Modes and Scales [Archive] - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

Auggie Doggie

11-03-2002, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Metalcore4christ825

ah, okay, so modes are just playing a scale in a different position then?

Do yourself a favor: please, banish that thought from your mind. The most common misconception I see around here deals with modes.

Scales are made of notes. Fingering patterns are only a physical way of learning scales, but simply using a different position or pattern is NOT the same as playing 'modes'.

Modes depend more on the harmony than anything else. If you're playing over a C major chord, but using the so-called "D dorian" mode fingering, you are simply playing the C major scale in a position that most likely starts and ends on D. No matter where or how you play A B C D E F G over a C major chord, you are still playing a C MAJOR SCALE.

Now, if you're playing over a D minor chord, but you choose to play the notes from the C major scale, THEN you are playing D dorian (which is similar to D natural minor, except the 6th, normally a Bb, is now a B natural).

If you're confused about scales and modes, it's probably best to thoroughly learn the major/minor system (major, natural minor, melodic minor, and harmonic minor scales and the chords built from them). After you've got a good grip on that, THEN start worrying about modes.

Scales aren't just fingering patterns, and different fingering patterns and positions for scales are NOT modes.

PhunkyPhred

11-03-2002, 10:50 PM

thanks auggie doggie, for clearing that up.

my head was almost about to explode when i was trying to figure out "what fingering where?!?!" i really need to take some time to memorize every note on the fretboard... it'd help a lot. :( .

Metalcore4christ825

11-03-2002, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Do yourself a favor: please, banish that thought from your mind. The most common misconception I see around here deals with modes.

Scales are made of notes. Fingering patterns are only a physical way of learning scales, but simply using a different position or pattern is NOT the same as playing 'modes'.

Modes depend more on the harmony than anything else. If you're playing over a C major chord, but using the so-called "D dorian" mode fingering, you are simply playing the C major scale in a position that most likely starts and ends on D. No matter where or how you play A B C D E F G over a C major chord, you are still playing a C MAJOR SCALE.

Now, if you're playing over a D minor chord, but you choose to play the notes from the C major scale, THEN you are playing D dorian (which is similar to D natural minor, except the 6th, normally a Bb, is now a B natural).

If you're confused about scales and modes, it's probably best to thoroughly learn the major/minor system (major, natural minor, melodic minor, and harmonic minor scales and the chords built from them). After you've got a good grip on that, THEN start worrying about modes.

Scales aren't just fingering patterns, and different fingering patterns and positions for scales are NOT modes.

okay, now that I am totally confused...how about recommending a book that deals with scales and modes:confused:

Auggie Doggie

11-03-2002, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Metalcore4christ825

okay, now that I am totally confused...how about recommending a book that deals with scales and modes:confused:

Jeeze, I wish I could, but every book I've seen written for guitarists made the same mistake that I was talking about. Maybe I'll write one someday soon.

Until then, I'm sure someone here knows of a book that covers the subject correctly; hopefully they'll chime in.

If you are completely lost, I don't expect to be getting much sleep tonight, so ask away here if you'd like. I'll be around for a while.

stevehollx

11-03-2002, 11:56 PM

I was so confused on modes, until I stopped thinkin patterns, and tohught in intervals.

In any mode, you start and end on the Key. D dorian starts on D, as does D Ionian [same thing as major]. However, D ionian uses the intervals wwhwwwh and dorian uses whwwwhw. if you notice,dorian uses the same intervals as ionian, but dorian starts on the second interval. Thinking in positiions, it would be the same as playing C Major int he second fingering position, but resolvind playing around the D notes.

thamiam

11-04-2002, 11:01 AM

Modes are a two-headed beast. They can be looked at either as taking one scale and starting on a different degree, or as applying a set scale to any root. Here are all the major modes mapped out both ways.

Ascending roots, same scale, different root:

C Ionian = C D E F G A B C = Cmaj7 = no#'s or b's
D Dorian = D E F G A B C D = Dmin7 = b3 b7
E Phrygian = E F G A B C D = Emin7b9 = b2 b3 b6 b7
F Lydian = F G A B C D E F = Fmaj7#4 = #4
G Mixolydian = G A B C D E F G = G7 (dominant 7th) = b7
A Aeolian = A B C D E F G A = Amin7 = b3 b6 b7
B Locrian = B C D E F G A B = B half-diminished = b2 b3 b5 b6 b7

Fixed root, different scales:

C Ionian = C D E F G A B C = Cmaj7 = no#'s or b's
C Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C = Cmin7 = b3 b7
C Phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C = Cmin7b9 = b2 b3 b6 b7
C Lydian = C D E F# G A B C = Cmaj7#4 = #4
C Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C = C7 = b7
C Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb C = Cmin7 = b3 b6 b7
C Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C = C half-diminished = b2 b3 b5 b6 b7

As you can see, the mode names are simply short hand for particular chord/scales. Most people learn the top method, but don't ever understand that it is part of a broader scheme.

There is another "grid" for minor scales, and in fact every scale can have its own set of modes. The names will stay the same, but the chord/scales will change. Try to figure it out for yourself, if you have trouble, give a holla and we'll lend a hand.

Hope this helps.

gtrdave

11-04-2002, 01:05 PM

The Guitar Handbook

Knopf publishers

recommended for any guitarist, myself and r0g3r have learned so much from it.

It will answer your mode questions and probably many others that you have.

:)

dannydigital

11-04-2002, 02:17 PM

wow.. where do i start?!?

hah

would memorizing all the notes on the fretboard be the best place to start? i know most on the e, a, and d strings but certianly not all of them w/o thinkin a second or two.

someone start a thread that is like STEP 1 and maybe we can have a series of howto threads :)

Roadstar II

11-04-2002, 09:12 PM

Scales are a great way to memorize the fretboard. Keep playing the scales up and down the neck. It will pay off, especially for soloing.

J the D

11-05-2002, 06:43 AM

I find it easier to visualize using a piano keyboard.

Imagine playing all the white notes from C (or the one in non-key reference) up an octave up to the next C. You have just played a C major scale. A mode is starting on a different note and only using the white keys.

The Dorian mode starts on the D (or the two). Play from D up an octave to D using only the white keys. You just played a D Dorian scale.

If you start on the A and play up to the next higher A you are playing an A minor scale which is the Relative Minor to the C major key. Minor keys come in two versions, the melodic and the harmonic. The difference is in the sixth and seventh note in the minor scale. The harmonic scale is faithful to the white keys and you would play from F natural to G natural to the A in a harmonic minor scale. You would play the same notes going down the scale.

The melodic minor "tempers" the harmonic minor scale for the human ear by raising the seventh note in a scale a half step going up and reverting to the same natural "untempered" harmonic scale notes going down. For A melodic minor you would play F natural-G sharp-A going up and A-G natural-F natural going down.

