MACKIE ONYX SATELLITE (audio interface)

[Anderton]

ONYX SATELLITE: PROLOGUE

One thing about Pro Reviews is once a company tries one, they want to do it again. That’s a good sign, and this one is particularly interesting because Mackie holds the record for the most number of posts ever in the Pro Review for their Onyx 400F (which still, almost a year after its start, is still getting posts).

There were a few reasons why this so: First of all, it's a good piece of gear that potentially fit a lot of users needs, so they wanted to find out more about it. Second, there were a lot of interesting "sidebars" about audio quality, conversion, phase linearity, and the like. Third, although the majority of users reported no problems, a small group experienced weird FireWire "whines" and some other issues that stubbornly resisted solutions. Oddly, this seemed to be pretty much a Mac-only phenomenon, and only certain Mac models at that.

So when I had the chance to review the PreSonus Inspire 1394 FireWire interface, I (of course!) had to try it with the Mac, which I didn't have the option to do with the 400F. Sure enough, the Inspire worked fine with Windows, but had a “whine” and some noise with my dual G5. PreSonus sent me a new model, just in case it was a manufacturing problem; that didn’t solve it. Fortunately, they were very cool about having this particular "dirty laundry" aired in public, as they wanted to get to the bottom of things too.

To make a long story short, what made it so difficult to solve the problem was that there were actually two problems. Sound on Sound’s Paul "extremely cool guy editor" White found the solution to one: Disable processor cycling. That didn’t solve my problem, though. It turned out that what I experienced was graphics-related, because when I minimized the applet, all problems disappeared as if by magic.

My point? The number of permutations and combinations of computers, processors, operating systems, graphics cards, and so on is staggering, so it's not surprising some problems crop up now and again. But in the case of the Inspire 1394, persistence paid off -- and in almost all cases, it is possible to find a solution eventually.

So now we have a new Mackie FireWire audio interface product, and of course, the foremost question in my mind is "Will it work with my Mac?" – so that’s what I’ll be trying first. If it does, great! If it doesn’t, we’ll get to the bottom of it, just as we did with the Inspire 1394. I’ll also try it with Windows, although if my experience with the 400F is any indication, it should work perfectly and consistently.

[Anderton]

The Onxy Satellite takes an approach I haven’t seen before with an interface: It’s both a mobile recording solution and a “base station” for your desktop. Say what? Yup. The way it does this is by separating the interface into two components, a portable “satellite” device and a “dock” base. Put them together, and you have your desktop interface. Separate them, and you can take the satellite with you for mobile applications.

Click on the attachment to see what’s in the package. The dock is in the upper right, and the satellite just below it. Other elements are:

* An AC adapter for the system (although the Onyx Satellite is bus-powered, the adapter is required if you’re using the interface with a 4-pin FireWire connector, which unlike a 6-pin FireWire connector, doesn’t supply power)
* 6-pin to 6-pin FireWire cable
* 6-pin to 4-pin adapter so you can use the supplied cable with a 4-pin connection (as found on most Windows laptops).
* CD-ROM with software drivers for Windows
* The ubiquitous Mackie “extra value freebie,” Tracktion 2. (And yes, you do want to install it; even if you decide to stick with your host software, check out Tracktion 2 as it’s a pretty cool piece of code.)
* Owner’s manual
* Product registration card (you can also register online). You don’t have to register to take advantage of the one-year warranty, but it’s probably a good idea to have a record of your purchase on file with Mackie.

The Onyx Satellite system is cross-platform. It requires Windows XP SP2 or Mac OS X 10.3.9, 256MB of RAM, your basic Windows processor (P4, Celeron, Athlon XP), and for the Mac, a G4 or better. I don’t have an Intel-based Mac for testing, but from what I can tell, the Onyx Satellite is PPC only at present. Hopefully someone from Mackie is monitoring this and can indicate what the deal is for those using Intel-based Macs.

For specs and info, click here (http://www.mackie.com/products/satellite/splash.html) to check out Mackie's "landing page" for the Onyx Satellite.

[Anderton]

The Onyx Satellite is a 2 in x 6 out interface, regardless of whether you’re using the dock/satellite combination or just the satellite. (Note that while the satellite can function by itself, the dock requires the satellite in order to work -- the dock is just about additional I/O connectors and switching.) Let’s take a look at the dock in detail; click on the attachment to see the dock rear panel.

Starting from the right, you’ll see Input 1’s connections:

* XLR connector feeding the Onyx preamp
* Line 1 balanced TRS phone input
* Line 2 balanced TRS phone input
* Unbalanced hi-Z instrument input
* Insert jack with unbalanced in and unbalanced out on stereo phone connector

You choose which connector is active based on front panel buttons, which we’ll get into soon. Input 2 has the same complement of connectors.

Before going any further, it’s worth pointing out this “built-in patch bay” is one of the Satellite’s selling points: While at home, you can have a couple of mics plugged in and ready to go, along with a couple of keyboards, a drum machine, guitar, bass, and one other line-level device. Furthermore, you can have a compressor or two plugged into the inserts if that’s your thing. When you need to go mobile, you take out the satellite, but you can leave everything else plugged in so it’s ready to go when you return.

Okay, on to the outs. Left of the ins, there’s a group of four balanced/unbalanced line level jacks labeled 3, 4, 5, and 6. These correspond to your host’s similarly numbered ASIO or Core Audio outputs. As one example of how to use these, while you’re mixing down with the dock and don’t need the inputs for tracking instruments any more, these outs can come from aux buses feeding effects like reverb, vocoder, etc., with the effect outputs going into the line inputs.

The final group of outs is fed by an identical pair of stereo signals, which would typically be your main stereo outs. A front panel switch, which we’ll cover later when we talk about the control room section, chooses which of these jack pairs will receive the stereo output. With the satellite inserted, this same main stereo signal feeds the dual headphone outs.

Toward the extreme left side, you'll see the FireWire connector, the jack for the AC adapter, and a security slot that's compatible with Kensington security locks if you want to secure the dock to your work area.

[Anderton]

At this point, I figured I knew enough about what was happening to plug it in and give it a spin. So, time to boot up the Mac and get started.

I decided that to simulate the worst-case possible conditions to promote whine, I’d bus power the box rather than use the AC adapter. Mackie makes no mention about whether it’s okay to hot plug or not, but the dock has an on-off switch, so I figured I’d play it safe and hook things up with the switch off, and then power up.

By the way, the dock has a substantial feel and is reasonably heavy; it’s not going to slide around much on your workspace (if at all). Both the satellite and dock are solidly-built, with all-metal construction. They don’t feel flimsy at all.

Okay, plug in, turn on…the power light illuminated, and so did the FireWire activity light. So far so good. However, I heard a faint but annoying high-frequency sound coming from the Mac. I was disappointed but not surprised, because it seems plugging anything FireWire-related into this particular Mac causes the same problem. Damn.

I tried plugging into the FireWire port on the back of the computer as well as the front panel one; no difference. But when I plugged into the FireWire port on my Windows desktop machine, there was no high frequency sound at all. Clearly, this was something Mac-related. Questions immediately arose: Do Intel-based Macs have the same issue? Is it just my G5? Does it relate to bus power?

So I took the Onxy Satellite over to an older silver G4 (running system 10.4.6) and plugged in. There was no whine whatsoever.

Going back to the dual G5, I thought I’d try the AC adapter. But try as I could, there was no way I could get the plug to fit into the jack! I tried angling it, prodding it, even forcing it; it just refused to insert into the power jack, either on the dock or the satellite. I was afraid that if I forced it any more, I’d break the jack and I didn’t want to do that. (Note to Mackie: Check that your suppliers are actually providing the AC adapter you specified. I just may cut off the tip and solder in one that's the right size...)

I tried different video settings; same whine. Finally in furstration I opened up the AudioMIDISetup window just in case there was a "Check this box to remove annoying whine" option, then noticed something even stranger: the whine got louder whenever I resized the window. Help!!

At this point I remembered Paul White’s comments about processor cycling with respect to the Inspire 1394. Per his recommendation I had downloaded the CHUD utility from the Apple web site, which adds a processor option to the System Preferences menu under "Hardware." I opened it up, unchecked "Allow Nap," and…and…and…

The whine disappeared. Totally. 100% non-existent.

Click on the attachment to see the magic processor settings that solved all my whine problems – and not just with the Onyx Satellite, but with some other devices as well.

Now, I don’t want to get into a Mac vs. PC thing, but clearly, in this instance the Mac isn’t anywhere near as fool-proof as it’s advertised to be: You have to know about the CHUD utility in Apple’s developer tools, and download it from the Apple site, and then know enough to uncheck “Allow Nap.”

Bottom line: In this whine situation, the Onyx Satellite was blameless; it was definitely a Mac thing. But fortunately, there’s an easy fix for the Mac.

As Bill and Ted would say, killing the whine was most triumphant -- so on with the review.

[Anderton]

After savoring the victory over whine, it was time to get down to serious business so I figured I’d better set up the audio. Click on the attachment to see the Audio MIDI Setup window.

As you can see, there isn’t a whole lot to adjust; latency is dealt with from within in the application, although you can set the sample rate to 44.1, 48, 88.2, and 96kHz. The bit resolution setting is fictional, because it’s always at 24 bits.

Also note that all of the volume controls and mute settings are grayed out, because you adjust these either manually at the Onyx Satellite, or within your software host. But also note the “6ch – 24bit” setting for the output. Yup, it really does do six channels, and as we’ll find out during the course of this review, it even has a cute feature if you’re working with surround.

[Anderton]

Dock input switching is handled on the dock’s top panel, which has eight switches (one for each connector for the two inputs). Click on the attachment to see the input switching section.

To my surprise, these aren’t radio buttons – you can enable multiple input connectors at once and mix them together. That’s the good news; the bad news is that this is of limited usefulness, because there are no provisions to balance out the levels, and the inputs can interact.

For example, I plugged in a mic, turned up the gain, and it sounded great. But when I tried to enable an instrument input so I could play guitar along with the vocals, it basically killed the mic level. Another oddity is that at first, I couldn’t seem to get the instrument input working properly. It turns out that you need to press the instrument input button in on both the satellite and the dock for this to work. No big deal, but it’s worth noting.

However, the “additive input” feature can be very useful is if you have a situation involving something like two layered keyboards. You can plug them both into the line ins for one input, adjust levels on the keyboard themselves, and go ahead and record them.

[Anderton]

It’s been a while since I returned the Onyx 400F, and had kind of forgotten just how good the Onyx mic pres sound – especially in light of the price ($519.99 list for the Satellite system, with street price hovering around $400). These are clean, wonderful sounding suckers, whether with mic signals, instruments, or line levels. There is a definite transparency (yeah, it’s an overused word; but if the shoe fits, wear it), and their “character” is more like a lack of character, other than just shuttling the electrons as efficiently and gently as possible from your signal source to the Mackie. Very good stuff.

Note that there is a phantom power switch that delivers +48V, but this is a global switch that applies power to both mic inputs. There's no way to apply phantom power to one mic input but not the other.

[Anderton]

Let’s zoom out and look at the dock’s top panel. You can see the input switching toward the left that we covered two posts ago, and the talkback and control room sections toward the right. At the very right is the on-off switch. Click on the attachment to see a photo of the top panel. The big hole in the middle is, as you'd expect, where the satellite "pod" inserts. It reminds me of those old modems where you stuck a telephone handset into a rubber-lined cavity.

Next, let’s look at the talkback and control room sections in detail.

[Anderton]

This is cool and unexpected. Click on the attachment to see the talkbox section in detail. Those three little holes above the talkback level knob have a mic below it, and the mic feeds into a built-in compressor so you don’t have to speak into the box to get your point across. The “To Phones” and “To DAW” buttons are momentary, as talkback buttons should be. “To DAW” lets you slate at the beginning of a track (or whenever you want to add some kind of comment), but one thing that’s not mentioned in the manual is that your talkback also appears in the phones when you press on the “To DAW” button. So, you don’t need to press both buttons at once if you want your talkback to appear over the phones and in your DAW.

You do want to be careful not to see the levels too high if there’s leakage in your phones and you’re close to the Satellite, as the compressor is quite effective and you could end up with feedback.

[Anderton]

The Control Room section is pretty standard, but with a major exception. Click on the attachment to see a closeup of the Control Room section. First off, there’s a button to choose whether you’re going to be monitoring the input signals, or the signal coming back from the DAW. This provides a “zero monitoring” option if latency is a problem, or if you’re doing something like recording guitar through plug-ins, you can monitor through the DAW while recording.

As mentioned earlier, there are two control room outputs (A and B), and a switch determines whether the output signal is going to one or the other. An obvious application is to choose between sending a signal to a speaker system or headphone amp, but those who like to A-B between two sets of speakers (e.g., the “main” speakers and a set of “real world” speakers) can use this to do quick reality checks between the two sets. Another application is to simply not use one set of outs so when the phone rings, you can hit the switch to mute the speakers instantly.

The 1-2 / 1-6 is something altogether different. In the 1-2 position, the Control Room level affects the A and B outputs on the back, and the remaining outputs (3-6) have a fixed level. In the 1-6 position, the Control Room acts as a master volume control for all six outputs. If the light bulb is going on over your head and you’re thinking “surround mixing,” yes, that’s what it’s all about.

Of course, to do this you would need to set up the busing in your host program to accommodate surround. But with today’s hosts, that’s not really an issue as most of them are designed to do surround busing. You’d also need to set up a suitable surround system to be fed from the Onyx Satellite, but Mackie give a suggested hookup diagram in the manual.

Granted, surround never did set the world on fire. But it hasn’t gone away, either, and I’m always surprised at just how many people I run into who are working on surround project of one kind or another. Even if you don’t end up doing surround projects, at least you know you have the capability to not only do the busing and routing, but also can turn all channels up and down together.

[Anderton]

And that's pretty much it for the dock, so it's time to move on to the satellite section (or as Mackie likes to call it, the "pod"). But as I've put about four hours into this today, the satellite section is going to have to wait until tomorrow or the next day...I want to do some more on the X2 Pro Review later anyway.

Giving a little break will also give y'all a chance to ask questions you might have, and perhaps for someone from Mackie to fill us in on the situation with Intel-based Macs.

But before signing off for now, I should probably mention that I've tested the interface with Digital Performer 5.01 and Cubase LE on the Mac. Both programs had no problem recognizing and using the interface, and as I was recording primarily vocal parts, I got to hear the mic pres in action. I was very happy with both the ease of use and sound quality. Initially, I switched between monitoring the inputs on recording and the DAW outs on playback, but then eventually threw caution to the winds and set the buffer to 64 samples -- no problem, although admittedly, I didn't have the time to load up the DP project with a zillion virtual instruments and other hogs.

So far, it's thumbs up for the Onyx Satellite, aside from the puzzling AC adapter plug mismatch issue. It has been very stable -- no crashes, ticks, pop, audio problems, or any of that. I was really concerned about the "dreaded FireWire whine" problem when it first appeared, but it was very gratifying to be able to get rid of it. So far, I'm quite impressed. Let's see how the rest of the review unfolds.

[James Woodburn]

Hi Craig - this is Woody from over at Mackie HQ. I am the guy behind the design of the Satellite system and I will be available during this review process to offer comments, advice and respond to any questions that the readers may have.

I would like to take this opportunity to address your concerns regarding the Intel Mac compatibility - the system uses the Mac class compliant driver built into OSX and therefore is fully compatible with the latest Intel based Macs and we include the new machines in our testing.

I will also be sending you the correct power supply - the only explanation that I can find that would give you the wrong supply is due to the fact that the unit we sent you was one my team have been using in the office and they must have placed the wrong supply back in the box when it was sent to you - we have lots of samples of different supplies here in product development. Obviously I will find the person responsible and make sure they are shot at dawn for such a grave error....... ;-)

I am looking forward to the remainder of the review and I truly appreciate the feedback that you and the readers provide.

All the best,

Woody.

[Anderton]

<< I will also be sending you the correct power supply - the only explanation that I can find that would give you the wrong supply is due to the fact that the unit we sent you was one my team have been using in the office and they must have placed the wrong supply back in the box when it was sent to you - we have lots of samples of different supplies here in product development.>>

Thanks for checking in! At least now I have a new iPod power supply (just kidding).

Hey, what do you think of the "processor nap" thing? is this something you've experimented with at Mackie?

[James Woodburn]

To be honest, no.... Dan Steinberg has been able to reproduce the whine only on his Mac laptop and it has been bugging him for ages! He was going to try the fix last night to see if it cures his laptop and let us know.

We will be posting the same information through our forums - big thanks to Paul White for the cool tip. I will get in touch with him to get more detail on the causes of the problem so we can understand it better.

[Anderton]

One caution is that when you uncheck "Allow Nap," it doesn't appear to "stick" -- you need to uncheck it every time you fire up your Mac.

I'll email Paul and see if he has time to contribute his thoughts in this thread.

[Anderton]

Well it turns out that the AC adapter sent with the original Satellite I received was the wrong one. The unit was not a stock unit, but an interface they'd been using at Mackie.

Today UPS showed up with an actual from stock Satellite to replace the one they sent, and its AC adapter works fine :) However, there are two differences compared to the one in the photo:

* It's a wall wart type, not a "line lump"
* There's no filter on the hot line
* It's somewhat smaller

So no worries about the AC adapter if you get a unit off the shelf.

[MikeRivers]

A Satellite just appeared here today. I was imprssed with the heft. It really feels nice.

I don't have a lot of patience with these things so I did the lazy thing - I had the CEntrance universal driver installed on the computer that I use with an Onyx mixer, so rather than loading up the official Mackie driver, I added it to the CEntrance driver and it took off and played.

It's a bit inconsistent working together with the Onyx mixer, though CEntrance has experienced problems getting that mixer to play nicely with others (though not sure if they mean another Onyx mixer or another device - I asked 'em).

I was pleased to find that once I beat it into submission (which involved a couple of reboots) I was able to track a multitrack project through the mixer and play back tracks through the Satellite. Since it has six outputs, this gave me the ability to run six channels out the Satellite and back into the mixer's analog inputs so I could mix using the channel EQ and faders. Just like a real studio. ;)

I was really bummed, though. Mine doesn't whine. I was hoping to hear what a few folks on the Mackie forum were complaining about. Well, it does, a little, when docked, and with the headphone volume turned all the way up. It's lower than -90 dBu coming out of the headphone jack - that's the limit to my analyzer. And if it's recorded, it's well below -90 dBFS, which is about the quiescent noise level with the mic gain all the way up and a 150 ohm resistor between pins 2-3. (a very insensitve mic) No whine when switching on phantom power as some have reported.

With the Satellite free of the dock (but powered with the AC power supply) there's no trace of whine. I wish they used a silent talkback switch, though. The "clank" when switching it on is pretty scary. I suspect that like the Big Knob, there's a pretty heavy compressor on the talkback mic. (oh, yeah, he says after reading the manua - it say so in the manual) The level stays about the same over a pretty good range of distance, but if you get too far back, it sounds . . well, like yo're too far back form the mic.

I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a way to mix the input with the playback from the DAW - sort of like having the INPUT/DAW monitor source switch both up and down at the same time. Or better yet, a pot that allows you to balance the intput source and playback level in the headphones. I haven't given too much thought to why they might not have done this, but it would have been a nice addition.

Oh, and the 48V (it must be - it says so right on the button) phantom power is only about 37.5V. That will power most microphones OK, some microphones OK but without their full headroom, and a few microphones poorly.

I may drop some tidbits in here now and then, but every time I mess with something "computer" it takes so much time, I have to restrain myself.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
at first, I couldn’t seem to get the instrument input working properly. It turns out that you need to press the instrument input button in on both the satellite and the dock for this to work. No big deal, but it’s worth noting.And in fact, this IS noted in the manual.

RTFM!!!

There are a number of things about this device that we're just not used to seeing.

[MikeRivers]

I suppose I should say, if you haven't figured it out yet, that I'm running this on a Windows PC, and with the external power supply. This isn't the same computer I hooked it to yesterday, using the CEntrance driver, I installed the official Onyx Satellite driver.

I'm using a PCMCIA Firewire adapter (even my new laptopl doesn't have a built-in Firewire port) and the adapter, while it has a 6-pin connector, doesn't provide power unless you plug an external power supply into IT'S power connector. At least I don't have to use the supplied 6-to-4 pin adapter. I don't trust something that long and that stiff to not either pull out or break off at an inopportune moment. (Reading that back, I hope it doesn't get censored!) If I had a 4-pin Firewire connector on my computer, I'd spring for a cable with the appropriate connectors at each end. And if Mackie had a conscience and was willing to give up a buck of profit, they could put one in the box.

Here are some measurements that I made on the bench that might help you understand how levels are related on the Satellite. These were all made in the purest way possible, on just the pod, without the dock:

Maximum mic preamp gain: 60 dB measured from mic input to CR output with both the mic input gain and and CR output level set to maximum.

Quiescent noise with the input terminated with a 150 ohm resistor (settings as above): -68 dBu. This would be the noise floor with a typical mic connected. It's pretty good white noise, with the highest level (-75 dBu) at 20 kHz, and sloping down at 3 dB per octave from there. There were no peaks in the middle, supporting my observation that I didn't hear a whine.

Mackie must have been listening when 400F users said that they couldn't get a hot enough recording from the line inputs. These have reasonable sensitivity. At maximum input gain, you reach clipping at an input level of -22 dBu. You get a reasonably comfortable 16 dB of headroom from a nominal +4 dBu source with the input gain set to 20 dB. The U (unity gain) setting gives a record level of -15 dBFS for +4 dBu in. That should be enough gain for anybody.

Input level is indicated by four LEDs: -40, -20, -10, and OL. The preamp clips about 1.5 dB above where the OL light comes on, so you really don't want to hit it. But with the next lower LED being 10 dB below clipping, you really don't have very good resolution in the top 10 dB range.

