song structure, key

[pepito]

I plunked out a bass line off a record I was listening to last night. It was simple, so I decided I would apply my amuzing powers of music theory analysis. I started off assuming the song was in C cuz the first chord was C (major) and then it went to a (minor). There was also an Fmaj chord.
But then I started to get confused by a Bbmaj chord. The song structure was like this
Cmaj for 3 bars (///)
amin /
Cmaj /
Fmaj //
Cmaj /
Bbmaj for half a bar and Fmaj for half (Bb/F)
Cmaj/
Bb/F
Cmaj/
The progression is twelve bars long. When I think of 12 bars I think blues- starting on the I to the IV to the I to the IV to the V to the I with maybe a turnaround on the V. If you're gonna have one minor chord it's likely to be the vi (a minor in the key of C), but probably not the iii.
But now I think the song is in F, notwithstanding that it starts on C (the V) and includes a minor (the iii).
What do you all think?

[Jazz Ad]

The song is in the key of F.
Perfect use of the myxolydian (5th degree) mode.
Very common in blues.

The guy probably didn't think of it in those terms.
He actually used the minor 7th of the C (Bb) as a passing note instead of the B for easier resolution to the F.

major 7ths hardly resolve to anything. If he had used the B, he would have had a tritone (diminued 5th) between the B and the F coming next. This interval is difficult to make sound right, especially in a major key.

Using the myxolydian mode is an elegant way of solving this problem.


Anybody correct me if I'm wrong. That's how I see it.

[Rowka]

If you were to write it out, you would probably give it a key sig. for F (one flat) but if you were to jam along with it, it would be easiest to think in C mixolydian (shares the same key sig as F).

[pepito]

This is a very subtle point, the C mixolydian. Really beyond my depth. Can someone expand on the difference between thinking C mixolydian and F major?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by pepito
This is a very subtle point, the C mixolydian. Really beyond my depth. Can someone expand on the difference between thinking C mixolydian and F major? They're the same key, but not started on the same note, leading to a different scale.
Here comes the mode theory.

Take your F scale.
F
G
A
Bb
C
D
E


Each note corresponds to a degree. Number them.
F - I
G - II
A - III
Bb - IV
C - V
D - VI
E - VII


To each degree corresponds a mode with a name.
I - Ionian
II - Dorian
III - Phrygian
IV - Lydian
V - Mixolydian
VI - Aeolian
VII - Locrian


Those modes are always associated with the same degree, whatever the key. Each mode brings a different scale with different intervals sounding different.
I - Ionian - 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2
II - Dorian - 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1
III - Phrygian - 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1 1
IV - Lydian - 1 1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2
V - Mixolydian - 1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1
VI - Aeolian - 1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1
VII - Locrian - 1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1 1

Each mode brings different colors and feelings :
Ionian - Regular major mode. Majestuous, festive, very strong. You know how to use it.

Dorian - Minor mode, very sad, nostalgic, romantic. Perfect for lullabies and love songs.

Phrygian - Typical flamenco mode. Minor yet very dancing.

Lydian - Very harsh major mode, mainly due to the augmented 4th and major 7th. Sounds great for metal songs. A lot of war anthems and military songs are written in this mode.

Mixolydian - Major mode, not as happy or powerful as the ionian, mainly due to the minor 7th. Wonderful for blues soloes.

Aeolian - Regular minor mode. Incredibly versatile, so many things to do with it.

Locrian - Odd sounding minor mode. Nice if you want to corrupt a tender song with a strange melody. Definitely the one I preffer for my solos.


In your case (key of F), it makes :
I - Ionian - F G A Bb C D E
II - Dorian - G A Bb C D E F
III - Phrygian - A Bb C D E F G
IV - Lydian - Bb C D E F G A
V - Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb
VI - Aeolian - D E F G A Bb C
VII - Locrian - E F G A Bb C D


Whoof. One had to do it I guess.

[pepito]

Excellent, Jazz Ad. But why? Is the mixolydian scale suggested because the song starts on C, but is in the key of F? Or is there more to it? The progression goes C, a, C, F, C, Bb, F, C. The bass line ascends each chord in turn (C, E, G, C; A, C, E,A; F,A,C,F; etc.).
The first bar of the bass line, for example, C,E,G,C, takes notes from the C chord only. Those notes are also found in the C major scale, the a minor scale, the F major scale, and, as Jazz Ad has just explained, the C mixolydian. And that's just the first chord. It doesn't adress the overall tonality of the song. I'm thinking out loud here. Is the difference really because the true tonal center of the song is C, rather than F?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by pepito
....Is the difference really because the true tonal center of the song is C, rather than F? Yes. The whole song revolves around the C. ie, the song starts and ends on a C.
From the chosen chords, you could tell the song in the key of F.
Yet, the most common chord is the C.
C is the degree V of the F scale.
Degree V = mixolydian mode.