Other modes start on the relative numbered note of the C major scale. IIRC Mixolydian starts on the 5 (start on the G and go up an octave only playing the white keys) and Lydian starts on the 4 (start on the F and only play the white keys). Modes starting on the other notes (3 or E natural and 7 or B natural) have an initial half step from 1 to 2 in them which does not sound good to our Western Ear and are rarely used.

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by J the D

Imagine playing all the white notes from C (or the one in non-key reference) up an octave up to the next C. You have just played a C major scale. A mode is starting on a different note and only using the white keys.

The Dorian mode starts on the D (or the two). Play from D up an octave to D using only the white keys. You just played a D Dorian scale.

There is NO SUCH THING as a "dorian scale". Also, playing from D to D on the white keys is NOT a mode, which I explained in an earlier post. To play D Dorian, you have to play the notes of a C Major scale over a D minor harmony; the major 6th (B) is what differentiates it from simply being the D Natural Minor scale.

If you start on the A and play up to the next higher A you are playing an A minor scale which is the Relative Minor to the C major key. Minor keys come in two versions, the melodic and the harmonic.

Wrong! There is the pure (aka natural or Aeolian) minor and 'jazz minor' as well.

The difference is in the sixth and seventh note in the minor scale. The harmonic scale is faithful to the white keys and you would play from F natural to G natural to the A in a harmonic minor scale. You would play the same notes going down the scale.

Wrong! The A harmonic minor scale is A B C D E F G#. The harmonic minor is like pure minor with a raised seventh.

The melodic minor "tempers" the harmonic minor scale for the human ear by raising the seventh note in a scale a half step going up and reverting to the same natural "untempered" harmonic scale notes going down. For A melodic minor you would play F natural-G sharp-A going up and A-G natural-F natural going down.

WRONG! The melodic minor raises the 6th in a harmonic minor scale (in the ascending form) to avoid a leap of a third and to create more 'pull' toward the 7th. The descending form is identical to the pure minor.

Other modes start on the relative numbered note of the C major scale. IIRC Mixolydian starts on the 5 (start on the G and go up an octave only playing the white keys) and Lydian starts on the 4 (start on the F and only play the white keys). Modes starting on the other notes (3 or E natural and 7 or B natural) have an initial half step from 1 to 2 in them which does not sound good to our Western Ear and are rarely used.

Again, you are mistaking scale patterns for modes. They are not the same, and are therefore not interchangeable. Also, in your last paragraph you mention that modes that contain a minor 2nd are rarely used; I suppose that you are unaware of the countless pieces of music that rely heavily upon a Phrygian sound? It's one the most commonly used modes.

I'm sure you meant well, but the amount of misinformation in your post is indicative of the confusion that guitarists have with this subject.

J the D

11-05-2002, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Again, you are mistaking scale patterns for modes. They are not the same, and are therefore not interchangeable. Also, in your last paragraph you mention that modes that contain a minor 2nd are rarely used; I suppose that you are unaware of the countless pieces of music that rely heavily upon a Phrygian sound? It's one the most commonly used modes.

I'm sure you meant well, but the amount of misinformation in your post is indicative of the confusion that guitarists have with this subject.

Just about everything any Western musician every plays, including every mode, is some type of scale of eight notes with different intervals of a half or a whole step between succeeding notes (or even a step and a half in melodic minor), all of which are taken from a twelve half-step chromatic scale. We name the different patterns different things. They may start on a different point on that chromatic scale and may have different sized intervals between each note but you get right down to the basics they are still nothing but an eight note scale pattern.

The idea of switching between the harmonic minor and Dorian modes in a bass line is to bend the tonal structure of the song to something slightly different and bringing it back to what you are starting with. Dorian and minor intervals are very similar and, IMHO, contrasting bass lines built on the two make an interesting tapestry.

If you were to try the keyboard excercise I described and compare the intervals between the white keys to what your beginning music theory book shows as the intervals in a modal scale you would see they are the precisely same. You are trying to make it WAY too complicated.

I may have messed as to the names of which modes start on which note of the C scale (thought that was covered with the "IIRC" reference) for but try as I might I can't think of a single song that has a half step as the interval between the tonic and the two. Perhaps you can elighten me.

YMMV

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by J the D

Just about everything any Western musician every plays, including every mode, is some type of scale of eight notes with different intervals of a half or a whole step between succeeding notes (or even a step and a half in melodic minor),

There is no "step and a half" between consecutive degrees of a melodic minor scale.

all of which are taken from a twelve half-step chromatic scale. We name the different patterns different things. They may start on a different point on that chromatic scale and may have different sized intervals between each note but you get right down to the basics they are still nothing but an eight note scale pattern.

A mode is NOT a "pattern".

If you were to try the keyboard excercise I described and compare the intervals between the white keys to what your beginning music theory book shows as the intervals in a modal scale you would see they are the precisely same. You are trying to make it WAY too complicated.

I'm not making it TOO complicated; you are oversimplifying, and doing so in erroneous fashion. In your example, playing D E F G A B C D all by itself is not 'modal'. Now, if you play those notes, in ANY order, over a D minor harmony, THEN it will be Dorian; the B natural in place of the Bb that's diatonic to D minor that makes it so.

Reducing this concept to simply an order of notes (which typically coincides with a fingering pattern on an instrument), with no regard to the harmony behind it, is inaccurate. While some 'beginning music theory books' may try to pass off D E F G A B C D as 'dorian', that is ONLY the case when those notes are used over a D minor harmony. When limited to strictly diatonic harmony, that's only one out of 7 instances. That means that calling that sequence of notes 'dorian' is incorrect in 6 out of 7 settings. If you do NOT limit the harmony to being strictly diatonic, the chances for being correct get considerably smaller.

Due to the nature of learning processes, it is necessary to start with the most basic concepts and build from there. Unfortunately, many players are taking those basics out of context and applying them across the board. The result is a "cut and paste" procedure, wherein the player gets caught up in applying a certain fingering pattern to a specific situation. In music itself, there is no such thing as a fingering pattern; there are only notes.

Since chord playing and melody playing are often separate concepts for guitarists, the misconceptions multiply. This 'dorian' situation is a prime example. You can play D E F G A B C D until the cows come home, but that doesn't mean it's dorian. In and of itself, it is nothing but the C Major scale starting and ending on D. Without a harmonic context, the ear is pulled to "C". Now, playing those notes over a D minor chord WILL give you a dorian mode. But since most guitarists learn their scales (and the modes thereof) in a musical vacuum (ie devoid of accompanying harmony), they generally assume that playing D->D with no sharps or flats is as dorian as Mr. Gray's picture.