Going over to the digital side of the Firewire connector, the lower LEDs give you a pretty good indication of dBFS, but things get a little hairy at the top. Most A/D converters are calibrated so that they reach full scale a bit higher than the level at which whatever's feeding them clips. But not the Satellite. The A/D output is -1.9 dBFS at the preamp's clipping level. This suggests two things that you should watch:

[list=1]
You can't depend on the meters on your DAW to tell you that you've reached clipping. They never get to full scale. The line input is the same (not surprising since it's just an attenuated version of the mic input). When recording, keep an eye on the LEDs. If the OL light ever comes on, you've probalby clipped, so back off on the level.
This is probabably a good device to get you out of the habit of trying to squeeze the highest order bits on to the disk. If you're the type of person who thinks "My recordings are weak" when the waveform display isn't filling the space on the screen, get used to recording at lower levels. If the -20 light is on all the time and the -10 light is on most of the time, you'll have a good recording.
[/list=1]
The setup for simple stereo recording on Page 15 of the manual shows a pair of headphones pluggd into the pod, and a Firewire cable going to the computer. However, once the Firewire port becomes active (like when you connect it to the computer), tthe analog outputs (both the front panel headphone jacks and the rear panel CR jacks) go away. So while you can monitor with headphones while you're setting up (it's always a good idea to listen to what your mics are picking up before you press RECORD) you're deaf once you connect the pod to the computer.

I was using Sound Forge 8 with it for these tests, and maybe there's another button on there that I wasn't smart enough to find (I checked the Monitor box) that sends the DAW output back to the Satellite so at least you can monitor through that route. Later - yes, there is indeed such a button. Eureka! See the edited version of my other post. Quick summary - out of the dock, it switches from input monitor to DAW monitor when connected to the computer. Yes, there's a delay. Gotta live with it I like the idea of having a small box for remote recording, but I don't like recording when I can't hear what's going in to the mic inputs, or as I discovered later, hearing what's going in, but 100 ms late.

Finally, when playing back a full scale recording, the output stage will clip if you don't back the CR/Phones level down from maximum. The maximum level seems to be a couple of dB shy of the +18 dBu claimed in the manual, but headphone volume is ear-splitting at that level, and +16 dBu should drive any power amplifier or powered speakers to toodamnloud, so it's not a problem.

I have a couple of Onyx mixers and an 800R preamp here, and I concur with Craig's assessment that the mic inputs sound excellent. The only quibble there is the low phantom voltage that I mentioned in a previous post. I didn't try it with all of mics, and the few that I tried it with didn't see to have any problem running on 38V, but one of these days it might bite me, or you.

Enough fooling around for one day.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MikeRivers

The setup for simple stereo recording on Page 15 of the manual shows a pair of headphones pluggd into the pod, and a Firewire cable going to the computer. However, once the Firewire port becomes active (like when you connect it to the computer), tthe analog outputs (both the front panel headphone jacks and the rear panel CR jacks) go away. So while you can monitor with headphones while you're setting up (it's always a good idea to listen to what your mics are picking up before you press RECORD) you're deaf once you connect the pod to the computer.


Huh? How would that even work? What about doing overdubs? Or am I missing something here?

Anyhow that's great info Mike, thanks for posting it!

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Lee Flier


Huh? How would that even work? What about doing overdubs? Or am I missing something here?

Anyhow that's great info Mike, thanks for posting it!

Craig: Initially, I switched between monitoring the inputs on recording and the DAW outs on playback

???

[Dan Steinberg]

Hi there everyone, Dan Steinberg from Mackie here. I'll be posting from time to time along with Woody. Feel free to think of us as the "Martin and Lewis" of Pro Audio (hmm, maybe 32 years old is too young for such a reference).

Anyway, here's some comments on the posts so far:

Mike Rivers mentioned "However, once the Firewire port becomes active (like when you connect it to the computer), tthe analog outputs (both the front panel headphone jacks and the rear panel CR jacks) go away. So while you can monitor with headphones while you're setting up (it's always a good idea to listen to what your mics are picking up before you press RECORD) you're deaf once you connect the pod to the computer. "

Not true, I promise. All outputs absolutely, positively stay active when the unit is connected through Firewire, all phones jacks, all control room and line level outs. So, I am not sure why Mike is having trouble, but I can safely say that it is not from a design decision, and we have never experienced this issue here, we all are doing overdubs all day long with both the pod by itself, and the pod + dock combo.

Wall Wart adapter: We had originally specced a lump in the line cord as we know they are more user friendly, but were having some sourcing problems and did not want to make people wait for the product too long. We will be attempting to have future runs of the product use lump in the line. Same goes for, at some point, including a longer Firewire cable as we do with our other products.

Input source button: Craig mentioned that "First off, there’s a button to choose whether you’re going to be monitoring the input signals, or the signal coming back from the DAW."

Along with the other useful functions Craig mentioned, one great use for this button is to monitor connected sources, without the hassle of firing up DAW software just to monitor through it. Let's say you have a synth or a guitar pod connected to a line input and just want to noodle. You just press the button to monitor the input source, not the DAW, and you can now monitor the input (and use the control room volume knob)on a spur of the moment basis, kind of like having a mixer lying around. Also useful if you have a docked ipod connected, and just want to listen to some tunes real quick. Great for dorm rooms or small apartments where your pro audio rig is also your "stereo system"

Lastly, Mike brings up a good point that PCMCIA Firewire cards, even ones with 6 pin connectors, do not spit power out of those 6 pin ports like the built in ones on Macs or PC desktops do. I learned this the hard way myself. So please keep this in mind, I'd hate for anyone to buy a PCMCIA Firewire card and think they can then run the system without a power cord.

Thanks!

[Dan Steinberg]

The whine is gone!

I downloaded the "CHUD" utility from Apple and unchecked "processor nap" like Craig suggested, and bam, no more whine. In fact, I can "toggle" the whine on and off with that checkbox. I think I'll choose....no whine.

Craig, you are officially my hero. I will be sending a copy of this file to the tech support folks, and having them post this solution on our forum, as well as using it to help out anyone who calls up.

Now then, since some of you guys must have grown up along with me in the eighties and it's great B movies, who can be the first to tell us what C.H.U.D. really stands for?

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Lee Flier
Huh? How would that even work? What about doing overdubs? Or am I missing something here?
Substantially edited - if you read this before, read it again
Turns out that I was the ignoramus here, or rather I didn't know how to work the program I was using with it. However, the only way to monitor the input without docking the Satellite is through the computer, with its associated delays.

And if you doubt that combining a delayed signal with the undelayed signal makes you hear funny, here's a 20 Hz - 20 kHz sweep with Channel 1 monitored through Sound Forge in this case mixed with the original signal. Notice the 20 dB dips in the frequency response.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/OwwItHz/Sweep_512_sample_latency.jpg

Not my best technical photography, but you get the idea.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by the stranger


quote:Craig:

Initially, I switched between monitoring the inputs on recording and the DAW outs on playback

??? It's not that simple. First off, I was talking about using the pod without the docking station, but that button is on the docking station. Second, when monitoring from the DAW, in order to hear yourself, you have to set up the DAW for input monitoring. Either that doesn't work or I'm not smart enough to know how to do it.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg
Mike Rivers mentioned "However, once the Firewire port becomes active (like when you connect it to the computer), the analog outputs (both the front panel headphone jacks and the rear panel CR jacks) go away. So while you can monitor with headphones while you're setting up (it's always a good idea to listen to what your mics are picking up before you press RECORD) you're deaf once you connect the pod to the computer. "

Not true, I promise. All outputs absolutely, positively stay active when the unit is connected through Firewire, all phones jacks, all control room and line level outs. So, I am not sure why Mike is having trouble, but I can safely say that it is not from a design decision, and we have never experienced this issue hereWell, all is forgiven, sort of. Blame it on my ignorance of the program (Sound Forge) that I was using with the Satellite.

I broke down and started up Tracktion that I still had installed on that computer, figuring that if it doesn't work with Mackie's own program, it's broke. I enabled "end-to-end" in both places (we'd been through that) and sure enough I could hear myself, but with a huge delay. But we all know about that, don't we? Any fewer than 1024 samples latency and it was click city. This doesn't make for very comfortable monitoring even if you're not overdubbing. Maybe with a long enough mic cable. ;)

Going back to Sound Forge, well, you'd think that when there was a check box that said "Monitor" and you checked it, you'd be monitoring. Well, apparently that button only means "monitor on the meter" and all the way down at the bottom of the screen where I wasn't looking (because I thought I had already found the button to enable monitoring), there's a check box that says "Enable audio input monitoring." Duh! I've had some unpleasant words to say about difficulty in finding my way throuhg Sound Forge (I had it for a review), and I guess I need to look for yet another new word.

I'm not a DAW user, so I don't appreciate how difficult it is to either get the delay down to something workable or living with. It says the buffer setting is 23 ms (1024 samples) but with everything going on, Sound Forge is giving me a monitor delay of about 93 ms. That's almost enough time to go out and get a cup of coffee.

But don't tell me how to solve this problem. There are pages and pages on the web about optimizing a PC for recordings, and I'm not really interested in using it this way, but you might be.

Apparently when the Satellite is out of its docking station, it automatically switches from direct input monitoring to monitoring through the DAW when the Firewire connection is made, (just as if you'd pushed the SOURCE./DAW button on the dock). This makes sense since you need to hear what's coming back from the DAW when overdubbing. But I sure miss direct input monitoring.

[JAL]

The whine is gone! I downloaded the "CHUD" utility from Apple and unchecked "processor nap" like Craig suggested, and bam, no more whine. In fact, I can "toggle" the whine on and off with that checkbox. I think I'll choose....no whine.

Craig, you are officially my hero. I will be sending a copy of this file to the tech support folks, and having them post this solution on our forum, as well as using it to help out anyone who calls up.

The Mac solution is great.....if you're on a Mac.

For anyone who is thinking of buying a Mackie interface, I would definitely recommend going to the Mackie "support" forum first.

Not only do Mackie interfaces whine, but so do the customers (and rightly so).

[Anderton]

<<The Mac solution is great.....if you're on a Mac. >>

It's only some Macs, from what I understand, although I'm hoping some Macintel users will weigh in on the subject (I tested with a dual G5). I didn't have whine on a G4.

Also, I've never had any whine issues on my Windows desktop (ADK dual core) or laptop (Rain Recording Pentium-M). In fact, the reason why I tested the Satellite on the Mac was because after having no problems at all with the 400F while testing with Windows machines, I was determined to get that ephemeral whine problem people were talking about, and it seemed like the Mac would be the ticket. It was. After CHUD, it wasn't :)

[MikeRivers]

Some food for thought. The connector to the docking station looked to me like a fairly common style backplane connector. I opened up the pod and looked up the connector on the manufactuer's (Molex) web site. Yup, that's what it is, and it's specified for 500 insertion/removal cycles. That means it'll go 500 cycles before the contacts may no longer meet their specifications. That's not unreasonable for a card in a card cage where you swap out a card when it breaks, but I'm wondering if it's robust enough for something that's designed to be engaged and disengaged as part of its role in life.

So if you had one, how often do you think you'd unplug the pod from the dock? If you did it once a week to take it to the band rehearsal, that would be good for around 10 years - certainly good enough. But if you took it out to record something several times a week, then put it back in the dock when you got home, it might barely last long enough to get tired of it.

Of course after the connector wore out, you could use the pod without the dock, or if you really, really, really wanted it badly enough, replace the connectors.

So if you had one, how often would you use the little part by itself?

[Anderton]

And for those who want to see what Mike is talking about, here's a shot of the dock connector...

[Anderton]

...and here's the connector on the Satellite part.

[Anderton]

First of all Mike, thanks for the excellent info. I've been warned that many devices claiming to deliver +48V don't, but hadn't measured the Satellite yet...so thanks for saving me the effort.

Second, regarding this comment:

<<It's not that simple. First off, I was talking about using the pod without the docking station, but that button is on the docking station.>>

I'm travelling right now, but I'm pretty sure the manual recommends that you use the pod and dock, or the pod by itself, as using just the dock doesn't provide all the options of using both together.

<<Second, when monitoring from the DAW, in order to hear yourself, you have to set up the DAW for input monitoring. >>

I don't think there's any way around that with the Satellite. To me, that's not a huge deal as the latency is sufficiently low it doesn't bug me, and for any signal source where I'm using plug-ins in the host, I'd prefer to hear their effects anyway. But you're right, if you have to listen to the DAW with zero latency monitoring from the Satellite, there's really no option, like a little mixer applet.

[Anderton]

<<But if you took it out to record something several times a week, then put it back in the dock when you got home, it might barely last long enough to get tired of it. >>

Research above and beyond the call of duty on that Molex connector :)

I wonder if those specs are a guaranteed minimum, average value, worst case, or what. I'll assume guaranteed minimum, in which case whether that was an acceptable figure or not would really matter how you planned to use the connect/disconnect feature. I imagine one typical scenario would be to use the dock/satellite with a desktop machine, and the satellite with a laptop. Then it would boil down to how often do you do remote laptop recording...or if you wanted to take it on vacation.

I'm also assuming the "remote recording" angle because the Satellite doesn't have MIDI, but does have the really nice mic pres.

I can't speak for Mackie, so hopefully someone from Mackie will chime in. But my assumption is that Mackie saw the Satellite as a way to appeal to someone who wanted a desktop interface and mobile interface, and would be willing to pay a little more than either one by itself in order to have both.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
And for those who want to see what Mike is talking about . . And here's the data sheet (http://tinyurl.com/z6yxe). I wonder if those specs are a guaranteed minimum, average value, worst case, or what. I'll assume guaranteed minimum, in which case whether that was an acceptable figure or not would really matter how you planned to use the connect/disconnect feature.I think that's correct, it's a guaranteed minimum, but it's also statistical. The manufacturer would probably give you a new one if yours wore out in fewer than 500 insertions, but whether Mackie is willing to guarantee it (and give you a new Satellite or a free repair job) - not too likely. Besides, who counts, unless it's the person whose job is to test it and come up with the specification for the connector? ;) I'm guessing that when it leaves the dock will be when it goes to a recording gig away from home, but maybe even just to the back yard to record the crickets. Someone who figures they'll leave it in the dock except for recording the band gig every couple of months will be fine with it.I don't think there's any way around that [monitoring through the DAW] with the Satellite. To me, that's not a huge deal as the latency is sufficiently low it doesn't bug me, and for any signal source where I'm using plug-ins in the host, I'd prefer to hear their effects anyway. But you're right, if you have to listen to the DAW with zero latency monitoring from the Satellite, there's really no option, like a little mixer applet.With gentle application of a sledge hammer to the computer, I managed to get it to record a glitchless stereo track with the latency set to 128 samples. I haven't tried multitracking. With this setting, the throughput delay is down to around 30 ms.

But wait! There's more! Even with the monitor button on the dock set to SOURCE, the audio still goes through the A/D and D/A converters and whatever else it passes through in the big chip to get from input to output. The minimum input-output delay is about 1 ms. That's what I call "low latency monitoring" but not "no latency monitoring." It won't throw your playing off, but you can get comb filtering at your ears when the delayed sound from the headphones mixes with the acoustic sound coming up to the other side of your eardrum through your throat. Most people don't notice this because they monitor too loud and the headphones swamp out the acoustic sound, but at the right monitor level, it's noticable. Of course this isn't recorded, but it bothers some singers.

And here's another tidbit about the phantom power. I checked the current, and it tops out at 4 mA per leg. To meet the IEC standard for phantom powering, it should be able to supply 10 mA total (5 mA per leg - DC-wise pins 2 and 3 are in parallel so you get double the current). Doing a little extrapolation and applying Ohm's Law, I believe that they have the official correct value (6.8K) resistors in series with the phantom power source. If there was 48V going to the resistors, you'd have the full amount of current available. And, no, I (still) can't tell you what mics it will or won't work with, but be aware that you might eventually run into one that wants more voltage or current.

Also, for the benefit of anyone who actually reads the manual and follows the typical hookup diagrams, there are a couple of incorrectnesses with the diagrams on pages 13 and 14. On page 13, there's a stereo guitar effect processor with its outputs connected to line inputs 1-2 on Channel 1, and a (stero I assume since it has two outputs) keyboard with its outputs connected to line inputs 1-2 on channel 2.

That won't give you stereo on either one. The cables need to cross, so the guitar processor's outputs are connected to, for example, line input 1 on channels 1 and 2, and the keyboard's outputs are connected to line input 2 on channels 1 and 2. That allows you to record the guitar or the keyboard in stereo by selecting either line input 1 or 2 on both channels. Or, if you can get the levels balanced, record a mix of the two by pressing all four buttons.

I don't quite understand the application on Page 14 (two video decks in, and surround out) but I'm assuming tha tthe video deck's outputs are stereo, and therefore each deck should go to channels 1 and 2, not two inputs on one channel. The diagram on Page 16 (stereo output from an iPod and a TV set) is correct. Perhaps things got a little too crowded with all those wires in the other diagrams and the artist took a shortcut, or a donut break.

[MikeRivers]

These are more of academic interest, but in the interest of interest, I present for your amusement:

Since the "straight through" signal path goes through the A/D and D/A converters, its bandwidth is naturally limited by the sample rate. This is one of the reasons why higher sample rates are sometimes justified, and when it's set to run at 96 kHz, there's more high end than you or your dog can use. However, when the unit is running at 44.1 kHz, the high end drops off sharply at just above 21 kHz, and about 23.1 kHz at 48 kHz sample rate.

The Satellite wakes up at 48 kHz and that's where it remains when it's not talking to the driver via Firewire and told to switch to a different rate. Therefore, be aware that when the pod is used barefoot as an outboard analog mic preamp, the top end rolls off at 23 kHz

This falls more into the realm of investigative journalism than truly useful information, but It's worth noting if you're inclined to use the pod by itself as an auxilary preamp, for example, to provide a couple more mic inputs for a mixer like the Mackie Onyx 1220 or 1620 that doesn't have a mic preamp on every channel. If you think you're getting extended high end in your recording by running the mixer at 96 kHz, remember that the mic channels that go through the Satellite preamps will be limited to 23 kHz. In real life, that's probably just fine, but if you're the sort that believes that there's something to record up there and your mics are good enough to capture it, do it through the mixer's mic channels and not through the Satellite.

Another thing that's more academic than likely to be a practical problem is crosstalk between the channels. With a test signal connected to any input of channel 1 and the input gain fully up on channel 2, the channel 1 signal apears in channel w, not just in the monitor, but it gets recorded. At 100 Hz, this crosstalk is a fairly reasonable 60 dB down, but (as is typical of crosstalk) it rises with frequency, being only about 30 dB down at 10 kHz.

This appears to be due to some internal coupling. It doesn't matter which input on the dock is selected (or no input selected), even with a shorting plug connected to the selected input, with one exception. Interestingly, with a mic connected to channel 2 and the mic input is selected, the crosstalk level drops substantially, to a tolerable -55 dB at 10 kHz and a respectable (practically down in the noise) -70 dB at 100 Hz.

I didn't record all the data in the other direction (driving channel 2 and looking for crosstalk in channel 1) but a quick check shows that it's essentially the same in that direction.

Just a couple more things to worry about. ;)

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MikeRivers

Since the "straight through" signal path goes through the A/D and D/A converters, its bandwidth is naturally limited by the sample rate. This is one of the reasons why higher sample rates are sometimes justified, and when it's set to run at 96 kHz, there's more high end than you or your dog can use. However, when the unit is running at 44.1 kHz, the high end drops off sharply at just above 21 kHz, and about 23.1 kHz at 48 kHz sample rate.

The Satellite wakes up at 48 kHz and that's where it remains when it's not talking to the driver via Firewire and told to switch to a different rate. Therefore, be aware that when the pod is used barefoot as an outboard analog mic preamp, the top end rolls off at 23 kHz


Bummer, so there's no way to bypass the converters if you're using it as an outboard pre? I don't suppose there's a SPDIF connection either if you want to use it as an outboard pre on a digital console that doesn't have firewire, and avoid another stage of conversion.

Anyhow, once again great info, Mike! Yes there are a few of us who actually care about these things. ;)

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Lee Flier Bummer, so there's no way to bypass the converters if you're using it as an outboard pre? I don't suppose there's a SPDIF connection either if you want to use it as an outboard pre on a digital console that doesn't have firewire, and avoid another stage of conversion.No S/PDIF, but if you just want to use the preamp, you can take the output from the Insert Send jack on the docking station. That's ahead of the A/D converter and it's got all the high frequency response you'd ever want. It's 3 dB down at about 400 kHz (Sir Rupert would be proud), which I think is going just a bit too far and should be rolled off so it doesn't pass radio stations.

The pod doesnt' have an insert jack, however, so if you want to use it as an analog preamp, you have to deal with more bulk and an unbalanced output that maxes out at +18 dBu.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MikeRivers
No S/PDIF, but if you just want to use the preamp, you can take the output from the Send jack on the docking station. That's ahead of the A/D converter and it's got all the high frequency response you'd ever want. It's 3 dB down at about 400 kHz (Sir Rupert would be proud), which I think is going just a bit too far and should be rolled off so it doesn't pass radio stations.


Excellent... LOL... :D Well that works, at least there's a way to do it. I am really curious to hear these preamps.

[Anderton]

<<I am really curious to hear these preamps.>>

They're like the difference between a guitar going direct into a high-impedance input, and a guitar going into a decent line in...very clean. Maybe the extended HF response has something to do with that?

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Lee Flier
Well that works, at least there's a way to do it. I am really curious to hear these preamps. If you've heard an Onyx mixer, you've heard the preamps, at least I'm pretty sure of that. Though I haven't seen a Satellite schematic, the Satellite preamps test identically to those in my Onyx mixers - same gain, same 400 kHz frequency response at the direct output, same 1 dB rolloff at 20 Hz or so at maximum gain, flatter down lower at 10 dB less gain. This is a considerable improvement over the VLZ-Pro, which is about -3 dB at 20 Hz at full gain - they cheaped out on a capacitor in that design.

While the Satellite has some interesting ergonomic features, and I have no quibbles at all with how it sounds, if Mackie preamps are what you're looking for, you don't need a pocket-sized 2-channel Firewire interface, and can afford about double the footprint, the Onyx 1220 mixer might be a better buy. The satellite is $400, the mixer $530.