[Rowka]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Yes. The whole song revolves around the C. ie, the song starts and ends on a C.
From the chosen chords, you could tell the song in the key of F.
Yet, the most common chord is the C.
C is the degree V of the F scale.
Degree V = mixolydian mode.


Excellent, Frenchie.

+1

[ivanthetrble]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
They're the same key, but not started on the same note, leading to a different scale.
Here comes the mode theory.

Take your F scale.
F
G
A
Bb
C
D
E


Each note corresponds to a degree. Number them.
F - I
G - II
A - III
Bb - IV
C - V
D - VI
E - VII


To each degree corresponds a mode with a name.
I - Ionian
II - Dorian
III - Phrygian
IV - Lydian
V - Mixolydian
VI - Aeolian
VII - Locrian


Those modes are always associated with the same degree, whatever the key. Each mode brings a different scale with different intervals sounding different.
I - Ionian - 1 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2
II - Dorian -1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1 1
III - Phrygian -1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1 1
IV - Lydian -1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2 1
V - Mixolydian -1 1 1 1/2 1 1 1/2
VI - Aeolian -1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1 1
VII - Locrian -1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1

Each mode brings different colors and feelings :
Ionian - Regular major mode. Majestuous, festive, very strong. You know how to use it.

Dorian - Minor mode, very sad, nostalgic, romantic. Perfect for lullabies and love songs.

Phrygian - Typical flamenco mode. Minor yet very dancing.

Lydian - Very harsh major mode, mainly due to the augmented 4th and major 7th. Sounds great for metal songs. A lot of war anthems and military songs are written in this mode.

Mixolydian - Major mode, not as happy or powerful as the ionian, mainly due to the minor 7th. Wonderful for blues soloes.

Aeolian - Regular minor mode. Incredibly versatile, so many things to do with it.

Locrian - Odd sounding minor mode. Nice if you want to corrupt a tender song with a strange melody. Definitely the one I preffer for my solos.


In your case (key of F), it makes :
I - Ionian - F G A Bb C D E
II - Dorian -E F G A Bb C D
III - Phrygian -D E F G A Bb C
IV - Lydian -C D E F G A Bb
V - Mixolydian -Bb C D E F G A
VI - Aeolian -A Bb C D E F G
VII - Locrian -G A Bb C D E F

Whoof. One had to do it I guess.

http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies/bowdown.gif
ITT

[Basslord1124]

Looks like it's in F to me. I know a song we do in church that is in Eb but it starts on Bb (the 5th)...looks to me like that is the case here. In fact that whole backwards thing with the chord progression (V IV I...or in that case C Bb F) is quite common in modern pop/rock music. Some examples of that include Sweet Home Alabama and Wanted Dead or Alive (Bon Jovi).

[Jazz Ad]

Originally posted by ivanthetrble
http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies/bowdown.gif
ITT I guess it means that I made sense ?

[ivanthetrble]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
I guess it means that I made sense ?

Yep! :D

[Jazz Ad]

It still amazes me though.

All our occidental music theory was made up by Bach 250 years ago, and it didn't require any serious mod since then.

[Basslord1124]

Basically a mode is using the same notes of a certain scale but starting and ending on a different note. There are different names (which Jazz Ad showed) for each mode of a scale. For example, out of the key of F, Ionian starts on F and ends on F,
Dorian starts on E and ends on E, etc. It's like making a scale out of each scale degree in the F major scale...but you must use those notes in the F major scale (meaning the only accidental in this case is a Bb).

[Basslord1124]

Ya know, I was wondering that myself but proceeded to assume Jazz was right since he seemed more knowledgable on the subject. I know how modes are formed but if you told me to play Db Phrygian on the spot I'd probably have to spend about 5-10 minutes to figure out where the hell it is.

[MisfitPixie]

[has learn-did!!!!!]

I like this thread.

[mrcrow]

Originally posted by Basslord1124
Ya know, I was wondering that myself but proceeded to assume Jazz was right since he seemed more knowledgable on the subject. I know how modes are formed but if you told me to play Db Phrygian on the spot I'd probably have to spend about 5-10 minutes to figure out where the hell it is.

apart from pure intellect is there a way to remember these names
i practice them and set up on a song in the 'right' position to get the roots to fall easily in one section of the fretboard, and i am beginning to understand some of the theory.
i also have noticed some songs when the singer is singing a C the bass note is D
and also tunes starting in Am resolve and finish on a C
its interesting
and i have just had a look at some gershwin scores and he just doesnt seem to care:D nice work if you can get it.:cool:

[pepito]

Now that I have memorized all the modal scales in every key and each position ;), can we discuss practical uses? How is my new understanding of modes going to help my bass playing?

