your mixer is good enough, then you are all set. Otherwise you might want to consider a separate mic pre-amp. I will assume that you can use the mic-pre in the mixer. Here is how I would set things up

1. Mic in to a mixer channel with a mic pre-amp.
2. Use the insert on the channel to send the pre-amped mic signal to the dbx266XL compressor.
3. Send the signal from the dbx266XL compressor to the VL4 Line Input.
4. If you are happy with MONO VL4 output, then you can take the MONO out from the VL4 back into the Insert for the orginal channel where you plugged your MIC in.
5. If you want stereo VL4 output, then you will have to take the stereo output from the VL4 into a new stereo channel on your mixer (in this case, the original channel is just used for the mic-pre).
6. I would then use the MX400 reverb as an aux effect from the mixer.

I have not thought this through in detail, but off the top of my head I think that should work.

Geckoland

PS. As far as guitar effects go, I think Whinersmusic has it figured out. See his last post.

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Geckoland. I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

[andygaw]

What about for solo gigs with just me and an acoustic guitar? Is the 'digital' sound of the unit likely to be more obvious? I generally don't use a drum machine or backing tracks, just me and my acoustic.

u will probably sound like a langer with just guitar and voice it will b 2 false

[cmala]

What is a langer? Is that good or bad?

[andygaw]

im not allowed post a thread- dont know why- so my only way of getting on was using the reply button. my question is; when using the vibrato persona i find the effect kicks in a little 2 late for my liking when sustaining a note. is this delay adjustable? thanks

[andygaw]

u would have to be from ireland to know what a langer is.