With the mixer, you get four preamps (with individually switchable real 48V phantom power and insert jacks) plus four stereo line inputs, EQ on all channels (with a bypass switch), faders, pans, mutes, low cut filter, balanced direct (pre-fader/EQ recording) ouptuts, and the option of adding a Firewire interface if you need it.

The other day I was showing the Satellite to a friend who has a weekly radio show and has been thinking about setting up a facility at home to pre-record it when she needs to do that (though she really likes working live). As we were talking, I realized that it doesn't have a mono button. While the direct left and right input routing is fine for CD players, she needs a mic in the center which would require a Y cable to split it to both mic inputs. I haven't checked the buttons for clicks, but I suspect that pushing faders up and down would be quieter. And it's easier to adjust the level from a CD with a single stereo fader than two rotary knobs.

So, like so many other pieces of gear, you really need to figure out why you like it, and then decide if it's the best (or only) thing that fits that need or lust.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton
One thing about Pro Reviews is once a company tries one, they want to do it again. That’s a good sign, and this one is particularly interesting because Mackie holds the record for the most number of posts ever in the Pro Review for their Onyx 400F (which still, almost a year after its start, is still getting posts).

There were a few reasons why this so: First of all, it's a good piece of gear that potentially fit a lot of users needs, so they wanted to find out more about it. Second, there were a lot of interesting "sidebars" about audio quality, conversion, phase linearity, and the like. Third, although the majority of users reported no problems, a small group experienced weird FireWire "whines" and some other issues that stubbornly resisted solutions. Oddly, this seemed to be pretty much a Mac-only phenomenon, and only certain Mac models at that.
:confused:

At Mike River’s suggestion, I harvested the thread for stats on page 22. (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1097071&perpage=20&pagenumber=22) I found that the overwhelming majority of 400f users reported problems, and multiple, non-mac-related problems at that. Of 22 actual users (removing the single most negative and positive response):

- 10% were happy campers
- 30% were satisfied but with reservations / problems
- 60% were unhappy and reported multiple problems, from wobbly knobs to multiple hum and whine issues, insufficient gain issues, driver issues, etc.

The value of this brilliant format is that regular users post their views. I cannot recall any product that has generated so many negative ones. And they continue, unsolicited. Just the other day, I noticed that someone posted in the ever-popular ITB thread: “I've been thinking of switching from Paris, and so I've been testing out a Mackie 400f (which, turns out, has noise when the phantom power is switched on ).” Another user, another problem.

I have no axe to grind, and am able to filter out the crusaders whose bad experience has driven them to complain loudly. But I find the number of average users reporting problems with the 400f to be stunning. And because this is entry-level gear, there are undoubtedly novice users unable to distinguish between a hardware problem and their own inexperience.

I am therefore baffled by your summary. Have I misunderstood?

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[James Woodburn]

Hi Guys - sorry I have not had a chance to post again earlier - I have been super busy over here at Mackie HQ.

Dan and I have been catching up with the review - thanks Mike for the in depth analysis and advice - I always know when we send you a product to test it will get the thorough checkout, inside and out, that it deserves.

Dan is feverishly typing our comments regarding the phantom power levels and driver developments and I would like to address the concerns that Brittanylips has raised.....

Satellite is our third generation firewire I/O product based on the latest technology, therefore an entirely different chipset and architecture than our second-generation firewire product - the 400F. We have shipped thousands of 400F's so far around the world exceeding our own forecasts and the vast majorities of users are happy and consider the product to be a market leader for sound quality. With all that said, please keep in mind that forums by nature can be perceived as negative - they are after all a primary resource for people seeking solutions to problems. Customers that are happily creating music with their products are drastically less inclined to spend the time to post.........:-) We believe very strongly in the 400F and will continue to develop enhancements, and in doing so, support both current and future Mackie customers.

With any technology product that is produced in these volumes the chances of issues arising with small numbers of units does exist. Here at Mackie we pride ourselves on the fact that we have an industry leading support team who take their jobs very personally and are willing to go 'the extra mile' to ensure customer satisfaction. Mike Rivers has known us all a long time and I am sure he will vouch for our integrity in dealing with these matters as quickly and completely as we can. We also consider our own forums - which we run with a very open policy not shared by most of our competitors - to be a resource for both us and our customers and this has proved to be a major benefit throughout the years. So, with that in mind, I am very happy to read both Craig’s and Mike’s positive feedback for the new Satellite interface and I am very much looking forward to reading feedback from other Satellite users as this thread progresses.

[Anderton]

<<I have no axe to grind, and am able to filter out the crusaders whose bad experience has driven them to complain loudly. But I find the number of average users reporting problems with the 400f to be stunning. And because this is entry-level gear, there are undoubtedly novice users unable to distinguish between a hardware problem and their own inexperience.

I am therefore baffled by your summary. Have I misunderstood?>>

No, but I should give a full-length explanation rather than a summary. I didn't harvest the thread, and didn't do totals of who liked or didn't like the 400F. And I don't know if my comments about the unsuitable performance with WDM drivers would put me in the "satisfied" or "with reservations" column. And if someone posted that they were very happy with the sound but had a problem with something like wobbly knobs, that to me would be more favorable than saying something had rock solid knobs but sounded like crap.

The thing is, one tends to see things through one's personal experiences. WDM driver issues aside, I thought the sound was great, the construction was excellent, and I had none of the whine or weird noise issues people experienced (although at the time, I did not have Mac set up, only Windows machines...and frankly, my ADK desktop computer is rock solid and seems to play very well with all other hardware I use with it, from interfaces to camcorders).

When the comments about problems started surfacing, I tried my best to make the 400F malfunction. I couldn't, and because I couldn't, I couldn't propose a fix for the problems people were having. As a result, I spent lots of time checking out other boards and comments about the 400F to see if maybe there was a common pattern to problems as I couldn't experience these for myself. My impression was that the whine thing seemed to be more of a problem with Macs that Windows machines. There were other complaints about the unit (like the sound being "brittle," or there not being enough level at the line ins), but I felt these were less relevant. Why? Because a lot of people didn't have problems with the sound quality or thought the sound quality was excellent, and the question of levels seemed to depend on what of gear you were using with it. The thread made it clear what to expect from the levels, so if it didn't fit your needs, you could pass. Ditto sound quality: If you didn't like it, you didn't have to buy it.

But the whine thing would be a deal-breaker. No matter how much you liked the preamp sound, or regardless of whether the level controls did the job, it didn't matter if there was an annoying whine.

I never was able to get the 400F to misbehave, and I can report only on my experience. When the review was over, Mackie donated the unit to a school that specializes in teaching music to kids. The unit got a real workout there for months, under varying conditions, with varying instruments and funky computers. It didn't misbehave there, either.

However, I don't give up easily. I was determined to experience the problems people were reporting, particularly after receiving a private email from an engineer (not from Mackie) who said in no uncertain terms that FireWire is a lousy choice for an interface to carry audio, and that a variety of problems are bound to crop up with interfaces that use FireWire. This was supported by posts in other threads on other sites about non-Mackie FireWire devices having whines. I started to feel that these whine issues were not unique to the 400F, although as I didn't have them, I couldn't help but wonder what the variable was.

This is why I tested the PreSonus Inspire 1394 with the Mac, and interestingly, had whine problems that ultimately were related to a graphics problem (and once that was fixed, my personal assessment of the Inspire went from negative to positive. But the unit itself didn't change; only the context in which it was installed). This was not easy to uncover: It took a lot of posts and having Presonus send me a total of three Inspires before I found the graphics-related glitch.

So, this is also why I tested the Onyx with the Mac: I was hoping lightning would strike twice. And it did. And the CHUD utility ended the problem. I don't know if this is exactly the problem others experienced, but it was a problem, and fortunately, it was fixable. I have since used the Onyx as the main interface for my Riffworks pro review, with no problems other than the possibility that it may not report latency correctly under OS X, leading to a slight cutoff at the beginning of a sequence. I will do more tests to see if this is indeed the case.

Ultimately, my impression after taking in the entire universe of Mackie 400F info that I had -- from this thread, from other threads, from Mackie regarding rates of return and so on -- was that indeed, "although the majority of users reported no problems, a small group experienced weird FireWire 'whines' and some other issues that stubbornly resisted solutions. Oddly, this seemed to be pretty much a Mac-only phenomenon, and only certain Mac models at that." (In retrospect, it may not have been clear when I wrote that sentence that by "this" I was referring specifically to the whine.)

My conclusion was not based on a statistical analysis of all the info I had, and I would have to agree that a Pro Review thread is definitely going to attract more people who are having problems and are in need of a solution. I experience this every day with magazines: People write when they're upset about something. They may see me at a trade show and say "Hey, I loved that article you did," but they'll rarely take the time to write that down.

The ultimate indicator of customer satisfaction, I believe, is how many units get returned. You do need to allow for people who don't bother to return something for whatever reason, but Mackie told me that had less than 1% returns on the 400F and I take that statistic at face value. Even assuming ten times that number either didn't return the units despite dissatisfaction or had probllems but kept the unit anyway because it worked "well enough," to me that still indicates that the majority of 400F owners were satisfied with their purchase on some level, and I'm sure of those, a percentage was very satisfied.

In the end, all I can say with absolute certainty is that had I bought the 400F, I would have been very satisfied and not returned it.

[dwrecker]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg
The whine is gone!


Now then, since some of you guys must have grown up along with me in the eighties and it's great B movies, who can be the first to tell us what C.H.U.D. really stands for?

Cannibalistic Humanoid Undergound Dwellers... great flick.
(In case this wasnt already answered.)

[d. gauss]

Originally posted by Anderton In the end, all I can say with absolute certainty is that had I bought the 400F, I would have been very satisfied and not returned it.

provided you bought a "properly working" unit. :)

i returned 2, and a client returned 1.

i think there has been great confusion with this whole "whine" thing. obviously some folks had some sort of firewire related noise. call it a whine, whatever. i never experienced that.

HOWEVER, and i believe this is the deeper problem, (as evidenced by the 400f thread and my own personal experience with 3 different units), some 400f's make a noise when NOT connected to any computer at all.
not PC, not mac, just a 400f connected to nothing but monitors or headphones.
since the word was out on the firewire "whine," i'd bet some folks heard this and just assumed it was 'cause of the firewire.

what i experienced: if you have no microphones plugged in, no computer connected, and you turn up channel 4, you got a buzz. turn off the phantom power and the buzz goes away. channel 1? clean as a whistle. channel 4? not so much. this wouldn't be such a big deal if you could turn off the phantom power on each channel.

hell, lots of home recording folks who bought a 400f and record one thing at a time may never have even used channel 4, and so never experienced a noise at all!

the 400f's that i had sounded great except for the noise issues. that was a deal breaker for me.

so here we are with a new mackie offering. curious if someone could test this new satellite in a similar fashion? i.e. turn the gain up on the preamps, with no computer connected, no microphones connected, and phantom power on. turn of the phantom. any differences?

also, how is the headphone level? on the defective 400f's i had, the level was low and exhibited a weird thing where there was distortion in the middle range of the volume control. at the very low and very high settings it was clear though.

and before anybody pisses all over me for mackie bashing, i OWN an onyx 1620 and love it. but it isn't the easiest thing to lug around, so i'd be curious about a satellite if it actually avoids the issues of the 400f. and/or if the 1200F EVER actually ships and really works, i'll buy one of those too. :)

-d. gauss

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by d. gauss
curious if someone could test this new satellite in a similar fashion? i.e. turn the gain up on the preamps, with no computer connected, no microphones connected, and phantom power on. turn of the phantom. any differences?I did. Initially I checked it out in the docking station, connected to the computer, and found no whine, with or without phantom power. I did give it a fair chance and terminated the inputs with a "dummy mic" - a 150 ohm resistor between pins 2-3 of an XLR connector - so I didn't pick up any EMI from the air.

When I tried the pod by itself, initially I heard no whine, whether or not it was connected to the computer. Then I discovered that when connected to the computer, there needed to be a DAW program running and set to Input Monitor in order to get some sound to the output jacks. When I did this, at full gain both at input and output, I did hear a very faint whine in the headphones, but I couldn't hear it from the monitors at my normal working distance of about four feet. Switching the phantom power on or off made no difference.

I made a recording of the dummy mics with the input gain up full, amplified it by 60 dB in the DAW, and saw no evidence of a whine when looking at it with a spectrum analyzer. So my conclusion was that at a normal monitor level setting, any whine that was present was well below the ambient noise level, and under no circumstances did a whine appear in a recording. I can certainly use it. It's much quieter than the hum and noise from the aging analog console that I use all the time. also, how is the headphone level?With a recording of music with peaks about 6 dB below full scale (a live recording, not from an ultra-compressed commercial CD) and Sony 7506 headphones, I had a comfortably loud level at about 2 o'clock on the headphone volume control. It was too loud for me to listen to when up full. My Fostex T20 headphones are a little quieter (and less bright so I can tolerate a highe level with them than with the Sony phones) I was able to tolerate the level with the headphone volume control up full, but I wouldn't want to work that way.

In either case, there was no audible whine in the headphones with the volume lower than one division below full scale. It was easier to hear the whine with the Sony phones than with the Fostex, probalby because of their exaggerated mid-high frequency response.
and before anybody pisses all over me for mackie bashing, i OWN an onyx 1620 and love it. but it isn't the easiest thing to lug around, so i'd be curious about a satellite if it actually avoids the issues of the 400fI "lug around" a 1220 and have lugged around a 1620. I don't lug around a 1640. If you can live with just two inputs to the DAW, I see no reason not to use the Satellite. The pod can fit in most laptop computer bags.

[Anderton]

Well Mike, you beat me to it, and you're doing a great job on the Pro Review :) :)

Anyway, my experiences parallel Mike's exactly. So if nothing else, at least we have very similar units.

[Anderton]

<<f you can live with just two inputs to the DAW, I see no reason not to use the Satellite. The pod can fit in most laptop computer bags.>>

Yes, but don't forget you'll need the AC adapter if your laptop has a 4-pin firewire connection.

I should also add that the satellite part is not exactly lightweight, but the good news is that means it's built very solidly. And also, as the satellite has the mic pres, you get those nice pres out in the field.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
Well Mike, you beat me to it, and you're doing a great job on the Pro Review :) :)

Anyway, my experiences parallel Mike's exactly. So if nothing else, at least we have very similar units. I noticed something else whineworthy. When I had it in the dock and had the headphones plugged in to either headphone jack, swinging the Control Room volume pot around its 12 o'clock position, I thought I heard the whine change pitch and volume. Acutally what I was hearing was a little zipper noise in the phones. That's without it being connected to the computer.

When connected to the computer, the whine volume drops, and by jogging the CR volume pot around +/- one division, the whine definitely reduces in the middle of the swing. In fact, by jogging it around fast enough, about 2-3 cycles per second, the whine practically disappears.

Strange. Back in the old short wave receiver days, we called those things "birdies" - the result of a parasitic oscillation somewhere, usually a wire too close to the chassis that was acticng like a capacitor.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by James Woodburn
Dan is feverishly typing our comments regarding the phantom power levels and driver developments and I would like to address the concerns that Brittanylips has raised.....

Satellite is our third generation firewire I/O product based on the latest technology, therefore an entirely different chipset and architecture than our second-generation firewire product - the 400F. We have shipped thousands of 400F's so far around the world exceeding our own forecasts and the vast majorities of users are happy and consider the product to be a market leader for sound quality. With all that said, please keep in mind that forums by nature can be perceived as negative - they are after all a primary resource for people seeking solutions to problems. Customers that are happily creating music with their products are drastically less inclined to spend the time to post.........:-) We believe very strongly in the 400F and will continue to develop enhancements, and in doing so, support both current and future Mackie customers.

With any technology product that is produced in these volumes the chances of issues arising with small numbers of units does exist. Here at Mackie we pride ourselves on the fact that we have an industry leading support team who take their jobs very personally and are willing to go 'the extra mile' to ensure customer satisfaction. Mike Rivers has known us all a long time and I am sure he will vouch for our integrity in dealing with these matters as quickly and completely as we can.
I understand. But in this case, you agreed to participate in a format in which the views of regular users are solicited. The idea, as originally presented, was that the views of regular users have value. If you are inclined to dismiss them as without value, then why participate in this format?

No other Pro Review has generated such a negative response. Other Pro Reviews include accounts of users happily making music and reporting their positive experiences. So the phenomenon of largely negative reports is limited to the 400f, and did not occur with other products the underwent the same process.

Furthermore, something happened in that thread which is rare on the internet and worth noting. As you say, unhappy users often flock to the net to complain while happy users are busy making music (although the Pro Review format seems remarkably immune to this). However, in that thread, a large proportion of users express a predisposition to like the 400f. They begin with a favorable impression, reinforced by Craig’s positive experience. Then, as the thread continues, as they confront problem after problem, many change their opinion from positive to negative. A change of opinion is so rare in this type of forum, it is almost an historical event, like a flower that blossoms only once every 100 years, and is therefore particularly persuasive. These were not your typical internet complainers, they were not there to complain, and their views should not be dismissed as such.

You mentioned Mike Rivers as a reference for Mackie integrity. I’m not sure what this has to do with Mackie integrity or Mike Rivers. This is about whether the real-life experience of a majority of 400f users in that thread matters. As for Mackie’s integrity, frankly, I’m not sure what that really means, but personally, I would have to say that my own experience with Mackie has always been excellent. As for Mike Rivers, he makes no bones of his history with the company and appears to be on something of a Mackie crusade. So although I enjoy reading his posts and learn a lot from them, I am much more interested in what Craig has to say, and the views of regular users. While Mike debated them without having used the 400f, if we take seriously the premise of the Pro Review, and recognize that many of these people are entering the thread with a favorable predisposition, then any objective reading of that thread has to acknowledge that the 400f seems to be giving the people who are actually buying it an awful lot of grief.

Incidentally, when the FireFace 800 first came out, audio forums were rife with complaints about driver issues, and I knew to avoid it. RME fixed the driver issues, online response changed from negative to positive, and I accumulated one. While the initial negative feedback about the FireFace is nothing like the cacophony of negative reports inspired by the 400f, the point is the same: real-life users reporting their real-life experience has value. As does the evaluation of a Professional Reviewer. Ostensibly, the Pro Review says both components have value, and if you agree to take part in it, and benefit from its obvious publicity value, then you should be prepared to accept the results. A bunch of people volunteered their time, energy, and effort to describe their honest, genuine, actual experience and you dismiss that because you don’t like what turned up. If you will only accept positive opinions as valid, and justify away any negative ones, then you are degrading the format and pooping on the time, energy, and effort that a lot of people put into that thread.

In any case, even though I am bothered by your response (just as I understand why you are inclined to issue it), I have been a Mackie fan for many years and look forward to anything Mackie has to make, particularly future generations of this type of interface which, as you suggest, will only get better.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton
No, but I should give a full-length explanation rather than a summary. I didn't harvest the thread, and didn't do totals of who liked or didn't like the 400F. And I don't know if my comments about the unsuitable performance with WDM drivers would put me in the "satisfied" or "with reservations" column.
Thanks for your explanation. I counted your response as entirely positive and said so. None of your nitpicks crossed the threshold of what I considered a reservation.
Originally posted by Anderton
The thing is, one tends to see things through one's personal experiences.
Hence the value of the format! Through a number of opinions, expert plus average users, we get a better picture than either side by itself. Yay Pro Review!
Originally posted by Anderton
WDM driver issues aside, I thought the sound was great, the construction was excellent, and I had none of the whine or weird noise issues people experienced
I don’t question your evaluation for one nanosecond. I accept and appreciate it and admire your work chasing down the Mac issue.

I suppose there could be many reasons why, in this unusual instance, the aggregate user experience did not allign with yours, and I understand your point that complainers are loudest. But it seems like the Pro Review is remarkably immune to this, and many participants began with a favorable predisposition. As I see it, this is when the format is at its best - when one side is modulated by the other.

In any case, you may have simply had the good luck to receive a good unit, it may have been pre-selected (I know you get a lot of lemons as well, but we’ll never know), it’s possible that things that do not bother you, with your expertise and “studio hygiene,” might bother less-expert users... again, the value of the format.

For example, and this is only one of several examples of this kind of divergence: the loud pop bothered many users, but with your expertise and studio hygiene (order of turning things on and off), it was a non-issue. So for those users who report this as a real problem, I accept that.
Originally posted by Anderton
Ultimately, my impression after taking in the entire universe of Mackie 400F info that I had -- from this thread, from other threads, from Mackie regarding rates of return and so on -- was that indeed, "although the majority of users reported no problems, a small group experienced weird FireWire 'whines' and some other issues that stubbornly resisted solutions. Oddly, this seemed to be pretty much a Mac-only phenomenon, and only certain Mac models at that." (In retrospect, it may not have been clear when I wrote that sentence that by "this" I was referring specifically to the whine.)
What wasn’t clear to me was not the meaning of “this,” it was the low weight you gave to thread participants in your universe. I feel like I’m a bigger cheerleader of the format that you created than you are! User after user reported problem after problem. I cannot recall a product that has generated so many reports of problems. If that carries less weight than Mackie-reported rates of return (arguably a promotional material), then why have the format?Originally posted by Anderton
The ultimate indicator of customer satisfaction, I believe, is how many units get returned.Again, then why not abolish user feedback, and simply post this number? Incidentally, there are a number of ways to manipulate a ‘rate of return.’
Originally posted by Anderton
Mackie told me that had less than 1% returns on the 400F and I take that statistic at face valueFine. But why not give the participants in your own forum the same face value acceptance? You could just as easily be skeptical of materials provided by a company interested in selling stuff. Instead, you’re skeptical of thread participants, squashing a majority of them into an overal "minority".
Originally posted by Anderton
“The thing is, one tends to see things through one's personal experiences. WDM driver issues aside, I thought the sound was great, the construction was excellent, and I had none of the whine or weird noise issues people experienced (although at the time, I did not have Mac set up, only Windows machines...and frankly, my ADK desktop computer is rock solid and seems to play very well with all other hardware I use with it, from interfaces to camcorders). “
All the more reason to be interested in how this thing works for others. I completely accept your evaluation. But am I deluded for taking seriously all those accounts from regular users reporting problem after problem? Again, I can scrape away the crusaders, but there’s just report after report of problem after problem. To me, this seems vindication for the format, unless all these people are not to be believed. And if they’re not, then what’s the point? Why am I reading this? Why am I writing this? Life has to have some meaning, even on the internet.

