DIGITECH VOCALIST LIVE 2 - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS AND VIDEO CLIPS!

[Anderton]

Here's another Pro Review that really lends itself to audio examples...

There was a lot of talk at the Winter 2007 NAMM show about DigiTech's demos of the Vocalist Live 2. In a nutshell, it provides harmonization (two harmonies) and effects in a small, floor/tabletop box. Click on the image below to get a better look at the overall box.

But what makes this more interesting than the average harmonization machine is that it has no presets. None. You don't need to enter a scale or tell it what harmony you want, either: That's all handled automatically. The Vocalist Live parses a guitar plugged into it, analyzes the chord being played, then generates an appropriate harmony. That's it. It's the kind of thing you don't really believe at first, but it really does work.

To see the Vocalist Live in action, click here then scroll down to DigiTech Vocalist Live 2 and Vocalist Live 4 videos. (http://www.harmony-central.com/theater/wnamm07_p2.html) There's a certain amount of "NAMM fiction" - the price has gone up, and obviously, they shipped a bit late, but the last part with the demo gets the point across.

As is usually the case with Pro Reviews, we'll start off with some photos so you can picture the box in your mind as we go through the various functions. And when we get into the audio examples...that will get really interesting.

[Anderton]

I'll get to the pictures in a minute, but I thought it might be good to bring an audio example into the review as soon as possible...I mean, the big deal about this thing is not just whether or not it works, but whether it actually sounds good - or does an Alvin & the Chipmunks thing.

The attached example was done in a couple minutes, it's nothing special (we'll do some more sophisticated examples, as well as show off the various effects it can do other than harmonization) but the thing to remember about this is it's a single voice, with no background tracks to obscure the sound of the harmonies. Surprisingly (at least to me!), even with falsetto, the harmonies tracked perfectly, and the timbre certainly doesn't sound robotic.

[Anderton]

We'll start off by describing what's available on the front panel, then get into the rear panel interfacing later on.

Like a vocoder, there are two inputs: One for the mic, one for the guitar (the guitar also has a thru so it can work its way through various effects, amps, etc.). Once the vocal gets into the box, you can do a variety of things to it...as you'll see if you click on the image. The VL2 is also a general vocal processor.

One thing to note is that the front panel is designed for simplicity. The UI is about as simple you can have and still result in a cool box. The VL2 is obviously designed primarily for live use (although it makes quite a recording accessory, to say the least), so it's as close to idiot proof as possible.

Going from left to right, the first knob up says Compressor. You turn up the knob for more compression, and turn down for less compression.

Then there's the Reverb effects block. You have three algorithms to choose among (Studio, Room, and Hall), and a Reverb knob that - you guessed it - adds more reverb when you turn it up, and less when you turn it down.

Next up is the Enhance effects block, which is basically three EQ presets with a knob providing the amount of effect. The final block, Harmony Mix, is where the heart of the VL2 lives. We go into this in some detail later on, but it's what lets you determine how many harmony lines you'll have, or whether you'll have unison (or a combination of the two).

Just above the knobs is a display with a tuner (we'll cover this in more depth later on, but the point is that your guitar needs to be in tune for the VL2 to parse the chords properly), as well as three LEDs to indicate vocal signal, guitar signal, and phantom power on/off.

The final front panel features are the two footswitches. One brings any effects in or out, the other brings the harmony lines in or out.

[Anderton]

Here's a shot of the back. There's an XLR Mic In, a Line In (in case you use your mic with a particular preamp), and Guitar In jack. Note the Guitar Thru jack to the right; this carries the straight guitar sound.

The input level control to the left affects only the mic or line input, not the guitar. This is because DigiTech makes some assumptions about the type of level it's going to see, and it wants to see a standard, full output level guitar. Incidentally, note the guitar Ground Lift, which can be helpful sometimes when you're trying to get rid of hum.

As to outputs, there's a mono XLR out which you can feed to whatever used to connect to your mic, or line outs for feeding a standard line level input. Also, note the Phantom Power switch toward the top. It's pretty noticeable, but it's still relatively easy to hit accidentally. Also, the physical switch position for on and off isn't that different. Fortunately, there's an LED to indicate when phantom power is enabled.

[Anderton]

One thing that's worth mentioning upfront is that although DigiTech talks constantly in terms of using the VL2 with guitar, when reviewing the VL2 for EQ magazine I tried several other signal sources (from organ to synth kalimba) and they worked just fine. I hope to explore this more as the Pro Review continues to find out just what does and does not work, but so far, the parsing seems pretty tolerant.

I suspect this may be a situation like some software manufacturers who say their products will work only with a particular OS but know it will work pretty well with other operating systems (e.g., something listed as being only for XP but still works on Windows 2K). To say it works with anything more than guitar might open a real can of worms ("Hey, I tried it with kazoo and it didn't work, you guys suck!") but I'd encourage anyone who has a VL2 to experiment with putting in sources other than guitar and seeing what happens.

[mikews99]

The attached example was done in a couple minutes, it's nothing special (we'll do some more sophisticated examples, as well as show off the various effects it can do other than harmonization) but the thing to remember about this is it's a single voice, with no background tracks to obscure the sound of the harmonies.
Dang! Pretty cool. Can this unit create female voice harmonies with male voice input or vice versa?

[Anderton]

Dang! Pretty cool. Can this unit create female voice harmonies with male voice input or vice versa?

It does not have a specific "gender bending" function like some other DigiTech units, although I do think there is a little formant shifting going on to add variety to the vocal sounds.

[cincy_cosmo]

My question about this box and LIVE 4, is:

How does it respond to less than optimal situations (that really happen) like:

Fret buzz?
A flat vocalist?
A vocalist who, well, sucks on a particular night?
A slightly out of tune guitar?

[Terry Allan Hall]

I'm going to order the Vocalist 2 very soon...even before thiis excellent review, I was VERY interested in checking one out, as I work solo a lot, but this just convinces me!

Gracias, Anderton! :thu:

[MDLMUSIC]

I currently use the Digitech Vocalist Performer and am really satisfied with the job it does. Unfortunately, the unit is about 10 years old and I fear its days are numbered.

I have been thinking about the VL2, but am a little leary about the matching-to-the-guitar-chord feature.

What happens if I'm singing and I stop playing the guitar to do some acapella harmonies? Does the VL2 continue with the same harmonies I had or drop to no harmonies? I'd heard that I could put a volume pedal on the guitar output after the VL2, so I could keep strumming chords to get the harmonies while dropping the guitar volume to zero, but that seems like a lot of fancy footwork to me.

Also, what happens if I play a two-note power chord, or a one note line? Will the VL2 try to come with harmonies for them? Or does it only react to three or more notes?

[Anderton]

My question about this box and LIVE 4, is:

How does it respond to less than optimal situations (that really happen) like:

Fret buzz?
A flat vocalist?
A vocalist who, well, sucks on a particular night?
A slightly out of tune guitar?

I will be getting into this. So far, the VL2 is much more tolerant than I had expected. The biggest problem is if the vocalist is off-key, because then the harmonies will be off-key as well...and three off-key voices is more of a problem than one :)

As to guitar tuning, it's not as critical as DigiTech would lead you to believe. For example, I've been cutting some audio examples this morning to post in the review, and busted the D string on my guitar. I tuned it up but as an experiment, didn't do any "touching up" and let it drift out a bit. It didn't seem to affect the harmonies.

I suspect the way the technology works (this is speculation, I don't really know) is that it has a bunch of filters that analyze the guitar input. If energy shows up in the C, E, and G bands, then it goes "Aha! A C Major!" and acts appropriately. Perhaps the filters are just broad enough so that if the string is a little bit off, it says "Well it's pretty darn close to an 'E,' so we'll assume that's what it is."

The biggest issue I've encountered is if I'm late hitting the chord that leads into a change, because then the harmony from the previous chord carries over. In one of the examples I recorded, I made that error but decided to leave it in so y'all could hear what it sounds like. In a way, it's actually not that bad; it's almost like on a guitar, where you slide up to the next note, and I didn't really consider it objectionable. But I can see where it could be if the preceding chord and the chord you're going to play next are not harmonically related.

One interesting aspect is that it's made me pay more attention to my singing and playing. I'm trying to be more "tonal" in my singing -- e.g., sustaining a held tone so the harmonies can ring out rather than glissing down at the end of a line -- and paying more attention to my timing.

I'll also be trying a studio experiment, namely, doing the chord changes in MIDI, driving a synth set to a guitar patch, and having the synth audio output drive the VL2 guitar input. I think that would have two advantages:

1. You could shift the MIDI track forward just a bit so you'd be guaranteed the chord would play just before you started singing, and...

2. You could concentrate solely on singing.

So far I've found there are plenty of synth sounds that can trigger the VL2 reliably.

[pjc]

lI'm curious as to how it'd handle two persons singing into the same mic.

[Anderton]

lI'm curious as to how it'd handle two persons singing into the same mic.

I don't have two heads to test this :), maybe I can get my daughter to help out. Bottom line, though, is I HIGHLY doubt it would work. The harmonization is designed around a monophonic voice.

If you wanted to harmonize two vocalists, I'd be 99.99999% sure you'd need two VL2s.

[Anderton]

What happens if I'm singing and I stop playing the guitar to do some acapella harmonies? Does the VL2 continue with the same harmonies I had or drop to no harmonies?

It stays with the last chord you played.

I'd heard that I could put a volume pedal on the guitar output after the VL2, so I could keep strumming chords to get the harmonies while dropping the guitar volume to zero, but that seems like a lot of fancy footwork to me.

That would certainly do the job, but note that you don't really have to keep strumming chords; strum a chord once, and the VL2 will remember it until changed.

Also, what happens if I play a two-note power chord, or a one note line? Will the VL2 try to come with harmonies for them? Or does it only react to three or more notes?

Great question! I'll find out. I just naturally strum the song chords in the background, it never occurred to me to just play, say, root and fifth.

[cincy_cosmo]

........I'll also be trying a studio experiment, namely, doing the chord changes in MIDI, driving a synth set to a guitar patch, and having the synth audio output drive the VL2 guitar input. I think that would have two advantages:

1. You could shift the MIDI track forward just a bit so you'd be guaranteed the chord would play just before you started singing, and...

2. You could concentrate solely on singing.

So far I've found there are plenty of synth sounds that can trigger the VL2 reliably.

Isn't that alot of work to emulate the older Vocalists products like the Vocal Workstation that took MIDI input to drive the harmonist? I guess it is a good experiment, but if that becomes the technique of choice then there may be better and cheaper solutions.

Thanks for looking into this, man!

[Anderton]

Isn't that alot of work to emulate the older Vocalists products like the Vocal Workstation that took MIDI input to drive the harmonist? I guess it is a good experiment, but if that becomes the technique of choice then there may be better and cheaper solutions.

Thanks for looking into this, man!

Well, yes and no...the thing is, the older Vocalist products don't do the chord recognition thing. So, if I had a choice between one or the other, given that I like to play live, I'd rather have a VL2 and jump through a few hoops in the studio compared to having a Vocalist and needing to jump through some major hoops live. And remember, in either case that MIDI input has to come from somewhere. I suppose you could play a keyboard in real time to provide the source, but not being a perfect keyboard player, I would probably opt to record the MIDI part anyway. At that point, there's not a whole lot of difference between plugging a MIDI cable into a Vocalist, and plugging a MIDI cable into a keyboard and then plugging an audio cable into the VL2.

But also bear in mind that the VL2 is very basic when it comes to processing. The Vocalists can do tricks like add vibrato and such, so there may be considerations other than the live/studio issue in terms of choosing one over the other.

[Anderton]

The chord recognition technology employed in the VL2 is called "musIQ," and was created by the company 3dB Research. It turns out they have a web site with some FAQs and additional information on the process, which actually answers many of the questions raised so far.

Click here (http://www.3dbresearch.com/FAQ_musIQ_Harmony.htm) for an FAQ about the musIQ process, including how it reacts to out of tune vocalists, a bit about how the process works (apparently it analyzes chords over time - I didn't know that), and the like.

Click here (http://www.3dbresearch.com/musiq_harmony_use.htm) for some basics about the approach 3dB Research has taken, and how employing it differs from standard vocal harmony processing techniques. It's more promotional than the FAQ, but is still of interest.

[cincy_cosmo]

The musIQ website seems to indicate that the device 'learns' a song...ie...it allows for a cappella harmonies.

How does this happen, do you rehearse a song and then store what it has learned or does it pick up information fromt he intro?

This is cool stuff. I wonder if musIQ/Digitech is working on applying their technology to pitch to MIDI conversion?

[Anderton]

The musIQ website seems to indicate that the device 'learns' a song...ie...it allows for a cappella harmonies.

How does this happen, do you rehearse a song and then store what it has learned or does it pick up information fromt he intro?

This is cool stuff. I wonder if musIQ/Digitech is working on applying their technology to pitch to MIDI conversion?

What it means by "learning" a song is that it has some sense of the key and tonality that it can use in otherwise ambiguous situations, not that it learns a chord progression per se.

[Anderton]

The compression effect is very useful, despite the fact that it only has one knob. Come to think of it, maybe it's useful because it has one knob! Just "goose it and go."

If you turn it up all the way, you will hear a little bit of pumping so I generally keep it up about 3/4 of the way, where it sounds ideal to my ears. But hey, just listen to the audio example...

[Anderton]

The reverb in the VL2 is considerably better than I expected in terms of the algorithms. Like the compression, you don't really have a lot of options: One knob for the amount of reverb, and three different algorithms. But also like the compression, this sure simplifies life, and the reverb algorithms hit the zone you want.

The image shows the reverb section from the front panel; note that you can also see the compression knob toward the left. The audio example plays voice through all three algorithms.

[Anderton]

Once more, the Enhance section follows the "simple is good" philosophy. This is basically EQ, with peaks that enhance the lower end, midrange, or treble.

When it comes to EQ, I'm kind of a stickler and yeah, I would have preferred high and low shelf with a parametric mid. That said, DigiTech has nonetheless chosen "sweet spots" that work pretty well with my voice, and I presume they would work well with other voices as well.

The best feature here is the Enhance knob, as it lets you dial in just how much peakiness you want.

The image shows the Enhance section, while the audio example (not surprisingly!) plays voice through the three different EQ settings.

[Anderton]

Here's an example using the harmony options but in context with a piece of music, to help atone for doing one a capella earlier :) This uses two harmony lines, one nominally a third above, the other a fifth above.

As you'll hear, the harmony slides in very naturally; it doesn't sound artificial or weird at all. The chord progression had a lot of minor substitutions for major chords to add interest, but the VL2 was able to follow along. I did mix the voice up higher to make the harmonies more obvious. If this were a final mix, I'd drop the voice back a bit to put the harmonies more in the background. That would give an even "smooth, less obvious" effect. But overall, I think you'll be impressed with what it does to the voice.

BTW, just to give you an idea of where we're heading with this Pro Review, I'll next be investigating the harmony options in depth as the VL2 can generate higher harmonies, lower harmonies, and unison effects. Then we'll check out what it's like to trigger the VL2 with something other than guitar.

And of course, feel free to ask any questions! And if anyone from DigiTech is monitoring this thread, you're certainly welcome to chime in as well. Remember, one of the best aspects of the Pro Review format is that everyone can interact.

[MDLMUSIC]

Craig,

Thanks for all the info on this new unit.

One more question. Looking at the pictures, it seems that the VL2 is a one-piece floor unit, meaning that it is controlled by stepping on footswitches. Does that mean that if I want to change the harmony parameters, for example, change it from a third and a fifth above to a third above and a fourth below, I'd need to bend down and hit some buttons on the unit?

This would be a definite turn off for me. I really don't want to do a live show where I'm constantly popping up and down on stage like a jack-in-the-box in between songs. One of the best things about my Vocalist Performer is that it is mounted on the mic stand right in front of me, but the harmonizing function is turned on and off via footswitch.

[RayR]

Hi-- I'm wondering if the Digitech will work when I tune my guitar a half-step back (G is an F#)? I had an old Vocalist Performer until it died-- I loved the simplicity of it. I've had a TC Helicon Voicelive for about a year now--it works great it's just that I'm doing way too much foot stomping instead of playing the songs when I'm picking songs on the fly. 70% of my tunes are back a half step so I hope the new Digitech can accomodate this! I'm REALLY looking forward to the simplicity of this product.

[Anderton]

Looking at the pictures, it seems that the VL2 is a one-piece floor unit, meaning that it is controlled by stepping on footswitches. Does that mean that if I want to change the harmony parameters, for example, change it from a third and a fifth above to a third above and a fourth below, I'd need to bend down and hit some buttons on the unit?

The two footswitches are for effects on/off and harmony on/off; I've attached an image of the footswitch. But remember that "changing harmony parameters" means something different with the VL2 compared to related devices. I'll be explaining the harmony options in detail soon, but remember that the VL2 determines the harmony based on your guitar playing, so the only changes in settings are whether you want to have two harmony lines or one, and whether the harmony lines are lower than your voice or higher. So the whole point is that one you've decided the kind of harmony line you want, you bring it in and out with the footswitch.

However, if you want to turn off a line or change it from higher to lower (or lower to higher), or change from harmony to unison mode, then you would need to bend down and make these changes at the unit itself. You would also need to do this if you wanted to change the EQ or Reverb algorithm, or vary the amount of any of the three effects.

[Anderton]

Hi-- I'm wondering if the Digitech will work when I tune my guitar a half-step back (G is an F#)?

This wouldn't be a problem as long as your guitar uses 440Hz as a reference. Which come to think of it, would be an issue if you're working in a context where A=440Hz is NOT the reference pitch...

You can do dropped tunings and such, the VL2 doesn't care where the notes come from as long as they're properly tuned to a reference.

[RayR]

Thanks-- so I'm good to go!

[Kramster]

Anyone try this thing with a voice of a female??

[Anderton]

Anyone try this thing with a voice of a female??

Excellent question! I don't have any pro female vocalists nearby...can anyone out there run a test?

[MDLMUSIC]

Craig,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Although the VL2 sounds like it is a great unit, the inability to change harmony parameters without bending down and hitting buttons seems to make it not very user friendly for live performances. Would there be any way to run external footswitches that could be on the floor and have the unit itself mounted at waist height (like on a mic stand), similar to my Vocalist Performer?

