VOX TONELAB LE (GUITAR MULTI-EFFECTS PROCESSOR) [Archive] - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 06:11 AM

VOX TONELAB LE
A Multi-effects Unit with Tube Sound, Evolved Technology, and a Classic Pedigree

Vox Amplification are known for their classic amps of yore, including the venerable AC30, plus the newer Valvetronix series that incorporate a hybrid technology of tubes, and analog and digital circuitry. Vox has also used this technology, dubbed “Valve Reactor,” in their ToneLab multi-effects series, beginning with the original ToneLab (tabletop version) and continuing through the ToneLab SE, which included two onboard expression pedals.

Now Vox has released the ToneLab LE (http://www.voxamps.co.uk/tonelab/tonelab_le.asp), a full-featured multi-effects processor that uses the same analog/digital hybrid Valve Reactor sound engine, but with improved 24-bit processing for a smoother sound. And, as with any upgrade on a product using microprocessor technology, a whole host of other improvements have been added as well. But the improvements aren’t just limited to the digital bits: Vox has listened to players who worked with previous generations of the ToneLab series and has redesigned the LE to hone in and expand on the important features while carving away at the weight, footprint, lesser-used features, and price. As well, they’ve steadfastly adhered to the analog, tube-driven sound of a 12AX7 that has been the ToneLabs’ engine since the get-go. For guitarists looking for an evolved-by-generations tube-driven multi-effects unit, and one that sports the pedigree of a classic amp manufacturer, the ToneLab LE is the ticket.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelable.jpg

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 06:12 AM

Let’s take a quick look to see how Vox begat their latest incarnation in the ToneLab family. The ToneLab LE is the successor to Vox’s previous high-end effects unit, the ToneLab SE, which was the “stage edition” of the original tabletop ToneLab (both now out of production). Many guitarists latched onto the original and the SE, but the LE improves on the SE in several ways, making it a lean, mean processing machine. Here’s a quick look at the list of the differences between the LE and its immediate predecessor, the SE.

LE Features Compared to the SE
• Smaller footprint, lighter weight
• One expression pedal vs. two
• 24-bit processing vs. 20-bit
• All new presets
• Enhanced recording options (including digital optical output)
• Five-mode amp/line-out modes
• Master EQ section added
• Acoustic guitar simulator included
• Lower street price ($399 vs. $499)

The only obvious difference — one you wouldn’t expect from a newer piece of technology succeeding an older one — is the reduction of two pedals to one. Vox decided that the trade-off between reduced size, weight, and cost versus a second onboard pedal was worth it, based on their market research. Personally, I agree with this choice, because I don’t ever use two pedals simultaneously, though I have programmable pedals that change function (wah to volume, reverb depth to tap tempo rate, digital whammy to mod depth/speed, etc.) depending on the preset. If you’re a guitarist who loves having, say, a dedicated volume pedal alongside a programmable one (and you want them both contained within your multi-effects unit), this could be an issue. But Vox is betting it isn’t, at least for most guitarists, anyway. (And of course, you can always strap on your favorite external pedal through the ToneLab’s Insert Effect capability — which we’ll discuss later.)

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 06:17 AM

The design and layout of the LE is similar to the SE and the original, except for the color scheme (the original and SE were blue with yellow lettering), and some switches have changed locations or their functions absorbed by other controls to help get the LE to its smaller footprint. The back panels are virtually identical, except that the LE adds a digital output in the form of an optical S/PDIF jack. (Even Vox’s curious use of the word “Standby” to mean “Off” on the power switch remains.) Speaking of power, the LE uses a heavy-duty “line lump” supply, which is much preferred over the dreaded, outlet-hogging wall wart. Nice!

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelabrearl.jpg
http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelabrearr.jpg

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 06:23 AM

Remember, part of the idea of Harmony Central’s Pro Review format is to present first impressions and discoveries, as the reviewer experiences them. In this blog-like fashion, you can see what the reviewer’s initial reactions are, and how they change over time. You can also interject comments in real (or nearly so) time. So following are some out-of-the-box reactions to this newly available unit.

Vox has adopted a black-on-brushed-silver-gray motif, which provides a more sober, professional look as compared to the previous ToneLabs’ yellow-on-blue scheme. (The brushed-gray texture also keeps the light reflectivity down.) Coming out of the shipping carton, the ToneLab LE is heavy and ruggedly well built (all that metal), but not a behemoth, considering it sports a large display, a built-in pedal (with that classy Vox logo), and housing for a 12AX7 vacuum tube (or “valve,” to our friends across the pond). At just under 20 inches wide, the LE is shorter and less plank-like than the SE, so it’s a lot easier to wrangle, and stuff into a carrying bag. It’s nice and low-slung, too (rising to just 2 inches off the floor at its highest point), angling upward at the back, which makes for a good eyeballing attitude.

The sliver-gray faceplate has a no-nonsense, workman-like look to it, augmented by black chicken-head discrete selector knobs, heavy knurled chrome continuous-controller knobs, translucent white switches that light up (solid when on, blinking when in edit mode), black menu-navigating buttons, green LED status lights on the footswitches, red LEDs in the effects matrix, and black and sliver lettering. When rattling them off here, it sounds like a wide array of different interface styles, but it’s all very well integrated, intuitive, and quickly grokkable. There’s some cross-reinforcement, too: When the ToneLab LE is in “stompbox mode” (more on this later), the on/off-status footswitch LEDs will light up along with their corresponding white switches in the model-editing section above. Either switch activates the other, like having two light switches on either side of a big room.

I noticed right away that there was a lot of text labels on the modeling controls, as each of the detents in the 16- and 11-position encoders was descriptively labeled (“Tweed 4x10,” “AC30TB,” “Classic Flanger,” Multi Tap Chorus,” etc. This makes it very clear what the model choices are, and though it looks like they might be difficult to read at a distance, you won’t be using these settings for on-the-fly performance decisions. So I’m glad they squeezed this text onto the faceplate; it allows you to see all your options at a glance, rather than having to step through incrementally and reading a display. But again, in the interest of cross-reinforcement, selecting a model activates the editing mode and throws the parameter up in the display section in bold backlit lettering.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelabcloseup1.jpg

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 08:02 AM

The ToneLab LE powers up in bank/program mode, which means that stepping on the footswitches changes either the bank or the program within the bank. (You can put the ToneLab LE into stompbox mode, where you can turn individual effects on and off, by pressing and holding the bank up switch.) Since the ToneLab LE is capable of operating in five signal-path scenarios (three settings for going into an amp, two for a mixer or recorder), I followed the manual’s Quick Start advice, and dialed up the setting most appropriate to my amp, in this case, a Matchless Spitfire (hey, I’m trying to stay within that Vox vibe, ya know?).

The ToneLab LE has 30 banks and four programs within each bank, for a total of 120 storable sounds. Vox chose to factory-program only 40 programs (banks 1-10) and just repeat these sounds in banks 11-20 and 21-30. It’s a simple process to just edit the programs in banks 11-30 and keep the factory sounds in 1-10. Or you can edit all of them and rely on the factory restore option, should you ever want to start over.

At first, 40 presets out of a possible 120 might seem meager, but I actually found it refreshing that the ToneLab LE wasn’t crammed with a bunch of useless over-the-top stuff, just to fill up the slots. Forty sounds is more than enough for me to use for templates, or jumping off points to edit, create, and store my own sounds.

Before I got into the effects and the routing possibilities, I wanted to get into the ToneLab’s sound engine, the Valve Reactor sound engine. Here’s a schematic of the way it works, and you can download a pdf of the manual here: http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/PDF/ToneLab%20LE_Manual.pdf

http://jonchappell.com/hc/valvereactor.jpg

Jon Chappell

03-26-2007, 08:41 AM

Speaking of downloads, check out the audio files of some of the LE’s sounds, put together by the Vox guys. These are large files, so I suggest you save them to disk first (right-click/control click) first.

Flash Fusion by David Spann http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE-FlashFusion.mp3

Muletone by David Spann http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE-Muletone.mp3

AC30TB by David Spann http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/TonelabLE-AC30TB.mp3

AC30 Driven 1 by Rob Math http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE_AC30Driven1.mp3

Filter 1 by Rob Math http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE_Fliter1.mp3

Octave Crunch by Rob Math http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE_OctaveCrunch.mp3

US Modern Wah by Rob Math http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE_USModernWah.mp3

VH78 by Rob Math http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/ToneLab/ToneLabLE_VH%20_78_%202.mp3

GCDEF

03-26-2007, 11:12 AM

Looks like a big step backwards to me. I used a Tonelab SE live for about a year. A dedicated volume pedal was one of its most useful features. You can get any sound at any volume really easily. I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could think taking that away is a good thing.

The other serious limitation in what effects could be combined together is still there. That, IMHO is the most seriously fault with the unit. OD, wah and Univibe are mutually exclusive for example. What's a Trower or Hendrix fan supposed to do?

guitarkid∞

03-26-2007, 03:54 PM

BALLS!

i've only had mine for a few months. and now this new one!

DAMN.
______

although the removal of the volume pedal is sad.

although it took up room, it helped a lot.

damn.

i dont know.

i mean, i really love what i have now, but i guess i can try the new one, and if anything, just sell mine.

Pepi

03-26-2007, 05:55 PM

Won't be trading in my SE for sure.

jeverist

03-26-2007, 06:14 PM

GCDEF

03-26-2007, 07:16 PM

I find that hard to believe anyone would overlook that. Its probably that you have to program them all in and then the group would be footswitchable. Actually, that could be kind of convenient.

I played it for a year. I know how it worked. There are four groups of effects. What they call "pedal", modulation, delay and reverb. One and only one from each group can be active at a time.

BenJammin62

03-26-2007, 07:30 PM

Jon Chappell

03-27-2007, 05:44 AM

I had the first Tonelab - I returned it after testing because it had extremely nasty digital aliasing on every tone - clean, distorted, didn't matter. Worst aliasing I've heard on any modeler (like a high freq. ripping, or tearing sound esp. on the attacks). Is that taken care of in this new model?

No, there's absolutely no audible aliasing (or other digital artifacts) here. The processing is smooth and clean. From your description, it sounds like you might have had a bad unit, an anomaly. I've not heard that complaint about any member of the TL family.

This iteration of the ToneLab is actually cheaper than the previous version, the SE. They've not only reduced the footprint (by eliminating a pedal), but they've lowered the price while keeping the same basic architecture. So, the "one modulation effect per program" paradigm has been kept, which was the same as its predecessors, but the digital processing has been updgraded, and to my ears, sounds smoother. As I said, if you want two pedals and multiple mod effects, you can still strap on your own -- the ToneLab LE provides an Insert Effect point, as shown here:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/signalchain.jpg

Kewlpack

03-27-2007, 08:13 AM

Thanks for the review John. I'm also a big fan of the TLSE nowadays (simple, good tone, plenty of mojo). From all the first impressions I've been reading, it appears that Vox has taken several baby steps in the right direction - AS WELL AS a few in the wrong direction.

I hope to get my hands on one in the near future so I can check it out first hand. I hope the improved processing and output options are "all that". ;)

Frank Prince

03-27-2007, 09:01 AM

I appreciate this review. I've been using the SE for gigging for several years now.

I am a bit disappointed, though. Like the previous poster, the dedicated volume pedal is pretty much a must for me. If they had included an external jack for another expression pedal, and added the capability to move the location of the insert point around, I would probably order one today.

Oh, well. :(

Jon Chappell

03-27-2007, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the review John. I'm also a big fan of the TLSE nowadays (simple, good tone, plenty of mojo).

Yes, the focus on tone is obviously paramount in this unit, courtesy of the Valve Reactor circuitry (which is all analogue). What I've done is to bypass the effects section so that I can concentrate on the Valve Reactor circuit and amp modeling features, before moving on to the effects, both "pedal" (before the preamp) and modulation (after the cabinet modeling).

That's the place where I am now, and I'm getting a great sound (admittedly, though, a bit dry without effects), and am enjoying the analogue response. For example, when working with the AC30TB (top boost), cranking my guitar's volume knob creates a raspy bark, but rolling it back slightly produces glassy, jangly textures. In other words, the ToneLab is responding differently to different guitar-volume input -- it's not just producing louder and softer versions of the same sound.

Is this a substitute for an actual AC30TB with five 12AX7's, four EL84s, and a Blue Alnico speaker? Of course not, but there's some definite intelligence and musicality going on here.

dwerlin

03-27-2007, 09:59 AM

Hey Jon,

Glad to see you're getting great sound out of the Vox unit. Would you say this unit is head and shoulders above say, the DigiTech RP350 and/or the Line 6 Floor POD?

Basically, is it worth double the price? Is it a no-brainer due to the valve reactor circuitry?

Thanks!

Jon Chappell

03-27-2007, 11:10 AM

Definitely better than the RP350, but then, it's much more expensive (as you say, double the price), so that's not necessarily a surprise. Don't own a Line 6 Floor POD (though I've played through them), so I can't do a proper comparison.

Worth double the price? "Worth" is relative, of course, and "double" in this case means spending $200 more for the sound-generating circuitry (and MIDI implementation, which the RP350 doesn't have), if you can assume for the sake of argument that the digital effects section is a wash. To me, a tube-driven sound -- one that I can feel as well as hear -- is worth it. Plus, I was already a fan of the Vox Valvetronix AD60/120VT amps, so it's nice to have that technology trickled down into a processor. The ToneLab LE is more heavy duty, has a bettery power supply solution, and better I/O.

Hint: if you try one at the store, turn off the effects, and make sure to match the amp sim. setting with the cabinet sim. setting that the amp was originally designed to go with (e.g., "AC30TB" with "Vox AC30"). Page 32 of the manual (which you can download) gives these settings, plus throws in a few good "mix and match" options (e.g., "Black 2x12" with "Tweed 4x10" and "UK Blues" with "Vox AC30").

dwerlin

03-27-2007, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the reply. If you were to play both the RP250/350 and the ToneLab LE into the front of a tube amp...would there then be much of a difference? A good philosophical question. Then you'd have to judge the box for its "Pedal" attributes (i.e., stompbox modeling) and ignore the Valve Reactor part. [-inline edits by JC]

Is MIDI the only way to hook the ToneLab LE up to the computer for tweaking/patch upload/download? Correct, there's no USB connection. -JC

Can you access the tuner via footswitch? Yes, you just press and hold (for about a 1/2 second) the active-program footswitch.

Is there a tap-temp and if so, can you access it via footswitch? Yes. -JC

fnordbak

03-27-2007, 12:50 PM

Jon Chappell

03-27-2007, 03:13 PM

Isn't the Floor POD based on POD 2.0 technology? I would say the Tonelab is way better.

That's my sense, too, if memory serves, but to be strictly fair, I don't have a Floor Pod (I do have the RP350) to do a controlled, A/B comparison.

echoshock

03-27-2007, 06:19 PM

Hi Jon,
Thanks for the review. I just got my LE in the mail today. I'm going through the presets and I'm a little scared by a few. Please let me know if you are getting this same thing.
On preset 21-3 'Big Lead' if I hold a note, say for 3 secs, I can hear a noise gate I guess come in and basically reduce the volume of my note in a very unnatural way. I haven't gotten that deep into the LE yet to see if there is some kind of noise reduction I can turn off. But even if there is, this seems to be a very strange setting for a preset. I noticed it on some other high gain presets as well. It also kinda happens if I lightly pick a note, like the gate has to open enough so the full volume comes out. Again, understandable but it doesn't seem to be working in a useful way. I'm holding a bend and can basically hear the note drop off.
Please let me know if you have this too. If not, maybe there's something wrong with mine.
Thanks!
[As ouch1234 points out below, the noise gate is set high in these presets, because it's meant for very high-gain situations. If it's too high for your particular situation, just knock back the NR a bit by holding down the AMP and CAB buttons simultaneously and turning down value knob 4 ("NR"). -JC.]

ouch1234

03-27-2007, 06:59 PM

There is a noise gate and it can be adjusted...its rather sensative..

I have the se and le and the le is a bit smoother and fuller in overall tonal response.but not night and day IMHO. I agree a external pedal jack would have been nice to add an fc50 pedal..and i would have liked to see a second set on pedal effects on that pedal effect chicken switch(like the amps and cabinets on the same switch) so we could choose 2 different pedal effects before modulation and delay and reverb...that would be nice and a definate plus. But overall the le is just as sweet as the se...and there really is no need to upgrade to the le from the se..

Pascal

03-28-2007, 03:03 AM

Hi there!

I am new to modelers/multiFX, so the question I'm going to ask may be stupid...

I'm mainly a jazzer, and if my priority is a good clean tone, I like to go into dirty or overdriven territory once in a while. I need to get a proper amp-that-does-it-all, and I thought I might want to buy a good clean amp and couple it with a good modeler.... say, for example, a Fender Jazz King (ss) and a Tonelab.

Would such a thing work, i.e. being able to switch between the clean amp and the amp models? How? :confused:

dwerlin

03-28-2007, 03:37 AM

Pascal,

Yes, in general you can do this, you'd put the modeler in "bypass" mode for the amp/cab modeling (this way you can either have just your clean amp, or if you'd like, your clean amp with an effect or two infront of it, but without an amp/cab model).

What we'd need from Jon is a word on how good the bypass on the ToneLab LE is!

In short -- you can't use the ToneLab LE in bypass mode (see my post below on this). --JC

Marc G

03-28-2007, 04:09 AM

dwerlin

03-28-2007, 04:20 AM

Marc G:

For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

unhorizon

03-28-2007, 04:52 AM

I think my TLSE is pretty damn good at effects. Maybe better than amp sim.?

Pascal

03-28-2007, 05:33 AM

Yuh know.....isn't the point of buying a modeler to use the amp and cab modeling? I mean...these units normally are kinda limited with respect to how you can use effects etc. so wouldn't it just be better to get stomp boxes if all you want is the effects?

Well, it is partly what I was wondering. dwerlin made it clear that I could bypass the amp/cab simulations and get the clean tone of my amp, so that's cool. [You can't bypass the modeling to get to the effects, but you can "neutralize" them. -JC.] Now the other part of the question is does using amp/cab models sound like ass when the tonelab is plugged into a guitar amp, or can the amp/cab mods be used to get different tone colors/breaking-up styles (with or with additional effects)? [The ToneLab LE sounds great when plugged into a guitar amp -- it's designed to be used this way, as all multi-effects are. -JC.]

Would that really be much more different than guitar => modeller => P.A. (incl. P.A. amp + speakers)... considering the amp would be a ss amp specialised in cleans (although the speaker in this one is a guitar speaker). [This is an ideal way to use the ToneLab LE -- using it to get your distorted/modeled/zany sounds, while your solid-state amp or p.a. delivers the "clean" sounds or acts as the neutral medium. -JC.]

If it does sound like ass, I might consider getting a few good pedals instead, indeed, but I would be interested by the extra flexibility of the amp models.

I guess an alternative would be to buy one of Vox's modelling amps, but I hear their cleans aren't exactly to die for... :idk:

Edit: Thanks Jon :thu:

Pascal

03-28-2007, 05:40 AM

I guess I have my answer.... unless some of you guys disagree to what was said here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1582259...

Thanks.

Jon Chappell

03-28-2007, 05:43 AM

[1]For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can [2] run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

Good points all, dwerlin.

[2]It's a reasonable question to ask of any multi-effects modeler if you can use just the effects -- by bypassing the modeling section up front. The short answer is no. The longer answer is that it's hard to turn the ToneLab LE (or any other multi-effects unit) into a true "hardwire-bypass front-end going into hi-Z-input stomboxes." You can turn off the effects, but you can't jump to the effects in a hardwire-bypass fashion. That's asking the unit to reconfigure itself electrically, which is not feasible, at least for a unit in this price range. The ToneLab LE can't be all things to all people, so it strikes a compromise. A workaround is to turn off the amp modeling or find the best "neutral" setting that suits your particular destination.

[1]As dwerlin says, if you want no modeling and just effects, buy stomboxes (or find your own "neutral" in the modeling section). Note, too, dwerlin's comment about most multi-effects limiting you to the number/type of simultaneous effects. So buy the one modulation effect you need (in addition to the onboard one you'll use), and strap that on via the ToneLab LE's Insert Point. If you really require two onboard expression pedals and two or more onboard modulation effects (e.g., flanger and univibe), the ToneLab LE isn't for you. It puts the stress in its modeling section and in its Valve Reactor-based front end. Which is not to say it slouches in the effects dept. Vox has done a great job in the effects modeling section, too, the specifics of which I'll get into in future posts.

chiro972

03-28-2007, 06:33 AM

There is a noise gate and it can be adjusted...its rather sensative..