Is d. gauss’s post above white noise I should filter away?

Should I disregard the recent post from a working musician who, among other things, describes his terminal brain tumor, admiration for the sound of the 400f, but transmission whine issues shooting into his speakers and a replacement experience? (Incidentally, I did not count him as an unhappy customer, and accept what he says at face value).

Anyway, I won’t belabor this. I’ve made my point. I truly admire all the work you’ve done on this and I accept your opinion, truly, just as I accept theirs. Where we differ is in whether we view the aggregate opinions of participants in that thread as a significant component in the universe of information or not.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Anderton]

<<What wasn’t clear to me was not the meaning of “this,” it was the low weight you gave to thread participants in your universe. I feel like I’m a bigger cheerleader of the format that you created than you are! User after user reported problem after problem. I cannot recall a product that has generated so many reports of problems. If that carries less weight than Mackie-reported rates of return (arguably a promotional material), then why have the format?>>

I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that people have experienced problems, the 400F thread is a testimony to that. But what was particularly frustrating for me was that I couldn't duplicate the experiences so I could figure out how to solve them, which I believe is part of my role with as the "moderator" of the Pro Review. I never knew if people were having a computer issue, a something else issue, another FireWire device on the same bus issue, the phase of the moon, or all of the above. It would be possible to argue that you give a disproportionate weight to the people who experienced problems, given the universe of 400F owners. I'm just trying to be fair and take everything into account.


<<quote:Originally posted by Anderton
The ultimate indicator of customer satisfaction, I believe, is how many units get returned.

Again, then why not abolish user feedback, and simply post this number? Incidentally, there are a number of ways to manipulate a ‘rate of return.’ >>

Because simply posting the number doesn't explain what the problems are with people who DID/DO experience problems. Ideally, people would explain problems, and others would be able to contribute a solution. To me, THAT'S the value of a Pro Review: One complains not just for the sake of complaining, but to find a solution, which (let me reiterate) is why it was frustrating that I couldn't experience the problems people were having. I feel much better about the Satellite review (which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about, not the 400F) because I did in fact encounter the "Mac FireWire whine" issue, did find a solution, and was able to help other people. Hence, anyone who felt negative because of the whine could feel positive upon eliminating it.,

Although I'm sure some problems people experienced with the 400F were due to some design flaw in the 400F that made it incompatible with their system for one reason or another, I'm equally sure that some problems could be solved by something as simple as knowing about some little Apple utility, downloading it, and turning off Processor Nap...

Remember, we're dealing with FireWire here. Some camcorders just flat out won't work with some FireWire chip sets that work perfectly well with hard drives and other devices. Maybe it's a chip set thing. Maybe, like the problem I had with the Inspire, it's a graphics card thing. Who knows?

The fact that people are satisfied means that something CAN work. The goal is to find out what the difference is in the context between those who are satisfied and those who aren't, which is why both sides need to be represented.

<<Fine. But why not give the participants in your own forum the same face value acceptance?>>

Have I ever said anything that even remotely questioned the negative experiences of others? Just because I had a positive experience simply means that whatever was "wrong" with the others was "right" with me. The reason why I mentioned the ADK because it really does seem extremely happy about working with things. I'm not suggested everyone should go out and buy an ADK to see if their problems get solved, but it would be helpful to know if they're doing anything different.

<<You could just as easily be skeptical of materials provided by a company interested in selling stuff.>>

Yes, but I'm much less skeptical of a company that allows the kind of stuff that's posted on their forums to be posted, and in fact sends people over to these Pro Review threads., which they know has a mix of positive and negative comments They also freely acknowledge that people have encountered problems, so they just don't seem like the kind of company that's trying to hide stuff.

<< Instead, you’re skeptical of thread participants, squashing a majority of them into an overal "minority". >>

Again...have I ever said anything that even remotely questioned the negative experiences of others? I have no doubt they're real, and in particular, it seems like d.gauss had just about everything go wrong that could. But taking everything into account, and I described my approach to determining that in the previous post, it still seems to me that those having deal-breaker problems are a smaller subset of the universe of 400F users. That doesn't make the people who participated in the 400F thread insignificant; but it doesn't make them the majority, either.

[Anderton]

But really...don't these posts belong in the 400F thread, which is still open and available for posting? After all, the Satellite is a third generation product, has a different chip set, serves a different purpose, and should be evaluated on its own merits. Maybe I should just move the 400F threads to the 400F forum and that particular discussion can be continued there...?

Just because someone doesn't like the 400F doesn't mean the Satellite sucks. But the other side of the coin is just because someone loves their Mackie mixer doesn't mean the Satellite is any good! It needs to be evaluated on its own merits. It's great having someone as thorough as Mike being so involved in the thread, and as more Satellites get out into the world, I'm sure we'll be hearing more Satellite-specific comments.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
[B]But really...don't these posts belong in the 400F thread, which is still open and available for posting?

Maybe I should just move the 400F threads to the 400F forum and that particular discussion can be continued there...?/B]Please do. And you can move the posts about how the Pro Review things works to a general Pro Review discussion.

Do the moderator thing before someone who comes in late thinks that the Satellite has the same problems the Britney has with his 400F.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Brittanylips
As for Mike Rivers, he makes no bones of his history with the company and appears to be on something of a Mackie crusade. So although I enjoy reading his posts and learn a lot from them, I am much more interested in what Craig has to say, and the views of regular users.I'm not sure why Woody mentioned me as a reference (I'm still waiting for my dxb ;) ) but please leave me out of your rantings. What you interpret as a "Mackie crusade" is nothing of the sort. I pass on information, I study the documentation, I make measurements and report what I find that's relevant.

I can assure you that if I had a 400F and it had all the problems you say it has, I would have been discussing them with Mackie, not just pounding the pulpit and demanding a fix. I probably would have opened it up and tried to figure out what the problem is, and if I found something that I could modify, I'd pass it along. But I give up much more easily than you do. If the horse is dead, I return it or bury it.

Your experience is a useful data point in the 400F discussion. Your continuous ranting about corporate responsibility and responsiveness belongs elsewhere. Start a new thread. Start a new forum. Start a new company.

[JAL]

One thing on how the 400f problems relate to the Satellite, or any other Mackie product, is how well Mackie does in the support department, which, of course, when things go wrong, is THE most important issue.

When things go wrong, does the company get you back on your feet swiftly, or do they put you on a merry-go-round of half-truths and empty promises?

So far, my experience has been less than stellar.

I was aware of the 3 main problems with the 400f (control room whine, phantom power whine, non multi client drivers), before I bought the 400f.

I contacted Mackie before I bought the 400f, because it wasn't clear to me that these issues were fixed, or whether they were just random or inherent. The problems had been going on for months and months, but many were apparently happy.

So Mackie told me that these problems had, in fact, been fixed months ago, that drivers were imminent, and I should go ahead and buy the 400f, and I will be one of the many happy 400f users.

Needless to say, I got a defective 400f, and while I should have bailed right then, got a replacement from the dealer , as Mackie told me to do, with the exact same problems!!

Seems odd, doesn't it, that so many with defectve units, also get a replacement that is defective, what are the odds considering most 400f users are so happy. One guy on the Mackie forum has had 4 defective units! And it can't be system related, because I believe it's been pointed out that the 400f doesn't have to be hooked up to a system to have these noise problems.

Also, Mackie has never said anything specific about the problem. Is it inherent or isn't it?

They always say something like "many users are happy". That doesn't mean anything in regard to the problems.

Other than the fix for the one whine on Macs, which doesn't help anyone on PC, I haven't found any specific info on the phantom power issue, nor has there been anything specific about the multi-client issue.

Perhaps insanely on my part, I haven't given up hope. I finally spoke to someone at Mackie who doesn't seem full of it. They were honest about the problem and seemed intent on making things right within this next week.

Luckily for me, if this fix doesn't happen, I still can return the 400f to my dealer and get my money back. Others are stuck on the merry-go-round.

P.S. This is no rant, just my experience so far, feel free to move it to the 400f thread, although I'm not sure that thread is about the 400f or Mackie anymore.

P.P.S. Also, I should point out that the phantom power whine is, in fact, on all 4 channels. Channel 4 is just much louder and more obvious.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton
I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that people have experienced problems, the 400F thread is a testimony to that. But what was particularly frustrating for me was that I couldn't duplicate the experiences so I could figure out how to solve them, which I believe is part of my role with as the "moderator" of the Pro Review. I never knew if people were having a computer issue, a something else issue, another FireWire device on the same bus issue, the phase of the moon, or all of the above. It would be possible to argue that you give a disproportionate weight to the people who experienced problems, given the universe of 400F owners.
I’m not weighting their responses, I’m just counting them, pre-weighting (like pre-fader).

I accept that there are all sorts of reasons why some of the accounts of problems may not deserve much weight. But in giving three reasons for the length of the 400f thread, you end by saying “Third, although the majority of users reported no problems, a small group experienced weird FireWire "whines" and some other issues that stubbornly resisted solutions. Oddly, this seemed to be pretty much a Mac-only phenomenon, and only certain Mac models at that.”

In fact, a majority not minority of users reported problems, and the problems were generally not mac-related. So I was baffled and responded. Probably should have kept my mouth shut.

In any case, having read your response, to be accurate, why not say something like “Although a majority of users reported problems, try as I might, I was unable to replicate them with my unit. Furthermore, I have since found a solution to the mac-related whine problem plaguing some users. And given a reported rate of return of only 1%, I don't believe the problems expressed by early adapters in that thread represent overall customer satisfaction.”
Originally posted by Anderton
Because simply posting the number doesn't explain what the problems are with people who DID/DO experience problems. Ideally, people would explain problems, and others would be able to contribute a solution. To me, THAT'S the value of a Pro Review: One complains not just for the sake of complaining, but to find a solution, which (let me reiterate) is why it was frustrating that I couldn't experience the problems people were having.
Understood. I accept that and realize that finding solutions (and having access to someone like yourself for troubleshooting) is fantastic.

At the same time, if a product engenders report after report of bliss or grief, that’s helpful information. As much as the internet attracts complainers, I find that an awful lot of times, there’s wisdom in the sheer number and diversity of actual user experiences, and there’s an awful lot of bliss reported as well.

George Petersen told me a story about how he once published an article about a product from a major manufacturer, I think it was Tascam, that was causing a lot of grief. The company complained to him, but he stood by it and in the scheme of things, even though he explained that that’s not what MIX was about, he felt compelled to do it.

It’s almost impossible to imagine that what happened in the 400f thread would repeat. But the fact that almost every participant in the thread had some problem to report is itself worth reporting. Then, however you account for that, weight it, describe it, debunk it, explain it, put it in context, (post-fader) is however you choose to do it. But IMHO there’s a value in accurately representing the fact that a majority not minority reported problems, even if that’s not what the Pro Review is about.
Originally posted by Anderton
Again...have I ever said anything that even remotely questioned the negative experiences of others?
No, never person to person. But you do not accept their overall experience as a reliable sample (and maybe you're right, post-fader). You explain, for example:

- “a Pro Review thread is definitely going to attract more people who are having problems and are in need of a solution. I experience this every day with magazines: People write when they're upset about something.”

- "Mackie told me that had less than 1% returns on the 400F and I take that statistic at face value"

- "Third, although the majority of users reported no problems"

Originally posted by Anderton
it still seems to me that those having deal-breaker problems are a smaller subset of the universe of 400F users. That doesn't make the people who participated in the 400F thread insignificant; but it doesn't make them the majority, either.
Sure - it may be true that those having deal-breaker problems are a smaller subset of the universe of 400f users. And it may be true that the people who reported problems in that thread do not represent the majority of 400f users. But in describing that thread, it is demonstrably false that the majority of users reported no problems. Most did, however you choose to interpret it.

I guess if there's one thing we can agree on, it's that if you have any extra passes to NAMM, I wont be getting any of them.
:D

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton
But really...don't these posts belong in the 400F thread, which is still open and available for posting
I thought about that but decided to respond in this thread since i was responding to something you said (and exists) in this thread.

I apologize for taking the thread off topic and hope that no one thinks my little rant has anything to do with the Satellite itself which, FWIW, looks pretty cool to me.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by MikeRivers
Your continuous ranting about corporate responsibility and responsiveness belongs elsewhere.
I do not rant about corporate responsibility or responsiveness. You're confusing me with other posters. On the few occassions that I rant, I rant about other things.

-plb

[Anderton]

I decided it was time to get away from the dock and the Mac, and take the Satellite to a new orbit: My Rain Recording laptop. So I pulled out the Satellite part, gathered up the AC adapter (the laptop has a 4-pin FireWire) and driver CD, and proceeded with Windows installation.

Now, a little background: My main laptop interface is the E-Mu 1616m, which is a nifty little guy. But when I'm doing gigs, I bring my PreSonus FireBox due to its small size and because it does all I really need it to do; the 1616m is more like having a portable recording studio.

But in writing this, I had an epiphany: I'm loathe to unplug the FireBox every time I want to use it, which kind of reinforced that the concept of being able to take the satellite away from the dock does indeed make sense if you're not lucky enough to own multiple interfaces.

[Anderton]

Here's a word of caution: Be patient. I don't know if it was just my setup or what, but there were long periods during the installation where nothing seemed to be happening.

I found this out when I ran the installer. There was an initial flurry of activity, then...nothing. I waited, and as there was no indication the installation process was continuing, I double-clicked on the setup file again. Then the screen from the first installation popped up, and soon my computer became a bunch of screens. Ooops.

I figured at that point I'd probably screwed things up, so I did a system restore and started over. This time I just let the installer do its thing. Sure enough, it went through all its steps eventually. You do have to be careful not to plug the Satellite into the FireWire port until instructed to do so, but that's about it.

Anyway, the Satellite drivers and control panel was installed. Here's what the control panel looks like.

[Anderton]

I was a little surprised that the console just gave sample rate and buffers; I expected a direct monitoring switch so I could hear the input without going through the program. The Satellite doesn't have the "from input/from DAW" switch, so you're not going to hear the input unless you boot up a program and monitor through it.

Okay, so I booted up Riffworks Standard and was able to go down to 128 samples, no problem. Riffworks reported this as a total in/latency of 5 ms, and I believe it: The delay didn't bother me at all. In fact, once I got over the "I don't hear any significant delay" reaction, I forgot I was monitoring through Riffworks. Cool.

Next up was a spin with Sonar 6 (yes, that's a 6, not a 5...more on this later). I checked the audio options, and sure enough, the Satellite drivers showed up. So I checked them, closed Sonar, rebooted with the new settings, inserted an audio track, and went for direct monitoring: Yup, worked just fine. And yes, I couldn't resist inserting the Vintage Channel Strip to see what it sounded like with guitar (and it sounds pretty good, BTW).

Only thing left to check for the evening was whether the Satellite showed up in the standard Windows sound devices setup, and it passed with flying colors there too.

[Anderton]

I don't have any mics here in my post-production/mixdown/mastering oriented studio that require +48V power (or as Mike pointed out, +34V from the Satellite). I use either dynamic mics, or condensers that already come with a power supply. But I did find that if nothing's plugged in to the inputs and you turn on the +48V switch with the instrument input selected, it sounds like a shortwave radio on acid. Switching over to the mic input cut the noise down to the point where I had to turn both the headphone volume and preamp up way high to hear anything, but this isn't really a fair test because there really should be some kind of termination plugged into the input jack. And of course, you'd have to be a little confused to be using an instrument input with phantom power...but we like to try weird things around here to see what happens :)

Anyway, it's getting late and I'll need to investigate further tomorrow. Mike, if you have a "pure" condenser mic that needs +48V, I'd be curious to see if you hear any tone or noise when the Satellite is separated from the dock and a mic is plugged into one of the mic pre ins.

I do think that a general rule of thumb applies in this situation as well: If nothing's plugged into an input, turn it down.

Oh, and one more thing before signing off. The Satellite runs extremely cool. I'm used to the FireBox, which runs pretty hot, so this came as a bit of a surprise. I wouldn't be at all worried using the Satellite in a hot ambient environment.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
Mike, if you have a "pure" condenser mic that needs +48V, I'd be curious to see if you hear any tone or noise when the Satellite is separated from the dock and a mic is plugged into one of the mic pre ins.I tried it with a KM84 and a U87, both of which supposedly want 48V, and they both worked, though I couldn't tell if they lost headroom or sensitivity running at the lower voltage. No whines, but of course with a mic plugged in rather than a silent termiantion, there was a little ambient noise. Still nothing resebling a whine.

Incidentally, I plugged in my phantom power tester - a couple of LEDs with 510 ohm resistors in series with them, which draw 5 mA each when connected to a standard phantom power source (48 V with 6.8K in series) - and it didn't light up. It seems that the phantom supply is current-limited at around 3 mA per leg, so there are surely some mics that it won't power.

[Anderton]

Thanks much for the info, Mike!

[mandoman]

Question for Mackie. Are you guys ever going to sell just the 'pod' standalone? I can see buying that for location recording. I already have a 400f at the center of my studio, so the sattelite would be redundant.

Also, the underpowered phantom power is a deal breaker for me, my mics need full 48v. Fix that and sell the pod standalone, and I'll take a look.

Mandoman

PS. Just a quick word on the 400f. I'm going on my 4th unit (1st and 2nd C/R whine, 3rd wobbly pots). Despite all that, Mackie has been good about getting me replacement units despite long turnaround times. If the 4th unit doesn't fly, I'm off to greener pasteurs...

[Dan Steinberg]

Hi there everyone, regarding the less than full 48v of phantom power that Mike measured, here's some background info on that:

-This was a design decision, which was necessary to allow the pod, or the pod + dock combo, to be powered from Firewire bus power alone. If we had put out the full 48 volts of phantom, none of the pieces would have ever been Firewire bus-powerable (is powerable a real word?)

-More importantly, you will find, in your real world experiences, that 99.9% of any mic you own, will work correctly, with the same audio specs, at this lesser amount of phantom power, as they would with a full 48 volts. We would not have implemented it this way, if it was going to have adverse effects on people's real world use with their mic collection.

In fact, I can even say that some other products we make (and many others, from many manufacturers) also have less than a full 48v of phantom power, and it is never brought up, because it usually never effects the mics that work with it or their sound quality. And that was the case here too, this issue did not come up because someone's condenser mic did not turn work right, or sound right, it came up because Mike measured it.

It's a good example of how while specs are important, they do not always tell the whole story. For the poster saying the 34v of phantom is a dealbreaker, we encourage you to try a unit from your dealer, take it home, try it with your mic collection.

Thanks!

[Dan Steinberg]

Mandoman asked "Question for Mackie. Are you guys ever going to sell just the 'pod' standalone? I can see buying that for location recording. I already have a 400f at the center of my studio, so the sattelite would be redundant.

This was not something we're currently planning, but if there was enough demand, anything is possible.

Mandoman (or anyone else who has an opinion) what is the street price you'd feel was appropriate to pay, for the satellite unit by itself? What do you think the pod alone should cost relative to other boxes like the Presonus Firebox, the Focusrite Sapphire LE, etc. And if you feel it should cost more or less than these, how come?

Keep in mind if sold, it would still be bundled with Tracktion, just like the current pod + dock combo.

Thanks!

[Anderton]

<<If we had put out the full 48 volts of phantom, none of the pieces would have ever been Firewire bus-powerable (is powerable a real word?)>>

What about using a voltage multiplier circuit (or is that what you're doing?). I realize you can't put out a lot of current with multipliers, and the switching oscillator might wreak havoc with the audio, but I'm just curious if there's a reason why a multiplier wouldn't be able to put out 48V.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg
Hi there everyone, regarding the less than full 48v of phantom power that Mike measured, here's some background info on that:

-This was a design decision, which was necessary to allow the pod, or the pod + dock combo, to be powered from Firewire bus power alone. If we had put out the full 48 volts of phantom, none of the pieces would have ever been Firewire bus-powerable (is powerable a real word?)I figued that might have been the case, and I might have even said that. However, the button says "48V." It seems that too may people think that "48V" is shorthand for "phantom power" perhaps along the same line as they think that "phase" is short for "polarity."

I looked at the specs in the manual and, by golly, it says

Phantom Power +48V +/- 20%

You (just barely) meet your own specification, ignoring the fractions, with 38V being 48V -20%. Good thing it's not +20%. IEC also specifies 10 mA available for mic powering, and the Satellite seems to be current limited at 6 mA.

I fully understand about bus powering and its limitations, but to let people believe that it meets a well documented standard because it says "48V" and then saying "well, it'll probably work with your mics so don't worry about it" is just not very good juju. You may be correct, but you're not right. In fact, I can even say that some other products we make (and many others, from many manufacturers) also have less than a full 48v of phantom power, and it is never brought up, because it usually never effects the mics that work with it or their sound quality. I have an Onyx 1220, 1620, and 1640, and an 800R. All of them supply 48V (though admittedly all are AC powered). Why should this Onxy (the Satellite) be different?this issue did not come up because someone's condenser mic did not turn work right, or sound right, it came up because Mike measured it.Mike measured it because Mike likes to know that his equipment is performing the way he expects it to. In the Goode Olde Days, I never would hav questioned it, but this issue has come up with other contemporary products. The M-Audio MicroTrack, for example puts out about 30V and it was a big deal for a lot of people. They "fixed" it with a firmware update, changing the legend on the soft button that switches phantom power on and off from "48V" to some shortened version of "phantom power." Unfortunately you can't use the same fix on the Satellite. (supply a sticker for the button? ;) )It's a good example of how while specs are important, they do not always tell the whole story.It's also a good example (with the +/-20%) of how specs can mislead those who don't read and interpret them carefully. It's also a good example of the difference between a specification and an established performance standard.

