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r0g3r
11-08-2002, 12:41 AM
There seems to be quite a bit of confusion with regard to modes. So being the nice guy that I am, I'm going to try and explain them in the simplest possible way.

All scales have modes. Each mode of a scale has a unique tonality. Early on modes were used much like scales. In species counterpoint for instance, the main melody (called the cantus firmus) begins and ends on the root note of whichever diatonic mode was selected for the piece. This is similar to the way in which the relative minor scale (the Aeolian mode) is used in modern forms like Rock. Modern modal theory is a bit more encompassing than this though, and hopefully you'll have a good understanding of modes by the end of this post.

Let's try a simple exercise that will give you an immediate sense of how each mode of the major scale sounds. For the purposes of the exercise, download this small clip of me playing the C major scale: C Major Scale MP3 (128 kb) (http://www.monumentweb.com/c.mp3)

If we harmonize the C major scale (build chords from each note of the scale) we get the following sequence of chords:

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim

If you play each of these chords behind the C major scale mp3 you downloaded, you'll be hearing all 7 modes of the major scale. Each chord you play will represent one mode. Do them one a time, repeating each until you're familiar with it's sound (notice how each mode has it's own unique vibe). Even though I'm still playing the same notes, in the same position on my guitar in the mp3 clip, the modes are still changing as you change chords. Here is a list of the modal names for each mode you're playing:

C major chord: Ionian
D minor chord: Dorian
E minor chord: Phrygian
F major chord: Lydian
G major chord: Mixolydian
A minor chord: Aeolian
B diminished chord: Locrian


Derivative Application

There are two distinct ways that you can use modes. The first is the one mentioned above that is used in species harmony. This type of modal use is called "derivative." These modes are relative to the parent scale. They are derived from the same notes of the parent scale. This is the same reason that the relative minor (aeolian mode) is called "relative." It is a derived mode.

Here is an example:

Download this short riff (from an old unfinished song of mine):

F# Phryigan Riff (219 kb) (http://www.monumentweb.com/Phrygian-Riff.mp3)

Now over that riff, improvise using the notes of the D major scale.


----------------------------------------------------2--3--5---
-----------------------------------------2--3--5--------------
----------------------------------2--4------------------------
-----------------------2--4--5--------------------------------
------------2--4--5-------------------------------------------
--2--3--5-----------------------------------------------------


(EDIT: D Major Scale = D E F# G A B C#)

This riff is written with the tonal center (tonic, root) being F# Phrygian. In other words, it begins on and resolves to F#, but it has the same notes as it's parent (relative) scale, which is D major. So by playing the notes of D major in any position, you are playing in the phrygian mode. In the above example I gave you the position that begins on the 3rd, the one that is generally associated with the phygian mode, but you could very well play any of the positions on the fretboard, as long as you're playing the notes from D major.

Is it making any sense yet?

Parallel Application

The other way of applying modes is in "parallel." This is where you play modes that are not necessarily from the same key that your overall harmony is derived from. For instance, if I'm playing over a C major progression, and I come across the Dminor or Dminor7 chord, If I improvise using the all natural notes of C major, it will give the vanilla sound of D dorian, which is relative to C major. However, I can also play any other scale or mode that contains the chord tones that are in the D minor 7th chord (though some choices may be more appropriate than others in a given context).

To better understand this concept download this clip of me playing a Dm7 chord:
D minor 7 MP3 (95k) (http://www.monumentweb.com/Dm7.mp3)

Let's imagine this chord is happening in the context of a C major chord progression.

