Circle of Fifths

[thamiam]

Ok, this concept has been mentioned a few times, so I figured why not take a look at it up close and see what all the fuss is about.

First, let me say that this simple diagram is an incredibly powerful tool. I could write a hundred page book on all the relationships and concepts of the Circle, but I will try to keep this post both succinct and sufficiently informative.

Part 1 - The Basics & Major Key Signatures

OK, let's look at what we are dealing with in its simplest form.
http://www.cavpromusic.com/jazz_resort/circle5ths.gif

Starting at the top with C, if you follow the circle clockwise (cw) you will see that each note is a perfect fifth above the previous note. Notice how the circle closes perfectly, because the perfect fifth of F is C, so we get back to where we started.

Now start at the top, and go counterclockwise (ccw). Each interval is a perfect fourth below the previous note. If you go up a fifth or down a fourth, you will always get the same note. (There is a whole set of skills on ascending and descending intervals that I might start a thread on later).

The three notes at the bottom have two names each. These are known as enharmonic notes. This means that they sound exactly the same, and are played in exactly the same way, the just have different names depending on what key you are in. If you play a G (first string, third fret), and move down one fret, you are now playing a Gb. If you play an F (first string, first fret), and move up one fret, you are now playing an F#. But wait! These two notes are on the same fret, and sound exactly the same. That's the concept of enharmonic notes.

Ok, now let's look at some more information, related to scales and key signatures.
http://www.geocities.com/drikasblues/less2.8.jpg
If you read music, you know that one of the first things you look for is the key signature. This tells you how many sharps or flats are in the key you are playing in, and makes it so the transcriber doesn't have to write out the same sharps or flats every single time. First, lets look at this only in the context of Major keys. At the top is C major, which has no sharps or flats. If you move one note cw, you get to G major, which has 1 sharp. If you move one note ccw, you get to F major, which has one flat. Every time you move one space cw, you add a sharp. Every time you move one space ccw, you add a flat.
Now look at the bottom of the circle.
This concept extends somewhat to scales as well, and therefore to keys. If we play a B major scale, it has 5 sharps. If we play the Cb major scale, it has 7 flats. But the two scales have exactly the same sound. This is true for all points on the circle, not just the ones illustrated above. So if you look at a key signature and see it has 4 sharps, you can remember your Circle of Fifths and know the song is in the key of E major...

....or is it?????????? :eek:

Next: Part 2 - Relative Minors and Minor Keys

[thamiam]

Part 2 - Relative Minors and Minor Keys

At the end of Part 1, I mentioned that you can use the Circle of fifths to determine what key you are in. While this statement is correct, the example I gave was intentionally misleading. If you have a key signature with 4 sharps, it is not automatically in E major. It could just as likely be in C# minor. This part will look at why that is.

Here is another representation of the Circle.
http://www.music-manuals.com/circle%20of%20fifths.gif
This time we have the same notes in the same pattern in capital letters, and we have added a second letter to each position, in lower case. These new notes represent the relative minor of the major key.
Don't try to memorize a new sequence of notes for the minor keys. Just look 90 degrees ccw from C major. Eb major has a relative minor of c minor. Then the pattern of minor keys in a cw order follows exactly the pattern of major keys from the top. This is the beginning of a very important concept, which is The Circle of Fifths represents musical concepts geometrically. Look at the top of the circle again, and see that C major has a relative minor of a minor. Even if the lower case letter wasn't there to tell you what the relative minor was, you could just look three steps (90 degrees) cw and find the key of A. The relative minor of a Major key is always 90 degrees cw. And if you have a minor key and what to know what Major scale it is based on, just look 90 degrees ccw. This gives you a visual means of finding the relative minor, instead of counting to the 6th degree of the scale.

Now, take a look at the lines towards the middle of the circle. As shown above, C major has no sharps or flats, G major has one sharp, F major has one flat, and you add a sharp as you move cw and a flat as you move ccw. Notice how this does not change when you move to a minor key. So in our example at the end of Part 1, if you see four sharps in the key signature, you know that the piece is either in E major or C# minor.