Dan, you know I like and support you guys, and I don't mean to suggest that nobody should buy a Satellite because it doesn't provide 48V phantom power. That's an individual choice based on needs. But since 48V phantom power is important for some applications, I don't think it's a good idea to hide it behind a wide tolerance (does it ever get to 58V?) and then say that it doesn't matter most of the time. Your tolerance is more correctly stated as "48V +0 -20%, but that doesn't look very good, does it?

If the actual voltage didn't matter, then the IEC standards for P48, P24, and P12 (yup, all of those voltages are covered in the standards, but not what's in between) wouldn't exist. What's the point of having industry standads if manufacturers don't comply with them?

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
What about using a voltage multiplier circuit (or is that what you're doing?). I realize you can't put out a lot of current with multipliers, and the switching oscillator might wreak havoc with the audio, but I'm just curious if there's a reason why a multiplier wouldn't be able to put out 48V. I'm pretty sure that they're using a switching DC-DC converter, and they probably chose one that was the best compromise with the amount of current that the Firewire spec allows them to draw (I don't know what that is) and the output voltage and current. Those things aren't terribly efficient, and they usually have a pretty hefty starting current. Even though once it's running it could run off the Firewire power, it might not be able to start.

Some computers, in an attempt to reduce potential damage from hot-plugging, limit the inrush current, so if its starting current exceeded that limit, it could shut the whole port down. That's what happened when I turned on the phantom power (really 48V - AHEM!!!!) in a TASCAM US-122 connected to my laptop computer. But it worked fine on the desktop computer, which obviously didn't try to protect itself (or had more guts).

So, yeah, I can understand why they designed it for a lower voltage. It's really the label and the speccification (thinking you have something that you don't) that bothers me.

[mandoman]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg
Mandoman (or anyone else who has an opinion) what is the street price you'd feel was appropriate to pay, for the satellite unit by itself? What do you think the pod alone should cost relative to other boxes like the Presonus Firebox, the Focusrite Sapphire LE, etc. And if you feel it should cost more or less than these, how come?

Keep in mind if sold, it would still be bundled with Tracktion, just like the current pod + dock combo.

Thanks! [/B]

Seeing as the pod itself is pretty stripped down (ie, only 2 inputs, no midi, no digi in, limited io) and street
with the sattelite is $400, and based on competing products, I'm thinking $179 would be a good price point. Might not be a market as you said. If you guys revamped your Spike product with the onyx pre's, that would be another nice option, although I'm not thrilled with USB for audio.

Actually, for location recording, I'd like something similar to the new Zoom H4, that can record either to DAW or direct to flash cards, but in a more professional unit with real mic pres. Now that would be something with real market potential. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Mandoman

[Anderton]

<<Seeing as the pod itself is pretty stripped down (ie, only 2 inputs, no midi, no digi in, limited io) and street
with the sattelite is $400, and based on competing products, I'm thinking $179 would be a good price point. >>

I think that's about right, puts it just a little under the Inspire. But at that price, you'd really need a little mixer applet to compensate for the lack of the source/DAW switch and provide zero latency monitoring.

[Anderton]

<<So, yeah, I can understand why they designed it for a lower voltage. It's really the label and the speccification (thinking you have something that you don't) that bothers me.>>

Agreed. I think most people would assume it was really +48V because "that's what the manual says" and "that's what the front panel says."

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Anderton
Agreed. I think most people would assume it was really +48V because "that's what the manual says" and "that's what the front panel says."

All fixed:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/OwwItHz/Satellite_P38.jpg


I did a little poking around to see what the Firewire spec for powering was. I didn't find anything really definitive, but a reasonably authoratative-sounding web site said that it could be up to 30 volts and up to 45 watts. My grant for this hasn't come through yet, so I didn't feel like sawing a Firewire cable in half so I could put a voltmeter on the wires and see what I got out of the off-the-rack Firewire card in my desktop computer, but I did note that the Satellite power supply is 12V. So clearly there's some DC-DC conversion going on in there. For whatever reason they chose it, they just chose one with an output voltage lower than 48V.

The Mackie powered mixers supplied 15V phantom power, but at least it didnt say "48V" on the switch or manual. And I just saw something on another forum about someone with a Brand B mixer that had 24V phantom power and an MXL mic. The mic didn't work with that mixer, but worked with another mixer.

Stand Up for Standards! I think I need a button that says that to wear at the AES show.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by MikeRivers
However, the button says "48V." It seems that too may people think that "48V" is shorthand for "phantom power" perhaps along the same line as they think that "phase" is short for "polarity."

I looked at the specs in the manual and, by golly, it says

Phantom Power +48V +/- 20%

You (just barely) meet your own specification, ignoring the fractions, with 38V being 48V -20%.
:D

I may be wrong about this, but I don't recall seeing "ignoring the fractions" when I read through this the other day.

If you've recently added this, I tip my hat to you, even though I preferrred it the other way. I've come to realize that this format has its own reality, sort of like the island on LOST, where "20%" is, well, a little more than 20%, and 48 = 37.5, 38, or 1,405.

A rose is a rose is a rose, +- 20%, and ignoring the fractions.

forget about legal statute that protects consumers against mislabeling, I can't imagine for the life of me someone like, I don't know, Rick Chin signing off on this one. But I appreciate your candor. Seriously!

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Brittanylips

A rose is a rose is a rose, +- 20%, and ignoring the fractions.

forget about legal statute that protects consumers against mislabeling, I can't imagine for the life of me someone like, I don't know, Rick Chin signing off on this one. But I appreciate your candor. Seriously! Well, Woody takes claim for the Satellite project, so I guess it was he who "signed off" on it.

There are plenty of products on the market that provide other than 48V for phantom powering, in fact if you count number of units in use rather than number of different makes and models, my guess is that today 48V is NOT the most common voltage. As far as legal issues go, however, I don't think you'd get very far with a class action suit that the button is labeled 48V and the voltage isn't.

A word on numbers (in science anyway): If you write a number without a decimal, and then talk about a percentage of it, you lose the right to talk about a fractional part of the percentage. You round up or down according to your preferrred rule. So 20% of 48V is correctly expressed without fractions, as 10V (9.6V rounded up to the nearest whole number).

If the specificatoin read 48.0V, then you'd gain the right to use one decimal in expressing a percentage so 20% would correctly be 9.6V.

Same goes with numerical tolerances. 48V +/-2V (which is how the current IEC standard reads) is correct, but 48V +/- 9.6V is incorrect.

I did try the Satellite with my Neumann KM84 and I got sound out of it, however I was just talking into it at a normal level. Since the KM84 uses the phantom supply voltage to polarize the capsule directly (there's no DC-DC converter in there to boost it up to a more typical 60V) I would expect that at high SPL, the mic would crap out sooner with 38V powering than at 48V.

[Jbroad572]

Originally posted by Anderton
I decided it was time to get away from the dock and the Mac, and take the Satellite to a new orbit: My Rain Recording laptop. So I pulled out the Satellite part, gathered up the AC adapter (the laptop has a 4-pin FireWire) and driver CD, and proceeded with Windows installation.

Now, a little background: My main laptop interface is the E-Mu 1616m, which is a nifty little guy. But when I'm doing gigs, I bring my PreSonus FireBox due to its small size and because it does all I really need it to do; the 1616m is more like having a portable recording studio.

But in writing this, I had an epiphany: I'm loathe to unplug the FireBox every time I want to use it, which kind of reinforced that the concept of being able to take the satellite away from the dock does indeed make sense if you're not lucky enough to own multiple interfaces.
How do you like the satellite compared to the firebox? Im considering selling my Firebox for the Satellite.

[Anderton]

<<How do you like the satellite compared to the firebox? Im considering selling my Firebox for the Satellite.>>

It's a bit of apples and oranges. The Firebox has MIDI, albeit with a breakout cable, which is essential for my live act. The Satellite is audio-only. So if you need MIDI, there's your answer.

If you're talking audio-only, the Satellite of course has the unique desktop/portable configuration, which the Firebox doesn't. I'd also say the Satellite has more "transparent" mic pres. Either one copes with guitar level inputs, so it's a wash there. I've been assured the Firebox really does put out +48V if that matters.

The Firebox is smaller, but runs hotter. I'm currently sitting in a hotel room and don't have either one directly in front of me, so I may be missing a few things, but that's it in a nutshell.

Bottom line: If you need the docking feature and a slight mic pre sound upgrade, the Satellite would be a better choice. If you need MIDI, +48V, and are willing to connect/disconnect cables, then you might as well stick with the Firebox.

[Tomeraz]

So the difference in audio quality is negligible?

I'm trying to decide between getting a Satellite and a midi-usb cable, and getting a Firebox.

The thing with the low phantom in the Satellite is a bit troubling...

I thought the audio quality differences in favor of the Satellite is substancial, but if not I guess I'm better off with the Firebox.

What do you think?

[Anderton]

<<So the difference in audio quality is negligible?>>

That depends on how you define negligible...I do feel the Satellite mic pres are better, as they sound more "defined." Are they orders of magnitude better? No.

To my ears, the line ins and instrument ins are equivalent.

Again, let me emphasize that the Mackie's "hooks" are the mic pres and the ability to separate the dock for mobile recording. The issue is whether those are important to you or not.

[barjeelik]

Hi,
With your experience now of the Mackie, which seems favourable if you are considering buying one, how would you compare it to a MOTU Ultralite?
I am buying a new audio interface for my Mac and had heard in various forums SOS etc that MOTU's reputation for stability in Mac use was good. Feature-wise either woudl suit my needs well.
Thanks

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by barjeelik
I am buying a new audio interface for my Mac and had heard in various forums SOS etc that MOTU's reputation for stability in Mac use was good. Feature-wise either woudl suit my needs well. If you trust what you read, go for the stability (which I translate to "it works for most users"). But if you want stability, my advice is to wait for something to be on the market for at least six months, Then you'll have a better picture of its performance, and if there are things that the manufacturer can fix in software, they might have been fixed.

[barjeelik]

Probably true as all manufacturers products appear to go through a stage where they have teething troubles.
I had also looked at the established MOTU Traveler and 828MK II but finances mean that these are beyond consideration unless I purchase from the States via ebay. I am somewhat loathe to risk this and know of friends who came unstuck buying guitars this way and had to pay import duty, which on top of postage meant they effectively stood still price-wise.

[Neverthere]

Is there a way to input another preamp? I know the onyx pre's are good but I like variety. Also, about the a/d d/a, are they the same as the F series? Thanks.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by Neverthere
Is there a way to input another preamp? It has line inputs, or if you're a real purist, halfway, you can use the unbalanced Insert Return.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Well, my Onyx Satellite arrived today - or at least I think it arrived today. The delivery person left it around back, inside the side gate. If I hadn't been wandering around back there while on a phone call (cementing an album production deal with a band :thu: ), I might not have noticed it for a few days.

I'll be unboxing it and installing it sometime tomorrow, and will start with my comments and thoughts soon thereafter. :wave:

[Anderton]

Great Phil, additional comments will be most welcome!

[Anderton]

Update: I tried the Onyx Satellite (pod only) with the Rain Recording Event computer, which uses Intel Core Duo. No problem at all running at 128 samples (!), and no whine, no weirdness. Just for kicks I loaded Guitar Rig into the Event, and used it in standalone mode. There's no question in my mind that 128 samples of latency is simply not an issue for playing amp sims. It felt like real time.

Hey, isn't that a Foreigner song? "Feels like the real time..."

[James Woodburn]

Hi Craig - I have a quick update regarding the buffer settings... we are actaully in testing with a new high performance driver for Satellite that allows ultra low buffer settings including 64 samples and possibly even lower. Depending on how the extensive testing goes, we aim to have the new driver available for release in the coming weeks.

P.S. It was great to meet you at AES - I hope you had fun for the rest of the show.

Woody.

[JAL]

Originally posted by James Woodburn
Hi Craig - I have a quick update regarding the buffer settings... we are actaully in testing with a new high performance driver for Satellite that allows ultra low buffer settings including 64 samples and possibly even lower. Depending on how the extensive testing goes, we aim to have the new driver available for release in the coming weeks.

P.S. It was great to meet you at AES - I hope you had fun for the rest of the show.

Woody.

I think that's fabulous that you guys are working on a new high performance driver for the Satellite.

I also think it's fabulous that you are willing to share that info here on Harmony Central.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there are customers on the Mackie board wondering about drivers for the 400f.

Not high performance ones. Just normal ones that work properly.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Well, so as to not have it influence me in any way, I'm not going to read the rest of the thread right away, and just post my impressions as I go along. So please excuse any duplication or redundancy. After I get a few posts up on the Satellite, then I'll go back and read the thread and comment on anything I might have missed that feel I can add to the discussion on.

My wife is a really good singer with a lot of live and studio experience (she got signed to RCA when she was 17... for the sake of my physical well-being, I'm not going to mention what year that was ;) ), and also pretty decent piano player, but she's not the most technically savvy person, and is still fairly new to computers. But she wanted to be able to do some songwriting demos at home, and eventually I'm going to need a mobile system occasionally, so enter the Satellite...

I opened the Onyx box, and was first surprised by the main docking station's size and heft. It's bigger than I thought it would be from the pictures I had seen, and there's a lot more I/O on the main unit than I was expecting. I think that's going to come in handy, because I've got a Kurzweil SP88x, a Alesis SR-16, a Roland JV-30, powered monitors and a mic to hook up for my wife's mini-studio...

Installation went very smoothly once I got the PC situation in order.
I'm installing this on my wife's computer - an Athlon XP 2600 based PC running Windows XP SP2 - but it lacked a firewire interface, so I had to run to the store and get her a PCI firewire card. Since it was all they had, I got a Belkin with a TI (Texas Instruments) chipset. I don't know how widely Mackie have tested their interfaces with various firewire chipsets, but I have had problems in the past with other interfaces from other companies if the chipsets were not just so, so I add that in the interests of reporting on compatability - the TI chipset firewire card seems to be working fine with the Onyx Satellite.

Installing the software was easy. The only thing that you need to remember is to not connect the interface to your computer via the firewire cable until told to do so by the onscreen prompts. After you get the drivers installed, you can install the Mackie Tracktion 2 DAW software, which also went smoothly. I had a brief moment of panic wondering where the heck the serial numer for the software was until I noticed it on the back of the CD sleeve. :o When you get the software installed, it asks you if you want to boot the program... hit "yes", and it opens up, but in demo mode. A prompt asks you if you wish to register or continue in demo mode. If you select the "register" option, a screen opens up and asks for your email address, a password and your Tracktion serial number. You enter all that in and hit okay, and it automatically (and invisibally) goes to Mackie's site, creates an account, registers you and unlocks the software. It was seriously about as easy and hassle free of a registration as I've ever seen.

I'll get into sonic impressions, features and other things in my next posts, but a few more comments to finish up this first post...

The manual is excellent, and in traditional Mackie fashon, is full of lots of useful little extra details, tips and odd bits of Mackiod humor. It's been a while since I've had to dig into a Mackie manual, and I had forgotten just how good they are at doing them... but they really deserve props for their well written and smartly organized (and quite funny) manuals. Some manuals out there are horrible, but Mackie gets a gold star to take home to Mom for theirs. Kudos folks. :thu:

My initial looks at the Tracktion software are pretty favorable too. Since my wife is new to self-recording, I wanted something that would be as easy as possible for her to use. Sure, I could just have her come to our full blown studio and track things there, but we wanted something she could use on her own... and with her limited computer and (self) recording experience, she's either going to need a lot of "hand holding" from me, and / or really easy to use software. The Tracktion software has pop up help "bubbles" (which you can disable easily after you get up to speed), and they are some of the better ones I've seen... they clearly describe what all the on-screen elements do in a very easily understood manner - all you have to do is hover the mouse cursor over an on-screen icon or button and up pops a bubble with a description of what it is and how to use it. Again, I think that's going to come in really handy for Sandy (my wife).

So far, so good. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some more playing do do... ;) I'll be back with more later. :wave:

[Dylan Walters]

Greetings fellow forumites! I just returned from a two-week business trip traveling across Northeastern Canada where I performed several network/computer upgrades for a client of mine. I was more than happy to see that my demo Mackie Onyx Satellite recording interface was waiting for me upon my arrival! Now that I’m back I am planning on putting the Onyx through some testing with my new HP/Compaq nc6400 Intel Centrino Duo notebook and a Mac Mini Intel Core 2 Duo desktop.

For those of you that know me you might be surprised to hear that I am using a Mac Mini, as I am a die-hard PC user. The reason for choosing the Mac Mini was simple. First, the new Intel Mac’s allow the use of Windows XP using Apple’s Boot Camp. I have a substantial investment in Windows applications including Sonar, Vegas, ACID, and Sound Forge, and the last thing I want to do is have to shell out money on a new platform. The second factor is that I recently downsized my rig in order to accommodate for a move into a small condo where space is now a factor.

The Mac Mini has a built-in Firewire port where the HP notebook does not. Therefore, a PCMCIA Firework adapter is going to be required to get the Mackie up and running on the laptop. Using the supplied driver and application CD I was able to get the Onyx up and running in less than five minutes under Windows XP on the Mini. Like most Mackie documentation, the driver install was written with some humor and with crystal clear instructions. What a concept!

The Onxy control panel is simple and is used for setting the sample rate and latency. I decided to set this to 128 buffers and 44.1k. Next, I fired up Vegas 6 and armed a few tracks, plugged in my stereo guitar preamp, and enabled on input monitoring on two mono tracks. The audio recorded perfectly with no glitches, hiccups, or whining exhibited. The latency was barely noticeable and comparable to other audio interfaces that I’ve used with the same buffer size.

I plan on importing some old projects into Vegas over the next few days to test the Onyx with a high track count. Also, I’ll be picking up the PCMCIA Firework adapter to use with my notebook at my band’s rehearsal this weekend. So far I’m impressed with the audio quality, ease of operation, and performance of the Onxy. Stay tuned!

[nollie]

Originally posted by Anderton
There's no question in my mind that 128 samples of latency is simply not an issue for playing amp sims. It felt like real time.

128 Samples at 44.1 kHz equates to roughly 3 ms... which in turn equates to the time it takes sound to travel about 3 ft thru air. So if you're wearing headphones, it's like you're standing with your ear 3 ft from your (virtual) amp.

(I just got my Satellite from Mackie a couple days ago but haven't had a chance to open it yet.)

Andy Hong (Tape Op Gear Geek), visiting from a Tape Op Satellite thread (http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=39079&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=). (Hi Craig!!!)

[Anderton]

Andy!! Great to see you here!!

(Hey, as an aside, I just finished editing an interview with Larry Crane that will be posted as part of our AES coverage. If you're not careful, I just may corner you at NAMM for something similar...resistance is futile...)

Reading the Tape Op forum thread, I got the sense that a lot of people thought "solution in search of a problem." That's true if you don't have the problem it solves :) But for those who "cross over" between home and remote recording, the Satellit is indeed a solution. Although it's a temptation to relegate the Satellite to "beginners who need two interfaces but can only afford one," the mic pres are up there with things like the E-mu XXXXm series devices, and put the Satellite into the "serious" realm.

Anyway, I'm rambling...but great to see you here. Don't be a stranger!

[parkleyroy]

ok... so if i'm using cubase sx3

So the only way i can have real-time direct monitoring is by enabling monitoring in which for me sound like a doubled delay

Why can't we just hear have a third option on the source switch.. both...

so the vocalist can hear what their singing and hear the playback mix as well????

[Anderton]

What would solve that is a small mixer applet so you could monitor both the DAW output and the inputs by turning up the appropriate faders.

[parkleyroy]

Originally posted by Anderton
What would solve that is a small mixer applet so you could monitor both the DAW output and the inputs by turning up the appropriate faders.

is that something that would be available? or would this be something i would dream of in a perfect world???

[Anderton]

<<is that something that would be available? or would this be something i would dream of in a perfect world???>>

Well, lots of other products have similar applets, so it's obviously not impossible. I guess it's just a matter of whether a) enough people request it, and b) Mackie thinks it's worth doing.

[parkleyroy]

so the real question is.. should i take it back... since i am still within 30 days... and get something else...

i hate the fact that "The cables need to cross" line input 1 on channels 1 and 2, just to get stereo... but maybe i am used to dealing with a plugging into "11/12" = one slider on my old mixer.. which is essentially the same thing...

The no midi i can live without since i have a old skool midiman that will get the job done...lol

but then again i dunno... it is what it is...

[drewdavid]

To Dan, CHUD stands for Computer Hardware Understanding Development (at least, that's what it says on the developer.apple.com website).

To Anderton, I have a dual G5 and experienced the same whine with my FireBox, and like you, came across the CHUD tools which solved the problem. But, I also discovered an Applescript which can be downloaded and dropped into your Startup Items folder which will automatically uncheck the "Allow Nap" option to prevent the second CPU from idling:

http://www.cubeowner.com/kbase_2/file_d.php?id=60

(I came across this link on a Digidesign forum (http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=177661) during my search for a cure).


Originally posted by Anderton
One caution is that when you uncheck "Allow Nap," it doesn't appear to "stick" -- you need to uncheck it every time you fire up your Mac.
Originally posted by Dan Steinberg
Now then, since some of you guys must have grown up along with me in the eighties and it's great B movies, who can be the first to tell us what C.H.U.D. really stands for?

[Dylan Walters]

Update:

I recently added a PCMCIA Firewire card to my HP Centrino Duo laptop so I could test the Onyx in a mobile environment. The HP card is using a generic VIA OHCI Firewire chipset, which I have good success with in the past when using a Yamaha mLAN interface. The driver for this is built-in to Windows and is not available as a separate download. I checked my system resources and the FW card is sharing an IRQ with the USB and Media Card controllers. I decided to keep everything enabled just to see if these devices would play nicely together.

The Onyx driver installed without a hitch just like my desktop system. Next, I installed Traction and fired up the sample song. The ASIO buffer was set to the maximum size by default, and yet, the song played back with some crackles, pops, and skipping. I remembered reading about a Microsoft Hotfix for Firewire devices when used with Service Pack 2, so I jumped on the Microsoft Support where I found the KB article that describes this. The link for this hotfix is: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222/en-us. I installed the patch, rebooted, and viola! The song now played back without any problems. Needless to say, if you run XP with Service Pack 2 you will definitely want to have this hotfix installed.