[Oldtimer]

Originally posted by pepito
Now that I have memorized all the modal scales in every key and each position ;), can we discuss practical uses? How is my new understanding of modes going to help my bass playing?

One way is by playing every other note of a mode scale. In doing this, you are playing an arpeggio of the chord that this mode denotes. i.e Dorian G Bb D F= Gmin7.

[pepito]

So every modal scale has it's own special chord?

[Oldtimer]

Originally posted by pepito
So every modal scale has it's own special chord?

Yes, if for instance, you play every other note of the Dorian in F (Starts in G), you get Gmin7.

F modes and their related chords=
IMaj7=F Maj7
IImin7=G min7
IIImin7=A min7
IVMaj7=Bb Maj7
V7 = C7 (dominant 7th) or C Maj b7
VImin7=D min7
VIImin7b5= E min7b5
VIII= Octave F Maj7

[acebass]

Here are some practical examples of different modes.
Mixolydian - Warning by GreenDay.
Dorian - Rappers Delight.
Aeolian - the chorus of Crazy Train by Ozzie
Lydian - 2nd bass lick of Longview by Greenday (not the whole scale)

If you know these songs, it'll be a little easier to learn the scales and associate the sound. I'm sure you guys can find some more.


Good Luck,

Rob

[pepito]

Back to G mixolydian, then. (G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G) This scale takes it's notes from the C major/a minor scale, but it's tonal center is actually G. It's "special" (tonic) chord is G major or G7.
My next question is: how does the ear relate the modal scale to the tonic chord of that scale?
In the song we've been dealing with, the bass line sticks to root, third, fifth, octave of the several chords. What's the consequence of taking say, the seventh note from the G mixolydian, rather than the G major or G "blues" scale?

[MrJoshua]

Modal names - for some reason I have the worst time remembering these. I wish we could just use numbers. I can remember E - Second Mode a lot easier than E Dorian, just because immediately you know which step you're on. But everybody looks at me weird if I use numbers instead of the name. :(

:) Either way, they're fun to play with.

[Jazz Ad]

You can use degree numbers, at least in french.
People reffer to them as mode I, mode VI, etc.

[mrcrow]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
You can use degree numbers, at least in french.
People reffer to them as mode I, mode VI, etc.

[mrcrow]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
You can use degree numbers, at least in french.
People reffer to them as mode I, mode VI, etc.
thank you Jazz Ad
i have been walking around tonight at the shops trying to get my head round a basic pair
and i was memorising the I=V..which is mixylodian?
i am tending to remember fret pattern shapes as i do when i practice

root mode
*-**
**-*
-*-*

and the V mode is [*** i had to edit this***]
**-*
**-*
-*-*

and the VII mode is (a diminished chord?)
*-*
**-*
**-*

i tend to start a scale somewhere on its path and continue up till i reach the end, remembering the flats and sharps pertaining to the major scale signature

its takeing me a long time to really get these in my head but i have learnt some song bass lines by starting at a convenient poing to make all the necessary chord roots accessible from that position.

when i played sax we had to learn all the diminished sevenths of every key signature... all 12 of them..they all resolved to just 3 with different starting points.:D

[Johnny BoomBoom]

I got about halfway through this thread and then my left eye turned in and stayed there, I had this hot fuzzy feeling in my head and realised I had overloaded!

Reason being I am really poor on music theory!!! This thread has been great for getting a tab user into understanding some of the stuff I should know already! Thanx to all!:)

[Jazz Ad]

Actually, I think this thread is ready for the FAQ forum.

[Basslord1124]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Actually, I think this thread is ready for the FAQ forum.

+1

[pepito]

I didn't think this thing would come up again, but it's a happy coincidence that it did. I was just reading a little something on the history of Jazz. It mentioned a sub genre called "Modal Jazz." Although it didn't go into much detail about what Modal Jazz is/was, it did seem to suggest that Modal Jazz is more of a technique than a style, and associated it with Miles Davis and a bass player named Ron Carter.
Who can tell me more about "Modal Jazz?" How does it fit into our discussion of modes in this thread?
Who is Ron Carter? How did he use modes in constructing his bass lines?
I would love to see a real world example of how a bassist used a mode in a piece of jazz music to construct an interesting line.