Also, does the VL2 have a bass setting where the original sung note is reproduced an octave lower? This is a great feature on the VP and I use it a lot. Sounds especially cool when I use it for the intro to Black Sabbath's "Iron Man".

[Anderton]

Although the VL2 sounds like it is a great unit, the inability to change harmony parameters without bending down and hitting buttons seems to make it not very user friendly for live performances. Would there be any way to run external footswitches that could be on the floor and have the unit itself mounted at waist height (like on a mic stand), similar to my Vocalist Performer?

I suggest you hold off for a bit and see what the DigiTech VL4 brings. As I recall from NAMM, it's more along the lines of what you want, although it's also more expensive...my take is that the VL2 is the "cheap and cheerful" box that everyone can afford, while the VL4 is for more advanced users.

Can someone from DigiTech chime in with some details on what to expect from the VL4?

[Kramster]

My local GC told me they have them on route and my name is on one... Maybe it'll make a singer outa me. And I have a couple woman lined up to try it.
Also the VL4 may have pitch correction (though not sure) which would beneifit many on an off night.

[RainsongDR1000]

Here's a question for ya. I run my acoustic guitar through an Aura. It has an XLR out that I run to the PA and also a 1/4" that I currently don't use. Can I just run a line form the 1/4" out to the Digitech and not have to run a line from the 1/4" out of the Digitech to the PA or would it be best to run a 1/4" out from the Aura and a 1/4" out to the PA and not use the XLR from the Aura? I'm just concerned with adding extra noise running both units in-line.
I have a Digitech VOcalist performer that my acoustic duo only use on a few songs because no matter how I program or change keys, it will invariably go to a wrong note sowewhere in the song. WOrks great on "Seven Bridges Road" because the whole song is 3rds and 5ths. FOrget it on "Suite Judy BLue Eyes". This new unit may be the ticket, although I may opt for the 4.
We are pretty good at singing in tune but you are right, if you are slightly off it is magnified 3 times. The pitch correction my come in handy, although the unit looks much more complicated for live gigging.

[unclenicksnacks]

Dang! Pretty cool. Can this unit create female voice harmonies with male voice input or vice versa?

The Vocalist Live 4 offers gender and grene based voices. Just select and play!

[unclenicksnacks]

Here's a question for ya. I run my acoustic guitar through an Aura. It has an XLR out that I run to the PA and also a 1/4" that I currently don't use. Can I just run a line form the 1/4" out to the Digitech and not have to run a line from the 1/4" out of the Digitech to the PA or would it be best to run a 1/4" out from the Aura and a 1/4" out to the PA and not use the XLR from the Aura? I'm just concerned with adding extra noise running both units in-line.
I have a Digitech VOcalist performer that my acoustic duo only use on a few songs because no matter how I program or change keys, it will invariably go to a wrong note sowewhere in the song. WOrks great on "Seven Bridges Road" because the whole song is 3rds and 5ths. FOrget it on "Suite Judy BLue Eyes". This new unit may be the ticket, although I may opt for the 4.
We are pretty good at singing in tune but you are right, if you are slightly off it is magnified 3 times. The pitch correction my come in handy, although the unit looks much more complicated for live gigging.
The VL2 will recognize your 1/4" input signal regardless if you pass the signal out. So if you like the XLR from your guitar direct to the board, cool. It is important though to check the guitar signal LED to make sure you are feeding something into the box and that you are properly tuned.

[unclenicksnacks]

My local GC told me they have them on route and my name is on one... Maybe it'll make a singer outa me. And I have a couple woman lined up to try it.
Also the VL4 may have pitch correction (though not sure) which would beneifit many on an off night.
I have found that the VL2 does make you work to become a better singer. The VL4 will also with it's pitch correction.

[unclenicksnacks]

I suggest you hold off for a bit and see what the DigiTech VL4 brings. As I recall from NAMM, it's more along the lines of what you want, although it's also more expensive...my take is that the VL2 is the "cheap and cheerful" box that everyone can afford, while the VL4 is for more advanced users.

Can someone from DigiTech chime in with some details on what to expect from the VL4?
The VL4 has more! Up to 4 parts of harmony, 50 users and 50 factory presets with up/down footswitches, pitch correction, gender and genre voices, more vocal effects, guitar effects, the musIQ chord recognition can be turned off for manual key changes, built-in mixer, stereo XLR and 1/4" outs, aux in, headphone out, and more....

[unclenicksnacks]

Craig,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Although the VL2 sounds like it is a great unit, the inability to change harmony parameters without bending down and hitting buttons seems to make it not very user friendly for live performances. Would there be any way to run external footswitches that could be on the floor and have the unit itself mounted at waist height (like on a mic stand), similar to my Vocalist Performer?

Also, does the VL2 have a bass setting where the original sung note is reproduced an octave lower? This is a great feature on the VP and I use it a lot. Sounds especially cool when I use it for the intro to Black Sabbath's "Iron Man".
The VL2 offers two additional voices, a 3rd above or below, 5th above or below, two unison choices. The VL4 offers this plus an octave above or below.

[GARY25302]

I got my Vocalist Live 2 today. After tuning to it, adjusting the levels and tweaking the compressor, reverb, and enhance settings I started playing songs. I played many chord melody arangements, sang and it found each interval perfectly. I started trying progressions and singing notes to see if I could fool it into choosing wrong notes. As long as I didnt get to far out it was right on. Once my chord voicing on a progression from C C/B A7/Bb A7 to G where I sang a D fooled it and it sang a Db over the G chord. I adjusted my voicing on the G chord and it picked the D (correct) note. The Digitech Vocalist Live 2 tracks very well and is much easier to use the original VHM5. I still use a couple of them on my recordings. You can hear an example on the song "Music Is My Life" on my myspace/garyingram. I will need to use the Vocalist Live 2 for a while to see how it will best fit into my live music. I don't want to overuse it just because it is so easy. No progamming, no midi, clean vocal tracking of my guitar. Quick, fun, plug in, play, sing, set your levels right and the Digitech Vocalist Live 2 is amazing.

[unclenicksnacks]

Craig,

Thanks for all the info on this new unit.

One more question. Looking at the pictures, it seems that the VL2 is a one-piece floor unit, meaning that it is controlled by stepping on footswitches. Does that mean that if I want to change the harmony parameters, for example, change it from a third and a fifth above to a third above and a fourth below, I'd need to bend down and hit some buttons on the unit?

This would be a definite turn off for me. I really don't want to do a live show where I'm constantly popping up and down on stage like a jack-in-the-box in between songs. One of the best things about my Vocalist Performer is that it is mounted on the mic stand right in front of me, but the harmonizing function is turned on and off via footswitch.

It sounds like the VL4 would be perfect for you. Just set your presets to the harmonies you like and step through them.

[Anderton]

Thanks "Unclenicksnacks" for representing DigiTech, as you can see sometimes we have questions that I can't really answer...like what the VL4 is all about.

If you have any cool tips, feel free to chime in with those as well.

[fuzzball]

How does it compare to the TC Helicon voice live?

[Anderton]

Well for starters, the VL2 determines the harmony based on your guitar playing...that's a pretty fundamental difference. I don't have the TC Helicon Voice Live available for comparison, but I believe the DigiTech unit is the only unit out there (aside from the upcoming VL4) with this "follow-the-guitar" technology.

[MDLMUSIC]

I'll be looking for a review of the VL4.

On a side note, does anybody know why Digitech seems to have made the decision to drop the Vocalist Performer. Everybody I talk to says it's a great unit (I agree), especially for the price. So why did they decide to stop making it?

[RainsongDR1000]

I'll be looking for a review of the VL4.

On a side note, does anybody know why Digitech seems to have made the decision to drop the Vocalist Performer. Everybody I talk to says it's a great unit (I agree), especially for the price. So why did they decide to stop making it?

I'd imagine because the VL2 outperforms it and it's the same price if i recall.

[quicksilver544]

Digitech acknowledgement of our very own Mr Anderton. Way to go Craig! I guess Digitech is reading this forum :thu:



Greetings from DigiTech.


DigiTech Vocalist Live 2 Now Shipping

We are proud to announce the shipping of the latest in vocal technology, the Vocalist Live 2, new from DigiTech and the world's only smart, multi-part vocal harmony processor for guitarists. It's so simple to use: Play, Sing and Harmonize.

Go to http://www.digitech.com/products/Vocalist_Live2/ to discover the Vocalist Live 2. Then go to an authorized DigiTech dealer and sing your heart out. Harmony has never been easier.

Also, be sure to check out the Harmony Central Pro review by Craig Anderton at:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1651409





DigiTech

[Davemon]

I must concur that the VL2 works great!! I play in a band with my twin sons and we have the 3 part harmony thing down.....problem is they're going off to college!!! I played last night at one of our regular venues with the folks that will be taking over when they leave for school. The new guys sing a little, but no where near what we usually have, so I used the vocalist, after having just received it and then testing it for about an hour.

I had comments from several of our regular fans that the new guys were doing a great job on the harmonies!!!! They didn't even realize the other guys weren't really singing much!!!!

The only thing I had to do was tweak the mic level on the VL2 so that my mic and the other guys mic could be set at about the same level on the mixer. Other than that I switched between using a third above and below for most songs to a third and a fifth above for some others. A killer box, easy setup and sounds great!!

[Anderton]

So I used the vocalist, after having just received it and then testing it for about an hour.

I think that says a lot right there :) I always recommend that people never use a new piece of gear in a mission-critical situation without extensive testing, but the VL2 is indeed pretty much plug and play. Glad you're enjoying it!

[Anderton]

I received a private email from one of the developers of the musIQ technology, and asked if I could quote it in the forum...he said yes, so here goes:

"GARY25302 makes a very interesting point that we’ve seen time and again during our beta trials. Users report that for the vast majority of the time, the chosen harmony note works well, but there are always going to be the odd case where you don’t get what you expect. The cool thing is that without ever telling anyone, we constantly saw guitar players simply adapt a chord or accentuate a note and then get exactly what they want, just as Gary did. We actually didn’t really anticipate this, but we found that guitar players were using their guitar as the user interface – something they understood very well!

"The most common example of this is when a singer may want the harmony to go to, say, a 7th when he is singing the 5th, but was not in the habit of playing the 7th chord. By simply adding the 7th he gets that as his harmony note. Guitar players figure this out pretty quickly – one of the easiest ways to get a specific note you are looking for in the harmony is to make sure it’s in the underlying chord."

[martind35]

I use a guitar style that is a modified "Nasville Tele" style that utilizes a flat pick and finger picks. This results in very little actual strumming and significant alternating bass with arpeggiated notes of the chord in a simulated finger picking style. My concern is, ... will the resulting harmonies be affected by the single note/double stop style of playing? Thanks

[m1westwood]

Hi - sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this question, and thanks so much for the review. After reading your review I was really even more motivated to go out and get either the VL live 2 or 4. However, when I went to look, it seems the price has gone up. Last month I thought they were quoted as 299 and 399 respectively, now they are 350 and 499! Maybe I got it wrong and they were originally 399 and 499 - but I don't think so.

Thanks,
Mike

[Ontariomedic]

Hey m1westwood,

No sir, you are absolutely correct. The price has gone up within the last week or so. My dealer tells me that in his opinion digiTech could have priced the VL1 and VL2 at twice their initial MSRP and they would still sell like hotcakes !!

It is my understanding that at this time, digiTech is the only company selling this type of voice harmonizer (chord recognition). Once other companies catches on to this breakthrough technology, competition will surely drive the price down.

I've had my VL4 on order since last month. Now they tell me not before Aug 20th. What is up with that !!

To all VL2 owners, please give us your honest opinion of your new unit.

[lhoard]

Wonder if the people who have the VL4 on order will still get them at the purchase price they were when the order was submitted?:)

[Ontariomedic]

THEY DARN WELL BETTER !!!

[Metrico]

Hey m1westwood,

To all VL2 owners, please give us your honest opinion of your new unit.

I've been following a thread of gigging musicians who were very skeptical about the VL-2 before receiving them but are now providing overwhelmingly positive reviews including gigging experiences with a bunch of different strumming styles. This is the most information I've seen from end users of the product.

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1266055944/m/6951098964

[Anderton]

I've been following a thread of gigging musicians who were very skeptical about the VL-2 before receiving them but are now providing overwhelmingly positive reviews including gigging experiences with a bunch of different strumming styles. This is the most information I've seen from end users of the product.

Thanks for the link. Of course, hearing is believing which is why I posted the audio examples...you might want to check those out and make up your own mind. There willl be additional audio examples, too.

I certainly agree with the guy in that thread who said that "DigiTech has hit a home run."

[fuzzball]

WOW this really gives me something to think about, I have been seriously considering the TC Helicon voice live unit....this may change my mind.

[Ontariomedic]

Does anyone know when (or if) DigTech will release a VL4 demo video ?

[GARY25302]

Playing in different spaces and using different microphones, guitars, amps and/or sound systems will require adjustment on the vocalist live 2. Adjust the guitar volume on the guitar. The mic settings on the vocalist live 2 are essential for getting the best sound. After experimenting using a Taylor T5 to trigger the Vocalist Live 2 into a Fender Acoustasonic JR DSP I have found the following settings sound best to me. Using a SM57 into the Digitech Vocalist Live 2 try starting with

Input --- 2 o clock
Compression --- 8 o clock
Reverb --- 10 o clock – Room Reverb Setting
Enhance --- 8 o clock – Resonance Setting
Harmony ---10 o clock – 3rd above and 5th above for most songs

Output guitar into channel 1 of Fender Acoustasonic DSP and use guitar effects on amp. The guitar is passed straight through unaffected by the Vocalist Live 2 settings.

Output the mic from the vocalist live 2 into channel 2 of Fender Acoustasonic with amp effects off.

On some songs I also use a video iPod into channel 2 with bass and drum parts I have previously recorded. I adjust the volume on the iPod to get the right balance between the vocalist live 2 voices, bass and drums and adjust guitar volume from the guitar. The amp has a separate volume control for setting the level to feed the amp into the PA.

I hope this helps you get set up and started with the Vocalist Live 2

[RainsongDR1000]

As of 6-18-07, this place is still honoring the old pricing. They say that they won't bill your credit card until the unit ships in August and you can cancel anytime. After seeing MF jumped $100, I bit the bullet and ordered a V4 today. Free shipping, too...

http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Digitech-Vocalist-Live-4-VOCALISTLIVE4.html

[gc24]

The Demo for the Live 4 has been made. They claim it will be out shortly. My guess is that they want people to buy the 2 first before they put out the demo.

[Kramster]

I just got mine a couple hours ago from GC..only one they got in...nice. It is so cool and fun.. might make a singer outa me. Played A Yamaha Silent Guitar and a (Turner) RS6 into a Roland Cube 30 and the vocals into a Schertler Unico with a Audix OM5 mic. Sounds awsome! Tracks so well, even when I am singing oh so quiet... very cool.
Hooked up a GEM RP7 keyboard...yes keyboard... (mono) and work well also...played a harmonica into the mic.... uhhh not so good (so far).
Tomorrow will try a Variax acoustic and some other guitars and keys and whatever else I have laying around... maybe even my tortiose..well maybe not.
Had a female friend of mine who is not really a singer sing a few simple words and Da's and sounded great... I like this thing a lot. Didn't read the directions yet.

[Anderton]

Some comments about pricing...I don't speak for DigiTech and I certainly don't want to offend anyone, but I feel I can speculate based on my knowledge of how other companies work.

Technology companies often underestimate how much time and resources it will take to get a product to market (this isn't just the MI industry; look at how long it took for Vista, or the next iteration of the Mac OS X that was promised to appear months ago, to hit the market). Prices and delivery dates are often based on projections that turn out to be inaccurate to some degree or another.

I very much doubt that DigiTech raised the price "just because they could." Any company knows that the lower the price, the more units they'll sell; I'm sure if DigiTech could sell the VL2 for $49.95 and make a profit, they would because then they'd sell a gazillion. I think it more likely that the R&D costs for the VL series were higher than projected (and a royalty has to be figured into the cost as well), so DigiTech raised the price in order to amortize the cost of the technology at the same rate they had hoped to originally. The good news, of course, is that once the R&D costs are amortized, prices tend to go down on next-generation products.

Again, let me emphasize I have no inside knowledge of what happens with DigiTech's price-setting process, but the above scenario is pretty typical for our industry.

[fuzzball]

Supply and demand also affect cost. If demand excedes expectations it is common to raise the price. This is common business practice and it could be the case here also.

[John Ellis]

I ordered one on Sunday and it will be here tomorrow.

About pricing. I looked last Friday at a particular vendor and the price was still at $299. When I ordered over the phone on Sunday it had gone up to $349

Still not a deal breaker for a good piece of equipment. However, I recieved their new Summer catalogue today and lo and behold, It's still listed at $299

[RayR]

I traded in my Helicon for the Digitech Vocalist 2 today! I have a solo gig on Friday so I hope it works ok! First impressions: The Good: 1.)Super easy to use! Step on when you want harmonies-- step on when you don't! I'm not foot dancing anymore! 2.) It came up with the right harmonies for a few roots/rock/celtic tunes that the Helicon had trouble with-- more with a drone vocal. 3.) Basic design really helps when you're in a rush-- especially the effects!
The not so good: 1.) The Helicon's voicings seem way more clear and human. 2.) The Helicon seems more roadworthy. 3.) I play a 12-string acoustic detuned a half-step and use a capo alot-- the Digitech accomodated me and the harmonies were bang on except for an F# bass note over a D chord. It (I) solved the problem when I hit the F# harder and played the D chord lighter. No big problem.

Verdict: I'll take the simplicity of the Digitech over the clarity of the Helicon in my situation. I can really concentrate on the songs, playing the guitar etc. rather than formatting the harmonizer for the next song. This is especially important to me because I play songs on the fly depending on who's there-- older, younger, requests, etc. No regrets.