Next, I setup a fresh install of Vegas Video 6.0d on the laptop and loaded up some projects that I have previously made. I then set the ASIO buffer size down to 128 samples for the lowest latency possible. To my surprise, the song played back without a hitch! Normally I wouldn’t set my buffers so low unless I was recording with software input monitoring enabled, but I wanted to see how well the system could handle this setting. Keep in mind that this laptop is not setup with all of the normal tweaks that I would apply to my production workstations. In fact, I am only using the internal 5400 RPM hard drive at the moment.

I wanted to add some new guitar parts to one of these songs, so I pulled out my trusty Fender Telecaster and plugged into one of the instrument preamps. I’m not usually a big fan of the sound of recording guitars direct. I find the sound to be dull, flat, lifeless, and one-dimensional. The instrument preamps of the Onyx, however, sounded fantastic with my Tele! Mackie is known for their microphone preamps, so it should be no surprise that they can design a nice instrument preamp as well. The sound still had ‘direct’ qualities to it, but after adding a small amount of EQ, compression and reverb I was completely satisfied with the sound.

Next, I’ll be testing the instrument preamp out with my other guitars and bass…..

[Anderton]

Wow, this is great: A useful Apple fix and a useful Windows fix within two posts of each other! Thanks very much guys.

BTW an observation about Teles and recording direct: Using a Tele is what got me turned on to use direct inputs. The Tele pickups, being single coil, are more affected by lower input impedances than humbuckers. The first time I heard my Tele recording direct through a quality pre with a high input impedance was a revelation.

[parkleyroy]

is it me or have anyone noticed if... you have your speakers/monitors plugged in but turned off and your headphones plugged in...then you are only getting a mono signal in the headphones until you cut your monitors on????

[parkleyroy]

Originally posted by parkleyroy
is it me or have anyone noticed if... you have your speakers/monitors plugged in but turned off and your headphones plugged in...then you are only getting a mono signal in the headphones until you cut your monitors on????

it wasn't the monitors.. it was the send & return if you have a something plugged into the send & return.. it has to have a signal in order for the input channel to be active...

hmm i guess it isn't so bad after all...lol

[MHD]

I have a PowerBook G4 and a new MacBook Pro 15" w/2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

The Onyx can't make it off the ground with bus power from the new Macintel. The G4 works like a champ.

*** updated: This occurs when trying to power the pod and dock. I'm listening to the pod by itself on bus power right now and everything seems to be working OK - it seems the whole kit is a bit too much for the bus

I had the same problem with a PreSonus FireBox this new Satellite is replacing.

Sad to say that I won't be compromising on this issue so the new MacBook Pro (bought Friday night) goes back tomorrow AM and I have to figure out what to do next.

*** updated: Now I'm thinking about compromising on it because it would be fine to have the dock always plugged in to AC (possibly preferable). As long as I can power the pod from the bus my field recording needs should be met... what to do???

Anyway, when the firewire bus power issue gets figured out the new MacBook Pro will be the ultimate portable DAW, but until then...

Cheers,

MHD

BTW - Maybe, if I have time, I will bring the Onyx to the Apple store with me and check out the other new macbooks as well. I'll post the results if I do...

[Anderton]

<<Maybe, if I have time, I will bring the Onyx to the Apple store with me and check out the other new macbooks as well. I'll post the results if I do...>>

Please do!! That would be very interesting.

[MHD]

Originally posted by Anderton
<<Maybe, if I have time, I will bring the Onyx to the Apple store with me and check out the other new macbooks as well. I'll post the results if I do...>>

Please do!! That would be very interesting.

OK. I spent some time with the good folks at The Apple Store - Stonestown Mall, San Francisco, CA. I brought along both the Onyx Satellite (dock and pod) and the Presonus FireBox.

We tested several machines and the results are as follows:

1) None of the new MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) machines would power the complete Onyx rig (pod+dock) or the Presonus FireBox.

2) The new MacBooks (Core 2 Duo) were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

3) The "older" MacBook Pros were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

So, it was with a disappointed sigh on both sides that they helped me return my new MacBook Pro.

The guys at The Apple Store are going to escalate this through their management channels and I have shared this forum/thread with Willis at The Apple Store to make sure Apple has the opportunity to post an official response if they so choose.

Best regards,

MHD

[Anderton]

Good job, MHD. Thanks!

[freekquency23]

I just bought an Onyx Satellite and a new Core 2 Duo macbook pro and used them both to perform live this weekend at a gig. I was very dissapointed that I could not get a cue out of live using just the pod piece of the satellite. I actually had to hook up the entire studio for Live to give a seperate Cue channel with this interface. And as MHD pointed out, to do this you lose the ability to bus power the entire satellite rig so I had to find a power supply in the middle of the show. Well, thats Apple's screw up, not mackie's, but I would still like to ask if anyone knows if this could be fixed with a firmware or OS upgrade or if this is a hardware issue?

Also, is there something Im missing? Can I have both stereo main out and a cue out (headphones) as seperate channels in Live with just the satellite pod?

[ayc6]

Really enjoyed reading this thread, thanks!

For us PC laptop users out there, is there a chance of comparing the sound quality of the emu 1616m and the Onyx? It would be interesting to compare the mic pres and convertors (the 1616m appears to have better spec? also apparently the 1616m mic pres are better than the 1820m pres). I've also looked into the new TC Konnekt.

I record a lot of live acoustic instruments and vocals through an old Digigram V2 card/M-Audio DMP3 on my laptop, and I'm not sure if I want to stay on cardbus or go firewire. I find my Digigram V2/Dmp3 combo to be thin and lacking in character compared to recordings I did on my friend's Protools rig. Also it's unclear to me if cardbus eats up less cpu than firewire. At the moment if I go for the Onyx it would purely because of the supposedly "better" preamps (sadly I have no way of testing myself...), but the 1616m is obviously more portable.

Thanks in advance!

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by ayc6
I find my Digigram V2/Dmp3 combo to be thin and lacking in character compared to recordings I did on my friend's Protools rig.

At the moment if I go for the Onyx it would purely because of the supposedly "better" preamps (sadly I have no way of testing myself...), but the 1616m is obviously more portable. The Digigram VX Pocket is a good A/D converter. I have one myself. Your problem is most likely with the M-Audio preamp. (unless yor friend with the ProTools rig has better mics, a better room, or more experience than you have).

I don't let specs and measurements be my guide unless there's something really wrong, but for what it's worth, everything on my VX card measures better than the Satellite with the RightMark analyzer program. The noise (which is really insignificant on both) is several dB lower on the VX, and IMD is a little lower.

I can't address how much difference there is in terms of CPU resources between the PCMCIA card (which is really a PCI bus) and the Frirewire interface, but when it comes to two channel recording, it really isn't going to make any significant difference.

I'd suggest that you keep the Digigram card and buy a Mackie Onyx 1220. It will give you more inputs than the Satellite, make setting up monitoring easier, and the preamps provide full 48V phantom power (unlike the Satellite) should you need it.

Sure, it'll cost you more money than a Satellite, but you'll have a much more flexible system which you will probably find worth while sooner than later.

I would NOT recommend the Onyx Firewire option to you unless you really give it a lot of thought and study. It's a great setup for reocrding a live show where you're running the PA from the Onyx mixer, but it can be a really awkward operation if you're doing studio-like tracking.

[ayc6]

The digigram v2's signal to noise ratio is much lower than the onyx and emu 1616m (by 26db!) though, wouldn't that be noticeable?

Digigram v2 -

Signal to noise ratio (unweighted) >94 dB
Distortion + noise at 1 kHz (record + play) <-89 dB (0.00)

My friend just had the normal protools rig with no special boutique converters and i think the mic pres were mid-class aphex or possibly mackie ones. He may have recorded at 96khz though. I can't go above 48 with the Digigram...

[prophead]

Thought I'd add my two cents on the Satellite.

First off, it seemed like the answer to my prayers: a high quality interface that I could record voice overs and stereo natural sounds for video and monitor surround mixes back at my 'studio' - i.e. that stack of equipment next to my Dual G5 and HDV camera. I certainly bought into the value of the Onyx pre-amps, Mackie name, etc.

My needs are a bit different than the musicians on this board. Latency isn't as much of a problem for example. But one thing is clearly required - clean sound. Unfortunately the Onyx Satellite didn't deliver.

I need phantom power for my mics and the Satellite had a high pitched whine whenever the phantom power was turned on. With the phantom power off the unit was silent. This problem was evident even with the unit disconnected from the computer and the mic and when bus or adaptor powered.

I took it back to Guitar Center and tested a couple other Satellites - same problem. (BTW - Mike at Guitar Center in Villa Park, IL was great.)

So while I really wanted this thing to work, it went back and I'm now using a Presonus Firebox (and it's silent phantom power...).

Bummer.

[MikeRivers]

Originally posted by ayc6
The digigram v2's signal to noise ratio is much lower than the onyx and emu 1616m (by 26db!) though, wouldn't that be noticeable? You could MAKE it noticable by recording 60 dB too low, but you don't have to do that. ;)

The difference between 96 kHz and 48 kHz recording is that if there's anything about 22 kHz going in that you can actually reproduce, you'll hear it (if you can hear it). It doesn't do anything in terms of improving noise and distortion performance. There are some internal processes (some plug-ins, for instance) that work better on a 96 kHz file but this is a pretty tweaky thing. Any difference between 96K and 48K will be very small if at all noticable.

[Fulcra]

Originally posted by MHD
OK. I spent some time with the good folks at The Apple Store - Stonestown Mall, San Francisco, CA. I brought along both the Onyx Satellite (dock and pod) and the Presonus FireBox.

They should by now be telling people this:

(this is reportet back Aug. 31, 2006)

17" Macbook only produces 7 watts. The 15.4" does not have this problem (and gives 13 watts).

So I guess the the bigger 17" screen draws the power from the FireWire bus

Read more about it here (http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/macbookpro/topic2004.html) .

[the jynx]

hello, just picked one up yesterday. Im using this with XP sp2. When i turn the control room volume down all the way i can still hear sound, from the apps, coming out at low levels (when monitoring the DAW) to outputs a/b and the headphones. I tried both a/b outputs to my monitors aswell as multiple audio programs, logic audio, winamp, and windows media player. Just upgraded from the m-audio firewire 410 from which i had no problems of the sort. i thought maybe the knob was put on weird but there is no adjusting it past the markers. In fact the lowest volume that i could achieve actually raised for a brief period of time when trying to get to zero repeatedly. I must admit that i did have the unit accidentally plugged in and turned on before running the installer, it still completed successfully. I did uninstall/reinstall the correct way just make sure (hope i didnt mess with anything). Anyways, i tried both the firewire port on my motherboard (D865PERL) and a PCI texas instruments card and got the same thing. Any help would be most appreciated.

oh and BTW. Sonically, this thing is far superior obviously to the firewire 410 but also to the Motu 896 that i use. Our 1220 mixer is what inspired me to get this sound out of my interface, and it did not disappoint. Very clean and clear. This little thing is quite a bargain for the quality and features you get. Perfecto

thanks much
jynx


:EDIT: Just read the part about zeroing the controls, it didnt fix it

[the jynx]

when i switch the control panel to 44.1k a nice high frequency hiss comes out of my monitors, which are hooked into the "a" set, and nowhere else. when i switch it to 48k it goes away.... does it have anything to do with me installing improperly?? can i reverse this? I hope it is just a driver problem... it doesnt seem to be going in or out of logic so its not really effecting the signal path, but it is very annoying.


again

Windows XP Pro SP2

Intel D865PERL, 3 GHz prescott, 768mb ram

if there is anything you want me to try i am more than welcome to be a guiney pig.

thanks
jynx

[the jynx]

is this not the right place on these boards? or should i go to mackie support i guess..

[freekquency23]

On the issue of Firewire bus power, The macbook pro Core 2 duo notebooks will power both the mackie (base + pod) rig and the presonus firepod from bus power if the units were started up with power cord in. The macbook pro will not provide enough power to start the units, but once started they can be unplugged and run from the bus.

Still inconvenient. But it was a design decision Apple made in order to provide both firewire 400 and 800 on the new macbook pros.

The pod (satellite) can be started up with only bus power so I guess thats something.

[Anderton]

<<when i switch the control panel to 44.1k a nice high frequency hiss comes out of my monitors, which are hooked into the "a" set, and nowhere else. when i switch it to 48k it goes away.... does it have anything to do with me installing improperly??>>

With any interface I've used, changing sample rates while the host is running is asking for trouble. Close the host, change the sample rate, re-open the host and all should be well.

[the jynx]

thanks for the reply. There are no apps running while the hiss is going. Curiously, the hiss occurs when i switch it to 44.1 or 88.2. Not on 48k or 96k. I am only in the utility when trying this. This is Sattelite specific too, i have been working with the Motu 896 and Firewire 410 on this same exact setup with no problems of this sort. oh, and the volume still wont turn all the way down... I guess i am off to the store to exchange for a new one.

[Dylan Walters]

FWIW, I had the exact same Intel motherboard as you previously and had nothing but problems with the on-board Firewire controller. I was testing a Yamaha mLAN audio device and the drivers would not install under circumstance with the firewire controller. As soon as I added a 3rd party VIA FW Card the drivers would install, but the audio interface wouldn't initialize. I moved the mLAN device and FW card over to a different motherboard (Nvidia Chipset) and everything worked great. Normally Intel boards are rock-solid and this board was with every PCI and USB audio interface that I used. I wouldn't be surprised if there is something funky with this board in regards to FW support.


Originally posted by the jynx
when i switch the control panel to 44.1k a nice high frequency hiss comes out of my monitors, which are hooked into the "a" set, and nowhere else. when i switch it to 48k it goes away.... does it have anything to do with me installing improperly?? can i reverse this? I hope it is just a driver problem... it doesnt seem to be going in or out of logic so its not really effecting the signal path, but it is very annoying.


again

Windows XP Pro SP2

Intel D865PERL, 3 GHz prescott, 768mb ram

if there is anything you want me to try i am more than welcome to be a guiney pig.

thanks
jynx

[the jynx]

well, its either the mackie harware or the mackie drivers....I tried a fresh install on my second pc, same thing. its gotta go.....

[the jynx]

nice support here in the us....I have tried three diff days and sat on hold for 45 min each time eventually hanging up......garbage

[MikeRivers]

In Craig's official published review of the Satellite (EQ January 2007) he mentioned that "by the time you read this" Mackie would have a firmware update which would allow mixing the input source and DAW playback with the switch in the DAW position. This sounds like a good idea, in fact something I may have mentioned in this Pro Rreview thread.

Well, I read it. Where's the update? Also mentioned was a high performance driver with latency that could be set to 64 samplees or fewer (just like the CEntrance driver . . . hmmmm).

Tap tap, tap . . . . .

[MikeRivers]

I just discovered something curious today when trying to re-create the whine when docked and using phantom power. I know I heard it back when I was playing with the Satellite and looking for trouble, but I couldn't get it to make the noise again.

Anyway, I was recording with the mic inputs terminated with 150 ohm resistors inside XLRs, and was watching the meters indicate around -85 dBFS, which jumped up a couple of dB when I engaged phantom power, but I couldn't pull a pitch out of it, just a bit more random noise.

Anyway, I coughed (cold season, you know) and I saw the meters jump up to around -60 dBFS. Tried it again and they did it again. So I started yelling at the Satellite, and sure enough, when playing back the recording (with about 60 dB of gain added) I could hear the coughs and a really crappy recording of my voice.

The talkback volume control was all the way down, but I suspect that even without the button pressed, it's not as "off" as it should be. D%&*@! digital controls!

[AlexHall74]

The whine is gone!

I downloaded the "CHUD" utility from Apple and unchecked "processor nap" like Craig suggested, and bam, no more whine. In fact, I can "toggle" the whine on and off with that checkbox. I think I'll choose....no whine.

Craig, you are officially my hero. I will be sending a copy of this file to the tech support folks, and having them post this solution on our forum, as well as using it to help out anyone who calls up.

Now then, since some of you guys must have grown up along with me in the eighties and it's great B movies, who can be the first to tell us what C.H.U.D. really stands for?

C.H.U.D. = Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller

I saw that movie at the local video rental store 1,000 times when I was a kid and will never forget it. Maybe I should rent the movie now, eh?

;)

Regards,

-Alex

P.S. I love my Mackie Satellite and have had no problems with it on my DAW (Dell Inspiron 9400/Intel Core Duo 1830/2 GB RAM/80 GB 7200 RPM HD/Tracktion 2.1/ Mackie Satellite/HR824s) while using plenty of VSTs and recording vox/guitars/synths.

[pigboy]

Can I 'daisy chain' the Onyx Satellite with my FW HD (assuming I'm using external power supplies).

I am running a G4 Powerbook 1.33 GHZ and Logic and looking to upgrade my Audio interface.

The Onyx Satellite is now being offered in the UK at an amazing price! £169 so if this can work daisy chained I'm up for buying.

Thanks all.

[KING David]

im going to lay this out as simple as i can. so i just drew a picture....hehe. ya see i have only tought my self what i know today. so i know very few correct wording for everything with this product, and music world in all really. but hey i have made it this far (playing by ear is what i call it) on my own. but now i am in a jam. i dont know if i have my set up right or what, but i can lay down my problems like this.

1. when we record we need to hear are vocals with the beat. why is my playback for the music, and the inputs divided with the SOURCE button?

2. why dose the manual for it, in the home recording set up show a mic pluged in #1 mic plugin, and a different mic pluged in #2 mic plugin, when #1 and #2 are not stereo? one is right and one is left.....why???

3. dose my set up look ok??? if not what do i need or need to learn???

this is a basic drawling of how it is set up.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o3/THEKINGDAVID/ruffdraftstudio.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

well i hope someone can school me,
much love,
KING David

[KING David]

if u cant see the pic just go hear
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&pop=1&indicate=1

[Lucky #9]

Don't know if this has been noted in the thread before but the Satellite's price has been dropped to $200 at Sam Ash and other places for those interested.

[Dylan Walters]

I just saw the price drop as well. Sweetwater is also giving away a free bag with the Satellite as well: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Satellite/ . This is a killer price!

[Dylan Walters]

BTW, I've had a lot more time over the past few months to put the Onyx to the test and it's been a pleasure to use. The mic preamps are oustanding for such an inexpensive interface! I'm getting acceptable performance when I set my latency to 3ms on large projects. Hopefully when Mackie releases a new driver I might be able to get this down to 1.5ms while keeping the CPU usage down. Otherwise, it's not a show stopper for me. And Vista support would be nice as well (including a 64-bit driver).

[HWA]

I've noticed a very low level, sporadic, pinging noise from the outs of my satellite when I attach the firewire cable to the card on my laptop PC. (It sounds almost, but not quite, like the sounds a fax machine makes.) I first noticed it when I turned up the gain on a track I had recorded.

I carefully checked over every connection in my equipment, and its definitely coming from the connection between my firewire SIIG expresscard and the satellite. I've even tried it on another PC, and discovered the same problem. Its very annoying. :cry:

I talked with Kurt at Mackie for nearly an hour about the problem. He offered a number of good suggestions, and was extremely knowlegable, but he was still unable to offer any remedy. He speculated that it might be due to a grounding issue in either the computer, or the SIIG expresscard. He finally suggested that I try out the satellite on a Mac to see if the problem persists. :confused:

I'm still trying catch up with a friend of mine that has a Mac laptop. So I haven't had the chance to do that yet. In the meantime, I thought I would leave this post in case anyone else may have had a similar issue with the satellite, and could offer any suggestions. :thu:

[Anderton]

Your experience is not uncommon with FireWire devices: "Doctor, I hear this funny sound..." I found a way to tame it most of the time on the Mac, but frankly, it hasn't been as much of an issue on Windows machines.

Clearly it's something hardware related with the Firewire/interface mojo, but so far, no one has yet been able to isolate it with a definitive cause, followed by a definitive cure.

I have not experienced these problems with my Windows desktop or laptop with any Firewire interface, but did with the Mac G5.

[musikmachine]

Can i run the pod from a pcm card without the power supply?I've read that you can't on a pc in general but the blurb about the satellite says it can be bus powered and mentions nothing about platform so i hope this is the case..

Thanks.

[musikmachine]

Hello...?

[godofmetalguita]

Is there a way to use the pre's without using the converters/interface? Can they be synced with say a pro tools rig somehow (word clock? ADAT?)

[Anderton]

Just FYI -- my review unit went back a long time ago (this review is, after all, close to a year and a half old!) so I can't really provide any answers.

[Lee Flier]

I have a perfect application for the Satellite - it's working as both a control center for my editing and mixing workstation, and we use the pod and a laptop when my band does live Internet broadcasts. It works great in both applications! The preamps are really excellent sounding, and I like all the hardware and buttons - it takes a little getting used to, but I vastly prefer having real knobs and buttons to having to root around in software to route everything. Very cool.

The one issue that I've had is that installing the drivers is somewhat of a pain unless your computer is configured exactly the way it expects. I am also wondering when Mackie will have Vista drivers available? I have a new laptop which I would love to use for our broadcasts, but I can't install the Satellite as of right now because the laptop runs Vista. :( Am thinking of blowing it away and going back to XP, but I have other hardware that requires Vista... ACK.

Anyway, I'll comment more as I get to play with the thing more...

[blackmonday]

Digging up this post from the dead...

I just picked up a new in box satellite for $100 bucks from a local studio that never used it.

I hate, hate, hate the fact that mic inputs are routed hard left and right when direct monitoring. It's solved by monitoring from DAW, but it makes casual guitar/vocal practice a bigger pain than it needs to be.

Other than that, I'm loving the unit, and I'm taking a liking to tracktion. I was a little bummed that the version of tracktion they give you doesn't have the cool plugins like Amplitube LE, but I guess I can live with that.

[Crispone]

Being a guy, and a guy who knows computers well on top of that, I failed to RTFM and plugged in the Onyx before running the installation.