I may have messed as to the names of which modes start on which note of the C scale

Messing up the names as such is another thing that leads to much confusion and error.

for but try as I might I can't think of a single song that has a half step as the interval between the tonic and the two. Perhaps you can elighten me.

YMMV

Ever listen to Flamenco or Spanish music in general?

Hordes of metal songs use the flat II chord. (Metallica's 'Sad But True" and "Wherever I May Roam" come to mind as obvious examples)

The Neopolitan chord, while a very remote harmony, has become 'acceptable' through convention.

Notice that I called it the Neopolitan CHORD; it is only in a harmonic context that a sequence of notes become modal. While harmony may be implicit in a given line, certain notes take precedence when determining that harmony, specifically the root, third, and fifth. Understanding what is meant by "harmonic tones" and "non-harmonic tones" is of utmost importance when studying harmony, and understanding harmony is of utmost importance when studying modes. It is for that reason that modes are not an essential concept in 'basic theory'; the concept of 'modes' goes far beyond a fingering pattern or a stand-alone series of notes.

MrSage

11-05-2002, 01:51 PM

Aaaaargh....

(did you guys ever see "Scanners"?)

J the D

11-05-2002, 02:49 PM

OK.

evan_02

11-05-2002, 03:18 PM

hey auggie doggie:
is a neopolitan chord just one with a b9? i had neopolitan pizza once, is it an italian thing, i always thought of phrygian as spanish sounding...
oh, i just bought some of that glucosamine stuff for my tendonitus...about how long is the loading period, a week or two? i couldn't get the chondroitinen or whatever it's called cause all the supplements have sulfur in them, and i'm allergic to sulfur based meds...
oh-FINALLY! someone who explains modes in the context of harmony!!!
hey J the D:
Natural minor= root, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6. b7
Harmonic minor=root, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
Melodic minor ascending (jazz minor)=root, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7
i still don't know what you mean by using dorian and harmonic minor interchangably, cause they have very different harmonies

gtrdave

11-05-2002, 03:28 PM

If you want to learn everything there is to know about scale/modes/harmony/melody/frequency then may I suggest this site:

All About Scales (http://tyala.freeyellow.com/4scales.htm#Scale)

Take your time...remember; small bites.

:)

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by evan_02
hey auggie doggie:
is a neopolitan chord just one with a b9?

It's not a chord with a flat 9; it's the major triad built on the flat 9 (or 2, whichever you prefer). For instance, in the key of C major, a Db major chord is the Neopolitan chord. Typically the Neopolitan chord will contain a 6th, and is then referred to as a "Neopolitan Sixth Chord".

i had neopolitan pizza once, is it an italian thing, i always thought of phrygian as spanish sounding...

Neopolitan refers to that which comes from Naples, so that expains the connection to the pizza. Interestingly, when you get into such "sixth chords", there are Italian, French, and German varieties, but that's a story for another thread.

oh, i just bought some of that glucosamine stuff for my tendonitus...about how long is the loading period, a week or two? i couldn't get the chondroitinen or whatever it's called cause all the supplements have sulfur in them, and i'm allergic to sulfur based meds...

It usually takes about 2-4 weeks, provided, of course, that you are resting the muscles and tendons as much as possible. In my case, it took about 2 weeks, but an entire month may go by before you see the results. Just keep taking the stuff as directed, and don't skip any doses. Massage and moist heat will help to keep the muscles and tendons relaxed.

oh-FINALLY! someone who explains modes in the context of harmony!!!

The way I see it, without harmonic context, there are no modes.:cool:

hey J the D:
Natural minor= root, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6. b7
Harmonic minor=root, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
Melodic minor ascending (jazz minor)=root, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7
i still don't know what you mean by using dorian and harmonic minor interchangably, cause they have very different harmonies

I'm curious about how he's doing that myself. :confused:

J the D

11-05-2002, 08:15 PM

Isn't the only difference between a D harmonic minor scale and the dorian mode intervals when starting on a D (I did not call it a scale even though it does have eight notes) that ione has a b flat and the other has a B natural? Doesn't seem that far apart to me. Switching from one to the other in an underlying bass line gives a different taste without a major change.

J the D

11-05-2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

I'm curious about how he's doing that myself. :confused:

Perhaps if you actually tried the keyboard excercise before dissing it much of your confusion would be lifted and you would no longer have to complicate things so much.

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by J the D
Isn't the only difference between a D harmonic minor scale and the dorian mode intervals when starting on a D (I did not call it a scale even though it does have eight notes) that ione has a b flat and the other has a B natural? Doesn't seem that far apart to me. Switching from one to the other in an underlying bass line gives a different taste without a major change.

D dorian notes: D E F G A B C D

D harmonic minor notes: D E F G A Bb C# D

The raised 7th in the harmonic minor is what gives it its 'harmonic' status, as that C# is the third of the A major (or A7) chord, which is the dominant. In a V-I or V-i cadence, the major third of the V is the leading tone of the I or i, which is what gives it such a strong sense of resolution. Without the C#, the harmony does not gravitate toward D minor.

J the D

11-05-2002, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Without the C#, the harmony does not gravitate toward D minor.

Precisely. I knew if we kept simplifying things you would begin to understand. That's why switching a bass line from minor to Dorian mode can take the entore tonal structure somewhere else and yet allow you to come back to your minor key without major chordal trauma. Bet your bass players are doing it a lot more than you guys ever realize.

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by J the D

Perhaps if you actually tried the keyboard excercise before dissing it much of your confusion would be lifted and you would no longer have to complicate things so much.

I have no confusion in this matter, but it is obvious that you do.

Your keyboard EXERCISE (only one 'C' in the word) does not define or explain modes; it only offers a simplified (and incomplete) spelling of what constitutes a given mode of the C major scale.

It's much like giving someone the following letters:

E I M R T

and having them use them on a Scrabble board. Using the same letters, one could spell:

timer
merit
remit
time
mite
rite
mitre
miter
rim
tire

etc etc etc

If you had a sentence in which there was a blank space to fill (using those letters to make the word), then the CONTEXT would give a strong indication which to use. But without that context, the letters' meaning is undetermined.

Music is the same way; with no context, a group of notes has little meaning. That is why your keyboard example falls short, and it likely is partly to blame for your lack of comprehension of the subject. I am not 'dissing it'; I am aware of its shortcomings, and the fact that you REFUSE to try and understand all I said about CONTEXT, while displaying a thorough lack of comprehension of the various minor scales and their uses, demonstrates the type of confusion that many players have when it comes to theory.

Auggie Doggie

11-05-2002, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by J the D

Precisely. I knew if we kept simplifying things you would begin to understand. That's why switching a bass line from minor to Dorian mode can take the entore tonal structure somewhere else and yet allow you to come back to your minor key without major chordal trauma. Bet your bass players are doing it a lot more than you guys ever realize.