[FUBTAG]

I have been following this thread for a while. It had peaked my curiosity and really interested in how well without 'programming' it works. Will it work in a "band" setting, such as splitting the signal from my Strat before the effects chain? In addition to playing solo, I am lead singer in a band with no other "singers"... I actually sing the harmony to whatever I teach them to sing! haha

I ordered the VL4 from Musician's Buy... I have ordered from them before and they area good bunch of guys. Here's lookin towards the August arrival date!

[RayR]

I forgot to mention that I had some problems with the Digitech tuner when using a capo on my detuned 12-string-- almost like it didn't "know" what note to tune to. I put a Boss chromatic tuner stomp box (a must for all 12-string players!) AFTER the Digitech (no pedals in between your guitar and the Digitech) and it worked fine . . . .

Fubtag-- I'm in a similar situation when I'm playing with my band. The Digitech will work as long as you place all effects and pedals after the processor otherwise the signal that the Digitech uses to produce harmonies will be jeopardized. So all stomp boxes, etc. are placed in between the "guitar through" and your amp. You can download the manual and it'll show some "common setup" diagrams . . . .

[fuzzball]

RayR, since you have had the Helicon unit you could help me out with some answers.

Was the Helicon hard to learn how to use?
How was the pitch correction?

[RayR]

Hey Fuzzball-- the Helicon was difficult for me to program at first; there's a definite learning curve and I'm definitely not a programming guru. Having said that, the Helicon is not an incredibly complicated machine and after spending, say, 20 minutes on it I would feel confident playing live with it (I'm saying this in hindsight, of course!). I had to get most of my info regarding settings on forums rather than through the manual. You basically have to start from scratch with the Helicon and build it up to the type of sound you're looking for-- this was pretty in depth because you have to deal with compression, song/scale formats, etc. etc. You also have to literally build each type of harmony setting. For example, I programmed 4 types of harmony settings: 3rd above, 5th above, CCRish, and CSN&Yish. You program EVERYTHING. I was guessing some of the time! I didn't use the pitch correction so I can't comment on that. Everything worked fine on the Helicon and it definitely is a much more substantial beast than the Digitech. I had some problems when I used a front-of-house soundman with a band-- all the effects I set had to be taken out in order to use the soundman's effects. It's a great machine and it's built to last but it was way too tedious and time-consuming for me-- I sure miss the sound quality though. I'm having way more fun with my music now that I have the Digitech-- I have the time to!

[Anderton]

The Digitech will work as long as you place all effects and pedals after the processor otherwise the signal that the Digitech uses to produce harmonies will be jeopardized.

That's true. Just plug the guitar into the VL2 guitar input, then treat the VL2's "Guitar Thru" jack as if it was your guitar's output. You also don't want to pull the volume down on your guitar too far; if volume swells are an important part of your act, place a volume pedal after the VL2's Guitar Thru output.

[fuzzball]

Good tips!

[lhoard]

I had a TC Helicon VoiceLive and used it about two years. Did a really good job but is is somewhat difficult to work. I've sold it and have thye VL4 on order from Musicians Friend.

[Johnny Z]

I wonder how it will work with Jazz chords. Lots of my songs are voiced with Jazz chords including Maj 7 and Dim 7 as well as 5th and Augumented. I notice with my Vocalist it kind of picks up traces of the chords and lead guitar parts through the mic and carries them into the mix, which is kind of a problem at times.

[RayR]

Hi JohnnyZ-- if you're talking about the Helicon then the bleed wouldn't be a problem because you can set gates for your microphone. I set mine for about 6 inches and no sound at all came through except my voice. I haven't had a bleed problem with the Digitech yet but I'm less of a finesse player and more of a thumper-- I probably wouldn't even know it! As far as the odd chords go-- I'm detuned and use a capo up to the 7th fret on one guitar; on the other I'm detuned to a DADAAD tuning-- there's some real oddball chords and the Digitech seems to do fairly well . . . is it the Digitech you're talking about?

[fuzzball]

Wow this new product is making it very hard for me to decide.

Does the TC helicon have a good support group that shares patch settings?

[RayR]

Yes-- they have an excellent forum dedicated to the Helicon: http://www.takeforum.com/tcheliconvoicel/index.php?mforum=tcheliconvoicel

This is where I got most of my info . . . the moderators are really helpful and supportive. As IHoard mentioned, the Helicon is a great product but it definitely isn't as easy to use as the Digitech. If you spend the time with it you'll get a superior sound than the Digitech, but you'll still be "foot-dancing" alot when live on stage.

[fuzzball]

Thanks I will check the forum out. I would rather have superior sound and have to work a little more. I don't think I will need it to be set too complicated. I would like a little auto tune and some simple harmonies and voice thickining.

[Anderton]

Regarding various product types...I think the main point to remember is that the name of the DigiTech product is the Vocalist Live 2. It's definitely optimized for the gigging musician, what with the ease of use and hassle-free operation. That doesn't mean you can't use it in the studio, of course, but if you want a complete vocal processing package you will need to pay some more and work some more.

[fuzzball]

Thanks, that was the way I was leaning. I want something I can use on gigs and in my studio.

[rattle_snake]

:cry:
I'm Sad, really sad....I'm Matthew from Italy and I had buy a Vocalist live 2 but when I put My microphone in "mic in" the vocal signal rest off....I try to up the level of the gain but useless....doesn't work, don't receive a signal.....WHY?? It's the second that I have...the first had same problem and when the shop had send me another new, again this problem....:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Anderton]

I wonder how it will work with Jazz chords. Lots of my songs are voiced with Jazz chords including Maj 7 and Dim 7 as well as 5th and Augumented.

I've thrown some pretty hefty voicings at it, and it doesn't glitch or produce "wrong" notes. Check out the demo from NAMM in the Theater, referenced earlier in this thread - the player is definitely going beyond major and minor.

[Anderton]

:cry:
I'm Sad, really sad....I'm Matthew from Italy and I had buy a Vocalist live 2 but when I put My microphone in "mic in" the vocal signal rest off....I try to up the level of the gain but useless....doesn't work, don't receive a signal.....WHY?? It's the second that I have...the first had same problem and when the shop had send me another new, again this problem....:cry: :cry: :cry:

If you had the same problem with different VL2s, then it's almost certain the problem relates to your setup, as so far, no one else has reported any reliability issues. You said the level is turned up, but does phantom power need to be on? Have you tried a real simple mic, like a Shure SM58? Have you tried a different mic cable? Are you sure the problem is with the mic going to the input rather than the output monitoring? My sense is that the problem is not with the VL2...

[fuzzball]

:cry:
I'm Sad, really sad....I'm Matthew from Italy and I had buy a Vocalist live 2 but when I put My microphone in "mic in" the vocal signal rest off....I try to up the level of the gain but useless....doesn't work, don't receive a signal.....WHY?? It's the second that I have...the first had same problem and when the shop had send me another new, again this problem....:cry: :cry: :cry:

Are you using a mic that requires phantom power? Does the Live 2 have phantom power?

You may want to try a different cable, and mic.:cool:

[Anderton]

Does the Live 2 have phantom power?

Yes, it does provide phantom power. Here's a shot of the rear panel; the phantom power button is in the upper left. An LED illuminates on the top panel when phantom power is enabled.

[rattle_snake]

Yes, it does provide phantom power. Here's a shot of the rear panel; the phantom power button is in the upper left. An LED illuminates on the top panel when phantom power is enabled.

Sorry...I don't use Phantom Power 'cause I have a Shure sh55 and this is dynamic...can you send me a photo or design for a correct setup??
this is my mail: rattle_snake@fastwebnet.it
:confused: :confused:

[rattle_snake]

...The truth is that I don't have a guitar now, I'm just a singer and I wanna use VL2 with my band and with my guitarist...now I had just tried to put my microphone in the Mic in and then "mono ou" to input of Pc...But the vocal signal is death!!!:eek:

[fuzzball]

Anyone? I have not used the unit so I am not much help here.

[Anderton]

This is a bit of a long-shot, but you can actually get no output from the VL-2 in one circumstance: if your harmony gain is set to full (this solos the harmonies) and your harmony footswitch is off, then of course nothing comes out because the lead is completely off.

[RayR]

Good thinking! I guess that's why you're the moderator, huh? Hey, I just did a soundcheck for an opening solo gig for Jack Semple and I used the Digitech-- they were BLOWN AWAY!! Jack couldn't believe I didn't have to press any keys or set scales! The harmonies sound really good through a big system! I'm pumped. Off to the gig!

[fuzzball]

This may bring some much needed competion on this type of item. Maybe we will see a decrease in prices!

[Anderton]

Good thinking! I guess that's why you're the moderator, huh?

Actually someone who wanted to remain anonymous suggested it in a private email, but I'll take credit for posting it :D

[rattle_snake]

I am not a scientist but this is my configuration and I thinks it's correct:
the microphone I have inserted in "Mic in", the guitar in "guitar in" then from "guitar thru" to the amplifier, finally "mono out" to the mixer for the voice

what is it wrong???

:freak:

[RayR]

Did you check the harmony level knob on the front as Anderton suggested? The only other thing you could check is that if you're from Italy you may have received a unit that uses a North American power source adapter(120?). In the manual it states which adapter you need to run the unit on a European current-- it should state the number on the black power adapter. Anderton, could this be a possibility?

[John Ellis]

Mine arrived on Thursday.

Awesome piece of equipment.

I loved the TC Helicon but this is just too easy.

I give it a 2 thumbs up. :thu: :thu:

[rattle_snake]

WELL!!! Now it works!!! :thu:

My Power was 5000 mA and not 1,3 A
Sorry...Now I can Sing with my chorus...

Why I don't think before....:idea:

[Anderton]

Another problem solved! Have fun with it.

I must say that this Pro Review is one of the most positive ones we've done so far, everyone seems to really "get" what the VL2 is about. Makes me salivate for the VL4 to see what that's going to do...

[RayR]

Right on! Rock on, Rattle snake!

[Lucky #9]

Read through all posts in the middle of the night, quite tired (and have not yet listened to any of the recorded samples) so I may have missed any comments on something similar, but:

As a solo, I sing and play guitar, but throw in bits and pieces of little guitar leads as I go along, sometimes still singing, sometimes not. The lead bits are runs off the chord sequence I'm playing --- say for example, C-Am-F-G --- , usually after the chord is strummed.

Would this foul the Vocalist up too much, causing me to tone down my normal style of performing, or would it be able to deal with it?

[RayR]

Lucky #9, you should be ok-- the Digitech does a good job remembering the root chord for your vocals. If you watch the video on Digitech's site then you'll get a better idea of what it can do-- I believe the guitar player is all over the map and the Digitech is keeping up . . . .

[tombeaudreau]

Hi

I was curious if any of you have had problems with the TUNER section of the VL2? I got mine yesterday, I brought it to band practice and put the other singers out of work! Yeah, I'm really impressed.
I'm having a problem when trying to tune my guitar through it. Yesterday, on the E and A strings were able to be tuned because DGBE did register on the tuners lights. Today, I tried again and only the E and B strings worked.

Does anybody know if I'm doing something wrong? Or could it be defective?

Thanks
Tom Beaudreau

[Ontariomedic]

Hi

I was curious if any of you have had problems with the TUNER section of the VL2? I got mine yesterday, I brought it to band practice and put the other singers out of work! Yeah, I'm really impressed.
I'm having a problem when trying to tune my guitar through it. Yesterday, on the E and A strings were able to be tuned because DGBE did register on the tuners lights. Today, I tried again and only the E and B strings worked.

Does anybody know if I'm doing something wrong? Or could it be defective?

Thanks
Tom Beaudreau

Hey Tom,

I bought one of those "IMT-500 INTELLI LCD TUNERS" and it does the same thing at times. Try tuning by way of harmonics on the 12th fret. Works everytime for me.

[RayR]

I have the same problem with the Digitech's tuner-- I used a Boss chromatic tuner stomp box ($120 Cnd) instead and it works much better.

[guitographer]

Hey all,

I had some questions pertaining to the VL 4 which I sent to Digitech. Below is the original message.

Product...
Voice Live 4

Message...
I've recently ordered a VL 4 and was wondering if it would be possible
to get a pdf file of the VL4 manual, then I could answer my own
questions. If this is not possible, then tell me if this box is capable
of 1, 2, 3 & 4 part harmonys? The Digtitech site only indicates 3 or 4.

What are the dimensions?
Is there a demo soundtrack available?
Will there be an option to go an octave up or down?
Can you adjust the EQ of the lead and harmony?
Can you mix the harmony types, that is female, male?
And finally, when will you begin shipping?


And the response from Bill Clayton of Digitech. . .

The VL4 will do 1,2,3,4,5 part harmony, you can go an octave up or down,
and set both male and female mixed in the harmonys with separate
enhancement settings (EQ) on both, it should ship at the end of August.

I would imagine he meant the fifth voice as the person singing. Although a few questions weren't addressed . . .you take what you can get.

[gc24]

Yea, and he mentioned to me that it also does pitch correction, scooping. There is no ETA for the demo on it yet.

[lhoard]

The last info I had was they were supposed to ship the 1st of August. Seems like they just keep moving the date ahead.:confused:

[Anderton]

Hi

I was curious if any of you have had problems with the TUNER section of the VL2? I got mine yesterday, I brought it to band practice and put the other singers out of work! Yeah, I'm really impressed.
I'm having a problem when trying to tune my guitar through it. Yesterday, on the E and A strings were able to be tuned because DGBE did register on the tuners lights. Today, I tried again and only the E and B strings worked.

Does anybody know if I'm doing something wrong? Or could it be defective?

The tuner likes your guitar up at full volume. Because activating the tuner mutes the output, this shouldn't be a problem...try it with the volume and tone on the guitar all the way up and see if the problem still occurs. The tuner's working fine at this end.

[mykad]

I usually shop at Musicians Friend, Guitar Center, and American Musical Supply simply because I can take advantage of 3 & 12-months no interest financing and with AMS the ez-payment plan. It's nice to be able to spread the payments over several months instead of dropping all of the cash at once or paying for the interest.

One user posted that MusiciansBuy.com has the Vocalist Live 2 and Vocalist Live 4 on sale for $299.95 and $399.95 respectively. In an effort to use my main sources of musical equipment I called AMS first and they filled out a request for price match and told me I'd hear something with-in 24 hours. I then called Musicians Friend and they approved the price match while I was waiting on the phone! So I'm getting the Vocalist Live 4 for $399.95 instead of $499.95!

I'm hoping the VL4 will really be available on August 20, 2007, but I won't get my hopes up since it has been delayed so many times.

Thanks to all who have shared their experiences, even after seeing the demo I was skeptical, but hearing from real people has made me confident in my choice to buy.

[Anderton]

Thanks to all who have shared their experiences, even after seeing the demo I was skeptical, but hearing from real people has made me confident in my choice to buy.

I know what you mean about being skeptical. You can't really appreciate the VL2 until you've actually used it and found that it really does do what's claimed. Although technically, it does MORE than what's claimed, like being able to work with synth sounds.

I am currently setting up the VL2 with my vocals for a gig I'm playing at a festival with bassist/bandleader Brian Hardgroove from Public Enemy. It's even more interesting when you have two vocalists, one using the VL2, the other not. The sound is huge and not even slightly artificial-sounding.

[gc24]

I've checked around and I don't find the VL4 for $399.00 anywhere. Where did you find that at?

[charbobs]

I am using a VoiceLive with it being driven by the output from the Keyboard player, but there are time when it is just me and the Guitar Player. From the reviews here it seems that the Digitech is doing a decent job. I have a Voicalist 4 on order but am still unsure of the harmony quality I will be getting compared to my VoiceLive. I am also just might get the HarmonyControl instead whenever that is released. But from what i am reading it appears this unit hold it's own
To use my Voicelive with out MIDI from the Keyboard is just not very fun, when you have to sing, play your instrument, change keys on the VoiceLive, and make any adjustments to whatever else you have to do. For those of you wonder what the VoiceLive sound like here is a song that was done and recorded Live. It is used in a (3) Piece band with the Guitar player singing the lead. I am using the VoiceLive using 2 harmony voices through the whole song providing the backup. The download is a little large but be patient also make sure to type in the (3) numbers at the buttom and hit submit. I hope this helps in comparing the two units. This song was recorded live at one of our band Gigs. Enjoy
http://bigfilehost.com/en/file/240/Josh-Ramses---Aint-to-Proud-to-Beg-wav.html

[fuzzball]

What is the HarmonyControl?

[charbobs]

HarmonyControl is a Devise that hooks up to VoiceLive, VoiceWorks etc that uses the same principal as the Digitech units. They convert the Guitar chords into MIDI so you can use them just like a Keboard MIDI output
Link: http://www.tc-helicon.com/default.asp?id=10503

[fuzzball]

Thanks I will have to check that out!

[jpettit]

Finally Digitech posted the manual for Vocalist Live 4. It was very helpful in understanding what is on the way.
What I learned from the Vocalist Live 4 manual:
1.The Dimensions: 8.25” Length x 14. 8” Width x 2.08” Height and wall wart power supply. This is important if you want to mount it in a pedal board.
2. System can be set up as Stereo of Mono ( useful when playing on a mono system and not having to change the mix of harmonies that have been panned.
3.Harmony

Harmony mix between harmonies can be controlled. There is not a harmony volume for each harmony.
There are 32 unique combinations of harmony voices.
Expression pedal can control overall mix of harmony (useful for fine tunng harmony mix live)
Harmonies can be set to momentary ( useful to just bring in harmonies on key phrases)
Harmonies are Unison with and without pitch correction, 3rd +/-, 5th +/-, and Octave + /-
The intervals are default but also are dependent on the guitar chord and input vocal pitch.
Lead Effect persona or pitch correction requires the use of a harmony voice. If all harmony voices are being used in the current preset, the least important harmony voice is automatically selected for this purpose.
musIQ has an alternate mode: This is an alternate musIQ mode that follows the melody note changes in the lead more than the main mode. (jazzier)

Harmony styles include:

varying delays relative to the lead vocal
vary slightly in pitch as well as timing
onset scoops.
Varying vibrato.
mix of the first four styles
Gender more feminine
Gender more masculine

There does not appear to be the ability to adjust this for each individual harmony part, but for the unique harmony combination.
4. Lead vocal
Tube preamp model, which provides mild distortion to give your vocals more warmth.
b. The Lead Effects modify the incoming vocal by changing its pitch or timbre in real time. There are Persona effects, which change the character of the voice. ( change size, gender, vibrato of lead singer)
c. Supports thickening with and without pitch correction
5. Pitch correction


Pitch correction can be set to chromatic so you do not have to tell it what key you are singing in. (Key parameter are not used, and there is no need to change the pitch correction scale between songs.)
PC Window rate and amount look similar to TC-Helicon
It does support full blown key and scale selections that seems to surpass TC-Helicon.