The point is not to learn a Major Circle of Fifths and a minor Circle of Fifths, but to illustrate that the very simplest form of the Circle (the first one shown in Part 1) contains all the information necessary for both Major and minor chords, scales & keys.

[thamiam]

Part 3 - Geometric Relationships

OK, now that we've introduced the concept of geometric relationships relating to musical concepts in the Circle of Fifths, let's take a look at some more of them.

http://www.lightbridgemusic.com/newimages/circleoffifths.gif
Here is the basic Circle of Fifths again. Remember that all the other diagrams you might see with added information can be derived from this simple circle.
The following are just examples of the musical concepts that can be derived from the circle. In fact, any musical concept in western harmony can be represented on the Circle, usually using very simple geometric shapes.

Tritones: Tritones are a very important musical concept. They represent a note exactly half way between an octave. For instance the tritone of C is F#. It takes 6 half-steps to go up to F# from C. It takes 6 half-steps to go up to C from F#. There are other, more practical reasons why tritones are importnat, but e'll save that for a different thread. To find a tritone in the Circle is easy. You just draw a straight line directly across the circle. The tritone of A is Eb (and vice-versa), the tritone of F is B, etc...

I-IV-V: This is the basic progression of the blues, and of most western music. And it can also be represented in the Circle by a 90 degree angle. Starting at the center of the circle, draw two line at a right angle to each other. The lines will encompass three notes, as shown below.
http://www.musik.uu.se/ssm/stmonline/vol_2_1/KGJO/ex2.JPG
Look at the three chords encompassed above. The one in the middle (C) is the I chord, the one to the left of middle (F) is the IV, and the one to the right of middle (G) is the V. Anytime you see a blues song, and want to know what key it is in or what the chords are going to be, you can use the Circle.

Whole Tone Scale: Pick any note, and then choose every other note until you get back to where you started. You just constructed a Whole Tone Scale. If you draw this as a series of arcs, you get the familiar "daisy" shape that kids are shown when they first learn how to use a compass.

Like I said, this is just a few of the relationships, the real obvious ones. There is a lot more knowledge to be gleaned from the Circle of Fifths, just by looking at it and playing around with angles and curves.

Next: Practical Applications

[thamiam]

Part 4 - Practical Applications

While most students are taught the circle in a cw manner, the practical applications in jazz and pre-rock popular music come from looking at the Circle ccw. As I've mentioned in other posts, the two most common chord progressions in popular music are ii-V-I and V of V (see 'Song Analysis' thread for more info). Starting with V of V, notice how the sequence of chords in this progression follows exactly the Circle in a ccw direction. No matter where you start, in a V of V progression the next chord will always be one note ccw. For instance, if you are playing a piece in the key of C major, you might see the progression E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - Cmaj7. This is a series of V of V's that progress through the cycle and resolve on the I. Notice how the roots mirror the ccw progression of the circle. This works no matter where you start or end.
Now look at the Circle ccw. No matter where you start any consecutive three notes form the roots of a ii-V-I. For instance, a ii-V-I in Bb is Cmin7-F7-Bbmaj7. Starting at the top of the circle, the roots of those chords are in order going ccw. This applies to any starting point on the circle. This is the big reason why jazz musicians are expected to be as familiar with the Circle of Fifths as they are their instrument.

That's all I have for now (what? that's all? jeez tham, you sure are lazy...:rolleyes: )
I hope this helped some people. I know it certainly helped me to codify the things I knew and fill in some gaps.

Questions?
Corrections?
Additions?
Please post!

[335clone]

Very nice. Printed it in color.
Thanks.

[stratcat]

OUTSTANDING POST MAN!! I didn't learn the circle for a long time after I started playing, it was a big jump when I did!!

[Guitar Centaur]

Huh?

:confused:

[barkeywayne]

It's been a while but some of this stuff is actually coming back to me.......

Thanks for the effort thamiam:)

[lestat]

thanks for posting this sam, i'll save this and keep on reading it until i know what the hell you're talking about. this is good stuff

[babybatter]

Originally posted by lestat
thanks for posting this sam, i'll save this and keep on reading it until i know what the hell you're talking about. this is good stuff

I'll second that. Whew!

