When an ex member decides they don't want their part in the recording

[Parallex]

Let me tell you a little history here....

we're a band out of Ames, IA. We're all 24, and have a band that has been around for 4 years, and is well known in the area and has been fairly successful. We had a drummer who was two years younger than us, and he was the first member I asked to join the band in '02. Jump to 3 years later, this guy is a prick, an asshole, carries around an ego the size of a mule's cock, and establish's himself as an asshole even around people who don't know us. He's over the top anal and it's unjustified by the way he plays drums.

I paid $60/hr to record his ass on the first 3 songs of what would be our current album. It takes him hours because he makes ridiculous requests. It gives us all headaches, and I watch the hours fly by and my $$$$$ witness new currency exchange rates.

He tracks drums on a 4th song, in which his performance messed up the song up so bad we later had to completely retrack the song again (with our new drummer), also at $60/hr.

Ok, so I have the background established....this guy is an asshole for many reasons, and he sucks.

Now, we kick him out of the band (completely unanimously) in fall '04. We had a show coming up in our hometown, and those are always big shows for us, so we did not tell him it would be his last show because it would be just like him to refuse to play the show. So we kicked him out after the show. It was still very hard for us because he was still a close friend and he's been with me since day 1. He takes it very badly, becomes very angry and resentful, and suddenly we're horrible people. Time goes by, drama ensues, but we don't dwell and keep moving forward.

Then, I finally get this in an email from him just today:

I'm sending this to you here since I know you'll get it this way. I've been thinking it over for a while now and a want to make my break with parallex clean.

Please remove all images of me from the parallex website and from all materials. As for recorded performances, the first album I'm proud of, but I don't feel my work on the second album is up to my standards. I don't want any of my tracks (both drums and percussion) used, sampled, or otherwise disseminated.

Sorry for not bringing this up earlier.
-name removed to protect the asshole


"Used, sampled, or otherwise disseminated."

I love that line. What an ego to think someone would actually sample your drums. What a choad.

Legally, what do I have to do here? I want to just say "shove it." I paid for all his tracking. I told him if he wanted us to do this, he'd have to pay me for his tracking, then pay for the retracking, then pay for the remixing. I also told him we'd already given him proper credit in the linear notes for his performances in the cd. He was a fully consenting, dedicated member of the band at the time. Not to mention the cd is already sent off for mastering. If I own the copyright to the recordings, am I protected? Can a former performer just decide to revoke their trackings just like that?

I know there are smart people in here so I'm anxious to know if I'm screwed or if I can really stick it to this asshole.

[joestanman]

Christ people.

What is he gonna do? I mean really? Sue you? Come on...

Don't reply to his email. Dont call him. If you ever see him and he bitches:

GO UP TO HIM. GET IN HIS FACE AND SAY: "Fuck you. Fuck off."

Seriously. Unless this album sells 200,000 copies and you start seeing checks its nothing.

Besides, he recorded it in full faith that it would turn into a CD for the band. You paid for it. The most he could get I think would be some percentage of the $0 dollars you will make from the recording.

[BlueStrat]

I'd pay him 100 bucks a track and tell him that regardless of his wishes, it's not up to him.

Of course, if you're going to do that, you may as well just re-track the cuts with a different drummer. I don't know about yours, but the guy I use could do it in one or two takes.

[KoaFreak]

Just kick him in the nuts. :thu:

[Plate]

I've been in simalar situations, usually it's not extreme on the past stuff because typically people realize they can't undo the past. However in an expierence I had with an X band member who wanted nothign to do with us in the future, he requested he be given proper credit, and royalties for the songs he sang on and the one song he helped write (though he tried to credit himself to others, which was BS). Regardless we gave him very clear credit in the album, and said there ya go. If we make money off the song we'll give you your cut but we had already worked out that all the album sales would go back to the cost of putting it out and then the rest of the money made would go towards the band which he agreed with. He was paid for his time recording and given his credit, end of story. If we ever released any tracks with him on it as a single and thought that it might all of a sudden have gone somewhere and and a lot of money, we would have re-recorded it it without him and on the song he helped write, re-written. That way we would've just been able to avoid any probs, and it wouldn't have been that hard to do, but that never happened and we've moved on.

So pretty much what you've paid is good and should be to him. If you ever consider releasing a commercial single out of something he played on, i suggest re recording that track only, its a cost but much less than the BS he wants to bring by not being a part of what he messed up in the first place. Legally contact a lawyer if anything happens (which is usually $80/hr just for a phone call) but if you can wave a legal document in his face saying you're screwed buddy, then it may be worth it. You could also get him to sign a legal waiver saying he accepts his credit on the album, and the money he recieved as his fees/royalities.

[Monsoon]

The guy could make your life miserable. Just retrack the three songs and move on. It's probably a good idea for you to have a clean break from him, too.