Over that chord try playing each of the following scales or modes:


D Dorian:

----------------------------------------------------------------12--13-15---
----------------------------------------------------12--13--15--------------
----------------------------------------10--12--14--------------------------
---------------------------10--12--14---------------------------------------
---------------10--12--14---------------------------------------------------
--10--12--13----------------------------------------------------------------


(EDIT: D Dorian = D E F G A B C)

D dorian is the relative mode to our parent key of C. This is the same effect as playing the C major scale over our C major progression. Nothing new here. But I just wanted you to see how we're going to vary things in the other examples.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

D Phrygian:

----------------------------------------------------------------11--13-15---
----------------------------------------------------11--13--15--------------
----------------------------------------10--12--14--------------------------
---------------------------10--12--13---------------------------------------
---------------10--12--13---------------------------------------------------
--10--11--13----------------------------------------------------------------


(EDIT: D Phrygian = D Eb F G A Bb C)

The D Phrygian is not relative to our hypothetical key of C major. But instead is related to the key of Bb major. The key of Bb major also contains a D minor 7th in it's harmonization, but it occurs at the 3rd scale tone and not the 2nd as in our current parent key C. So I'm shifting the tonality by playing the D phrygian mode, in parallel to the parent key implied by our hypothetical C major harmony.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

D Dorian b2:

----------------------------------------------------------------11--13-15---
----------------------------------------------------12--13--15--------------
----------------------------------------10--12--14--------------------------
---------------------------10--12--13---------------------------------------
---------------10--12--14---------------------------------------------------
--10--11--13----------------------------------------------------------------


(EDIT: D Dorian b2 = D Eb F G A B C)

This is a mode from a different scale. The addition of the b2 to the name means we're not dealing with the dorian mode that is relative to the diatonic major scale. This is the 2nd mode of the Melodic minor scale. This is likely to be an excellent choice to play over the ii chord in our hypothetical C major harmony. The C melodic minor scale harmonization contains our D minor 7th chord at it's 2nd scale degree.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One reason the Dorian b2 mode is useful over our minor 7th chord, is because it gives us an "upper leading tone" that allows us to resolve to the root of this chord more smoothly. Since the dorian normally has a minor 7th, and therefore lacks a leading tone, this is useful.

Another example of the usefulness of parallel modes is to play the lydian mode over major chords. For instance, over a C major chord, you could play C Lydian (same notes as G major). The benefit of this is that the Lydian mode has a raised 4th, and the 4th is an "avoid note" when playing over major chords. By using the Lydian mode, in place of the major scale (ionian mode) the 4th is automatically avoided.

Hopefully these examples have helped some of you better understand modes. The basic concept isn't that hard to understand, but there are a lot of misconceptions about modes that unfortunately get passed on in various ways.

babybatter
11-08-2002, 01:11 AM
I mean this in the nicest way....

...your post has told me its time for bed. Im too tired to read it.


But im TOTALLY gonna sift it over tomorrow. I really dont understand the modes, as there seem to be so many explanations of it. A quick read, and Im a bit lost. The exercise of playing over the c scale helps though.

My chord book totally botched the diminished chord, for every key. Can I be a dumb-ass and ask for the fingering for any voicing of B dim? (or any diminished....)

Thanks for the post. Im going to take advantage of it. :D

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by babybatter
I mean this in the nicest way....

...your post has told me its time for bed. Im too tired to read it.


But im TOTALLY gonna sift it over tomorrow. I really dont understand the modes, as there seem to be so many explanations of it. A quick read, and Im a bit lost. The exercise of playing over the c scale helps though.

My chord book totally botched the diminished chord, for every key. Can I be a dumb-ass and ask for the fingering for any voicing of B dim? (or any diminished....)

Thanks for the post. Im going to take advantage of it. :D

Heh :) Here ya go:


Bdiminished
-----
--3--
--1--
--3--
--2--
-----

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 02:35 AM
Sorry Roger, but I think there's a problem there. If you are in C major and you play the notes from D Phrygian, or D Dorian b2 (D Phrygian #6), the lead will not actually function as these modes. It will be heard relative to C major, not the Dmin7 chord, since C major is the fundamental tonality, and the most structurally significant entity present.

What you will get is the leads sounding as chromatic alterations. Playing 'modes' over tonal accompaniment does not make your leads 'modes'. A piece of music can not be tonal and modal in the same instance. One will be heard relative to the other. In this case, I think the modal patterns will be heard as chromatic alterations of diatonic scales.

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Anomandaris
Sorry Roger, but I think there's a problem there. If you are in C major and you play the notes from D Phrygian, or D Dorian b2 (D Phrygian #6), the lead will not actually function as these modes. It will be heard relative to C major, not the Dmin7 chord, since C major is the fundamental tonality, and the most structurally significant entity present.