All in all from a specification perspective it met or surpassed my needs.
Can’t wait for August 20th.

[charbobs]

That all sounds fine, but how is the Harmony Voice Quality as compared to The Helicon. That is really what I am after. Ease of use is one thing but without Harmony Voice Quality you have gained nothing. I hope it does a great job I also have one on order.

[fuzzball]

Holy cow the Harmonly control looks like a great tool to add the the TC Helicon unit. I think this put the TC Helicon ahead in my opinion (unless cost is a major issue). I intend to use it live and in the studio so so far the TC Helicon seems to be what I am after based on the input on this thread. But I will keep an open mind.

[gc24]

What's everyone's opinion on the Shure Beta 87A versus say a Neuman KMS105 Mic? Is it worth the extra money for it?

[mykad]

I found it at MusiciansBuy.com. It was a link from another poster.

[mykad]

I found the VL4 for $399.95 at MusiciansBuy.com. It was a link from another poster in this forum topic.

[gc24]

I just spoke to them and they are going to sell it at $475.00, but they won't get that many to begin with as they have just now received alot of the 2.

[Chris Hayden]

I recieved my Digitech Vocalist Live 2 on Monday and I've been messing with it every night since. I have some observations that I would like to share on this unit. First of all, on the settings. There is a post earlier on this topic that had suggested settings, go back and print that, I've tried the settings in a number of different configurations and the ones posted earlier are actually the best combination. The only one that I had to set differently was the mic input knob on the back. I'm using a Shure SM58 and the unit really gooses the signal. That in fact is another observation I haven't seen pointed out here. The Digitech gooses up both your mic and your guitar signal. I expected it on the vocal mic but I was a little surprised on the guitar signal. I run the guitar out into a Line6 POD XT Live after the Digitech and even with the volume pedal all the way off signal still gets through. Something else that no one has touched on here is the unison settings. Unison 1 is not pitch corrected, while Unison 2 is, they sound good when used seperately, however the real beauty is running both Unisons at the same time. When you do this it cancels out the pitch correction, however it thickens up the vocal to a studio quality sound. The bummer is on this unit, and I sure that's why they built patches for the Vocalist 4, is that you can't really jump from having the nice thick dual Unisons running then kick to a harmony without bending down and punching the harmony buttons on and off, which we all know is totally impractical in a live situation. It puts you somewhat in a quandry because obviously you're not going to use harmonies on all songs, however it is tempting to use dual unison on all songs. It gives you such a nice thick sound that when you don't have it on you sound weaker! For ease of live use (which I haven't been able to do yet, next gig is next Saturday so I'll learn a lot that night) I believe I'll just leave the harmonies set and kick them on and off on the 18 or songs that I will use them on. Another word about the harmonies, they are "cut back" somewhat to not sound overpowering, much like a good studio recording, you know that they are there but they don't dominate the lead vocalist voice.

The effects are pegged very nicely and are easy to use to, however you don't need to add a lot of them in to get results so proceed with caution. And last, make sure you turn down your PA channel and your gain knob before you fire this up for the first time because thing really juices the signal. I had to turn down the input knob on the back of the unit and bring my usual gain structure way down to get within the proper signal ratio. Anyway, I hope this helps out. This thing is a blast.
Chris

[FogelbergFan]

will the device work with an acoustic that uses a mic rather than a pickup?

[Chris Hayden]

I haven't tried that, but I don't see why it wouldn't as long as you use a 1/4 plug.

[Anderton]

I'm using a Shure SM58 and the unit really gooses the signal. That in fact is another observation I haven't seen pointed out here. The Digitech gooses up both your mic and your guitar signal. I expected it on the vocal mic but I was a little surprised on the guitar signal. I run the guitar out into a Line6 POD XT Live after the Digitech and even with the volume pedal all the way off signal still gets through.

I used the VL2 with my new band, VL2, today (with Brian Hardgroove from Public Enemy on drums, and me playing Gibson's Digital Les Paul so I can pull out bass, lead, and rhythm sounds at the same time. And if anyone from DigiTech is listening, I'm using an RP250 as an octave divider on strings 4-6, and the GNX3000 on the magnetic pickup output. The sound is HUGE!).

Anyway, yes, the output is line level but this is typical for vocal processing units. The reason why is that these devices typically include a preamp to condition the weak mic signal, and it doesn't make sense to cut things back to mic level. I ran the VL2 out into a Bose L1 and just treated the VL2 out like a line level signal...works great.

BTW my wife was listening to us practice and said "Who is that singing?!?" Now, she's heard my voice plenty of times before, but the VL2 added quite a dimension to what I was doing, so much so that she wasn't sure it was really me. I used one high harmony and one unison. Using two of the high harmonies sounded too "sweet" for the very hard rock that we're playing, whereas harmony+unison was perfect.

As to guitar level, I'm a little confused about your post because with my setup, it was clear that the guitar thru is an exact replica of the guitar in. I didn't have to re-adjust any of my guitar effects settings when I inserted the VL2; it was exactly the same as when I plugged guitar straight in. Are you sure something else wasn't changed somewhere along the line?

[Anderton]

Maybe someone from DigiTech can answer this, but unless I was imagining things, it seems that a decently high mix of unison and harmony sounds allows getting more gain before feedback. I thought about this for a bit, and figured that maybe it's because the signal is different, therefore it's harder to set up a feedback loop...anyone else notice this?

The other thing I had noticed earlier but neglected to mention in this thread is that reaction to changes at the guitar is instantaneous, so if you start with the wrong chorc and correct it, the vocal will follow along. I found this out because there's this slight pause at the beginning of a verse where the guitar stops playing, but the key has changed. The VL2 keys in to the previous chord but as soon as I hit the next chord, the harmony locks right in. As the pause is so short, it's not really a problem.

I have to say, it's one thing to use the VL2 to "test it out" or cut a vocal track, and that's impressive enough. But it's another to use it in a band context, and hear how it fills out the sound...I'm actually even MORE impressed than when I started this thread.

[Chris Hayden]

[Criag wirtes:As to guitar level, I'm a little confused about your post because with my setup, it was clear that the guitar thru is an exact replica of the guitar in. I didn't have to re-adjust any of my guitar effects settings when I inserted the VL2; it was exactly the same as when I plugged guitar straight in. Are you sure something else wasn't changed somewhere along the line?[/QUOTE]

I set it up as directed, from guitar straight into the Digitech "guitar in thru" 1/4 jacks to my POD XT Live and then into my Traynor. I'm using a Parker Fly with Dimarzio pickups which run pretty hot on my wireless as well so maybe its just where the signal is originating from that is making the signal so strong as it goes throught the chain. Its not a big deal, however I have the main patch set up on my POD to act like an old tube amp by which the more volume you feed the more distortion (no so much louder as a break up of the signal like old small 50-60's tube amp, Love that sound!) so I'll have to find a middle ground.

One more comment on what Craig pointed out. I notice myself gravitating time an again to Unison 2 with High Harmony (3rd above) on most rock songs as well. We cover a few country tunes like Boot Scootin and Frends in Low Places and on those tunes the 3rd and 5th above sounds outstanding. I still haven't got to use mine yet in a gig situation (can't wait until next Saturday) but I bet its going to make a huge inprovment in our sound. Its so competitive for gigs in Southeast Michigan right now, that you need something that is going to set you apart from the crowd. Most of the cover bands here are pretty good players so I'm hoping to snare more gigs by the polish that this unit is gonna add to our vocals (and were already pretty good at them!)
Thanks for your further input, Craig.
Chris

[fuzzball]

Now I am reconsidering, man I am going to have to go and test this unit for myself at a local store. I want something easy to use, yet is good enough to use in a studio as well as for live applications.

[rodclement]

Hello all,

Just got mine and love it so far, very capable just like its predecessor, and much easier to use than the tc helicon unit, I returned that one.

I am not a tech guy and most of my musical history has been with bands that have sound guys to take care of technical stuff. Recently I joined an accoustic set-up and have been more involved in my on gear, I sing by the way, and don't play guitar.

My idea is to run the the rhythim guitar in my unit to get the correct harmonies, but, has anyone used this unit with vocals alone, with no instrument input? I have doing some accapela stuff and this thing sounds dam fine to me, unison and third up work great so far, and I am getting into more complex songs and taking notes on settings, but does anyone lese have any experience with what I am doing? Please share!

By the way I use either an EV 510 handheld condenser, or a Shure Beta 87a, depending on the venue, preferr the EV...run via the digitech unit and into the mixer. The pre-amp in the unit is very good, the compressor very usable, EQ is good enough for most applications, and harmonies are excellent. I love it so far.

Rod

[Chris Hayden]

I have done some acapella with the unit and also finger style and the VL2 responds real well to both situations. If you have your guitar player run through the unit and you sing through it will work just fine.

[rodclement]

I have done some acapella with the unit and also finger style and the VL2 responds real well to both situations. If you have your guitar player run through the unit and you sing through it will work just fine.

Thanks for the quick reply! I am so pumped up about this thing! Can't wait to gig with it on Wednesday! It took me days to get something decent out of the TC Helicon unit, minutes with this one! Simplicity in technology, beautiful!

Rod

[neuro-feed]

I picked one up today from GC and I've been playing with it for a couple of hours now. Overall I like the results, but I do feel it's a bit limited for live use and I think I'll wait it out to audition the Live 4. (I'm in a cover band and I foresee a lot of bending over to change settings). Also, I didn't notice it at first, but my Live 2 is labeled wrong! The 3 enhance buttons (resonance, clarify, and shine) all appear under the reverb knob/heading, while the Reverb buttons (studio, room, and hall) are under the Enhance knob/heading. It's no biggie and the unit works as it should, but I think I will return it for the correct layout cause it can get confusing. (or wait for the live 4).

[fuzzball]

So the unit does not have to have a guitar plugged in in order to use it? How does the pitch correction know what key to use then?

[Tom in Naples]

To start, I really want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially Craig. I read it for awhile and felt good about buying the VL2 because of you folks. I've had mine for almost a month now. I ordered it via the phone with Music123 prior to its release. I was very surprised when he immediately offered it to me for $275, took money off a dual 1/4" chord (for stereo vocals), and no shipping.

I play a weekly gig in SW Florida as a solo act with a recently purchased Variax 300 and Carvin PA equipment (8-channel, 1000w, stereo, and 3-way 12" speakers), Boss DR-5 drums, and the VL2. Last week I used the I-Key USB recorder - http://www.ikey-audio.com/ikey.htm - to record my gig so I was able to really hear how the VL2 performed.

The bartenders immediately knew something was up with the vocals and a couple people thought I bought some backing tracks. I said "no, this is live - watch this" and played the E-B-A... to "Nowhere Man" and they were floored. The A-Am section was great. I did "I Shall Be Released" and it was like singing with my old band except the VL2 matched me perfectly.

I'm really loving tapping on and off to get vocals on certain phrases. Heck, if you're really good with it, you could conceivably do "Twist & Shout" doing John singing lead and Paul & George with harmonies. When I did "Wildfire" by Michael Murphy, I sang "She ran and called him" and then tapped for "Wildfire" and it was also perfect for the G-G/F#-Em-A7-Dmaj7 progression.

Also, I pretty much stick to the first high harmony a 3rd above although the low harmony can work if your lead vocal isn't in the basement.

For me, as a solo act, this is about the best piece of gear I've ever purchased.

Thanks again!
Tom

ps - Craig, excuse my ignorance in here but are you the same guy who's Recording book I bought many years ago?

[neuro-feed]

Still fiddling with mine and discovered a "happy" accident. I was running my vocals and guitar through the VL2 into a TC Helicon VSM300 personal monitor and my amp. I had stopped singing and was noodling single notes on the guitar when I started hearing a barely audible guitar harmony. I couldn't figure out why until I realized that my mic (Beta87) was picking up the amp's bleed through. (I could see this being a potentially big problem if you play on a loud stage/loud volumes, so be careful or use a unidirectional mic?). But on a "practical(?)" level, you could use your mic to mic up your amp and get an instant guitar harmonizer or add voicings to your guitar chords! I played with it and it worked perfectly. Much easier to use than my Boss HR-2 too. With a mic splitter box you could conceivably run two mics to harmonize your voice as well as your guitar.

[Anderton]

So the unit does not have to have a guitar plugged in in order to use it? How does the pitch correction know what key to use then?

You have to feed it SOME kind of reference. As I've noted, it doesn't always have to be guitar, other instruments will work but obviously, it works best with guitar. But that doesn't mean you have to have the audience hear the guitar, of course. If you're doing an a capella part in C#, just play a C# at the beginning and don't worry about it.

One thing I found very interesting is I'm working on an arrangement with the band where I'm singing, but the dynamics come waaay down and I'm just playing a muted E note shifting to a G note (both on the sixth string) and back again to the E again, over and over. Yet the VL2 somehow managed to generate an accurate harmony with only this information. Granted, I was using only the high harmony, not trying to do two-part harmonies, but still...

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the unit has a sort of "memory" so that if you've been hitting it with E major after E major and then just hit an E, the unit assumes you want a harmony based on an E major.

[Anderton]

Craig, excuse my ignorance in here but are you the same guy who's Recording book I bought many years ago?

It's extremely likely :)

[youzzie]

Hello from Finland... very interesting product indeed, and a very useful thread here... I was just wondering, how would this system work with an acoustic nylon-stringed guitar that´s miked with an external mic? How to connect, I guess I shouldn´t just plug the "normal" mic to the guitar-in jack? And what about a condenser mic that requires phantom power?

[Tom in Naples]

I said "many years ago" and I just looked and it was "Home Recording for Musicians" it was way back in '78. Pretty sure I ordered it from an ad in Guitar Player. I still have that Teac 4-track reel-to-reel in my garage. All that bouncing back and forth and hiss but man, it produced a great sounding recording!

Sorry for the digression but your book was a great help and now this - thanks for sharing your knowledge!

[John Bartus]

I used the VL2 live in a solo gig context last night for the first time without ever plugging it in before. It is probably the easiest-to-use incredibly complex piece of technology I've ever used at a gig. It sounded great, and it really is as easy to use as everyone here says it is.

The onboard reverbs are useful and sound pretty good considering that they aren't the main focus of the unit (although the spokesman in the NAMM video said they were Lexicon algorithms, which might explain the quality of the sound). So far, I've shied away from the onboard compressor. It's also nice to have a reverb-kill footswitch right there, too.

I also noticed that it seemed to boost both my guitar and vocal level -- I expected the vocal to remain at a line level, but the guitar level surprised me. (I use a Fishman-equipped Breedlove through a Fishman Aura preamp into the board.) No big deal -- I just adjust the level and off I go.

I have a band gig tonight, and I'm debating on whether to use the VL2. My bandmates also sing, but I'm the only real singer among the three of us. And vocal harmonies are our weakest link. Do I risk offending the other guys by bringing in their vocal replacements? (And we all know how sensitive singing drummers are...)

Hmmm...

[fuzzball]

I say yes to replacing them....I plan on doing that also.

[Anderton]

I have a band gig tonight, and I'm debating on whether to use the VL2. My bandmates also sing, but I'm the only real singer among the three of us. And vocal harmonies are our weakest link. Do I risk offending the other guys by bringing in their vocal replacements? (And we all know how sensitive singing drummers are...)

Hmmm...

Use the VL2, turn down their mics, and tell them how great their harmonies sound :) BTW John -- great to see you online here again!

[John Bartus]

Craig,

Although I've semi-occasionally lurked, I'm back to being a full-time musician again. I'm out of politics now for the first time in nearly seven years, and I can't wait to get the studio up and running again. Four nights of gigs each week can't hurt either. Anyway, I'll be a little more regular around here.

Hmmm... neither you nor Bruce ever got down here for that stone crab lunch I promised years ago. Lobster season starts in a couple of weeks, and crab season won't be far behind. Drawn butter is available year-round.

Anyhow, good to be back!

[GlennGalen]

I thought they were shipping some in mid to late July, and I'd love to hear what people who got one are thinking.

[HKSblade1]

I'm getting one. our problem is not vocalists since they can sing. its timing and being near the damn mic/stage for their parts. wireless players and never near the mic when it needs to happen. I've asked and asked. now the vocals are going to be "punched in" :eek:

[gc24]

Earliest I heard was in early August by AMS, I think. GlenGalen: Very Nice Work!

[GlennGalen]

GlenGalen: Very Nice Work!

Thanks for letting me know you enjoyed my music.

:)

[FUBTAG]

I was going to say mid-august is the shipping date.. so we'll see. I am looking forward to gettin the Live-4. I am so looking forward to just being able to sing... I teach my other 'singer' to sing lead, and then I sing the harmony...

[gc24]

Amen to that.

[Chumly]

‘Shamefully’ the DigiTech Vocalist Live 2/4 does not have MIDI as if it did this would be more of a no brainier decision, however it does not have MIDI plus I already own three harmonizers:

DigiTech Vocalist VR
TC Helicon VoicePrism
TC Helicon VoiceWorks

I was pretty fired up about the new DigiTech Vocalist Live 2/4 but now TC Helicon has come out with the “HarmonyControl Guitar” to muddy the waters and confuse the issues somewhat, so I’ll try and put this into some perspective:

The TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar seems to provide the equivalent of pitch to MIDI plus a proprietary addressing of “Enhanced Scale Mode” for the VoiceWorksPlus, VoiceLive, and VoiceWorks. It’s not wholly clear what other proprietary “enhanced" modes there are for these three units, nor why the TC Helicon VoicePrism should seem to be excluded.

The TC Helicon Harmony Control Guitar itself does not take into account the pitch you are singing, and it may or may not have the equivalent of the "knowledge" algorithms in terms of chord progressions etc as claimed of DigiTech's musIQ.