I'm using Sonar LE, and I can't get any sound out of the Onyx. When I fire Sonar up, it complains that "the following driver(s) are either incompatible with the current configuration or are in use by another application" (my version of the wording), and then lists the Onyx drivers. When I tell Sonar to use MME drivers, the Onyx is no longer an option.

Could my problem have been caused by plugging the Satellite in too early? I've looked in the Windows device manager for drivers to uninstall so that I can start all over, but can't find anything that seems obviously specific to the Satellite. Any advice?

[wal]

Just received my Mackie satellite system.
Fantastic build quality!
Only one problem.. I'll have to go to France to plug it in!
Wal, Manchester UK...:D

[wal]

Wrong power supply shipped with Mackie Onyx Satellite..


I just received my Mackie Onyx Satellite system from Digital Village in the UK. However the unit came with a European PSU (not UK) and a mains kettle type lead taped to the inner packaging? Which of course is not required. I used my euro to UK AC travel adapter. However, when I plugged the unit in (with satellite docked and unit turned off) there was a large flash from the rear of the unit. (Polarity protection diode no doubt..) As I am an electronics engineer I can only conclude that the supplied PSU is the wrong type. The supply has 230v Primary and 12v DC secondary 1000ma with a positive inner on the connector. The voltage I measured from the supply was 17.75v DC so I assume that it is unregulated. As there is no polarity marked on the Mackie's supply socket, my concern is that the UK distributor may have shipped many units with the wrong supply. Anyone know what the correct supply should be AC?, polarity if DC?
I also feel that I should not have to go through an internet RMA system to get a replacement. I would like to speak to someone in person and receive a replacement straight away.
Wal, Shipwreck Recording Studios, Manchester UK

I tried to contact the UK distributor/service department this morning but The service is not available until Monday! Ever had that helpless feeling?.. :mad:

[d.sydens]

Crispone, i've had the exact same problem, and here's how i fixed it:

Options>Audio>Advanced>Playback and Recording>Driver Mode:ASIO /
Share Drivers With Other Programs : Checked

Hope that's it for you problem.

[d.sydens]

Hey fellows,

Now, for my experience with the satellite, i'm very much pleased.
My rode nt1-a sounds great on the preamps , so much detail.
I've had no problems with the drivers, etc, running on a pc, with sonar, cubase, reason.
Everything it's how its supposed to be except for one -
I'm not satisfied with the levels i get during recording when using my shure sm-57.Why is the output to the software so low?
For spoken word levels, in a quiet studio, i have to turn the pre between 4-5 o'clock, almost full power, to get a signal wich reaches +- - 18 db.

I A/B tested like this - Same source, a headphone speaker, mid level, with the mic almos touching the cup.Club, compressed music playing.

With my satellite system on sonar, with the pre at exact 3 o'clock, i got to -33 db.

With my other system, mackie 1202 ms, pre at 3 oclock, fader at u, no gain,
routing to alt 3/4, into my audiophile, recording on sonar.I got to -12 db.

Am i too detailist or is i like that?Anyone with a dinamid mic had the same experience, lack of boost on the pre to record a spoken word source?
cause i don't think it would be normal to get to full pre power for that...
Of course, for my condenser it's got more than enough juice...

[mikesr1963]

:cool:

[Dylan Walters]

Am thinking of blowing it away and going back to XP, but I have other hardware that requires Vista... ACK.


Hey Lee,

I'm curious to what hardware you are using that requires Vista. I've yet to see any software or hardware that will only work on Vista and doesn't support XP. FWIW, I've been running Vista 32 on my laptop and Vista x64 on my desktop for about 7 months and so far I am really enjoy it.

[davidc2478]

Hey Dylan, I have Vista too. Do you use Asio as your driver? I'm using Asio4all because I bought my Onyx Satellite open box from Guitar Center, but I can't get my DAW to get the audio. :confused:

You guys have any Onyx tips? I'm still new to digital recording

[bobo0172]

Im new here in this is my first post so forgive me if i overstep,,

Im in need for a new firewire interface and besides the konnekt 8 and the alesis io26, the Satellite seems like a hell of a deal. Since im more into synthesizers and samples im not to much in need for preamps and sophisticated prelistening/talkback sort of functions, so will these features interfere with the legibility and workflow of the interface??

I also got some other questions

- Is the signal flow of the ins on the firewire interface (not on the dock) stuck to the the amp staging and preamps?? Or is it possible to use the ins without the preamps?

-When using the inserts, is it as easy as just pluggin in the insert on a mixing console? Or is extensive routing needed in the daw and controler software to get the sound on the right channels?

- can the controle room outs be used as separate line ouputs (5,6-7,8)? Ore are they fixed as main outputs..

- Anderton,, can you please post some pictures of the controler software of the satellite??


thanx

[bobo0172]

anyone??? bumpie bumpie

[Sausagetime]

Awright...I read this whole friggin thread. I learned that it sounds good, the 400f (whatever that is) sucks (3 pages of that) , theres anomalous whines, crosstalk and hissings and if you drop it on your foot it'll probably break all your toes.

So, bottom line. I'm buying a macbook this week and I'm looking for a $200 dollar fw interface. Since this was originally $400, thats got to account for something. What else is there at 200 bucks.....the presonus Inspire?

So, am I good to get this or is it an orphan product already? And what about these new driver they promised a year or so ago. Did they get latency down to 64 samples or less?

Ta ;)

[bobo0172]

echo audiofire 2 and 4 are also very affordable and prolly good sounding.
At least the audiofire 12 sounds just as good as RME stuff according to some guys at gearslutz

[bobo0172]

Anyway,,, since this topic is already dead, and mackie didnt update a driver in months and the price has dropped again, ill stay away from the satellite.

[vintagevibes]

:thu: I just got the Onyx Satellite and I'm very happy with it. Easy to install drivers, excellent sound and I now have an interface for my laptop. No "whine" or weirdness. The issue of no simultaneous direct input with DAW signal is being addressed with a firmware update. The MAC firmware update is already on the web and I'm waiting for the Windows version. I'm moving from a Roland VM3100 pro/RPC-1 setup because I am downsizing my studio from one that can record bands to a composer's workspace. The Onyx Satellite is perfect - wires go out the back making a neater desk and it has a smaller footprint. With good preamps, talkback and surround capabilities I'm set.

I did need more inputs for my MIDI hardware so I bought an ART PowerMIXIII 3-channel mixer for $75.

Anyone want to buy the Roland mixer?

[MacBradley]

Anyone know why the price of this unit has gone from $400 down to $200 in a little over a year. I would really like to get it because I'm just looking to mic guitars and vocals into Sonar and direct in Bass, but this price drop has me worried.

[vintagevibes]

I have to say that I missed one important aspect of this unit that is really a show stopper. It has no direct monitoring while listening to tracks on the DAW!!! So if you have a singer/acoustic guitarist performing and he wants to listen to his voice in the phones there will be a delay that will through off his timing!!! Now, Mackie has a firmware update that fixes this but the loader app is only available for MAC and people have been waiting months for a PC version and Mackie says they still have no release date for it.

My opinion of Mackie has changed!

[lhm1138]

Im new here in this is my first post so forgive me if i overstep,,

Im in need for a new firewire interface and besides the konnekt 8 and the alesis io26, the Satellite seems like a hell of a deal. Since im more into synthesizers and samples im not to much in need for preamps and sophisticated prelistening/talkback sort of functions, so will these features interfere with the legibility and workflow of the interface??


If you have no need for the mic preamps and extended feature list of the Satellite, I would go with the Echo Audiofire2. It might not seem like you're getting as much, but the headphone out can double as another stereo output if your software allows for it, and it's totally worth it for Echo's solid drivers and great support.

[vintagevibes]

If you have no need for the mic preamps and extended feature list of the Satellite, I would go with the Echo Audiofire2. It might not seem like you're getting as much, but the headphone out can double as another stereo output if your software allows for it, and it's totally worth it for Echo's solid drivers and great support.



Actually I'm pretty sure that Echo wrote the Satellite drivers.

[lhm1138]

If so, great. The drivers for their own hardware are excellent. I've seen maybe two or three people ever complain about Echo Audio cards. I've had the Indigo for awhile, first one was defective, Echo customer support were friendly and quick to get me a replacement. Worked great ever since, they even sent me another audio cable and driver disk when I sent the original unit back to them in the box with just the card.

I never get a good feeling when a soundcard has both low-cost, and comes with tons of software bonuses. Usually means, hey, the audio interface sucks, but look at all the great freebies we gave you!

[Pillimees]

Is there any way to bus-power the Satellite from a PC laptop? My HP NX6125 has both Cardbus (I and II) and Expresscard/54 slots, so I guess what I'm looking for is a Firewire controller into either of those slots. It has to be able to bus-power without an external adapter, though - otherwise I'd just be swapping the Satellite's mains adapter for the card's.
Is there anything like that out there?

[vintagevibes]

Mackie just posted the firmware update for the PC. I installed it and it worked like a charm. Now I am happy again. :)

[MacBradley]

Mackie just posted the firmware update for the PC. I installed it and it worked like a charm. Now I am happy again. :)

Great news, thanks for posting! I forgot what the fefatures would be, but I remember reading about it and knowing I needed it!

[Chris666]

Wow, this is a very long thread, especially for someone like me who isn't very firm in English.

I also got the Onyx Satellite 6 weeks ago. But I have a huge problem with the Hi-Z Instrument input: Whenever I use it together with the AC-Adapter there's a 50HZ HUM on it. When powered via Firewire the hum is gone.

I've been at an electrician with the AC Adapter, who told me, that it has 18,6 Volt instead of the 12 Volt written on the adapter (I am located in Germany, so maybe other numbers like in the US). So I exchanged my Satellite for two times now - but each piece has got the same problem.

Can anyone help me? Is this a known problem? Can anything be done to solve it?

[Pillimees]

Great news, thanks for posting! I forgot what the fefatures would be, but I remember reading about it and knowing I needed it!
You can read the release notes on the download (http://www.mackie.com/products/satellite/update.html) page.


Re my question above, I've learned that the CardBus and ExpressCard slots don't provide enough power, so Firewire bus power via those interfaces is out of the question. Damn shame, really...

Also, I noticed something nifty a while back with my Satellite, that I don't think is mentioned in the manual or this review. The control room A/B switch is both latching and momentary. Press it down about halfway past the first click, and it'll latch. Press it again and it'll return up. But press it down completely, and it acts as a momentary switch, returning when you release it. Sorry if it's been mentioned before, but I just discovered it myself, and thought it was a neat feature to share.

[GuiltySparc]

quick question,

i'm looking at picking this product up and i've only seen where people are recording their guitars/basses/etc direct.

Could i plug my JCM head into it or would that cause problems? i suppose i could mic the cab, but i'd rather use the line out on the head.

Thanks!

edit: after looking at the hookup diagram in the online manual, there isnt a picture of a guitar amp, lol. Is there a similary priced product (amp head -> interface -> computer/DAW) that will do this for me or should i just go with mic'ing the cab? And after doing a little more internet sluething it seems this might be one of those pandora's box questions (how do i make my recording sound good?). I'm not opposed to mic'ing if thats going to give the best sound, but at present i live in an apartment.

So you can guess how much my neighbors love me and the 100w JCM...i can only imagine how much their love would grow if i started spending several hours a day recording...

[vintagevibes]

quick question,

i'm looking at picking this product up and i've only seen where people are recording their guitars/basses/etc direct.

Could i plug my JCM head into it or would that cause problems? i suppose i could mic the cab, but i'd rather use the line out on the head.

Thanks!

edit: after looking at the hookup diagram in the online manual, there isnt a picture of a guitar amp, lol. Is there a similary priced product (amp head -> interface -> computer/DAW) that will do this for me or should i just go with mic'ing the cab? And after doing a little more internet sluething it seems this might be one of those pandora's box questions (how do i make my recording sound good?). I'm not opposed to mic'ing if thats going to give the best sound, but at present i live in an apartment.

So you can guess how much my neighbors love me and the 100w JCM...i can only imagine how much their love would grow if i started spending several hours a day recording...

You can plug the LINE OUT from any amp into the LINE IN on the Satellite. (you won't see a picture of a guitar amp on any of these devices). Make sure you DON'T PLUG THE SPEAKER OUT INTO THE SATELLITE.

[GuiltySparc]

You can plug the LINE OUT from any amp into the LINE IN on the Satellite. (you won't see a picture of a guitar amp on any of these devices). Make sure you DON'T PLUG THE SPEAKER OUT INTO THE SATELLITE.


Great, thanks! I think the terms in the manual were what was throwing me off. I'm not very familiar with terms like balanced vs. unbalanced line level input signals. When the manual says TRS cable, is that any old instrument cable?

Oh, and ya, i dont think i would have tried the speaker out. Something tells me that little box wouldnt handel 100w of mashall fury very well. :eek:

[GuiltySparc]

so upon further review it seems the out on the back of my JCM is a male XLR jack. I guess i would just plug that into the mic input on the satellite then?

[Pillimees]

No. The mic input goes through the mic preamp, but a line level signal might be too hot for that. Get a female XLR - male 1/4" cable and run it into the line input.


A balanced signal is one where you're sending both the original signal and its phase-reversed copy down the same cable. At the receiving end the copy is reversed again and merged with the original signal, thus cancelling out any noise picked up on the way. This is basically the same way humbuckers work (except the signals are in parallel, not in series). To do this, you need a stereo cable. This has three contacts (TRS = tip, ring, sleeve) instead of the two on regular instrument cables - one for the original signal, one for the phase-reversed copy and one for ground.

An unbalanced signal is just the original signal, without the phase-reversed copy. That's what you get when you use any old instrument cable.

If your amp has an XLR jack, the signal is probably balanced. But I believe the Mackie's line inputs accept both balanced and unbalanced signals, so you're fine either way.

[GuiltySparc]

ah ok, that clears up the gear confusion. Thanks for the help! :wave:

[miko deckert]

i have bought a laptop with vista and a onyx satallite but if i plug the firiwire cable in my laptop, the laptop doesn't see the satallite and i can't install the software. is that because of vista? or should i instal XP on my laptop?

[GuiltySparc]

i have bought a laptop with vista and a onyx satallite but if i plug the firiwire cable in my laptop, the laptop doesn't see the satallite and i can't install the software. is that because of vista? or should i instal XP on my laptop?

my understanding is it only works with XP.

[miko deckert]

after some playing with the onyx, i figured out a way to work with it on windows vista, so people: IT WORKS ON VISTA :thu: :cool: :lol: :freak:

[edeibler2000]

ah ok, that clears up the gear confusion. Thanks for the help! :wave:


Whatever you do, make sure that your amp is still hooked up to your speaker cab. If you play the amp without a proper load on the output transformer, you'll burn the transformer up. This will be a very Very expensive repair job.

eric

[GuiltySparc]

Whatever you do, make sure that your amp is still hooked up to your speaker cab. If you play the amp without a proper load on the output transformer, you'll burn the transformer up. This will be a very Very expensive repair job.

eric

really? Now what about people in studios that just run the amp heads? I'm just guessing this happens based on pictures i've seen (Satriani's home studio comes to mind) where they have a wall of amp heads without any cabs in sight.

i was really hopeing to be able to play without the speaker cab plugged in...

Would putting speaker cables into the speaker outs without a cab be an acceptable workaround?

[MacBradley]

really? Now what about people in studios that just run the amp heads? I'm just guessing this happens based on pictures i've seen (Satriani's home studio comes to mind) where they have a wall of amp heads without any cabs in sight.

Dummy Loads. They take the signal but don't have speakers therefore don't make noise.

[GuiltySparc]

Dummy Loads. They take the signal but don't have speakers therefore don't make noise.

hmm, i just looked through my manual real quick and it says i can use the output mute to do silent recording, so i'll be ok that way.

Though i have a recording date for friday and i was hoping to only bring head since hefting the 4x12 into my car by myself can be challenging.

How would i go about getting a dummy load, would plugging in the speaker cables (but with no cab) to do the job?

[MacBradley]

hmm, i just looked through my manual real quick and it says i can use the output mute to do silent recording, so i'll be ok that way.

Though i have a recording date for friday and i was hoping to only bring head since hefting the 4x12 into my car by myself can be challenging.

How would i go about getting a dummy load, would plugging in the speaker cables (but with no cab) to do the job?

No. Dummy load is an actually unit. Read on the silent record option though, and see if it will let you record with no speaker and be fine (although I doubt it).



PS: Micing up an amp right will sound 100x better than direct in, unless you have really bad acoustics in the room, then it will probably just be a bit better.

[GuiltySparc]

No. Dummy load is an actually unit. Read on the silent record option though, and see if it will let you record with no speaker and be fine (although I doubt it).

here is what the manual says, whats your take on it?

"Output Mute
By the nature of the ‘V.P.R.’ circuit, we can now turn off the signal to
the output valves. As the speaker emulating DI output is connected to
the same place, this enables the TSL to be DI’d for silent recording, yet
maintain the compression and harmonics of a push-pull valve stage."

here is the pdf http://www.marshallamps.com/downloads/files/TSL100s%20hbk.pdf

PS: Micing up an amp right will sound 100x better than direct in, unless you have really bad acoustics in the room, then it will probably just be a bit better.

word, though i am currently in an apartment and my amp sits in very tiny room, lol. So the silent recording is really the only option i have.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v434/Roush002/Apt0001.jpg

[GuiltySparc]

i also apologize for taking this thread way off topic.

[vintagevibes]

see below

[vintagevibes]

really? Now what about people in studios that just run the amp heads? I'm just guessing this happens based on pictures i've seen (Satriani's home studio comes to mind) where they have a wall of amp heads without any cabs in sight.

i was really hopeing to be able to play without the speaker cab plugged in...

Would putting speaker cables into the speaker outs without a cab be an acceptable workaround?


They are using special devices to change the power coming from the head or one of the following:

1) preamp out to the board
or
2) FX send to the board

Never plug a speaker out into a preamp in! You'll be very sorry if you do.

[GuiltySparc]

Never plug a speaker out into a preamp in! You'll be very sorry if you do.

oh no doubt, i think you may have misunderstood me. I was trying to figure out if i could run the line out to a board without having the cab hooked up also.

I did some looking around on marshall forums and the verdict is that you can run the TSL100 without a speaker cab IF you use the output mute while you do it.

Thanks for everyone's help :thu:

[jpleong]

Hi Mackie folks, I didn't see this posted here but it was posted on the Mackie forum a few weeks ago. From Ryan C (of Mackie):

"As some of you are aware, up until now Mackie has worked in partnership with select external engineering companies to bring to market our audio interface products. Whilst this has allowed us to realize a number of groundbreaking products, it has also limited our ability to react to shifting requirements such as new Operating System developments.

We are very pleased to announce the creation of an internal firmware and driver development team, here at Mackie, who will be designing and implementing our very own custom solutions to work in concert with both our existing hardware and future products.

This will allow us to both design ultra high performance drivers, that are perfectly matched to our hardware, and respond to the ever changing world of computer technology in a much more rapid fashion.

The following products are being included in an immediate Windows Vista development:

Onyx Satellite
Onyx 400F
Onyx 1200F
D2 Pro
D4 Pro
Onyx Fire wire Option Card
Digital X Bus Fire wire Option Card

These products utilize different technology implementations of the fire wire chipset and therefore support for the Vista platform will not become available all at the same time. The list above is not placed in any order of priority or expected availability. Due to the recent formation of this team, there is likely to be a significant development and testing phase and we cannot offer any timescale for availability yet – other than we are working on this as a matter of urgency. We will post details of Vista compatible drivers both to the product pages and the Forum as they become available.

For future Operating System changes – for example Apple’s Leopard OS, we ask that you do not upgrade your system until we have qualified the change with our products. We will be making regular announcements regarding compatibility as soon as we have completed our internal testing phases.

Thanks for your patience."

[GuiltySparc]

ah very cool, now if only they would upgrade ACID to work with vista...

[Markus Nunes]

OK. I spent some time with the good folks at The Apple Store - Stonestown Mall, San Francisco, CA. I brought along both the Onyx Satellite (dock and pod) and the Presonus FireBox.

We tested several machines and the results are as follows:

1) None of the new MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) machines would power the complete Onyx rig (pod+dock) or the Presonus FireBox.

2) The new MacBooks (Core 2 Duo) were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

3) The "older" MacBook Pros were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

So, it was with a disappointed sigh on both sides that they helped me return my new MacBook Pro.

The guys at The Apple Store are going to escalate this through their management channels and I have shared this forum/thread with Willis at The Apple Store to make sure Apple has the opportunity to post an official response if they so choose.

Best regards,

MHD
Hi there.
I'm a new one in this roads and i have a problem!!
I buy a onyx satellite but it does'nt work in my Mac Pro Desktop.
I asking for help to anyone who knows about a drivers to get this mackie work on my computer.
Thank you very mucht.

Markus
www.myspace.com/soundsofmynature

[godzilla1111]

Hi All,

I hope this thread is still active - it seems to have fluttered out a bit at the end.

Anyway hopefully someone here can help me. I have read the entire thread and I have a concern or two about the Satellite. First off, its a few days before Christmas and my wife and kids have bought me the MOS this year. I know this because I cut a deal with everybody in the house that if they make sure I get the MOS - then Ill make sure that they get the thing that they want. Sooooo... one Pan Tec Duo cell phone, EMG 81 and 85 humbucker pickup set and a full day pamper package at a holistic skin and body spa later, volia! I have a MOS. Unfortunately my wife won't let me hook it up until Christmas morning but I did convince here to let me inspect the item for any signs of visible damage. I have read here and on other boards that some users of mackie products get items with "wobbly knobs" - and when I inspected the MOS sure enough the pod unit has wobbly knobs - but heres the thing - how wobbly is wobbly? - the gain knob on both 1 and 2 on the pod has a slight wobble compared to the phone knobs on the pod - it doesnt feel "fiddy" or like the knob is placed wrong and the twist is very tight and feels smooth - but if i gentely move the gain knob left and right it does wobble - more like the whole knob assembly inside and outside of the pod unit has a sight wobble that the phone knobs do not have - so my concern is: Is this normal? this thread mentions wobbly knobs as one of the reasons why people might return the product - but it doesnt go into anymore detail than this. The same is true for other forums I have read. any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated.
Thx
GDZ1111

[GuiltySparc]

is it possible to monitor from my computer speakers with this interface?