This is my BIG problem with all the modelers I have tried. I bought the RP250 and it is horrible on the presets in the way it cuts off the sustain in a very unnatural way. My Vox DA15 amp also does this. Both of those also have a digital sounding hiss that is there all the time whether the noise gate is on or off.

Perhaps all this is simply the fact that these things aren't really suited for the practice room/bedroom volumes I usually am playing at. At some presets, if you don't have the guitar volume cranked and you don't really dig in to the strings, no sound comes out at all.

Jon Chappell

03-28-2007, 06:46 AM

Perhaps all this is simply the fact that these things aren't really suited for the practice room/bedroom volumes I usually am playing at. At some presets, if you don't have the guitar volume cranked and you don't really dig in to the strings, no sound comes out at all.

In that case, it's not really the "things" themselves aren't suited, it's the noise gate setting. Simply turn down the threshold, or turn it off completely (and store that setting) for low-volume situations. It's true, though, factory presets are typically designed for the cacophonous and chaotic showroom floor of a music store. I often find them way overtweaked, and spend the first few moments auditioning multi-effects by knocking back the effects and gain settings.

hobbstweedle

03-28-2007, 06:52 AM

As BenJammin62 mentioned earlier, I had the same aliasing/zipper noise issue with the TLSE models I tried. I tried 3 new out of the box models from GC and they all exhibited a God-awful fizz/fuzz around the notes. Totally unusable.

I tried all 3 units that my local GC had in stock along with the floor model and they all exhibited this behaviour. It was very audible and even the manager of the store admitted that something was very wrong with these things.

Unfortuately, I'm travelling and not on my own computer or else I would attach an audio clip of this.

That said, I have some fly dates coming up and I HAVE to buy either the POD XT live or try the VOX LE model since I can't fly my Bogner XTC heads. I don't need all the FX routing capabilities or really a lot of models....just a decent classic rock crunch and a sparkly clean, and I'll be happy.

However, why VOX still left the wah on the same FX block as the dist, is somewhat baffling. They claimed to have tweaked the LE per their customer suggestions, but that was by far the most popular gripe about the SE, and they totally avoided it.

Again, my issues were with the SE model.

Jon Chappell

03-28-2007, 07:29 AM

I haven't run into any LE units with the aliasing/zipper noise you describe. The ones I've tried are quiet and smooth (with respect to digital artifacts). I don't think it's a problem, but I'll pass the info on to the Vox folks.

To your comment about the Wah and Distortion Pedal effects being on the same block:

These are both part of the modeled effects. So when you elect to use one of the Vox wah modeled effects, you use the same knobs to control those parameters that you would for the modeled distortion pedals in another setting. It's not an oversight, it's by design. You'd have to build in an entire wah stage -- with dedicated hardware and additional costs -- just for the wah (and then it begs the question, why the wah? Why not, say, the compressor?).

So Vox assumes if you select the wah as your modeled effect, you'll be dialing in your distortion downstream -- in the amp- & cabinet-modeling section, where you can program in Gain, VR Gain, EQ, and Channel Volume (in addition to the amp & cab selection). This is how you would solve this problem in the orthodox way -- using the modeled wah, and applying the ToneLab LE's best resources (the amp & cab modeling) to the distortion tasks. Or if you decide you want one of the modeled stompbox distortion units (like the "Octafuzz"), you can STILL use the expression pedal for wah by selecting the FILTRON (auto wah/envelope filter) effect in the mod section and assigning the manual parameter to the expression pedal. Not the same thing as a dedicated wah circuit in front of the Pedal modeling section, but a way to use the flexibility of the signal routing and amp/cab modeling to get "modeled Vox wah and distortion" or "modeled distortion and wah," respectively. I just don't want people to think you can't get simultaneous wah and distortion out of the ToneLab LE; you can, and in two ways.

hobbstweedle

03-28-2007, 07:57 AM

good info on the wah situation Jon. Thanks!

BenJammin62

03-28-2007, 11:59 AM

As BenJammin62 mentioned earlier, I had the same aliasing/zipper noise issue with the TLSE models I tried. I tried 3 new out of the box models from GC and they all exhibited a God-awful fizz/fuzz around the notes. Totally unusable.
I haven't run into any LE units with the aliasing/zipper noise you describe. The ones I've tried are quiet and smooth (with respect to digital artifacts). I don't think it's a problem, but I'll pass the info on to the Vox folks.Yeah, Jon - I'm not saying the noise is still there (this was several years ago and mine was a pre-ordered original desktop Tonelab - very early production) but I do know that for some reason many people are obliviouse to this type of high frequency noise until it is pointed out - but once you focus on it you will hear nothing else...it's that irritating. An almost identical noise issue came up in a more recent early beta of a software amp sim and nobody noticed until I pointed it out - even then it was some days later before everyone knew what I was talking about and then it was cured by the developer by oversampling in the "tube" components.

Again, I wasn't saying the noise is there in the Tonelab LE - just asking. Roger that! -JC :)

Oaksong

03-28-2007, 08:59 PM

Any idea how this compares to the GNX3000?

jeverist

03-28-2007, 11:33 PM

Not so much with the Boss GT-8. For one thing, most effects that you would use on a regular basis - wah, od/dist, chorus, delay, reverb are always available and can be used in any patch, and in any chaining order. You do have a limitation with effects that are in the FX-1 and FX-2 group(can only use one of each), however, everything from FX-1 is also available in FX-2 and FX-2 has only some of the most esoteric effects.

There would never be an issue such as not being able to combine wah, overdrive and univibe in the same patch. That seems to be a pretty serious design flaw - can't do a lot of Hendrix songs without having that available.

Marc G:

For some people, yes, it would be better to get stomp boxes...depending on how they use them. If people want to put together multiple boxes of the same effect category, then they would have to get individual pedals (since the ToneLab and every other unit under the sun limits you on what effects you can use simultaneously).

However, for the cost of 4 good stompboxes, you can get the ToneLab LE, and have MANY more effects for the same price.

Also, like me for instance, I want a unit that I can use for direct recording (so I want the amp/cab models for that), but I also want a unit that I can run in front of my tube amp WITHOUT having to use an amp/cab model to color the natural tone of my amp (so I can use just stompbox effects).

Jon Chappell

03-29-2007, 08:55 AM

There would never be an issue such as not being able to combine wah, overdrive and univibe in the same patch. That seems to be a pretty serious design flaw - can't do a lot of Hendrix songs without having that available.

But you could combine wah, amp-&-cab-modeled overdrive and flanger/rotary/phaser. And you'd still have delay and reverb available too.

It really isn't a "design flaw." I reserve that term for situations like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge or when the handle of my shower stall door scrapes against the sink (contractors ... don't get me started). This is more a choice by the designers to focus on the Valve Reactor front end coupled with amp & cab modeling, followed by modulation, delay, and reverb effects downstream. The modeled pedal section is up front as a bonus, and yes, you can't use both "U-Vibe" and "Vox Wah" simultaneously. But you're talking about very specific, named models that you want used simultaneously. If you want to model, say, Hendrix, you'd really need at least four simultaneous modeled effects: A Vox Wah, an Axis Fuzz or Roger Mayer Fuzz-Face, a Mayer Octavia, and a Uni-Vibe.

I'm working on the solo to "All Along the Watchtower," and am getting good results with the modeled Vox Wah and the vintage KT66-configured Marshall models. (KT66's are similar to 6550's, which Hendrix was known to have used.)

The Boss GT-6 has a versatile effects matrix. But the Vox ToneLab LE will appeal to the people who buy into its 12AX7 tube, the Valve Reactor analogue sound circuitry, and the dedicated amp models and cabinet models. Add to that the modeled pedals on the front end, with the deep modulation, delay and reverb effects on the back end, and you have some pretty wide choices available.

ouch1234

03-29-2007, 09:50 AM

I use the tonelab se..the le and the gnx3000 as well as the pod xtlive...and cybertwin se...so i have a good feel for modelers..i had the gt-8 and vg88 as well but i have to say for me the roland cosm stuff is just too sterile and 1 dimension to my ears..its not warm and analog at all.

Anyhow..the tonelab le is not really a scaled down version of the se..its less one pedal and the a/b amp switching but but has more selectability in the output section which is a plus for different applications.Overall the le "may" sound a bit smoother but again to my ears i dont notice much difference tonewise...if you have the se..you really dont need the le and the move to le may make you less happy if you are used to the 2nd pedal. There are some new effects on the le which are cool like tap delay and chorus tap..but the new metal pedal i could care less about as i am not a metal player. And the octave pedal and ring modulator...well those i would rather see replaced with more esoteric pedals and i do wish the le had a coice of 2 pedals( maybe an identical set of pedals on the same chicken switch so you can choose pedal1/2..easy to impliment on the same switch with an added button for effect2) ( set up like the amp/cabimet switch sharing the same switch with a button for each??)

But..This is not a flame to the pedal but a suggestion to vox in general.Overall the tonelabs sound fantastic and very warm and analog. The pod xtl with a variax is hard to beat for that dynamic of flexability..of course its a whole nother ballgame but to me the pod xtl has some sweet tones and options(i have all the modelpacks) and i like it in alot of ways much better then rolands offering. Of course the gt series by roland has versitile and endless effects for a tweekers fantasy but i found myself spening more time tweeking then playing because there are so so many options..you know what i mean right? "Maybe if i add this...oh yes i like that..but what about this setting up a notch...well...i am not sure...maybe if i change to this effect and add this...ect ect..."..it just can be an endless process...I like to K.I.S.S. and dial in an amp..cab..and effects 1-2-3 and save it and go....but thats just me...

The gmx3000 is a cool modeler and i like it and can get some really shimmery big tones from it..with the x-y pad thing in the edit software that has the ability to mix any amount of 2 amps and 2 cabs its pretty amazing what tones can come out of that..It has a very in your face sound and to me not as 3d as the tonelab stuff and somewhat flat sounding..i still get some neat tones and the pro features like xlr outs are very nice.

The adrelinn 2 is a cool tool for some wierd sounds and the amp models on it are decent but the interface to me is poor and cumbersome...but i like the unit itself for unique tones and effects.

The cybertwin se is a sweet amp(as is the cybertwin original which i had but sold) Its effects are very digital and clean but the reverbs are very nice as is the delay..I feel the ct sounds very warm and punchy but again its a little different animal then the tonelab as its an amp...

Back on topic the tonelab tube circuit really sounds warm and analogish to my ears and the le is a very solid versatile unit.

The next unit to go from my tools may just be the gnx3000...i am still debating this..

ouch1234

03-29-2007, 10:15 AM

For effects box only use into a guitar amp then defianately get a gt-8...but the amp and cab models will not be as pleasing and warm and analog as the tonelabs..period!

As far as that Wah workaround..thank you for the suggestion Jon. I have had the se for a while and replaced my tube with a mullard type by groovetubes and its dead quiet with no "zipper" sounds at all..But then again I am not looking for it either...All i can say is this...Listen to a real tube amp overdriven with stomp boxes on and tell me there is no noise or wierd sounds and i will say you are crazy...

Jon is correct in saying no modeler will be everything to all people..I tried the zoom 9.11 unit for 3 weeks and just hated its tone..the tubes are useless as you needed to change the settings of both tubes for almost every different amp and there is no ability to save the tube settings so imagine bending over every amp change to readjust the tubes settings on the zoom?! Rediculous..the build was great and edit software nice but it sounded like a swarm of bees in summer...for a metal guy that may be just what he is looking for but to me it sounded like crap!

So for someone else the zoom is "the best" so I say thats cool but for my needs its just not working...If you are a metal head i would have to say in my opinion..stay away from the tonelabs and go with the gnx3000 or gt-8..The tonelabs can get saturated but really shine in the classic amp-just breakingup to rock tones...I think tonelab le added the metal pedal to try to appeal to metal heads as a selling point(as alot of modelers do because to actually play wide open saturated tube amps at high volumes is not practical financially and just noise issue wise for most teenage metal heads at home with the parents...lol..and mose pros into metal will have a real tube amp they play at clubs with.

GCDEF

03-29-2007, 01:01 PM

But you could combine wah, amp-&-cab-modeled overdrive and flanger/rotary/phaser. And you'd still have delay and reverb available too.

That's not the same thing at all. None of those sound like a Univibe. When I used it I just used a standalone what with it, but it would be nice if they could come up with a way to remove the limitation.

Do you work for Vox or something?

Pascal

03-30-2007, 03:39 AM

Do you work for Vox or something?

Well.... or M.F.?

Note that the forum is named pro reviews, not con reviews.

;)

Jon Chappell

03-30-2007, 06:57 AM

Nah, I don't work for Vox, but I do work for Harmony Central, which as Pascal points out, is owned by M.F. But that's all in the pro review FAQ. My task is not to glorify or defend the ToneLab LE blindly, but to review it fairly. THAT'S what I'm paid to do -- offer my objective observations. I like what I see so far, and I'm taking the broad view. Not having a dedicated Uni-Vibe is not the deal killer for me that it might be for some. Neither is the absence of the second pedal. I like digital effects and modeling, and what I like here is the incorporation of those elements with the 12AX7/analog front end and the Valve Reactor technology ported over from their Valvetronix amp series.

In fact, I do have issues with some of the aspects of the ToneLab LE, including its interface design (the display shows you only the bank #, not the bank/program #), the MIDI implementation (using 5-pin ports vs. USB is questionable), and the tap tempo implementation (which is a great inclusion, but a little clunky to access easily).

But I'd like to focus on the attributes of the unit first, and stay on-topic for issue specific to the ToneLab LE. There's a lot to explore in this unit. I like healthy dialog on some of the choices Vox made, and it seems we've struck a nerve, specifically in the Pedal modeling section. It may bear repeating the structure, to follow the recent thread: The select models are up front, followed by the amp and cab modeling (the unit's best feature, IMHO), and followed by the mod, delay, and reverb sections. Here's the image of the chicken-head selectors, followed by the matrix that allows you vary the parameters:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/Tonelabchickenheads.jpg

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelabmatrix.jpg

andresc

03-30-2007, 10:07 AM

Not being very knowledgeable about audio equipment. I was wondering if some one can explain how the different settings relate to the different amp/cab types.
Then reason I ask is because none of the "Amp" presets sound right with my hot rod deluxe. The "Line" presets sound good; but i am sure it could be better kind of like the old tonelab...anyone?

These output settings are just suggestions (because there are other factors, like what guitar and picups you're using, too), and involve mostly EQ. Interestingly, I found that some of the programs sound better through my amp on the "Line" settings than the "amp" ones. So you're not alone here. Use your ear -- you can't screw anything up electrically speaking. --JC

Mr. Diamond

03-30-2007, 10:41 AM

DESPERATELY SEEKING SOLUTION.
I own a VOX AD50VT and am amzed at how it makes my RG100s seem so pale in comparision.

Have been considering the LE but have a few concerns:
A) Redundancy - Logically, I would go with a clean tone on the amp and use the LE modelling instead for increased versatiltiy. Your thoughts Mr. Chappell? Yes, you got it; the modeling works best in a "neutral" setting." The ToneLab LE is still an effects processor, and so has to live in harmony with your amp. (The analogy that comes to mind is using a distortion pedal with a tube amp. Certainly they can be used together, but you probably wouldn't max out the tube amp's distortion, and then kick in the stompbox on a high setting.) So try a clean setting first, and then see which aspects you like coming from the pedal vs. the amp. --Jon C.

B) In regards to all of this business regarding running multiple effects at once... Maybe its' simply because it's Friday and I'm in need of a Guinness or 2 but I'm not clear here. Can you run multiple effects at once? Example:Wah, delay, chorus? Yes, all three, and even four -- refer to the chicken-head schematic above -- because Pedal, Mod, Delay, and Reverb are all separate blocks. So, to take your question, you could choose, say, the Vox modeled wah, the Multi-Tap Chorus, the 2-Tap Delay, and toss in Canyon reverb. --JC

JC, I think this forum is great and am glad I discovered it. Thanks!This really helps when looking for new gear. I could have used this in the 80's. Ah, the '80s ... when modes were mighty, rack-gear ruled, and hair was humongous! :) --JC

Any and all info is appreciated.

Jon Chappell

03-30-2007, 11:00 AM

Okay, here's me messing around with the factory presets. I played these with an SSH Strat (w/Duncan Classic Stack pickups) through a 15-watt Matchless Spifire (tube amp w/EL84's), miked with a Shure SM57 about 3 inches off the grille. These are just the preset sounds, with no editing (except in #13, when I turned off the delay).

#11: COMCHORS (http://jonchappell.com/hc/ComChors.mp3) - Bank 1, Program 1 -- the first factory preset is a clean, compressed sound with slight chorus. Some rhythm-y stuff.

#13: BIGLEAD (http://jonchappell.com/hc/BigLead.mp3) - A huge sound for single-note lead work, but I took off the delay, because it was a little mushy. This is a blues-rock line in the style of Jimmy Page.

#32: S-R-V (http://jonchappell.com/hc/S-R-V.mp3): For some reason, this sounded good for fingerstyle blues (as well as for SRV's lead/rhythm hybrid style), so I noodled around with some Delta licks. Note how when I back off the attack, the notes clean up, and when I dig in (like on the fills in the E chord), the tone breaks up.

#62: POWERBLS (http://jonchappell.com/hc/PowerBls.mp3) - Good for rhythm or lead, so I did a little of both, inspired by Billy Gibbons. Eking out that pinch harmonic in the lead section was effortless, due no doubt to the tube-driven distortion.

#84: ERUPTION (http://jonchappell.com/hc/Eruption.mp3) - Hey, the name's right in the dang preset -- what else could I have played? :) Listen for the slow phaser effect over both the held chord and the tapping passages.

#74: THROAT (http://jonchappell.com/hc/Throat.mp3) - Here's a weird, totally non-guitar one to show off the bizarro effects, using the modeled Octave, Talk Mod, and Expression Pedal. I call it "Troglodytes on Acid meet Edgar Winter's Frankenstein."

Mr. Diamond

03-30-2007, 12:38 PM

Samples sound really nice. So, I'm clearly hearing combinations of effects. Where is the issue?

GCDEF

03-30-2007, 01:14 PM

Samples sound really nice. So, I'm clearly hearing combinations of effects. Where is the issue?

The issue, with me at least, is that there are limits to what you can combine. They're arranged into four groups and you get one from each group. I was expecting the next tonelab would remove that rather nasty limitation. It's disappointing that they didn't. I'm a Trower fan, and all the Trower effects are in one group, so it's not possible to use the same combination of pedals Trower or Hendrix used, which is a big annoyance to me. If you don't go for that sound, you may not care.

Mr. Diamond

03-30-2007, 01:28 PM

Now I get it. Did not realize it was only one per group. Makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mr. Diamond

03-30-2007, 01:31 PM

Is anyone out there running this with a Valvetronix amp?

GCDEF

03-30-2007, 01:41 PM

Is anyone out there running this with a Valvetronix amp?

What would the point of that be? The tonelab sounds best into a full range amp such as a powered PA speaker or keyboard amp.

telemike

03-30-2007, 03:20 PM

This would work for me as I like simple layouts and ease of tweaking.

Mr. Diamond

03-30-2007, 07:18 PM

What would the point of that be? The tonelab sounds best into a full range amp such as a powered PA speaker or keyboard amp.

Good question – I was actually hoping someone would provide feedback to validate my points.

I have been very happy with the AD50VT. I’ve owned Marshall’s and swore by my Randall’s for the 20 years.

I bought the AD50VT so I would have something small to carry around for jamming. I never expected the quality of sound and performance I have had so far.

On thing is my Boss pedals – all 80’s era – sound like crap with Vox. I’ve been considering upgrading my pedals. My Cry-Baby is also on it’s last leg.

So along comes the Tonelab LE. I’m already impressed with Vox quality and workmanship. The amp is built like a tank. As I understand the LE is built tough, has high quality effects, built in wah/expression/volume pedal and tuner.

Have been considering using the AD50VT on a clean setting and using the LE for effects & modeling. Am also assuming this will give me wider range of tonal options along the lines of channel switching – Vox could have done better than the dopey channel switching box for the AD50VT.

This gives me the effects I'm looking for, increases the versatiltiy of my sound and all of the other benefits as well for a reasonable price.

If I go with buying new pedals delay/phase shifter/chorus/tube OD/Wah, I'll spend considerably more than 400.

Then, if I ever have to use my Randalls, I can utilize the LE for improving the sound overall.

So aside from other items of interest for the LE, this is why I am considering it in conjunction with the AD50VT.

JC, would be curious to hear from you as well on this.

Jon Chappell

03-31-2007, 06:12 AM

JC, would be curious to hear from you as well on this.