[ashjn]

Yea if you re-record the songs then he has nothing on you, end of story. Until you start making money off of it though, there is nothing he can really do, but if money did start coming in from it, he might have a case

[Parallex]

I refuse to retrack. We simply can't afford it, nor do we have the time.

Also, a girl who used to work with our band ran into him at a local coffee shop, and she was talking to him, and he smiled and said "I pissed Josh off."


So I don't think he really cares, and I'm not going to take him seriously.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by Parallex
I refuse to retrack. We simply can't afford it, nor do we have the time.

Also, a girl who used to work with our band ran into him at a local coffee shop, and she was talking to him, and he smiled and said "I pissed Josh off."


So I don't think he really cares, and I'm not going to take him seriously.

Well, alright then, you'll get what you get.


Excuse me for asking, but why did you ask if you already knew what you were going to do?

[Parallex]

Because at the time of asking, I didn't know what I was going to do. And the mix of opinions here has helped me.

Clearly, if we absolutely had to, then we could afford it and make the time, it's just right now I don't want to if I don't have to,...and judging from the general opinions I've received and now his reaction, I'm not too worried.

But I posted here in the event that someone might describe some dynamite law that I should know about.

That doesn't seem to be the case though. It's always useful/helpful to get the opinon's of others from here.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by Parallex
Because at the time of asking, I didn't know what I was going to do. And the mix of opinions here has helped me.

Clearly, if we absolutely had to, then we could afford it and make the time, it's just right now I don't want to if I don't have to,...and judging from the general opinions I've received and now his reaction, I'm not too worried.

But I posted here in the event that someone might describe some dynamite law that I should know about.

That doesn't seem to be the case though. It's always useful/helpful to get the opinon's of others from here.

Fair enough. Hope it works out for you. Life is too short to put up with other people's dickishness. :D :thu:

[Dave Martin]

Worst case - send him a check for $100. Total. Not 'per song'.
And include in the envelope a bill for $500, with the item, "pro rated share of studio time for ex-band member'.

if he was a partner in the band, then he's (theoretically) responsible for his share, even if you were the one paying for it. It should at least cause some controversy.

[daddymack]

Just ignore the @$$#01e. You owe him nothing except credit for the songs he played on. If the CD goes to 10,000 units, throw him a bone.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by daddymack
Just ignore the @$$#01e. You owe him nothing except credit for the songs he played on. If the CD goes to 10,000 units, throw him a bone.

Except... that if he cashes the check (instead of paying the invoice), then you arguably have a 'work for hire' situation. He played, he was paid. End of deal.

In a small town ( gather that this IS in a small town), sometimes the appearance is more important than the reality. And the appearance of a drummer taking for his work AFTER telling the band that he doesn't want his performance on the record makes it appear that he's comletely in the wrong. And then the band can talk about the asshole like he's talking about them.

[Parallex]

Originally posted by Dave Martin


Except... that if he cashes the check (instead of paying the invoice), then you arguably have a 'work for hire' situation. He played, he was paid. End of deal.

In a small town ( gather that this IS in a small town), sometimes the appearance is more important than the reality. And the appearance of a drummer taking for his work AFTER telling the band that he doesn't want his performance on the record makes it appear that he's comletely in the wrong. And then the band can talk about the asshole like he's talking about them.


This is a good point. Except it would be better if we sent him a check for $20. It's about all he was worth to us.

[guitarmook]

Without more information, here's the way it usually works in bands... they are without any formal declaration of partnership, etc - so the default assumption is that everything is owned eqaully ampng the members. If you don't have anything (contract) that indicates that you 'hired' him to work on 'your tracks', but instead, that he was an equal member of the band, then he does own part of the tracks and can make your life miserable.

The fact that you paid for all of the recording time might help, and if you have copyrighted both the songs AND the recordings only in your name (not the band's) that will help your case as well... however - if that's the case, he can probably say he was never compensated for his work, and still demand either payment or (part) ownership...


This is why bands need to talk business from the beginning...

[Parallex]

Agreed, very much so. Business is always important, unfortunately it's always difficult at times to make the others see it exactly that way. And there are so many possible scenarios that could happen, it's difficult to come up with something that could safeguard against all of them.

I have a problem with calling him a part owner, because nowhere will you find a part owner of a business who invests nothing, yet takes profits.

Compensating him can be worked out,....if it ever even comes to that. I haven't heard back from him so I'm thinking he's dropped the idea since I told him we had already sent the tracks off.

Just a *little* lie :)

[daddymack]

Originally posted by Parallex


I have a problem with calling him a part owner, because nowhere will you find a part owner of a business who invests nothing, yet takes profits.