What you will get is the leads sounding as chromatic alterations. Playing 'modes' over tonal accompaniment does not make your leads 'modes'. A piece of music can not be tonal and modal in the same instance. One will be heard relative to the other. In this case, I think the modal patterns will be heard as chromatic alterations of diatonic scales.

I think you're hindered by your classical background ;) The parallel concept of modes is a common application in jazz etc.

Though you're correct that these could be interpreted as alterations to the major scale, I don't see it as a problem with my explanation.

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 02:42 AM
Let me clarify here: Different modes or scales played over a particular chord will highlight different possible alterations and extensions of said chord. This is an entirely different concept from the derivative modal concept used in classical and earlier music.

Any of the 3 options I gave for playing over the Dmin7 chord above is perfectly valid.

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by r0g3r
I think you're hindered by your classical background ;) The parallel concept of modes is a common application in jazz etc.

Though you're correct that these could be interpreted as alterations to the major scale, I don't see it as a problem with my explanation.

Damn Schenker! :mad: :D

You're right though, I don't think I'm on the same wavelength as you.

I take it you are talking about using modal patterns in an improvisation sense?

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Anomandaris


Damn Schenker! :mad: :D

You're right though, I don't think I'm on the same wavelength as you.

I take it you are talking about using modal patterns in an improvisation sense?

Exactly. That is why I used the term improvisation when describing the concept :)

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by r0g3r
Exactly. That is why I used the term improvisation when describing the concept :)

I have to get out more often. :(

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Anomandaris


I have to get out more often. :(

LOL, actually what you said was correct. You probably know 5 times what I know about classical theory man.

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by r0g3r
LOL, actually what you said was correct. You probably know 5 times what I know about classical theory man.

Probably not, and I think you realise as well that classical theory is a different kettle of fish. Improvisation isn't a strong point of mine.

J the D
11-08-2002, 06:40 AM
I have to say my first response to this post mirrored Anomandaris and I want to see the notes to better understand it. Is there any chance we can get the original post with notation instead of tab for us Phillistines that don't play guitar?

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by J the D
I have to say my first response to this post mirrored Anomandaris and I want to see the notes to better understand it. Is there any chance we can get the original post with notation instead of tab for us Phillistines that don't play guitar?

Sorry Roger, I'll hijack your thread for a moment. ;)

J the D, what instrument do you play? I'm guessing piano, given your familiarity with a keyboard, shown in the other mode thread?

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by J the D
I have to say my first response to this post mirrored Anomandaris and I want to see the notes to better understand it. Is there any chance we can get the original post with notation instead of tab for us Phillistines that don't play guitar?

Ok, I went and edited the post to include the notes for each mode in the tablature examples. I haven't slept all night and didn't feel like opening a notation program, and taking screenshots etc etc, so that will have to do.

J the D
11-08-2002, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Anomandaris


Sorry Roger, I'll hijack your thread for a moment. ;)

J the D, what instrument do you play? I'm guessing piano, given your familiarity with a keyboard, shown in the other mode thread?

Bass player, upright primarily but I do play the Fender a lot. I do not play the piano in public but use use my $300 electronic keyboard to figure out the chords on songs I am trying to notate or do a lead sheet for, to work on alternative harmonies or songwriting.

WattsUrizen
11-08-2002, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by J the D
Bass player, upright primarily but I do play the Fender a lot. I do not play the piano in public but use use my $300 electronic keyboard to figure out the chords on songs I am trying to notate or do a lead sheet for, to work on alternative harmonies or songwriting.

Heh, I was a little right. ;)

Reeko2
11-08-2002, 09:42 AM
I agree with R03GR,

Until I started studying Jazz, the whole modal thing really did not seem important.

In Jazz it is very common to play different modes over chord changes that do not follow the overall tonality (if there even is one) to a song.
I tend to think of this (in my simplistic mind) as temperary key changes from chord to chord. Many times in Jazz (a good example is a 5 of 5 progression that walks around the circle of 5ths) the key is changing measure to measure. The easiest way to play this is to play a mode over each chord. (or maybe playing each mixolydian mode realative to each V chord)

But, I am pretty new to Jazz, so I might be stating this wrong.

ninjaaron
11-08-2002, 10:10 AM
good stuff, I never looked at some of it quite like that before!