Mr. D:

You can run the Vox ToneLab LE into an AD50VT or your Randalls, either way, and here's why:

A ToneLab LE is a processor. It's not a substitute for an amp, and Vox recognizes that you'll be playing through SOME kind of amplification device, most likely a guitar amp. (You might also go through a P.A. or full-range amp -- a keyboard and acoustic-guitar amp being two examples.) Any model mfr. (Line 6, etc., included) knows that as a guitarist, you're likely going to be putting your modeler through a combo amp or head & cab configuration, and that's why they offer "compensation modes." Modeling processors wouldn't sell very well if the designers didn't make them to go with combo amps.

To address this question, the ToneLab LE offers five (3 amp, 2 line) output modes for different destinations:

1. AP1: for an amp with a clean sound, such as a U.S.-made open-back combo.

2. AP2: strong and distinctive midrange, UK-made open-back combo.

3. AP3: head and cab, with 4x12 closed-back cab.

4. LINE 1: For the S/PDIF (digital) out or connecting to a power amp input (that would be your P.A. or keyboard amp), a recorder, or other Line input (mixer, etc.).

5. LINE 2: Same as LINE 1, but allows you to employ the three-band EQ (w/sweepable mid), using the 5 value knobs to control Trim, Lo-Gain (low freq. boost), Mid Freq (midrange freq.), Mid Gain (midrange boost), Hi Gain (high boost).

BTW, the Global EQ was one of the additions to the LE from the SE, and to me this is a great bonus. These are suggestions, of course. Your mileage may vary (and we've discussed this aspect previously in this thread).

So although running a ToneLab LE through the AD50VT makes sense, running it through any other combo amp -- modeling or otherwise -- does too. Remember, it's just a processor. You have to set up both processor and amp to work with each other anyway. So the question is not whether a modeling processor is appropriate for a modeling amp, but which processor do I buy for my sound? And the answer is not in some unwritten rule about which modeling technologies go with which amp technologies (Otherwise we'd be debating questions like, "Can a Tube Screamer only go with a solid-state amp -- or is it a tube amp?"), but What do I like in a processor? How do I like to sculpt sounds and does the processor let me work in that way? What do my ears tell me?

If you're a Randall/Marshall guy, I'm suspecting you'd like working with -- and enjoying the sonic benefits of -- the ToneLab LE. If you listen to my samples in the post above (Jon's audio clips (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21599203&postcount=49)), you can tell that I'm a classic/blues/rock and country-rock guy, and while I need digital effects like everyone else (hey, I have to make a living, you know), sculpting the sound in the front end has been the most rewarding aspect of working with this unit. (Not that I don't like other modelers, too, for various reasons, but I'm staying on topic here because this is a Pro Review on the ToneLab LE.)

So I know you've used Marshalls, Randalls, and Valvetronix amps. What kind of music do you play?

Mr. Diamond

03-31-2007, 09:09 AM

JC - We need more people like you out there. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and with details. Hey, this is fun. Beats workin'! -- Jon C.

In regards to what kind of music do I play... I still write a lot and my writing (and playing) has gotten more bluesy.

Back in the day, it was predominantly, heavy rock though my writing expanded as I said 'f*** all of the limits' in regards to what 'heavy bands' were supposed to play. I saw the formulas take root and wanted nothing to do with them - in fact, I walked away from the business side of things for that reason. Saw the 'hair band' formula take effect, followed by the 'grunge formula'. Sad how the business can dictate the music that is heard and provide the public with so much formulaic crap.

My influences were heavy, bluesy as well as 70's soul (Curtis Mayfield, Isaac Hayes) and a lot more. Mayfield's playing, as you probably know, influenced Hendrix -- especially in the rhythm stuff like in "The Wind Cries Mary." --JC

We went from guitar heroes being a good thing to not knowing how to play your instrument being a good thing. Yup. It's all about cycles. --JC

My tastes are diverse enough to allow for a minimalistic approach as long as their is quality.

As far as gear: Had a Marshall (surprise), forgot the model. Had the master volume and single channel. Ran an Ashley SC-40 pre-Amp and that provided for major punch and a unique tone. Problem I had with the Marshall overall was in terms of consistency from gig to gig.

Switched to Randall (retired the SC-40) and used to laugh at the amount of guitar players who would not believe it wasn't a tube amp. They'd actually ask to look inside the head. Has amazing punch and tone and consistency.
The head weighed a ton and seemed more cosmetic since there were no tubes. Purchased the rack mounted version without plugging in. This was my first lesson in regards to faith in manufacturers. They changed the damned amp!!! Took a lot more tweaking to get a good sound. My buddy Gil Parris -- a respected NYC-based jazz/rock/blues instrumentalist -- gets a great sound out of his Randalls. And no one believes him either when he reveals he's got an all-solid-state signal chain. --JC

As you mentioned the 80's twas the time for rack gear.So I bought a Chandler Tube Driver - Designed by BK Butler, a Rocktron Hush and a Roland GP8 complete with church organ style pedal board. You have good taste! --JC

This is where I laugh and cry over the fact that players can get a better sound than guys like me did back in the day for a helluva a lot less!

I played a Korg Pandora once - my first introduction to modeled gear - and could not believe something that fit in my palm sounded better then my stack and rack mounted gear.

Anyway, now that I've bored the sense out of you... The goal is to build a new, less hernia inducing rig that will allow for the mulitple influences of my playing come out (not in order and just to name a few - Allman, Betts, Page, Skynyrd, Lizzy, Rhoads, Hendrix, Van Halen, Schenker, Vaughn, Clapton, Guy, Santana, Vai) without tapdancing across mutliple pedals. Well, those are my influences, too. You mention Lizzy ... Gary Moore is one of my all-time faves -- the way he combines blues with virtuosic technique without going into mindless trickery. --JC

Thanks again for your info. Has been phenomenal. Please pass on my comments to the powers that be. You mean to my wife? :) Thanks, truly. --JC

GCDEF

03-31-2007, 11:16 AM

I have to disagree with John on this. You really want a full range amp and here's why. Every guitar amp adds its own color to the sound and every guitar amp speaker has a limited frequency range and most of them have an uneven frequency response.

The Tonelab, and other modelers are designed to emulate a whole host of amp and speaker combinations. Some of those amps and speaker sims will attempt to reproduce sounds that a regular combo may not be able to reproduce. For example the 8" speaker sim will probably be putting out higher frequencies than a typical guitar 12" can reproduce. You'd lose the ability for it to accurately reproduce some of its models. Additionally, it it's trying to recreate a certain type of frequency response, and you run it through another cab with it's own frequency quirks, you'll defeat the accuracy of that model too.

I gigged with a Tonelab SE every weekend for over a year and used it through a full range amp with a line direct to PA and it sounded great. You may get good sounds plugged into another guitar amp, but the accuracy of the models will be diminished and you'll be limiting the variety you can get out of it.

As to using it primarily as an effects processor, because of the limitations I've mentioned, I don't think it's a very good choice.

One of the reasons I gave up on it and went back to analog was I like the ability to be able to tweak on the fly. Different guitars, rooms, clubs, crowd sizes, etc. all affect the sound you're getting. When you rely on presets, you'd kind of stuck with what you program at home, which might not sound at all the same in a club. Sometimes you just need to reach down and turn a knob in a hurry. On any programmed processor, you lose that ability.

Jon Chappell

03-31-2007, 12:31 PM

I gigged with a Tonelab SE every weekend for over a year and used it through a full range amp with a line direct to PA and it sounded great. You may get good sounds plugged into another guitar amp, but the accuracy of the models will be diminished and you'll be limiting the variety you can get out of it.

As to using it primarily as an effects processor, because of the limitations I've mentioned, I don't think it's a very good choice.

I agree with the first statement: you'll get a truer reproduction of the model out of a full-range, non-coloring, flat-frequency (i.e., "neutral") system. (Though you won't sound bad with a combo amp -- you just have to tweak it; that's what the five output modes are for.) But this is true of all modelers; it is not specific to the ToneLab LE.

I disagree with the second statement. I think it's an excellent choice. To me, the signal topology has great appeal, and for my playing, I can feel as well as hear the results of the Valve Reactor technology at work. And I don't find the effects section limiting. (Though it's true that you can't use more than one modeled pedal or mod/delay/reverb from any one bank. Study again the chicken-head image above, or better yet, download the manual from http://www.voxamps.co.uk for a complete list of effects and their editable parameters.)

But each guitarist may, upon testing this and other modelers, prefer something else.

To each his own.

So CDEF, I'm sure you understand why I will continue to review the features of the ToneLab LE here -- because it's germane to the forum title. Stay tuned. ...

GCDEF

03-31-2007, 12:40 PM

I disagree with the second statement. I think it's an excellent choice. To me, the signal topology has great appeal, and for my playing, I can feel as well as hear the results of the Valve Reactor technology at work. And I don't find the effects section limiting. (Though it's true that you can't use more than one modeled pedal or mod/delay/reverb from any one bank. Study again the chicken-head image above, or better yet, download the manual from http://www.voxamps.co.uk for a complete list of effects and their editable parameters.)

But each guitarist may, upon testing this and other modelers, prefer something else.

To each his own.

So CDEF, I'm sure you understand why I will continue to review the features of the ToneLab LE here -- because it's germane to the forum title. Stay tuned. ...

While cool, the valve reactor isn't in use if you're just using the effects, so I stand by my statement that as an effects processor, that it's a long way from being as flexible as say a GT-8. Yes, on this we agree; if you don't need the VR for your front-end sound treatment (where the Vox puts a lot of emphasis), and you just need the effects, other units offer more variety and flexibility in this area. --JC

Reviews are great. I'm just trying to offer some perspective as a weekend warrior who gigged with one live for over a year. You're touched on its good points - mainly really good, realistic amp tone. I'm just trying to point out how they could make it better and where it falls short. Not really sure why it needs to be stickied in two forums though unless Musicians Friend is trying to blow them out or something.

Jon Chappell

03-31-2007, 01:01 PM

Not really sure why it needs to be stickied in two forums though unless Musicians Friend is trying to blow them out or something.

No, that's just me blowing my own horn. (It's actually stickied only in one forum, the Electric Guitar forum, and that was my own doing. Only the pro review FAQ's and such are stickied here.) We get paid by the page view, ya know, ;) so I'm trying to drum up business for myself. :)

GCDEF

03-31-2007, 01:14 PM

No, that's just me blowing my own horn. (It's actually stickied only in one forum, the Electric Guitar forum, and that was my own doing. Only the pro review FAQ's and such are stickied here.) We get paid by the page view, ya know, ;) so I'm trying to drum up business for myself. :)

Excellent. I'll stick a paper clip in the refresh button for a while for you. :)

WaveMagnet

03-31-2007, 05:37 PM

Hi, 1st timer here.
This is a great thread and it's helped me learn a lot about this device and amp modeling multi effect units. :thu: Thanks! -- Jon C.

I have a 1979 Music Man 112 RP. One of the amps features is an effects loop input with both a hi gain and lo gain inputs. I want to confirm that I would use the send and receive inputs on the TLLE to support this configuration? You would use the *amp's* send and receive for the ToneLab LE when you want to use just the TL's effects (by turning off the amp & cab sim.). The ToneLab has two output modes dedicated to this purpose. But the send and receive on the ToneLab LE are for inserting an effect (your favorite stompbox or wah) into the unit itself. --JC

And does the TLLE have a physical/hard bypass switch capability like the Digitech RPxxx's can do? Yes. You just press 'n' hold the current program and voila! --JC

Is it possible to chain together multiple stomp boxes and plug them into the input that is open for external effects or is it one additional effect? Multiple effects are fine, and it's a good point; thanks for bringing it up. --JC

Thank you!

GWS5987

03-31-2007, 06:28 PM

Guitarching

03-31-2007, 07:01 PM

John,

I am looking for multi-fx unit for use at gigs (no amp sim), will the new LE version be good for this purpose?

Yes, you can simply turn off both the amp sim and the cab sim, and the signal passes straight through to the effects section. In fact, you can turn off any stage of the ToneLab LE. Turn them all off, and there's no discernible difference (tone, level, self-noise) between that and the Bypass state. --Jon C.

Tony

GCDEF

03-31-2007, 07:03 PM

Hello GCDEF,

I appreciate your input. What are you currently using for gigs (amp, pedals etc).

TIA

George

Back to analog, so it's various guitars into

Samson Airline wireless
Boss TU-2
Vox V848 wah
MJM Blues Devil
Fulltone mini Deja Vibe
EH Pulsar Tremolo
Visual Sound H2O
Boss FV-50L volume pedal (in fx loop)

OverDriven

04-01-2007, 09:09 PM

I agree with the first statement: you'll get a truer reproduction of the model out of a full-range, non-coloring, flat-frequency (i.e., "neutral") system. (Though you won't sound bad with a combo amp -- you just have to tweak it; that's what the five output modes are for.) But this is true of all modelers; it is not specific to the ToneLab LE.

I disagree with the second statement. I think it's an excellent choice. To me, the signal topology has great appeal, and for my playing, I can feel as well as hear the results of the Valve Reactor technology at work. And I don't find the effects section limiting. (Though it's true that you can't use more than one modeled pedal or mod/delay/reverb from any one bank. Study again the chicken-head image above, or better yet, download the manual from http://www.voxamps.co.uk for a complete list of effects and their editable parameters.)

But each guitarist may, upon testing this and other modelers, prefer something else.

To each his own.

So CDEF, I'm sure you understand why I will continue to review the features of the ToneLab LE here -- because it's germane to the forum title. Stay tuned. ...

First off, great review and thanks so much for it. I'm probably buying this unit soon. I do agree with GCDEF though. For the same price you can pick up a G-Major which will absolutely blow the Tonelab away as far as effects go. Buy used and you can get a Midi controller and the Gmajor for nearly the same price.

GCDEF:
I'm considering running the exact same setup as you. Tonelab into around 5000 watts of PA for live use. What kind of music did you play with it, and was the sound "huge" enough? My trouble with the POD is it can sound kind of small at times...mainly for high gain rhythms. Basically I was wondering if you could give a review of this setup?

adambomb

04-01-2007, 10:41 PM

how would you say it compares to the zoom g2.9tt tone-wise and in general.
i don't think i've read anyone bring that one up yet.

OverDriven

04-01-2007, 11:29 PM

how would you say it compares to the zoom g2.9tt tone-wise and in general.
i don't think i've read anyone bring that one up yet.

Pretty sure you mean the Zoom G9.2tt. IMO that thing sounds like a cheap distortion pedal. Nothing touches the Tonelab tonewise IMO.

GCDEF

04-02-2007, 07:11 AM

GCDEF:
I'm considering running the exact same setup as you. Tonelab into around 5000 watts of PA for live use. What kind of music did you play with it, and was the sound "huge" enough? My trouble with the POD is it can sound kind of small at times...mainly for high gain rhythms. Basically I was wondering if you could give a review of this setup?

I ran the Tonelab to a Carvin AG100D, which is like a little combo sized PA for stage monitoring, then a line from there to the PA. The sound was excellent. No significant difference in sound or feel from a regular amp. My two beefs were lack of flexibility in the effects and having to rely on presets. It sounds WAY better than a POD.

Jon Chappell

04-02-2007, 07:43 AM

My two beefs were lack of flexibility in the effects and having to rely on presets. It sounds WAY better than a POD.

Just to clarify to point about presets: the ToneLab LE will operate in "stompbox mode," where you can turn individual effects on and off within a preset. For example, you could set up both a modeled pedal distortion (such as "SUPER OD") and a warmer overdrive courtesy of the amp & cab modeling. Then you could selectively stomp on the SUPER OD for lead passages. Same with the effects -- maybe kick on the MOD DELAY just for the solo section, kick it off for the verses.

Jon Chappell

04-02-2007, 07:54 AM

First off, great review and thanks so much for it. I'm probably buying this unit soon. I do agree with GCDEF though. For the same price you can pick up a G-Major which will absolutely blow the Tonelab away as far as effects go. Buy used and you can get a Midi controller and the Gmajor for nearly the same price.

OverDriven, I'm glad you're finding this forum helpful and that you think highly enough of the ToneLab LE that you plan to purchase it soon.

About your point above: You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the G-Major, but I'd just like to point out that, yes, you would need a separate MIDI controller, because the G-Major is a single-rack-space processor (just want to make sure readers know this). Also, you're comparing the price of a used system to a new one. You could also buy a used ToneLab LE (though you might have to wait a bit, as it's brand new). Between these two factors -- different hardware paradigms and new v. used prices -- we're approaching an apples-and-oranges comparison in a multi-effects solution.

GCDEF

04-02-2007, 08:38 AM

Just to clarify to point about presets: the ToneLab LE will operate in "stompbox mode," where you can turn individual effects on and off within a preset. For example, you could set up both a modeled pedal distortion (such as "SUPER OD") and a warmer overdrive courtesy of the amp & cab modeling. Then you could selectively stomp on the SUPER OD for lead passages. Same with the effects -- maybe kick on the MOD DELAY just for the solo section, kick it off for the verses.

True to a point, but as soon as you switch patches or change the effect type in a group, your "stompbox" settings are gone.

adambomb

04-02-2007, 09:26 AM

Pretty sure you mean the Zoom G9.2tt. IMO that thing sounds like a cheap distortion pedal. Nothing touches the Tonelab tonewise IMO.

yeah the G9, i keep mixing it up....

really? iv'e read good things about both the toneloab and the zoom g9,

but i take it you feel the tonelab has more realistic heavy rhythm sounds, etc? i think the hardest thing on a modeller is to get a realistic high-gain rhythm sound. i don't play all high-gain by a mile, but these days it's got to be there for covers and stuff.

Jon Chappell

04-02-2007, 10:23 AM

True to a point, but as soon as you switch patches or change the effect type in a group, your "stompbox" settings are gone.

Unless you save along the way (two quick taps of the Write key); then if/when you go back, you'll have your most recently edited setting -- just like in a stompbox. If you really want stompbox mode (and many times you do), that's how you'd do it. (You can copy preset banks to have your "working stompbox" version in addition to your master version, when you want to step up and down through full programs.) And again, we're talking about points common to many m-f/x, not just the TL LE.

WaveMagnet

04-02-2007, 10:36 AM

Thanks for your answers.

I'm pretty convinced that the TLLE approach to constructing tone is pretty spot on for what my real needs and wants are at this time. As a total noob to this aspect of guitar playing, the interface with it's knobs really appeals to me. And I'm confident that there is enough tweakability in the TLLE for me to create some great tones and sounds and also "learn what I don't know" providing me ample time to bitch about those things in some future post.....haha.

Time to save my lunch money!

wireman1957

04-02-2007, 11:19 AM

Hi im new to the forum & by the way its great .
i just purchased the new Tonelab LE and was wondering how i can turn off the amp modeling & the Cabinet modeling so i can use it as just a effects unit or is it possable.
and is it possable to set up the control switch to do this .
i will be using it into a AB switch into a Peavey classic 50 212 & also a Marshall JCM2000 DSK401 tube amps.
will this work as i want to be able to switch between the two amps so i can use the effects on both of them.
any help would be apreciated.
Dave!

GCDEF

04-02-2007, 11:40 AM

Hi im new to the forum & by the way its great .
i just purchased the new Tonelab LE and was wondering how i can turn off the amp modeling & the Cabinet modeling so i can use it as just a effects unit or is it possable.
and is it possable to set up the control switch to do this. Yes, see my later post on this. --JC
i will be using it into a AB switch into a Peavey classic 50 212 & also a Marshall JCM2000 DSK401 tube amps.
will this work as i want to be able to switch between the two amps so i can use the effects on both of them.
any help would be apreciated.
Dave!

If I remember correctly, just push the button under the amp selector knob to turn the sims off. Roger that. --Jon C.

GWS5987

04-02-2007, 01:08 PM

Unless you save along the way (two quick taps of the Write key); then if/when you go back, you'll have your most recently edited setting -- just like in a stompbox. If you really want stompbox mode (and many times you do), that's how you'd do it. (You can copy preset banks to have your "working stompbox" version in addition to your master version, when you want to step up and down through full programs.) And again, we're talking about points common to many m-f/x, not just the TL LE.

Hello Jon,

My daughter just called to tell me my LE arrived today. Uh oh. Should we tell your boss that you'll be knocking off early? Or at least that you'll be distracted? :)--JC I want you to know that I've appreciated your input. And, I'll probably bother you with a question or two too. Please feel free to "bother away!" Note the recent discussion on turning off the amp/cab sims, too. And post some tones, if the spirit moves you! --JC

Take care,

George

Jon Chappell

04-02-2007, 02:14 PM

i just purchased the new Tonelab LE and was wondering how i can turn off the amp modeling & the Cabinet modeling so i can use it as just a effects unit or is it possable.
and is it possable to set up the control switch to do this .