[WattsUrizen]

Perhaps the most useful application of the Circle of 5ths in a compositional sense, is how it can be used to devise suitable chromatic harmonisations, and create 'haziness' in the overall harmonic structure.

For example, if your piece is in C major, but in a certain section, you harmonise your melody so that a few accidentals appear in such a way to resemble - for example - G minor, and if this chromaticism is prolonged and emphasised to a significant extent, what has happened to our tonality? Are we still in C major, or in G minor? Of course, this depends upon what our hypothetical chromatic section is like. If it is weak, most likely it will be heard as a chromatic extension from C major. If it is strong, it can be heard as a genuine movement towards a new key centre.

The point being that the Circle of 5ths will tell you how many accidentals differ between two keys, and thus how far apart two keys are. This comes into great practical use when determining what chromatic harmonies to use.

[guitarboy716]

well, when I was in my theory class, that thing was a life saver...I don't think I could've made it through the first six weeks or so with out it...Great post man

[babybatter]

Bump.


This thing should be stickied, imho. Most of us should be continually reviewing the circle of 5ths. Its one of the few true musical paradigms.

[jchrist76]

how about the order of sharps and flats

in major keys the order of sharps is as follows

F C G D A E B

so looking at our circle of fifths proceeding clockwise for sharps, the first Major key is G. The sharp in the key of G is the F#, as in our order of sharps.

in our next key D major the sharps are F# and C#

and so on til C# Major which is
F# C# G# D# A# E# B#


order of flats proceeds the same way. with the order being:

B E A D G C F - exactly opposite the order of sharps if you notice

so our first key F Major proceeding counter clockwise on the circle of fifths is:

Bb

then Bb Major

Bb Eb

all the way to Cb Major

Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb


this circle applies to the modes very well also but i will hold off on that stuff. :)

[babybatter]

bump

[335clone]

So if I'm playing a minor blues in Cm, the relative Major is Eb, and would work within the song the same way the relative minor does in a Major blues?

[thamiam]

Originally posted by 335clone
So if I'm playing a minor blues in Cm, the relative Major is Eb, and would work within the song the same way the relative minor does in a Major blues?

Yes.
Not to say that the two scales are interchangeable, because they are not in either a minor or a major blues.

But playing the relative major in a minor blues would have a similar relative effect to playing the relative minor in a major blues (relatively speaking :p )

[SonicTonic]

On the circle of fifths you will find that all the notes of a major scale are grouped together. For instance lets take C and start at degree F. You get:

F C G D A E B

If we take G major and start at C (the fourth) we get

C G D A E B F#.

This can be done for each major scale.

This can be thought of as:

fourth, tonic (first), fifth, second, sixth, third, seventh

The modes given are

lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian

This is arguably the order from lightest to darkest in modes with the lydian being very airy and pleasy and locrian being very dark (people were horrified with this mode in the middle ages).

Then right out the modes in steps
Lyidan: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolyidan: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Lyidan is counterclockwise from ionian and one note is augmented. As you go clockwise from ionian a degree is flattened. As you go clockwise each mode another degree is flattened. Once a degree is flattened it stays flattened. This works for the any degree you take on the circle of fifths.

[deftones]

thamiam

Great Post! keep up the good work
:D

[babybatter]

bump. (im busy usin' it)

[black cobra]

I think a good way to use the circle is if you want to go outside, you can control how outside you want to go, a little , or a lot.

[CIA]

this helped me a lot
thanks guys

[Dave Regio]

Great post. Very informative. I've recently begun to embrace the circle. Why it took so long I don't know.

[Ultrahighgain]

I'm going to have to print this...good stuff.

[EcoDude]

Thanks a lot for this post...a lot of good information is contained here.

I was wondering if someone could explain how to create various chord progressions? We have seen the I-IV-V and ii-V-I but how can one use the Circle to create others? How can we determine whether or not our own progressions will sound "correct"? I'm assuming that a string of random roman numerals isn't the way to do it and I know there are some rules that work well, e.g. the V-I is a very strong movemnet.