Scuttlebuttin
11-08-2002, 11:04 AM
Very interesting stuff everyone..In my simple mind I translate different modes as "wildcard notes". Basically..I think in terms of sounds rather then patterns. Each mode presents a "wild card" a note sound or two that deviates from the initial major/minor scale. But somehow it still fits.

I have read various books regarding different modes and their applicability to certain chords. Practiced the modes/scales..etc and to be honest, this bores the heck out of me. I can handle maybe an hour of doing that if I'm lucky. I find it more refreshing to work in reverse. Play a set of chords and search and peck for different notes other then the "box" type that fit..but yet don't fit..then look in a book and say "Hey, I was just playing an A dorian/mixolydian scale..cool!" I find I'm more attentive that way. Then again..I'm so naive when it comes to the technical aspect of the guitar..it could just be plain ignorance.

My biggest problem..like I said before..I'm not a technical thinker. So I have a hard time finding different modes that apply to different chord changes..without spending the time searching and pecking. So when I perform live improv..I find myself stuck in the simplistic major/minor stuff. Unless I know the mode very well, I generally do not deviate. Or I run the risk of playing an off note or two..which=bad. Hopefully I can progress to a point where i can say.."Key of A..huh,well lets try a dorian mode" Basically an arsenal of modes for my choosing during improvisation.

Thanks again

SB

J the D
11-08-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Reeko2
Many times in Jazz (a good example is a 5 of 5 progression that walks around the circle of 5ths) the key is changing measure to measure.

Have you tried doing it backward as a circle of 4ths.

babybatter
11-08-2002, 05:17 PM
Hey Roger.

Just wanted to say I spent a good 40 mins on modes today, and my overall perspective on modes now has at least a small chunk of your tutorial in there.

Im gonna come back to modes sometime tomorrow and see if I can turn your tutorial from a chunk to a 'stream'.

Excellent post!

Darryl

r0g3r
11-08-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by babybatter
Hey Roger.

Just wanted to say I spent a good 40 mins on modes today, and my overall perspective on modes now has at least a small chunk of your tutorial in there.

Im gonna come back to modes sometime tomorrow and see if I can turn your tutorial from a chunk to a 'stream'.

Excellent post!

Darryl

Cool man, I'm glad you found it useful :)

J the D
11-08-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by J the D
I have to say my first response to this post mirrored Anomandaris and I want to see the notes to better understand it. Is there any chance we can get the original post with notation instead of tab for us Phillistines that don't play guitar?

LynGrey
11-08-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by r0g3r


Heh :) Here ya go:


Bdiminished
-----
--3--
--1--
--3--
--2--
-----


DUDE... that what that chord is.. i play that chort alot.. heh.. and never knew what it was called.. one of my favorite chords.. and don't ask me how i know what Emjr7+11 chord is..cuz i dunno i just fretted it and it sounded cool.. just like my Dmin13no9 chord... i know i like big chords.. hehe.. unlike most muscians... i commite to using big chord.. rather than saying yeah i like big chords and the biggest chord some one plays is a N7no5 chord.. you know.. i am like damn.. that ain't big... big is all six strings.. maybe five strings... heh.. anybody else have some chord voicings in D-drop that are BIG!?

Also this is how i have approched MODES... F!@# them.... to complex.. but i really think of them as... down a note on the fretboard... same number of SHARPS/FLATs.... like C and D ionaian.. i never get the names right.. but C D E F G A B C.. and D ionaian would be D E F G A B C D.. versus D mjr would be D E F# G A B C# D.. its a flat 3 and flat 6... but its not the notes you play.. its how your progressions interlock with the note you play.. its sooooooooo confusing i know!! but thats on par right?

r0g3r
11-11-2002, 03:30 PM
Bump

funky
11-11-2002, 08:26 PM
Nice explanation Roger. Thanks for taking the time and making the clips. It's guys like you, who take those extra steps, that make HC so kick ass.