I have had several email chats with the brains behind the musIQ and have been assured that if I was to use my guitar synth with my VoiceWorks I still would not get the functionality of the Digitech units in terms of voice-leading and related harmony accuracies due to the musIQ both using the vocal input and some sort of ‘intelligence’ to assess general chord patterns.

Here is what TC Helicon has to say about the HarmonyControl Guitar:

The HarmonyControl reads your guitar playing and tells your MIDI equipped harmony processor how to sing "the right stuff". If you've ever used Key and Scale harmony, you'll know it works wonderfully for a lot of songs, but now you can add even more harmony songs to your repertoire while you focus on playing and singing your best with HarmonyControl | Guitar. Previously, only MIDI keyboard players had the ability to create spontaneous harmony parts but now it lies in your hands too. HarmonyControl | Guitar is a big step forward for performing guitarists.

All you do is connect HarmonyControl between your guitar and pedal board or amp. Your pure guitar tone is unaffected; it's as if HarmonyControl wasn't there. A supplied high-quality MIDI cable connects to the harmony processor you've already set up as usual with mic and PA connections. As you play normally, HarmonyControl deciphers the chords in your music and sends it to your harmony processor through MIDI. It's working all the time so that when you lift the bypass on your processor, harmonies flow forth instantly.

Versatile
HarmonyControl is compatible with a wide variety of harmony processors by TC-Helicon and others. Of course, our VoiceWorksPlus, VoiceLive, and VoiceWorks have extended features that make the harmonies even more musical. If your harmony processor has a MIDI input, it's likely HarmonyControl can give you the effortless musical control you've always hoped for.

Features:
-Enhanced Scale Mode: Scale presets are enhanced because HarmonyControl constantly adjusts the scale to work with the chords you play.
-Guitar-controlled Chord Mode: Select a chord mode preset on any of these products and your guitar can supply the chords in real-time.
-Listen Key/Scale: Set the key from your guitar.
-Auto detect: connect the MIDI in and out with the supplied MIDI cable and TC-Helicon harmony products are automatically recognized so you get the enhanced features
-Guitar mute: allows guitar to control harmonies without being heard - great for a cappella sections
-Guitar Tuner: Easy to read note and pitch display keep your licks in tune
On/Off Button: Returns your harmony processor to its original function.

The question then becomes, at the least for those who already own one of the three TC Helicon units that it’s promised to have enhanced functionality with, does the Harmony Control Guitar provide the functional equivalence of DigiTech's musIQ or is the Harmony Control Guitar simply a knee jerk competitive response to DigiTech's superior product?

Given the Harmony Control Guitar approximate 50% lower cost over DigiTech Vocalist Live 2, plus the fact that it has MIDI, it would seem it could a very viable alternative to the DigiTech Vocalist Live 2 and perhaps even more so over the DigiTech Vocalist 4.

[youzzie]

Somebody please...:

I was just wondering, how would this system work with an acoustic nylon-stringed guitar that´s miked with an external mic? How to connect, I guess I shouldn´t just plug the "normal" mic to the guitar-in jack? And what about a condenser mic that requires phantom power?

[charbobs]

Well to compare the HarmonyControl that Helicon is coming out with, against the Digetch is not really a comparsion. The H/C unit takes info from the Guitar and puts it into MIDI for the Harmonizer to do its job, it is not a harmonizer. The pitch correction and Harmonies all come from the Harmonizer. The H/C unit is just an added tool for Harmonizers that have all the cool stuff on them. The real set back for me as you said is no MIDI on the Digitech. So if there is a software update or improvement with the Helicon product, you can download it right into your equipment. This is a huge plus for your equipment. That is not posible with the digitech. I suppose you would have to buy the newer version product. Not only will be able to use keyboard MIDI with the new H/C you can now add Guitar. We shall see how good this new product is this summer.

[Anderton]

I doubt that DigiTech plans any updates for the VL2 as it is designed to do a specific job and does it very well...I've yet to encounter any bugs or malfunctions, and if you need more functionality, then I suppose the VL4 is the answer to that.

As to MIDI, as I've mentioned I've fed the VL2 with synth audio and it's tracked as well as it does with guitar...I still don't quite understand why DigiTech keeps hammering on using it with guitar, although I suppose it is indeed optimized for guitar and maybe they're concerned about someone feeding in some off-the-wall synth patch, then coming here and posting that the VL2 doesn't work :)

[Anderton]

The TC Helicon Harmony Control Guitar itself does not take into account the pitch you are singing, and it may or may not have the equivalent of the "knowledge" algorithms in terms of chord progressions etc as claimed of DigiTech's musIQ.

After working with the unit as much as I have, I can only conclude there is some type of intelligence. What brought this home to me was playing a tune in E, where I strum chords in the verse. The harmony was of course spot on. But then there's a place in the song where the dynamics go way down, and I'm just hitting alternate E and G notes (not chords, notes). Yet the harmonies still came out okay, as if I was hitting a chord.

My guess is that the VL2 "remembered" that I was playing in the key of E, and when it didn't have multi-note data to go on, simply figured "okay, if he's playing only an E, he must be singing against an Emajor as every other time there's been an E it's associated with an Emajor." I could be wrong, but whatever they're doing, the VL2 has "covered" for me when just playing single notes.

I'm sure it would be possible to find a musical context that could confuse it, I just haven't found one yet.

[fuzzball]

I must say thank you this is a great topic and it is helping me make an informed decision.

[Chumly]

Anderton,
I recall you mentioning on this thread earlier that the VoiceLive 2/4 appears to make use of some sort of intelligence - predictive / interpretive / contextual, I’m not sure.

What I am most interested in is whether the new TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar follows in the same footsteps, or whether its intelligence stops at the concept of “Enhanced Scale Mode: Scale presets are enhanced because HarmonyControl constantly adjusts the scale to work with the chords you play.” What’s your guess?

I speculate that the TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar does not have an equal level of intelligence as it relates to predictive / interpretive / contextual, and I am certain the TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar cannot assess the vocal input in the manner claimed by the authors of musIQ, as the HarmonyControl Guitar does not accept a vocal input, and there is no 2 way MIDI data between the HarmonyControl Guitar and the three most supported TC Helicon units (VoiceWorksPlus, VoiceLive, and VoiceWorks). You see, if there was 2 way MIDI throughput, you could argue the vocal input could affect the HarmonyControl.

On the DigiTech units, any thoughts on how important the vocal input is in terms of harmony decisions relative to chord considerations (outside of the obvious & conventional responses)?

Do you know of any way to isolate the musIQ process so as to see how altering the vocal input changes its response (outside of the obvious & conventional responses)?

To clarify, I’ve been told by the musIQ designers via email that the vocal input plays a part in deciding the harmony output beyond what you would normally expect in more conventional harmonizers, but I can’t think of any to demonstrate in isolation how this would be true. Can you?

Charbobs,
Yup I’m well aware of what the TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar is, and yes you can indeed make comparisons in the context of the three most supported TC Helicon units (VoiceWorksPlus, VoiceLive, and VoiceWorks). This is exactly what I have done if you read my post carefully.

I do agree that no MIDI on the DigiTech Voice Live2/4 is a disappointment, and I also made mention of this in my post.

As to your views on using “keyboard MIDI with the new H/C” I am not certain that you can, do you know this for sure? If so, this might presumably allow the “Enhanced Scale Mode” as per the three most supported TC Helicon units (VoiceWorksPlus, VoiceLive, and VoiceWorks).

[charbobs]

What I meant to say was that the Harmonizers from Helicon will work both from the Keyboard and now with Guitar with the HarmonyControl Guitar that will be out shortly. I dont know at this point if the new H/C will work with a keyboard output. If so cool. I have a Vocalworks Plus and also a Keyboard player in the group so I am very fortune to not do a bunch of extra work with my Harmonizer due to the fact I can MIDI out of his Keyboard. I really love the harmony sound I am getting so I am going to stick with it. I am waiting for the H/C Guitar to be out, so I will be able to use either or in case one is missing.

[Anderton]

What I am most interested in is whether the new TC Helicon HarmonyControl Guitar follows in the same footsteps, or whether its intelligence stops at the concept of “Enhanced Scale Mode: Scale presets are enhanced because HarmonyControl constantly adjusts the scale to work with the chords you play.” What’s your guess?

I really have no idea. But I would guess that if they're using the same technology as musIQ, there will be a lawsuit :) Not that aren't ways to solve the problem without infringing per se, but all bets are off until you can place the two side by side.

To me, the VL2 is actually a very mysterious little box. I really don't know how it does what it does, but I DO know what effect it has on my voice!

[KrustyKlown]

On the VL2, the XLR and Line Level outputs are clearly described in the manual as carrying only the vocal signal. That is, the guitar signal only goes out on the "Guitar Thru" line and the other outputs are strictly the vocals. On the VL4, the manual doesn't specifically mention what the outputs carry, but in the "Common Setups" section it shows that both the XLRs and the Line Outs carry both the vocal and guitar signals. Can anyone verify that this is the case? Wouldn't that be a serious drawback to the VL4? I would certainly want to be able to have a pure vocal signal without it being mixed with the guitar. Maybe there's some way around that, but I can't figure out it out from reading the manual

[Chumly]

KrustyKlown,
Trust me, there is no way DigiTech would have such a signal path as the exclusive routing for the outputs, you’ll be able to assign them independently. Assuming you have interpreted the manual correctly (rather questionable!) that you can indeed mix them.

Anderton,
I’ve decided to buy the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 and keep the TC Helicon VoiceWorks for the following reason:

To the best of my knowledge the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 is unable to do really cool / wacky special vocal effects (such as have the vocal pitch micro-tonally controlled by my guitar synth) whereas the TC Helicon VoiceWorks is up to the challenge in that regard, however the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 would appear to be easier to have generate more accurate / convincing harmony notes in real time.

Now if the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 was rack mountable and had the MIDI implementation of the later TC Helicon units I would be blissed, but alas DigiTech not only put the thing on the floor but provided no MIDI access.

[guitographer]

KrustyKlown,

You know, I never even thought about it until I seen your post, one would only assume that the guitar could be separated from the vocals as with the VL2. As you stated, the VL4 manual shows on common setups that the guitar and vocal signals are sent to the mixer even when you utilize the guitar thru option (page 9). Like yourself, I can only assume this is indeed an error in the manual.

I would guess one of the main reasons of having the guitar signal included in the output mix would be to monitor the guitar, lead vocal and harmonys via the headphones. This would be great for individual practice, but would suck for studio or live performance if it could not be altered. It's hard to imagine that this is how the "better" model is designed, so I'm thinking it's a manual error or the only way you can eliminate the guitar from the mix is with the guitar mix knob on the top of the unit, regardless of how it's setup.

[youzzie]

Hey, was my question too stupid:freak:, or too difficult:rolleyes: to answer? Mr. Anderton?

I was just wondering, how would this system work with an acoustic nylon-stringed guitar that´s miked with an external mic? How to connect, I guess I shouldn´t just plug the "normal" mic to the guitar-in jack? And what about a condenser mic that requires phantom power?

[Chumly]

Apologies for being a bit off topic but this may be of interest to those already in possession of harmonizers (such as myself). I had a chat with TC Helicon about their upcoming HarmonyControl Guitar and it seems to confirm my speculation that it can’t be the equal of DigiTech’s VL2/4 musIQ in terms of intelligence.

Chumly: I have a Brian Moore i2.13 guitar and an Axon AX100SB guitar synth. Correct me if I am wrong but the TC Helicon HarmonyControl is the same as my guitar synth plugged into my TC Helicon VoiceWorks, right?

TC Helicon: Correct, except that the guitar synth provides the exact notes you are playing, whereas the HarmonyControl sends chord information.

Chumly: Correct me if I am wrong but the TC Helicon Harmony Control provides the same functionality as a keyboard transmitting MIDI into my TC Helicon VoiceWorks, right?

TC Helicon: Same as above.

Chumly: In both of the above cases I would think that MIDI chord harmony detection would be the most useful for live performance, right?

TC Helicon: In chord and scale mode it should be approx. equally useful in live situations.

Chumly: The TC Helicon Harmony Control cannot take into account the pitch of the voice because it does not have an audio input for voice, right?

TC Helicon: HarmonyControl only receives the guitar signal and transforms it into midi information.

Chumly: Can the TC Helicon Harmony Control take into account the context of the chord progression or is it limited to only the actual chord being played at the time?

TC Helicon: It is limited to the chord being played. However, the VoiceWorks will find the appropriate notes in chord mode

Chumly: And most importantly does the TC Helicon Harmony Control equal or surpass the “DigiTech Vocalist Live” with its “MusIQ” functionality?

TC Helicon: Whether it is equal to the Vocalist I cannot say. We of course believe that our product is great, and certainly more flexible than the solution offered by DigiTech.

Chumly: How much is the TC Helicon Harmony Control to sell for and when will it be shipped?

TC Helicon: It will be available in august and will have a MSRP of EUR 190 excl. VAT.

[charbobs]

Could somebody tell me if the Harmony quality of the digitech compares to the Helicon? Those of you own both would be of a great service here. Thanks

[KrustyKlown]

On the VL2, the XLR and Line Level outputs are clearly described in the manual as carrying only the vocal signal. That is, the guitar signal only goes out on the "Guitar Thru" line and the other outputs are strictly the vocals. On the VL4, the manual doesn't specifically mention what the outputs carry, but in the "Common Setups" section it shows that both the XLRs and the Line Outs carry both the vocal and guitar signals. Can anyone verify that this is the case? Wouldn't that be a serious drawback to the VL4? I would certainly want to be able to have a pure vocal signal without it being mixed with the guitar. Maybe there's some way around that, but I can't figure out it out from reading the manual

*****************
Thanks for the responses from the two of you that answered this. For Chumly, that thinks I can't read a manual, take a look yourself. Download them both from Digitech's site. If I turn out to be wrong, it's an error of ommission on their part - not my interpretation. I suspect they blew it in the manual. Guitographer's theory that they might force the vocal and guitar signals to coexist (be inseparable) for monitoring purposes seems implausible. There are other ways to get both signals to headphones without forcing them into one signal path in all the outputs. I'll wait for an actual user to answer this before I buy one. I can't live with mixed signal regardless of the other cool features.

[Chumly]

I recommend you ask DigiTech if you do not believe me that there is no way DigiTech would have such a signal path as the exclusive routing for the outputs and that you won't be able to assign them independently.

http://www.digitech.com/contact.htm

[charbobs]

Vocal Harmony FAQ



What is musIQ and how does it improve vocal harmony?

Our musIQ technology “listens” to what you are playing and is capable of understanding the structure of your music. This patent pending technology has been used to improve vocal harmonies in two ways. The musIQ note detection engine is able to analyze complex guitar waveforms in real time and determine what notes are being played, while the musIQ harmony engine is capable of interpreting this note data in parallel with the pitch of the singer to determine the most musically correct harmony note to sing. The end result is the easiest to use and most musically correct harmony generation ever. See Vocal Harmony Made Easy for more details.


Why was musIQ vocal harmony invented?

musIQ vocal harmony technology was originally invented to give guitar player/singers an easy way to get great sounding vocal harmonies. Sure, the sound quality of harmony processors has improved greatly over the years, but we still heard comments like these over and over again:

* "...it's too hard to figure out which scale / mode works with each song."
* "...some harmonies just don't work no matter what key or scale I choose..."
* "I don't know anything about MIDI and don't want to!"
* "...scalic harmony didn't work so I tried MIDI - now the harmonies sound blocky and unrealistic."
* "I don't want to learn to program and I can't tap-dance!"
* "...I don't want to worry about stepping through programs on stage - it interferes with my performance..."


With musIQ vocal harmony technology, you can get natural sounding, musically correct harmonies simply by singing and playing your guitar as you normally do. We believe that this technology will bring vocal harmony processing to a much wider audience.


So what exactly is wrong with the current generation of vocal harmony processors?

Lots of musicians have made great use of vocal harmony processors over the past few years, but we believe the number of musicians who can benefit from and enjoy this technology is much larger. The main reasons preventing this in current harmonizers with musIQ are:

1. The harmonies generated from MIDI note information (generally referred to as chordal mode or vocoder mode) are unsatisfactory because they tend to change pitch much less frequently than the input melody signal. As a work-around, it is sometimes possible to enter each harmony note individually, or else create a custom chord to match each input melody note, but these are both difficult, tedious, and often require extra interaction from the performer in order to step through the notes. Also, because the changes in the harmony notes are not triggered by the melody notes themselves (instead either a foot switch or MIDI sequencer is commonly used), the harmonies can sound unnatural and out of step with the melody line.

2. When key and scale information is entered prior to starting the song, the harmonies can then be generated in step with the melody line (this is often called scalic mode). However, because the chord structure of a wide range of songs does not follow a set of rules that can be predetermined, the harmonies produced by this method often contain notes which are not musically correct because they are dissonant with respect to the accompaniment notes in situations where dissonance is unpleasant, thus limiting the usefulness of the harmony processing.

3. The existing products are very difficult to use because they require musical information such as key, scale, scale-mode, etc. to be entered before harmonies can be generated (for scalic mode), or else they require each harmony note or corresponding chord for each harmony note to be entered manually and then triggered throughout the performance.


What happens to my harmony when I play chords like the two-note E5, a rootless chord, or chord inversions?

To answer this question, it is first important to understand that musIQ harmony is not generated by simply recognizing a chord and then using some sort of table look-up to find a harmony note. This type of approach would be extremely sensitive to power chords, rootless chords, and similar chord patterns. Our technology creates harmony lines by analyzing the current song over many time scales. At the longest time scale, the accompaniment and melody notes give rise to what is usually refered to as the "key and scale" of a song. At the shortest time scale, the current chord being played dominates. Between these two time scales you may find anything from several bars that go outside of the song's main mode, to entire choruses that are in a completely different mode. Because of the multi-timescale analysis, we can avoid having to rely only on the extremely localized note patterns (as is evident in the blocky sound typical of MIDI chordal mode in existing harmonizers). At the same time, we can avoid being fooled by localized mode changes - a common problem with scalic modes.