I see you have never had to pay alimony...;)

[fuzzball]

If it is not copyrighted then just do it in your name. If he complains later tell him he needs to conver his share of the recording expense before he will recieve any share of the profits.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by daddymack


I see you have never had to pay alimony...;)

Ba da Boom!! :freak:

[EcHoplex]

Parallex - I wouldn't give a f$%king penny to the guy. In fact, do yourself and bandmates a favor - dump the drum tracks and record new ones. Besides, why would you even want to put out a recording that's not up to performance standards? Who gives a rats ass about the money. Think about the long term goal and the fact that you'll have something you're proud of and more importantly, something you won't have to aplologize for. ;)

[Monsoon]

Technically, he's probably a joint copyright owner on those songs because his tracks contributed to the work. You seem to have no written agreement to the contrary. He can come knocking for royalties for every sale you make. Even if you only sell ten copies, he can demand his share. That's why I said he can make your life miserable. Proceed at your own risk.

[fuzzball]

Actually that is not entirely true, if his name is not on the copyright he can in most cases get away with it. A similar situation happend with a band that made it big ..I can't remember their name but one member got way with the rights to the whole bands songs.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by Monsoon
Technically, he's probably a joint copyright owner on those songs because his tracks contributed to the work. You seem to have no written agreement to the contrary. He can come knocking for royalties for every sale you make. Even if you only sell ten copies, he can demand his share. That's why I said he can make your life miserable. Proceed at your own risk.

The performance is not subject to copyright. Only the lyrics and melody and is some instances the arrangement IF new material is added, like horn ar string arrangements. You can't copyright drum beats, basslines, or chord progressions.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by EcHoplex
Parallex - I wouldn't give a f$%king penny to the guy. In fact, do yourself and bandmates a favor - dump the drum tracks and record new ones. Besides, why would you even want to put out a recording that's not up to performance standards? Who gives a rats ass about the money. Think about the long term goal and the fact that you'll have something you're proud of and more importantly, something you won't have to aplologize for. ;)

Sound avice. You should listen to this man, P.:thu:

[New Trail]

Originally posted by BlueStrat


Only the lyrics and melody and is some instances the arrangement IF new material is added, like horn ar string arrangements. You can't copyright drum beats, basslines, or chord progressions.

What if the chord progression is written BEFORE the lyrics and melody, and IN FACT is the INSPIRATION for the lyrics and melody? Shouldn't the person who "wrote" the chord progression get songwriting credit as well as the person who wrote the lyrics and melody?

[Parallex]

Originally posted by New Trail


What if the chord progression is written BEFORE the lyrics and melody, and IN FACT is the INSPIRATION for the lyrics and melody? Shouldn't the person who "wrote" the chord progression get songwriting credit as well as the person who wrote the lyrics and melody?

this is what I consider "music" in songwriting credits. We credit as "music by X, lyrics by y,"

[BeauNasty]

Fuck this guy. If he doesn't own the music copyrights then he can't do jack shit. He voluntarily recorded those tracks, and is a total pussy if he wants to fuck the band over in that manner.

Personally, I would just use the tracks and not give him credit for the work since he wants to be a dick. He really doesn't have any proof that it's his work. Unless you are getting quarterly royalty checks, what's he gonna do??? Sue you? For what?

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by New Trail


What if the chord progression is written BEFORE the lyrics and melody, and IN FACT is the INSPIRATION for the lyrics and melody? Shouldn't the person who "wrote" the chord progression get songwriting credit as well as the person who wrote the lyrics and melody?

No.

I can take any Beatles song and substitute the recorded chords with relative minors, etc etc. Does that mean I've re-written a Beatles song? Its simply an arrangement, but legally a chord progression isn't a song.

[sdOK]

I dont know how it works exactly in the US. If he didnt write the songs there isnt that much he can do. I take it the songs are registered with the relevant society/publisher? So your mechanical/performance royalties are well out of his reach no matter what. The only thing he can lay any claim to is payment for his performance.
I would offer him a percentage of the profits from the tracks he played on if they go into profit or a one off session fee.
Even if he took legal action that would be all he would get anyway. And in truth it is all he is entitled to.
You paid for the recordings so you have control over them not him.
Offer him the above and if he doesnt want to be reasonable just ignore him.
He has the most to lose by being unreasonable as legal action would most probably eat away any money he would get anyway.

It is better to face these issues upfront but it is hard sometimes. We are musicians not accountants and lawyers.

I have been in the position of someone no longer in a band who wants their fair share of profits after leaving but you have to be realistic about what you are entitled to.

[Parallex]

We're band people. Why are we talking about profits? ;)

[sdOK]

Exactly. Well I have been in a situation where there were real profits and it can get very serious very quick.

I am a musician not a businessman out for max profits. I am much happier to hammer out a solution amicably than resorting to threats or legal action. And I will happily take a little less if it will make everyone a little happier about things.
I have been shafted a few times and learnt how to not get shafted in future and make sure I get a fair deal.