Just to further expand on the affirmative answer provided by GCDEF (with my edit), and to address your other question:

Yes, you can assign the "on/off" status of the amp or amp/cab sim. to the Control switch, and you can do this in either program mode or stompbox mode.

The designers of the ToneLab LE obviously recognized that people would want to turn off the amp/cab sim to use just the effects, and so made this feature available in both modes.

OverDriven

04-02-2007, 02:52 PM

Hello Jon,

My daughter just called to tell me my LE arrived today. Uh oh. Should we tell your boss that you'll be knocking off early? Or at least that you'll be distracted? :)--JC I want you to know that I've appreciated your input. And, I'll probably bother you with a question or two too. Please feel free to "bother away!" Note the recent discussion on turning off the amp/cab sims, too. And post some tones, if the spirit moves you! --JC

Take care,

George

Would you mind replying in the normal way instead of editing people's posts? Maybe I'm slow, but it just gets a little confusing sometimes. :)

Jon Chappell

04-02-2007, 03:07 PM

Would you mind replying in the normal way instead of editing people's posts? Maybe I'm slow, but it just gets a little confusing sometimes. :)

OverDriven, just so you and others know, I do it to save space. I find the linear fashion of reading repeated quotes tedious, especially if the exchanges occur out of sequence (that is, several posts get in between the question and the answer). My rationale is, why not answer the question right then and there? This forum is a little different, in that it's more "tightly moderated" by me, but I try not to abuse the privilege. I would never use the ability to edit posts, for example, to refute someone's argument or undermine an original post (though I have occasionally, such as in GCDEF's posts, echoed my agreement; I think this is okay, while the converse is not). I think you'll see that's true with the folks who've disagreed with me here.

Also, if a poster posits multiple questions, I find it more efficient to simply interject (placing my edits in bold italics so they're offset from the original). Otherwise, everything gets listed twice.

But I appreciate your point, so I'll consider your request going forward.

papa taco

04-02-2007, 05:26 PM

Any well known professional guitarists using the Tone Lab LE or SE's as effects into tube amp rigs?

andresc

04-02-2007, 09:47 PM

In the end even though we all agree on the takeaways and the add ons..the question is: do we have better sound? do we feel happy with our new purchase?. My 2 cents: I think is great..i had the desktop version for 1 year and this is definitely an improvement in a lot of levels. this are Just a few of my most liked features!:

1: The master EQ; What a difference it makes when trying to get good sound out of your standard combo amp!
2: One interesting thing i noticed was that none of the heavy distortion presets use the "new" metal pedal effect; and they sound really good; maybe vox is just trying to show us what a little time spent in learning the controls can do.
3: As a MAC user one of the things that attracted. me to the desktop version (besides price) was the optical out. Now is available In the new tonelab LE.
4. The color..it LOOKS GOOD IN SILVER OK!!

In conclusion : If you are new to the Tonelab, or had the desktop version; The combination of effects, Master EQ, and output options make this an attractive choice. So Please, I beg all of you Start concentrating on getting some patches out there, and discussing problems you may have with your "first batch" of tonelab le's. Discussing which one is better is counter productive to the purpose of a topic called NEW: VOX TONELAB LE.

andresc

04-02-2007, 09:53 PM

Yes, you can assign the "on/off" status of the amp or amp/cab sim. to the Control switch, and you can do this in either program mode or stompbox mode.

The designers of the ToneLab LE obviously recognized that people would want to turn off the amp/cab sim to use just the effects, and so made this feature available in both modes.

Does this mean that when The Tonelab Le is connected to my Hotrod Deluxe I can have the stompbox act like a "stompbox" in front of my clean amp settings?

Jon Chappell

04-03-2007, 06:26 AM

Does this mean that when The Tonelab Le is connected to my Hotrod Deluxe I can have the stompbox act like a "stompbox" in front of my clean amp settings?

Yes. Follow these two steps:
1. Turn off the amp and cab sims, leaving just these stompbox stages active:

STOMPBOX MODE
Modeled Pedal -> Volume/Exp. Pedal -> Modulation -> Delay -> Reverb

2. Plug into the HRD's Input 2, the one for hi-gain inputs (don't plug into the HRD's Power Amp In -- that's the jack you'd use if you were using only the modulation effects).

Also, you can add your own pedal via the TL's insert jacks, and you can change the order of the Modulation/Delay/Reverb.

santos

04-03-2007, 07:19 AM

Would you mind replying in the normal way instead of editing people's posts? Maybe I'm slow, but it just gets a little confusing sometimes. :)

I just want to agree with Jon's reply to this. OverDriven, when I first saw Jon doing this it certainly took a bit to figure out what was going on, but now I think it's a much more efficient way for him to interact with those who ask questions.

Jon Chappell

04-03-2007, 07:23 AM

I just want to agree with Jon's reply to this ... I think it's a much more efficient way for him to interact with those who ask questions.

Thanks for your input, Santos. I think I will still only do this with direct questions to me, or where a quick answer dispatches several rapid-fire questions. I think it works better if my answers are short (and shorter than the post!).

777Brad

04-03-2007, 07:29 AM

How about the acoustic simulator. Do I understand that the ToneLab LE has one? So do I understand that it should make any electric sound somewhat like an acoustic?

Jon Chappell

04-03-2007, 08:24 AM

How about the acoustic simulator. Do I understand that the ToneLab LE has one? So do I understand that it should make any electric sound somewhat like an acoustic?

Glad you asked that, Brad. We haven't talked about this much, and the inclusion of the new acoustic simulator is one of the changes from the SE to the LE. Interestingly, Vox didn't include the modeled acoustic simulator in any of its 40 factory presets. So I created one here:

Acoustic Simulator (http://www.jonchappell.com/hc/ToneLab_Acoustic.mp3)

GCDEF

04-03-2007, 08:30 AM

Glad you asked that, Brad. We haven't talked about this much, and the inclusion of the new acoustic simulator is one of the changes from the SE to the LE. Interestingly, Vox didn't include the modeled acoustic simulator in any of its 40 factory presets. So I created one here:

http://www.jonchappell.com/hc/ToneLab_Acoustic.mp3

I'm pretty sure there was one on the SE.

Hyperborea

04-03-2007, 12:47 PM

Is there any news on when the patch library software will be available for the Mac?

As for the in-line answers, I prefer that you don't do this. When you are following a board you almost never go back and you expect all the new posts with new information to be after the last post you read.

Thanks.

GCDEF

04-03-2007, 01:11 PM

As for the in-line answers, I prefer that you don't do this. When you are following a board you almost never go back and you expect all the new posts with new information to be after the last post you read.

Thanks.

I have to be honest and say I found it somewhat disconcerting to see somebody else had add his comments to my post.

And Jon, will you please unsticky the crosspost in electric guitars.

adambomb

04-03-2007, 01:19 PM

i still wanna know if the LE sounds better than a zoom G9 through a tech 21 power engine or some such rig with no preamp coloring.

777Brad

04-03-2007, 04:34 PM

And Jon, will you please unsticky the crosspost in electric guitars.
GCDEF, what, do you work for for Zoom or something? Why are you so concerned with stickies? No, wait, I don't want to know. Let's just stay on topic, okay?

Glad you asked that, Brad. We haven't talked about this much, and the inclusion of the new acoustic simulator is one of the changes from the SE to the LE. Interestingly, Vox didn't include the modeled acoustic simulator in any of its 40 factory presets. So I created one here:

Acoustic Simulator (http://www.jonchappell.com/hc/ToneLab_Acoustic.mp3)

There is no preset acoustic sim? I'm probaby reading this wrong, but what about what it says on pg 35 of http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/PDF/ToneLab%20LE_Manual.pdf
?

Nice playing, btw. :thu: Thanks for that.

Jon Chappell

04-03-2007, 07:22 PM

There is no preset acoustic sim? I'm probaby reading this wrong, but what about what it says on pg 35 ...
Nice playing, btw. :thu: Thanks for that.

No, I'm saying there's no factory preset in bank/program mode that uses the acoustic simulator model. The factory presets, of course, are designed to show off the unit using all the resources the ToneLab offers, written by really smart product guys using all the right effects and settings. Vox does a shout-out for the acoustic sim. in the promo blurb: "The acoustic simulator now offers the choice between 3 popular acoustic guitar types plus a resonator." But they didn't design a preset around it.

I think the modeled sim. is quite powerful, but it means I have to design my own patch from scratch, and you know how I hate to work. :)

Oh, thanks for the props on the playing, Brad. That was an intro to the Eagles' "Desperado" (in A), followed by "Alice's Restaurant" with a harp-style tag (in C).

GCDEF

04-03-2007, 07:29 PM

GCDEF, what, do you work for for Zoom or something? Why are you so concerned with stickies? No, wait, I don't want to know. Let's just stay on topic, okay?

I've been on topic all through this thread.

JMP2203

04-03-2007, 10:28 PM

its posible some higain clips with the LE direct to the pc soundcard? or mixer board?

thanks!

Jon Chappell

04-04-2007, 05:28 AM

its posible some higain clips with the LE direct to the pc soundcard? or mixer board?

Yes, the ToneLab LE has two output modes dedicated to feeding a soundcard or a mixer.

OverDriven

04-04-2007, 06:56 AM

Yes, the ToneLab LE has two output modes dedicated to feeding a soundcard or a mixer.

I think he is asking you to make some clips.

JMP2203

04-04-2007, 08:31 AM

I think he is asking you to make some clips.

:thu:

Mr. Diamond

04-04-2007, 02:53 PM

No, I'm saying there's no factory preset in bank/program mode that uses the acoustic simulator model. The factory presets, of course, are designed to show off the unit using all the resources the ToneLab offers, written by really smart product guys using all the right effects and settings. Vox does a shout-out for the acoustic sim. in the promo blurb: "The acoustic simulator now offers the choice between 3 popular acoustic guitar types plus a resonator." But they didn't design a preset around it.

I think the modeled sim. is quite powerful, but it means I have to design my own patch from scratch, and you know how I hate to work. :)

Oh, thanks for the props on the playing, Brad. That was an intro to the Eagles' "Desperado" (in A), followed by "Alice's Restaurant" with a harp-style tag (in C).

Am looking forward to checking out the resonator.

Mr. Diamond

04-04-2007, 03:02 PM

So I'm in North Carolina on Monday for business and lo and behold there's a ... large well known music store. I walk in and figure I'll get a chance to check the TL LE out. Staff didn't seem to care who was in the store or what they were doing. Matthews needs a new store or some serious attention.

Every guitar I picked up (2 PRS, 2 Les Pauls, an SG, Jackson w/ EMG 81 & 81, some Schecter (same pickups), several classicals and a steel string) was completely out of tune.

Every amp I plugged into had a bad input jack. Was never asked if I needed help and for that matter neither were the other 8 guys in the place. Now that I'm back home will have to test drive locally.

Jon Chappell

04-04-2007, 05:56 PM

I think he is asking you to make some clips.

D'oh! Now I get it. Okay, here's a great clip -- recorded direct -- which I found in another forum by guitarist Russ Gann. He's given me permission to post it here.

This is a metal-edged guitar groove done with a ToneLab LE plugged directly into an M-Audio Project Mix I/O and recorded with Sonar. The clip is 3:19, but the guitar solo starts at about 1:58. Listen to the whole track if you can, so you can hear him lay down the rhythm before wailing like an animal over the top. Both rhythm and lead were recorded using the ToneLab.

Russ Gann plays ToneLab LE direct (http://jonchappell.com/hc/040207.wma)

Here's Russ's website, for more info: http://groups.msn.com/TheGuitarsOfRuss/home.htm

Nice playing, Russ; thanks for the clip.

Jon Chappell

04-04-2007, 06:12 PM

Staff didn't seem to care who was in the store or what they were doing. Matthews needs a new store or some serious attention.

Every guitar I picked up (2 PRS, 2 Les Pauls, an SG, Jackson w/ EMG 81 & 81, some Schecter (same pickups), several classicals and a steel string) was completely out of tune.

Every amp I plugged into had a bad input jack. Was never asked if I needed help and for that matter neither were the other 8 guys in the place. Now that I'm back home will have to test drive locally.

Amazing. In this day and age, where music gear is such a commodity item, you'd think retailers would understand the importance of service. No excuses for that. I mean, I like being left alone in a music store when I want to be left alone, but when I want help, then I expect service. And good sales people should be able to read customers in this regard. CompUSA recently closed half their stores, and most people reported getting terrible service (I'm one of them) every time they went to one. You have to wonder if that wasn't directly responsible for their demise.

Mr. D., we've talked about this before, but just so others know: If you're going to spend some serious face time with the ToneLab LE at the local music emporium, download the manual and bone up. You can't rely on the sales people to know the unit. There are good sales guys, and then there are the ones Mr. D. ran into.

echoshock

04-04-2007, 07:22 PM

jpleong

04-04-2007, 07:31 PM

You'll need a separate hardware converter like the M-Audio CO2.

JP

Jon Chappell

04-04-2007, 07:46 PM

I already know this will be a stupid question. But I see the LE has an optical SPDIF out. My mixer has an RCA SPDIF input. Uhh what kind of cable would be used in this set up? Every one I see is RCA on both ends.
Thanks

I think it's a good question. There are two kinds of cables for S/DIF digital signals: coax (the kind you're used to seeing, with the RCA plugs) and the fiber-optic, or TOSLINK, kind. In both cases the protocol (information) traveling on them is the same, just the wires are different (optical being superior for signal integrity over longer distances, etc.). Here's what the optical cable and plug look like:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/opticalspdif.jpg

Jon Chappell

04-04-2007, 07:51 PM

You can buy a converter (like the one pictured below) for about $30.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/opticalconverter.jpg

http://www.svideo.com/toslinkcoax1.html

The M-Audio C02 is a good unit, but it's more expensive ($60) and more than you need (it's bi-directional); you're only going one way -- from the ToneLab into the mixer.

jpleong

04-05-2007, 09:04 AM

Good thing you're on top of that, sir! I didn't even know that particular unit existed.

JP

WaveMagnet

04-05-2007, 09:05 AM

I played the TLLE yesterday at my local shop. As I've said I'm not a power user or even reviewer, just a hobbyist guitar player. But this unit blew me away at how great it sounds. it blew away the sales guy in the store too. i've heard the other ME units in this price range and specifications (although that's a little apple and orange comaprison) and hands down this is going to be the unit I purchase becuase it sounds so well, the physical design is sexy and I like the logic behind the interface and tone design process. In fact if I hadn't lost my job on Tuesday I would have bought the TLLE yesterday.

Rock on!

skinner276

04-05-2007, 02:34 PM

i would agree with you the tonelab is better no question

MoreGuitars

04-05-2007, 11:57 PM

Festyx

04-06-2007, 06:48 AM

AndersonTech

04-06-2007, 02:27 PM

Hello Folks -

I would like to use my LE in Stomp Box Mode. However, If I enable the "pedal" selector switch and choose, let's say, "Fuzz", then edit this sound with the editing knobs, how can I save the new combination as defaults.

The problem I'm having is that when I switch from "fuzz" to "u-vibe", then back to fuzz, my edits are gone.

Sure, I can save my edits to a program bank, but this is disturbing for stomp box users.

Am I missing something? :confused:

Proud, but so far disenchanted owner of a new LE.
- Festyx

When you have the settings where you want them, just hit the "write" button twice. You can make more changes, but the original settings won't change unless you overwrite them by hitting the "write" button twice.

If you're trying to save settings for two different pedal effects, you'll need to save them in two separate banks (ie: 1-1 for fuzz, 1-2 for u-vibe, etc.).

Jon Chappell

04-06-2007, 03:19 PM

When you have the settings where you want them, just hit the "write" button twice. You can make more changes, but the original settings won't change unless you overwrite them by hitting the "write" button twice.

If you're trying to save settings for two different pedal effects, you'll need to save them in two separate banks (ie: 1-1 for fuzz, 1-2 for u-vibe, etc.).

This discussion was touched on in page 4 (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21631545&postcount=75).

AndersonTech's workaround is correct, and it's not that hard of a routine to adopt. Think of it this way: you have four locations in any bank (e.g., 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4). Keep 1-1 as the master stompbox setting and simply save your settings along the way to the other three banks -- bank 2 for pedals, bank 3 for modulation, and bank 4 for delay/reverb. Vox pre-programs only banks 1-10 (40 presets total); banks 11-30 are repeats. So use these additional banks, too. If you get really lost, invoke the "restore factory settings" option. Or better yet, use the ToneLab LE's editor/librarian program (screen shot below).

But mostly you'll make adjustments in order, tapping the Write button twice as you go, and building your sound that way. You might create two settings with different distortion levels, but that's about it. You can easily save to alternate programs (e.g., 1-2, 1-3) for that. Really, this is not a hassle, it's like having two sets of the same stombox collection with different settings.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tonelabeditor.jpg

ouch1234

04-07-2007, 02:55 PM

i still wanna know if the LE sounds better than a zoom G9 through a tech 21 power engine or some such rig with no preamp coloring.

yes it does...the zoom is garbage..plain and simple..its about as warm as a swarm of bees.. sorry but its the truth..the stupid implimention of the 2 tubes is silly and poor...I mean the tube settings must be changed for each patch you use if you want any versatility ..so picture yourself at a gig changing a patch from a fender to a marshal and then messing with both tube settings...forget it!

Diggerdg

04-09-2007, 09:06 AM

What were the settings you used for the acoustic clip you posted? Also, would you run and acoustic guitar through the LE and if so, at what settings?

Thanks

Jon Chappell

04-09-2007, 12:04 PM

What were the settings you used for the acoustic clip you posted? Also, would you run and acoustic guitar through the LE and if so, at what settings?

I just took the first preset #1-1, and changed the compressor to acoustic simulator, then used Type 1 (M-Small) for the acoustic type.

Here's a soundclip of me passing my acoustic guitar through the ToneLab LE. The lead guitar is a slide set on the resonator setting (#4), and the rhythm guitar is on acoustic sim #2 (G-Small). This is an Ibanez Artwood model with a saddle transducer.

Acoustic Slide Guitar (http://jonchappell.com/hc/slideguitar.mp3)

I like the funky, mettallic sound of the resonator setting, especially for lead slide work.

ScouserJam

04-09-2007, 12:52 PM

GCDEF

04-09-2007, 12:57 PM

I've only had the SE and it was a while back, but I'm pretty sure there was a bypass switch on it. Worst comes to worst, you could create a patch with everything turned off.

Jon Chappell

04-09-2007, 02:27 PM

Hello everyone,

I am also new to the TLLE -- is there an easy switch on this piece of equipment to bypass it completely?

Yes, just press the current program button and the unit goes into bypass/tuner mode. Press and hold puts the unit in mute/tuner mode.

it seems to me that this unit is quite digital in its electronics.

No, if anything, it's the opposite. Go through the entire thread and you'll see that the emphasis of the ToneLab LE is on the tube sound and the Valve Reactor circuitry -- both analog, not digital. The digital effects are there of course, but not in these two key technologies that the LE focuses on.

simple

04-09-2007, 10:00 PM

GCDEF

04-10-2007, 05:47 AM

No, if anything, it's the opposite. Go through the entire thread and you'll see that the emphasis of the ToneLab LE is on the tube sound and the Valve Reactor circuitry -- both analog, not digital. The digital effects are there of course, but not in these two key technologies that the LE focuses on.

Woah there big fella. The Tonelab is most certainly a digital modeler. Almost all the processing is digital. The Valve Reactor uses a tube to emulate the feel of a tube power section, but the front end is all digital. That said, it does sound good. Playing it live it sounded, acted and felt like a real amp to me.

Jon Chappell

04-10-2007, 06:03 AM

Also, I didn't see any information on whether or not the editor software works with Intel Macs. Does anyone know?

I've put this question to the Vox folks, and they are working on providing an ETA for the Mac version of the editor. It's not available yet, but when it is, it will be Intel-compatible. As soon as the Mac versin of the editor is released, I'll post the notice here.

Chet Muse

04-10-2007, 06:23 AM

I just took the first preset #1-1, and changed the compressor to acoustic simulator, then used Type 1 (M-Small) for the acoustic type.

Here's a soundclip of me passing my acoustic guitar through the ToneLab LE. The lead guitar is a slide set on the resonator setting (#4), and the rhythm guitar is on acoustic sim #2 (G-Small). This is an Ibanez Artwood model with a saddle transducer.