Again, thanks for the post :)

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by EcoDude
Thanks a lot for this post...a lot of good information is contained here.

I was wondering if someone could explain how to create various chord progressions? We have seen the I-IV-V and ii-V-I but how can one use the Circle to create others? How can we determine whether or not our own progressions will sound "correct"? I'm assuming that a string of random roman numerals isn't the way to do it and I know there are some rules that work well, e.g. the V-I is a very strong movemnet.

Again, thanks for the post :)


The circle of fifths can only show you so much. It can show you dominant/subdominant relationships, key signatures, and a clear path to and from the most remote of modulations. When it's time to write your own progressions, the circle is only a reference tool, and not a compositional machine.

One thing I will point out is that there are chord progressions, retrogressions, and successions (not to mention elisions, etc). Not every sequence of chords is a 'progression', and not every musical situation requires a progression. The other two (retrogressions and successions) are often labeled 'progressions' when that isn't really the case. However, explaining all of it is much too large a task for a message board...you might want to find a good book on harmony (check your local library if you can...read some books on the subject....get a feel for what you want to know, need to know, and have zero use for....and THEN you can choose one or more to buy without as much guesswork).

And don't let yourself become too 'taken' by the circle of fifths; it's a reference tool, and nothing more. :)

[Flanger]

Originally posted by thamiam

Starting at the top with C, if you follow the circle clockwise (cw) you will see that each note is a perfect fifth above the previous note. Notice how the circle closes perfectly, because the perfect fifth of F is C, so we get back to where we started.

Now start at the top, and go counterclockwise (ccw). Each interval is a perfect fourth below the previous note. If you go up a fifth or down a fourth, you will always get the same note. (There is a whole set of skills on ascending and descending intervals that I might start a thread on later).


Actually, this is wrong. As you mentioned, if you go clockwise, you go up a fifth. However, if you go counter-clockwise, you don't go down a fourth, you go up a fourth. Or it can be said that going counter-clockwise one step is going down a fifth.

So clockwise is up a fifth or down a fourth and counter-clowise is up a fourth or down a fifth.

[EcoDude]

Just to inform people here, a friend showed me the following webpage to give people a jumpstart on writing their own chord progressions:

http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/index.htm

Of course, this is not meant as a substitute for learning theory but it may make it easier for some people to get into it by showing them how to construct progressions right away.

[keano]

Starting at the top with C, if you follow the circle clockwise (cw) you will see that each note is a perfect fifth above the previous note.

I don't get it. You say that a going clockwise that after C G is next and its a fifth above? Fifth, does that mean 5 frets? Because that would land on F

Man if only I could get a handle on this

[Bliner]

Up a 5th is not five frets. Each fret is a 1/2 step increment. Up a 5th mean it is up five tones on the scale. You can actually use guitar to geometrically learn interval relationships, and then eventally translate them to notes. (ie. a fifth, with the root on the low E string 3rd fret, will always be A string 5th fret.) Start be memorizing that "shape", then toy around with putting the root in other places and listen for where that same interval sounds. This has helped me a ton learning to translate theory to my realtime, natural playing (its hard to groove and cut loose when your trying to think about counting frets etc) Hope this helps a bit and doesnt make it all worse.

[simeon]

Originally posted by keano


I don't get it. You say that a going clockwise that after C G is next and its a fifth above? Fifth, does that mean 5 frets? Because that would land on F

Man if only I could get a handle on this


just remember that when anybody is talking about fourth, fifths, thirds etc, they are talking about intervals in a scale, not semi-tone steps on a guitar fretboard

here's the C major scale -

C - root
D- second
E - major third
F - fourth
G - fifth
A - sixth
B - major seventh


sometimes the second, fourth and sixth are called the ninth, eleventh and thirteenth - you can see why here....