BS, man. By your post, it is obvious that you didn't even know there WAS a C# in D harmonic minor, let alone how to use it.

Nice try, though.

WattsUrizen

11-06-2002, 03:33 AM

Auggie Doggie, you are 100% correct. Good on you for setting some of these guys straight. It gets a little tiresome for me as well seeing people get into all sorts of confusion in regards to modes. I think you have explained things rather well, but I'll had some of my own points, if I may.

Firstly, and rather briefly, in regard to the Neopolitan chord. While it is correct to say that it is founded upon the b9, it usually exists as a 6/3 chord, as an alteration of the chord founded upon the fourth degree of the scale. Hence the name Neopolitan Sixth.

Secondly, unfortunately, I can't think of any good books that explain modes in great detail. However one book that I did read a while ago does have a chapter on Impressionist harmony, and goes through the influence of modal harmony. The main principles are:

1. Lack of the leading tone.
2. Triad qualities relating to a mode rather than diatonic scales.
3. Root progressions utilising the full scope of chromaticism.
4. Resolution of seventh chords in non traditional manners.
5. Vague sense of 'key' due to non-diatonic-ity.

Now, I have some degree of discomfort with point 2, regarding the word 'triad' since this usually conjures up the thought of the diatonic system. It is important to recognise that the word 'triad' refers to a three note chord in general, and not specifically the diatonic triad.

Note also the loose sense of the word 'key'. Here we are really referring to a point of resolution, a key center, not a diatonic key as such.

J the D

11-06-2002, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

BS, man. By your post, it is obvious that you didn't even know there WAS a C# in D harmonic minor, let alone how to use it.

Nice try, though.

You caught this old man in a brain fart. Your comment made me stop and think about why you were confused and go back and re-read previous posts. I use harmonic minor scales every day when I warm up with the Circle of 5ths but stopping to think about what my fingers are doing is what is troublesome to this old brain.

My original post should have been comparing between the natural minor mode and the Dorian mode (ie dm and D Dorian). The only difference between those two is the flatted sixth for the minor and the natural sixth for the Dorian (b flat for dm and B natural for the Dorian). I don't like to be on the bad side of someone, especially at the beginning, and I am very sorry for my error. Please forgive me.

Using the flatted seventh (natural minor) and/or Dorian intervals in the bass line when playing in a minor key helps establish a disonance centered on the i that begs to be resolved to the iv. Guitar players are typically doing a lead line coming up or down to the iv to start their next riff from the fourth (or g) and Dorian intervals in the bass line typically blend in well with the fleeting chord structure changes the lead line is creating.

Using our dm example, if the guitar riff is going up to the iv how many guitar players are going to play E-F#-G instead of E-F-G? Or coming down to the iv use B-A-G instead of Bflat-A-G? What do you do? Would a bass line using B natural instead of B flat leading down to the iv work for you? Or, by staying solely in the minor mode, will I be playing a B flat against your B natural?

In one of your later posts you detailed D Dorian as:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

As I look at them I note they are all white keys on the piano. Not a single flat or sharp (black keys) among them. Have you tried the keyboard excercise yet?

J the D

11-06-2002, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Now, if you're playing over a D minor chord, but you choose to play the notes from the C major scale, THEN you are playing D dorian (which is similar to D natural minor, except the 6th, normally a Bb, is now a B natural).

If the guitar player is using the Dorian mode shouldn't the bass player be using it too?

Auggie Doggie

11-06-2002, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by J the D

You caught this old man in a brain fart.

Heh...you caught this old man in the middle of a bout with the flu or some equally distressing viral-based illness.

My original post should have been comparing between the natural minor mode and the Dorian mode (ie dm and D Dorian). The only difference between those two is the flatted sixth for the minor and the natural sixth for the Dorian (b flat for dm and B natural for the Dorian).

Correct! Well, I should say 'correct but incomplete', since the use of one note over the other implies a different set of diatonic harmonies. If you trace each back to their parent scales, the D dorian becomes C major and the D minor becomes F major. Since they're a fifth apart, they are very closely related keys. Anyway, when you substitute the B for the Bb to create a dorian mode, every chord that had B as a harmonic tone will be altered as a result. But, the basis of your above statement is certainly true.

I don't like to be on the bad side of someone, especially at the beginning, and I am very sorry for my error. Please forgive me

Nothing to forgive. :) Confusion/misunderstanding/argument for the sake of intelligent discussion and the furthering of the participants' knowledge leads to GOOD things; it certainly wouldn't put someone on my bad side. And with any luck, all this bickering back anf forth might clarify the whol concept for others. (If you REALLY want to get on my bad side, try to tell me that classical musicians have no 'soul' but flog-jockies are pure 'art'...that would do the trick!)

Using our dm example, if the guitar riff is going up to the iv

For the sake of clarity, please use upper case Roman numerals for major chords, and lower case for minor. In your comments below, you discuss swapping B and Bb, which would yield a IV (major), and a iv (minor), respectively. Without using upper/lower case designations, it's pretty darn hard to be 100% certain of which gender (major or minor) you intend.

how many guitar players are going to play E-F#-G instead of E-F-G?

Well, using F# would momentarily destroy the notion of Dm as the tonality while strengthening the move to the iv (or IV in the case of a dorian progression). Based on that, I think the majority of players would choose F natural, since the Dm harmony would take precedence.

Or coming down to the iv use B-A-G instead of Bflat-A-G?

Here we're delving into the descending form of the melodic minor (or, more simply, the pure minor), so the Bb would make more sense. If you're headed toward a G minor chord, using B natural along the way would likely make the Bb in the iv chord seem out of place.

What do you do? Would a bass line using B natural instead of B flat leading down to the iv work for you?

If I was working in a dorian setting, I would use the B natural in the bass, but the harmonies above that bass would follow suit. In other words, the B note would be justified (functionally) in accord with the parent scale of C major. Specifically, the B would function as the third of the rootless G7b9 (many players would consider this a Bdim7 or reasonable facsimile; personally I don't think of a diminished chord built on the leading tone of a major scale as having its own harmonic function), the third of a G or G7 chord, and possibly the 5th of an Em chord.

Or, by staying solely in the minor mode, will I be playing a B flat against your B natural?

If adhering to the minor mode (as opposed to Dorian), your Bb would not go against my B natural, as I would choose Bb.

In one of your later posts you detailed D Dorian as:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

As I look at them I note they are all white keys on the piano. Not a single flat or sharp (black keys) among them. Have you tried the keyboard exercise yet?

When I first began examining what modes were (long before I understood them), I 'learned' them via the all-white-key method on a piano. While this visually cleared up the intervallic makeup of the modes, it did nothing to explain them.