The business side of music is a dark and horrible place. From what I have seen someone always gets shafted when there are profits. And nine times out of ten it is us musicians.

The latest thing that has niggled me is how little I get from itunes sales. It seems to be less than what I get from cd's sold in shops. I thought it was supposed to mean more for the artist as there are less overheads?? I get a couple of pence from the 99 pence each song costs. How does that work? To be honest I would rather pull the songs of it if I had the power to and just let people download them from filesharing networks for free.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by Parallex
We're band people. Why are we talking about profits? ;)

Indeed. Why worry about copyrights, or booking fees, or selling CDs? Just put a band together, go play for free, give your CDs away and shut the hell up!

(just kidding)

But sometimes I think it would make things a lot simpler...

I was in one band, a Christian band in the 80s, and we set out to NOT make money, never charge for playing, never sell anything...and it was probably the most fun I ever had in a band.

[Scafeets]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
Worst case - send him a check for $100. Total. Not 'per song'.
And include in the envelope a bill for $500, with the item, "pro rated share of studio time for ex-band member'.

if he was a partner in the band, then he's (theoretically) responsible for his share, even if you were the one paying for it. It should at least cause some controversy.

Best advice yet.
Also, if you do retrack, be sure to give the new drummer credit and "Special thanks to (New Drummer) for cleaning up the mess."

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by Scafeets


Also, if you do retrack, be sure to give the new drummer credit and "Special thanks to (New Drummer) for cleaning up the mess."


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


that is hilarious! Appropriate, too.

[Parallex]

Originally posted by Scafeets


Best advice yet.
Also, if you do retrack, be sure to give the new drummer credit and "Special thanks to (New Drummer) for cleaning up the mess."

well, seeing as how the new drummer is my brother....I'm pretty sure that credit isn't going to go missed by him :)

[fuzzball]

That is funny my brother just became my new drummer (and he is really good).:D

[gtrdave]

Originally posted by Parallex
Let me tell you a little history here....

we're a band out of Ames, IA. We're all 24, and have a band that has been around for 4 years, and is well known in the area and has been fairly successful. We had a drummer who was two years younger than us, and he was the first member I asked to join the band in '02. Jump to 3 years later, this guy is a prick, an asshole, carries around an ego the size of a mule's cock, and establish's himself as an asshole even around people who don't know us. He's over the top anal and it's unjustified by the way he plays drums.

I paid $60/hr to record his ass on the first 3 songs of what would be our current album. It takes him hours because he makes ridiculous requests. It gives us all headaches, and I watch the hours fly by and my $$$$$ witness new currency exchange rates.

He tracks drums on a 4th song, in which his performance messed up the song up so bad we later had to completely retrack the song again (with our new drummer), also at $60/hr.

Ok, so I have the background established....this guy is an asshole for many reasons, and he sucks.

Now, we kick him out of the band (completely unanimously) in fall '04. We had a show coming up in our hometown, and those are always big shows for us, so we did not tell him it would be his last show because it would be just like him to refuse to play the show. So we kicked him out after the show. It was still very hard for us because he was still a close friend and he's been with me since day 1. He takes it very badly, becomes very angry and resentful, and suddenly we're horrible people. Time goes by, drama ensues, but we don't dwell and keep moving forward.

Then, I finally get this in an email from him just today:

I'm sending this to you here since I know you'll get it this way. I've been thinking it over for a while now and a want to make my break with parallex clean.

Please remove all images of me from the parallex website and from all materials. As for recorded performances, the first album I'm proud of, but I don't feel my work on the second album is up to my standards. I don't want any of my tracks (both drums and percussion) used, sampled, or otherwise disseminated.

Sorry for not bringing this up earlier.
-name removed to protect the asshole


"Used, sampled, or otherwise disseminated."

I love that line. What an ego to think someone would actually sample your drums. What a choad.

Legally, what do I have to do here? I want to just say "shove it." I paid for all his tracking. I told him if he wanted us to do this, he'd have to pay me for his tracking, then pay for the retracking, then pay for the remixing. I also told him we'd already given him proper credit in the linear notes for his performances in the cd. He was a fully consenting, dedicated member of the band at the time. Not to mention the cd is already sent off for mastering. If I own the copyright to the recordings, am I protected? Can a former performer just decide to revoke their trackings just like that?

I know there are smart people in here so I'm anxious to know if I'm screwed or if I can really stick it to this asshole.

If there was never any contract written up pertaining to the details of the recording or the recorded materials, he's out of luck.
End of story.

If you want to pay him for his time, good luck with that. Expect him to act as immature as it sounds he's acted in the past and expect the other band members to want thier cut, too.

Copyright ownership just protects the writer of the lyrics and melody against plagerism and unlawful use by other parties.
Drums are not in the equation.