I got it for christmas and it seems like whenever i select it as my audio device, it kills all the sound to my computer speakers and i can only hear using the headphone jack on the satellite. I would like to be able to hear everything through my speakers if possible, just use the satellite as an input rather than input and output.

[godzilla1111]

So I decided to re-post even though nobody responded to my concerns about the "wobbly knobs" - thanks guys!

the wobbly knobs dont seem to be a problem - this thing sounds great!
my only experience with pre amps before I got the satellite is with a behringer eurorack 1202 - (and yes - it has wobbly knobs too) - and i read so much about these satellite units being hit or miss - i really wanted to get a unit that was a hit - and i think i got one - no whine present unless i turn the headphones way up and dont have anything plugged into a hot preamp - channel - but that whine does not make it into the recording - sweet!

I am still blown away with the sound of the preamp - actually I should say "blown away by the "no-sound" of the preamp" when i recorded with the eurorack 1202 my guitars sounded like crap - raspy - thin - harsh - brittle - I would have to do serious tweaking with EQ- and other dynamic plug-ins just to get a track that was usefull - and then i would have to layer GTR tracks over each other untill they all just kinda blended into a washed out GTR track that i would say "heres where the REAL guitars would be when I get a studio" - well no more! the Onyx preamps are awesome - especially when i go direct - what ever sound i hear in my tracking headphones - the satellite is capturing flawlessly - its hard to tell the diference between the recorded direct guitar track and me playing direct through the headphones - so now I just dial up the GTR sound i want through my pedal board and push record and I got that sound on my recorded tracks - no EQ or masking plug-ins - just real guitar tone and it is awesome - anybody that is recording GTR and Bass either mic'ed or direct should buy the satellite just for the preamps - at less than $100 per channel its a steal -

so Guiltysparc..

I am having trouble with getting the satellite drivers and the M-audio 24/96 drivers to work at the same time in my Sonar DAW - I wanted to use the Satellite as my input and the 2496 as my output so I could track with the MOS and then listen to it back through the 24/96 because that is where my speakers are connected to - its a real pain in the ass to switch drivers back and forth enabel and dis able in the device manager and restart sonar everytime i want to switch outputs - so I hooked up a old stereo reciever with kick ass speakers to the outputs of the satellite and just use the A/B function on the MOS when i want to hear through speakers - I think that you will have to do something like this or just do the driver swap thing like i described above - best of luck

GDZ1111

[GuiltySparc]

thanks Zilla!

Ya, after i read through the manual again i ended up using a mini -> 1/4" adapter and plugging my computer speakers into the control room outs on the mackie and that works pretty well.

I'd like to get a set of decent monitors though, like $100 for two speakers, so i dont have to switch around the plugs for my computer speakers when i'm not using the mackie. Any suggestions?

Also, i my knobs seem pretty solid so i'm thinking your wobble might not be 'normal'.

[godzilla1111]

yo sparc-

I see that B&H Pro Audio is offering a pair of Wharfedal Diamond Pro 8.1 active monitors for $189.00 - and im thinking that you aint going to find a better deal than that - I heard a lot of good things about these units over at tweekheadz lab - they are reported to be very flat (this is a good thing) and i would recomend that if you really want to get serious about recording that you find the extra $89.00 and buy these - the computer speakers are fine if ya got nothing else - next step up would be a pair of high end stereo speakers - but still you wont be hearing what you are really sounding like - all computer speakers and car speakers and home stereo speakers are "tuned" and/or eq to sound better than they really are - so if you mix with these you wont get an accurate mix - you might have notice that your stuff sounds really good on your computer - but when you burn a CD or whatever and listen to the same stuff on your car stereo or a friends house it sound differnt - weaker -washed out - too much bass or just plain sucks - thats because you are not mixing with a flat monitor - so i would suggest that you either save up and get a pair flat active monitors (or passive ones- but this requires a amp to power the speakers - read extra $$$) - then at least get a decent pair of flat tracking headphones so you can really hear what is being laided down on you recordings - it takes awhile to get used to the flat sound - but after you get used to them - you will perfer the sound - then when you play your chops at your buddies house it will sound much better - because the "tuned" speakers on his stereo will now be flattering your sound - just like the pros. I have a pair of sennheiser hd 280 pro headphones that i would recomend as good flat tracking headphones

check out tweeks guide at tweekheadz lab (just google it) for good info on monitors vs speakers

"Zilla"

[GuiltySparc]

thanks dude, i'm using a set of klipsch 5.1 for my computer speakers but they are definitely not flat sounding. I'll take a look at tweekheadz and try to find some flat headphones as well.

Thanks for the help!

[s1rrah]

Great thread you all; thanks for the detailed comments early on in the posting.

...

I was hoping some of you might comment on the following:

I am testing various bedroom studio type recording interfaces for my PC which will also double as a critical listening device (line out to headphone amp, etc. for CD's/records). I'm currently demo'ing an EMU 0404 and sort of dig it but would like more versatility in inputs (has only two XLR's and no 1/4").

Anyway ... my recording needs are very simple: mostly singer songwriter stuff, two guitar tracks maximum with rarely more than 2 vocal tracks. I mostly record at home to capture ideas. I never record with more than one instrument or voice playing at the same time (IE > just do single track by single track layering).

How do you guys think this Mackie Satellite stacks up against the EMU 0404 (http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=15185)? How about compared to the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra-main.html)?

Another concern of mine is the ability of the headphone out to power headphones like the Sennheiser HD650, which, due to it's 300ohm rating is notoriously hard to drive, requiring some good juice to really perform. As I monitor almost exclusively through such headphones, the headphone out should be able to power these or it wouldn't work for me.

Also, how is the headphone amp in general sound quality wise? Are there details of the types of circuitry (OPAMPS, etc.) used in the headphone amp?

...

I have a thirty day window within which to return this EMU 0404 should I decide to try the Satellite.

Any comments on any of the above?

Thanks in advance!

[GuiltySparc]

/\

I can't comment on the first part of your post (havent used the other interfaces you mention) but i'm in a similar situation. I've been recording my 100w marshall in my apartment, silently, useing a pair of Sennheiser HD250 Pros as my primary monitoring device.

I'm not sure how your 650s differ, but the Mackie powers my 250s just fine. The headphone out sounds really good and can get really loud. I keep the headphone volume on the unit at about 4.

[makeluv247]

Hi

Still looking for the best buy, and this seems much more practical than the PreSonus Inspire 1394. My only problem is that my XPS 420 is a Vista machine, and even if the drivers for XP are out there for it, I'm not going back. Can anyone comment on compatibility with Vista or the future release of drivers? If not I'll have to buy something else, but this looks great. would be a shame.

Thanks

[TwistedUp]

hi guys, first of all, sorry that my english isnt perfect... im a spanish guy trying to mount his first home recording system...

oh well, i have this new onyx satellite and my brand new alesis 620 as well... installed everything, chose in my daw setting input and output the onyx, but i cant seem to have any signal from my monitors.. they just dont give any sound at all, except from a lil hum (sign its connected)...


can someone help me please...? ive tried as well some pc speakers... no sound at all :(

[TwistedUp]

ok, here are more details... the firewire led doesnt light at all, when my onyx satellite is on and the computer is on traction... however, and this is the most weird thing... on the control outputs, i get output when connecting the guitar to the input 1, but only on the left monitor! ive tried all 4 outputs and switched my monitors and it seems the right outputs of the onyx are broken...

should i trade this unit?


please someone help...

[Trace401]

Hi, My names john, I Practice Home Studio Applications at home on the weekends, i usually put my Condenser through a Beringer 808 Mixer (Ya i know.. ) and am looking to upgrade my quality via a decent Interface. My Question is, Will This device allow me to hear all the sounds from my computer and my microphone at the same time (Example. U route the mixer i have now into the line in on my onboard soundcard, and when its plugged in i hear whatever is plugged in the mixer through my computer speakers while recording or not. ) Is this possible?

[Pillimees]

Yes, it is. The Satellite base station has a Source switch that selects between DAW and inputs. The latter position will allow you to hear your input signals directly through hardware, as well as the return from your computer. I use that option routinely to play back other audio equipment (cassette player, MP3s on my work laptop etc) through the Satellite, as my speakers are hooked up to it.

Note that you might have to apply the latest firmware update (1.05.0100 as of the writing of this), as before that the inputs position only allowed input signals to come through. You can get the update here:
http://www.mackie.com/products/satellite/update.html

[Trace401]

well thanks for the quick response Its Appreciated. Its On sale for 180 at ZZounds!

[Pillimees]

You're welcome.

On a related note, it seems that when the Satellite isn't connected to a computer, input signals are sent directly to the output, regardless of the position of the Source switch. This is with the latest firmware update; I can't say if it was the case before that. Either way, neat.

[Eisco!]

Hey guys,

This interface looks pretty good, i just have a quick question about it.

I have been looking to upgrade my current firewire audio interface in my home studio, and i am looking at the Onyx 'satellite' as the two piece setup is great for someone mobile like myself.

My question is about the headphone signal. When using this live i will be sending my main signal from my laptop running ableton live to the house pa, and i would like to use the headphone output to send a metronome to a live drummer. In ableton like i have the choice to send the metronome and main mix to seperate outputs. Is this possible with the satellite pod? Even if i only use one output out the back for the pa??

Thanks

Tim

[m-prez]

I've got the satellite recently and have recorded some musical scetches with the included tracktion software.

I find the docking station to be terribly noisy, whiny, hummy.. so i don't use it anymore.. I feel that recording and monitoring via the pod gives me noiseless pristine quality. Great preamps! Too bad the docking station isn't up to par.

I haven't tried the insert points yet because i don't have any good quality insert cables. But i hope i can get the excellent quality preamped signal out of the onyx satellite and route it to a line input of another interface or mixer.

[bradleyhaug]

OK. I spent some time with the good folks at The Apple Store - Stonestown Mall, San Francisco, CA. I brought along both the Onyx Satellite (dock and pod) and the Presonus FireBox.

We tested several machines and the results are as follows:

1) None of the new MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) machines would power the complete Onyx rig (pod+dock) or the Presonus FireBox.

2) The new MacBooks (Core 2 Duo) were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

3) The "older" MacBook Pros were able to power the Onyx rig and the FireBox with no problem.

So, it was with a disappointed sigh on both sides that they helped me return my new MacBook Pro.

The guys at The Apple Store are going to escalate this through their management channels and I have shared this forum/thread with Willis at The Apple Store to make sure Apple has the opportunity to post an official response if they so choose.

Best regards,

MHD


because this post is so high on google for onyx satellite review macbook pro, I'd like to add an update:

as of today june 30th, 2008 the 17" 2.6 penryn macbook pro and the latest rev of the mackie onyx satellite (unsure where to get the rev number) work together fine. I am able to run the entire rig on firewire using battery power from the mbp under OS X version 10.5.3 with no major issues.

so either apple or mackie made some changes to their power requirements for the fw port/satellite or both did. The laptop was purchased a week ago and the mackie today directly from the warehouse.

best regards
bradley newton haug

[vintagevibes]

Hey guys,

This interface looks pretty good, i just have a quick question about it.

I have been looking to upgrade my current firewire audio interface in my home studio, and i am looking at the Onyx 'satellite' as the two piece setup is great for someone mobile like myself.

My question is about the headphone signal. When using this live i will be sending my main signal from my laptop running ableton live to the house pa, and i would like to use the headphone output to send a metronome to a live drummer. In ableton like i have the choice to send the metronome and main mix to seperate outputs. Is this possible with the satellite pod? Even if i only use one output out the back for the pa??

Thanks

Tim

Yes but not through the headphone out. You aassign the metronome to an output from within Ableton to one of the 6 (3 stereo pairs) outputs on the back of the Satellite. Then that would have to go to some sort of headphone amp. ART makes a nice small one that would work well. I'm pretty sure the headphone outs on the Satellite give all outputs summed together.

[Piccolo Solo]

Hi
Does anyone happen to know if Mackie includes some sort of unique digital signature in the satellite? I am installing a few of these in school, but it seems that only the unit that has been installed on a particular (windows) PC will work on that PC. If I connect a different unit, it is seen as new hardware by windows.
Perhaps this is standard procedure, but I just wondered if anyone had any comment.

thanks in advance
PS

[Anderton]

Peripherals are often "wedded" to a particular port; even switching to a different port on the same computer can bring up the "found new hardware" dialog. There is no digital signature I know of in the Satellite.

[Piccolo Solo]

Thanks for commenting. I understand the point about wedding to ports, particularly USB, but there is only one firewire port on each PC. The problem arises when a satellite that is different to the the one initially installed is subsequently plugged in to a PC (ie 15 PCs, 15 satellites - if the sats are unplugged and jumbled up to different pcs, they won't work)

[MikeRivers]

Thanks for commenting. I understand the point about wedding to ports, particularly USB, but there is only one firewire port on each PC. The problem arises when a satellite that is different to the the one initially installed is subsequently plugged in to a PC (ie 15 PCs, 15 satellites - if the sats are unplugged and jumbled up to different pcs, they won't work)

Does it not work after you let it do it's "new hardware" thing? It's possible that there's an electronic serial number that gets associated with the driver so that if you have two Satellites installed on the same computer, it can tell them apart. I know this is the case with the Onyx mixer Firewire card, though that's a totally different design than the Satellite.

If this is a problem for you, it might be worth asking Mackie Tech Support directly. I have only one Satellite (as probably do most users here) so I can't share in your pain.

[HypnotiXDMP]

Yes, i love the Satellite, but i have just recently upgraded to vista(again) and there are no driver yet available for vista. How ever, i can get it to record with almighty tracktion and playback on there as well. When ever i try to playback on windows media player or iTunes even, the progress bar of the media being played doesn't move at all, and when i manually move it nothing happens. So im thinking the Windows XP drivers are not very compatible with Windows Vista.

On that note, i was just wondering (more like preying) if you guys are going to put out a Windows Vista Compatible driver any time soon or even at all in that case. Im sure it wouldn't take you geniuses that long to compile a suitable driver for this wonder full Firewire Interface.

Also, i would just like to say that in the time ive owned this hardware, i have made some outstanding recordings that sound so superb next to the past (Analog) hardware put out there. Hook a UB802 up to this beasy and prepare to be in "shock" and "ah". For a little taste of what this edvice can do, visit my sound.com page at http://soundclick.com/therealhypnotix and just let us all know what you think about the sound quality!

Keep up the SO FAR good work Mackie!

[ThudMuffin]

You're welcome.

[daniellyle]

Mike or Anderton. Could one of you guys bottom line this forum for me.

I have been reading your review. Good stuff although after three years or so there seems to be a lot more info then I need so I am wondering if you could bottom line it for me. I am trying to decided if I should buy the Satellite for $150 new or a Lexicon Lambda for $115. In terms of what they do (or suppose to do) they seem very comparable. In terms of sound, construction and use which unit do you think is better? Which one is more stable? Thanks for any info.

[dinkyblack]

I am currently using this unit with a brand-spanking new Apple iMac (20" 2.4 Ghz processor, 2 GBs RAM). I have also used it with a 1.5 Ghz processor, 1 GB RAM Powerbook from 2005. I have never had a problem with the Powerbook. I have been able to use the actual "satellite" portion of the device with the iMac no problem. There was the high pitched whine mentioned by other reviewers. I'm trying the "turn of hard disk sleep" option mentioned by said reviewers. However, I've had no luck with the base station portion of the Mackie. The input lights for channels 1 and 2 light up (all of channel 2 and the top half of channel 1) and stay illuminated and I get no sound. Not sure what's up with that. Someone previously mentioned it might be something with the Firewire drivers needing to be downgraded. I hope that's not the case. That would be excessively lame!!!
So, yeah, if you're wondering if it works with newer Macs, the answer is yes. Just not quite ideally yet.

[DrG]

Mackie needs to bring the manufacturing back to the USA and build products that are industructable & quiet.

[vanakaru]

Something is still not clear. Is it possible to monitor mic input without latency FW attached to Satellite (not the base unit)?
And how to get low latency on Mac recording-dubbing? There seems not to be any control panel in OS X.

[jonPhillips]

I find the docking station to be terribly noisy, whiny, hummy.. so i don't use it anymore.. I feel that recording and monitoring via the pod gives me noiseless pristine quality. Great preamps! Too bad the docking station isn't up to par.

Do you have the docking station plugged in to mains power (via the wallwart) and connected to the computer with a 6-pin FireWire cable at the same time? If so, there's your problem – a ground loop. Disconnect the mains power as the Satellite will draw it's power from the 6-pin FireWire cable.

And yes, I found this out the hard way...

[axis player]

anyone interested Mackie have released new Vista drivers for this unit

[valverec]

Great review. The best part was where you found out how to fix your mac! It's amazing how something so simple can fix a problem like a noise in your system when using firewire on your mac.

[driverhasabomb]

I'm having the same issue alluded to above.

When I turn on the satellite (whether the pod or in the base) I get the 'power' light on as well as all the lights in channel 2 and half the lights in channel 1. It does not show up as 'connected' to the pc.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I'm still waiting on mackie to approve my forum registration so I can post there but I can't find any solid info on what's happening. I keep finding scattered reports across the internet but no one has really addressed it.

[Mandzo]

Hello!

I've been using the Mackie Satellite for quite some time, but I haven't made any vocal recordings on it because of the left/right monitoring issue (while direct monitoring a mono signal you can hear it only on one channel - left or right). Has anyone found a solution to this problem? If firmware didn't solve it maybe a hard mod should. Does anyone have the knowledge how to do it?
I'm in the market for a new interface because of this. I wouldn't look elsewhere if it wasn't for this issue. I love the quality, mobility and features of the Satellite but...
I wish there was a solution.
Thanks

[MikeRivers]

I haven't made any vocal recordings on it because of the left/right monitoring issue (while direct monitoring a mono signal you can hear it only on one channel - left or right). Has anyone found a solution to this problem?
Sure. Send the input to both channels (but you only need to record one channel). You can do this right on the Satellite when it's in the dock by patching the Insert Send of the channel with the mic plugged in to the Insert Return of the other channel.

To do it right, make or modify a 1/4" TRS (balanced) cable. On one end, solder a jumper between the tip and ring terminals of the plug. Label this end SEND. On the other end, disconnect or cut the wire going to the tip terminal of the plug. Label this end RETURN. Plug the SEND end into the channel with the mic and the RETURN end into the other channel.

What you have here is a plug (SEND) that picks up the signal out of the preamp at the Insert jack but since you have a jumper between the tip and ring, you can insert the plug fully into the Channel 1 Insert jack and maintain the signal flow from the preamp to the A/D converter. On the other end (RETURN), when the plug is fully inserted, the signal connects through the ring to the Channel 2 insert Return (only) and the Channel 2 mic preamp is disconnected so its noise won't contribute to what you're hearing in the headphones.

Since the signal comes out of Channel 1 after the Gain control, and goes into Channel 2 after the gain control, the Channel 1 and Channel 2 signals will be equal, and that will center your mic in the monitor.

You can fool around with this using an ordinary (unbalanced) 1/4" cable and put it halfway - to the "first click" - into the two Insert jacks, but that's not a good permanent solution for two reasons. First, that "first click" isn't very positive with the jacks that the Satellite uses, so you have to find the right spot between where the plug tip is making contact and it's not opening up the normalling contacts on the jacks. Second, because you aren't opening the normalled connection on the Channel 2 Insert jack, you're putting the load of the Channel 2 mic preamp on the output of the Channel 1 preamp, which can reduce its headroom a bit, and also introduce the noise from the Channel 2 preamp into your headphones. But feel free to give it a try before making a custom cable just to see if it works for you.

[axis player]

Sure. Send the input to both channels (but you only need to record one channel). You can do this right on the Satellite when it's in the dock by patching the Insert Send of the channel with the mic plugged in to the Insert Return of the other channel.

To do it right, make or modify a 1/4" TRS (balanced) cable. On one end, solder a jumper between the tip and ring terminals of the plug. Label this end SEND. On the other end, disconnect or cut the wire going to the tip terminal of the plug. Label this end RETURN. Plug the SEND end into the channel with the mic and the RETURN end into the other channel.

What you have here is a plug (SEND) that picks up the signal out of the preamp at the Insert jack but since you have a jumper between the tip and ring, you can insert the plug fully into the Channel 1 Insert jack and maintain the signal flow from the preamp to the A/D converter. On the other end (RETURN), when the plug is fully inserted, the signal connects through the ring to the Channel 2 insert Return (only) and the Channel 2 mic preamp is disconnected so its noise won't contribute to what you're hearing in the headphones.

Since the signal comes out of Channel 1 after the Gain control, and goes into Channel 2 after the gain control, the Channel 1 and Channel 2 signals will be equal, and that will center your mic in the monitor.

You can fool around with this using an ordinary (unbalanced) 1/4" cable and put it halfway - to the "first click" - into the two Insert jacks, but that's not a good permanent solution for two reasons. First, that "first click" isn't very positive with the jacks that the Satellite uses, so you have to find the right spot between where the plug tip is making contact and it's not opening up the normalling contacts on the jacks. Second, because you aren't opening the normalled connection on the Channel 2 Insert jack, you're putting the load of the Channel 2 mic preamp on the output of the Channel 1 preamp, which can reduce its headroom a bit, and also introduce the noise from the Channel 2 preamp into your headphones. But feel free to give it a try before making a custom cable just to see if it works for you.

I got to say I have never had an issue with my mackie it ticks all the boxes for my needs, but this post just put the icing on the cake. Cheers mate excellent post. :thu:

[rorry]

maybe the answer has already been posted but here it is again.

This high pitched noise i found was from having an unregulated power supply on my laptop.
Short fix though for the laptop users is to run on batteries.
Bought a regulation power supp and bobs your uncle. No more whine!!! Crystal clear. You can hear all my bad notes perfect!

On 64 samples barely any latency. Love it with the pre's around 4 oclock.

great piece of gear imo. Well done mackie.