Acoustic Slide Guitar (http://jonchappell.com/hc/slideguitar.mp3)

I like the funky, mettallic sound of the resonator setting, especially for lead slide work.

Jon, nice sound, nice slide playing. Is that in an open tuning?

Jon Chappell

04-10-2007, 06:27 AM

Jon, nice sound, nice slide playing. Is that in an open tuning?

Yes, it's open A: E, A, E, A, C#, E, low to high. I played it with a Dunlop glass slide. (The song's in the key of E.)

OverDriven

04-10-2007, 07:04 AM

No, if anything, it's the opposite. Go through the entire thread and you'll see that the emphasis of the ToneLab LE is on the tube sound and the Valve Reactor circuitry -- both analog, not digital. The digital effects are there of course, but not in these two key technologies that the LE focuses on.

I have to admit I'm kinda wondering about your credibility after reading this. The Tonelab gets its tones, cab sims, and effects through digital modeling. The valve reactor is placed after all of this to warm things up, but it is a digital modeler through and through. There is really hardly anything analog about it.

Jon Chappell

04-10-2007, 09:55 AM

The valve reactor is placed after all of this to warm things up, but it is a digital modeler through and through. There is really hardly anything analog about it.
No, not "after," in the middle and not to "warm things up," but to provide power amp response. This stage is analog, too, converted back via a D/A. So to call it "all digital," is oversimplifying things, and not showing an understanding of the signal chain.

Believe me when I say, I DO know how the unit works. To convey the focus of this unit's design and distinctiveness, I stress the analogue tone-producing technologies.

From the manual, page 10:

"While much of the tone creation and shaping carried out is done in the digital domain its Valve Reactor power amp is 100% analogue. The resulting journey your guitar's signal takes through the analogue world of the power stage plays a major role in providing the all-important feel and tone of the original amps we modelled.

The Valve Reactor power stage is, to all intents and purposes, a bona fide valve (tube) push-pull power amplifier, but in miniature. It utilizes a 12AX7 (ECC83) valvue (a dual triode device -- meaning 'two valves in one') and is equipped with an output transformer, like a 'real' valve amp."

GCDEF

04-10-2007, 10:48 AM

But you said "the emphasis of the ToneLab LE is on the tube sound and the Valve Reactor circuitry -- both analog, not digital. The digital effects are there of course, but not in these two key technologies".

Exactly what you meant by "the tube sound" isn't clear, but from your post, it appears you mean it as an analog component separate from the Valve Reactor. The implication is that the "tube sound" comes from analog circuitry. You also, implied that only the effects are digital, while the amp modeling is analog, which just isn't the case.

Maybe it was just poorly worded on your part, but as it was written it was very misleading.

pbognar

04-10-2007, 12:32 PM

Believe me when I say, I DO know how the unit works. To convey the focus of this unit's design and distinctiveness, I stress the analogue tone-producing technologies.

From the manual, page 10:

"While much of the tone creation and shaping carried out is done in the digital domain its Valve Reactor power amp is 100% analogue. The resulting journey your guitar's signal takes through the analogue world of the power stage plays a major role in providing the all-important feel and tone of the original amps we modelled.

The Valve Reactor power stage is, to all intents and purposes, a bona fide valve (tube) push-pull power amplifier, but in miniature. It utilizes a 12AX7 (ECC83) valvue (a dual triode device -- meaning 'two valves in one') and is equipped with an output transformer, like a 'real' valve amp."

I wouldn't even begin to question you're knowledge of how the Tonelab works, but if there is an analog element to it sandwiched between digital technology, you would think there would be additional points in the effects chain to place the effects loop... :confused:

Jon Chappell

04-10-2007, 03:54 PM

... but if there is an analog element to it sandwiched between digital technology, you would think there would be additional points in the effects chain to place the effects loop.

There is an analog point -- a D/A conversion to the Valve Reactor and then back through an A/D.

But I hear ya. There is one insert point, and it's not movable, unfortunately (it's permanently placed before the modeled pedals, at the front of the chain). This prevents, for example, placing the LE's modeled vox wah before your Axis (or Fulltone) Fuzz, as one famous guitarist has done.

I also expected to see an expression-pedal insert, since they took away one physical pedal going from the SE to the LE version. This would have given them the desired footprint reduction, but provided the option for people who really need and use two expression pedals.

There are more versatile multi-effects units out there with respect to modularity and routing, but it's hard to deny that what the unit does with respect to core sound, it does successfully. Vox is hoping the approach will resonate with guitarists who are looking for the more "analog approach" (note the quotes, please) in sculpting sound.

With microprocessor control, there's no reason not to demand full modularity out of a m-f/x unit. But I have a different head when I go to the ToneLab LE. Maybe it's those silhouetted tube outlines in the warm glow of the amber-colored display. Or the sound. Or a combination thereof.

Hyperborea

04-10-2007, 04:20 PM

I also expected to see an expression-pedal insert, since they took away one physical pedal going from the SE to the LE version. This would have given them the desired footprint reduction, but provided the option for people who really need and use two expression pedals.

Is it possible to use the midi in to control the Tonelab? Could you have an expression pedal on midi that would replace the one "lost" in going from SE to LE?

huffcw

04-10-2007, 05:55 PM

I have been trying out a number of options for guitar amp modeling - and one option I have been considering is a computer setup with Amplitube 2. I am curious of any opinions of how the Tonelab compares to Amplitube in sound.

Also, I didn't see any information on whether or not the editor software works with Intel Macs. Does anyone know?

Thanks.

I am also interested in hearing how the sound of this compares to software modeling (both Amplitube and Guitar Rig). I am kind of torn right now whether my next buy will be software or hardware.

Also, what are the differences in terms of sound compared to the older Tonelab models?

Thanks.

Jon Chappell

04-11-2007, 06:09 AM

Is it possible to use the midi in to control the Tonelab? Could you have an expression pedal on midi that would replace the one "lost" in going from SE to LE?

Yes, and it's a good point worth exploring.

You could use a full-featured MIDI foot controller, because the unit is configured with 5-pin DIN jacks. People should be aware that units with MIDI that don't have these jacks (and just have USB) can't use an external controller. Some units have only 5-pin MIDI jacks (ToneLab); some have both USB and 5-pin (Line 6 POD); some have just USB (DigiTech RP250, 350). To my knowledge there are no USB MIDI controller devices that you can use to control other MIDI gear onstage.

You could also fashion together a smaller system, albeit with more parts. You could use a regular expression pedal (such as the Roland EV-5) and a programmable box that converts control voltage to an assignable sys-ex parameter (which you would choose based on which parameter on the ToneLab LE you wanted to control). Here's a photo of the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller and the EV-5. More stuff, but simpler and cheaper than a mondo footpedal system.

http://jonchappell.com/hc/midisetup.jpg

Jon Chappell

04-11-2007, 12:17 PM

I am also interested in hearing how the sound of this compares to software modeling (both Amplitube and Guitar Rig). I am kind of torn right now whether my next buy will be software or hardware.

Also, what are the differences in terms of sound compared to the older Tonelab models?

Both of these questions are tough to answer. The first is mostly personal, unless someone weighs in who's had experience with all three and tells you which he prefers. Software certainly has the edge from the flexibility standpoint. Some will argue that's the case for tone, too. And then again, are you looking just for tone quality, or are stage machinations a consideration?

The second question is a little easier to research, but the Vox product specialist told me that the LE was "voiced a little warmer" than the SE. The processors in the LE are of a later generation, too, but that's always the case with technology. And the presets in the LE have been entirely re-written, making it a little harder to compare the two units directly. Often, the factory presets will be written according to current tastes, so what you're hearing is a programmer's choice, and not necessarily one technology version against another. I had both in my hands for a brief time, and "smoother" is the term that struck me (regarding the LE). But that's hardly a surprise, as later digital technology will always (hopefully!) better reduce the dreaded digital fizz of its forebears.

It might be too close to call, and your decision will be made by other concerns: price, two pedals vs. one, etc. An SE owner probably wouldn't upgrade (unless he's the type who'll trade in his 2005 car for the same 2007 model), and a new buyer probably won't be interested in the SE unless he needs two onboard expression pedals (and is cost conscious).

Hope this helps.

pbognar

04-11-2007, 01:04 PM

I hear ya. There is one insert point, and it's not movable, unfortunately (it's permanently placed before the modeled pedals, at the front of the chain). This prevents, for example, placing the LE's modeled vox wah before your Axis (or Fulltone) Fuzz, as one famous guitarist has done.

I also expected to see an expression-pedal insert, since they took away one physical pedal going from the SE to the LE version. This would have given them the desired footprint reduction, but provided the option for people who really need and use two expression pedals.

There are more versatile multi-effects units out there with respect to modularity and routing, but it's hard to deny that what the unit does with respect to core sound, it does successfully. Vox is hoping the approach will resonate with guitarists who are looking for the more "analog approach" (note the quotes, please) in sculpting sound.

With microprocessor control, there's no reason not to demand full modularity out of a m-f/x unit. But I have a different head when I go to the ToneLab LE. Maybe it's those silhouetted tube outlines in the warm glow of the amber-colored display. Or the sound. Or a combination thereof.

I'm guilty of buying things which have all sort of modularity and routing capabilities, but then end up setting them up the way I think they should be and leaving them alone.

So as long as an MFX unit is setup the way I think it should be set up, the lack of options is not really a big deal. Case in point - Rocktron's Voodoo Valve and Chameleon - no, you can't have every effect on at the same time (which is probably good), but the placement of effects is correct in my opinion.

IMHO, a chain should be: Comp/phaser/wah/autowah => pre-EQ => OD / Loop => Preamp => Speaker Sim => post-EQ => Noise Gate => Volume => pitch/chorus/rotary => Loop => delay => reverb.

I laugh when I see the Noise Gate very near the beginning of the chain on Line 6 stuff - I say let the gate work on all the noise which is generated by the gain effects, not the sustain of your guitar strings!

If Vox had gotten closer to my idea of the ultimate effects chain, with two pedals - they would have hit a home run with the SE.

That being said, I could always patch a ToneLab desktop unit into the effects loop of my Boss GT-5 (or GT-8 all who have one of those...). That would pretty much do it right there. :D

It just amazes me that MFX unit manufacturers don't enlist more input from actual guitarists.

Terence T

04-12-2007, 12:13 AM

Hello, I appreciate the review and insight, I've had my eye on the LE for a while. I'm a Tonelab owner and often wondered why they didn't include a send/return, I've tried putting pedals in front of it but some of the tone gets 'sucked out.'
The other problem I've had with the Tonelab is with recording distortion, just a bit too much digital fuzz.
I guess the increase to 24 bit might help with this a bit. I'd love to try the LE with a Vox Cooltron (or another quality distortion pedal) plugged in the send/return. If you or anyone has given that a go, please let me know .
What is the bit rate of the optical out on the LE, is it 44.1 as with the original Tonelab?

dk123123dk

04-12-2007, 12:34 AM

Hello everyone,

I am also new to the TLLE -- is there an easy switch on this piece of equipment to bypass it completely? Like the previous jazzer poster, sometimes I just like to go clean through my amp without any colouring from any unit and then step on a button to turn on all the effects again, simoultaneously. Most of the time that I would be playing I would be using the unit so I realise that this isn't that big of a thing if it's not possible. Also, this may have been covered already but I'm not completely sure -- it seems to me that this unit is quite digital in its electronics. If this is true, will it change the nature of the sound that one would get from a valve amplifier. I would be very disappointed if this unit made a nice (and also expensive!) valve amplifier sound solid state.

Thanks!

if u were worried about the amps bypass, you could just buy a true bypass loop pedal. put the vox in the loop, that way you could still get your straight tube amp tone, then switch in the vox with the loop pedal.

:D
i think modelers are cool, esp the lastest vox series. the only modler i've played that felt real.

one question i had for the owners of the pedal. the filtron setting, can you set it to the expression pedal so you get a sort of wah filter thang going on? i used to do this on a korg, and i really miss that effect, esp with some ping pong delay.... it would be sweet if someone could post clips of the expression pedal controlled filtron with some ping pong!

dk

Jon Chappell

04-12-2007, 06:48 AM

What is the bit rate of the optical out on the LE, is it 44.1 as with the original Tonelab? Yes, though that's actually the sample rate. The bit depth has been upgraded to 24 bit in the LE.

the filtron setting, can you set it to the expression pedal so you get a sort of wah filter thang going on? i used to do this on a korg, and i really miss that effect, esp with some ping pong delay.
The Filtron effect in the ToneLab LE is exactly the same as in the Korg AX3000G (including the way the expression pedal works). Even the wording in the manuals is identical. Since Vox and Korg are owned by the same company, it's natural that they share technology, especially on the microprocessor level.

Terence T

04-12-2007, 10:00 AM

Jon Chappell

04-12-2007, 10:56 AM

I know its a question of personal taste, but would a distortion pedal in the send/return improve the tone? I mentioned the cooltron pedal as it seems to be similar to the LE in terms of using a tube. From my non technical view, perhaps another tube in the signal would improve the sound even more?

You really answered your own question when you acknowledged that "improve" is a matter of taste. What the ToneLab allows through its insert (send/return) point is that flexibility. You may prefer another distortion pedal (of any make & model) to the LE's own offerings. That fine, and it's why Vox chose to put the insert in the front of the chain -- they're figuring most guitarists, if they want to add an external pedal, will add a distortion pedal. So, your setup would look like this, schematically:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/signalchain1.jpg

You'd create a program that turned off the modeling pedal and the amp/cab sim., using just modulation, delay, and reverb (plus any global effects, like EQ or volume pedal).

You could even add multiple effects in this "sub-chain," such as a Brit Boost and a Duel Overdrive. But just know that all of the external effects that you put in front of the LE will get processed and packaged in a certain way when it comes out of the LE. So if you really like those tube-driven CoolTrons -- and you want to keep it pure -- go straight into the amp from the Cooltron, and keep that signal away from any other effects, LE or otherwise.

Terence T

04-12-2007, 01:08 PM

Thanks for that. My primary use for it would be straight into an EMU 1616M interface and then recording into Cubase.
One more question if I may. Are you saying that anything plugged into the send/return disables the amp/cab sim? If that is the case the the send/return would probably only be practical when going into an amp or PA.

Jon Chappell

04-12-2007, 02:06 PM

No, using the insert doesn't disable anything; I'm saying you could disable the amp/cab sim. if you wanted to hear just the CoolTron (or whatever stompbox you're using) in its purest form.

The 1616M is a nice unit. You should get good results when using the ToneLab LE's optical output for direct recording through the Emu and into Cubase.

Terence T

04-12-2007, 02:30 PM

I'm presently using the original Tonelab with the EMU. The 'clean' tone results, via the optical output, combined with Nomad Factory Blue Tubes and BBE Sonic Maximiser in Cubase, are excellent.
The distorted tones are adequate(when recording) but not more than that.(My personal taste...). So I'm hoping the LE will work better for me when it comes to distortion combined with a good pedal or 2. I'm going to buy the LE and see how it works for me, accepting the fact that as amp modulars gos this is probably as good as it gets, for the present anyway. I'll post my thoughts and reactions when I get the unit...
Thanks again.

Jon Chappell

04-13-2007, 01:52 PM

The ToneLab LE editor/librarian is now available for the Mac (and is compatible with Intel Macs).

http://www.voxamps.co.uk/tonelab/tonelab_le.asp#

(Click on "Software Downloads.")

Jess

04-13-2007, 04:46 PM

Jon Chappell

04-13-2007, 08:22 PM

Is there a optimum setting for the channel volume on the TL?. The volume select goes from 0.0 to 10.00. I realise that each sound or patch will react different to the setting of the channel volume but is there a general rule of thumb here?..Thanks.....:thu:

The ToneLab has three gain controls, and the Channel Volume acts like the "final output" control, or what you want the ultimate loudness to be. It doesn't interact in the way a gain and master volume do -- that's the function of the Gain and VR Gain.

So as far as a rule of thumb, I would put lead patches at a little louder than rhythm ones, distorted patches louder than clean ones. You could run your two contrasting levels at, say, 7 and 10. You're supposed to use the Channel Volume to balance sounds between patches, so you don't want to have to constantly make a volume adjustment (either with the pedal or an amp tweak), every time you switch from rhythm to lead, so experiment (you might determine 6 and 10 is better), but I'd recommend running the channel volume high (9 or 10) for your loudest setting. You paid for all those digital bits, so make them work for you.

andresc

04-13-2007, 10:22 PM

I am not sure what you meant when you said that the mac editor was not available.. your last post was 4/13/06 (Editor/Librarian Now Available for Mac) , i downloaded the tonelab LE editor, mac version 4 weeks ago, is there some new software that i am missing?

andresc

04-13-2007, 10:27 PM

I have read from other posts about buffers. anyone owns one? does it do anything useful? ie. BS2 Guitar Audio Buffer/Splitter/$150.00

RTSMUSIC

04-13-2007, 11:27 PM

Jon you filled every question that could arrise after the initial basic answer-Your good at this man

Jess

04-14-2007, 01:30 AM

The ToneLab has three gain controls, and the Channel Volume acts like the "final output" control, or what you want the ultimate loudness to be. It doesn't interact in the way a gain and master volume do -- that's the function of the Gain and VR Gain.

So as far as a rule of thumb, I would put lead patches at a little louder than rhythm ones, distorted patches louder than clean ones. You could run your two contrasting levels at, say, 7 and 10. You're supposed to use the Channel Volume to balance sounds between patches, so you don't want to have to constantly make a volume adjustment (either with the pedal or an amp tweak), every time you switch from rhythm to lead, so experiment (you might determine 6 and 10 is better), but I'd recommend running the channel volume high (9 or 10) for your loudest setting. You paid for all those digital bits, so make them work for you.

Thanx for the tips Jon......:thu:

Terence T

04-14-2007, 08:04 PM

Anyone know what other recording gear was used recording the LE demos on the Vox website? Thanks...

cupax

04-15-2007, 09:28 AM

I own the SE and think that the worst part of it is the compressor. For me is completely useless, since it is totaly too strong, it pumps up the volume way to much, non transparent at all even at minimum settings.

Does LE have a better compressor?

I was also thinking to get an external comp pedal...

Mozo

04-16-2007, 09:51 PM

GCDEF

04-17-2007, 07:10 AM

I would apppreciate any advice about the best amp to pair with the ToneLab LE. Since the LE I ordered has not yet arrived, my local music store has provided an SE that I've been using in conjunction with the VOX ADVT50. The redundancy of this pairing seems wrong and sounds kind of mushy in the bottom. I think I could be getting much better tones with the LE paired with a stereo amplifier driving 2 separate cabinets each with a JBL E-Series 12 inch speaker.

My goal is to be able to generate a wide variety of tones (Metheny, Carleton, SRV, Jeff Beck) using the same guitar, modeling unit and amplification. I would also like to keep the amount equipment small, so that it can fit in the back of a VW Golf. (Perhaps I expect too much.)

Any opinions about the best amplification would be greatly appreciated. Apologies in advance if this subject has already been addressed.

I used a Carvin AG100D with my Tonelab SE. It's basically a little combo sized PA, even though they advertise it as an acoustic guitar amp. It worked really well. Small, full range speakers, 100 watts. From there, I'd just run a line out to the PA. That way, I'd be hearing very close to the same thing on stage that was going out to the house.

You really want a full range amp and speakers such as a powered monitor or keyboard amp. A guitar amp's going to add its own distortions and frequency humps and guitar speakers will have a limited frequency range and uneven frequency response. You may be able to get good sounds out of it, but you'll limit what you can do. As an example, if the Tonelab is trying to model a speaker with a usable frequency response up to 6.5k, but your guitar amp can only reproduce 5.5k, you're going to lose some of the effect of the model. If your guitar speaker has a 6dB spike at a certain frequency, while the amp or speaker being modeled doesn't, what you hear won't be an accurate representation of what the Tonelab is putting out.

teetop

04-17-2007, 11:37 AM

I second the Carvin AG100D. Although I find that it seems just a bit weak of 100 watts, it provides a very clean, colorless sound that I wanted, in order to let the Tonelab do all the toning work. Plus, it has a 5-band EQ, four decent effects, and three channels each with EQ shaping capabilities. Quite a versatile amp that does lots of things well.

A lot of people recommend going straight from Tonelab to the PA, ostensibly to get a colorless amplified sound as well.

I have no data to test this or make conclusions, but I wonder if a Tonelab through a Marshall would still sound like a Marshall regardless of the amp simulation chosen. Anyone try this?