As I said earlier, simply playing only the white keys on a piano, regardless of starting or stopping points, emphatically screams out "C MAJOR". It is only when those notes (again, regardless of start/stop points) are played over a D minor harmony that the Dorian mode comes into being.

If you disagree with this, go to a piano, play only the white keys with your right hand, but play an E minor chord with the left. Voila!-instant Phrygian. Same melody notes from the 'dorian mode'...hell, even the same melody...but over that Em background the mode changes. Likewise, play an F chord--LYDIAN.......G chord--MIXOLYDIAN...A minor---AEOLIAN...B diminished---LOCRIAN. In all these cases, the same notes that were once labeled 'D Dorian' suddenly morph into different modes. The harmony defines the function of the melody notes. Without any harmonic context, those notes are just plain old C major. The reasons for this are based both on conditioning and the actual physics of the overtone series. Discussing those particular topics would involve a great deal of typing, far exceeding an amount I would consider acceptable at this moment. And judging by the lengths of some of my posts, you know that's GOT to be a lot! :D

Auggie Doggie

11-06-2002, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by J the D

If the guitar player is using the Dorian mode shouldn't the bass player be using it too?

I would hope so!

But remember that you had said:

"one has a b flat and the other has a B natural? Doesn't seem that far apart to me. Switching from one to the other in an underlying bass line gives a different taste without a major change."

If the bass line used a B natural, then everything else would also use that B natural. Same goes for using Bb. To my ears, interchanging them in the bass WOULD be a fairly major change, as it would restructure the entire harmonic structure. Outside of the bass using the 'wrong' note of the two as a passing tone (aka 'non-harmonic' or 'non-functional' tone), the entire harmony would have to reflect the changes implied by it.

I hope that makes sense.:confused:

J the D

11-06-2002, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

If the bass line used a B natural, then everything else would also use that B natural. Same goes for using Bb.

Many, many, many guitar players don't follow classic theory so precisely. No argument that they probably should. Keyboard players tend to do much. much better. The examples of a guitar player (incorrectly?) going into Dorian mode during a change occurs quite frequently in my experience and I just try to go where they go in order to make everything work.

Keeping things as simple as possible makes it a lot easier for me. I can think about the keyboard and the white keys and very quickly be comfortable with the interval and arpeggiated relationships I'm supposed to be using in any particular mode in any key. YMMV

Tots

11-06-2002, 09:44 AM

Auggie Doggie
While can agree with most of what you say I think you may be doing the beginiers a diservice. Fact is if you play D E F G A B C D you have just played the D dorian mode. I agree thatthis is not the whole concept, but that does not make it inccorect as you have stated.

Auggie Doggie

11-06-2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Tots
Auggie Doggie
Fact is if you play D E F G A B C D you have just played the D dorian mode.

The 'fact' is that playing D E F G A B C D CAN be the D dorian mode. It can also be C major, E phrygian, F lydian, g mixolydian, a aeolian, b locrian, or any combination of them. Playing those notes, by themselves, is NOT the dorian mode.

I agree thatthis is not the whole concept

If you limit yourself to only diatonic harmony in a major key, it is only 1/7 the concept. That means the vast majority of possibilities (6 out of 7) is left unaccounted for.

, but that does not make it inccorect as you have stated.

I think it DOES make it incorrect, by virtue of its leaving out 6 of 7 cases (and that's only in a diatonic setting!). Calling D E F G A B C D the 'dorian mode' leaves out FAR too much relevant and necessary information to be 'correct'. When the less-initiated players see the grossly oversimplified and incomplete explanation, and adopt that perspective as 'fact', they are not only mistaken, they are also headed for more confusion further down the road. Once a schema is set in the brain, that brain will categorize things in accord with that schema, reject further information that conflicts with that schema, and possibly form a NEW schema. If someone establishes "oversimplified mode schema", when they run across a much more thorough and complete explanation of modes, they could very well create "complete mode schema". Since there would be two schemas (schemi?) that share a common bond but otherwise contradictory information, it is very difficult to overcome that. Educational psychology, anatomy & physiology, and epistemology all play a HUGE part in people's ability to learn, comprehend, and apply new ideas and skills. Starting off with severely insufficient or inaccurate information can have a crippling effect on the brain.

As I mentioned earlier, it is quite important to have a strong grasp of the major/minor system before venturing into modes. While modes are, by no means, among the most complicated and difficult of music theory concepts, they are a little beyond the realm of 'basic music theory'. If the information I've been presenting in this thread seems too complicated, then those who are confused or overwhelmed by it are simply not quite ready for it. That's not an insult by any means, although I am sure that some will take it as one. For those that DO have a solid grasp of the major/minor system, then the material in this thread will make much more sense. If nothing else, I somewhat hope that those who find it 'too much to take' will heed my advice and get cracking on more fundamental, and frankly more useful, concepts.

Tots

11-06-2002, 11:10 AM

When you were taught the alphabet your were probably taught the letter A and the sound it makes first. The fact that you did not know the other 25 letters did not make your knowlage of the letter A inccorect. I agree with your line of think, but think you are jumping to teaching people to run before they know how to walk.
If I check my theory books from collage or the ones I teach from nowdays they both agree that D E F G A B C D = Dorion mode in the key of C. From where did you get your information that this is inncorrect?

J the D

11-06-2002, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Tots
If I check my theory books from collage or the ones I teach from nowdays they both agree that D E F G A B C D = Dorion mode in the key of C.

Praise God! I'm not the only Phillistine.

Auggie Doggie

11-06-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Tots
When you were taught the alphabet your were probably taught the letter A and the sound it makes first. The fact that you did not know the other 25 letters did not make your knowlage of the letter A inccorect.

Everyone I know had developed the following before they actually learned the alphabet: a rather large vocabulary of words attached to meanings for those words, the ability to string words into meaningful phrases, the ability to string words and phrases into meaningful sentences, and the ability to comprehend the words, phrases, and sentences of others and respond in a meaningful and appropriate way.

People acquire syntax and communication skills long before they learn to read. When it comes time to learn to read, phonics become a major point of struggle. Phonics skills enable one to spell (and read) properly. Modes are much like phonics; but in this case, a lydian sound is not nearly as neatly defined as 'mommy', 'daddy', or 'potty', so the background of familiarity and certainty is lacking. The sequence of learning the language of music is quite different from learning spoken language, and while there are comparisons that can easily be drawn, they do not parallel one another.

I agree with your line of think, but think you are jumping to teaching people to run before they know how to walk.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I am equating the basics with walking, modes with running, and I openly discourage players who haven't completely grasped the fundamentals from delving into an area that they are (as yet) unprepared to handle.