C - root
D
E - 3
F
G - 5
A
B - 7
C
D - 9
E
F - 11
G
A - 13
B

it's done this way, so that all the intervals are named in thirds (the distance between each named interval in this diagram is either a minor third (3 semitones) or a major third (4 semitones) - or 3 letters apart)

so this obviously has nothing to do with the guitar fretboard

as bliner suggested, it's a good idea to learn the "shape" of these intervals on the guitar neck - have a look at the attached document (it's a pdf, but i had to change it to txt to save it - so change it back to pdf to see it) - also listen to how each interval sounds...

hope that helps

sim

[whammy boy67]

Thanks thamjam. I had trouble grasping the concept of the Circle of Fifths a few weeks ago and I really need to get into it and this provided a good starting point.

- Erich

[butch]

Here’s a few ways to create chord progressions based on the circle of 4ths and 5ths. The circle is based on intervals of perfect 4ths and 5ths but they will not follow the correct notes for the key you’re in .So the note names have to be modified .For example .The progression of Falling 5ths called a circle progression (ccw) is

I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I in the Key of Cmajor that would be

I = C Major
IV= Fmajor
vii=b diminished
iii=e minor
vi=a minor
ii=d minor
V=G7

If you follow the 4th 5th circle ccw you won’t end up with these notes only these letters.That means you have to alter the note names according to the key signature.The circle can have any note at the top.. it will always remain in the same sequential order.

This circle progression is what you want to know and is realized in the 4th and 5th circle.

Now you can create progressions.Start on the I chord (of the key you want) and go to any chord and follow it to the I
EX
I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I
I-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I
I-iii-vi-ii-V-I
I-vi-ii-V-I
I-ii-V-I
I-V-I

Or start on any chord in the key and progress to the I
IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I
vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I
iii-vi-ii-V-I
vi-ii-V-I
ii-V-I

Starting on IV major chord (or extension) can sound like that’s the key you’re in..but it will work . Starting on the vii diminished can sound weak also.

The cool thing about the circle progression is any chord can be any chord in another key that related(has that note).The most common way to get to a new key is to turn a chord not a dominant (Minor or diminished) into one then the next chord will be the I in the new key
Ex
Key of Cmajor

I C Major
iii-e minor
vi-a minor
ii-d minor =V-D7
V-G7 =I-G Major

So you went from Cmajor into Gmajor.You can do this on any chord in the
I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V-I progression which enable you to get to any key in the key you’re in .You can do this anywhere.

In jazz they may string along patterns of the circle progression and then move an interval away from the key and repeat the pattern or make a new one….whatever sounds good.


Ex
Key of C Major
ii=d minor
V=G7
I=C Major7th

Key of Emajor (up a major 3rd)
ii=f# minor
V=B7
I=E Major7th

Etc.

A common one is to turn the I chord into a ii minor chord after it’s the I Major 7th of a key

C Major
ii=d minor
V=G7
I=C Major7th

Bb Major
ii=c minor
V=F7
I=Bb Major7th

Which changes key in descending whole steps.The combinations are endless(almost)

To get to distant keys the chromatic circle or circle of Minor 2nds /Major 7ths is the ticket.It has a lot in common with the Circle of 4ths and 5ths.Diagonals are diminshised fifths or tritones.It’s the patterns for flat five substitutes chords…etc..

The idea is once a pattern is created it spawns another ..5ths forward = 4ths backwards and vice versa. Minor 2nds /Major 7ths same thing .
Here’s the possibilities

Mi2nds/Ma7(chromatic circle)
Ma2nd/Mi7th
Mi3rd/Ma6th
Ma3/mi6
4th/5th

Augmented 4th and diminished 5th are the same
The circles are now reversed (from the above)until the octave’s which are the same.
That’s a lot of info buried in there and a lot of experimenting.

Butch

[Ultrahighgain]

This ought to be stickied. Too bad the images are no longer working.

Perhaps they can be reposted to valid links?

[NewTruth]

Most of your images are broken.

BTW, to memorize the order of sharpes and flats:

Father
Charles
Goes
Down
And
Ends
Battle

Where the bold letters are the notes that are sharped. The order of flats is:

Battle
Ends
And
Down
Goes
Charle's
Father