Mark

jpleong

04-17-2007, 01:11 PM

My recommendation would be a Mackie SRM450 or (barring that) an SRM350. I used to have a Carvin AG100D and was almost never satisfied with its volume or consistency of tone. One of the big problems I have with it is the fact that its tweeter dispersion pattern is very tight. As soon as you're an inch off-axis, the highs disappear.

I actually wrote an HC review of the AG100D which was very positive because of its flexibility and tone but after using the Mackies and knowing your particular requirements (something simple is probably best), the AG100D simply can't compete with the SRM series. The SRM450/350 is the best you'll get for under a grand.

JP

Jon Chappell

04-18-2007, 06:58 AM

One of the big problems I have with it is the fact that its tweeter dispersion pattern is very tight. As soon as you're an inch off-axis, the highs disappear.JP

I've found this problem with a lot of other full-range combo amps, too. And the Mackie SRM450 certainly solves the tweeter-dispersion issue mightily. Plus, the SRM450 can double as a P.A. system (as nature intended), especially if you can afford to buy another one, so you have some versatility there. Also, if you did (eventually) buy a pair of SRM450's, you could run the ToneLab LE in stereo, and be much more effective by placing the speakers according to the environment, rather than confining them to the space of the cabinet, like other two-speaker stereo combo amps do.The SRM450 is designed to be placed on its side (angled upward), upright, or even on a stand.

aka_guitarist

04-21-2007, 12:33 PM

This thread was invaluable when I was trying to decide whether to get a Tonelab or a POD XT Live. And was further useful when I was trying to decide between the LE and SE.

Thanks, Jon (and others)

I ended up deciding on the ToneLab LE and am now working to take full advantage of it.

One thing that didn't get mentioned anywhere I looked was that the LE and SE have incompatable patch files. So based on what I know now, patches created for the SE cannot be loaded into the LE (and viceversa). This didn't come as a complete shock nor would it have been a deciding factor had I known before I got the LE. I am mentioning it in case it might matter to someone researching the pros and cons of the ToneLab LE.

So at this point I am looking for any information on the ToneLab LE regarding utilities for converting/analyzing LE and SE patch files, or even just the internal file format definition the patch files use. I emailed Vox requesting this kind of info also. Have not heard back yet.

Any links, tips, pointers, rumors, suspicions :) to this kind of info is appreciated.

In the meantime, I'll follow Jon's process and start exploring the Amp/cabinet section of the ToneLab LE to work toward the sounds I'm looking for in my rig.

Peace,

Mark

Jon Chappell

04-23-2007, 07:16 AM

One thing that didn't get mentioned anywhere I looked was that the LE and SE have incompatable patch files. So based on what I know now, patches created for the SE cannot be loaded into the LE (and viceversa). This didn't come as a complete shock nor would it have been a deciding factor had I known before I got the LE.
So at this point I am looking for any information on the ToneLab LE regarding utilities for converting/analyzing LE and SE patch files, or even just the internal file format definition the patch files use. I emailed Vox requesting this kind of info also. Have not heard back yet.
Mark, although there's no automated way to load patches from the SE into the LE, you could simply open each preset in the SE editor (you don't have to own the SE to get the editor to work on your computer), and write down the data values. Then you'd plug those numbers into the LE.

You may know this already, but I'm relaying it here in case others are wondering. I don't own the SE, but I downloaded and installed the editor/librarian with no problem. Then I opened each preset and noted the parameters given onscreen. Though it might be cumbersome to do this with all the presets, you could certainly focus on favorite, targeted sounds first, and get around to the others as priority dictates. There are only 32 presets total in the SE, so it wouldn't take you that long. Not elegant, perhaps, but doable.

I've already included a screenshot of the LE's editor/librarian previously in this forum, but here's a shot of the SE's version, where you can see that the numerical values of the parameters are clearly visible.

TONELAB SE EDITOR/LIBRARIAN:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/tlsescreen.jpg

aka_guitarist

04-23-2007, 09:04 PM

Thanks, Jon. Good suggestion. I just installed the SE version of the Editor. :)

I'm not as interested in the SE presets as I am in all the SE patches posted on the various ToneLab forums by SE users. It seemed like a way to get a jump on some cool Tonelab sounds not covered by the presets while I'm getting up to speed on the ToneLab LE. It's not that I don't plan to make the effort to learn the LE and create patches to my personal taste, I guess it's just that instant gratification thing. :lol: Your suggestion will help.

And thanks for the tips regarding channel volumes. That's the next thing I need to work on. (Programs with boost for leads.)

You're making this way too easy, you know. ;)

Peace,

Mark

tnield

04-23-2007, 11:17 PM

Hi Jon,

How is the dotted 8 delay on the Tonelab LE? Will it give that catchy U2 Edge-like sound? Will I have to buy a Boss DD-20 to go with the Tonelab?

Thanks

Jon Chappell

04-24-2007, 07:46 AM

Hi Jon, How is the dotted 8 delay on the Tonelab LE? Will it give that catchy U2 Edge-like sound? Will I have to buy a Boss DD-20 to go with the Tonelab? Thanks

Of course, if you tap in exactly a dotted-8th rhythm (once) using the Tap Tempo feature mapped to the Delay Time, you can do it this way.

But I suspect you're asking if the unit will perform the math for you, and the answer is yes, and for many different divisions besides dotted-8ths. So you'd tap in quarter notes (much easier to perform precisely, especially at bright tempos), and tell the Tap Tempo to interpret that as a "factor" of your tap -- in this case, a 3/4 division (which is a dotted-8th). So the news is good for the dotted-8th freaks among us.

Here's the relevant text from p. 49 of the manual (which lists 3/4 -- dotted-8th, if you tap quarter notes -- among the choices):

***
FACTOR VALUE KNOB 5 SETTING
If the MODULATION effect’s SPEED parameter or the DELAY effect’s TIME parameter are assigned to a control switch, you can set the MODULATION effect’s LFO SPEED or the DELAY effect’s DELAY TIME by the interval at which you press the control switch twice. When you do so, the interval at which you actually press the pedal will be applied to the parameter at a “factor” (i.e., multiple) of 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 1, 4/3, 3/2, 2, 3, or 4, according to the setting of the FACTOR parameter (value knob 5).
***

BTW, I am well versed in the dotted-8th delay technique. Check out my flatpicked rendition of this well-known "circus music" tune, "El Cumbanchero": The first section is flatpicked normally. The second pass is executed entirely with a dotted-eighth setting on the delay. The picked notes here are actually slower, and therefore more easily played, than those in the previous section.

"El Cumbanchero" with dotted-8th delay (http://jonchappell.com/hc/ElCumbanchero.mp3)

Shameless plug dept.: The tab for this arrangement (including an explanation on how to convert tempo in bpm to delay time in ms) is in my book (which includes a CD) "Great Country Riffs for Guitar Vol. II" (Hal Leonard Publishing).

http://jonchappell.com/hc/ElCumtab.jpg

Hope this helps.

Umut

04-26-2007, 12:04 AM

Hi,
I have a fender strat with texas pickups and the humming is usually a problem for me. I used to have a Zoom GFX-8 and its noise gate was excellent.

The I tried a korg ax3000. The tones were good, the effects were good, but the noise gate was horrible. It killed the sustain. Zoom gfx-8 was also degrading the sustain but this unit really made it impossible for me to use it although I liked almost everything else about it.

I know that the effects in vox tonelab are done by toneworks (korg). How would you comment on the noise gate of this pedal? I mean when using hot single coils?

HKSblade1

04-26-2007, 12:11 AM

NG is not very good (so-so) on the LE or the SE

13bats

04-27-2007, 07:56 PM

I have a quick question im hoping someone can answer .In the new Tonelab ads It shows the display as red Led not the yellow screen shown on Vox .com .also the footswitch lights are all green leds .Has Vox changed the design to the Red led screen or is it just a mistake????

Theowilson

04-28-2007, 07:57 AM

Hi!
I haven´t figured out how to change the valve!
It seems difficult to me.
Does anybody know how?

thanks.

GCDEF

04-29-2007, 07:25 PM

Hi!
I haven´t figured out how to change the valve!
It seems difficult to me.
Does anybody know how?

thanks.

Why would you want to do that?

edeibler2000

04-30-2007, 05:22 PM

Why would you want to do that?

I have the SE and I will say that I liked the sound of a JJEE83C (or something like that ;) ) better than the stock EH12AX7 with which it shipped. It sounded fuller and not quite as fizzy when using overdriven settings. That being said while the swap was a bit cumbersome it was certainly do-able. It looks like the LE would be a much bigger pain in the behind, since the tube instead of being behind an easily removed plastic bubble is now buried beneath the case.

eric

echoshock

04-30-2007, 08:10 PM

Hi,
I'm using the LE through the digital out. I'm getting digital 'clicks' every once in a while, while playing. I assume it has to be the LE (as opposed to my wires) since there are no clicks when LE is turned off.
Any ideas? I have the LE set to line in and the clicks occur at all SPDIF output levels... Thanks

lenster

05-01-2007, 11:36 PM

I've recently sold my Zoom G9 and think i may have done the wrong thing.
After a couple of amp problems i think i want to go back to a MFX.
1- for effcts thru the loop or 4CM.
2 - for back up direct to PA if my new amp fails during a gig .
Before i decide i woould like to know wether the Tonelab LE can be used thru the loop primarily 4 Delay , Chorus ,. & EQ Boost
And can it be used with the 4CM.
Cheers.

Jon Chappell

05-02-2007, 09:45 AM

i woould like to know wether the Tonelab LE can be used thru the loop primarily 4 Delay , Chorus ,. & EQ Boost And can it be used with the 4CM.

The answers are yes: you can use your amp's loop feature to access just the mod effects (we've covered that in this forum). And any multi-effects with a loop can employ 4CM (four-cable method). Here's how you'd route the cables for the ToneLab:

Cable 1: Guitar OUT to ToneLab IN
Cable 2: ToneLab SEND to Amp IN
Cable 3: Amp SEND to ToneLab RETURN
Cable 4: ToneLab OUT to Amp RETURN
ToneLab settings: Pedal, Amp/Cab sims OFF, select Line2 output to use EQ.

For readers wondering about "4CM": 4CM is available to people who have an amp with an effects loop and a multi-effects processor with a loop. This method allows you to do two things:
1. Use just the amp's preamp (avoiding the mfx's preamp stage)
2. Place the mfx's modulation/ambient effects after the preamp stage, where they're arguably best suited.

lenster

05-02-2007, 03:17 PM

The answers are yes: you can use your amp's loop feature to access just the mod effects (we've covered that in this forum). And any multi-effects with a loop can employ 4CM (four-cable method). Here's how you'd route the cables for the ToneLab:

Cable 1: Guitar OUT to ToneLab IN
Cable 2: ToneLab SEND to Amp IN
Cable 3: Amp SEND to ToneLab RETURN
Cable 4: ToneLab OUT to Amp RETURN
ToneLab settings: Pedal, Amp/Cab sims OFF, select Line2 output to use EQ.

For readers wondering about "4CM": 4CM is available to people who have an amp with an effects loop and a multi-effects processor with a loop. This method allows you to do two things:
***1. Use just the amp's preamp (avoiding the mfx's preamp stage)
***2. Place the mfx's modulation/ambient effects after the preamp stage, where they're arguably best suited.
Thanx for your reply Jon.
I tried out the Tonelab LE yesterday at my local music store and was very impressed. Knowing that i have a back up to run thru the PA is also a bonus.
My heart wants the Visual sound H2O /Route 66, but my head tells me to buy the Tonelab for peace of mind.
thanx again fot this great review .:thu: :D

echoshock

05-02-2007, 04:26 PM

Jon, any idea on the SPDIF clicks I mentioned above? Anyone else using the digital out?
Thanks

Jon Chappell

05-02-2007, 06:16 PM

Jon, any idea on the SPDIF clicks I mentioned above?

We should take a look at your setup.
1. What are you running the S/PDIF into? Are you on Windows XP SP2?

2. What software and what drivers are you using? ASIO, DirectX?

3. Clicks (and dropouts) can sometimes mean CPU overload. Did you try increasing the latency/buffer size? (This is easier to do in an ASIO-based system.)

If this starts to get complicated, we might want to take it offline (via PM's), but I'll be glad to help you. Just so you know, I've used the digital output and haven't experienced any problems.

Terence T

05-02-2007, 08:13 PM

Jon, any idea on the SPDIF clicks I mentioned above? Anyone else using the digital out?
Thanks

I've had the LE a few hours now. I'm also getting clicks recording digital, with the same settings I use for my old Tonelab desktop. (ie. interface and sequencer configured for digital).
Also, as soon as I carefully inserted the optical cable the plastic cover of the digital out came off.

My other initial impressions are not good, it seems to be cheaply put together in comparison to the original.

Sound wise I fail to see any significant improvement.

I'll be trying it for a while longer but at this stage I'll probably be sticking with my original Tonelab.

Hope you're having more luck...

echoshock

05-03-2007, 10:35 AM

We should take a look at your setup.
1. What are you running the S/PDIF into? Are you on Windows XP SP2?

2. What software and what drivers are you using? ASIO, DirectX?

3. Clicks (and dropouts) can sometimes mean CPU overload. Did you try increasing the latency/buffer size? (This is easier to do in an ASIO-based system.)

If this starts to get complicated, we might want to take it offline (via PM's), but I'll be glad to help you. Just so you know, I've used the digital output and haven't experienced any problems.

Jon thanks for your help. I corrected the issue. I have the Tonelab going into my Tascam FW1082 and changed the digital clock settings and that seems to have removed the digital clicks.
Thanks:thu:

edeibler2000

05-05-2007, 08:13 AM

Jon thanks for your help. I corrected the issue. I have the Tonelab going into my Tascam FW1082 and changed the digital clock settings and that seems to have removed the digital clicks.
Thanks:thu:

I've also got the 1082. I was experiencing clicking when hooking up my Adrenalinn via spdif. I changed the clock setting of the 1082 from internal to external and that cleared everything up.

eric

Marc Dude

05-05-2007, 06:34 PM

Sounds like tubes... great.

Sounds like a preamp... oh dear.

Sorry, IMO lacks a large bottom* (decent cab simulation) and power amp smoothness.

* Means I don't think you can do a decent rendition of 'Fat Bottom Girls' with it ;O)

Cheers,

Dude

http://www.dudemusic.tv

Fooll

05-08-2007, 12:14 AM

Nuno_F

05-08-2007, 03:37 AM

Can anyone tell me if the insert send and return is placed before or after the AD conversion? Can't find this info anywhere.

Thanks

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 06:31 AM

I currently play a Rickenbacker 620/6 thru the Vox ac30. I also have a Rick 360/12 that I have difficulties playing. I plan on buying the TL LE and would like to know if it has the effect to give a 6 string a 12 sting sound.

No, the ToneLab LE can't make your 6 sound like a 12. That would be a job for the Line 6 Variax, the Roland VG Strat, VG-88, or other guitar-modeling system. The ToneLab does have an acoustic modeler in the Pedal Effects section, but it's an effect -- simulating acoustic response using EQ and, presumably, phasing. (I'm guessing here, because the manual doesn't state how the effect works, but that's how these devices usually operate.)

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 06:42 AM

Can anyone tell me if the insert send and return is placed before or after the AD conversion? Can't find this info anywhere.

You're right, it's not in the manual. So the A/D must be just after the Insert and before the Pedal Effect stage.

Since your inserted effects are in the analog domain, the A/D can't be before this; and since the Pedal Effects section is digital and is the next stage in the schematic (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21550328&postcount=13), the A/D must be just before this. So the revised schematic would look like this:

Guitar -> Insert Effect -> A/D -> Pedal Effect -> [etc.]

Nuno_F

05-08-2007, 06:46 AM

You're right, it's not in the manual. So the A/D must be just after the Insert and before the Pedal Effect stage.

Since your inserted effects are in the analog domain, the A/D can't be before this; and since the Pedal Effects section is the next stage in the schematic (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21550328&postcount=13), the A/D must be just before this.

Guitar -> Insert Effect -> A/D -> Pedal Effect -> [etc.]

Right. That was what I was thinking as it wouldn't make any sense having and extra AD/DA there. It would be more expensive and unnecessary.

Thanks for the reply.

Otherness

05-08-2007, 06:46 AM

Hello

I am very interested in the TLLE ( I almost bought an SE a few years ago ), and have been a silent reader of this post for the past few weeks. Everything I have read and seen about the TLLE seems to fit what I need, though I do have one question regarding the sound transition between program changes. I play fairly lush, atmospheric guitar (think The Cure, Smiths, Radiohead, Cocteau Twins, etc...) and have been a user of a multiple pedal set up for years ( Gibson 335 or Deluxe Tele through a Vox Wah, DD-5, DAN-Echo, VS Route 66, Daddy O, Echo-Plex, Cool Cat, etc... into a Fender Twin ) and have become very use to and accustomed to the sounds that I get.

My question is when playing a fairly lush say Rhythm part and I need to switch to a more gritty distorted part, will the lush Rhythm part still echo out while I have switched patches to the gritty distorted part or will it cut off?

The other guitarist in my band has a PODXT Live and is frustrated by some of these shortcomings. I want to get into multi-effects to broaden my sounds and create more, than to just rely on my old stand-by sounds. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!

Nuno_F

05-08-2007, 06:49 AM

Another question, anyone who has Amplitube 2.1 and the tonelab can tell me how the clean sounds compare? I am not really that happy with the clean sounds in amplitube, will the tonelab be a significant improvement?

I am looking for all kinds of clean sound, from jazz to reggae, funk, etc....

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 07:40 AM

... I do have one question regarding the sound transition between program changes. I play fairly lush, atmospheric guitar (think The Cure, Smiths, Radiohead, Cocteau Twins, etc...) and have been a user of a multiple pedal set up for years (Gibson 335 or Deluxe Tele through a Vox Wah, DD-5, DAN-Echo, VS Route 66, Daddy O, Echo-Plex, Cool Cat, etc... into a Fender Twin)
... when playing a fairly lush say Rhythm part and I need to switch to a more gritty distorted part, will the lush Rhythm part still echo out while I have switched patches to the gritty distorted part or will it cut off?

No, unfortunately, when you switch *programs* on the LE, the previous settings (and audio) are "flushed," and the new program loads. This is true of many mfx, not just the ToneLab and the Pod. What you're asking it to do is maintain two separate audio paths during your program change and until you strike the next guitar note. In this setup, the system doesn't "hold over" audio (your previously ringing lush chord) between program changes and your newly attacked note (which occurs after the change). Some mfx do feature a "spillover" feature, but it's limited to the delay and reverb.

However, in "stompbox" mode, you can set up a single patch so that you can selectively turn on the Pedal Effect or Amp/Cab sim. for your distortion sound, and you'll get the continuous ring-out from the modulation, delay, and reverb sections. You just can't switch "programs" -- but within a program you have plenty of front-end distortion options that won't cut off the mod, delay, and reverb sections further down the line (just like your individual pedals). Of course, you'd have to switch off the mod effects, too, but you have to do this anyway with an individual pedal setup.

But I can see why you would ask this question, based on your setup.

Because you're used to using multiple pedals, this "cut-off tail syndrome" is never an issue. For example, switching on/off your distortion pedal (or changing modes if you have a dual-mode distortion pedal) in an analog setup doesn't affect the other pedals (modulation, delay, reverb, etc.) down the line. The last struck sound keeps swirling and echoing even after you change the distortion (which is before the mod effects). This is the same behavior you'll get from the any mfx in "stompbox" mode.

So what you're asking makes sense, it's just the nature of some mfx pedals that they don't perform this way -- at least in their "program" (vs. "stompbox") modes. On some mfx (the ToneLab included), you can "preview" the next sound by moving throught banks without the sound changing, but this is not the same thing. Once you hit that new *program* button, there's an instant cut-off.

Fooll

05-08-2007, 08:26 AM

No, the ToneLab LE can't make your 6 sound like a 12. That would be a job for the Line 6 Variax, the Roland VG Strat, VG-88, or other guitar-modeling system. The ToneLab does have an acoustic modeler in the Pedal Effects section, but it's an effect -- simulating acoustic response using EQ and, presumably, phasing. (I'm guessing here, because the manual doesn't state how the effect works, but that's how these devices usually operate.)

Thanks Jon....
I recently saw Beatlemania and the George character played the Country Gent threw out the early set. He had a 12 string effect and I could only see that he was useing what looked like the Tonelab SE. So much for easy way out...LOL

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 08:38 AM

Thanks Jon....
I recently saw Beatlemania and the George character played the Country Gent threw out the early set. He had a 12 string effect and I could only see that he was useing what looked like the Tonelab SE. So much for easy way out...LOL

Well, now you've got my curiosity up. For example, in any show with well-funded production values, especially Beatlemania, if the situation calls for a 12-string, I would think the music director would insist on a modeled 12-string at the very least -- even if the guitarist is playing a 6-string. So I'm wondering what that effect was. You can simulate a 12-string with chorus and a touch of delay, but I'm not sure that would be enough for such exacting circumstances. And of course, we're not sure it was a ToneLab, right?