Will musIQ vocal harmony technology work for every song I play, no matter what strumming style or pattern I use?

For every song? Well...in a word...no! In order to generate the best harmonies possible, it is important to have a rich enough bed of information over which to create the harmony voicings. We have tested this technology over a wide range of playing styles and have found that the vast majority of styles work well. However some syles - for example those featuring extremely sparse strumming patterns - may not produce the harmonies you are after. But when compared with the huge number of songs that don't work with the existing harmony products, we think you'll be pretty happy with the overall robustness of musIQ harmony!

But this brings up an important point: the most interesting thing (and somewhat unexpected!) that came out of our extensive trials was how quickly players learned to make slight changes to their guitar playing to get the harmony sound they wanted for the few songs that didn't do what they expected. For example, one player wanted the harmony to go to a 7th, but realized that he was playing the major chord. Simply by switching to a 7th, he got the harmony he wanted. We saw this happen enough to realize that the player was learning to control the technology with his guitar - all in all a much better user interface that in the past since no new skill was required!


If I had a perfect MIDI guitar, would I be able to make a pre-musIQ harmony processors (with MIDI support) sound as good as musIQ vocal harmony?

No. The musIQ harmony engine was designed from the ground up to give the most natural sounding harmonies ever. There are several things that make musIQ vocal harmony technology superior to pre-musIQ harmony processors - better voice leading to avoid blocky sounding harmony and understanding the way guitar players strum just to name a couple.


If I sing off-key, will all the musIQ harmony voices be off-key as well?

Yes and No. If you sing slightly off-key, and the notes you are singing change rapdily, then the harmonies will be slightly off-key as well. However, as soon as you hold a note for a reasonable period of time, the harmony voice will quickly move to be in-tune. This helps you sing better because you hear the harmonies singing the correct notes. However, if you sing way off-key, then musIQ may get confused about what note you are intending to sing, and may pick the wrong harmony note.


What happens to the musIQ harmonies if I stop playing the guitar and sing a capella for a while?

In general musIQ harmony will work fine if you do this. musIQ will use the guitar chords you have been playing before your a capella section to make good harmony choices that will fit in with your song. If you want to have more control over the harmonies that are generated, then you can mute the guitar after the musIQ harmony engine and strum chords to direct the harmony voices.


Does musIQ harmony work with other instruments besides guitar?

Yes, but ... musIQ harmony was designed to work with guitar, both in terms of the note range, and guitar playing styles. However, if you use another instrument with the same note range as guitar, musIQ harmony will probably work fairly well, but this was not a design goal and it has not been tested very thoroughly.


Does musIQ harmony work if my guitar is slightly out of tune?

The musIQ guitar note detection works best if your guitar is tuned accurately to a scale based on a 440Hz reference. However, it is tolerant to your guitar being slightly out of tune so you don't have to worry excessively about this.


Does musIQ harmony work with non-standard tunings (e.g. Dropped D, Dropped C, DADGAD, strings tuned a semi-tone down etc.) ?

Yes. musIQ harmony works with any guitar tuning as long as it is based on a Chromatic (i.e. 12 note) equal-tempered scale with a 440 Hz reference. musIQ harmony does not support micro-tonal scales.


How does musIQ harmony respond to fret noise or other guitar playing artifacts that are not part of the song?

A lot of effort was put into modelling exactly how guitar players play so that fret noise and other unintentional artifacts would not cause poor harmony note choices. This process is not perfect so you will always get the best results if you play guitar cleanly, but you should find the harmony voice generation fairly tolerant of guitar playing artifacts.

[Merman]

I was just wondering, how would this system work with an acoustic nylon-stringed guitar that´s miked with an external mic? How to connect, I guess I shouldn´t just plug the "normal" mic to the guitar-in jack? And what about a condenser mic that requires phantom power?

A normal mic will be too low a level to be compatible with a guitar input. You'll need a mic preamp. If you have a mixer, run your mic into the mixer, take a send from there to the VL-2's Guitar input. Of course you'll need to make sure the mixer's output level is OK (watch the Guitar LED on the VL-2 while you play).

Your mixer (or preamp) will need to supply the phantom power.

MM.

[charbobs]

http://www.tc-helicon.com/Default.asp?Id=11734

[neuro-feed]

[QUOTE=Chumly;23270567]Apologies for being a bit off topic but this may be of interest to those already in possession of harmonizers (such as myself). I had a chat with TC Helicon about their upcoming HarmonyControl Guitar and it seems to confirm my speculation that it can’t be the equal of DigiTech’s VL2/4 musIQ in terms of intelligence.

This product has certainly perked my interest as well, as I'm debating whether to hold out for this or the VL4. Here are my questions:

Chumly, you mentioned having a Brian Moore iGuitar. I've got a Roland Ready Strat right now with a Godin LGXSA on the way. Could the Harmony Control be used in lieu of a hex/midi pickup, or is it strictly only for use with these Vocal Harmony units? It seems to me that even if you could only use it with one of vocal processors that you could at least pass the midi signal thru to another piece of gear (provided the vocal unit has midi out/thru) and control outboard midi gear. True?

"TC Helicon: It is limited to the chord being played. However, the VoiceWorks will find the appropriate notes in chord mode"

If you look at the new video demos for the VoiceWorks Plus on TC's site, you'll see that the singer is inputting chord progressions with his keyboard while singing. However, he's clearly singing beyond the chords he's playing, and the harmonies are keeping up. So I'm not sure what can and can't be done in the different modes.

"TC Helicon: It will be available in august and will have a MSRP of EUR 190 excl. VAT."

If you already have a TC unit, then this is certainly a worthwhile route to consider, but if you don't then this drives the cost of a TC vocal processor + Harmony Control up considerably caparatively to either of the Digitech VL2/VL4 units. Since the Harmony Control does appear to be backwards compatible with older TC and Digitech units, however, I'm wondering if it's worth it to find an older second hand vocal processor for use with the Harmony Control over buying these newer Digitech units. If the ease of use is nearly as good as the VL2 has been, I'd consider it because I do think that TC's processors surpass Digitech in terms of quality and realism.

[Anderton]

Hey, was my question too stupid:freak:, or too difficult:rolleyes: to answer? Mr. Anderton?

Neither...I don't have an acoustic nylon string guitar to test it! What I can tell you is that the guitar input is designed to accept the output of a standard electric guitar, and does not provide phantom power.

I think it's very likely you could make it work, but you would need to use a preamp and get a good, consistent signal from the guitar, then feed the preamp out to the VL2. But that's speculation...I think rather than miking it, a piezo-type contact mic would probably give a more consistent output. Then all you'd need to do is bring the level up.

DigiTech...has anyone tried this?

[Anderton]

I heard that DigiTech wants HC to do a Pro Review of the VL4, so I guess your questions will be answered soon enough :) I'm meeting with DigiTech here at NAMM to hammer out details, timing, etc.

It would be a separate review - not tacked on to the end of this one.

[Chumly]

- Could the Harmony Control be used in lieu of a hex/midi pickup,

Not precisely no as the output of the HarmonyControl is strictly MIDI chord data and it uses monophonic guitar audio as the sole input.

- or is it strictly only for use with these Vocal Harmony units?

Well you could use it for any MIDI device that would benefit from MIDI chord data.

- It seems to me that even if you could only use it with one of vocal processors that you could at least pass the midi signal thru to another piece of gear (provided the vocal unit has midi out/thru) and control outboard midi gear. True?

Yep see above but you could do so even without a MIDI thru using a MIDI splitter.

- If you look at the new video demos for the VoiceWorks Plus on TC's site, you'll see that the singer is inputting chord progressions with his keyboard while singing.

Well there is nothing new in that aspect that’s standard fare for most MIDI actuated vocal harmonizers of any brand.

- However, he's clearly singing beyond the chords he's playing, and the harmonies are keeping up. So I'm not sure what can and can't be done in the different modes.

Read up on the various mode of the TC Helicon units i.e. scalic chordal and direct control.

- If you already have a TC unit, then this is certainly a worthwhile route to consider, but if you don't then this drives the cost of a TC vocal processor + Harmony Control up considerably caparatively to either of the Digitech VL2/VL4 units.

No argument there you are correct!

- Since the Harmony Control does appear to be backwards compatible with older TC and Digitech units, however, I'm wondering if it's worth it to find an older second hand vocal processor for use with the Harmony Control over buying these newer Digitech units.

Not in my opinion nope, the HarmonyControl may make sense to me as I own three harmonizers already.

- If the ease of use is nearly as good as the VL2 has been, I'd consider it because I do think that TC's processors surpass Digitech in terms of quality and realism.

On this count, I can say that to date my TC Helicon VioceWorks sounds better than anything else I have tried, but I have not done an A/B against the new DigiTech VL2/4. As I discussed earlier, if the new DigiTech VL2/4 had MIDI I/O I would be blissed but it does not. Personally I think that is a big error on DigiTech’s part as if it had MIDI I/O it could control (or be controlled by) all sorts of devices!

I speculate that the HarmonyControl is as easy to use (for me as I have no issues with MIDI etc) as the DigiTech VL2/4 but I'll bet it’s simply not as intelligent. I back up my speculation with email communications from TC Helicon, DigiTech and dB, reading the manufacture’s specs and reading Anderton's posts.

[Chris Hayden]

I used my VL2 last Saturday at a gig for the first time and I thought I'd share some more thoughts on the unit. For background purposes, I play in a cover band that plays songs from the 60's up thru today. Mostly rock/pop songs but with a few popular country songs in there for good measure. I used the unit on about 20 of the 45 or songs we performed throughout the gig. I used the 3rd and 5th above for the country flavored stuff and just the 3rd above on the rock/pop tunes. The first thing that I noticed is that when I kicked the unit on for some choruses and if my other bandmates sang backups as well that it seemed over loaded with singers and worse, if the other guys were off (one of our guys usually is!) it sounded pretty bad. In reading some of the posts on here I have to laugh because some of you guys mentioned "replacing" some of the real singers with the box because of them being bad singers. If they are bad singers they will really stand out if you use the VL2 and they decide to sing as well. My band reharsed with the unit before our gig and I found there are certain songs that were better when only one other person sang with me, however some of the guys forgot during the gig and sang anyway, did it stink it up! Other than that, it was nice having a reverb unit that you could kick off when talking to the crowd etc. The compression (I had it on very lightly) and the EQ helped my mic sound the best its ever sounded to me. I was wondering though, what you guys are setting the harmony level at? I used it at around 8-9 o'clock in practice but at the gig I wasn't sure if it was coming over well enough but I didn't want to turn up the knob in case it sounded fine out front. (we play in pretty small places and just run the sound from the stage ourselves.) Anyway hope this helps you, and if anyone has anymore live tips that they have learned, please share them.
Thanks,
Chris

[gc24]

Yea, here's a tip. Don't let the other guys sing! LOL.

[sventvkg]

Yea, here's a tip. Don't let the other guys sing! LOL.

no, turn them off in the mains, leave them on in the monitors and the crowd will think you guys have really stepped it up vocally!....And the band members won't resent the machine that puts them out of a job vocally! :thu:

[horstay]

Has anyone of the lucky owners tried to play music (more then just a guitar only) thru the guitar in, if its also able to show the chords. I think drums, reverb and so on could irritate the algorithm. But if this would work ...
end of guessing -what chord could this be??-
Just a suggestion

[neuro-feed]

no, turn them off in the mains, leave them on in the monitors and the crowd will think you guys have really stepped it up vocally!....And the band members won't resent the machine that puts them out of a job vocally! :thu:

Well not quite. Unless the songs you are doing enable you to sing backing sections to your songs then you won't have a voice to trigger the harmonies. The problem I have with these units in general, and it's through no fault of their own, is that there are many songs you can't use it for if you've got separate background harmony parts going on while the lead vocal's doing something else. If you need to be singing separate lead parts while harmonies are going on, then you have no choice but to rely on one of your bad singers to trigger the harmonies.

[Chumly]

neuro-feed ,
You are not entirely correct that "you have no choice but to rely on one of your bad singers to trigger the harmonies" because the TC Helicon VoiceWorks has a hold function giving you some flexibility in terms of two separate parts in real time.

It’s one of a number of areas where the newest TC Helicon gear is actually superior to the newest Digitech gear. As I have discused I am keeping my TC Helicon VoiceWorks and buying a DigiTech VL4.

[jfwong]

So I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to stuff like this but I have a fairly simple question (or so I hope).

My more than experimental rock band consists of a vocalist, keyboards, bass, and drums - aka no guitar.

Now I'm really interested in buying the VL2/4 because I do stuff on the side with guitars, but I want to know the extent of the ability for the VL2/4 to work with an output from an electronic keyboard.

I know there's no midi-compatibility with the VL2/4 and the TC Helicon stuff seems to have it, but is there any way to add onto the VL2/4 with additional hardware to be able to use an electronic keyboard and create the same kind of harmonies? Some people have said they've had success with synths and the VL2/4, but I'm not sure if that's the same.

Thanks so much,
jw

[Chumly]

There are quite a number of things that you can do with the MIDI output from a keyboard that will not be possible with the VL 2/4 at all, on the other hand using a VL 2/4 with the audio from a keyboard may (well if it works well it should) give you better conventional results with traditional harmonies with less work.

If you want to be “experimental” then go for MIDI keyboard control with a TC Helicon unit and forget the VL 2/4.

[Tom in Naples]

If you're the lead vocalist and usually drive the harmonies, I would guess that, short of a 2nd VL2, you'd switch mics with another member so they could drive harmonies that are not in line with the lead vocal. "The Last Waltz" was on a few weeks ago and Robbie Robertson was harmonizing like crazy and I always thought his mic was off and it was just for show - I could be wrong. But is turning the bad singers' mics off and letting them fake it sort of like Milli Vanilli? I'm using the VL2 in a solo act and would probably consider doing the above in a band situation but I'd mix the real singers a lot lower instead of OFF. I remember seeing a duo of guitar and keys with backing midi tracks and noticing the guitarist wasn't playing the right chords. I walked around back and the keyboard player was just banging on the keys, not playing anything. So, basically, they were 2 vocalists pretending to be musicians.
As far as the Harmony setting, I think it suggests 11 o'clock but I'm closer to 1:30 or so.

[neuro-feed]

If you're the lead vocalist and usually drive the harmonies, I would guess that, short of a 2nd VL2, you'd switch mics with another member so they could drive harmonies that are not in line with the lead vocal.

I'm guessing you could get a mic splitter and have two mics feeding into one VL2 PROVIDED you're both not singing at the same time (and there's enough isolation that whomever's mic is not triggering the harmonies is not picking up unwanted stage noise). I've never seen a mic splitter that allows you to A/B the 2 mics, i.e. switching one on and turning the other off, though they may be out there.

As far as the Harmony setting, I think it suggests 11 o'clock but I'm closer to 1:30 or so.

I had mine up around noon and was playing along with it in the basement. To my surprise, my wife, who was listening through the floorboards, said that she thought the harmonies sounded robotic. I'm going to be using the VL2 live this Friday blended with my band, so I'm thinking I'll elave the level at around 11 o'clock to serve as more of a thickener for the backing vocalists we already have.

[orbm1]

This is my first time posting anything. but after reading all of them, I have to agree that this is a great processor. I am not that good of a singer (I have played guitar for 13 years, sing for 4 moths :)), but with this your confidence level will boost, I am the choir director at 2 churches, and I am getting a lot of compliments on the vocals. I even know a couple of musicians that have approached me asking: "who is doing the harmonies? he/she is pretty good!" I have not revealed my secret yet to them ;)....

One question That I have.... I read in the thread that the vl4 will have pitch correction??? is that true?, and possible? also, do you think I can get pitch correction with this one (vl2) with the unison?????? or should I just wait for the vl4????

another question, I play guitar (nylon strings with a fishman pickup) It works great with the vocalist but i do have to use almost full volume... now, for the other church i play the piano, baby grand, and i was wondering? do you think if i mic the piano and input the signal in the guitar input, would this works? any comments?????

Thanks in advance.

Omar

[mikesr1963]

:thu:

[jfwong]

This is my first time posting anything. but after reading all of them, I have to agree that this is a great processor. I am not that good of a singer (I have played guitar for 13 years, sing for 4 moths :)), but with this your confidence level will boost, I am the choir director at 2 churches, and I am getting a lot of compliments on the vocals. I even know a couple of musicians that have approached me asking: "who is doing the harmonies? he/she is pretty good!" I have not revealed my secret yet to them ;)....

One question That I have.... I read in the thread that the vl4 will have pitch correction??? is that true?, and possible? also, do you think I can get pitch correction with this one (vl2) with the unison?????? or should I just wait for the vl4????

another question, I play guitar (nylon strings with a fishman pickup) It works great with the vocalist but i do have to use almost full volume... now, for the other church i play the piano, baby grand, and i was wondering? do you think if i mic the piano and input the signal in the guitar input, would this works? any comments?????

Thanks in advance.

Omar

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't produce consistent results by mic-ing a piano and using that as the audio input. However from what I've gathered, it's more consistent (but still not perfect) when you use a direct audio signal from an electronic piano/keyboard.

When I e-mailed Digitech about it, they stated that "As for other instruments, [the vocalist] doesn't work consistently". Mic-ing a piano probably wouldn't produce soundwave patterns that the MusIQ could recognize.

[Anderton]

The VL4 does indeed include pitch correction.

[orbm1]

The VL4 does indeed include pitch correction.

now, do you think the pitch correction will be for the main vocal, harmonies or both? in real time?

Thanks again!

Omar

[Chumly]

When pitch correction for harmonizers is discussed the reference is to real time pitch correction for the inputted main voice. By default the harmonized parts almost always have the option of pitch correction.

However, don’t think that pitch correction on the main vocal is going to solve your problems of poor pitch accuracy, as it can make things worse by confusing you with you with two pitches:

1) internal pitch
1) you hear from the VL4

[FocusPlayer]

Partial Pitch correction is achieved in the Unison voice on the VL2 by using the chromatic unison. You are getting a chorus effect but the dbled voice is forced to stay on a solid “real” pitch… so even if your “A” is 446, your twin is 440 … and thus the blend is closer to in-tune than you were without the added voice.
I used my VL2 at a small live gig on Friday and loved it.