Thanks Bro!!! :D

Now, what are modes? :confused:

Just jokin' :p

r0g3r
11-11-2002, 11:14 PM
Thanks funky. Not that you needed the lesson I'm sure. ;)

SAF_Jon
11-12-2002, 01:06 PM
Roger,

Great job with the explanation! I just had one thing that I wanted to add. A lot of people are talking about playing modes over certain scales and/or other modes and no one really has had a name for this occurance of "wildcard" notes, or it seems that the "keys change around." We are basically talking about modal interchange here, am I right? Forgive me if I am somehow misunderstanding.

Many modern "artists" make use of modal interchange in a lot of songs. I suppose you could consider this one of the "secrets" of modal music, though it can easily be applied to classical theory. For instance, if you were playing in the key of C Major:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

You might write a little diddy that went like this:

C, Bb, F, C

You'd think to yourself: "Well, Bb isn't in the key of C Major."

But it is in the key of C Minor:

C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C

I think the occurance of flats and sharps that are not a part of the key the song is written in (known as modal interchange) is what we are talking about here. I've known a few guys who, when describing the scales of a song they wrote, would often say: "Okay, now there's a key change here because I play an F# and a then a D," when in reality they are just interchanging modes between G Major (Ionian) and G Minor (Aeolian).

I hope I've helped out a bit.
Jon

r0g3r
11-12-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by SAF_Jon
Roger,

Great job with the explanation! I just had one thing that I wanted to add. A lot of people are talking about playing modes over certain scales and/or other modes and no one really has had a name for this occurance of "wildcard" notes, or it seems that the "keys change around." We are basically talking about modal interchange here, am I right? Forgive me if I am somehow misunderstanding.

Many modern "artists" make use of modal interchange in a lot of songs. I suppose you could consider this one of the "secrets" of modal music, though it can easily be applied to classical theory. For instance, if you were playing in the key of C Major:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

You might write a little diddy that went like this:

C, Bb, F, C

You'd think to yourself: "Well, Bb isn't in the key of C Major."

But it is in the key of C Minor:

C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C

I think the occurance of flats and sharps that are not a part of the key the song is written in (known as modal interchange) is what we are talking about here. I've known a few guys who, when describing the scales of a song they wrote, would often say: "Okay, now there's a key change here because I play an F# and a then a D," when in reality they are just interchanging modes between G Major (Ionian) and G Minor (Aeolian).

I hope I've helped out a bit.
Jon

Right, I believe Modal Interchange is an application of parallel modes. So if we're borrowing chords from G minor in a song that is in the key of G major, then we're using Modal Interchange.

This is certainly something I don't see mentioned often in discussions of modes, and which I neglected to mention in my explanation. Excellent post.

WattsUrizen
11-12-2002, 02:54 PM
I think it should be mentioned that even if you 'borrow' from other modes, you most likely will not sound as though you are playing in that mode. You will still be heard relative to the current modality/tonality and so the 'borrowed' notes will be heard as chromatic inflections.

funky
12-21-2002, 03:33 AM
http://www.vmi-music.com/smilies/big/bump.gif

r0g3r
12-22-2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by spacedog



thanks for the cool thread roger !

but now (if you dont mind )i have a
question thats been on my mind for awhile: are these the only modes out there?

and if not how many more do i have to learn before i can say" i know my modes"?


thanks alot !

Wow, I thought this thread was gone for good ;)

Anyways, these are all of the modes of the Major (diatonic) scale. These are certainly the most important ones to learn. All scales have their own set of modes though. Some important ones to learn are the Melodic Minor, and Harmonic Minor. These are the most commonly used scales besides the Pentatonic and Diatonic scales.

telecaster_lou
12-23-2002, 02:22 PM
this is making more sense than any other mode explaination i've seen, i still can't get it though. I'm too tired i'll come back and try to crack it in the morning.

how long does it take to crack modes???

r0g3r
12-23-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by telecaster_lou
how long does it take to crack modes???

I don't know the answer to that, but it seems like at some point it will just be like a light bulb coming on in your head. And it will all make sense ;)