When I go to shows, I often try to sneak down to the stage at intermission or curtain call to see the setup. Barring that, you can bring binoculars and zoom in on the gear (this is sometimes more effective from the mezzanine or balcony where you can look down on all the floor effects).

If you know of a friend going to the show, ask him to do some reconn for you. And then let us know!

Fooll

05-08-2007, 08:57 AM

Well, now you've got my curiosity up. For example, in any show with well-funded production values, especially Beatlemania, if the situation calls for a 12-string, I would think the music director would insist on a modeled 12-string at the very least -- even if the guitarist is playing a 6-string. So I'm wondering what that effect was. You can simulate a 12-string with chorus and a touch of delay, but I'm not sure that would be enough for such exacting circumstances. And of course, we're not sure it was a ToneLab, right?

When I go to shows, I often try to sneak down to the stage at intermission or curtain call to see the setup. Barring that, you can bring binoculars and zoom in on the gear (this is sometimes more effective from the mezzanine or balcony where you can look down on all the floor effects).

If you know of a friend going to the show, ask him to do some reconn for you. And then let us know!

It was defently a Vox Tone Lab. I was right on the stage but George was on the other side about 20' away. When he went into Hard Day's Night that's what he stomped. I'll be seeing another band the 18th. 1964 The Tribute so I'll beable to discuss some stage tricks. But 1964 uses the 12 string in their sets. If I get any info I'll pass it along........

GCDEF

05-08-2007, 09:08 AM

I remember playing with an octave up effect on the SE that came somewhat close to simulating a 12 string. It put the octave on the first two strings too, so it wasn't perfect.

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 09:25 AM

I remember playing with an octave up effect on the SE that came somewhat close to simulating a 12 string. It put the octave on the first two strings too, so it wasn't perfect.

The LE and SE's Octavers provide only lower octaves (one or two octaves below, each with adjustable level), so this is not an option. In fact, the wording is identical in the SE and LE manuals.

You might be thinking of the pitch shifter, but the problem with those and octavers (the ones that do offer a higher octave), is that they're fine for single notes, but sound less than ideal when two or more notes are played. So it's not just that chords sound bad; having two strings ring together also "confuses" the sound, creating unmusical artifacts. And for the opening chord to "Hard Day's Night"? Fugheddaboutit.

The octave doubling of the upper strings (which is undesirable in a 12-string, but unavoidable with a pitch-shifter effect applied) is the deal-killer for me, as this is what most 12-string parts seem to feature. (Think of all those Roger McGuinn licks.) The LE's pitch shifter here sounds pretty warbly.

onemanguitarban

05-08-2007, 10:10 AM

GCDEF

05-08-2007, 11:27 AM

The LE and SE's Octavers provide only lower octaves (one or two octaves below, each with adjustable level), so this is not an option. In fact, the wording is identical in the SE and LE manuals.

You might be thinking of the pitch shifter, but the problem with those and octavers (the ones that do offer a higher octave), is that they're fine for single notes, but sound less than ideal when two or more notes are played. So it's not just that chords sound bad; having two strings ring together also "confuses" the sound, creating unmusical artifacts. And for the opening chord to "Hard Day's Night"? Fugheddaboutit.

The octave doubling of the upper strings (which is undesirable in a 12-string, but unavoidable with a pitch-shifter effect applied) is the deal-killer for me, as this is what most 12-string parts seem to feature. (Think of all those Roger McGuinn licks.) The LE's pitch shifter here sounds pretty warbly.

It's been a while. It could have been the pitch shifter, I really don't remember for sure. Whatever it was, it was kind of fun and sort of passable if you didn't listen too closely.

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 02:40 PM

First of all....thanks everyone for all of the useful info.

I held off getting a ToneLab SE for years because I wanted a digital out. When the LE version came out, I was quite sure I was going to get one, assuming the reviews were positive. This forum affirmed that for me, before most stores even carried the product. Since I couldn't try one out in the store, I had to rely on the feedback of others before ordering one (I NEVER buy gear sight unseen, but I had to make an exception for this one).

So I ordered one just over a month ago. I'm, sure I'll have more questions and hopefully I'll be able to add some insight into the product when I get a chance to get familiar with it.

Regarding the 12 string effect. The only product I'm aware of that really does an outstanding job of this with any guitar is the POG from Electro-Harmonix.

It is expensive....but it really does work and is the only thing I'd personally use to "replace" a 12 string.

The E-H POG does sound pretty good (my reservation about the octave-raised 1st and 2nd strings notwithstanding). There are soundclips (and more info) here: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ElectroHarmonix-POG-Polyphonic-Octave-Generator-?sku=153330&src=3WFRWXX. Check out #2, "1 Octave Up": The stability in the chord playing is impressive. (Listen to the ring-out on the final D chord.)

I like how in the blurb they say, "Works on chords!" It's the second sentence, and it's true. For me, that's an important, unique feature of the unit.

Otherness

05-08-2007, 03:32 PM

JC
Thanks for the insightful reply. I assumed what you had told me, but was unsure, and my in-store tests have been plagued by multiple loud sounds coming from various places in the "multi-store" so I could not hear a lot of the changes between sounds. I am still very interested in the TLLE, and possibly incorporating my pedal setup into it, but I am curious now, does the GT-8 allow for the sound over patch changes with its dual COSM deal? Our other guitarist had a GT-5 way back when and I wasnt to impressed, but...

Thanks!

Jon Chappell

05-08-2007, 04:10 PM

... but I am curious now, does the GT-8 allow for the sound over patch changes with its dual COSM deal?

Yes, it does ... to a point. I don't have a GT-8 handy, but I checked the owners' manual, and here's what I found on p. 71:

Keeping Effect Sounds Playing After Patches Are Switched (Patch Change Mode)
The GT-8 features a mode that is enabled when spatial effects (such as reverb and delay) are used, whereby the effects sound of one patch continues playing even after you switch to the next patch. If the necessary conditions regarding the effects chain and effect parameter settings are met, you can then have the decay of reverb, delay, and similar effects continue on into the next patch after you switch patches.

With certain limitations, you can change patches in some mfx units while the sound continues over the patch change. Here, they don't mention modulation effects (chorus, flanger, etc.), saying only "decay of reverb, delay, and similar effects," and you originally cited "lush" as one of your "conditions," so I'd tread carefully here. Still, the GT-8 is to be commended for this feature.

Dragonsoni

05-08-2007, 05:01 PM

Jon Chappell

05-09-2007, 06:12 AM

I am currently upgrading my equipment.
I have a Gibson Les Paul 58' Reissue and a Fender Stratocaster 62' Reissue.
I recently purchased a Marshall 1962 Bluesbreaker Combo which I will run clean with pedals.
The plan is to still be able to hear the Gibson and Fender guitar tones.
My tone snob friends say I should get the following : Fulltone OCD, Boss DD-6 (to get by) and a Boss Tuner.
For the cost of those three I am at the level of a Tonelab LE.

Basically, do the guitars signature sounds come out of a Tonelab LE or am I just ruining/neutering my Gibson/Fender/Marshall combination and should stick with single pedals?

You have a nice arsenal, and it's obvious you care about tone. So certainly the OCD/DD-6 setup (the tuner is negligible here, except for the price factor) is a very "low impact" way to shape the tone of the guitar and amp.

But it strikes me as an apples & oranges comparison. A multi-fx is not for someone who can get by with a delay and an overdrive. If you don't need five or six different distortion settings at the press of a button, if you don't need complex modulation sounds, if you don't need a volume/wah pedal, if you don't need programmable patch changes, then you don't need to consider any mfx -- ToneLab or otherwise.

Try this: go through your set list, or your favorite songs that you're likely to play at a jam session or with your band. If you can make adjustments to just a couple of stompboxes on the fly, then you're probably not a candidate for a mfx. But if you play a lot of diverse music (weddings, house band, theater/pit guitarist, teacher, hired gun), and if versatile tone options are as important (if not more) than purity, you're definitely looking at a mfx. (Sometimes the audience or client is more impressed by being able to switch sounds on a time than they are with just tone.)

Now, for the more probing question: "Will the ToneLab 'ruin' your sound?" No more than any other effect, no less. Some people argue that analog is a "purer" way to modify your guitar signal than digital, but that's just superstition; we do digital conversions all the time, and no one seems to complain then (mp3's, CDs, DVDs, computer-based recording). If you want more of the pure guitar sound to shine through, don't dial in the effects so heavily. But you choose an effect -- let's say it's a distortion pedal -- based on its quality. You opt for a Keely or a Fulltone or a vintage Ibanez because you prefer one over the others, for your sound, not for any issues of purity.

But back to your specific situation. Your point about the price is a good one, but the actual usage of the effects setup that you propose applies to two entirely different scenarios. So decide if you're a stripped-down, stompbox-as-needed guy, or a mfx user. If you decide you need a mfx, consider the ToneLab, along with others of its class.

Dragonsoni

05-09-2007, 11:25 AM

Jon,

Thanks for the great answer. I really want multiple effects and the pedals I listed were just to get me by. I think a unit like the Tonelab LE will work for me. I think individual pedals just may turn into a long time pursuit.

I am concerned about transparency and the guitar voices. Thanks again for clarifing that adjusting the effects level will help with that.

I know you can't endorse a product. But for everyone else.

How does the Tonelab LE stack up with the Boss GT-8, Rocktron Uptopia, Digitech RP350, Lines Floor Pod, Plus or XTlive and any other current available MFX processor at $500 mainly tone?

On a side note I do have a Fender G-DEC which is all modaling and it sounds really good with my guitars. I think Fender could do a go job of making it's cyber technology into a floor model but then they wouldn't seel the amps.

Types of music are the basic blues, rock blues, rock, hard rock and metal. Jimi/Trower/SRV/Bonomassa but Randy/Zack/Lynch too.

Thanks to all:thu:

NightMizer

05-09-2007, 02:15 PM

The Tonelabs effects sound great but my question is how does the metal distortion sound...I haven't seen anyone show or review it. If anybody could possibly upload a sound clip of it that would be great. . .or at least make a quick review.

Thanks

ragingplatypi

05-09-2007, 02:34 PM

Jon - thanks for being a great reviewer and moderator.
I own the TLSE and I really love it. I play it through a Roland keyboard amp, and it has worked great at small gigs. I approach amp modeling as a means of finding my own original sound without having to lug around 70 lbs of tube amplification.
I love having two rocker predals on the SE, and I am bummed to see those go. I also relate to people's wish to have a distortion pedal and vox wah going at the same time. Also, I like the A/B switch on the SE because the reverb and delay keep going after the switch is pressed.
I think the frustration over not being able to use multiple modeled effects at once is simply because the unit sounds so great. I would love to hear the great univibe model along with the great tube screamer model. I'd rather pay Vox the $100 to put that feature under the hood, than drag around another pedal.
I actually wish Vox would produce a more expensive version of the Tonelab with 2 rocker pedals, 2 modeled effects banks, and an A/B switch. Tone geeks like me are willing to spend the money.
I like that I only carry one item to a gig which has everything I need, and almost everything I want.

aortizjr

05-09-2007, 03:05 PM

Towards the end here, I read about the ability to have effects "spillover" to the other patches.

So say you run a delay for a solo and switch back into rhythm, can that delay "spillover" to the next patch?

Does this new Vox do that?

Some other FX processors that can do it, Rocktron Xpression, Boss GT-8, Zoom GFX-8 (prev generation to the new G series). I think that I remembered reading that the G9 can do it as well.

Also is the pitch shifter intelligent?

How transparent is it when bypassed?

Thank you.

tonyoto

05-09-2007, 03:26 PM

Nuno_F

05-10-2007, 12:32 PM

Jon Chappell

05-11-2007, 07:03 AM

Another question, is it possible to use the send as a splitter and send a unaffected signal to a recording device?

I'm figuring you can't cause it's wired in series, but it would be really nice if you could.

Here's the deal with the Insert jack. You can use the Send as a splitter, because there's always a straight signal coming out of the jack, whether the Insert is activated or not. So, to take your example, here's how you'd wire it:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/guitarsignal.jpg

Nuno_F

05-11-2007, 12:09 PM

Here's the deal with the Insert jack. You can use the Send as a splitter, because there's always a straight signal coming out of the jack, whether the Insert is activated or not. So, to take your example, here's how you'd wire it:

http://jonchappell.com/hc/guitarsignal.jpg

Cool :)

That's perfect then. I am getting myself one of those very soon. Thanks for the help :thu:

Jon Chappell

05-11-2007, 02:40 PM

Hi, and thanks for a great review! I found this, in my mind, beautiful sound in the demos section at Vox featuring one of their single pedals - the V848. Anyone think a similar-ish sound could be achieved with the LE? The demo is called "Vintage Funk Delay Wah Demo" (http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/audio/Pedals/V848_Vintage_Funk_Delay_Wah.mp3).

You're right, this is a tasty and varied showcasing of the Vox V848. Thanks for including the link here. But you raise some interesting philosphical questions:

The 848 is made by Vox, who also makes the wah pedal mechanism and circuitry for the ToneLab. The manual even says that the two modeled wahs in the TLLE are based on the 847 and 848. Presumably, they're going to borrow some mechanical technology -- at least -- from the actual 847/848 to be used in the treadle that's included on the TL.

But just because Vox models their own pedal, is it necessarily any better than another company modeling the effect in question? (Assuming someone has modeled a Vox wah.) Does Fender make the best '59 Bassman effect (their stompbox version) just because they put out the original amp?

Or is this a different case, because of the aforementioned "borrowed technology"? (Many effects between Vox and Korg effects are carried over, because the circuitry is identical.)

We may never know the answer (that's why I called them "philosophical questions"), because it would be hard to prove -- unless you did some real forensic work on the components, and/or you knew someone in Vox's engineering dept.

What you'd have to do is learn the music for the demo, and then try to emulate it on a ToneLab. Or better yet, make the guy who played the original demo on an 848 learn it, and see what he thinks!

WaveMagnet

05-16-2007, 11:32 AM

HKSblade1

05-17-2007, 03:52 AM

Jon, is that send active with cab models or can you select one direct and the other as cab sim on?

sea

05-18-2007, 01:34 PM

I have a question (for those who have tired both).

Which one do you like best? The SE or the LE? :)

Thanks!

SEA :thu:

Jon Chappell

05-18-2007, 01:46 PM

Jon, is that send active with cab models or can you select one direct and the other as cab sim on?

No, in either case, the Send is pre-amp/cab sim.

Jarick

05-18-2007, 02:09 PM

MoreGuitars

05-18-2007, 03:07 PM

How are the high gain tones? Can it do a decent heavy tone without buzzing (my main criticism of the POD)?

Also, Jon, do you happen to know if the Vox also models the tone stack of the amp? For instance, on a Mesa, there is an active EQ circuit where the treble control is linked to the gain. So a small change in the treble control drastically alters the tone control as opposed to a Fender where it simply changes the high end a bit. I know this is how the POD's are modeled (at least the XT).

Gonna check one out tonight! And thanks for the review.

I've heard some people say the hi-gain sounds are lacking, but I think they do a very good job. A clip I did was posred a few pages ago which demonstates an over the top hi-gain sound. This was done without any external effcts straight from converter to computer.

sea

05-19-2007, 05:16 AM

It would be cool if VOX came out with the Tonelab Pro... a rack mount version with 2 Tonelabs inside and set it up so you can switch back and forth between the Tonelabs through velocity and have completely different settings like you can with the GT8.

Something like this perhaps. :D

http://www.bossus.com/ProductImages/gtpro_md.jpg

I know a lot of people say the Boss is too digital and not as warm as the Tonelab... but what if you put the Boss through a tube amp? I know it's not going to be the same as the Tonelab but at least perhaps give it some warmth! ;)

SEA http://www.auburnfootball.com/GIFS/musik_2.gif

Jon Chappell

05-19-2007, 10:41 AM

Also, Jon, do you happen to know if the Vox also models the tone stack of the amp? For instance, on a Mesa, there is an active EQ circuit where the treble control is linked to the gain. So a small change in the treble control drastically alters the tone control as opposed to a Fender where it simply changes the high end a bit. I know this is how the POD's are modeled (at least the XT).

The ToneLab does make an effort to model the tone controls (EQ and gain) of the amp (I think this is what you mean). Here's the relevant text, from p. 27 of the manual:

CONTROLLING FACTORS
As already touched on in this manual, although the amp model of your ToneLab LE houses controls for GAIN, VR GAIN, TREBLE, MIDDLE, BASS, PRESENCE and CH VOLUME, not all of the amps we’ve modelled have as many controls. In such cases, rather than leave you with knobs that do nothing (what on earth would be the point of that!?), we’ve made full use of all six (6) ToneLab LE controls without compromising the accuracy of any of our models. This means you’ll be able to mimic the full tonal spectrum of each and every one of the originals we’ve modelled...and then some, thanks to the extra flexibility and additional control the six ToneLab LE controls give you.

For example, if an original amp doesn’t have a complete 3-band EQ network then we’ll set up the “missing” tone controls on our model to be “neutral” (i.e. as the original) when set at 12 o’clock — thus giving you extra tonal flexibility in those EQ areas, if you so wish. Just so you know, the amps we modelled that don’t have individual controls for Treble, Middle and Bass are:

AMP / ORIGINAL TONE CONTROLS
AC15 / Top Cut & Bass Cut Switch
AC15TB / Treble & Bass
AC30 / Top Cut only
AC30TB / Treble, Bass, and Cut
TWEED 1x12 / just one, called Tone!

Also, as you’d probably expect, we do the same exact thing with the ToneLab LE’s PRESENCE control too — namely, if one isn’t present (bad pun, not intended!) on the original, then PRESENCE will be an added control on our model. This time though, the “neutral” position is when the control is all the way off (turned fully counter-clockwise). The two models this applies to are BLACK 2x12 and TWEED 1x12.

IMPORTANT NOTE: As you’ll discover when you read their descriptions, in the case of the AC15, AC15TB, AC30 and AC30TB models, we’ve utilized the PRESENCE control to mimic the TOP CUT control — whether it was present on the original or not.

sea

05-20-2007, 05:58 AM

No, the ToneLab LE can't make your 6 sound like a 12. That would be a job for the Line 6 Variax, the Roland VG Strat, VG-88, or other guitar-modeling system.

Hey Jon!

Here's a thought... how about using the Line 6 Variax then running it through the Tonelab LE? Would that be something worth looking into (to capture that warmth people are looking for)

SEA

Jon Chappell

05-20-2007, 09:19 AM

Hey Jon! Here's a thought... how about using the Line 6 Variax then running it through the Tonelab LE? Would that be something worth looking into (to capture that warmth people are looking for)

I love the Variax because of its simplicity and uncanny renditions of classic guitars. They won't replace the real thing, but in a mix, they sound pretty darn good. And for some situations -- a show that requires you to switch sounds on a dime -- it's a life-saver. (And who really wants to schlepp and maintain a banjo, 12-string, or Coral sitar for one cue?)

In the all-digital domain, the Variax is best designed to go through the POD XT Live or Vetta amp, because you can use the CAT-5 connection. But you can plug its audio output through any multi-effects processor, including the ToneLab. As a modeling guitar, though, I might not want to stray too far from nature -- preferring to balance the digitally modeled tones with an analog effects and amplification approach.

willburford

05-20-2007, 01:50 PM

If you guys want some warmth, as mentioned above, check out www.atomicamps.com. I've got one that I'm using with a pod 2.0 (upgrading to tonelab le as soon as I get the cash) that yields great results... just thought I'd share that.

Mattsdf

05-20-2007, 11:07 PM

Jon Chappell

05-21-2007, 07:29 AM

Hey Jon! I have just finished reading every post. (all 220! It took me two days!) Anyways, I haven't found any solid information on how well the TL LE can play metal (such as Metallica). I know that it has a metal distortion effect, but I am very curious on how much "metal distortion" it can give off. Could you possible post a sound clip on how much you can get from it? BTW: Great review so far!

Glad you found the posts helpful. But "how much metal" the LE can produce is highly subjective and infinitely variable, given the many parameters in the ToneLab. If you don't find any clips that are metal enough from the posts here or at the vox website, I suggest you download the manual and make note of the metal presets. Also, familiarize yourself with the appropriate controls (Pedal Modeler, Amp/Cab sim., EQ). Then go to your local TLLE dealer with notes (the written kind) in hand, and put the LE through its paces.