If I check my theory books from collage or the ones I teach from nowdays they both agree that D E F G A B C D = Dorion mode in the key of C.

My bottom line: D E F G A B C D CAN be d dorian, but it can also be many OTHER things. Simply thinking of those notes in that order, devoid of context, is what countless players have done, and their comprehension of modes is severely impaired. The absolute worst is when guitarists 'learn' their 'modes' as nothing more than fingering patterns and scale positions on the neck. This is something I am hoping to prevent.

From where did you get your information that this is inncorrect?

I have studied much about music from MANY sources: teachers, books, sheet music, harmonic analyses, etc., and from all that I have amassed a fairly thorough body of knowledge. If you want a specific instance, back when I was taking Piano in college, I was just sitting around chatting with the instructor. The conversation turned to modes, and I was hit with an interactive one-on-one discourse on modal theory that I will never forget. He went through much of what's been said in this thread and more, and he relayed how many years of misconceptions and incomplete information he has tried to fix in his students during his decades of teaching.

That conversation left a lasting impression.

Tots

11-06-2002, 01:00 PM

Everyone I know had developed the following before they actually learned the alphabet: a rather large vocabulary of words attached to meanings for those words, the ability to string words into meaningful phrases, the ability to string words and phrases into meaningful sentences, and the ability to comprehend the words, phrases, and sentences of others and respond in a meaningful and appropriate way.
People acquire syntax and communication skills long before they learn to read. When it comes time to learn to read, phonics become a major point of struggle. Phonics skills enable one to spell (and read) properly. Modes are much like phonics; but in this case, a lydian sound is not nearly as neatly defined as 'mommy', 'daddy', or 'potty', so the background of familiarity and certainty is lacking. The sequence of learning the language of music is quite different from learning spoken language, and while there are comparisons that can easily be drawn, they do not parallel one another.

Actually music IS a language buy many definitions. Everyone I know had developed the following before they learned modes. A rather large vocabulary of notes, intervals,phrases and chords.The ability to string together phrases into melodys. People develope these skills long before the know what a mode is. Language and music quite similar, wouldn't you say?

If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I am equating the basics with walking, modes with running, and I openly discourage players who haven't completely grasped the fundamentals from delving into an area that they are (as yet) unprepared to handle.

Yes I saw that. If you would read my post carefully yuo'll see that I am equating the notes with walking and harmonis content with running. Notes of the modes are the walking and none of us run before we walk.

My bottom line: D E F G A B C D CAN be d dorian,
Good to see you rethought that.

but it can also be many OTHER things. Simply thinking of those notes in that order, devoid of context, is what countless players have done, and their comprehension of modes is severely impaired. The absolute worst is when guitarists 'learn' their 'modes' as nothing more than fingering patterns and scale positions on the neck. This is something I am hoping to prevent.

Agreed!

From where did you get your information that this is inncorrect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have studied much about music from MANY sources: teachers, books, sheet music, harmonic analyses, etc., and from all that I have amassed a fairly thorough body of knowledge. If you want a specific instance, back when I was taking Piano in college, I was just sitting around chatting with the instructor. The conversation turned to modes, and I was hit with an interactive one-on-one discourse on modal theory that I will never forget. He went through much of what's been said in this thread and more, and he relayed how many years of misconceptions and incomplete information he has tried to fix in his students during his decades of teaching.

That conversation left a lasting impression.

It is obvious that you have a great deal of knowlage in theory. Your points would be very well taken with an advanced student or at the collage level. At the beginer level I like to stress " yes it's that easy". I think if I overwhelmed new students with the complexities from the start they would get discouraged and quit. I'm glad I was fed only what I could digest as I was learning or I might have given up as well.

WattsUrizen

11-07-2002, 07:16 PM

Bottom line, D E F G A B C D is not the Dorian mode if played in isolation.

It is a great disservice to beginners if you implant misconceptions in their mind. Do things right from the word go.

How hard is it to grasp that a mode requires context to function as a specific mode?

J the D

11-07-2002, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Anomandaris
How hard is it to grasp that a mode requires context to function as a specific mode?

How hard is it for you and Aggie Duggy to grasp that the rest of the world considers a modal scale to be what ESTABLISHES the context even if you don't?

WattsUrizen

11-07-2002, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by J the D
How hard is it for you and Aggie Duggy to grasp that the rest of the world considers a modal scale to be what ESTABLISHES the context even if you don't?

Yes, the notes of the mode establish the context, but you can't play those notes in isolation and call it a certain mode.

WattsUrizen

11-07-2002, 07:47 PM

The point being that people who see theory as being merely of grammatical or labelling significance have a misconception.

Theory is about understanding the functional significance of musical entities.

J the D

11-07-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Anomandaris
The point being that people who see theory as being merely of grammatical or labelling significance have a misconception.

Theory is about understanding the functional significance of musical entities.

No one denies that the intimate esoteric understanding of modes will make you a better musican. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to get a classical music theory education. I did as a music performance major and consider it invaluable in how it has affected my playing.

Everyone is different and have a primary method of learning. For some its visual, for other auditory, others have to touch it to get it. What I and others have tried to do is provide some simple visualization tools and other ways to help others less fortunate than you and Aggie and I understand what a mode is and how to determine the interval stucture within.

If someone does not have a certain ability he generally has to crawl before he walks. In other words we need to explain modes to othersin terms and concepts they understand even if using those same terms and concepts would mean we fail our doctoral dissertation. Even Aggie told the story of sitting in his college Piano Class and discussing modes with his instructor and how the light came on. Let's try and make those lights shine rather than snuffing them out with our superior knowledge, OK?

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 02:24 AM

I agree with you, totally. But again, I think it is a disservice to implant misconceptions. There is a difference between a simplification and just plain wrong.

For instance, in isolation, two G triads in root position sound identical. But in a piece of music their functional significance can be extremely different. Context.

If it helps you to remember what those names (Ionian, Dorian, etc) refer to, then by all means, learn their 'patterns'. But don't get the idea that this defines the mode. That is all I am saying. Oversimplifications tend to cause trouble, rather than help understanding.

J the D

11-08-2002, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by Anomandaris
If it helps you to remember what those names (Ionian, Dorian, etc) refer to, then by all means, learn their 'patterns'. But don't get the idea that this defines the mode.

This is where we apparently have a very basic difference in what we were taught in our music theory classes. I was taught that the interval pattern of the key you were playing in is precisely what defines the mode. From other comments it seems many other posters were taught exactly the same thing.

If there is something I can learn from you and Auggie I want to know it. Please explain how YOU define the mode you are playing in without refering to the interval pattern. Please use very simple terms I can understand since this is completely contrary to how it was originally taught to me and I am going to have to unlearn what I learned those many years ago.