I'm new here - so I'm not sure about your polocy on linking to other sites - but -
should anyone wish to hear me doing a simple original song I wrote and recorded with the VL2, - I can drop a link to it here.

[FocusPlayer]

Working back thru the first 10 pages here.... WOW. What a great review and excellent follow up info. Thanks H.C. !

[donsimon76]

I though I was done buying stuff for a while! I am happy with my amps, I am happy with my guitars (and the one on the way), I am happy with my Fantom X8 keyboard! I stumbled in here and next thing I know is I'm buying a Blemished one off of zZounds.com for $279 and free shipping. I have been a choir person for the last 25 years, have played piano for 25 years, taught piano for the last 5 years and took up guitar about 5 years ago. I have had the itch to finally break out and do a little solo performing even if it is just a few stupid little gigs. This just seems like that extra little boost my performing needs to kick it up a notch. I should have it Thursday with serious time to try it out Friday afternoon. I can't wait!

[Miket156]

I only wish Digitech or SOMEBODY would come out with a small desktop harmonizer for KB players. A floor model doesn't do anything for KB players. I've been using the original Digitect Vocalist since 1993. I like having that unit on top of my main KB where I can mix real time, turn it on and off with a footswitch, as well as do manual program changes while I play along with my sequences. I looked at rack units, but there are too many variables in different rooms to rely on a rack unit that I might not be able to tweak or control on the fly like I do with the original vocalist.

When I first started using it, I use to provide the chords directly from my KB Live via a midi cable. That method limited my playing too much, so I went about recording chord changes on a midi channel to provide the chord changes to the unit. It is a MUCH better method than be stuck playing chords, especially as a solo act.

I think the newer units sound better than mine, less chipmunks running around inside. I have the harmony parts in a separate channel in my mixer and reduce the highs a bit compared to my lead voice, and it sounds better.

[lhoard]

I've had my VL4 on order from Musicians Friend since May 15th. I contacted them about shipment. They said Digitech told them the latter part of August they would be shipping. I contacted Digitech and they informed me no one has received any VL4's yet, but intend to start shipping the latter part of August. Just FYI.

[Chumly]

Miket156,

A rack mount TC Helicon VoiceWorks plus the Behringer FBC1010 foot controller will give you all the hands off flexibility you could need. Mind you (as I mentioned) I wish the VL4 was a rack-mount MIDI-able device. Hopefully at some point they will bring out a VL4 Pro. It seems to be a common marketing stratagem.

I am a guitar player and am buying the VL4 so hopefully it is smart enough to allow solos and other guitar-istic devices to not interfere with its sensing of chord structure. Apparently it is! I do a solo act too so in some sense am in the same boat.

I have not sent MIDI chord data to my harmonizer (via guitar synth or otherwise) but use the scalic mode (for better or worse) with MIDI patch change data as needed.

Or how about a MIDI control surface and the MIDI-able harmonizer of your choice? What I am saying is that you are not locked into your present system and can have small desktop access or floor access with rack or whatever pleases you.

As far as making the harmonized parts mix better, putting them farther back in the mix spatially with a larger 'verb sound combined with high pass filtering is the way to go, I can’t really agree that low pass filtering (as you use it) makes as much sense.

For me in your shoes, I would use low pass filtering more as a last resort than a tool of first choice and yep I had the same unit you own years ago, it was OK for its time.

FYI I would use band pass before low pass in terms of priorities.

[Ontariomedic]

Hey guys,

I wrote to Mark Cooper regarding the VL4 demo video that was supposed to be released a long time ago. For those who are not familiar with Coop, he is the same fellow who did the VL2 demo video for Digitech. Cut and copy the link below for his response. Once you enter the link, the previous page will show you the question.

http://www.coopdeville.com/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=47&func=view&id=115&catid=2&limit=6&limitstart=6

Sounds like alot of legal issues surrounding this amazing box.

Anyhow, I'm still anxiously waiting for my VL4 !!

[jfwong]

Since I didn't really get enough of an answer for my original question (I know, greedy aren't I?) I was hoping someone could post up an example of feeding their keyboard audion into the VL2 and harmonizing over it.

I'm seriously thinking of buying the VL4 because I do some guitar stuff on the side but I would mainly be using it currently just for keyboards and vocals - I'm just hoping that it works enough of the time for it to still be useful.

Examples / samples = my eternal love

[donsimon76]

I know that I will be trying it with my Roland Fantom X8 keyboard when it arrives tomorrow as well as with my guitars. I may be able to report on it tomorrow.

[jfwong]

I know that I will be trying it with my Roland Fantom X8 keyboard when it arrives tomorrow as well as with my guitars. I may be able to report on it tomorrow.

Great! :D

I'm definitely looking forward to the results!

[Chumly]

Could somebody tell me if the Harmony quality of the digitech compares to the Helicon? Those of you own both would be of a great service here. Thanks
I know I mentioned I’m buying the DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 (and I still may well) but I am have some second thoughts.

I tested it side by side against the TC helicon VoiceLive (I have the rack-mount TC Helicon VoiceWorks they basically share the same innards) using a Shure condenser headset, Gibson Les Paul, and AKG Headphones and I isolated just the pitch altered outputs.

There is no question that the TC helicon VoiceLive had a more realistic fuller timbre. The DigiTech sounded more Chipmunk-like / Darth Vader-like with a vague unfocused blurry-ness by comparison. The naked pitch altered sounds of the TC helicon VoiceLive were simply more dynamic and realistic and with greater clarity.

When I tried the two devices side by side again with the exact same setup and I used the full signal processing power of each unit, the TC helicon VoiceLive had much better effects, and an overall cleaner more transparent signal path.

In other words with the effects or without, the TC helicon VoiceLive made me feel much more like I was listening to professional backup singers in a proper studio environment as compared to the DigiTech Vocalist Live 2.

In fact although I did not bring it along for comparison it seemed the pitch change and formant processing in the new DigiTech Vocalist Live 2 is no better than that as found in my (old and discontinued) DigiTech Vocalist VR, which was IIRC, one of the last if not the last harmonizers made by DigiTech, prior to the DigiTech Vocalist Live 2 / 4.

Alas the TC units do not have musIQ. I must say really liked musIQ and it works very well indeed! Also it could be argued that in a live environ at least, with very careful setting up, the differences might be much less apparent than using headphones in a controlled environ........but certainly using a high quality condenser headset and equally good headphones the differences are readily apparent!

My conclusion would be that if you already have one of the newer TC units you might be better served with the TC HarmonyControl Guitar controller soon to be out in stores.

However if you are more budget minded or do not own of the newer TC units than the VL2 would certainly get you into the ballpark even if it does not hit a sonic home run like the newer TC units.

I have GAS!

[lhoard]

Musicians Friend scewed me. Cancelled my order after 90 days and said if I wanted to re-order it would cost me $499.95. A hundred bucks more than when I ordered it in May!

[donsimon76]

I got my VL2 today and got a chance to play around with the guitar for a little while. My first impressions are "wow"! I will have more time to check it out tomorrow since I am only working a 1/2 day. I will also try it with my keyboard tomorrow also.

[charbobs]

Chumly,
Thank You so much for the comparsion of the (2) Units. I am an owner of the Voiceworks Plus and the Harmonoies are just simply awesome. I also have a VL4 on order but I will now cancel it, with the new HarmonyControl Guitar just about to be released. I was wondering how the two stacked up.

I have a keyboard player in the band i am in, so I am using MIDI allready for all the chord harmony changes, and I am very excited with the harmony sounds I am getting.
I am glad that Digitech has out out a good product fot the money. However I also need quality to also be part of the package. Not to say that the VL2 does not have good sounding harmonies, I am sure it does.

However, I believe that it being user friendly and lower price are the biggest factor's in it's selling. But it comes down to sound for me. Thanks
Here is the link to a live show recording of me using my VoiceLive doing back-
ups with the guitar player. I now own the Voiceworks Model so I could put it in a rack.
It is somewhat large file so be patient, but you will get to hear what a VoiceLive sounds like . Link:

http://bigfilehost.com/en/file/240/Josh-Ramses---Aint-to-Proud-to-Beg-wav.html

[M-1 Fan]

I don't know if this was asked or not;

I'm a bass player in a band, currently using the Vocalist Performer on a mic stand. I'll take shipment of a Live 2 maybe today or tomorrow. Is it possible to plug my bass into the unit and get it to generate harmonies? If not, is it possible to set a microphone with a 1/4" output in front of the guitarist's amp and get the unit to produce harmonies for me?

[Anderton]

I don't know if this was asked or not;

I'm a bass player in a band, currently using the Vocalist Performer on a mic stand. I'll take shipment of a Live 2 maybe today or tomorrow. Is it possible to plug my bass into the unit and get it to generate harmonies? If not, is it possible to set a microphone with a 1/4" output in front of the guitarist's amp and get the unit to produce harmonies for me?

I was able to get the VL2 to work with synth bass, BUT it really needs chords to make decisions about what types of harmonies to add. So I wouldn't recommend bass as the "way to go."

As to guitar, the most reliable option would be to run the guitar into the VL2 and then take the "Guitar thru" from the VL2 into the amp. That way you'll have the VL2 working at its optimum.

[Anderton]

Hey everyone, thanks for the comparisons among various units, I'm sure people here find it helpful.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that the VL2 and VL4 are called "Vocalist Live" for a reason -- they're really optimized for small size, ease of use, etc. I agree that TC puts out great vocal products (I still use my VoicePrism!), but I've always thought of them more as "studio" devices.

Having now worked with the VL2 continuously during rehearsals with the band EV2, I can certainly say that for live use, the sound quality definitely cuts it. What sounds "artificial" to me is when I have both harmony lines going in hard rock songs, as the type of music we're doing generally doesn't have lush harmonies going in the background. The sound becomes more "realistic" when I use the high harmony and the other voice set to unison, as it thickens the existing vocal while adding the harmony. But the realism comes from how the box is applied more than how it sounds per se...if we ever do a ballad :), then maybe I'll bring both harmonies in and see how that works.

One of things I really like about the VoicePrism is how it can change the formants of your voice; I also like the built-in effects and gender-changing options. But in terms of playing out, the VL2 sound quality is fine, and the musIQ and portability definitely give it an edge for live performance. It'll be interesting to compare the VL2 to the VL4, it just might be that the VL2 is all I need but we'll see...I hate to admit it, but the idea of having pitch correction appeals to me for those times when the monitor system sucks!

[fuzzball]

"I hate to admit it, but the idea of having pitch correction appeals to me for those times when the monitor system sucks!"

I hate to agree....but I would have to agree with that statement.

[Robert Lunte]

Hello

I thought you guys should all know that TC-Helicon has just released the mose amazing pedals for singers ever manufactured...

www.tc-helicon.com

They are called "VoiceTone" and they are a new line of affordable, easy to use, pedals...

Create = The Efx pedal. You get: 99 presets, 2 banks, 10 performance modes (10 sounds at your feet) and can customize the presets as well. Create offers the same algorithms as the award winning VoiceLIve. It offers; Reverb, Thickening/Doubling, Delays and Tranducer (mega=phone) type effects.

Correct Pedal = Compression, Dess, EQ Shaping and Chromatic pitch correction.

Hold off on the Digitech stuff... TC-Helicon builds a much superior product and you get the world-class "TC" algorithms. You can read about them on TCH web site.

Hope this helps...


THE VOCALIST STUDIO
Robert J. Lunte I 425.444.5053
Teacher I Coach I Artist
ENDORSED I TC-HELICON Vocal Technologies
www.thevocaliststudio.com
http://www.bitwine.com/users/the_vocalist_studio
www.thevocaliststudio.com/bookalesson
www.voicecouncil.com : Join the Forum
robert@thevocaliststudio.com
www.skype.com : "rjlseagull"
:thu:

[fuzzball]

WOW thanks for sharing I am checking them out right now!:thu:

[thorny2]

Okay so I hope someone can answer my question about the vocalist live 2. Im considering buying one but I haven't heard anyone touch on this yet. I play in an acoustic trio. The lead vocals are shared between myself and the other guitarist. On the songs I sing he hits the 3rd above harmonies and vice versa. So my question is if I am running the vocalist live 2 and singing the 3rd above can I hit the harmony effect and will the vocalist live 2 pick the right harmonies above the one that I am singing? Now when I am singing the lead vocal and my partner is hitting the 3rd above ( we are very good at harmonies by the way so pitch is not a problem) I thought I could use only the 5th above and it would give us that elusive third harmony above ( sort of the Graham Nash part on Teach Your Children for example). Anybody????

[GlennGalen]

Create offers the same algorithms as the award winning VoiceLive.

Hold off on the Digitech stuff...



Why would we want to "hold off on the Digitech stuff?"
Can you go into the algorithms on the Create?
How are the chords recognized by the Create unit?
What sort of harmonies does it provide compared to the Digitech Vocalist Live 2 or 4?

[Terry Allan Hall]

Okay so I hope someone can answer my question about the vocalist live 2. Im considering buying one but I haven't heard anyone touch on this yet. I play in an acoustic trio. The lead vocals are shared between myself and the other guitarist. On the songs I sing he hits the 3rd above harmonies and vice versa. So my question is if I am running the vocalist live 2 and singing the 3rd above can I hit the harmony effect and will the vocalist live 2 pick the right harmonies above the one that I am singing? Now when I am singing the lead vocal and my partner is hitting the 3rd above ( we are very good at harmonies by the way so pitch is not a problem) I thought I could use only the 5th above and it would give us that elusive third harmony above ( sort of the Graham Nash part on Teach Your Children for example). Anybody????

Interesting question!

I've only had my Vocalist 2 since Monday, so I'm still learning what it'll do, and what it won't do, but if I understand what you're getting at, you want to sing the 3rd above your partner's lead and have the V2 add a 3rd above your note, so basically, you want to hear a 6th, also, above your partner's lead, right?

My daughter, Kat, and I were playing with mine Monday evening and I set it on 3rd and 5th above, sang the lead and Kat added the 6th, herself...this definitely works...next time she's over, we'll try it your way (assuming I understood your idea!) and get back to you...

I'm curious what could happen if you run the "guitar through" of one V2 into the guitar input of a 2nd unit, and control both from one guitar, yet still be miking two different voices (one voice to each V2)...might be able to cover 6 different vocal harmonies with 2 voices...

Or it might be dreadful... :idea:

Any thoughts, Craig?

[orbm1]

Hello

I thought you guys should all know that TC-Helicon has just released the mose amazing pedals for singers ever manufactured...

www.tc-helicon.com

They are called "VoiceTone" and they are a new line of affordable, easy to use, pedals...

Create = The Efx pedal. You get: 99 presets, 2 banks, 10 performance modes (10 sounds at your feet) and can customize the presets as well. Create offers the same algorithms as the award winning VoiceLIve. It offers; Reverb, Thickening/Doubling, Delays and Tranducer (mega=phone) type effects.

Correct Pedal = Compression, Dess, EQ Shaping and Chromatic pitch correction.

Hold off on the Digitech stuff... TC-Helicon builds a much superior product and you get the world-class "TC" algorithms. You can read about them on TCH web site.

Hope this helps...


THE VOCALIST STUDIO
Robert J. Lunte I 425.444.5053
Teacher I Coach I Artist
ENDORSED I TC-HELICON Vocal Technologies
www.thevocaliststudio.com
http://www.bitwine.com/users/the_vocalist_studio
www.thevocaliststudio.com/bookalesson
www.voicecouncil.com : Join the Forum
robert@thevocaliststudio.com
www.skype.com : "rjlseagull"
:thu:



Well, I checked the product you mentioned, voicetone, but it is not an harmonizer (well i think it is not:D).... the main reason I purchased the VL2 is because it is simple an affordable, even the vl4 looks like it is going to be fully loaded and even cheaper the voicelive.... I do not deny that the TcHelicon is a great company and have great quality, but for the price and ease to use, the digitech vl2 is the winner:thu:.... for me anyways!

Thanks:wave:

Omar

[MDLMUSIC]

Here's a question for those of you (like TAH) who are already using the VL2.

How much of a hassle is it to have to bend down to change the parameters of the harmonies? Say, for example, that in your first song, you want the harmonies to be a 3rd and a 5th above your sung notes, but in the next song, you want a harmony voice that is a 3rd under yours. I assume (from looking at the unit online) that the only way to do this is to bend over (if you're standing) or reach down (if you're sitting) and twist the knob that controls this.

I currently use the Digitech Vocalist Performer, and while it doesn't track to the guitar like the VL2 or VL4, one of the best features is that it's mounted right on my mic stand, so I can easily change from one of my presets to the next and then turn the harmonies on or off with a footswitch. I don't know if I really want to be bouncing up and down like a jack-in-the-box during live performances.

What do you think about replacing the harmony selection button with something larger that could be controlled by twisting my foot on it? Would I be able to see my selections or is the printing too small to be detected while standing (I'm six feet tall, so that's pretty far away for these 54 year old eyes).

I'd really like to upgrade, since my 10 year old VP will probably go belly-up any day now, but I don't want to spend upwards of $300 on something I can't really use.

[Chris Hayden]

You would have no other choice with VL2 but to bend down and change the settings. I think with the VL4 you have patches that are controllable with the foot switch so you wouldn't have to bend over to change. I've used the VL2now in about 4 shows and found that I leave it mostly at a 3rd above only. For some songs I use the 3rd and 5th above and I bunch those together on the set list so I don't have to bounce up and down between songs. Having said that, its not a big deal for me to change the harmony buttons because I usually bend down between every song to pick up my drink thats on the floor next to the unit anyway.

[cmala]

Has anyone posted any sound clips using the unison feature? I am wondering how the "thickening" sounds without the "in your face" harmonies. The harmonies are very cool but I agree that they should probably be used sparingly. Most of the sound clips I have heard have the harmonies really loud, probably intentionally in order to show off the feature.

I'm new at this so I may not know what I'm talking about but most of the commercial songs I hear have harmonies throughout most of the song but they are hard for me to detect. I have to really listen to hear it and it may not be harmonies at all but just doubling of the same vocals. I don't know.... :) I'm just looking for more sound clips.