Or has someone out there in forum land made a specific effort to emulate the Metallica sound with the ToneLab?

Jack Gilvey

05-21-2007, 07:51 AM

What a great review and a great thread...thanks, Jon. Based on my experience with my AD60VTX, I plan on a TLLE (which seems to overcome many of the drawbacks I did find). As I read through I found that questions I came up with where subsequently answered, specifically about dotted-eighth delay...very happy to find out it does! "Bad" here I come. ;) Funny that someone was considering a DD-20 to go with it...I was too.

How about stereo delays...which are true stereo (dry to one side, delayed to another)?

Aslo, I had planned on running through a Crate Powerblock (using the stereo inserts, bypassing the pre) and into a pair of 1x12 cabs, perhaps the new Valve Jr cabs (the Lady Luck supposed to be fairly flat).

Mattsdf

05-21-2007, 08:05 AM

Wow thanks Jon, great advice, and fast reply! :thu: I haven't found anything "metal enough" for my tastes yet on any fourms, but considering the processor is still fairly new thats no surpise. In the meantime, I will dowload the manual and check it out ASAP at Long n' Mquade (great store, if anyone is in Canada). But if any TL LE owners do find a good Metallica sounding metal, I would greatly appreciate it if you posted a sound cip of it. Thanks again everyone! Excellent Review!!! :)

Fooll

05-21-2007, 08:35 AM

I'm a total noob when it comes to computers and guitars....which leads to the following questions?

My notebook PC and the family PowerBook don't have MIDI. If I get a USB to MIDI converter box will that allow me to edit and create patches using the TTLE software editor? Does TLLE's library store patches/objects in either format, does it matter if some patches are created using a Mac and some a PC? Or must I stick to one flavor of editor? Thanks.

I just purchased the LE this weekend. I have the converter and it doe's connect with the LE. I haven't tried to edit anything yet.

I did try to set up a few tones thru my AC30 and had practice thru a PA which obviously sounded different.
Would anyone beable to give me the recipe for a good Surf sound and Tom Petty's Last Dance tone.
I hope I don't become a pest but I'm stoked about the new toy.....

Jon Chappell

05-21-2007, 12:37 PM

How about stereo delays...which are true stereo (dry to one side, delayed to another)?

There's only one selection that will do this, and it's in the Modulation section, not the Delay section. The ToneLab LE confusingly names two effects "Mod Delay," but they're in different blocks and have different features. The one you seek (Dry-only Left, Effect-only Right) is in the Mod block, and its delay-time parameter isn't as specific (it goes from 1.0 to 10.0) as the one in the Delay block (which gives the read-out in ms, from 3-2,000).

Aslo, I had planned on running through a Crate Powerblock (using the stereo inserts, bypassing the pre) and into a pair of 1x12 cabs, perhaps the new Valve Jr cabs (the Lady Luck supposed to be fairly flat).

That's a really good use for the ToneLab (and for the Powerblock, which advertises itself as a "poweramp for multi-effects processors"). You'll have a stereo setup in a small, versatile configuration. It should look cool, too, with those vintage-inspired Epi Valve Junior cabs! :cool:

Jack Gilvey

05-21-2007, 01:09 PM

There's only one selection that will do this, and it's in the Modulation section, not the Delay section. The ToneLab LE confusingly names two effects "Mod Delay," but they're in different blocks and have different features. The one you seek (Dry-only Left, Effect-only Right) is in the Mod block, and its delay-time parameter isn't as specific (it goes from 1.0 to 10.0) as the one in the Delay block (which gives the read-out in ms, from 3-2,000).

Thanks, Jon. A little disappointing. I guess what they call "stereo delay" just accepts a stereo input from the modulation block but applies the delay to both channels. "Cross delay" sounds like ping-pong, but again I'd assume the dry is in both channels and the repeat jumps back and forth.

That's a really good use for the ToneLab (and for the Powerblock, which advertises itself as a "poweramp for multi-effects processors"). You'll have a stereo setup in a small, versatile configuration. It should look cool, too, with those vintage-inspired Epi Valve Junior cabs! :cool:
Yeah, that was my thinking. Pretty manageable stereo setup with the option of just using a single cab.

Jon Chappell

05-21-2007, 08:50 PM

I guess what they call "stereo delay" just accepts a stereo input from the modulation block but applies the delay to both channels. "Cross delay" sounds like ping-pong, but again I'd assume the dry is in both channels and the repeat jumps back and forth.

Right on both counts.

Jack Gilvey

05-22-2007, 06:38 AM

Right on both counts.
Well, maybe a reason to add a DD-20 to the mix after all.

This is a stretch, but I don't suppose the "mod delay" from the modulation section would accept a tap/factor input for time?

Also, reading through again kinda got me interested in the whole PA-speaker approach, but the Mackie 450 seems more than I need...how would the 350 compare as a stereo pair? The good dispersion appeals to me, my room is acoustically-treated, pretty dead, so without the benefit of reflections I have to stay right on-axis to get full highs with a typical 12".

int.parascope

05-22-2007, 06:17 PM

I haven't bothered to read all 12 pages of this thread but... 2 questions.

Is it like the Vox Valvetronix series where you can only run one effect at once?

and...

Are the 1 2 3 4 buttons channel switchers or on/off switching?

:wave: Thanks

Jon Chappell

05-22-2007, 07:44 PM

This is a stretch, but I don't suppose the "mod delay" from the modulation section would accept a tap/factor input for time?

Unfortunately, no. In the mod section the tap-tempo is assigned to Mod Speed.

Also, reading through again kinda got me interested in the whole PA-speaker approach, but the Mackie 450 seems more than I need...how would the 350 compare as a stereo pair? The good dispersion appeals to me, my room is acoustically-treated, pretty dead, so without the benefit of reflections I have to stay right on-axis to get full highs with a typical 12".

Well, I think the 350 is more than adequate for most situations. The 450 would be for really high-gain applications. And I've said this before, but I have been plagued by a succession of full-range amps with poor dispersion, so I think matching the ToneLab with the 350 (or the 450 if you really need it and have the $) is a great idea. The only caveat is ... it's not a guitar amp. A multi-fx and a "PA speaker" is an unusual amplification system to be hauling around and setting up on a stage. You might garner some strange looks at the local open mic jam. And you can't rest a beverage on it, either. :)

Jon Chappell

05-22-2007, 07:50 PM

Is it like the Vox Valvetronix series where you can only run one effect at once?

Yes, one effect per BLOCK, but there's overlap and different ways to get similar effects. You gotta "RTFM" ;) if this is a concern.

Are the 1 2 3 4 buttons channel switchers or on/off switching?

Both, depending on whether you're in "stompbox mode" or "bank/program" mode.

wagdog

05-23-2007, 04:10 AM

Greetings all...

I have "scanned" the better part of this thread and I've downloaded the manual and read some of it. However, I'm a hands-on kind of person and until I sit down with the box in front of me and the manual open at the same time, I really don't "get it".

I have not bought a TL LE yet and am on the fence about getting one. My effects setup at the moment is a cry-baby and a TS-8. I primarily play blues and rock. I'd like to add a delay and chorus and that's why I'm thinking about getting the TL - the thought of four stomp boxes, cables, batteries (or wall warts) all laid out on stage doesn't excite me. I like the thought of different amp models, but have been underwhelmed by other devices I've tried in the past - I guess I'm not really looking for amp models, but multiple, programmable effects... and wah.

From something I saw earlier in this thread, I'm wondering if you can get a good distortion and use the wah on this box at the same time? Can someone elaborate on that? Thanks,

Wag

Jack Gilvey

05-23-2007, 05:55 AM

Thanks again for the info, Jon.

I guess I'm not really looking for amp models, but multiple, programmable effects... and wah.
I find the real thing that sets the Vox stuff apart is the basic tone, perhaps due to the VR circuit. For just effects, there are more verstile units on the market.
You can only use one modeled stomp box at a time, so no wah with a fuzz. You can use one box with one mod effect, one delay, and one reverb. But the one-box-at-a-time can be limiting to some, so you'd have to look at that. The basic tone of the boxes is fantastic, though, as least they were in my 60VTX.

Jon Chappell

05-23-2007, 06:28 AM

I have "scanned" the better part of this thread and I've downloaded the manual and read some of it. However, I'm a hands-on kind of person and until I sit down with the box in front of me and the manual open at the same time, I really don't "get it".

When considering a device as complex as a multi-effects processor, everyone should adopt your strategy. Fortunately, a downloadable pdf of the manual is available, so one can study up, and go to the music store armed with information (and print-outs, if necessary).

Jon Chappell

05-23-2007, 06:47 AM

Thanks again for the info, Jon. I find the real thing that sets the Vox stuff apart is the basic tone, perhaps due to the VR circuit. For just effects, there are more verstile units on the market. You can only use one modeled stomp box at a time, so no wah with a fuzz. You can use one box with one mod effect, one delay, and one reverb. But the one-box-at-a-time can be limiting to some, so you'd have to look at that. The basic tone of the boxes is fantastic, though, as least they were in my 60VTX.

Yes, Jack, you've got it, in a nutshell. Some mfx, like the Boss GT-8, are more versatile with regard to fx, and you can see that just from the schematic. (That subject has been touched on previously in this forum.)

You're also right that Vox designed this more with tone in mind, so that's where their focus is, and why the ToneLab LE is less expensive than the GT-8. It's fairly easy to look at the GT-8's signal topology, compare that with the ToneLab LE's, and have the GT-8 coming out on top.

But Vox by their own admission went in a different direction: they simplified this unit from its predecessor (the SE), dropped the price, and is banking on its tone production (enhanced by better processing power) to compete with other, more versatile mfx units. No one knows yet whether that will be successful, but consider that they did introduce an extra D/A-A/D conversion stage in the chain, so that the Insert/Pedal/Preamp signal (already digitized) could take advantage of the Valve Reactor technology (which is analog and occurs just after the preamp).

So you can say the ToneLab LE pales to the GT-8 in effects, but to be fair, you should also factor in price and tone. Not saying you'll necessarily prefer the tone of the LE to the GT-8, just that you should consider it. The two issues that are not in dispute are price (LE wins) or effects flexibility (GT-8 wins). That leaves it up to tone (?? wins) to decide the rubber match -- and your own ears to act as the judge here!

(Remember, too, that the three categories might not be weighted evenly -- also a personal decision.)

Very perceptive comments, Jack. Let us know what you end up deciding!

aswhad

05-23-2007, 07:56 AM

Hi Jon,
great work you're doin here :thu:
i've read almost everything but maybe i missed some, so here are some more questions.The ToneLab has three gain controls, and the Channel Volume acts like the "final output" control, or what you want the ultimate loudness to be. It doesn't interact in the way a gain and master volume do -- that's the function of the Gain and VR Gain.

So as far as a rule of thumb, I would put lead patches at a little louder than rhythm ones, distorted patches louder than clean ones. You could run your two contrasting levels at, say, 7 and 10. You're supposed to use the Channel Volume to balance sounds between patches, so you don't want to have to constantly make a volume adjustment (either with the pedal or an amp tweak), every time you switch from rhythm to lead, so experiment (you might determine 6 and 10 is better), but I'd recommend running the channel volume high (9 or 10) for your loudest setting. You paid for all those digital bits, so make them work for you.so what is the difference between
knob 6 "adjust the volume level of the programs" when you press AMP+CAB
knob 6 "channel volume" when you press AMP

Also is there a way to repeat a phrase so you can play along with it, like a loop station ?

And last on
http://www.tonelab.net/node/812 (forum is down at the moment)
they had a discussion about to trim the tube of a tonelabSE, there is also such a feature on LE, but the best settings are to have all tuner leds lit but on a soundlabLE there are no leds for the tuner.

Thanks

Jack Gilvey

05-23-2007, 11:32 AM

Very perceptive comments, Jack. Let us know what you end up deciding!
Thanks, I will. I'm certain I'll try the Tonelab as-is and add a stereo (which I think I've oversold the importance of to myself) delay if needed. I did get to try the LE briefly and really liked the sound of the AC30/mod delay(delay) even through this little Crate combo GC had set up...very Edge-y.

mjaggisan

05-24-2007, 01:03 AM

Thanks Jon for all your observations and responses. After looking up the Vox I stumbled on this forum and I am very glad I did.

How well do the effects of the unit stack up? Delay, Chorus, reverb....

Also by looking at your pics at the top of the thread it looks like one effect from each control can be combined with one effect from another control. So you have five input sources to vary. Is that right?

Thanks again for this thread. I feel a vox may be in my future very soon.

Jon Chappell

05-24-2007, 07:10 AM

Also by looking at your pics at the top of the thread it looks like one effect from each control can be combined with one effect from another control. So you have five input sources to vary. Is that right?

Yes, that's right; You have five independent blocks, which can be combined using any effect. And note that there are overlaps (Modeled Pedal distortion + Amp/Cab distortion, [Modulation]Mod Delay + [Delay]Mod Delay), for more variety.

So looking at the five chicken-head selectors (as you referred to in your post) lets you know at a glance what the names of the effects are, and downloading and reading the manual on the variable parameters within each effect reveals their depth.

Jon Chappell

05-24-2007, 07:34 AM

Good questions here, aswhad.

... what does knob 6 do "adjust the volume level of the programs" when you press AMP+CAB

That's the control to use to balance the programs as the last step, when you're ready to switch between programs in performance. I was using the Channel Volume to balance the overall level of the guitar sound relative to the gain, in the way you would for a single channel amp. But if you have additional, inter-program volume tweaks to make once your sound is all set, yes, you should use this control. Thanks for clarifying this.

Also is there a way to repeat a phrase so you can play along with it, like a loop station?

The short answer is, "not really." There is a Hold Delay mode, but you can't really use it for extremely precise, rhythmically accurate applications.

... on
http://www.tonelab.net/node/812 ...they had a discussion about [how] to trim the tube of a [T]onelabSE, there is also such a feature on LE, but the best settings are to have all tuner leds lit but ... there are no leds for the tuner.

There is a trim pot on the LE, and it's in the same location as the one on the SE, described in detail on the forum you mention (between Insert Return and Output R). I don't intend to explore this in the near future, as I haven't felt the need to swap out the tube (although I do have available several versions of the 12AX7 and its ilk). That's definitely an "extra credit project," and whoever wants to tackle this and report back will earn my undying gratitude. :)

To me, though, the big caveat here is overdriving the A/D, which is a bad thing. I know that an oscilloscope will show different levels of voltage, and though "higher is better," I'm not sure here that "highest possible is better," at least with regard to the fact that the sound will pass through an A/D converter in its next stage. The chain goes like this -- and this is NOT in the manual:

Gtr. -> Insert -> A/D -> Pedal Effect -> Preamp -> D/A -> Valve Reactor (12AU7) -> A/D -> Amp/Cab Model -> Mod -> Delay -> Reverb -> Output Select -> D/A

It's true that higher voltage through a tube is more desirable for a guitar sound in an analog circuit, but I'm not sure about it here (and again, we're talking about tweaking it to the "highest possible" state using meters). You'd have to very carefully raise the voltage without overdriving the A/D, and then listen to the results very critically to determine if they were better for the effort. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but these are the things to watch for, and a way saying a better oscilloscope reading might not translate to a better listening-aesthetic experience.

But is it worth trying? You bet!

Jack Gilvey

05-24-2007, 07:34 AM

Jon Chappell

05-24-2007, 07:50 AM

It was mentioned before that someone gave up their TL since you couldn't tweak on-the-fly/live easily. It looks to me like all you'd do is hit the block you want to modify (i.e "amp") and grab a knob below (i.e. "treble"), no? It's an extra button, but I don't think you'd need to get into menus to tweak parameters. Is that the way it works?

Yes, one button press and you're in. Then the 6 value knobs (the shiny silver knurled ones, labeled clearly with a matrix underneath) are active. No menus or cursor arrows, all parameters accessible at once via big ol' knobs.

What is true is that you just can't see the value till you turn the knob, but if you're working "on the fly," it means you're doing something by ear. For example, let's say it's "I need more treble here." So you hit "Amp" and grab knob 3 (TONE/TREBLE). The knob becomes active once you move it.

If you want to find the original setting (the saved parameter of the program), you rotate the knob back and forth until you see "ORIG" in the display, and that tells you your starting point.

Jack Gilvey

05-24-2007, 09:32 AM

What is true is that you just can't see the value till you turn the knob, but if you're working "on the fly," it means you're doing something by ear. For example, let's say it's "I need more treble here." So you hit "Amp" and grab knob 3 (TONE/TREBLE). The knob becomes active once you move it.

Am I correct in assuming it works the same as my VTX in that the knob doesn't change anything until you hit the current/original value of the parameter (so as to avoid large jumps in value as soon as you touch it)?

aswhad

05-24-2007, 10:55 AM

Am I correct in assuming it works the same as my VTX in that the knob doesn't change anything until you hit the current/original value of the parameter (so as to avoid large jumps in value as soon as you touch it)?

sorry to say no it does not work that way, it changes immediatly.
>>> Jon said "The knob becomes active once you move it."
Even my almost antic Roland GS6 doesn't do that.

THX for the reply Jon.

Jack Gilvey

05-25-2007, 08:52 AM

sorry to say no it does not work that way, it changes immediatly.
>>> Jon said "The knob becomes active once you move it."
Even my almost antic Roland GS6 doesn't do that.

Got it...thanks.

wagdog

06-03-2007, 10:09 AM

I've been calling around to my "local" (that's sort of a misnomer, I'm 2 hours from anywhere) music stores and nobody has these in stock (I'm a try before buying kind-a-guy). Musiciansfriend, sweetwater, zzounds - none in stock.

Where would one go to actually try/buy one of these?!

Nuno_F

06-03-2007, 10:45 AM

Well I bought one a few weeks ago and after playing around with it, and recording some stuff I must say I am very pleased.

I was looking for better clean tone, and the tonelab LE with my new Highway one Telecaster is delivering the best clean tones I ever managed to get in my home studio. Funky liquid wah lines, very nice reggae type chords, and even very warm jazz sounds are all easily achievable with some tweaking.

I erased all the distortion patches as I came across them, so no opinion on those. The ones I listened to didn't sound very impressive to me, but then again I was using either a tele or a 56 goldtop, probably not the best guitars for high gain sounds.

I did experience the digital clicks mentioned previously, but once I synchronized my Fireface 800 to the Tonelab signal at the SPDIF input these went away. This really can't be considered a flaw as there as digital recording systems should really be synchronized to a master clock otherwise errors may happen. That being said, I have other gear (Alesis Fusion) connected to the ADAT input and it never produced any glitches.

All in all the grips I have with the unit are minor. As I mentioned before on the effects forum I find it very annoying that the values jump to the current knob position as soon as you touch them. There's no need for that at all.

I found the effects to be generally good. I particularly like the Univibe effect and the wah. I am not very impressed by the reverb, at least comparing to my IK multimedia CSR. I wouldn't record with it, but just for jamming it's fine.

My only other grip is the lack of a input level. I don't think I'll ever have any problems with clipping the digital input since my guitars generally have low output single coils but I'd imagine people with high output active humbuckers may have problems there.

The editor is also a nice addition. My praises to VOX for launching the product with one readily available.

sea

06-04-2007, 06:09 AM

You're also right that Vox designed this more with tone in mind, so that's where their focus is, and why the ToneLab LE is less expensive than the GT-8. It's fairly easy to look at the GT-8's signal topology, compare that with the ToneLab LE's, and have the GT-8 coming out on top, but consider that they did introduce an extra D/A-A/D conversion stage in the chain, so that the Insert/Pedal/Preamp signal (already digitized) could take advantage of the Valve Reactor technology (which is analog and occurs just after the preamp).

So Jon... are you saying you could connect the GT-8 into the LE and then have the TONE you want from the LE but the effects you want from the GT-8?

If so... that (IMHO) would be a great way to go!

SEA http://www.auburnfootball.com/GIFS/musik_2.gif

Jon Chappell

06-04-2007, 08:13 AM

So Jon... are you saying you could connect the GT-8 into the LE and then have the TONE you want from the LE but the effects you want from the GT-8?

Well, you could, but it's not ideal. The ToneLab offers one Loop point, which is at the very front of the chain, before the gain-shaping tools (Pedal Effect, Amp models, Valve Reactor, Cab models). Since can't change the placement of the loop, you'd have to run your guitar through all stages of the TL, bypassing all but the gain-shaping effects. Then you'd take the output and connect it to the Return of the GT-8 (placed appropriately).

So it's physically possible, but realistically, I don't think using two full-featured mfx in this way is a practical solution.