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by J the D
This is where we apparently have a very basic difference in what we were taught in our music theory classes. I was taught that the interval pattern of the key you were playing in is precisely what defines the mode. From other comments it seems many other posters were taught exactly the same thing.

If there is something I can learn from you and Auggie I want to know it. Please explain how YOU define the mode you are playing in without refering to the interval pattern. Please use very simple terms I can understand since this is completely contrary to how it was originally taught to me and I am going to have to unlearn what I learned those many years ago.

Ok, if you have D E F G A B C D, then this is the D Dorian mode. However it does not function as the Dorian mode if played in isolation. It requires a context so that the D is determined as the point of resolution.

The C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc all have the same notes, so if you play them in isolation they all have functional equivalence.

What determines the mode then is how this pattern is used to create a whole musical entity. You can use D E F G A B C D all you want, but if the integrated whole resolves to F, it's going to sound Lydian, not Dorian.

The difference is functional, not grammatical.

Tots

11-08-2002, 06:46 AM

I am curios, are you guys stating opnion or do you have reference from which your points are drawn?

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Tots
I am curios, are you guys stating opnion or do you have reference from which your points are drawn?

Schenkerian analysis.

J the D

11-08-2002, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Anomandaris

Ok, if you have D E F G A B C D, then this is the D Dorian mode. However it does not function as the Dorian mode if played in isolation. It requires a context so that the D is determined as the point of resolution.

The C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc all have the same notes, so if you play them in isolation they all have functional equivalence.

What determines the mode then is how this pattern is used to create a whole musical entity. You can use D E F G A B C D all you want, but if the integrated whole resolves to F, it's going to sound Lydian, not Dorian.

The difference is functional, not grammatical.

I think I understand now where you are coming from. Are you are saying a mode can not be defined without knowing what the tonic note is? If this is true I agree completely.

The point I have been trying to make is that modal relationships are interval patterns that are transferable to any tonic. Learn the inverval patterns and you can easily determine on the fly what mode you are playing in with the particular key structure being used. The interval relationships never change, only what note they start on. Knowing the interval structures allows me to have someone say, "I wrote this song in X Dorian" and be able to play with him in X using the Dorian intervals and related arpeggio structure.

Tots

11-08-2002, 06:57 AM

Schenkerian analysis

Stupid me! What is it. Never heard of it.

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by J the D
I think I understand now where you are coming from. Are you are saying a mode can not be defined without knowing what the tonic note is? If this is true I agree completely.

The point I have been trying to make is that modal relationships are interval patterns that are transferable to any tonic. Learn the inverval patterns and you can easily determine on the fly what mode you are playing in with the particular key structure being used. The interval relationships never change, only what note they start on. Knowing the interval structures allows me to have someone say, "I wrote this song in X Dorian" and be able to play with him in X using the Dorian intervals and related arpeggio structure.

1. Well, that's not totally it, but if you strip it down to it's essentials that's most of it. In any case, if you don't know the tonic, you can't know the mode.

2. In an improvisational sense, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. As long as one realises the difference between function and grammar.

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by Tots
Schenkerian analysis

Stupid me! What is it. Never heard of it.

Heinrich Schenker developed modern theory, based on the analysis of the functional significance of music and its constituents. (As distinct from a purely grammatical analysis).

In a nutshell, this means that two G chords with identical voice leading may be very different chords. Traditional grammatical analysis will say they are identical; Schenkerian analysis will say they are different because of ... (whatever).

J the D

11-08-2002, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Anomandaris

In a nutshell, this means that two G chords with identical voice leading may be very different chords. Traditional grammatical analysis will say they are identical; Schenkerian analysis will say they are different because of ... (whatever).

A simple example that was given to me:

In the key of G major the G chord is the tonic and has that function; the music will be happy to stay on the G. In the key of C major the G chord has a dominant function and it wants to resolve back to C. In both circumstances the G chords have exactly the same notes serving entirely different functions.

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by J the D
A simple example that was given to me:

In the key of G major the G chord is the tonic and has that function; the music will be happy to stay on the G. In the key of C major the G chord has a dominant function and it wants to resolve back to C. In both circumstances the G chords have exactly the same notes serving entirely different functions.

Yup, this is the obvious case, but more subtly, you can be in C major, and the two G chords can be different.

r0g3r

11-08-2002, 07:22 AM

I'm sorry to all of the detractors, but Auggie Doggie and Anomandaris are quite correct on this. Both of these guys are well versed in their theory, it would serve you well to heed them :)

Tots

11-08-2002, 07:39 AM

I can understand why I see so many newbes on here that don't even attempt theory. As I have said from the start I can agree with most of what has been said here. This is an advanced theory disscussion. Where we differ is in relating to the original poster. This poor guy came hear clueless. Looking for the entry level basics from which he could start to understand modes. I think we often jump on the chance to show of our vast knowlage rather than offer help. I'm quite often wrong but I think if I took this approach with students begining theory it would confuse and frustrate them. Human nature is such that we all learn best in small doses. What has been presented here (IMO) is way too much for a first timer. I hope we didn't confuse the hell out of someone who came here looking for help.

r0g3r

11-08-2002, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Tots
I can understand why I see so many newbes on here that don't even attempt theory. As I have said from the start I can agree with most of what has been said here. This is an advanced theory disscussion. Where we differ is in relating to the original poster. This poor guy came hear clueless. Looking for the entry level basics from which he could start to understand modes. I think we often jump on the chance to show of our vast knowlage rather than offer help. I'm quite often wrong but I think if I took this approach with students begining theory it would confuse and frustrate them. Human nature is such that we all learn best in small doses. What has been presented here (IMO) is way too much for a first timer. I hope we didn't confuse the hell out of someone who came here looking for help.

That's why I started a new thread and gave the whole modal rundown from the top: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=160988

But I think that the knowledgeable people here were just trying to help :)

Tots

11-08-2002, 07:52 AM

That's why I started a new thread and gave the whole modal rundown from the top: http://acapella.harmony-central.com...threadid=160988

I'd be willing to bet there alot more information there then you could digest the first time you asked " hey whats a mode"?

But I think that the knowledgeable people here were just trying to help

I have no dought. I just am not sure you suceed.

r0g3r

11-08-2002, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Tots
That's why I started a new thread and gave the whole modal rundown from the top: http://acapella.harmony-central.com...threadid=160988

I'd be willing to bet there alot more information there then you could digest the first time you asked " hey whats a mode"?

But I think that the knowledgeable people here were just trying to help

I have no dought. I just am not sure you suceed.

Well I did start from the beginning. People are free to take it in small segments if that helps. Also people who already have a basic idea about modes can get something out of it as well. I think I broke it down in about the simplest way possible.