Thanks
Craig

[Chris_James]

I had really been looking for an all-in-one vocal effects unit that I could control from the stage, precisely one that offered a VOCAL DOUBLER.....I have an effects mix that I use in the studio almost religiously (it's kind of becoming my 'own' sound - at least I think it is), and it is wrapped around this vocal doubling effect that I want to be able to use live.
Anyway, I don't have the cash for some of these rackmount effects, so I'm looking for something that won't break the bank.
I also sing in an acoustic trio, duo or solo, so when I saw that the Live 2 and 4 are primarily affordable vocal harmonizers WITH effects, well, I WANT ONE.
So now to my question - I'm not seeing a lot on the effects capabilities of these units, and from my understanding the Live 4 will have more than the Live 2, but does anyone know if either of these units has specifically a VOCAL DOUBLER effect?
If anyone could offer up a complete list of effects on both the Live 2 and Live 4, I would REALLY appreciate it.
:confused:

[Terry Allan Hall]

Here's a question for those of you (like TAH) who are already using the VL2.

How much of a hassle is it to have to bend down to change the parameters of the harmonies? Say, for example, that in your first song, you want the harmonies to be a 3rd and a 5th above your sung notes, but in the next song, you want a harmony voice that is a 3rd under yours. I assume (from looking at the unit online) that the only way to do this is to bend over (if you're standing) or reach down (if you're sitting) and twist the knob that controls this.

There is no knob to twist, other than the lead/harmony "mix" control...the hermony selectors are 2 rows of three on/off bottons the 1st row is (top to bottom) 3rd above, unison, 3rd below...2nd row is 5th above, unison, 5th below.

Most of the gigs I've used the V2 for have been "sit-down gigs", so i just reach down and set it, as needed.

I currently use the Digitech Vocalist Performer, and while it doesn't track to the guitar like the VL2 or VL4, one of the best features is that it's mounted right on my mic stand, so I can easily change from one of my presets to the next and then turn the harmonies on or off with a footswitch. I don't know if I really want to be bouncing up and down like a jack-in-the-box during live performances.

What do you think about replacing the harmony selection button with something larger that could be controlled by twisting my foot on it? Would I be able to see my selections or is the printing too small to be detected while standing (I'm six feet tall, so that's pretty far away for these 54 year old eyes).

I've been giving some thought to how I might be able to control the buttons (all 6 of em!) w/ the toe of my boot, so as to being able to change harmonies while playing a song...possibly glue a larger "cover" over each of the current buttons...

Each button has it's own LED, so seeing what your set-up is is very easy.

I'd really like to upgrade, since my 10 year old VP will probably go belly-up any day now, but I don't want to spend upwards of $300 on something I can't really use.

Other than that very minor niggle, I really like this unit, and have gotten a very positive response to it at every gig I've used it at, so far.

HTH. :)

[orbm1]

Here's a question for those of you (like TAH) who are already using the VL2.

How much of a hassle is it to have to bend down to change the parameters of the harmonies? Say, for example, that in your first song, you want the harmonies to be a 3rd and a 5th above your sung notes, but in the next song, you want a harmony voice that is a 3rd under yours. I assume (from looking at the unit online) that the only way to do this is to bend over (if you're standing) or reach down (if you're sitting) and twist the knob that controls this.

I currently use the Digitech Vocalist Performer, and while it doesn't track to the guitar like the VL2 or VL4, one of the best features is that it's mounted right on my mic stand, so I can easily change from one of my presets to the next and then turn the harmonies on or off with a footswitch. I don't know if I really want to be bouncing up and down like a jack-in-the-box during live performances.

What do you think about replacing the harmony selection button with something larger that could be controlled by twisting my foot on it? Would I be able to see my selections or is the printing too small to be detected while standing (I'm six feet tall, so that's pretty far away for these 54 year old eyes).

I'd really like to upgrade, since my 10 year old VP will probably go belly-up any day now, but I don't want to spend upwards of $300 on something I can't really use.


Hi,

I think it would be a good idea for you to wait for the VL4.

I am thinking about buying one when they become available. I love the vl2 but the presets and pitch correction... and do not have to bend down for any changes appeals to me :thu:....

Hope it helps!

Thanks :wave:

Omar

[cmala]

From looking at the manual (I don't have the unit) if all you wanted to change was the harmony between songs, you have two harmonies that you can define as
1st one: 3rd below, 5th below, unison
2nd one: 3rd above, 5th above, unison

These are changed by pressing the button corosponding to the selection so the most you would have to do between songs is press two buttons. That part looks pretty simple. Now, changing from unison in one part of a song to harmony in the chorus of the same song would be a little more difficult but like was mentioned earlier, I see the possibility of attaching some kind of "button extender" so that you can hit it with your foot. Probbaly would void the warranty though if you use super glue :)

This is assuming that the volume ratio of lead vocals to harmony vocals remains the same, and any effects you are using that are defined by the VL2 remain the same.


Craig

[orbm1]

From looking at the manual (I don't have the unit) if all you wanted to change was the harmony between songs, you have two harmonies that you can define as
1st one: 3rd below, 5th below, unison
2nd one: 3rd above, 5th above, unison

These are changed by pressing the button corosponding to the selection so the most you would have to do between songs is press two buttons. That part looks pretty simple. Now, changing from unison in one part of a song to harmony in the chorus of the same song would be a little more difficult but like was mentioned earlier, I see the possibility of attaching some kind of "button extender" so that you can hit it with your foot. Probbaly would void the warranty though if you use super glue :)

This is assuming that the volume ratio of lead vocals to harmony vocals remains the same, and any effects you are using that are defined by the VL2 remain the same.


Craig


If anybody can create a device like that...please let me know the specifacations! I would like that...then the VL2 would be perfect!!!!

Thanks :wave:

Omar

[jfwong]

I'm sick and tired of distributors not knowing a solid release date on the VL4. I'm even more pissed off that the official company can't even put a release date on the damn box when it's supposedly being released at the end of THIS MONTH.

Does anyone know a single insider that can give me and the rest of the world any insight as to when the VL4 will finally ship? I can't wait any longer without knowing when the end will be near.

[Anderton]

I just received a VL4 so I know it exists :) It will of course take a while longer to fill the pipeline of stores, this one was sent direct from the factory.

[orbm1]

I just received a VL4 so I know it exists :) It will of course take a while longer to fill the pipeline of stores, this one was sent direct from the factory.


If you do not have time, you can send it to me, i'll do a review!!!! :thu:

Just kidding...

hope to hear about it, are you starting a new thread?, or are you going to continue it with this thread?...

Thanks :wave:

Omar

[jfwong]

I just received a VL4 so I know it exists :) It will of course take a while longer to fill the pipeline of stores, this one was sent direct from the factory.

Thank goodness! Do you know if that means they just began shipping them to stores? Or was yours a pre-release "press" copy of the VL4?

Also, post impressions!!! I'd love to see a new megathread on the VL4, you write the best reviews :D

[Terry Allan Hall]

I'm guessing that the V4 I played was an advance or prototype, as it wasn't for sale at that time.

[KBiggZ]

Great resource here - read it all and am excited about picking one up.

I am a drummer - and would like to use this in a live situation. I realize I can take a signal from my guitarist or keyboard player and have it work like a champ - but I'm curious as to the quality of this without an input signal at all.

Surely someone has used this with just the mic and nothing else. What can I expect? Will it learn anything from the progression I'm singing, or will it just do straight 3rds or 5ths.

Thanks! I really am looking forward to a detailed response - I want to pick one up!

KB
www.onehandfree.com

[fuzzball]

I looked at the new TC helicon units, they seem nice but they do not have a Harmony unit that also has pitch correction (remember I am talking about the new units that just came out).

[Chumly]

I looked at the new TC helicon units, they seem nice but they do not have a Harmony unit that also has pitch correction (remember I am talking about the new units that just came out).Wrong, the VoiceWorks plus does and it’s new.

[Chumly]

Great resource here - read it all and am excited about picking one up.

I am a drummer - and would like to use this in a live situation. I realize I can take a signal from my guitarist or keyboard player and have it work like a champ - but I'm curious as to the quality of this without an input signal at all.

Surely someone has used this with just the mic and nothing else. What can I expect? Will it learn anything from the progression I'm singing, or will it just do straight 3rds or 5ths.

Thanks! I really am looking forward to a detailed response - I want to pick one up!

KB
www.onehandfree.comNope you cannot use it with only a vocal input, get a TC unit if you want it use it with just a vocal input.

[fuzzball]

Wrong, the VoiceWorks plus does and it’s new.

I was talking about their new floor units, not rack gear.:cool:

[geckoland]

Nope you cannot use it with only a vocal input, get a TC unit if you want it use it with just a vocal input.

Wrong, you can also buy the vocalist live 4, which, according to the manual, does have the option of using scales instead of the guitar input to drive the harmonies . Then you also have the option of using guitar input if you want.

geckoland

[bromo999]

when it's supposedly being released at the end of THIS MONTH.


I pre-purchased mine from ZZounds back in March, at that time the release date was being touted as May...

...then late June....
..then mid-August.....
.....

[Chumly]

Wrong, you can also buy the vocalist live 4, which, according to the manual, does have the option of using scales instead of the guitar input to drive the harmonies . Then you also have the option of using guitar input if you want.

geckolandWrong this thread is about the VL2. KBiggZ was asking about the VL2. You cannot use it with only a vocal input (well you can but it would not be overly successful). If you are going to refer to other units there are a number of other units that have scalic modes.

How do I know this? He asked “Surely someone has used this with just the mic and nothing else”. Well guess what geckoland, the VL4 is not out yet!

[jfwong]

Great, let's not start a flame war and act like adults. Wait it's the internet, screw that.

In any case, I'm still waiting on Anderton to post some new thoughts or reviews or pictures or anything from his supposed pre-release version of the VL4... because I'm dying to hear it.

[orbm1]

Great, let's not start a flame war and act like adults. Wait it's the internet, screw that.

In any case, I'm still waiting on Anderton to post some new thoughts or reviews or pictures or anything from his supposed pre-release version of the VL4... because I'm dying to hear it.

I agree...

I am looking forward to hear about the VL4!

Anderton, please let us know about it...... Pronto!!!!! :thu:

Thanks :wave:

Omar

[Ontariomedic]

Anderton,

Come on !!! ..... Please give us some info and audio clips of the VL4 !!


Anxiously waiting.

[Chris2007]

Hi, I have received the LV2 yesterday and immediately have tried it with my guitars...According to the setting instructions, the guitar LED should be green most of the time.....unfortunately none of my active piezzo guitars could reach the green light ( I own a Martin, soome acoustic from luthier). It was the same with the Gibson les Paul and an archtop Vega E-201 from mid 50th...the green almost permanent signal could Only be obtained with a Gibson ES-150 from 1954...does it means that I have to use this guitar only..?? Is there anyone who have experienced it with acoustic guitars....now I am a littler bit disappointed since the harmonies are based on guitar chords...some help for a belgian guy working in Italy would be greatly appreciated...please share your experiences in this field
grazie

Chris

[GlennGalen]

Chris2007,

Would some sort of active direct box boost your signal enough to get you a green?

Others may know more about this.

[FocusPlayer]

any singnal boosting device would work... as long as you don't OVERdrive it.

My variax works - but it's powered. My passive Switch electric works too, but I do have to have the volume way up on the guitar.

My Breedlove acoustic works great... but the acoustic guitar bleeds into my vocal mic and the unit tries to add harmony to it too <G>

Not a problem with my live sound mic( small tight glow) , just my studio Large Dia. Cond.

[FocusPlayer]

Oh, Not sure anyone mentioned this yet but....

Let's say you want to do the chorus from "7 Bridges Road" A Capella.

If you've got a mute or an A/B switch on the guitar POST VL2 .... you can switch off your guitar to the speakers but still feed the shords to the harmonizer... thus, strum ye 'ole 6-string.... sing the mellody , get the rest of the Eagles singing with you <G> , and no guitar in the house mix.

I have a whole song that was written as a 'round' (yes like row row row your boat) that works with a single strummed chord before I start singing. I don't use a looper so it's not a round anymore, but it is a percussion and Kalimba tribal beat thing A Capella 3 part harmony now.
I strum the guitar once hard, then mute it and put it on the stand.
The VL will keep the chord structure for as long as it stays turned on.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Hi, I have received the LV2 yesterday and immediately have tried it with my guitars...According to the setting instructions, the guitar LED should be green most of the time.....unfortunately none of my active piezzo guitars could reach the green light ( I own a Martin, soome acoustic from luthier). It was the same with the Gibson les Paul and an archtop Vega E-201 from mid 50th...the green almost permanent signal could Only be obtained with a Gibson ES-150 from 1954...does it means that I have to use this guitar only..?? Is there anyone who have experienced it with acoustic guitars....now I am a littler bit disappointed since the harmonies are based on guitar chords...some help for a belgian guy working in Italy would be greatly appreciated...please share your experiences in this field
grazie

Chris
Chris2007,

Would some sort of active direct box boost your signal enough to get you a green?

Others may know more about this.

I plug my passive UST-equipted Guild or Taylor into my V2 w/o going into a pre-amp 1st and it works fine into my Crate Taxi (mini-PA)...when I plug into my regular PA, I go thusly: guitar -> V2's guitar input -> V2's guitar thru -> Baggs PADI -> PA.

No green light, but the guitars sounds great. No green light when I tried my Tele, either, but still everything sounds fine.

[Anderton]

Regarding using only mic: The only way it will work at all is if you play a chord into it first, and then the unit will remember that chord. But this makes sense only if you're playing a song that requires no chord changes :) So unless you set consists of "Land of a 1000 Dances," I wouldn't recommend it!

Regarding acoustic guitar: The VL2 expects the kind of levels generated by an electric guitar. Adding a preamp or anything else capable of boosting gain should help out. But in my experience, the VL2 tolerates a wide range of input signals. Before you go to the trouble of adding the preamp, check to see if you're getting consistent results - you might not need the pre, regardless of what the LEDs say.

Regarding the VL4: That will need to be a separate Pro Review as it's quite different from the VL2...I don't want to muddy the waters in this thread, which is about the VL2. I will be away most of next week doing a video shoot so I don't want to start anything and then have to stop in the middle of it.

Re TC Helicon: I had mentioned earlier that I always thought of TC Helicon units as being more for the studio, because that's how I've always used them in the past. However, I wasn't thinking about the VoiceLive, because I've never played with one :) but when I was going over HC videos, was reminded of it. It doesn't do the "track-the-guitar-chords" thing the VL2 does, but it definitely is intended specifically for live use.

[Chumly]

Storage, I had no trouble getting the green LED to trigger when I tested the VL2 in the music store with a new Les Paul Standard straight into the VL2. This is purely speculative mind you, but DigiTech may have not calibrated the signal strength LED the same on some of the early units.

BTW the TC Helicon VoiceLive and the TC Helicon VoiceWorks share essentially the same architecture.

[Anderton]

Hey Chris...you do have volume all the way up on the guitar, right? It makes sense to me that an acoustic guitar might not drive it to full strength, but surely a standard Les Paul would do the job.

I think the speculation about calibration being off on the initial units is bogus, I have one of the very first ones and all the level indicators act exactly as expected/described in the manual.

[Chumly]

“Purely” means free of empirical elements and “speculative” means theoretical. I said it was “purely speculative” not “speculation” there is a difference.

Nevertheless Chris2007 says his Les Paul can't "reach the green light", whereas as discussed above, when I tried it with a new Les Paul Standard I could get it to do so easily. Of course there are many more plausible (less purely speculative) reasons why Chris2007's Les Paul cannot make the green LED engage with regularity, not the least of which might be lower PU output.

He also goes on to say the his active acoustics can't "reach the green light", so your suggestion that the Les Paul volume pot is the culprit may be....for want of a better word....

But then to say his "Gibson ES-150 from 1954" could do so perhaps suggests an intermittent condition such as cabling as it would be doubtful if a Gibson ES-150 from 1954 would have higher output than active acoustics or a Les Paul.

[jfwong]

Regarding the VL4: That will need to be a separate Pro Review as it's quite different from the VL2...I don't want to muddy the waters in this thread, which is about the VL2. I will be away most of next week doing a video shoot so I don't want to start anything and then have to stop in the middle of it.


Noooooooooo! In any case I look forward to next week then, and according to Woodwind and Brasswind.com (wwbw.com), they have a potential release date of the VL4 set for September 10th. Any idea if this an official date or just their speculation?

[bromo999]

they have a potential release date of the VL4 set for September 10th. Any idea if this an official date or just their speculation?

For what it's worth, I ordered a VL4 back in March from ZZounds.com and I just got an email from them Friday (8/17) indicating that it had been "shipped". If true I should have it in a couple of days...(like an idiot I selected "2-day" shipping"....er... 5 months ago). Anyway.. I am just a regular customer, no reviewer, etc.. so if it actually appears at my door, I'm guessing they are officially "shipping" (although they are still listed as "on order" on the ZZounds web page).

Bob

Oh.. and to ZZounds credit, they honored the $399 price that was in effect in March.

[Anderton]

He also goes on to say the his active acoustics can't "reach the green light", so your suggestion that the Les Paul volume pot is the culprit may be....for want of a better word....

But then to say his "Gibson ES-150 from 1954" could do so perhaps suggests an intermittent condition such as cabling as it would be doubtful if a Gibson ES-150 from 1954 would have higher output than active acoustics or a Les Paul.

Regarding the acoustic thing, it's hard to say because a lot of the "active" electronics are really there to convert impedance, not so much to add gain, and depend on something else to take the signal higher in level. Granted, not loading down a piezo can cause an increase in gain, but it might not be enough.

According to one of the people involved in the design of the VL2, there have many instances of people turning down their guitar, therefore not presenting enough volume to the VL2, then wondering why it doesn't work reliably. So, it seems that would be the first thing to check. Your cable suggestion is a good one too, although I'd think that any problems with the cable significant enough to affect the VL2 would be audible.

As far as I can tell the only realistic way to alter the guitar sound over a wide range when using the VL2 is to put a volume pedal after the Guitar Thru jack. I can do small volume variations, though, and the VL2 copes.