Tots

11-08-2002, 08:11 AM

Well I did start from the beginning. People are free to take it in small segments if that helps. Also people who already have a basic idea about modes can get something out of it as well. I think I broke it down in about the simplest way possible.

I just hope you don't teach.

r0g3r

11-08-2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Tots

I just hope you don't teach.

Gee thanks. I'm glad I put forth all that effort :(

Auggie Doggie

11-08-2002, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Anomandaris

Schenkerian analysis.

Ahhhh.....the good old days......

:D

r0g3r

11-08-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Ahhhh.....the good old days......

:D

Yea, UFO, MSG...... gotta love Schenker! :eek:

:D

Auggie Doggie

11-08-2002, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Tots
I can understand why I see so many newbes on here that don't even attempt theory.

Well, there's another point that this all leads to: guitarists are always stressing to 'learn your scales and modes all over the neck', and the less experienced players see that as a major landmark in their development. The misuse of the word 'modes' in that situation gives the impression that modes are as basic as scales.

Also, truly learning scales is a lot more than learning the fingering patterns on the neck; it involves learning the harmonies built out of those scales...it involves understanding keys....and it involves the integration of those things into a uniform whole. So we're again back to my point in stressing the importance of learning the major/minor system thoroughly before even worrying about modes. On the surface, modes seem to be a basic concept, but when you're dealing with players new to theory, modes are anything BUT basic. It's better if they simply defer the learning of modes until they are fully prepared to handle it.

This is an advanced theory disscussion.

Yes, which is why 'newbs' would be better off avoiding the topic until they have established a frame of reference (ie the major/minor sytem).

Where we differ is in relating to the original poster. This poor guy came hear clueless.

Indeed he did.

Looking for the entry level basics from which he could start to understand modes.

Modes are not on the 'entry level'; I've been hounding that point constantly. A while back, a gentleman here wanted to learn how to compose fugues. I went through an ordered list of areas that should be mastered before moving into the fugue. He was elated with the information and I assume he's gotten to work on that in preparation for the fugue.

It seems to me that you would suggest that he try to write a simple fugue off the bat, without the necessary background experience. That's a tried-and-true method of developing bad habits that are difficult to overcome. If he learns the proper prerequisite material first, he should be able to get a much better grasp of the more difficult stuff when he gets to it. In my eyes, there is no 'entry-level fugue' just as there is no 'entry-level mode'.

I think we often jump on the chance to show of our vast knowlage rather than offer help. I'm quite often wrong but I think if I took this approach with students begining theory it would confuse and frustrate them.

I think every teacher of every subject makes the same mistake at first. In math, you don't teach Calculus to someone struggling with Algebra II. In history, you don't teach Vietnam to people who don't understand the results of WWII. The same applies here; I don't think it's wise to try to teach modes to people who haven't mastered (at the very least) the major scale and its applications. Since the modes derive from the major scale, it makes sens that the major scale must be mastered first.

Human nature is such that we all learn best in small doses. What has been presented here (IMO) is way too much for a first timer. I hope we didn't confuse the hell out of someone who came here looking for help.

As someone who has studied education and learning processes in general, I can say that people learn best when new information is presented that relates to (and can be understood in light of) foundational material. Without that foundation, they will learn those 'small doses' in a veritable vacuum, disjointed and almost random in nature. When that happens, their mental 'filing cabinet' is in complete disarray.

This entire thread went a LONG way to demonstrate all of the points I've been trying to make. A beginner would be completely confused and overwhelmed by this material, and that's as it should be. That should not be taken as some form of insult, nor should it be seen as the 'sage on the stage' becoming the 'keeper of the knowledge'. It's just a matter of making an informed decision on what falls under the "basic theory" umbrella. While 'modes as fingering patterns' is indeed a very simple concept, which contributes to the notion that they are somehow 'basic', that approach has proven time and time again to lead to further confusion and a completely insufficient (if not flat out incorrect) understanding of the subject.

Auggie Doggie

11-08-2002, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by r0g3r

Yea, UFO, MSG...... gotta love Schenker! :eek:

:D

:D :) :p :cool:

WattsUrizen

11-08-2002, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie
...That's a tried-and-true method of developing bad habits that are difficult to overcome...

Absolutely. I push my students quite hard. I'm teaching kids who are 10 years old, but I am teaching them from Czerny. It's always beneficial to promote technical excellence from an early age, otherwise it just becomes very difficult to remove bad habits.

Visual_Tutor

04-04-2009, 09:38 PM

Jasco

04-04-2009, 11:18 PM

OK all... look playing the guitar is MUCH easier then all that.
The Chromatic Scale (every playable note on the guitar) consists of only 7 notes that can be either natural, sharp, flat, double-sharp, and double-flat for a total of twelve semi-tones and multiple note names. The notes in the Chromatic Scale are A – B – C – D – E – F – G, after G they begin again at A and continue on. Each time you play through any scale and reach the starting note it is said that you have covered one Octave. So playing the notes A – B – C – D – E – F – G – A is playing one Octave. It's the step patterns that we extract that makes up what we play. As far as Modes ~ Playing a Blues Progression ((I - IV - V7) the First, Fourth and Fifth w/7th note) say in the Key of C will give you a (I) C Major, (IV) F Major and (V7) G Major 7th chords. While this may be boring, you can highlight the progression by using Modes, use this as a guide;
C Ionian mode (the Major Scale) – is happy sounding
D Dorian mode – is sad sounding
E Phrygian mode – is mysterious sounding. Used a lot in flamenco guitar.
F Lydian mode – is happy sounding
G Mixolydian mode – is happy sounding
A Aeolian mode (the Minor Scale) – is sad sounding
B Locrian Mode – used to create tension
All of these Modes are all in the Key of C Major, but when using these notes to build chord progression in different Keys, say the G Major Scale using chords built on the G Mixolydian... You Will Get an entirely different feel and emotion from your music!

:facepalm:

You resurrect a six year old thread for that?

The V chord in diatonic harmony is dominant 7, not major 7.

If you listen to much actual blues, you'll find it almost always uses dominant chords for the I, IV, and V. It doesn't follow the standard major scale diatonic harmonization rules.

It's rather misleading to say the chromatic scale has 7 notes, when it in fact has 12 notes. The fact that only 7 letter names are used for naming notes doesn't mean the chromatic scale has 7 notes.

The chromatic scale is not A B C D E F G.
It is A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab.
You could also write other enharmonic equivalents using sharps (#) instead of flats (b). And you could start it from any note, not just A.

Please get your information correct, especially if you're trying to sound authoritative. Beginning players that may be reading this forum have a tough time sorting out theory and mode information even when it's accurate. No need to confuse them more with inaccuracy.

By the way, what's your favorite mode to solo over a susb9 chord? :lol: