MACKIE ONYX 400F (audio interface) [Archive] - Page 2 - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

MikeRivers

01-01-2006, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by mige0
Why is it, that only the 44kHz setting of the 400F seems to work "distortion free" when using the 400F as an extrnal D/A for the cd player connected by SPDIF?The simple answer is that CD is only 44.1 kHz (and 16-bit). What's your test setup? What's connected to what, and what does the CD player have to do with it?

It also appeares to me as if there are sort of timing problems resulting in audible distortion when the "internal clock" setting is chosen in such a combination?If you're feeding S/PDIF to the 400F and using the 400F's internal clock setting, the 400F isn't synchronized to the input data stream. You have to tell the 400F to use the S/PDIF input as the clock source. You probably also have to set it to the correct sample rate.

Any suggestion on how to remain "SPDIF consumer" and also "SPDIF clock source" as the preferred settings when firewire is disconected and the 400F is switched off and back on? Not if those settings don't stick. There may be a "save as defaults" option somewhere on the Firewire control panel, or they may just expect you to set them correctly each time.

For those who do accoustic measurement (like me from time to time) a more extended frequency range for the mic-in's would be nice. It's hard to see the detail up near the high end, but it looks to me like you're just starting to get a bit of roll-off, maybe 1 dB or so a few kHz shy of 1/2 the sample rate. This is as it should be. If you try to put anything higher than FS/2 into an A/D converter, you're violating the sampling law and you'll go to jail. I would think that as long as the distortion is sufficiently low, 96 kHz would be just fine for your mics with claimed response up to 40 kHz.

Interesting that on your noise spectrum test, there seems to be a peak at 6 kHz (6x the test frequency). It's 90 dB down, (about 0,003%) but it would be interesting to see if that's really a 6x peak or if it's a 6 kHz peak that's always there, with or without an input.

Can your test program measure IM (intermodulation) distortion?

mige0

01-01-2006, 12:46 PM

hello Mike

First I'd like to thank you for your reply and Anderton for this special thread and in general for the idea of making pro reviews in this way as well as all the people contributing here.
Actually I was looking for a substitute for the disappointing Edirol FA-101 which I returned immediately few weeks ago. Ok it's not the same price as the Mackie but also not really cheap and the technical figures look good. But uuhh – it didn't even survive the first hour of listening.

On my search for alternatives I remembered that my Mackie VLZ mixers always work fine and so I came to the link to this review on the Mackie Homepage. I was glad to find here an in depth review covering almost any aspect I was interested in. After some hours of reading this made me decide to go for the 400F.

Now back to the issue.
As all my questions were a little bit mixed and packed in my first posting here, I'd like to break it into different parts and refer to the frequency response in this posting only.

The measurement software used, is pretty inexpensive and available under
http://www.audiotester.de/
"http://www.audiotester.de/"
(sorry Mike, not capable of taking IM measurement) and though it should support up to 32Bit I was not able to switch to 24Bit. This means all graphs are taken in 16Bit mode!
My guess is that the integration of the Mackie drivers into WIN XP is not quite perfect, as for example, I also was not able to find the WIN-standard mixers for the 400F. But this is something I would more like to address to the people of Mackie together with the non permanant console settings.

On the graph
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/60101frequency.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/60101frequency.gif"
you can see 4 curves.
The upper three curves are made by outputing the signal from the measurement software by the 400F and then connect a cable from this output to feed the signal to the insert point of the MIC-IN.
Basically this means, that the MIC-IN is measured without (!) its adjustable gain stage. I am not sure - because I do not have any schematics - but its most likely that from this point on its more or less the same circuitry than for the LINE-IN's (except for the balancing stages).
Every curve represents a different setting: 192kHz, 96kHz and 44kHz. It easily can be seen that there is only one fixed anti aliasing filter that meets the 192kHz requirement. The other curves just stop where they should have a steep roll off. On how this works for the settings less then 192kHz I didn't find the answer.

The lowest curve shows the behaviour of the complete MIC-IN. There the signal is wired not to the insert point but right to the port you normally would plug your MIC. (the gain is manipulated the way I could shown it on the same diagram). The setting here is 192kHz, as this is the most interesting one.
Here you can see that the –3dB point is around 6Hz at the lower end and 40kHz at the upper end of the frequency range. This is really not bad. only for acoustic measurements I would like to have this –3dB point somewhere at 60-80kHz. Maybe to change the appropriate capacitor is a modifying possibility. Maybe someone from Mackie can put some further light for me on this?

As you was asking for the MIC-IN gain in an earlier posting and I had my Minirator / Minilyser ready:
I measured about 80mV / -20dBu with full gain for turnig the red LED on.
the gain stage is around 60dB adjustable (if Anderton wouldn't be outside Europe I could make him an offer for Minirator / Minilyser / NTI Minstruments, used or new, but they run a webshop anyway
http://www.nt-instruments.com/X0-ASP-pLngCateId_88-pIntLevel_3-X1-default.htm
"http://www.nt-instruments.com/X0-ASP-pLngCateId_88-pIntLevel_3-X1-default.htm")
(':thu:')

greetings
Michael

next time about cd-player / spdif and distortion

mige0

01-01-2006, 07:04 PM

hello Mike

to have a closer look to the THD behaviour of the 400F I made a clean setup and increased averaging to 50 measurements.

Again the the curves were made by outputing the signal from the measurement software by the 400F and then a connection was made from this output to feed the signal to the the MIC-IN.
In the two screenshots below (showing 1kHz and 2kHz respectively) you can see that 3rd harmonics are dominating and 2nd and some very high order harmonics are there as well but hardly can be detected.

http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_0db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_0db_FS.gif"
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_2kHz_thd_0db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_2kHz_thd_0db_FS.gif"

Sorry Mike, for the missleading graph taken earlier.

To that point, I became interested in some further investigation to get clear whether this very small amounts of distortion come more from the MIC-IN or more from the OUT circuit.
On the two screenshots below you can see that harmonics get smaller when you decrease the signal of the D/A and they finally got lost in the noise floor of the MIC-IN when you further lower the OUT signal to about –20dB. Notice the DAW sliders positions. Giving less output right from the software has exactly the same effect.

http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif"
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_-20db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_1kHz_thd_-20db_FS.gif"

This makes clear to me that the harmonics are coming from the D/A circuit.
I have to add, that the level was kept constant by the MIC gain manually. The yellow LED is turning on at a very exact –10dB which was very helpful in this as it also will be for setting the correct levels for mic recording.

So far what I could measure by ease, though its pretty time consuming. (':D')
You mentioned that you are interested in IM distortion - the measuring software does not have this as an standard option but it can output dual tones at every level. If you tell me what frequencies at what ever levels you want to see intermodulated, I could perform it for you and post it next time.

+++++++++++++
added later:
Sorry, somtimes it would be better having read the entire manual first. ':confused:'
The measurement software is easily capable of performing IM and there is quite somthing on the help as well. Besides that, a veeeeeery quick response from the author helped me to perform best.
There seems to be no absolute fix rules (frequencie) but quite some standard guidelines for this kind of measuremant.

http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_IM_-10db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060102_IM_-10db_FS.gif"

By the way, I also checked with the author about the quality of the sinus used.
I was told that it is calculatid on a 64bit basis which means this sinus produced by the software is virtually perfect and therefor has absolutely no impact on the graphs shown.
++++++++++++++

greetings
Michael:confused:

DemoKing

01-01-2006, 08:28 PM

Michael- Its cool that you are doing all that even though it means nothing to me trying to decipher it :)
But... you tried another interface prior to it (Edirol I think?) What others have you compared, and what are your impressions from the 400F just listening back, and overall? Used the AD section yet?
Paul

harryjames

01-02-2006, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by mige0
Actually I was looking for a substitute for the disappointing Edirol FA-101 which I returned immediately few weeks ago.

mige0; i came close to purchasing a Edirol FA-101 as well but after careful study of the "pictures" i realized there was a "toggle switch" on the inputs so you can only record using 2 of the 4 mic pres which became an "instant NO for me."

On my search for alternatives I remembered that my Mackie VLZ mixers always work fine...

mige0, since your Mackie mixer has worked well for you [as mine has as well] perhaps you should consider one of the new Mackie Onyx mixers with a Firewire card. These mixers allow you to send the entire computer mix back to the mixer ala 2 channel stereo with zero latency!

Some of us like outboard gear and are more productive than using the typical PC DAW setup. Sounds like it would behove you to take this into consideration in your upcoming music gear purchases.

;;cheers;;

MikeRivers

01-02-2006, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by mige0
Actually I was looking for a substitute for the disappointing Edirol FA-101 which I returned immediately few weeks ago. Ok it's not the same price as the Mackie but also not really cheap and the technical figures look good. But uuhh – it didn't even survive the first hour of listening.Funny about that. The Edirol interfaces have had good reviews in print and I haven't read of any sonic problems the few times these interfaces have been discussed on line. But when I asked my dealer about their new multi-channel Firewire interface several months ago, he said that the previous models didn't sound good so he wasn't going to rush to evaluate the new models.
The measurement software used, is pretty inexpensive and available under
http://www.audiotester.de/
"http://www.audiotester.de/"
(sorry Mike, not capable of taking IM measurement) and though it should support up to 32Bit I was not able to switch to 24Bit. This means all graphs are taken in 16Bit mode!That will limit the lowest numbers of THD and noise that you can see, but other than that it won't hurt anything. It could be that the program doesn't work with the ASIO drivers and the WDM drivers are just providing basic support.

You might want to take a look at the Rightmark Analyzer (http://www.rightmark.org) to see if it works better with the Mackie drivers. It's really popular among those who test this stuff. Of course in either case you'll be limited by the accuracy of the output of the device you're testing since that's used as the input for the test, but at least it's a closed system. The upper three [Frequency Response] curves are made by outputing the signal from the measurement software by the 400F and then connect a cable from this output to feed the signal to the insert point of the MIC-IN.
Basically this means, that the MIC-IN is measured without (!) its adjustable gain stage.This means you're sending the test signal in after the mic preamp. That's where the Insert Return is. You're not actually testing the preamp, you're testing the A/D converter, probalby essentially the same as the line input.. It easily can be seen that there is only one fixed anti aliasing filter that meets the 192kHz requirement. The other curves just stop where they should have a steep roll off. On how this works for the settings less then 192kHz I didn't find the answer.It could be that it just never tries to send a signal that's out of the expected band. Back in the early days of DAT recorders, we could sometimes tell a difference in sound between 44.1 and 48 kHz, but with modern converters with oversampling and digital filtering, the difference is whether you're making the recording for audio (44.1) or video (48) purposes. And 88.1/96 kHz sample rates provide response well beyond that of concern by any but the most fanatic audiophiles and researchers. So knowing that the response is as wide and flat as it can be is sufficient. Often the rolloff for 192 kHz sampling is more gentle than the brick wall filters used with lower rates, so it could be educational to look at the shape of the filters,

I don't think there's a capacitor you can change to extend the bandwidth at 192 kHz. Most of that stuff is all done internally at the chip level today and the choice is made by the chip manufacturer. These chips are optimized for audio listening and not for measurement - that's why the Audio Precision computer interface box costs about ten times the price of a 400F, just for two channels. It's not built using dollar parts. ;)
I measured about 80mV / -20dBu with full gain for turnig the red LED on.
the gain stage is around 60dB adjustableThat's pretty reasonable. I found on the Onyx mixer with the Firewire card, that the clip light on the mixer came on less than 1 dB below digital full scale, and that you can increase the input level a bit more than 1 dB over "red light goes on" before the analog distortion starts to rise rapidly. I guess the 400F is probably about the same, but it's worth a check.

MikeRivers

01-02-2006, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by mige0
I became interested in some further investigation to get clear whether this very small amounts of distortion come more from the MIC-IN or more from the OUT circuit.
On the two screenshots below you can see that harmonics get smaller when you decrease the signal of the D/A and they finally got lost in the noise floor of the MIC-IN when you further lower the OUT signal to about –20dB. Notice the DAW sliders positions. Giving less output right from the software has exactly the same effect.It's probably fairer to say that rather than the distortion coming from the D/A, that it comes from the analog output. Effectively it's the same thing since you can't separate them, but it rasises the question of wheter to point the finger at the analog or the digital designer. Perhaps where the problem liies is not in the choice of the chip or digital design, but what's between the D/A output and the line out jacks. But it really doesn't matter since there's nothing you can do about it but (as one user did) bypass the analog output chain and use an external D/A converter. From the THD graphs, it doesn't look there would be anything that would make the sound unlistenable (as at least one person has described it). This is why I'm curious as to what else is going on.
the measuring software does not have this as an standard option but it can output dual tones at every level. If you tell me what frequencies at what ever levels you want to see intermodulated, The classic test that used to be standard for hi-fi equipment was someting like 60 Hz and 6 kHz mixed in a 4:1 ratio. That seemed to be pretty good for quantifying "toob" distortion but doesn't mean much for digital systems. I'll see if I can come up with something better for you, but you might try 5 and 6 kHz, and 15 and 16 kHz in the meantime just to see what you can see.

[Later] - Here's what I was thinking about, something that Paul Stamler wrote about the sort of testing that he does when looking for reasons behind stuff he hears that he doesn't like: (from Paul Stamler in a rec.audio.pro posting )

Two tones at around 19kHz, for example (I use 19 and 19.5) can reveal all kinds of misbehavior on the part of equipment, particularly solid state and more particularly digital stuff. So can three
tones (I add a 9.6kHz signal to the previous two). These tests are useful for sleuthing out problems at the top end, because the test signals and at least some of the distortion products lie well within the passband. You find all sorts of stuff -- if the system just produces a 500 Hz difference signal, that's one thing; if it also produces 1kHz and 1.5kHz that means a more complex transfer function. And if there are IMD products at 5.1, 5.6, and 6.1kHz, then there's intermodulation going on with a 44.1kHz sampling frequency. Useful tool.

By the way, I also checked with the author about the quality of the sinus used. I was told that it is calculatid on a 64bit basis which means this sinus produced by the software is virtually perfect and therefor has absolutely no impact on the graphs shown.But still, the actual test is only as good as the purity of the analog output that you're feeding into the path under test, and this is what's in question, at least by some. I assume that you see an essentially unreadable THD on the Minilyzer when you connect that to the analog output and look at the essentially perfect since wave generated by the computer?

composer

01-02-2006, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by DemoKing
Regarding the needing-more-midi ports problem I have... my drum module has a midi in, out, and thru... can I plug the out from the module into the 400F, and plug my keyboard into the thru and not have to screw around with changing plus every time? If so, that rocks. I'm assuming thru just passes signal on, I'm not very knowledgable on midi implementations....

Well I have the Blue SKy desk and the way it works is that you connect the other three speakers via the SUB, so somehow you can send the signal via SX to the correct speakers as opposed to using each output on the 400F. I'm not exactly sure how this concept works yet.

With NAMM coming up, it will be interesting to see what will be coming OR NOT, of course anything at NAMM will be 4-12 months before delivery.:D

mige0

01-02-2006, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by DemoKing

.... and what are your impressions from the 400F just listening back, and overall? Used the AD section yet?

paul – well, beside the very good specs, "just listening" is amazing and something like learning new what you already know: your equipment and your records. Sorry AD section not really used yet – judging from the AD section graphs, I am looking forward to the nice things left to discover...

Originally posted by harryjames

mige0, since your Mackie mixer has worked well for you [as mine has as well] perhaps you should consider one of the new Mackie Onyx mixers with a Firewire card. .... Sounds like it would behove you to take this into consideration in your upcoming music gear purchases.

harryjames – yes, I was considering that seriously. But mobility is still something I do not want to miss, and compared by size and mass the onyx mixers lost by far.

Originally posted by MikeRivers

I assume that you see an essentially unreadable THD on the Minilyzer when you connect that to the analog output and look at the essentially perfect since wave generated by the computer?

Mike – right, such small amounts of distortion are about ten times beyond the limits for THD measurement with the Minilyzer.
By the way, the sensitivity of the MIC-IN (with the use of the XLR connectors) is around 8mV with full gain turning the red LED on (80mV as stated above, only in "LINE-IN" mode on the TRS phone jack)

When checking the different options of feeding input to the channels 1 to 4 something interesting can be observed. Depending on being used as High-Z, Line or MIC Input, the 2nd order harmonics changes significantly. 3rd and higher order harmonics stay basically the same which are assumed to be from the output anyway.

MIC:
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_XLR_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_XLR_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif"

LINE:
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_TRS_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_TRS_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif"

High-Z
http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_high-z_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif
"http://www.kinotechnik.at/pages/onyx/060103_high-z_1kHz_thd_-10db_FS.gif"

As can be seen the MIC-IN as well as the High-Z-IN add a pleasing amount of 2nd order harmonics.
:)

greetings
Michael

cgoobes

01-03-2006, 05:22 AM

How can this unit possibly exist without having the ability to switch between -10 and +4? This is completely rediculous. My M-audio Delta card that cost me 150 bucks has an amazingly eazy to use software control panel that switches these levels at any time with the click of a mouse.

LISTEN UP MACKIE>>>> GO LOOK AT M-AUDIO DELTA SERIES AND SEE HOW SOFTWARE CONTROLS SHOULD BE<<<<<

Pair that with your converters and your interface and I wont have to spend 600 dollars more for a stupid fireface just so i can switch between pro and consumer line level inputs.javascript:smilie(':mad:')
mad

the stranger

01-03-2006, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Anderton

But not so fast. Carbon-zinc and alkaline batteries have very different internal impedances, and when used with older effects that had shoddy power supply rejection, the battery type COULD make a difference in the sound.

I can here a difference between carbon-zinc and alkaline batteries. I can also hear d/a converters chirping. High pitched noise from crts. I hear all kind of strange stuff that most mortals don't hear.

And I have to admit that I'm very interested in the sidetrack concerning the d/a conversion. As noted, I'm very sensitive to high freq information.
I tend to get ear fatigue very easily.
And one of the most annoying experiences I have had with audio dealt with some crappy d/a conversion.
---

As for the review...this is the most comprehensive look at a piece of gear I've ever read. Great concept and application.

And I'm still only on page 8 or something.
:eek:

One thing I would like to see is either another thread or maybe some exxpansion of this one to include the 1220, 1620, and 1640. To me, these appear to be exactly what I would want. The combination of analog mixer with firewire output is an idea that is way past due. It's amazing that digital mixers didn't start this way (maybe they did?).

I'm seriously considering one of the above. I have been doing audio on the computer for some time, but have yet to venture into the interface world.
Which is a good thing because the options and choices in this area have grown exponentially in the last couple of years.

Sorry for the long winded post that doesn't add much.

Thanks to the pros for the education!

DemoKing

01-04-2006, 03:43 PM

Ok, got my 400F today.
Downloaded the drivers from the site this morning. Went to install the drivers... "you must have service pack1 or better to install this software"
Fine. Damnit, fine. Ok.
Drive all the way back home (no modem in DAW) to download service pack 1 or 2, and it turns out, due to someone that needs to be tortured and killed TONIGHT, that I cannot download those things. It wants to do it for you and install them on the machine. No option whatsoever of saving it to the desktop and making a copy and running off.
It does, however, oh thank the Lord above, give you the option of downloading the netoworking version of it, that is over 130 MB!!! In other words, in dial-up terms, about 8 hours for me. Thats if I dont lose connection in that time, or need to use the phone. So now what? Mass homicide spree? Smash everything I own in the street? Kick the dog? Beat the kids?
I'm waiting for someone to call me back that MAY be able to do the download for me in the next 48 hours. In the meantime, no listening test, no nothing.

Anderton

01-04-2006, 11:23 PM

<<It does, however, oh thank the Lord above, give you the option of downloading the netoworking version of it, that is over 130 MB!!! In other words, in dial-up terms, about 8 hours for me. Thats if I dont lose connection in that time, or need to use the phone. So now what? Mass homicide spree? Smash everything I own in the street? Kick the dog? Beat the kids?>>

First of all, if you use anything related to USB, and particularly USB over MIDI, you'll kick yourself for not having installed SP1 earlier. There's a reason why so many programs require it for proper operation.

The dial up thing KILLS for this update. But if it installs on your computer it takes almost as long. Go to anyplace with broadband and bring a 256MB USB memory stick. Download to the stick. You should be able to do this at Kinko's or a hotel's business center (watch for viruses, though).

You didn't hear this from me, by the way, but there have been rumors of people installing the 400F with standard Windows XP and surviving :)

DemoKing

01-05-2006, 12:44 AM

I got lucky. Borrowed someones Dell backup disk, that ususally wont work with anything but a Dell. It has Sp1a on it. I did the "upgrade" option, and it asked for a serial, I put in my current XP serial number, and it worked and didnt make me call for validation and shit again. The drivers installed in like 1 second. Works great so far.

So, 1st impressions... just a quick listening test THROUGH my board because I need a pair of 1/4 trs to MALE xlr to go straight to the monitors, the top end sounds GREAT. The space and clarity is much nicer, and things seem to sit outside the speakers more. I will post something more comprehehesive after a few hours with Sonar and recording some.
My last 3 years have been on a Delta 1010, so thats my comparison.

cgoobes

01-05-2006, 03:07 AM

hey Anderton

Can you please tell someone important at mackie that ive got 700 dollars that will have to be spent on something else unless they can add some provision for consumer grade equiptment on the line inputs?

Ive got a 70's era studiomaster console that sounds sweeter than sweet... but the outputs are designed to feed consumer level devices.

I've talked to and emailed a couple of the tech guys at mackie and they say that its an issue they arent working on.

The m-audio delta series does it through software. I can't imagine it would be difficult.

PLEASE??
:evil:

DemoKing

01-05-2006, 04:14 AM

Slap an RNC between it and crank up the gain.

MikeRivers

01-05-2006, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by cgoobes
Ive got a 70's era studiomaster console that sounds sweeter than sweet... but the outputs are designed to feed consumer level devices.

The m-audio delta series does it through software. I can't imagine it would be difficult.This is the sort of thing that you run into when trying to use a 1990 console with a 2005 interface. The world of audio interfacing doesn't stand still. Think of all the money you've saved by not buying a new console in all this time.

If you only need two channels of level conversion, much as I'm hesitant to recommend something this cheap that's in your prescious montior path, the Samson C-Convert (http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1699&brandID=2) will fill the bill. If you need to convert 8 channels from -10 to +4 (one way only - the knobs on your console probably go down far enough so that you can feed it with the +4 outputs) Aphex (http://www.aphex.com/228.htm) makes a nice unit.

You can't continue to live in a cave for the rest of your life. Join the "professional" revolution. ;)

DemoKing

01-05-2006, 07:03 PM

So far, not much to say as I haven't had a chance to give it a run and put it under pressure.

So far though, no "annoying whine" that a few people have mentioned. I wonder if this isn't a problem amongst other equipment or certain combinations thereof.... grounding issues maybe?

Listening to about 4-5 songs from different bands/projects, I must say that I can hear the difference between the 400F and the Delta 1010. Its a pretty obvious difference. Not a huge difference in my untreated room, but enough to say "ahhhh" The high end is very, ummm, clear and present, if that makes sense to you. Not present in a boosted 12k kind of way, but present in that things are more clear, open, "clean". The music seems to be more outside of the speakers now. More 3D-ish.

The drivers loaded up in just a few seconds flat and within 1 minute I was passing audio. No problems or hangups (aside from having to install windows SP1 to get the drivers to install, but I guess I should have done that 3 years ago.)

The box feels sturdy enough, looks nice, and is surprising shallow. Its probably like 4 inches back into the rack. Come to think of it, I guess the Delta is about the same.

Turn off your monitors before you turn off the 400F though unless you want to buy new tweets.

More to come when I really get huffing with it in the next day or two. Anyone else had thier hands on one yet? Craig Anderton is doing a very good review over at his forum too.
__________________

DemoKing

01-05-2006, 07:04 PM

-Much later post than the last one, even though at the same time right now, these 2 are a day apart-

Allright, I've been installing Sonar 5 P and DFHS all day, and thats kept me busy.
The WDM drivers would not work for me with Sonar 5. I tried and tried. THe ASIO drivers worked immediatly. But, with ASIO, the latency slider doesnt seem to do anything. Normal?
Things seem "ok" so far. I have a couple of issues to work through. FOr instance, the little music it plays when you shut it down. It has some digital static in it. Not terrible, but there.
Also, I'm not sure if Sonar is smart enough to get around this, but I record enabled 10 tracks, set all 10 to the same input and played guitar though the bos. With all 10 enabled (only one being onitored, the rest with the input monitoring turned off) there was static. Slowly turning off all the record buttons down to about only 2-3 of them on got rid of the static. Any idea why it did this?
MOre to come, I have a LOT to learn. In the same 2 days I've gotten the 400F, a Yamaha RM50, Sonar 5, DFHS, and a headache.
The DI on the 400F seems to sound very nice and clean.
More to come.

cgoobes

01-06-2006, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
[B]This is the sort of thing that you run into when trying to use a 1990 console with a 2005 interface. The world of audio interfacing doesn't stand still.

Hey Mike...
its a 70's board, not a 90's, and its really not a matter of saving money... this board was not cheap. It was designed to feed a certain catagory of tape machine with its 8 busses.

The issue here is not that my board is crappy... its that this is the only device that i have seen in this catagory of product that doesnt have this specific feature. Every competing product below and above its price range seems to have this feature... In fact, currently i have a MOTU 896HD (which i am very dissatisfied with for lots of reasons), but it has a +4 / -10 switch on every channel.

cgoobes

01-06-2006, 02:28 AM

If you need to convert 8 channels from -10 to +4 (one way only - the knobs on your console probably go down far enough so that you can feed it with the +4 outputs) Aphex makes a nice unit.

You can't continue to live in a cave for the rest of your life. Join the "professional" revolution. ;) [/B]

Thanks for the suggestion on the aphex unit...

Unfortunatly, it has RCA ins, and XLR outputs... neither of which help in this case.

I really don't see how this is a matter of professional vs non professional. Really this is just a matter of a BIG company forgettting a small detail and not wanting to spend a small amount of effort to fix it. If you read back through this forum, there are plenty of other people who have expressed concern that the line level inputs do not have enough sensitivity. This could probably be dealt with by mackie in the software control panel. But it probably won't happen. Its just unfortunate that when I get rid of the 896HD, I will be having to spend more to do the same thing rather than less.

MikeRivers

01-06-2006, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by cgoobes
its a 70's board, not a 90's, and its really not a matter of saving money... this board was not cheap. It was designed to feed a certain catagory of tape machine with its 8 busses. Ohhhh! Vintage! But you hit the nail on the head - it was designed to feed a certain category of tape machine, and that's not what you're looking to use it for. And I never meant to imply that it was crappy, it's just not plug-in compatible with the 400F, but there are ways that you can deal with that if you want to continue to use the board.

By the way, some boards of that vintage had switches to select -10/+4 levels. Why pick on Mackie? Why not complain to Studiomaster? ;)this is the only device that i have seen in this catagory of product that doesnt have this specific feature. Every competing product below and above its price range seems to have this feature... In fact, currently i have a MOTU 896HD (which i am very dissatisfied with for lots of reasons), but it has a +4 / -10 switch on every channel. If you look hard enough, you can find something wrong with everything you look at. Thanks for the suggestion on the aphex unit...

Unfortunatly, it has RCA ins, and XLR outputs... neither of which help in this case.
So what does your board have, RCA in/out? TRS? XLR? Is your problem with the Aphex that you'll have to buy or make new cables too? The idea of the Aphex is that it boosts output levels that are too low. If your board has -10 dBV bus outputs, the Aphex box will boost those to ample level so that you can slam the meters on the 400F, but, yes, you'll need cables that go from the XLR outputs of the Aphex to the 1/4" TRS inputs of the 400F.

As far as sending the 400F outputs back to -10 dBV inputs on the console, that's no problem. Just turn down the input trims on the board or the output level of the 400F. Worst case, if there's not enough range on the control, you can put a 10 dB pad in line with the outputs. You can build this into a 1/4" plug with just two resistors. Again, connectors may not match the cables you have, but that's no big deal. I really don't see how this is a matter of professional vs non professional. Really this is just a matter of a BIG company forgettting a small detail and not wanting to spend a small amount of effort to fix it. If you read back through this forum, there are plenty of other people who have expressed concern that the line level inputs do not have enough sensitivity. This could probably be dealt with by mackie in the software control panel.I never liked the "professional" and "non professional" or "semi-pro" labels, but that's the way the industry has evolved. Back in the '70s, one of the ways that manufacturers could make gear as affordable as it was back then was to use a lower operating level. Today that's not necessary. And while we hear from the few coming here with concerns, there is a LOT more equipment in use today than uses the nominal +4 dBu operating level thnan the -10 dBV operating level. A company can't go on supporting old technology forever. Those who do are either charging more for it or are giving you less of other things that you want. You don't get something for nothing.

As far as a simple change in the software control panel, that's not the way to do it. The only way to boost a low input level in software is to multiply it, along with all the noise that comes along with the signal. What there needs to be is greater input sensitivity at the input of the A/D converter, and that's a hardware thing. They could put gain (hardware) at the input, but that would be extra cost and extra noise for those who don't need it.

Here's an example. I have a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3 to which they "added" mic input capability with a firmware update. It puts 30 dB of gain after the input stage (which is what Mackie could do in software) but in the mic-in mode, the input is noisier than a cassette. So I use a preamp (a Mackie mixer, most often) when I want to use it with my mics.

This is a straightforward decision process - you choose what you can best work with. If it's too much trouble for you to deal with the level differences and/or connector types, pick another interface (but you'll probably pay more). If you acquired a vintage LA2 limiter (it has nominal +4 dBu in and out, and on barrier terminals, to boot) would you complain to UREI that it didn't accommodate the -10 levels on your console and you couldn't set the threshold low enough? Or would you adapt it and use it?

Keep your board if you like it, but bring it up to date so that you can use it with equipment that you can buy today.

cgoobes

01-08-2006, 02:58 AM

Presonus firepod has a Line Trim +/-20dB

M-audio Delta 1010 has +4, 0, -10 switch... software controlled

MOTU 896HD has +4, -10 switches on every channel

Digidesign 002 has +4, -10 switches

Digidesign HD192 has 2 completely seperate input banks for +4 and -10 connections.

Fireface 800 has +4, -10 inputs switchable via software.

RME ADI8DS has +4, -10 levels software controlled.

Echo Firewire 8 and 12 both have +4,-10 input levels... software configurable.

I cant think of any more interfaces right now... but honestly, ive never heard of a single interface without this feature with the exception of the mackies. Im sure its possible to find some, but these are the Pro level companies that compete directly with mackie and the product we are disgussing. We arent talking about a limiter here... we are disgussing a unit that is designed to accept line level inputs and convert them to a digital signal. Any unit that is competitive in this market must be able to accomidate for line signals of various levels. There is really no reason to defend Mackie in this case.

MikeRivers

01-08-2006, 05:16 AM

we are disgussing a unit that is designed to accept line level inputs and convert them to a digital signal. Any unit that is competitive in this market must be able to accomidate for line signals of various levels. [/B]I agree with you there. However, "line signals of various levels" covers a lot of ground. Apparently Mackie believes that the range of their input level control was sufficient and that a switch isn't necessary - the knob will cover it. Some people have found that for their sources, it is not. This is a legitimate problem for some, but not for all users. I guess Mackie can live with it. They don't have to get all the business. ;)

Still, just having a switch doesn't necessarily solve everyone's problems. What you need to know, and what's rarely specified, is the minimum input level for full scale digital output. You also need to know the maximum output level of the device you want to use as the input source. Then and only then will you know if you can hit full scale (assuming that's your goal) without further amplification.

In the race to provide numbers on the spec sheet for dynamic range close to the theoretical limit, rather than input sensitivity getting greater, maximum output level is getting higher and input level is following i, keeping the gain about the same, just moving further up the voltage scalet. It's easeir to get a working dyanmic range of 100 dB or more if your maximum output is +24 dBu than if it's +6 dBV. It's not for lack of concern with interfacing "low level" equipment that's driving this, it's concern that customers who make their choices primarily by reading spec sheets will reject a device categorically because it doesn't look good on paper. Sadly, our industry has come to that.

Of course it would be possible to add more gain, but to do that without compromising the all-powerful spec sheet would add cost for everyone. And since many do not need that extra gain, the all-powerful price sheet starts driving engineering decisions. (cost is now an important engineering parameter)

So it's not unreasonable to make the compromise that will give the majority of the users a good spec sheet and good real world performance at a good price. If you choose to use it with a device that needs additional amplification, you (and only you, not every customer) can pay smething extra for that and not peanalize everyone else. Alternately, you can choose to use a different interface if you can find one that matchesup better with your console.

I've lost track now., Do ou currently own a 400F, or are you still shopping? If you have one, buy one of those others with a switch, and compare it with the 400F. See if the switch works magic for you. If it does, return the 400F. If it doesn't, then keep looking, spend the bucks to add the gain you need, or don't worry about a fee dB less than full scale recording. Bullying Mackie isn't going to help.

If I thought they really made a bad design decision, I'd say so. I don't have a 400F to evaluate myself, so I can't fairly make that call. At this point, I'm not defending Mackie, I'm just trying to see my way through their design decisions, and so far it makes sense to me. I think that your defense of a competing product simply because it has a switch that the 400F doesn't isn't fully developed yet. You can, and should do better if you want to make your case.

Give me some data. What's the maximum output level of your console? (and don't say "-10" because that isn't it) What's the maximum input sensitivity of the line inputs of the 400F? (I'm still waiting for a quantitative measurement) Give me the same data for the competition. Then we'll have something we can compare.

Augdog

01-08-2006, 02:49 PM

While I think the 400f is a great interface, I do believe it was a poor design decision to not put +4, -10 switches on line inputs 5 - 8. I am not an expert at technical issues, so I can only give you my real world experiences with using these inputs.

I own a lot of external gear, but so far I've only found one piece that works well in one of these inputs (a JoeMeek mic pre). My Yamaha sound module and my Roland drum machine do not provide high enough output to be useable, and even my $1,000 Mesa Rectifier recording preamp doesn't cut it. I have a Line 6 Pod that, per the owner's manual, is supposed to work with +4 balanced equipment. However, even with the master volume and output level controls cranked, it just manages to hit the -10 mark on the input level meter of the matrix mixer.

The fact Mackie doesn't mention in the owner's manual that these inputs are suitable only for +4 equipment is disappointing. I like to read the owner's manual before I buy something to help determine if a product is suitable for me, and this information should be included. That said, I have never considered returning it because the sound is too good. But for me, it's a 5-input interface rather that an 8-input interface, and I would have liked to know that before I bought it.

MikeRivers

01-09-2006, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Augdog
The fact Mackie doesn't mention in the owner's manual that these inputs are suitable only for +4 equipment is disappointing.I don't think they would state it that way in the manual. What we really need here, and I've said it a few times in this discussion, and I'll say it again, is a clear statement of input senstivity. Conversely, things with outputs need to clearly state the maximum output level. That way you could put two and two (or +20 dBu in for 0 dBFS and +6 dBV maximum output level) together and get -12 dBFS.

My Ampex AG-440 tape deck is as professional as they come, and I align it so that at my chosen reference fluxivity, 0 VU is +4 dBu out - most definitely a "+4" piece of gear. But tape decks typically have about 10 dB of headroom before starting to sound too nasty (some call it "warm analog tape compression" when you go beyond this), so it's reasonable to consider that it's maximum output level is +14 dBu. Plug that into a 400F and you'll be recording at least 6 dB below full scale, about the same as a piece of "-10" gear that has 20 dB of headroom.

So it's not as simple as saying "+4 / -10" any more. You need to understand what's what, and you need to understand what that specification means, for both inputs and outputs.

It's unfortunate that so many people think that because they can't push the level meters all the way up that their system is unusable. But theyr'e the ones spending the money.

cgoobes

01-10-2006, 07:04 AM

Ok, to begin with... I definatly understand the concept of how actual sensitivity is independant of your reference level for 0 full scale.

In answer to your question... my current setup is a MOTU 896HD... This unit has 3 settings for its input sensitivity. One is a +4 fixed. One is a Mic, and the Third is a -10 setting. The cool thing about the negative 10 setting is that the preamp knob can give your 14 decibles of analog gain on your line inputs even with the already lowered reference level of -10. This has come in very usefull quite often.

Using my sweet old console, and keeping the switch in the +4 position, I am able to get about -8 decibles from full scale.

But this is not a realistic way to record. The only way the level gets so high is because its got faders on each bus output that have a fair amount of gain above unity. But doing this causes clipping if you have any kind of reasonable level from the pre on the board entering the bus path. The headroom on the busses aren't huge... They will create a fairly square wave once they start hitting -10 below full scale.

Obviously, with a nice board that has nice pres like this... its usually best to keep the output bus faders to unity or just above and boost the pre as much as possible without clipping the pre stage.

I dont know what the actual voltage the console outputs when it does this.

What I can tell you is that to have the signal going out the direct outputs off the pres, or to use the busses at unity is not a viable option with a +4 reference level. If you keep your analog signal chain proper in this situation, you average peaks coming in between -20 and -14 below full scale... this puts the majority of your signal well below that. And even with 24 bit, id prefer not to HIt a digital system with an RMS level thats pushing -50 full scale. I will also NOT compress to tape, so dont even suggest it.

As far as the sensitivity at -10 vs +4 on the mackie versus the MOTU or any other device.... I was under the impression that the levels represented a standard voltage level that would create 0 full scale..... I could be very wrong about this though...... I can tell you that using the MOTU and the old sound card i had... a m-audio delta 44,... the +4 and -10 levels caused what i percieved to be the same results as far as relative distance from 0 full scale from the same console.

Um what i meant is that sending the same level signal out the same console into two different cards produced the same results depending on thier chosen +4 or -10 reference level. (these are not scientific results... only eyeball levels) Both measurements were done on cakewalk sonar.

SO WHAT AM I SAYING WITH ALL THIS CRAP?????

Once again.... This is a problem. Mackie should have included a -10 input switch. All their competitors have it. Lots of their customers NEED it. Its a useful tool for any serious engineer to have. This single relatively small thing is definatly keeping me from spending my 700 bucks.

ALso, if the only way to correct this is a software fix that also brings up the noise floor through some kind of multiplier... Id still prefer that because it allows you to take advantage of more of those 24 bits. Thats kinda important in our stupid digital world.

MikeRivers

01-10-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by cgoobes
As far as the sensitivity at -10 vs +4 on the mackie versus the MOTU or any other device.... I was under the impression that the levels represented a standard voltage level that would create 0 full scale..... I could be very wrong about this though......And you're correct - you ARE wrong. There is no standard relationship between analog input level and digital recording level. There are a few conventions, some of which are meaningful, others are meaningless. The ones that are meaningful are generally stated as some number of dB below FS for a given input level, for example -16 dBFS = +4 dBu. The meaningless ones are the ones that say +4 or -10 and nothing else. However, it is possible to find some combinations that work even if you don't know the specifications. But to find those, you just have to try them.

I understand your frustration that the 400F won't be a good match to your console. Get over it. Look elsewhere. Or wait for Mackie's next model - perhaps they're taking some of this gaff to heart and will offer more gain on future interfaces. But it's unlikely that the 400F is going to change. Surely they don't have more analog gain than they're offering and have a fixed attenuator in there - that would only compromise the S/N specifications, and they surely wouldn't want to do that. So I suspect that there just isn't as much gain on the line inputs as you would like. The only way that's going to change is by changing the hardware. Once again.... This is a problem. Mackie should have included a -10 input switch.No, that's not the problem. Mackie should have more sensitivity on their line inputs. Perhaps this isn't an area in which they felt it was necessary to compete, and to increase the sensitivity would compromise some performance area in which they beat the competiton. Maybe you don't care about that, you just want to get your record levels up. Fair enough. Speak with your wallet. Buy the competition.
ALso, if the only way to correct this is a software fix that also brings up the noise floor through some kind of multiplier... Id still prefer that because it allows you to take advantage of more of those 24 bits. Thats kinda important in our stupid digital world. No, you won't be taking advantage of all of those 24 bits. You'll just be filling them with noise. There's no difference between adding digital gain at the front of the storage medium or at the back. Creating a -10 switch by adding 12 dB of gain on the digital side of the A/D converter would make your meters read higher but would be no different functionally from you adding as much gain as you wanted in your DAW when mixing.

I'm not trying to talk you into buying a 400F if you don't like the way it works or you're mad at the company But understand how these things work, and how they don't work. Yes, it would defiinitely be better for you if there was some gain at the input to boost your console's signal level up to the point where the meters could hit the pin.

But you have an old console designed at a time when you'd pay a premium price for higher operating level. Mackie designed the unit for best performance with modern equipment.

Think of the opposite situation. Suppose you had a sound card that you bought years ago that you really like and you don't want to replace, and it has a nominal input sensitivity of -10 dBV (and no +4 switch). Now you buy a new console and find that you have to run the outputs very low in order not to overdrive the input of your sound card. Woud you complain because the console didn't have a +4/-10 swich?

Mackie will happily sell you a console with nice preamps and a nice EQ section that will work fine with the 400F. You can buy an amplifier to boost your console's outputs and use it with a 400F. Or you can buy another interface that's a better match for the console of your choice. This is what system engineering is all about - putting things together so that they work right, and choosing things that work right togethger. It's not up to the system engineer to change a manufacturer's design, it's up to him to find a manufacturer who makes what he needs to fit into the system, or, barring that, add additional interfacing equipment so that the things that he wants to use work together.

[Later this afternoon]
I was browsing the Mackie Digital X Bus (dxb) manual and, bless their pea pickin' hearts, they have all this sensitivity information in the Technical Info section. For example, it says:

Line Input Card, 1 kHz tone with 150 ohm source (yes it has a -10/+4 switch) With +4 dBu input reference
0 dBFS = +24.3 dBu With -10 dBV input reference
0 dBFS = +11 dBV
Now +24.3 dBu is a whoppin' big signal, and relative to your run-of-the-mill -10 dBV device (most of them are designed for around 15 dB of headroom) +11 dBV is a pretty hot signal. So perhaps this is sort of a "Mackie standard" for levels.

kang

01-10-2006, 12:11 PM

I will say this. Using my Sanamp Bass Driver with the level all the way up and the gain at a reasonable level, playing as hard as I can, the mackie peaks at about -8db.

Using my EHX 12ay7 mic pre's having them barely clip, the levels on the mackie go up to about -9db. On my delta 1010lt at the +4 setting the clipping on the EHX pre's pretty much matched exactly the clipping in the software.

So based on this, for me the mackies do have a low input for 5-8, even for modern equipment. In fact it seems even way lower than a normal +4 setting.

Not a huge deal, but a minor frustration since I like my levels to be at least peaking at -6db.

YMMV

subtlearts

01-11-2006, 09:16 AM

I realize am way late in the game here, but I want to weigh in on something and also to see what others, especially (hopefully) those with more experience or technical background than myself, might be thinking about an issue which strangely has received very little coverage in this now-epic review: the inserts...

Background: I currently have an Echo Mona with a laptop adaptor, which I have used extensively and am generally very happy with, but I have recently started to think that I would very much like to have some kind of input dynamics control. I personally cannot understand, for example, why virtually no-one is putting analog compressor/limiter circuits into these all-in-one interfaces, or better yet - something approaching a channel-strip level of control. Edirol is the only exception I know of here, but it's just a limiter and from all reports the pres are so weak that they might as well not have bothered (I haven't tried them myself, so that is entirely based on hearsay, but it does seem to be pretty much the consensus).

However, so it is, and we must find a way to work with what is available. It seems to me that if the pres are 'coupled' to the converters in a manner of speaking, or in any case pass through DSP on the unit that is not controlling dynamics in some clever way (such as the DBX Type IV conversion - I wonder if it might be possible for something like this to be part of the maybe-one-day Mackie DSP upgrade for the 400f?), then no matter how pristine the pres and converters, there's a reasonable chance that a hot signal will destroy a take - quite possibly the take - with digital clipping. I wish I could say I had not learned this the hard way (not to mention that one of the main things I record is extended, improvised solo piano concerts where there is by definition only one take)...

I also wish I had a solution for it in my current setup, which otherwise, again, I am quite content with, but sadly the MONA, like almost all such products, also lacks inserts. So I would need to add external pres/compressor/limiter or a channel strip anyway, making the Mona pres redundant. As I look around at options, the very positive buzz on the ONYX pres makes me think, hey, I could sell the MONA and my desktop sound card (RME DIGI96), get better spec'd and probably somewhat better sounding pres and converters to use with both rigs, with inserts for dynamics control (or whatever other outboard one might have lying around and want to print to disk) to boot.

The only other units I have seen that offer inserts are the Echo AudioFire8 and the Presonus Firepod, which again, strangely, saw very little press here (from my afternoon spent skimming through it all) despite the fact that on the surface it would seem they're pretty close competitors. And the Firepod only offers inserts on two of its 8 mic channels, although they are balanced, which is a nice touch. Even the much more expensive Fireface has no inserts at all.

If I didn't live in Germany, where Mackie does not seem to be very proactive on distribution and consequently the 400f is a) just appearing; b) considerably more expensive; and c) not actually in stock at most dealers - you have to order it and wait and hope for several weeks, then take your chances with support - I'd already have one and be checking it out against the Mona and drawing my own conclusions. As it is, I have to consider that the Firepod is in stock and more than $250 (equivalent) cheaper (same with the AudioFire 8).

So I am left with questions: do I really need those extra inserts? Are 8 quite good pres and 96k unquestionably less desirable than 4 probably slightly better ones and 192k? Is a wall-wart really inherently that much worse than a switched-mode internal power supply? Is Traktion a big enough plus to make up the difference when I already have DAW software I'm happy with (Sonar 5)? Would my money really, in the end, be better spent on a couple of midrange channel strips (I'm looking seriously at the Safe Sound P1, which has seen some downright glowing press but, evidently, limited mainstream success)? Is the lack of strong local support for the Mackie too big a risk?

I don't expect that anyone can give me conclusive answers to these questions, and of course I will have to make my own mind up in the end, but I thought I'd throw them into the fire and see if any sparks fly. Thanks to everyone for the amazing amount of information and opinion already here...

- tobias tinker, composer
Broken Saints online series and DVD

MikeRivers

01-12-2006, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by subtlearts
I have recently started to think that I would very much like to have some kind of input dynamics control. I personally cannot understand, for example, why virtually no-one is putting analog compressor/limiter circuits into these all-in-one interfaces , or better yet - something approaching a channel-strip level of control. This is a fickle industry, and trends tend to change pretty fast. The trend today, with all the wonderful plug-ins and the huge number of people who use computer-based DAWs, is to record the purest signal possible, and then make decisions on how you're going to bugger it up once the track is recorded. We used to want to keep recording levels as high as possible to get the best signal-to-noise ratio with our analog recorders, and best low level resolution on our 16-bit digital recorders that could barely make 12 accurate bits on a good day. But this is no longer necessary with today's 24-bit A/D converters. So rather than put some compression on the track that you may not like later on, leave it with its full dynamic range (that you can capture, though may not be able to use in the mix) and make your decisions later. And of course popular manufacturers, follow, rather than buck trends.

That being said, the inclusion of inserts in the analog signal path between mic premap and A/D converter is a pretty decent idea.
It seems to me that if the pres are 'coupled' to the converters in a manner of speaking, or in any case pass through DSP on the unit that is not controlling dynamics in some clever way (such as the DBX Type IV conversion - I wonder if it might be possible for something like this to be part of the maybe-one-day Mackie DSP upgrade for the 400f?),The thing you need to be careful with there is how long it takes for the audio to get through that extra stage of signal processing. These days, DSP is almost always cheaper than VCAs or Vactrols, so that's the way they'd likely do it (and EQ, too). All of this adds delay ("latency") which can be very annoying to a singer trying to gauge how his or her voice sounds while listening on headphones. no matter how pristine the pres and converters, there's a reasonable chance that a hot signal will destroy a takeThat's where the "new school" comes in. You can allow enough headroom so that a loud signal doesn't destroy a take. And a compressor squashing 30 dB can sound pretty ugly, too. It's not something you'd want to live with, at least not without doing a re-take. Chances are a pianist who hits a note 20 dB louder than the rest of his performance isn't going to be satisfied with that performance anyway. But as you say, there are no re-takes with live music. As the engineer, you need some basic understanding of the music (classical engineers all know how to read a score) and set the gain intellgently. And there's nothing wrong with adjusting the gain during the performance if you find it's necessary. sadly the MONA, like almost all such products, also lacks inserts. So I would need to add external pres/compressor/limiter or a channel strip anyway, making the Mona pres redundant.This is the cry of the contemporary buyer of just about everything. You don't need the preamps so why should you have to pay for them? You probalby don't need the camera on your telephone or the microprocessor in your coffee pot either - but that's what the manufacturers tell you that you should have, so that's what they make. At least you have the option of using the preamp or not. So I am left with questions: do I really need those extra inserts? Are 8 quite good pres and 96k unquestionably less desirable than 4 probably slightly better ones and 192k?Well, what you need depends on what you recortd. And nobody says that you HAVE to work in the "no inserts, we'll do it later" mode if it's your preference to do otherwise. But you'll just have to choose equpiment that lets you work as you want, and that might mean buying more than the bare minimum design that could do the job, because you can't always buy that. Clearly the best situation is to have separate boxes for everything, so you can plug together what you need when you need it, and leave it out when you don't, but that's often the most expensive approach. Forget 192 kHz. That's something the manufacturers want to sell you that you don't need. But you're geting it for free so you don't have to use it. Is a wall-wart really inherently that much worse than a switched-mode internal power supply? Is Traktion a big enough plus to make up the difference when I already have DAW software I'm happy with (Sonar 5)?A wall wart will save you money, and it has the advantage that it's cheap to replace if it ever fails. Also, it gets a source of hum away from the analog components, making the mechanical design of the unit less critical. Wall warts can be a pain but they have some advantages too. No need to change your software if you like what you have. Tracktion is another "freebie" that you don't have the option of not getting and not paying for. Would my money really, in the end, be better spent on a couple of midrange channel strips (I'm looking seriously at the Safe Sound P1, which has seen some downright glowing press but, evidently, limited mainstream success)? Is the lack of strong local support for the Mackie too big a risk?Could be. I've never heard of the Safe Sound. I don't know what's up with Mackie support in Europe. They say that they're working on bringing it up to the level that it is in the US (which seems to be satisfactory to just about everyone) but I still hear of far more support (and distribution) issues coming from Europe. If you didn't need support, it wouldn't be a problem, but apparently at least you need support at the dealer level so that if you get a dud, your dealer will replace it for you, and if it breaks in a few years, he can get it fixed for you if you still want it (and don't think that the manufacturers don't plan on a certain amount of users deciding to discard rather than repair their products after a while). But if there's a design flaw and a trip to the shop for a modification is necesary, Mackie Europe does seem to be slower on the tirgger than the US. You just have to decide what risks to take and when to take them.

subtlearts

01-12-2006, 05:08 PM

Thanks Mike, that was more or less exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. Some of it has already been on my mind, but it's very good to have an informed and reasoned perspective. I was already pretty much not making 192k any kind of issue at all, for all the obvious reasons, but even knowing better it's hard not to get caught in the numbers game sometimes.

All in all it seems I should take a good look at possibly sticking with what I have for a while longer at least, despite the 400f's many charms. In fact for the most part I do not have terrible difficulty getting a respectable but safe level for most of what I record (with all its dynamic range intact, as you point out). I do sometimes feel wierd about using plug-ins for more or less everything, and when I do get the chance to record in a studio with a great analog desk and some good outboard, going to nice fat 2" tape if possible, it makes me wonder a bit about this whole digital revolution. But at the end of the day it has made a lot of things possible that were out of reach before, so it seems the better path to stay focused and use what is at hand to create - rather than imagining that everathing would be better with more or different gear.

Thanks again for the reality check - but I do have the feeling a decent analog channel strip might be in the cards for me sometime soon.

DemoKing

01-13-2006, 01:36 AM

A note on the low gain "problem" on 5-8...

check this out...
Today I ran a Sennheiser MD-441, a notoriously low output microphone, on a snare into a Brent Averill API. At the lowest gain setting on the preamp, it was clipping the converters. I had to engage the pad. Nuff said on that subject. This thing is fine.

Any more myths I need to bust while I'm at it?

MikeRivers

01-13-2006, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by DemoKing
Any more myths I need to bust while I'm at it? Only the one that 400Fs will now come equipped with API preamps as a result of your demonstration of its high gain and maximum output level.

What you''ve demonstrated is that it's possible to get enough level out of an off-the-shelf (sort of) box that will get the 400F up to full scale. I could do that with a Hewlett Packard 200CD oscillator, too (which can be had for $25). That doesn't help someone who wants to plug a keyboard into a jack on the 400F, however.

DemoKing

01-13-2006, 01:50 PM

Yeah, but it tells me that there is NOT a problem. If they want to plug in a keyboard, perhaps they should use the DI on the front, which is the first place I would have considered using. Or a seperate DI box on the way in might help. Perhaps its an impedence thing that a DI would correct? Maybe not. I dont know much about those kind of things (impedence, etc), but I do know that they can pose problems sometimes if not done correctly.
Personally, I find no problems with those inputs at all. If anything, they might be a tad too hot. I used inputs 6-10 with the direct outs from a Soundcraft board, and again, I was getting full scale without lighting up the clip lights on the Soundcraft channels.
In my opinion, its perfect in that respect. It does what it was designed for.

Anyway, I'm digging it. I havent got to use the API or the converters in the 400F on anything but drums so far, and tonight or tomorrow I get to put them on dirty guitar cabs, which I'm really lookig forward to and that should tell me a LOT more about both pieces when I'm finished.

mikar

01-13-2006, 06:51 PM

I readed a big part of the thread but i didn't find the following problem (excuse me if it has already been covered...):
When i power on or power off the unit there is a really huge pop!! This is really a problem even if we should always power on the monitors at last and power off at first... So is it a pb with my onyx unit?

Pleasant

01-13-2006, 09:48 PM

DemoKing:

Agreed. I don't need gain on 5-8, and am glad it's not there. I want straight wire from my outboard preamps, compressors, etc. into the converters.

If one needs gain for his -10 stuff, one should use the preamps/DI.

If one thinks he'll need to use keyboard etc, AND four mics all at the same time, look to another interface.

I'm happy with Mackie's design decision.

- P

Anderton

01-13-2006, 11:32 PM

<<When i power on or power off the unit there is a really huge pop!! This is really a problem even if we should always power on the monitors at last and power off at first... So is it a pb with my onyx unit?>>

I'm so in the habit of turning on speakers LAST that I don't really even know any more if something pops...I just assume it does and act accordingly.

I know it's not hard electronically to add a delayed audio turn on, but that involves putting something in the signal path (relay, CMOS switch, whatever) and that's not a happy thing for purists.

On a different subject...I had NO IDEA a pro review could go on for this long!! I keep wanting to unstick it and start another one, but the questions keep coming...well, I do plan to unstick this before leaving for NAMM, so it's time to get in any last comments.

But it sure is an amazing thread!! Y'all are great.

mikar

01-14-2006, 03:02 AM

I've another pb on the control room out: when the gain is around 0, i have a very loud crash sound! I've put symetric jack... Again, is it only my unit?

DemoKing

01-14-2006, 03:23 AM

Crash sound? More detail. Explain.

Ok guys, I finished the drum tracking tonight and started on bass, and played around with a little dirty guitar. The bass player used a Warwick 5 string, we started fidgeting with his bass, put an MD421 --> API preamp on it and were about to start looking for tones when I told him to come in and try out the API DI instead. Keep in mind I just got the API this week. When we heard it, it sounded like his nice Ampeg amp through the 4x10 cabinet. We went with it.
Anyway, they finished up bass lines on a few songs, and they had to split for the night. I was free so I stuck around and messed with drum mixes a little. Then I thought, since I've been DYING to try the API on dirty guitars, I'd go plug in dudes guitar (unknown brand, EMG Silver pickups) and plug it into his Triple Rectifier, learn the song I was working on from the scratch track, and lay down some tracks and see how it sounded.
When I played back the 1st take, it sounded pretty decent.
Then....
I tracked the panned double track.
Holy shit.
It was one of those eye opening moments.
The clarity between RNP ---> Delta 1010 and the API --> Onyx 400F was VERY apparent. I had a single Sm57 on the cab, which I normally hate, placed rather randomly for scratch tracks, and it sounds fricking HUGE. Deliciously huge. I cant beleive it. My life is suddenly a lot easier. I'm thinking a 441 on this guitar cabinet tomorrow with some proper time for positioning will result in something unreal.
Anyway, today I had one of those "ahhhh" days. I found what I was missing. Very happy.

Note: I'm calling it an API, but it is indeed a Brent Averill 312a, which is thier API-like design. It sounds INCREDIBLE. Better than the MP-2-NV that I had here for a few days did. For $900 with Power supply, its a steal.
The Onyx preamps sound FANTASTIC on Overheads too. I'm really really pleased right now. Couldnt ask for much more.
Well, a Distressor.

mikar

01-14-2006, 03:48 AM

On the coutrol out, the right output has a very loud crash sound when turning the knob around zero! I am quite sure that my unit has a problem...i tested with different combination of cables and swithed the right and left monitor: it's always the right CR output that crashes...

MikeRivers

01-14-2006, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by DemoKing
If they want to plug in a keyboard, perhaps they should use the DI on the front, which is the first place I would have considered using. Or a seperate DI box on the way in might help. Perhaps its an impedence thing that a DI would correct? Maybe not.No, it's not an impedance thing. I don't know about the 400F, but on the Onxy mixers, the DI inputs have the same sensitivity as the Line inputs, the only difference being that the DI input has a higher impedance and is unbalanced. An outboard DI box going into one of the mic inputs would probably be an effective solution since the mic preamps have enough gain to bring this up to full clipping level.

PianoMania

01-14-2006, 10:30 AM

My monitor system has a remote control. I couldn't get along without it. I just "mute" the system when turning equipment on/off, works great.

composer

01-14-2006, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by PianoMania
My monitor system has a remote control. I couldn't get along without it. I just "mute" the system when turning equipment on/off, works great.

Which one do you have? Link please!

Also, it seems that at Mackie,....the problems continue.

Has Craig ever addressed all of these?

I have one on the way, and can always return it while also giving me the time to play with it while seeing what Mackie does (Driver wise) and what is new from Namm!

PianoMania

01-15-2006, 10:04 AM

I have a Sampson Resolve with sub-woofer. I got it from Sweetwater. I think they are excellent sounding, especially considering the price.

On another note I have a complaint with the knobs on the mic gains. They look good but don't work that well. The friction is too low which makes minute adjustments hard if your riding the meters while recording. The headphone knobs seem to have more friction than the others. This would be easy for Mackie to fix, or maybe its just my unit. My web site has a two files recorded with the 400F. Home pg & About us pg.
www.pianomania.com

MikeRivers

01-15-2006, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by PianoMania
II have a complaint with the knobs on the mic gains. They look good but don't work that well. The friction is too low which makes minute adjustments hard if your riding the meters while recording. So set them and leave them alone. You really shouldn't be riding the gain all that closely when tracking. When you see that it's too low, you turn it up, or if it's too high, you turn it down, but this control isn't meant to be a fader for making fine adjustments. You do that when you're mixing (or "mastering" if you're recording straight to stereo).

As a side note, on Greg Mackie's original Tapco 6000 mixer, he, personally, by hand, injected silicone oil into the pots to make them feel smoother and have some drag. He doesn't do that any more.

Anderton

01-16-2006, 12:53 AM

<<Also, it seems that at Mackie,....the problems continue.

Has Craig ever addressed all of these?>>

Well, I addressed any problems that I experienced, and in some cases, tried to duplicate problems others reported...but mostly it was very well behaved. Didn't have problems with the drivers either, even when multiple sound cards were hanging on the system.

At one point I had the Mackie 400F connected through FW, Digi Mbox through USB for a course I'm writing on using Reason with PT7, and the usual internal Creamware PCI audio interface. I kind of expected the computer to explode or something, but I guess the days of not being able to run multiple interfaces are pretty much over.

mandoman

01-18-2006, 01:24 PM

As this pro review draws to close and is no longer a 'sticky', I will post my final comments.

I had a chance to hook the 400f up to an amd64/xp machine and had no issues with drivers. Got really low asio latencies too, 5ms, without sweating it at all. Also, no firewhire whine that I noticed. I wish the latency was that good on my Mac!

I don't think I mentioned how nice the DI sounds on this unit. Acoustic instruments plugged direct sound amazingly good.

I too get a loud 'popping' when I turn off the unit. My self powered monitors are not cranked up too high, so I don't feel like the tweaters are being damaged. I do try and power the speakers off first just in case, but sometimes I forget or turn off the master power (turning off everything simultaneously) and I still get a pop.

Oh, looks like my return window is passing, so yes, I am keeping this unit. Though I threatened to exchange it for a Traveler many times, the overall sound of this unit is so good I will overlook the very small issues I'm having with this unit (ie, low line level, firewire whine, power off popping, etc). Overall, I am pretty satisfied with this unit.

Now I just hope Mackie will turn it up a notch working on the 400f Intel Mac drivers and console software - hope they don't lag getting those out!

OK, NAMM is almost here and I'm sure something cooler and better will come out, but that's just how it goes.

All the best,
Mandoman

Devnor

01-19-2006, 09:11 AM

First post; long time lurker.

I was all ready to pull the trigger on the 400F until I came across this thread & others like it. There seems to be a significant number of unresolved issues; especially on the mackie forums:

1. "whine" (seems like it's the luck of the draw)
2. Not enough gain with inputs 5-8 (using DI boxes into mic inputs for synthesizers is not acceptable).
3. No ADAT (not an issue but a feature that should be on this unit)
4. Outputs popping at power down.

Get it together Mackie!

Mackie already left me out in the cold with my failing LM3204.

I'll bite the bullet on the RME Fireface...in the end I feel like the Mackie would end up costing me in the same in lost time, frustration, returns & other issues.

DemoKing

01-20-2006, 12:33 AM

Once again, there is NO gain problem with the line inputs. They are perfect for WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR, mic preamps.
there is gain on the 1st 4 inputs if you need it. I cant possibly see anyone needing gain on all 10 inputs, thats ridiculous.

Pluf the keyboard into inputs 1-4 and you are set, whats the problem?

DemoKing

01-20-2006, 12:40 AM

By the way, I personally cant imagine a more rock solid device. Unless it just blows up in the next few weeks, I'm totally happy. A BUNCH of 10-in projects all week, and not one single solitary problem. The routing alone has made my life so much better. Being able to turn down the monitors without affecting the send to the headphone box, or being able to turn my monitors down when I want to tweak something in the headphones without the people in the room with me being able to hear what I'm doing... things like that are nice. I can affect headphone volume without affecting my own or the monitor volume. I love it. The Delta 1010 didnt give these kind of options. THe Delta happens to be one of the most solid boxes I know of. The 400F is no different in that respect as far as I can tell.

Funny thing about a lot of you guys, is one person says "I thought the AD sounded weird or brittle" and suddenly everyone is spewing it everywhere like its fact and they've heard it for themselves. It sounds good. Very good. Spew that around instead guys.

DemoKing

01-20-2006, 12:45 AM

And one more thing... MOST and I said MOST, devices hooked into and feeding signal to powered monitors will pop when you turn them on or off. Duh. Monitors go on last, go off 1st.
The 1st thing I learned years ago was, "board on 1st, board off last." Common sense guys. Don't plug your mic into the compressor before the preamp. Little things like that we should all know and do without thinking about it.
IMO, its not a problem with the device, its the user.

Lizardness

01-24-2006, 02:58 AM

Hiya Folks,

This is what initially brought me to this forum. Based on my best friend's adamant recommendations (Rodney Gene, who I've known since we were in our teens back in Santa Barbara) I ordered the Mackie Onyx 400F, a pair of Warfendale's, RNC, and another condenser mic.

While, I can play a number of instruments, write and sing; I know precious little about gear. Rodney, bless his heart, gave me a mixer, MXL condensor mic, an awesome verb, a rockin' J-Station, compressor, cords galore, a book, told me about VSTi's and all that cool stuff. He patiently brought me up to speed by telling me tricks of the trade like "cut before boost", explaining balanced and unbalanced and other nifty things I never considered. I had recorded things on a very primitive level but when I had played live, sound guys did all the tech things.

Rodney recommended a book by Mr. Anderton Called, "Home Recording for Musicians" which I bought off Amazon.com.

I got some positive feedback but all that gear and good advice can only go over so well with my sound blaster. Time to upgrade!

Before buying anything, I googled reviews (which led me to this site), called the companies and spoke to their tech people (who were ultra patient and very nice), visited the music stores, basically did my homework. I came full circle and ended up buying everything Rodney recommended, though I nearly bought a Motu 865HD.

I was surprised to find Rodney's messages here, as he didn't mention anything about it or this site. But he always has a lot of irons in the oven and probably had his field of thought directed elsewhere.

Even though I've been a long time composer I wasn't that interested in the technical side of of recording, preferring to look upon music from the composer/performers perspective. Maybe I was paranoid... superstitiously thinking that knowing too much technical wizardry would destroy my creativity?

I realize that now, that's not true and I'd better get my hands dirty, train my ears to distinguish frequencies, and learn how to really press the red button or at the end of my life I'm just gonna have a lot of demo-quality work collecting dust.

My ears are untrained and my "musical engineering ability" is nearly up to par with Koko the gorilla, but once I get the 400f I'll let you know my take on it.

I appreciate the forum and reading through the messages, opinions, positive and negative. Everything can have merit.

John

composer

01-24-2006, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by mandoman

I too get a loud 'popping' when I turn off the unit. My self powered monitors are not cranked up too high, so I don't feel like the tweaters are being damaged. I do try and power the speakers off first just in case, but sometimes I forget or turn off the master power (turning off everything simultaneously) and I still get a pop.

I did that a few times as well...used to be you could just turn down the console and all would be fine - doesn't seem to be the case with the 400F CR knob, anyway, it only happened twice, how would I know if the system (monitors (Blue Sky)) where damaged? I'm one of those paranoid people that think everything is broken sometimes.:D

Everything sounds fine..monitors on last, off first, I know I know...

My return window is about 35 days.....so we will see. After tracking a D16 and some vocals though (via a Rhode NT2A), I was like...hmmmmmmmm, most realistic sound I have heard 2nd to being in the main studio (PT HD) and sounded warm, accurate, sweet.
Latency about 4ms.

So, would I know if they where damaged?

thanks

mastersrhythm

02-01-2006, 05:05 PM

Need kindness from a stranger. I need your old 1.02 drivers. I spoke to tech support and emailed twice yesterday and today requesting the old drivers. I guess they are really busy.

I have a version of the 1.02 drivers that came on disc, but Mackie inadvertently sent out some that had only the ASIO. The ASIO works for me, but I need WDM and GSIF (at least WDM to test) as well because I’m running GigaStudio on the same machine as Sonar. The 1.05 version of ASIO and WDM do not work on my machine and I was hoping to test the old version of WDM and GSIF to see if they work. The 1.02 ASIO drivers work for me so there is a slight chance all of the 1.02 's will work as well.

Can someone please send me their version of the 1.02 drivers? Please send to mastersrhythm@gmail.com

Thank you so much! in Advance

tjs

03-01-2006, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Anderton
They’re as good as people say they are: Dead quiet, excellent detail on high frequency transients, clean…basically, what you want out of a mic pre. And hey, you get four of them! The real test for me came when compressing vocals. I kept lowering the threshold, but the noise didn’t come up because, well, the noise just isn’t there to bring up. These pres provide excellent bang for the buck, and perform superbly with condenser and dynamic mics.

What I don’t like is that the +48V phantom power switch applies phantom power to all mic pres simultaneously. Granted, the odds are remote that applying it accidentally to a modern dynamic mic will cause any damage, but it makes me nervous anyway.

The LED VU meters are adequate; there are four LEDs for -40, -20, -10, and OL (overload). For live, stand-alone use, there’s what I feel is a big gap between -10 and OL. Obviously, this isn’t an issue when feeding a DAW, where you usually have very high resolution meters. But for live, I would have preferred the four LEDs to be “activity” (anything below -20), -10, -6, and overload. No big deal, and maybe someone will post if that’s a dumb idea.

I also have to say something about the Instrument input mode. Man, my PRS sounded great! (I mean, even greater than usual :)). I’m very used to the sound of direct guitars, and as with mics, the Mackie pres deliver an incredibly clean, full sound with plenty of gain and a suitably high impedance. They come very, very close to my favorite direct box of all time, the Radial Engineering JDV Mk3 – which, incidentally, lists for half the price of the Onyx 400F.

There’s really not much else to say: These are great mic pres that provide outstanding quality at a very fair price.

How would you say the mic pres compare to the Presonus Firepod and Focusrite Saffire 26 Pro pres (which are the closest competition to the Onyx)?

gappie

03-01-2006, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by tjs

How would you say the mic pres compare to the Presonus Firepod and Focusrite Saffire 26 Pro pres (which are the closest competition to the Onyx)?

and to the rme fire face.

out of interest. my eyes started to hurt on page five. so much reading. so if this isue was already there dont mind answering. ill read this thread again. first post on this site of hc to say that this was an interesting read. thanks:thu:

mrdosun

03-13-2006, 08:23 PM

I read the whole 15 page on this thread and finally bought the 400F yesterday. I've used avalon, telefunkin, amek preamps, apogee a/d, digi 002, etc in the past. I must admit, I'm quite happy with the 400F right now. However, there is a HUM I can't get rid of. After some detective work, I pinpoint it to the phantom power supply. When it's off, no hum. When it's on, the room monitors gives a quiet but still audible hum. When I turn the control room volume all the way up, it goes away. It's not affecting the a/d since it's flatline on record. Do I need to isolate the power lines or do I have a defective unit? Any advice is appreciated, thanks...

mrdosun

03-13-2006, 08:52 PM

Upon further testing, everything unplugged. I plugged my headphones into the left channel of the CR output. Turned on the phantom power switch, the hum is audible! I really hope it's just my unit, because it has been perfect except for this hum. Is anyone else experiencing this?

strathound

03-27-2006, 10:05 AM

Sorry for the totally newb question ... but if you don't want to hook this thing up to a laptop, what other options to you have for storage of the tracks? Is there a cheap HD solution out there that integrates easily over firewire or other?

Thanks,

Michael

MikeRivers

03-27-2006, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by strathound
if you don't want to hook this thing up to a laptop, what other options to you have for storage of the tracks? Is there a cheap HD solution out there that integrates easily over firewire or other? The 400F is a computer (though not necessarily a laptop) interface so you have to hook it to a computer. In fact given its rack mount format, I suspect that most of these will get used with desktop computers, though they might get pulled out of the rack and taken on a remote with a laptop occasoinally.

The 400F isn't smart enough to stream directly to a Firewiere disk drive. On the other hand, you can put together a computer mighty cheap these days if you're modest about your requirements.

Frank-ProSounds

03-28-2006, 08:32 PM

Thank you for this review Craig. I've been glancing at this model in a few catalogs for couple days now and was curious. Good to see someone discussing it in such detail.

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 04:55 AM

FWIW the 400F doesn't have to be plugged into a computer, you can use it as a standalone front end to any type of recorder.

Anyhow I just bought mine. Not bad but there are a couple problems which should not be in a unit of this price:

1. A seriously loud pop whenever powering up or powering down, loud enough to damage monitors. Seriously unprofessional performance on this point. I see others are experiencing this same problem.

2. Some bus noise or "whine".

3. Flash settings not saving properly. (DSP mixer)

4. Firewire is not hot-swappable. If you add a firewire harddrive to the second firewire port while audio is on, the whole system glitches out.

5. Sometimes the unit is not found by windows and/or the software can't initialize the driver.

I think I'm going to have to return this unit to the store. The 400F has some great features but this unit has been a bit of a disappointment. The one thing I was impressed with is the latency. I ran Akoustik Piano through it at very low latency settings with no problem. If only it wasn't so noisy...

Anderton

04-04-2006, 03:06 PM

<<FWIW the 400F doesn't have to be plugged into a computer, you can use it as a standalone front end to any type of recorder.>>

True, but you can't set levels and routings without hooking it up to a computer. I think the concept is "program the thing at home then take it to a gig," e.g., as a keyboard mixer.

<<Anyhow I just bought mine. Not bad but there are a couple problems which should not be in a unit of this price:

1. A seriously loud pop whenever powering up or powering down, loud enough to damage monitors. Seriously unprofessional performance on this point. I see others are experiencing this same problem.>>

Yes, it was noted here. Definitely turn on the power amp last.

<<2. Some bus noise or "whine".>>

That was a mixed bag. Some people reported it, others didn't; some reported it with other interfaces, some didn't. There didn't seem to be any consistent pattern that related to specific laptops, gear, etc. The mystery never really was solved here, although I can say that mine didn't experience these issues.

<<3. Flash settings not saving properly. (DSP mixer)>>

Interesting. If I saved into the computer, it was there.

<<4. Firewire is not hot-swappable. If you add a firewire harddrive to the second firewire port while audio is on, the whole system glitches out.>>

Actually it seems that in general, hot-swapping FireWire is not a recommended practice. M-Audio was the first to point this out, but my Panasonic Camcorder states very specifically to make any IEEE 1394 connections to a computer with both units off. It's too bad, because one of the features of FireWire was supposed to be hot-swappability (is that a word?!?). Doesn't seem to work that way in the real world, though.

<<5. Sometimes the unit is not found by windows and/or the software can't initialize the driver.>>

It just occurred to me -- are you aware there is an updated driver on the Mackie web site? That may answer your concerns in (3) and (5).

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 03:14 PM

Hi. I have the latest drivers, see attached. Here's my position on this Craig, the loud popping when powering up/down indicates unprofessional quality. I've never heard of premium gear which does that.

I appreciate your response but it's little solace that others are not experiencing noise, etc. The unit I bought has problems which are not consistent with the product I was advertisted, i.e. nowhere in the Mackie marketing lingo does it mention a loud pop or Flash memory which doesn't work. :)

Anyhow I don't want to be negative, I bought it hoping it would live up to the quality claims but unfortunately luck wasn't on my side this time. But I'm happy for the people who are having less problems than me. Rock on. :)

claveslave

04-04-2006, 03:49 PM

FWIW, Mackie have acknowledged that some units exhibit the "whine" and have identified its source. They are prepared to replace the unit if they can't solve the problem over the phone. See this post on Mackie forums (http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000713)

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 04:15 PM

Hey thanks claveslave! I'll check that out. If Mackie support is committed to making things right then I will probably keep this unit. I'll keep you posted, again thanks very much for taking the time to share that link with me.

MikeRivers

04-04-2006, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
Hi. I have the latest drivers, see attached.Hart to tell, but that looks like a Windows screen. Mackie has a new Mac driver that they're opening up for beta testing. Here's my position on this Craig, the loud popping when powering up/down indicates unprofessional quality. I've never heard of premium gear which does that.Everyone is entitled to a postion, but I disagree. Lots of "professional" (whatever that means) gear causes a pop when it's powered on and off. Professionals know to turn their speaker systems on last and off first. And even many "professional" power amplifiers make a pop when turned on and off. Some do not. But this has never been a distinction between "professoinal" and not. I can sympathize with your disappointment if it doesn't work very well as an audio interface, but not your disappointment that it doesn't meet your standards as "professional." You're of course free to buy something else, but you must have had a good reason to buy the 400F - like it had the features you wanted, and cost what you were willing to pay. You can spend more or get less. Or simply get into the habit of turning your power amplifier or powered speakers off before you turn off the 400F. Besides, why would you want to turn it off when other things are on anyway?
Anyhow I don't want to be negative,Sure sounds like it to me. I bought it hoping it would live up to the quality claims but unfortunately luck wasn't on my side this time. But I'm happy for the people who are having less problems than me. Rock on. :) Of couse. We all expect that something we buy will live up to the expectations that we've been led to believe. Sometimes it does, sometmes it doesn't, sometimes we discover things we never thought to ask about that we aren't happy about. Some are deal-breakers, some are not. It's your choice.

What will you buy to replace it?

Anderton

04-04-2006, 05:43 PM

<<I'll check that out. If Mackie support is committed to making things right then I will probably keep this unit. >>

PLEASE let us know how making treats you and whether they can solve the problem.

I don't feel you're being overly negative, just disappointed that certain elements didn't meet expectations. I've run into the occasional computer thing that seems to work for everyone else on the planet but has some weird incompatibility with my system, so I sympathize.

The pop thing -- here's the deal. Anything that mutes or delays the onset of audio puts something in the signal path. If it's a reed relay, that's sort of pricey. If it's something like a FET or switching IC, then one could argue it might degrade quality. A lot of "purist" gear I've seen does not include turn-on delays for precisely that reason, so I've just always gotten into the habit of turning on monitors last. That doesn't help if you have a brief power outage though, unless your system is on a UPS.

Hey manufacturers, here's an idea: The Monitor Safety Box. It plugs into the wall, you plug your monitoring system into it. If the power is interrupted, it turns off power to the monitors until you turn it back on again manually. That way all hell could be breaking loose in your system, but your monitors would stay off while it was happening.

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 06:09 PM

Thanks very much for the info Craig. I see your point. I will definitely keep you posted. I'm going in now to trade in my unit for a new one so hopefully that will solve things. The Mackie retailer I'm dealing with is top notch. Great bunch of guys who always go the extra mile.

I installed Traktion. I must say that I'm fairly impressed with the performance although the GUI just absolutely kills me. I'm wondering if you have am opinion of the quality of recordings done via the 400F into Traktion vis-a-vis into Cubase/Nuendo?

I'm currently looking for a permanent non-ProTools recording solution (400F into a PC) and I would dearly love to avoid Steinberg given their utter lack of support and dongle system. Do you think that with some careful project management Traktion can give me the same end results, sonically speaking, as Cubase 3.0 SX for example?

Thank you for taking the time to offer me advice, that's very kind of you and I appreciate it. :)

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 07:02 PM

BTW one more question. Does anyone here have any insight or predictions regarding the development future of the Traktion software?

I notice here that the current build is over a year old, which is often a sign that there's no development team actively working on the product. For example I work for a software company and we release new builds every 2-3 months for all our products with major version upgrades every 12-18 months.

Anderton

04-04-2006, 10:55 PM

<<I notice here that the current build is over a year old, which is often a sign that there's no development team actively working on the product. >>

Didn't a new version just come out recently? I know that it has most certainly not been abandoned.

Music Calgary

04-04-2006, 11:40 PM

Ahhh, OK I see. Excellent, thanks very much. Their site is a bit tricky but I found it now, i.e. if you go to their web site's "Upgrade Area" in Firefox it crashes, in IE it says, "You have no registered version of Traktion 1".

That's *great* news. I'm going to start using Traktion as my main software and see how it goes. I feel very positive about this, I'm impressed with the performance so far. Sounds great too. I can get used to the GUI.

As for the unit, I've got the whine problem solved now however the popping on this new unit is incredibly loud. I'll get in the habit of turning off my monitors, etc. but it still freaks me out a bit. If someone kicks a cord or accidentally leans on a power strip... Anyhow it's not a deal breaker.

The only slight annoyance which remains is the Flash memory problem. If I open the 400F control panel in Windows, change the sample rate, and then close the window, it says, "Writing settings to flash memory" but when I re-open the control panel the settings were lost. I'll start a post in their support forum.

Thanks very much Craig, you've helped me a great deal. I'd really appreciate your opinion on the quality of Traktion's audio recording engine vis-a-vis Cubase sometime. If not, I understand, it's no doubt a tough issue to say anything truly conclusive about. Again, thanks.

d. gauss

04-04-2006, 11:54 PM

tried this in it's own thread but no responses, so i'll throw it in here:

has anybody used two 400f units daisy chained at the same time?
i.e. 8 pre ins with windoze XP? any driver issues?
i know the RME fireface can support up to 3 units.
thanks in advance for any info.

Music Calgary

04-05-2006, 12:24 AM

I might be mistaken but I seem to recall reading that you can currently only daisy chain 2 X 400Fs in Mac OSx. And even then I think I recall reading that it has to be above a certain version of OS X.

Anderton

04-05-2006, 10:14 PM

<<I'd really appreciate your opinion on the quality of Traktion's audio recording engine vis-a-vis Cubase sometime. If not, I understand, it's no doubt a tough issue to say anything truly conclusive about.>>

Yeah, it's something I can't really measure here. Sorry.

All I can say with certainty is that all digital audio engines sound better than any digital audio engine ten years ago :)

Music Calgary

04-05-2006, 10:36 PM

Here's my purely subjective opinion. I think Tracktion sounds every bit as good as Cubase/Nuendo/Audition. I have no other frame of reference. Granted it doesn't have all the features of those programs necessarily but it's close in terms of the features most home studios need.

Music Calgary

04-06-2006, 05:21 AM

As for Mackie support, one thing I do find unusual - I joined the support forum but it just gives me a "you have not been approved by the moderators" message. It's been over 24 hours and still no approval. I must say this is an odd way to provide support for paying customers. Not a great experience for sure.

I definitely don't understand their strategy here. I don't see any logical impetus for Mackie to prevent people from discussing their products online. Anyhow so far a little frustrating.

Music Calgary

04-06-2006, 08:44 AM

Another little bug in the 400F I noticed today. If you have anything playing audio when an audio application attempts to initialize the 400F, it fails. This is a bit surprising since any old $15 soundblaster can do that.

Might have something to do with the drivers? Maybe firewire is tricky to work with. Again, it's not a dealbreaker, just inconvenient and unexpected.

Music Calgary

04-06-2006, 05:39 PM

Another small point. If you connect a firewire device to the second firewire port on the 400F, i.e. an external hard drive, the operating noises from the hard drive are sometimes audible through your monitors.

d. gauss

04-07-2006, 03:25 PM

strange but true. bought a 400F today. haven't even used it yet, so i'm not sure if this is the same sound others are hearing.
seems mine has a high pitched whine even when not connected to the computer, or anything else! i.e. nothing connected to 400F 'cept for headphones. this is most evident on ch 4 with gain cranked. phantom power has to be on. turn off phantom it goes away. anybody else hear this?

Music Calgary

04-08-2006, 10:34 PM

Yep I had that. My dealer exchanged the unit. The new one doesn't whine but there's still a few frustrating residual issues. In particular the way the driver hijacks the system when initializing. So if you have an MP3 playing in your media player and you go to open an audio editor for a simple work task, no dice. It forces you to manually stop your media player, then start your editor, and once the driver has initialized you may or may not be able to restart it. Sometimes it works, sometimes the driver fails, and sometimes it works but is chipmunked.

Once the drivers have been worked on a bit by Mackie's dev team it should be not too bad, as it is right now the 400F is pretty frustrating gear within a professional production environment. Or at least for me it has been. Of course I don't understand the technical issues I only know that I had no problems with 12 or so other audio cards I've worked with. This is my first firewire one though so it might be a quotient of having to write drivers for firewire.

65bfdr

04-09-2006, 07:33 AM

I'm thinking of getting the 400f but wanted to see if anyone knows if the sound quality is any better than what you'd get on a portable digital recorder, like the Roland VS studios.

Music Calgary

04-09-2006, 04:11 PM

I've used both. All things being equal, the 400F seems better. That's my subjective opinion. The VS is a bit quicker/easier to work with for some stuff though and also doesn't have any major quirks. The ASIO drivers for the 400F still have a couple quirks.

d. gauss

04-10-2006, 09:06 AM

ok mackie, where's that version 1.06 400F driver you keep promising so you can run 2 units on XP? could really use it right about now.

btw your website (mackie.com) has been down for at least 2 days.

Music Calgary

04-10-2006, 05:38 PM

FWIW Mackie.com isn't down. Hasn't been down this week at all on my end. Must be your ISP or your router, etc.

d. gauss

04-11-2006, 03:53 PM

got the dreaded whine. loud as hell when phantom power is on. not cool at all. :(

d. gauss

04-13-2006, 10:39 PM

returned my 400f today. too many issues. oh well, it could have been nice.

Anderton

04-13-2006, 10:40 PM

Sorry to hear that. It sure performed well here, and I exercised it pretty damn hard.

Music Calgary

04-13-2006, 11:16 PM

I'm having no hardware issues. The only issues which remain seem to be in the ASIO drivers. That's why I decided to keep mine. The ASIO drivers can always be improved as long as the hardware is good.

I'm impressed with the latency, it works superbly for running VSTis. I've tested it with Akoustik Piano and a few others without a single glitch, responsiveness is very tactile. For me this gets big points since that seems to be a weak spot for many soundcards. Honestly I was kind of surprised by this as I'd always thought of VSTis as being a quotient of CPU/Disk Speed/RAM more than anything. Now I know better.

I'm happy with the sound quality. I had been using an Emu 1212m prior and it sounded pretty decent actually, but the 400F sounds noticeably better. Ultimately this is why I've decided to stick it out with the 400F and keep my fingers crossed for a driver update. :)

I must admit though that I'm bummed Mackie is giving $100 rebate to all U.S. customers but not us here in Canada. Why should I be penalized? I'm loyal. I bought a 400F during the valid dates for full retail price. I also own an Onyx mixer and a slew of other Mackie gear. Plus I convinced 2 local bands to go buy Onyx mixers also. In fact I was using Mackie gear back before it became cool. So if anyone deserves a rebate from Mackie, it's me... I realize that's the way the cookie crumbles but it still bites. Bah. :cry:

65bfdr

04-15-2006, 08:04 AM

Well, now I've got my eyes on the Focusrite Saffire Pro 26. It has the same pricetag as the Onyx 400f but it has 8 mic preamps and a total of 26 ins and 26 outs and a bunch of other features that the Mackie doesn't have... and I don't see any reason for it not to sound as good as the Mackie either. I guess time will tell.

Brittanylips

04-15-2006, 11:12 AM

What is responsible for the uncanny resilience of this thread?

Compensating for a statistically competitive disadvantage (it's been un-stickied) it has virtually the same rate of response as the Swedian thread over a period roughly half the time (4.5 months ~350 posts vs. 8.5 months ~800 posts).

How can a discussion about what is, you know, a decent but not earth-shatteringly-revolutionary audio interface rival access to one of the world's great engineers?

Has the Wewus cast a spell or am I reading too much into this?

-peace, love, and brittanylips

amplayer

04-15-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
What is responsible for the uncanny resilience of this thread?

Compensating for a statistically competitive disadvantage (it's been un-stickied) it has virtually the same rate of response as the Swedian thread over a period roughly half the time (4.5 months ~350 posts vs. 8.5 months ~800 posts).

How can a discussion about what is, you know, a decent but not earth-shatteringly-revolutionary audio interface rival access to one of the world's great engineers?

Has the Wewus cast a spell or am I reading too much into this?

-peace, love, and brittanylips

I have a theory...
What you may be forgetting is that a large percentage of the people posting here are people operating home studios for medium/little or no actual profit. Even though Bruce is flat out amazing, he exists in a realm that is far above many of us. The 400F exists in a realm that is attainable. There aren't many products in the same price range with the level of quality of the Onyx preamps.
Just my $.02.

Music Calgary

04-15-2006, 12:37 PM

Just normal people talking about the 400F in a public thread which is promoted by the forum owners as a place for normal people to talk about the 400F. Why anyone would question that is beyond me.

Brittanylips

04-15-2006, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
Just normal people talking about the 400F in a public thread which is promoted by the forum owners as a place for normal people to talk about the 400F. Why anyone would question that is beyond me.
Not criticizing, just observing. To the extent that this forum is also, in the words of its moderator, part performance art, this is a particularly long performance.

So why this one?

Maybe what Amplayer said.

Maybe there's just something about the 400f that's the perfect intersection of interest among forum participants.

Maybe the emotions we have for this interface are a thinly-veiled metaphor for all human relationships - desire for attractive features, hope for attainable perfection, dissappointment over inevitable flaws.

Or maybe Wewus has cast a spell.

Anyway, I say this not to criticize in any way. I like this thread. Just thought I'd add my .02 when realizing it had grown to half the size of the one above. You know, like when you're in the middle of a concert and you notice something and whisper it to the person next to you who then tells you to shut up. So, I'll shut up. :)

-plb

MikeRivers

04-15-2006, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
What is responsible for the uncanny resilience of this thread?Probably because there are a lot of people who would love to have this interface, but are still waiting to hear about successes working out some of the kinks.

You're good at stats. Have most of the recent wave of posts been from people who don't own one (you can count me in that group)? Have any of the recent posts been from Mac users running the Beta software that Mackie offered at the beginning of April?

There are probably some curious people out there and that's what's keeping the thread alive.

Anderton

04-15-2006, 09:50 PM

<<Not criticizing, just observing. To the extent that this forum is also, in the words of its moderator, part performance art, this is a particularly long performance.

So why this one?>>

I've wondered that myself. My theory is that this thread touched on a LOT of subjects that are important, but not necessarily 400F specific -- the perils of digital conversion, the mysterious whine (which affects products other than the 400F), the participation from Mackie that really added something to the thread, and the fact that people are still picking up the unit, hit google, and here we are!

Now the Presonus ADL thread -- it got a lot of people who lurked, Presonus was thrilled with the response, but after it had been explored it pretty much faded away. Why? No controversy. Even if you look at the audio snob sites, everyone pretty much loves the ADL 600. In fact the responses in the thread were all along the lines of "Yup, sounds great, built like a tank." I thought the use of screen shots to show why it sounded great would interest people, and it did...but all it did was support what they already knew!

We'll see what happens with the Rapture pro review. It's more of a niche product but it's really interesting, and I've posted a lot of audio examples.

Anderton

04-15-2006, 09:52 PM

<<Not criticizing, just observing.>>

FYI I didn't take this at all as criticism. We've never met but you obviously have an inquisitive and astute head on your shoulders, and I agree that this thread does have unusual staying power.

I've also noticed that the Sonar 5 thread pops up regularly, and the Variax Workbench from time to time, but not Ableton Live. Go figure.

Music Calgary

04-16-2006, 01:42 AM

It's this simple -> I bought a 400F, searched about it on Google, found this thread, and here I am 15 posts later. If you wish to read "into" that, be my guest. But there's nothing to read into.

As for the 400F, it's decent sounding but not "great". None of the studios here own any, so I'm not sure where you are getting your data from. Again, they sound very good. Fine even. But not "great". You get what you pay for, and this is a very decent working unit for day to day use, but definitely not elite sounding.

Is it good enough to track an album or voiceover with professional sounding results? Definitely... Would any experienced engineer ever use a 400F to track the lead vocals for a major album production if they had a choice of gear? Of course not...

Brittanylips

04-17-2006, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
Probably because there are a lot of people who would love to have this interface, but are still waiting to hear about successes working out some of the kinks.

You're good at stats. Have most of the recent wave of posts been from people who don't own one (you can count me in that group)? Have any of the recent posts been from Mac users running the Beta software that Mackie offered at the beginning of April?

There are probably some curious people out there and that's what's keeping the thread alive.
I bet that analyzing the responses in this thread, new vs. regular participants, potential buyers vs. here for the convo, experts vs. newbies, positive vs. negative feedback, etc. could turn up some interesting insights. But actually doing that seems too much like work, so I'll leave that for the next guy or gal!

-peace love and britlips

Brittanylips

04-17-2006, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Anderton
<<Not criticizing, just observing. To the extent that this forum is also, in the words of its moderator, part performance art, this is a particularly long performance.

So why this one?>>

I've wondered that myself. My theory is that this thread touched on a LOT of subjects that are important, but not necessarily 400F specific -- the perils of digital conversion, the mysterious whine (which affects products other than the 400F), the participation from Mackie that really added something to the thread, and the fact that people are still picking up the unit, hit google, and here we are!
I agree with all your points. The Google thing is also an interesting part of it – this thread attracts people from outside of the forum who are searching for additional information following its release (and, symbiotically, harvests additional participants).

About a year ago, on an esoteric bulletin board dealing with technical minutiae of interest to almost no one, one of the participants started a thread “I am lonely.” For some reason, Google rated it highly, and whenever anyone in the world googled that phrase, they were pointed to that thread. Suddenly, a board with few participants was receiving thousands of hits. Lonely people all over the world were adding their angst to that thread. Threads on the board typically contained a handful of posts. That one grew to thousands.
Originally posted by Anderton
<<Not criticizing, just observing.>>

FYI I didn't take this at all as criticism. We've never met but you obviously have an inquisitive and astute head on your shoulders, and I agree that this thread does have unusual staying power.

I've also noticed that the Sonar 5 thread pops up regularly, and the Variax Workbench from time to time, but not Ableton Live. Go figure.
Maybe because like the Personus, Live is so universally loved, there’s just very little controversy. But yeah, go figure!

And thanks for the compliment! In an attempt to live up to it – did you mean to type ADL 600 rather than 400F in your second paragraph, 4 posts above?

-plb

Anderton

04-17-2006, 09:27 AM

Yes, thanks -- I corrected it.

garry

04-18-2006, 12:01 PM

I just bought a 400F based on earlier reading of this thread and the $100 rebate offer. Damn thing won't work with SONAR 5.2 using ANY driver. I'm really tired, grumpy and annoyed. Don't people test this stuff? Research on the Mackie and Cakewalk forums found a couple people with the same problem but no solution.

So what majik did you SONAR 5.x users have to do to get SONAR to playback anything through the 400F? When I press the spacebar, all I get is a message telling me the playback device is in use and to go pack sand. I spent way too many hours already trying to get the 400F installed and working last night after a session.

I installed the 1.5 drivers.
I'm using ASIO in SONAR.
"Share Drivers" is checked
The Onyx clock setting matches my projects (44.1K)

ACK!

I got the same result attempting to use WDM drivers. Note that SONAR 5.2 did appear to profile the Onyx correctly.

The Onyx Console doesn't seem to save settings and there is no indication of what sample rate is actually active (on the hardware) if you have the console closed. Could the console be conflicting with SONAR? I have no other sound devices on the system. My old Creamware Pulsar card was uninstalled and removed. My on-board audio was diasabled in the BIOS.

Note that I can play MP3 or WAV files in Media Player and WaveLab 3.x

I'm SO frustrated right now. I've got a session tomorrow night and need to get this thing working or send it back for a refund. I have no patience for stuff that isn't rock solid reliable in my studio. Paying customers deserve as much.

I'm suspecting some kind of turf war between the various drivers over the 400F. Mackie Tech Support is supposedly looking into it too.

Anderton

04-18-2006, 12:10 PM

Why do you have "share drivers" checked? Can't you just dedicate the drivers to Sonar? I would recommend unchecking this if at all possible.

Also, if you have multiprocessing checked, try unchecking it. MBox 2 does the same thing you describe when multiprocessing is checked, yet works perfectly when it's unchecked. The hyperthreading thing is the source of lots of problems with computer setups.

Note that if you do have a dual processing system and multiprocessing is unchecked, Sonar still does make use of the two processors to some extent so you still get some benefits from having two processors.

Let me know if this works for you.

garry

04-18-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Anderton
Why do you have "share drivers" checked? Can't you just dedicate the drivers to Sonar? I would recommend unchecking this if at all possible.

I'll try again, but I believe it was unchecked to begin with and didn't work, so I tried selecting it since the error message is implying there is some sort of contention for the device.

Music Calgary

04-18-2006, 11:15 PM

There are definitely a few ASIO driver anomalies for the 400F. Hopefully we're just a software update away from less anomalies. :love:

garry

04-19-2006, 04:51 AM

SOLUTION: It turns out that Windows monopolizes the Onyx if the Onyx is the default audio device in the Sounds and Audio Devices control panel applet. So I enabled the onboard AC97 sound on my mobo, loaded the latest drivers for it, and told Windows to use that instead. Now SONAR 5.2 plays fine with the ASIO drivers. And WaveLab 3.x works fine once I selected the Onyx as the audio device. I have yet to really experiment with ASIO vs WDM and latency settings, but at least it appears to work. I have a session tonight and we'll see how the input side of things works. I have yet to try MIDI or soft synths or any of the multitude of other stuff in SONAR, but at least playback works.

One last minor issue: Windows Media Player now wants to use the onboard mobo audio which isn't connected to anything. It doesn't appear that I can tell Media Player which device to use. It's easy enough to switch audio devices in Control Panel, but that's a PITA. I might just burn a couple line inputs on the 400F and feed the line output from my onboard/mobo audio into them.

Badside

04-19-2006, 06:57 AM

I bought a 400F yesterday, mostly because of this thread. It is sad that the mail-in rebate isn't offered in Canada but what ya gonna do?

Anyway, installation went smoothly and I got it working in Sonar 4 with no problem. Used ASIO as per Craig's recommendation, they only problem I had was that my projects are all in 44.1 but the default clock setting is 48 (I'm not used to having to change the clock setting myself, it was automatic on my Delta44), so Sonar would say that the audio device didn't support the audio format. After a quick adjustement everything was working.

I can't really comment on the preamp quality yet, I'm mostly happy to now have a good DI to record bass tracks without additionnal gear.

I toyed around with various little projects and noticed how stable it was. WIth the Delta, I was getting clicks and pops as soon as the track count was getting high or plugins were used (had to mixdown everything to a stereo track when tracking something new) and that was with the buffer size set high. With the 400F, I opened up a fully mixed project with tons of plugins running (the CPU meter was at 30%) and re-tracked the bass with no problem. I could even get the latency down enough to monitor my bass through the DAW with compression and digital-tube saturation plugins.

DIing my Strat was quite revealing too, I now understand what Craig meant. I might do this for clean parts instead of going through my PodXT.

As for the preamps, the real test will be at the next tracking session. They do pick a lot of details through my only condenser mic... I thought my computer was practically silent, now I hear just that. I even tracked a little song with my singing while playing the guitar (recorded in stereo through the PodXT), and the "pick strumming" sound is picked up so clearly by the mic that the take is basically unusable.

Anyway, thank for this great thread.

Anderton

04-19-2006, 11:32 PM

It's the "Thread that Refuses to Die." But I think there have indeed been some really valuable insights in here.

Anderton

04-20-2006, 01:43 AM

By the way, also check out this thread:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1216099&referrerid=37224

Dan Steinberg, the 400F project manager, sets a few things straight.

Badside

04-20-2006, 06:59 AM

BTW, some people have inquired about the Tracktion2 software that came with it.

I installed it on my computer yesterday to try it out, and I must say I'll probably be sticking with Sonar!

Maybe it's just because the interface is so much different, but I was getting frustrated navigating through this Flash-looking software (it really does look like a Flash application). I noticed however that the claims of low CPU overhead seemed true (especially since I installed it on my "normal" OS drive, the one connected to internet via WI-FI, with useless iTunes services in the background...).

I was hoping to like it cause there are some advantage to Sonar: the click track is much easier to use (it blows the Sonar away by a large margin), it has native VST support and allows sidechaining and softsynths with multiple output (with Sonar, I have to manually render a track for each drum sound so I can process them individually, it's a PITA).

Actually I was starting to like it until I tried programming a MIDI drum track... I've been using piano roll grids since DOS-based Voyetra back on my 286, and I've never had so much trouble putting down a simple drum beat (something that is so easy in Sonar).

I also miss the intuitive virtual mixing board (the thing I loved the most when Cakewalk became Sonar). Perhaps for people who've never worked with a real board, this doesn't matter, but for me, it's still the best way to work when mixing (instead of using pan/volume filters on each track).

However, these are really my only two major quirks. I guess I could easily get used to the cartoon-looking interface (ok I'm exagerating a bit) and some people might actually prefer that. I do appreciate that they took a fresh approach.

I might actually use it when I buy a laptop for mobile recording (since Sonar is already installed on my "real" DAW). The part I hate the most is MIDI programming, but for an audio only project, I could live with it, it seems stable enough.

Bottom line is, it is much better than the price would lead you to believe (considering the 400F itself is already a pretty good deal, IMHO the software is pretty much a freebie). But I still prefer my good ol' Sonar :D

Music Calgary

04-22-2006, 02:16 PM

I respectfully disagree on that one point. Tracktion is superb. Just takes a minute to get used to. Here's a backing track I did with Tracktion/400F last night, sounds fine to me and it was quick and easy to put together...

http://ia301137.us.archive.org/0/items/Music_Calgary_PD_1/The.good.the.bad.and.the.ashy.mp3

Another HUGE problem is of course that because the 400F hijacks the drivers, you can't say have Powertab open on one screen and an active Audition session going on the other. All sorts of glitches. That's the thing about product reviews, they rarely take into account for the sort of tasks which drive real life production scenarios.

To be clear, even the cheapest soundcards on the market do not hijack your drivers like the 400F does. So even though it's decent hardware, it's not particularly helpful as a production tool until Mackie finally addresses these issues.

I've been telling all my friends who ask about my 400F that it's time to wait basically. Mackie will get this right but the current generation is not a good solution for one-computer studios. It hasn't learned to play well with others yet. :)

MikeRivers

04-22-2006, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
Another HUGE problem is of course that because the 400F hijacks the drivers, you can't say have Powertab open on one screen and an active Audition session going on the other. All sorts of glitches. That's the thing about product reviews, they rarely take into account for the sort of tasks which drive real life production scenarios.

To be clear, even the cheapest soundcards on the market do not hijack your drivers like the 400F does. I understand what you're trying to do (seems reasonable to me and definitely worth checking in a review) but I don't understand what you mean by "hijack your drivers." What other drivers? I guess you're suggesting that the drivers can talk to only one program at a time?

Is this a Mackie problem? My sense is that this is one of the quirks with Windows and ASIO drivers, and the cheapest of sound cards don't usually use ASIO drivers. Did you try the WDM drivers?

Of couse using a different driver type could still be a major pain in the patootie if you have to share a driver among programs and one of those programs insists on talking ASIO.

What were you using before the 400F?

Music Calgary

04-22-2006, 05:37 PM

I was using an Emu 1212m, but I've used many others also, Lynx, etc... I've had maybe 6-8 different audio cards in my day and this is the first I've seen which does this. It also does some random sample rate skips which result in chipmunked audio, I've not seen that before either.

Here's an example of what I meant by hijacked. With any other soundcard on the market that I've seen you can be playing an MP3 in your MP3 player at the same time as you open an audio app, no problem. With the 400F you can't. So it makes it's impractical for use in a real world production scenario since most producers tend to multitask.

Another example of how the drivers don't work right. You can't record audio in Techsmith Camtasia with the 400F but you can with any other soundcard I know of.

The hardware seems fine. I've got no problem with the unit itself. The bugs are in the control panel software (not retaining settings) and in the drivers as far as I can see. Seems like all fixable stuff though, so that's the good news. :)

Music Calgary

04-23-2006, 03:29 PM

OK an update to that too, there's also a bug which cause the drivers to initialize whenever a new window gets focus. So if I'm sitting here with no sound at all going through the system, and I open a folder from my desktop, I hear "click click" as the driver does something with the sample rate it seems. That would explain the chipmunking.

Anyhow this is one I've never seen or heard of from any audio interface before. I think this is the root of the main problem.

rickenbacker198

04-27-2006, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary

Anyhow this is one I've never seen or heard of from any audio interface before. I think this is the root of the main problem.

I love the sound of the 400f... excellent quality,,, but
I am having the same "hijack" problems,

especially when switching from a wdm device (media player) to an asio device (Cubase Sx3).

I usually have to shut down both apps to get the asio app to load the drivers. and sometimes it requires a computer restart as well.. very annoying!!!
I have it set to release asio driver in background like I have with any other card.
My delta44 never had a problem switching drivers!

Mackie are you aware of this issue and working on a solution??
Thanks

MikeRivers

04-28-2006, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary: Here's an example of what I meant by hijacked. With any other soundcard on the market that I've seen you can be playing an MP3 in your MP3 player at the same time as you open an audio app, no problem. With the 400F you can't. So it makes it's impractical for use in a real world production scenario since most producers tend to multitask.They do? In that way? That doesn't sound very "professional" to me, but if you want to distract yourself from whatever serious production you're doing with your 400F (and presumably more sophisticated software than an MP3 player) that's your choice. Perhaps you should choose other hardware.Another example of how the drivers don't work right. You can't record audio in Techsmith Camtasia with the 400F but you can with any other soundcard I know of.Well, not every program works the same. Is recording in Techsmith Camtasia really important to you? As important as doing what the 400F does best and probably the reason why you bought it? I've never heard of the program. Maybe it's the next ProTools.The hardware seems fine. I've got no problem with the unit itself. The bugs are in the control panel software (not retaining settings) and in the drivers as far as I can see. Seems like all fixable stuff though, so that's the good news. :) If only the manufacturer thinks it's important enough to fix. You haven't convinced me. I don't play around with my audio computer and I don't waste "professional" grade hardware on my "play" computers.

I don't mean to lecture about how you should live your life, but understand that professional equipment (and I'm sure Mackie would like to think that the 400F deserves to be in this category) is designed to work in a professional environment. That may exclude some consumer appllications so that the pro applications work better. Now, given the number of people who have had problems with the 400F and programs like Sonar, this isn't a very strong argument in practice as of now, but that's the concept.

So what are you going to do? Play your MP3 files on another computer and use the 400F for serious work (assuming you have applications that work well with it), or are you going to off it and get "any other sound card?" Not a challange, just looking for how important this is to you and how adaptable you are. We all have to live with a hole in the head some time.

Anderton

04-28-2006, 10:22 AM

<<Another example of how the drivers don't work right. You can't record audio in Techsmith Camtasia with the 400F but you can with any other soundcard I know of.>>

I'm a huge Techsmith Camtasia fan (it's a video "screen grabber," great for training and capturing what's happening on screen) but haven't had any luck, capturing audio from pro sound cards (e.g., ASIO). You can use MME drivers and it will work but that's no fun :) At least that's my experience.

d. gauss

04-28-2006, 07:56 PM

ok folks, after returning my first, humming, whining unit, a week or so ago, i bought a new 400f today (and a 1620). all from a different store. haven't fired it up yet, but if this one has issues, i hope dan s. from mackie makes good on his public we'll send a "working replacement" vow asap...

fingers crossed.

Badside

04-29-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by d. gauss
ok folks, after returning my first, humming, whining unit, a week or so ago, i bought a new 400f today (and a 1620). all from a different store. haven't fired it up yet, but if this one has issues, i hope dan s. from mackie makes good on his public we'll send a "working replacement" vow asap...

fingers crossed.

Keep us informed. I returned mine for the same reason as you (squealing when phantom power engaged, most evident on channel 4) and after reading and reading about all my other options, I just wish I could find a 400F without this issue...

Anderton

04-30-2006, 12:55 AM

<<haven't fired it up yet>>

A cliffhanger!! Stay tuned...

Brittanylips

04-30-2006, 08:41 AM

OK. My latest theory.

The 400f is the audio equivalent of "Lost."

(A TV show about a paradisiacal island that meets the needs of everyone on it, but with pitfalls lurking at every turn generating endless adventure.)

-peace, love, and brittanylips

Badside

04-30-2006, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
OK. My latest theory.

The 400f is the audio equivalent of "Lost."

(A TV show about a paradisiacal island that meets the needs of everyone on it, but with pitfalls lurking at every turn generating endless adventure.)

-peace, love, and brittanylips

Not exactly true because, it doesn't have ADAT in so it doesn't meet the needs of everyone :)

guitwizz

05-02-2006, 12:31 PM

I have a feeling that I wouldnt have those hijack problems, if I obtain the 400. I have 2 systems, one that NEVER touches the internet in the studio (Although I sometimes wish I had never installed sp2) and the other system for the internet, in a different part of the building.

I will buy a 300 dollar biscuity pc every year or 2 for INTERNET only, and whatever clowning around junk, printing, burning, surfing, whatever.

If you are serious about recording on pc or mac, you ask, no, BEG for problems by being cheap, period. If someone is trying to play a fun stupid thing, and using powertab, and seriously recording on the same system, it may be that your prior cards werent "serious" at all, and let all the kids play in the street.....
keep separate systems, much less problems....

I have the 1820m right now, and as it sounds great, it has had 2wice the horror of ANY of these problems. It has been a software-driver trainwreck since its release.

JDP

05-08-2006, 10:06 AM

I just received my 400 and opened the box and took the unit out to rack it up, but before I did, I instinctively checked the gain pots, and channels one and two were EXTREMELY wobbly. I looked closely and it's not the set screws - the shafts themselves are really loose. All the other pots / switches seem fine - nice and tight - but these are bad - and now I'm starting to worry that this thing won't hold up. It kind feels like something Alesis would make! I have a lot of Mackie stuff and it's always been rock solid (I even checked my 8 year old 1604 and every single knob on the board is still tighter than these!). Considering the Mackie ad says "Robust aluminum and steel construction with fanatical attention to detail" there is no way this unit is up to par. Has anyone else noticed whether the quality of the knobs is holding up to regular use??? I've sent it back for a replacement - but would like some opinions from other pros -

d. gauss

05-08-2006, 10:08 AM

yep, on the unit i returned, my 1 & 2 pots were wobbly also.

Music Calgary

05-11-2006, 01:22 AM

if you want to distract yourself from whatever serious production you're doing with your 400F (and presumably more sophisticated software than an MP3 player) that's your choice. Perhaps you should choose other hardware.

Obviously all producers work with more than one app open at the same time at some point in their day. Ever heard of rewire? Sheesh, please give some thought to your words. The 400F is the only audio interface I've worked with which causes these hassles, it needs to be reworked. It's not just me saying that, it's lots of people. So stow the emotion and give the issue some thought, not just kneejerk, "Go buy another piece of hardware" nonsense.

News flash, I've bought the 400F, I have no choice but to use it. It would just be nice if the people who program the drivers brought it up to par with at least say, the drivers in the lowest tier of soundblaster cards. I don't think that's asking too much. And I don't think you understand the ramifications of the issue. On some systems you have to save, close, and restart your session each time you get an instant message or have to check an external file, it just depends on the software. Obviously that's not acceptable software performance, it has nothing to do with the hardware.

I don't mean to lecture about how you should live your life, but understand that professional equipment (and I'm sure Mackie would like to think that the 400F deserves to be in this category) is designed to work in a professional environment. That may exclude some consumer appllications so that the pro applications work better. Now, given the number of people who have had problems with the 400F and programs like Sonar, this isn't a very strong argument in practice as of now, but that's the concept.

What on earth are you talking about? You seem to have a personal problem in which you are unable to separate the consumer from the product and you clearly have not read the Mackie marketing material. Please show me where in the sales material I scoured prior to purchasing my 400F it mentions "the 400F will hamstring all other media software on the system". You can't because it doesn't.

Secondly, that is ludicrous. I have owned several other soundcards both professional and consumer and not one of them did this. So, c'mon now... This is not professional performance, *at all*. Don't even try that.

This is about the Mackie drivers, not my personal life, plain and simple. So calm down and gvie the issue some thought. Again, have you *ever heard of Rewire*? Sheesh... Now I suppose you'll attack Rewire? You really haven't given this any thought at all obviously... The issue has nothing to do with the quality of the code which comprises the applications you are attempting to execute in peaceful co-existence. Nothing at all. The issue here is a flaw in the driver programming which despearately needs to be addressed for the 400F to even gain consumer level performance in this regard, let alone professional.

I can't even believe your approach but I will take your invitation to shop elsewhere under consideration.

guitwizz, doesn't matter if you have separate systems. You can't run or initiate more than one app which "may" use the audio driver at the same time. Some programs will work if you open them in a certain order, but that's not conducive to the real world work flow that Mackie is selling us on. Anyone running the 400F on a PC will experience the driver problems, guaranteed.

MikeRivers

05-11-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary

Obviously all producers work with more than one app open at the same time at some point in their day. Ever heard of rewire? Sheesh, please give some thought to your words. Let's not get too excited here. First of all, I don't work with more than one app open at a time. So much for your declaration. Well, OK, I might have a recording application open as well as a word processor so I can keep a log of the session.

However, I will grant you that there is some value, if you do that sort of production, for using an application like Rewire to pass audio data between applications. This is a "professional" kind of application, and by golly it should work. If your problem is that you can't use the 400F with Rewire and another audio applicaition, I'd suggest that you call Mackie Tech Support and see what they say about it. I'm sure this isn't what they intended, however they have been guilty of releasing products that basically work but don't have all the features that one expects implemented at the time of release.

However, the original post was about an unspecified MP3 player, which, without further information, I took to mean a multimedia consumer-style application, and those often do expect certain configurations (at least within Windows) and do their darndest to get what they want. I wouldn't be surprised that the problem is the MP3 player trying ot take over, and not the other way around. But I really don't know.

I can tell you that I have been surprised when I'm listening to a radio station streaming over the net, and happen on to a web site that has some music that starts playing when you load the page (geez, I hate that!!!) and I hear the web site music as well as the radio program I was listening to. But this is with a simple sound card (I guess on the level of the lowest SoundBlaster you refer to), and I'm sure that, being the Windows default audio device, it's using WDM or MME drivers, not ASIO, which is the preferred driver model for most pro applications.

Consider your complaint as noted, but if you want to get the problem solved, take it to the source, and do it by telephone. Mackie isn't going to respond to you here. And if you think you're doing potential customers a service (or doing Mackie a serves-'em-right disservice) by informing them of what the 400F won't do, well, bless your heart.

Music Calgary

05-12-2006, 12:53 AM

OK. Case scenario. You need to use Rewire to route data from one audio app to another. What do you do?

MikeRivers

05-12-2006, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
OK. Case scenario. You need to use Rewire to route data from one audio app to another. What do you do? I don't know. What do YOU do? If I couldn't figure it out and I suspected that the problem was with the 400F, I'd call Mackie. And if I suspected that it was with Rewire, I'd call the Rewire company. If I suspected that it wa with Windows, I'd buy a Mac.

Really, if you're having a problem, talk to the people who can help you solve it. And if you're just making up a hypothetical case, well maybe someone who has been there and done (or not done) that will answer you. I can't. I don't have the problem because I don't use Rewire.

Brittanylips

05-12-2006, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
Consider your complaint as noted, but if you want to get the problem solved, take it to the source, and do it by telephone. Mackie isn't going to respond to you here. And if you think you're doing potential customers a service (or doing Mackie a serves-'em-right disservice) by informing them of what the 400F won't do, well, bless your heart.
My understanding of this format is that people who use the thing are not just entitled but encouraged to chime in with their experience, whatever it happens to be. There’s an expert moderator, and then there’s regular users chiming in. It’s a great mix, the best thing that’s happened to product reviews in a long time.

I truly enjoy reading your posts. They are remarkably insightful and helpful and teach me a lot. But, my friend, I didn’t enjoy reading your last few in which you are essentially telling a real user who is providing real feedback to shut his pie whole.

You have become something of a Mackie apologist, bristling whenever a regular user finds fault with a device I don’t believe you have ever used, and explaining that the problem is either not really a problem or that the problem is with the user rather than the device.

While you may be right in much of what you say, to suggest that a regular user, especially one as experienced and articulate as Calgary, should limit negative feedback to phone calls directly with the company seems to violate the spirit of this wonderful format.

-peace, love, and brittanylips

guitwizz

05-12-2006, 12:58 PM

< originally posted By Brittanylips>

"My understanding of this format is that people who use the thing are not just entitled but encouraged to chime in with their experience, whatever it happens to be. There’s an expert moderator, and then there’s regular users chiming in. It’s a great mix, the best thing that’s happened to product reviews in a long time. "

hehe, so, your cute evaluation of this being equivalent to the TV series "Lost", is a serious comment to add to this review??

I find it amusing, when people that want to clown, can suddenly sit back and play "Mr. Maturity" with compelling statements that only come from a well-rehearsed "wordsmith".

Maybe the current pond size you are in needs re-evaluating...

:wave: helloooooo!

Brittanylips

05-12-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by guitwizz
hehe, so, your cute evaluation of this being equivalent to the TV series "Lost", is a serious comment to add to this review??

Comparing this thread to Lost was a serious comment. I like Lost.

-peace, love, and brittanylips

Anderton

05-12-2006, 03:17 PM

MikeRivers

05-12-2006, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
I truly enjoy reading your posts. They are remarkably insightful and helpful and teach me a lot. But, my friend, I didn’t enjoy reading your last few in which you are essentially telling a real user who is providing real feedback to shut his pie whole. [/QB]Your feedback is noted. I suggested that the original poster who was complaining about not being able to play an MP3 file (he didn't specify what he was using to do that) might be stretching the bounds of what was designed as a professional piece of gear. It's not clear that the person carrying on about Rewire actually tried it and found a problem with it. If he did, and that was clear, I guess I missed it. My point is that if you have a real problem, it's fair to discuss it. But if you just throw out a possible problem without knowing for sure that it's a problem and then saying that the vendor's driver is faulty, it's time to back off. [QB]While you may be right in much of what you say, to suggest that a regular user, especially one as experienced and articulate as Calgary, should limit negative feedback to phone calls directly with the company seems to violate the spirit of this wonderful format. An experienced user can get a lot out of a call to the vendor, and can bring the result of his call back to the forum intelligently. It's a tough job, but it takes an experienced user to do it. If he hasn't taken that effort, then I don't see what good it does to stir the pot here.

MikeRivers

05-12-2006, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Anderton
I used rewired applications with the 400F when I tested it, with Windows XP.[/QB]Well, I guess we can't argue with success - but then you're an experienced Rewirer. ;) [QB]
I'd look for some kind of preference in the host, like "allow sharing drivers" or "don't allow sharing drivers" or whatever. Sounds to me like the two apps are fighting over the driver, and the 400F is caught in the middle. This sounds to me like what was described in this latest round as "hijacking." Perhaps there's an application that he's trying to use with Rewire that didn't want to share a driver. But from the description of the problem (which initially didn't involve Rewire) it sounded like the 400F driver didn't like being shared.

It's things like this that keep me with both feet planted in hardware. I give up easily when it comes to solving problems that I can't see or take apart. :evil:

Warhead

05-12-2006, 05:42 PM

I had a customer asking for my opinion on this piece today, so I spent quite a bit of time with a 400F today, and I gotta say it's a very clean unit and the drivers / interface are a snap using Cubase. I see a lot of these interfaces coming in and out of here, and the 400F certainly stands up in its price range.

I like the fact that it has basically the same easy to use interface as the Echo Audiofire line. One of his concerns was crazy complicated interfaces and this isn't one of them in my book.

War

Music Calgary

05-12-2006, 08:01 PM

Mike, you're still missing the point. It doesn't matter which apps we're talking about. Take any 2 audio apps. I'm just giving an example which real world producers might be faced with.

For example let's say you are trying to use Groove Agent with Tracktion. Or running scales in Akoustik Piano while watching the evening news. Doesn't matter what the scenario is, no dice... Nowhere does Mackie ever inform potential customers that they will no longer be able to do these normal everyday things they can do with any other soundcard on the market.

Warren, I agree the sound is OK and it's easy enough to channel into Cubase. But if you need to run another audio app while you are working in Cubase, such as a notation software (like Powertab, Guitar Pro, Finale, etc.) as many folks do, or a rewire device, you can't. This is a major limitation which should be noted. :thu:

Music Calgary

05-12-2006, 09:17 PM

One more thing Mike. You keep saying WDM ("not pro") vs. ASIO (pro) but the Mackie drivers install WDM as well as ASIO and GSIF.

http://www.mackie.com/products/400f/update.html

That is not the problem. The problem seems to be flaws in the drivers. It is definitely not a limitation of "professional" quality gear as you say. 100% guaranteed. I have used other professional gear without any of the same limitations.

As for my posting here, until and unless the people who own/run this forum ask me not to post, I will post whatever I feel like posting whenever I feel like posting it. Feel free to skip my posts should they be causing you any inconvenience.

Boffinry

05-13-2006, 06:45 AM

Hello All,

Long time listener, first time caller and all that... :-)

I don't mean to hijack this, but I have been following this thread for yonks - Craig's Pro Review (and the ensuing discussion) was one major factor in my decision to purchase a 400F recently. Craig - I have been a long-time fan of your writing ever since buying my first issue of Keyboard in 1995, also followed your stuff online, in Sound on Sound mag and in product manuals(!) - good to finally say hello, and thanks for sharing your wisdom over the years! I have found Mike Rivers' input in this forum and on Mackie's site to be valuable too. :)

Not sure if I'm transgressing some sort of netequitte thang here, so I might just dive right on in. This thread seems to be where the greatest concentration of 400F discussion on the net is:)

To cut a long story short; I have encountered probs with latency using the Onyx on a late-model G5 PowerMac with OS 10.4.6. I believe the problem is not isolated, and was surprised to see (after many frustrated hours of tinkering) "official" recognition of this from Mackie:

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000726

I don't believe this was picked up in Craig's Pro Review, nor any of the reviews I've read so far (inc. Paul White's SOS review). A lot of the discussion was around FW noises and mic-preamp POVs - none of which really concerned me on the balance of all the discussion, & esp. in light of Craig's overall positive conclusions. The particular probs I am having would appear to render the unit largely useless for "real instrument" recording.

What I'm desperately after is some help & opinion from the gurus. Details of what I have discovered are here (saving me typing the whole thing out):

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000786

Does anyone have a identical setup? Has anyone had similar problems? Could a Mackie demigod confirm that what I am experiencing here could be related to the OS instability issue? Or, is this operator issue? ;)

My concern stem from a fear that I may have a unit that will be in perpetual update "limbo", and/or may have support dropped for it in the near future without the issue ever being resolved :(

Thanks for reading :)

Music Calgary

05-13-2006, 01:09 PM

Well the current driver is almost a full year old so it's definitely not a top priority for Mackie obviously.

Hopefully they fix your problem in the next release because it'll probably be another year again after that until they offer anything further. :thu:

The bottom line, the 400F is not ready for prime time in a professional full service studio although it might work well for specialists such as Mike who have a very rigid and limited workflow, i.e. do not require the unit to be flexible or work well with existing tools.

If I could get back what I paid for mine I'd gladly ditch it tomorrow. It's OK-ish but it has hampered my workflow and is not worth the $900 I paid. There are several other problems I haven't listed here for brevity such as the spontaneous "No Onyx Firewire interface found" thingy where you have to unplug and then replug the fire wire in (never had any problem with any other firewire gear on this box) and the control panel not saving it's settings but we'll leave those for another day. It's sunny out, time for a skate. :)

Anderton

05-13-2006, 01:32 PM

<<To cut a long story short; I have encountered probs with latency using the Onyx on a late-model G5 PowerMac with OS 10.4.6.>>

I have heard about that as well, but not until after the Pro Review was done at this end, and I just got my Mac going again (on 10.4.6) last week but the 400F is long gone (Mackie donated it to a school, which I think is way cool) so I can't test it.

Music Calgary

05-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Sounds to me like the two apps are fighting over the driver, and the 400F is caught in the middle.

Naw, works fine with all other soundcards I've worked with. It's the 400F, not the software, guaranteed.

Warhead

05-13-2006, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
Warren, I agree the sound is OK and it's easy enough to channel into Cubase. But if you need to run another audio app while you are working in Cubase, such as a notation software (like Powertab, Guitar Pro, Finale, etc.) as many folks do, or a rewire device, you can't. This is a major limitation which should be noted. :thu:

Cool, I didn't run it in this manner and I don't personally work that way myself (I run Nuendo 2 currently, and don't get heavy into midi based work...) so that's good to know.

War :cool:

MikeRivers

05-14-2006, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
The bottom line, the 400F is not ready for prime time in a professional full service studio although it might work well for specialists such as Mike who have a very rigid and limited workflow, i.e. do not require the unit to be flexible or work well with existing tools.I had an excuse to try running two audio applications with my usual working setup this morning, a Digigram VX Pocket interface in the PCMCIA slot of my Dell laptop running WinXP No SP2. While reading the mail on another computer (that's how I multitrask), II was listening to an MP3 recording of an overnight radio show on the laptop and wanted to check out something in Sequoia that someone had asked me about. So I paused Winamp, opened Sequoia, and started playing back a file. The auido was coming out the laptop speakers instead of the speakers connected to the VX card. So I tried changing Sequoia's output device back to the VX (it's default setting) and got the message "WDM Device is already in use." That's about what I expected, since Winamp uses the default Windows audio device, and Windows doesn't know about ASIO drivers without some help from the application.

So next I tried to use the Digigram ASIO driver in Sequoia. It (I assume this was the Digigram driver) wouldn't let me do it while the WDM version was still active. I didn't try closing Winamp, setting Sequoia up for the Digigram ASIO driver, and then seeing if I could run Winamp. I suspect that I'd get an error since Winamp (via Windows) would not be looking for an ASIO driver.

So here I am, having been using the VX pocket "professional" card for six years, unable to use it with a "professional" application while playing an MP3 file. I guess it's just no darn good. And, yes, I keep up with the VX drivers, though they haven't been updated for a year or more.

Shoot! Guess I'll have to take down my shingle and get a SoundBlaster or some other "any" sound card.

But I'm still curious about something. I re-read Craig's recent message in this discussion and it sure reads like he had Rewire working with the 400F. What's different with your setup that you can't get it to work?

I'm not trying to defend Mackie here, but I'm an information person and I'm curious. Surely you're not the only person who has tried Rewire (and it's still not clear from your postings if you really have, or you're just using it as an example) with the 400F. I agree with you that this is a reasonable working mode for certain kinds of production, and if it really doesn't work, we should find out why (and when it will). I understand your frustration with spending $800 with the idea of getting better audio quality and more flexibility and discovering that you had to give up an important working function in the process. That's not right. But if it was a matter of mixing play with work (as I tried to do this morniing) and it didn't work, I could forgive it.

d. gauss

05-14-2006, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers

I'm not trying to defend Mackie here,

i don't know about the rewire thing, but the fact is, the 400F has issues.

i'll be returning my 2nd unit tomorrow. same old problems.

Music Calgary

05-14-2006, 03:29 PM

Mike, no i don't really use rewire, it was just an example. But OK since you seem to really, really, really want an actual example which you deem feasible for a pro producer how about this:

Open Cubase. Now open Powertab. No dice. This is a real world metaphor which applies to thousands of producers whether they be using Powertab or Guitar Pro or Finale or Sibelius whatever. It's *very* common for people to have their recording app showing on the left monitor and their notation app showing in the right monitor. This is just one example. Anyhow for me, the 400F is a problem. Not sonically, as Warren states it is a decent sounding unit and easy to interface 1-on-1 with Cubase et al, but in terms of workflow.

Anyhow I've definitely overstated my point and that's bad form so I'm just going to leave it at that. Cheers. :thu:

d. gauss

05-15-2006, 10:29 AM

returned my 2nd defective 400f today. :(

now i gotta figure out what to use instead...

Badside

05-15-2006, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by d. gauss
returned my 2nd defective 400f today. :(

now i gotta figure out what to use instead...

Did you check with Mackie this time if they were gonna replace it?

I bought a 2nd one too, negociated the price down since all their stock on hand was defective, thinking I'd be able to get it replaced at the factory if it drove me nuts...

d. gauss

05-15-2006, 11:28 AM

i didn't want to take the chance sending it back, being tied up for a long time period and not having anything (or any cash) in the meantime.

today (15th) was the postmark date for the 100 buck rebate, so i just washed my hands of the whole thing. :(

plus, i mean come on mackie, i spent the money TWICE, at two different dealers. not a high confidence factor there.

i will say that at least on the 2nd unit, the knobs weren't wobbly like the first.

rcassent

05-15-2006, 12:39 PM

thanks for all the inputs on the mackie 400f. i purchesed one and have been testing the unit for 1 week and there are pro and cons. the 4 line level inputs (channels 5-8) are what they say they are. They will not produce recordable gain without another preamp. the mackie Diagrams shows a user plugging in a keyboard as if it was going to be a hot enough signal to record. The gain is minamal and not loud engough to generate a wave that will have to be edited (Normalize Audio) in a program like sonar. The headphone outputs are also a low gain item. I have the headphone cranked all the way and MAckie tech support informed me that it should be knocking my headphones off my head. this is not the case. I need to check the DSP and see if there are any setting problems there but at first glance it looks OK. My third issue is input echo with Sonar. I am trying to monitor record output with Sonar and the onyx. when i turn on the input echo i get a delay. i do not have this problem with my Delta 1010. i am using ASIO drivers and i tried changing settings to shorten latency. any one have any ideas on this issue?

On the plus side, the onyx 4 pre channels (1-4) soung great with my Octava's, Sure's AKG's micraphones. No pops or clicks (except when you turn on the unit) during recording. Yes i would say it is a little bright but i like it like that. overall i rate the unit a 7 on a 1 to 10 scale but i do not know if i am going to keep the unit or search for a better one. I am really looking for a 8 pre-amp firewire unit and this is not the answer. i did not test SPDIF yet. once again, i appreciate all the input on the 21 pages of reading i did. alot of useful information.

Badside

05-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by d. gauss
i didn't want to take the chance sending it back, being tied up for a long time period and not having anything (or any cash) in the meantime.

today (15th) was the postmark date for the 100 buck rebate, so i just washed my hands of the whole thing. :(

plus, i mean come on mackie, i spent the money TWICE, at two different dealers. not a high confidence factor there.

i will say that at least on the 2nd unit, the knobs weren't wobbly like the first.

Yeah, the downtime you have to go through when you send it to Mackie is a PITA, but the other two units I was considering (Focusrite Saffire Pro and Presonus Firestudio) kept being pushed back (last time I checked, they are due mid-July) so I could wait for something that nobody heard, or wait for something I knew I liked. Of course there are offerings from Motu, Edirol and M-Audio, but none of them sound as good IMHO,

Anyway, I've learned to work around the issue. I just take my "Control room" out from the 1-2 output in the back and use an outboard volume control. As for the preamps, the phantom power whine really isn't that much of a problem in normal use, or at least, to me it is much less of a problem than having to endure the Edirol preamps I had to work with the other day! The whine is pretty much the same level as the background hiss anyway, so if you need to crank the preamps high enough to hear it, you are getting noise no matter what. The problem is that the whine sticks out like a sore thumb since it is frequency specific (someone over at the Mackie forum recorded it and posted a frequency analysys, you can clearly see/hear it, if anyone is curious). I don't have a problem with the headphone outputs, and as far as the preamp gain knobs are concerned, I didn't notice until this thread made me check it out. Yeah, they feel cheap as hell… but that's all I can afford right now.

So I guess you have to make a choice:
- Work around some issues
- Use something (else) that doesn't sound as good
- Get your checkbook and buy something better!
I guess if I could get that multi-channel interface by Prism (for a mere 11 000$) I wouldn't have to worry about this stuff. Even just an Apogee AD16X would do. Too bad the new Ensemble is Mac only...

Or maybe… who knows… the Firestudio might be everything we all dream about. With 8 preamps instead of 4, ADAT i/o, and a remote control with talk-back built-in…

But me I've decided to stop holding my breath and I can now make music instead of worrying about this stuff :)

d. gauss

05-15-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Hardtailed
The problem is that the whine sticks out like a sore thumb since it is frequency specific (someone over at the Mackie forum recorded it and posted a frequency analysys, you can clearly see/hear it, if anyone is curious).

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000781

rcassent

05-15-2006, 02:27 PM

Reply to Hardtailed that stated

"I don't have a problem with the headphone outputs"

I have my turned up all the way ((10) and it is like normal. What number (1-10) is your headphone output at for a normal listening volume?

Boffinry

05-18-2006, 04:20 PM

Update to my above post - I've installled the beta firmware update recently and prima facie it has made a huge difference to the fluctuating latency and noise probs in Logic. Nothing conclusive yet for my particular problems, but first impression is that Mackie have nailed it. Yay! :)

Badside

05-18-2006, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by rcassent
Reply to Hardtailed that stated

"I don't have a problem with the headphone outputs"

I have my turned up all the way ((10) and it is like normal. What number (1-10) is your headphone output at for a normal listening volume?

Are you crazy, that'd be way too loud :eek:

No, it's more like 5-7.

rcassent

05-19-2006, 07:44 AM

reply to Hardtail - Are you crazy, that'd be way too loud

No, it's more like 5-7.

I tested the head phone again and i had it cranked and i still did not get louder than normal gain. 5-7 is like 10 on my onyx so this unit must have an issue. i tested a second onyx and it had louder head phone output which you would consider normal (5-7). the problem with this second unit was that channel 4 had that high pitch noise when i turned up the volume. i also noticed that the volume knobs pot's were not as tight as the 1st unit i had. these units were purchased at GC! i am testing this second onyx as a standalone pre-amp with a Delta 1010 as the interface. after some more testing, i am going to re-install the onyx drivers and try the firewire interface again.

thanks for the reply

d. gauss

05-19-2006, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by rcassent
reply to Hardtail - Are you crazy, that'd be way too loud

i am testing this second onyx as a standalone pre-amp with a Delta 1010 as the interface.

huh? AFAIK, there are no direct outs on the 400f WITHOUT going thru the converters first. i believe all routing is thru the DSP.

Badside

05-19-2006, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by d. gauss

huh? AFAIK, there are no direct outs on the 400f WITHOUT going thru the converters first. i believe all routing is thru the DSP.

You can use the inserts and use only the "send" part. It's unbalanced, but it works.

However, I'm pretty sure that, with the clock rate high enough, most people wouldn't be able to hear the difference if you did go through the DSP mixer to route the preamps back through the regular outputs.

rcassent

05-20-2006, 11:41 AM

quote: d. gauss
huh? AFAIK, there are no direct outs on the 400f WITHOUT going thru the converters first. i believe all routing is thru the DSP.

quote: hardtailed - You can use the inserts and use only the "send" part. It's unbalanced, but it works.

However, I'm pretty sure that, with the clock rate high enough, most people wouldn't be able to hear the difference if you did go through the DSP mixer to route the preamps back through the regular outputs.

I think you are correct on this one d. gauss about routing thru the DSP because it sure dont work without it. I put 4 drum mics. in the 4 mackie mic pre's and Use the mackie as a standalone pre-amp, taking the outputs from the 400f into the Delta 1010 and yes it did not seperate the micraphones when recorded in Sonar. I would select a individual track for each input device (1 bass drum) (2 snare) (3 left overhead) (4 right overhead) and assign each to its own track in Sonar. When i recorded, each track would record all 4 micraphones on each track. Sonar inputs were assigned correctly.

When i did instrumets (keyboards) with built in pre's (line level) on the 400f, the same thing happened. When i plugged the Instruments directly into the delta 1010, i had perfect seperation.

Mackie support told me that using the 400f as a stand alone pre-amp should work fine using the outputs of the 400f to the inputs of the delta1010. i should get seperation. they said this was a Sonar software or Delta 1010 control panel issue.

Didn't happen when i tried it .

Sonar support said this was a Mackie issue. There was perfect channel/ input/output seperation when i used devices plugged directly into the Delta 1010 and Sonar. So maybe i need to use the mackie DSP but this means reconnecting the firewire and those mackie ASIO drivers.

i guess i can try the hardtailed solution first with the inserts and see if that works. i am not sure how to configure that solution.

By the way, Cakewalk tech support does not recommend Mackie 400f as a firewire audio interface at this time. they have had alot of issues. it is still not on their recommended list for audio interfaces. they think their interface needs work but also said they are new at the audio interface game.

.

Badside

05-20-2006, 12:08 PM

How are you connecting the 400F to the 1010?

To record on separate tracks in Sonar, you have to send each preamp to a different input on your 1010.
One way is to open the 400F's control panel, activate the DSP mixer and mute everything but the first two channels on output pair 1-2 and pan inputs 1-2 hard left and hard right, then do the same thing for output pair 3-4 except you leave only inputs 3-4 unmuted, again panned hard left and hard right.

If you just plug the first output pair into a pair of input on the 1010 with everything panned center in the 400F's control panel, then there is no way your Delta or Sonar can separate the track.

The other way is, as I've said: put a Y-connector in each inserts and use the "send" part and route every channel to a separate input on your 1010. This is the best way as you are avoiding the AD/DA cycle of going through the DSP mixer. (you can to this the other way around if you want to get true line-ins on the first 4 inputs)

However, I can't see this being the best solution. At 700$, I consider the 400F to be quite a good deal, however, for just the 4 preamps, it's a bit on the expensive side.
And the truth is that the AD/DA conversion on the 400F is better than on the 1010. You'll get more dynamic range, more bandwidth and a steadier clock with the 400F.
That is assuming you can make it work...

On my computer, I just installed the drivers (the latest on their website), plugged the thing in, started Sonar and went to work. I'm using it in ASIO mode as per Craig's recommendation (it does seem to work better anyway), with the buffer size at 256. Latency is pretty low, but it's of no incidence to me, I don't use any outboard equipment.

rcassent

05-20-2006, 12:33 PM

reply to hardtailed -How are you connecting the 400F to the 1010?

the outputs of 400f to the inputs of delta 1010 1to1 2 to 2 3 to 3
4 to 4. remember, i am testing 400f as a straight pre so there is no firewire connected at this time. Cannot not use the mackie software until i install it as an interface not a stand alone. thought it might work as a one to one routing without using the
the 400f control panel

reply to hardtailed
One way is to open the 400F's control panel, activate the DSP mixer and mute everything but the first two channels on output pair 1-2 and pan inputs 1-2 hard left and hard right, then do the same thing for output pair 3-4 except you leave only inputs 3-4 unmuted, again panned hard left and hard right. If you just plug the first output pair into a pair of input on the 1010 with everything panned center in the 400F's control panel, then there is no way your Delta or Sonar can separate the track.

i will re-install the mackie console and try this. I just wanted to see how the mackie would work as a stand alone pre. i was getting too much latency with the mackie and when i went back to the delta 1010, the delay went away. i have tried many adjustments to get rid of the 400f latency but it was not working
that why i hate to re-install it but i will give it a shot again

reply to hardtailed - However, I can't see this being the best solution. At 700$, I consider the 400F to be quite a good deal, however, for just the 4 preamps, it's a bit on the expensive side

I agree but i need some fidelity along with stabilty so i can record.

On my computer, I just installed the drivers (the latest on their website), plugged the thing in, started Sonar and went to work. I'm using it in ASIO mode as per Craig's recommendation (it does seem to work better anyway), with the buffer size at 256. Latency is pretty low, but it's of no incidence to me, I don't use any outboard equipment.

i will try this also. thanks for the good reply!

rcassent

05-23-2006, 06:04 AM

reply to hardtailed - How are you connecting the 400F to the 1010? One way is to open the 400F's control panel, activate the DSP mixer

Everything worked as you said. i have total seperation on each channel and track now. i did as you explained for all the outputs on the mackie DSP.

1. activate the DSP mixer and mute everything but the first two channels on output pair 1-2 and pan inputs 1-2 hard left and hard right, then do the same thing for output pair 3-4 except you leave only inputs 3-4 unmuted. I did this for all pairs on the DSP.
Worked great. i also learned that once you have this set and saved, you can disconnect the firewire and then you have a standalone interface as the setting are saved. thanks for your help on this one. i did not realize this was more of a matrix mixer so you have to tab thru all the outputs via the software.

2. i am going to try the 400f again without going thru the delta1010 since i did the firware update and i can see how it fuctions this time. After setting up the above configuration, i did not like the micraphone tone i was getting. there seem to be a slight phasing when i sang on each micraphone and it was not as clean sounding. any other tweaks you can clue me in on? once again, thanks for your input

Badside

05-23-2006, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by rcassent
... i did not like the micraphone tone i was getting. there seem to be a slight phasing when i sang on each micraphone and it was not as clean sounding. any other tweaks you can clue me in on? once again, thanks for your input

Well, you are adding an AD/DA cycle when doing this + the clocks are not synced, that might cause some artifacts. Maybe setting the 400F's clock to its highest setting could help. Or simply syncing both unit together by routing the Mackie's spdif out to the Delta's spdif in (don't forget to configure the Delta so its synced to its spdif input). Of course, that means you have to set the 400F's clock to whatever sample rate you are using for your projects. You can even route a pair of channels through that spdif out so you save the additionnal AD/DA cycle on that pair.

Doing the insert's send trick would probably cure this as your signal will then stay in the analog domain.

Of course, the best way is to use the 400F by itself ;)

JDP

05-23-2006, 10:00 AM

Note that if you do not pan each channel hard right or left in the Onyx 400F control pannel, the signal coming back through the DAW into the headphone jack is diminished and therefore the headphone volume is much lower.

FYI only...:D

rcassent

05-24-2006, 03:12 PM

JDP

Good info! i will check that out when i am doing further testing with onyx 400F

rich

Badside

05-25-2006, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by JDP
Note that if you do not pan each channel hard right or left in the Onyx 400F control pannel, the signal coming back through the DAW into the headphone jack is diminished and therefore the headphone volume is much lower.

FYI only...:D

I guess you mean the "output from DAW" should be panned hard left and right, which is true and is the default setting.

However, for the input channels, that doesn't really have anything to do with it. If you are recording a mono source, you'll want to pan it center, it you are recording a stereo source, you'll pan each side hard left and right (I'm talking about setting up a headphone mix for monitoring).

Music Calgary

05-27-2006, 05:16 PM

I used rewired applications with the 400F when I tested it, with Windows XP.

With Rewire, the host does all the work. The code is loaded into the host, and the "rewired" application is basically a gui. The app uses the host's drivers and syncs to the transport (this is bi-directional).

I'd look for some kind of preference in the host, like "allow sharing drivers" or "don't allow sharing drivers" or whatever. Sounds to me like the two apps are fighting over the driver, and the 400F is caught in the middle. I used rewired applications with the 400F when I tested it, with Windows XP.

Hi Craig, OK I'll take your word on that, I have had no success reproducing your feat though. Anyhow the reason 2 apps connot run together in harmony, such as they easily would with practically any other audio interface on the market, is the 400F drivers. Here's confirmation of that from Justin of Mackie:
http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000805

Now then, let's exmaine this. If that were indeed a "feature" :D then why would they have an "edit with" function in Tracktion and bundle that for 400F users? It can never work. So it's obviously a flaw. Add to this the poor manner in which Tracktion handles working with multiple VST GUIs open at the same time and it's simply a dealbuster.

In other words, I'm not challenging your statement that you got the 400F to work with reqire devices. What I am challenging is the realism of that test. I don't believe that anyone has ever got it working in any meaningful way and that's all that matters, i.e. the way in which everyday recordists work in the real world.

People can apologize for Mackie until the cows come home but the fact remains that the Onyx drivers are not ready for prime time. Period.

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000814

They've known about it all along so it's obviously something they deemed "unworthy of resources". Some scary decisions at Mackie these days. For the want of a tiny driver tweak they have dozens of people walking around the audio community badmouthing them. It's fundamentally bad business practice by any standard.

Thalweg

05-30-2006, 06:07 PM

Hello All...

New here and I bid you fine greetings.

As a result of the detailed review of the 400F system I went out and purchased one today :)

It is great! Excellent installation procedures. Piece of cake. More importantly...the sound is of great quality and very pleasing. Well done Mackie...

I'm using Sonar 5.1 and it recoginzed it no problems.

Question I have is..no where in the doc's does it specify 16 bit or 24 bit depth operation. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Is the unit capable of 24 bit operation?

Thank you for such an indepth review and its very pleasing to see the mackie team participating in this forum.

Kind regards to all.

Thalweg

rcassent

05-30-2006, 06:14 PM

reply to Thalweg

I have is..no where in the doc's does it specify 16 bit or 24 bit depth operation. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Is the unit capable of 24 bit operation?

The manual states the onyx uses 24bit converters and 24 bit word length. this is fixed and cannot be changed. it is best to keep bit depth at 24-bits until you are ready to burn the audio CD. Dither down in Sonar.

page 23 - using the onyx 400f Console

Anderton

05-30-2006, 06:42 PM

<<In other words, I'm not challenging your statement that you got the 400F to work with reqire devices. What I am challenging is the realism of that test. >>

Well, it's certainly the way that I work -- I'm a huge fan of ReWire. But I wasn't really testing the limitation you describe, as two ReWired applications are functionally equivalent to one large application.

As far as I can tell, WDM drivers are much more tolerant to servicing multiple applications than ASIO. Here's hoping that the upcoming audio services in Vista do everything we want and more... :)

rcassent

05-30-2006, 06:45 PM

reply to hardtailed

Of course, the best way is to use the 400F by itself

I did another 3 days worth of testing with the 400f and delta 1010 with Sonar. I am still using the delta1010 as my interface. You might think i am a little crazy but the 400f does not provide me with 8 total inputs for recording and the delta1010 does with the 400f as a standalone pre. The 4 mic pre's on the 400f work great and our loud but the 4 line inputs have no gain. the 400f manual shows a diagram with a keyboard plugged into the low level line inputs on the onyx 400f. There is little gain on these inputs and with any keyboard using full gain, the DB results are min, so the diagram is misleading in that respect. Now if i wanted to use 4 more pre's and or a SPIF device attached to the Oynx, i could concevily use the 400f as a firewire interface and probably have sufficant gain and 8 to 10 channels to record from.

by using the 400f as a standalone (still firewire connected so i can use the Matrix mixer), i was able to record 4 mics and 4 instruments in this configuration. I got a quality recording. (3 mics on drums, a trumpet, left and right paino, and line out of a bass amp for bass.

Reply to Hardtailed

Well, you are adding an AD/DA cycle when doing this + the clocks are not synced, that might cause some artifacts. Maybe setting the 400F's clock to its highest setting could help. Or simply syncing both unit together by routing the Mackie's spdif out to the Delta's spdif in (don't forget to configure the Delta so its synced to its spdif input). Of course, that means you have to set the 400F's clock to whatever sample rate you are using for your projects. You can even route a pair of channels through that spdif out so you save the additionnal AD/DA cycle on that pair.

i matched the sample rates and in record and play back mode, the tone is good, but when i input echo on sonar, this is where i still get phasing. i am going to try the SPDIF configuration this week as you state above. i did do the firmware updates.

The headphone low output that i stated in my 1st form entry is now a myth after reconfigurations. the head phone outs are kicking. but the high pitch noise on channel 4 is a reality when phatom power is turned on and channel 4 is above a normal gain level. thanks for your input Hardtailed!

Thalweg

05-30-2006, 07:23 PM

Indeed...page 23. Thank-you very kindly.

Thalweg

Music Calgary

05-30-2006, 08:59 PM

Here's hoping that the upcoming audio services in Vista do everything we want and more.

A true optimist. :D

Badside

05-31-2006, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by rcassent
I did another 3 days worth of testing with the 400f and delta 1010 with Sonar. I am still using the delta1010 as my interface. You might think i am a little crazy but the 400f does not provide me with 8 total inputs for recording and the delta1010 does with the 400f as a standalone pre.

Then something is obviously wrong in your configuration. I got 8 inputs without any work in Sonar. In Sonar's audio properties you need to activate all inputs. Then you should be able to assignate any of the 8 inputs to any track for recording. Of course they will be listed as pairs (from 1 to 9 including spdif), so you have 5 pairs with the option to use the left or right channel of each pair (so really 15 possible inputs). Left is the first channel, right is the second (for example: right of channel pair #5 is really #6).

But of course, the Delta works the same way so that shouldn't be a problem... just make sure all channels are activated in your configuration.

Originally posted by rcassent
The 4 mic pre's on the 400f work great and our loud but the 4 line inputs have no gain. the 400f manual shows a diagram with a keyboard plugged into the low level line inputs on the onyx 400f. There is little gain on these inputs and with any keyboard using full gain, the DB results are min, so the diagram is misleading in that respect.

I'm not using any synth so I can't say. I've connected my PodXT Live to the inputs 5-6 and I can clip them without turning the Pod's volume all the way up. There is a thread going on over the the recording forum (Phil O'Keefe's one I think) about recording levels. They are explaining that 0dB on your converter is really + 22dBFS (or something around that depending on the interface). The nominal recording level is said to be around -18dB on most digital recorders, higher and you are limiting headroom for transient and high frequency response. -18 is not even half of the available headroom, so it is a bit scary at first to record and see a waveform that barely rises from the middle point, but it makes total sense from an electronic point of view (converters are analog devices, remember that). And when you start piling up tracks, the total output rises. If you record everything close to 0dB, you need to pull down on the faders when mixing to not clip the final mix anyway.
There is a reason why the -6dB light is yellow and not green ;)

The reason there is no gain on the 5-8 inputs is that they kept the signal path as clean as possible. Having a gain there means you really have an amplifier in the path (inputs 1-4 for example are not true line inputs, they are just padded inputs that go through the Onyx preamps).

rcassent

05-31-2006, 10:23 AM

reply to hardtailed

Then something is obviously wrong in your configuration. I got 8 inputs without any work in Sonar. In Sonar's audio properties you need to activate all inputs. Then you should be able to assignate any of the 8 inputs to any track for recording.

I did a bad job on my expanation. Channels 5-8 on the onyx have
working recordable inputs but they are very low level as you stated in your last post. So to record, even with Sonar, there is not enough level without using an additional preamp for these line level channels. My keyboards or a line level input device(tape deck or CD) do not produce a hot enough siginal thru the 400f. the channels do record but the wave they produce is very small. Not true with the delta1010. Line level inputs produce enough siginal to record and playback with alot of headroom. no need to normailize audio.
I can record using the 400f channels 5-8 and then normalize audio
in sonar but this is an extra step and i am still stuck with low level monitoring when i record. Channels 1-4 are hot as you stated
(padded inputs that go through the Onyx preamps) with plenty of head room. thanks for your reply. you keep me thinking!

There is a thread going on over the the recording forum (Phil O'Keefe's one I think) about recording levels.

can you post that link?

thanks

Badside

05-31-2006, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by rcassent
can you post that link?
thanks

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1242887

BTW, out of curiosity. When you record your synths with inputs 5-8, what is the average signal level?

rcassent

05-31-2006, 11:13 AM

reply to hardtailed

BTW, out of curiosity. When you record your synths with inputs 5-8, what is the average signal level?

I will check the siginal tonight and post it tommorow
thanks for the URL

gighunterII

06-04-2006, 01:41 PM

just a guess, signal level will be very very low.

Music Calgary

06-05-2006, 01:33 AM

My second 400F died. The firewire port fried and took out the firewire port on my motherboard in the process. Dealer exchanged it for a new one, I am now on unit 3. And I'm not the only one, a user at the Mackie forums is now going on unit #4!!!

Pretty hard to maintain that these are quality units. Look before you leap.

Pete Lyall

06-09-2006, 10:02 PM

Folks -

I have plenty of pro grade gear and connectivity in my regular home studio. The problem is that this space is also my home office, and when I'm not on the road, I spend probably 10-12 hours a day there doing my 'real' job. The result is that when I finally close up shop for the day, the last thing I want to do is stay in that office/studio.

I set out to solve this problem by purchasing a MacBook Pro 17 and Logic Pro 7.2. The idea was that I could start recording/tracking and etching out song ideas downstairs. I have a small Presonus Firebox that I stole from my other Mac, and with various modelers, amps, mics, and guitars around the house I figured this should do it.

I started researching my options to see if there was a better solution in the form of a firewire interface for the MacBook. As you might imagine, I came across the MOTU Traveler and Ultralite, the RME Fireface 800 and 400 (when?), and the Mackie Onyx 400F. I noted that some folks on the net had less than stellar remarks to make about the mic preamps in the Firebox, and also the MOTU Ultralite.

I have a lot of respect for Mackie, and still own a number of their pieces (SDR-24/96, 1402-VLZ mixer, Universal remote, etc.) I specifically have respect for their solid state preamps, and thought the 400 might be the answer.

After reading this thread over the span of yesterday and today, I'm presently not planning to buy the Onyx 400F. This is a bummer, as I thought I had found my solution. I will likely need to head towards a Traveler or one of the RME units.

I just wanted to sum up the issues that I have located in this thread, and see if there's something that's been squared away that I'm not seeing. Also - if there are redeeming features (such as a new batch of units that address the shortcomings), I'd like to hear about them.

Onyx 400F - Quality Issues
=====================

Brittle high end in DACs - subjective (and I too like high end), but obviously caught some users'/readers' attention. I don't recall seeing many other reviews anywhere stating that something was too clear or too bright. Again - given the choice, I'll take it brighter than duller.

Not surround capable - Huh? You cannot address the individual outputs from within your software? What are they good for other than potentially monitoring or post pre-amp analog?If this is true, this is a waste of outputs. This would be a deal breaker for me, as I have been working in surround for a while now.

Lack of appropriate gain on line inputs 5-8? That effectively removes these from the feature list for me. Is there an internal pad that can be jumpered around?

Firewire whine? (grounding) - resolved?

Phantom power whine?

C/R & Phones whine?

Recall issues (like those at GC)? Stories of multiple returns?

Firewire problems - one user mentioned blowing up his MB?

WDM driver issues in SONAR - like it or not, this is probably one of the most popular PC recording applications (if not the most popular). Working with Audition is nice, but that is not the 'killer app' for the music centric PC (and I do own Cubase SX as well). ASIO alone is not the solution (see next).

Paraphrasing Mackie: "Why would you want to use WDM when you can use ASIO with Sonar?" Here's the biggie as I see it: WDM lets you use different interfaces concurrently. In my case this means the Lynx AES16 with my Apogee Rosetta 800/192 while also using my MOTU PCI-424 (interfaces to my Tascam DM-24) and my Mackie SDR-24/96.

Driver 'Hijack" issues?

Build quality (knobs, etc) - more than one user.

=====================

In any case, while it may sound like I'm trashing the unit, I really wanted things to work out. Can anything short of a re-release of the 400F (400F-V2 ?) bring back general confidence (mine and others') in the unit?

Apologies in advance to Dan - I've seen how helpful and candid he has been.

Pete Lyall

Music Calgary

06-10-2006, 09:51 PM

If I had it to do over, I would like at the RME and MOTU myself. I wouldn't buy a 400F until the drivers have been properly sorted out. Mackie mentioned in their forum they might be looking into that but they haven't actually offered anything, so who knows if that's even going to happen. Anyhow the one major thing about the 400F you would probably find a dealbreaker is that only one audio app at a time can operate. This means no concurrent audio interfaces. Until they update the 400F driver in that regard, it's probably not the unit for you judging from what info you've shared.

Brittanylips

06-14-2006, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Pete Lyall
I have a lot of respect for Mackie, and still own a number of their pieces (SDR-24/96, 1402-VLZ mixer, Universal remote, etc.) I specifically have respect for their solid state preamps, and thought the 400 might be the answer.

After reading this thread over the span of yesterday and today, I'm presently not planning to buy the Onyx 400F. This is a bummer, as I thought I had found my solution. I will likely need to head towards a Traveler or one of the RME units.
Earlier on in the thread, Mike Rivers suggested I harvest it for stats. On a sleepless night in a hotel, I did just that. (and it worked better than Ambien).

I made a list of only those people who actually used the 400f in their studio, and recorded only their 1st person experience. Here’s the results:

Craig received his unit from Mackie and reported excellent performance.

Of 22 users who bought their units through regular channels:

- 3 are happy without reservation

- 6 are generally satisfied but report problems

- 13 express multiple problems and regret the purchase

Correcting for extremities (removing the single most negative and positive response) yields 2:6:12:

- 10% happy
- 30% satisfied with reservations
- 60% unhappy

Of the 13 who express multiple problems and regret:

- 1/3 expressed initial satisfaction, but as problems mounted with continued use, satisfaction turned to regret over the course of the thread.

- 6 expressed initial unit failure and regret

- Of the 2 who exchanged their units for a new one, both expressed dissatisfaction with the replacement; one exchanged the 2nd unit for a 3rd unit.

Problems reported include:

- Bright converters (a problem for some, an asset for others)

- Headphone output issue

- Multiple Hum and Whine issues

- Insufficient gain issues

- Pops when turning on and off

- Latency on G5 issue – subsequently resolved by Mackie

- Wobbly knobs and build quality issues

- Driver Issues – problems working with sonar, cakewalk, and multiple active programs.

- Damage to computer.

Like you, Pete, I own high, medium, and low end gear, and a 1402-VLZ is always on hand, one of my favorite “just in case” pieces of gear. But given what amounts to stunning levels of customer dissatisfaction, I can’t imagine buying a 400f anytime soon.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

Pete Lyall

06-14-2006, 01:02 PM

Thanks to both Music Calgary and Brittanylips for the replies.

It appears that the stats that Brittanylips collated substantiated my much less scientific scanning of this thread. To be fair, this is not the only location I had seen Mac Firewire driver issues mentioned, and the hint is that there may have been some Apple Core Audio issues. If anybody has more detail on these, I'd like to hear about them.

As I mentioned, at present I have a Firebox. It seems fine, and I'm in no particular hurry. Honestly, I haven't used the mic preamps yet, other than to receive my DI box output (Radial JDV). Other folks online have panned the mic pres on both this and the MOTU Ultralite as being lacking.

Given the fallout of the Mackie unit (unless something changes),
I have somewhat retargeted my search. I would appreciate any remarks that folks have to offer, whether they are positive or negative. Presently, the units I'm investigating are as follows:

MOTU TRAVELER - $750-$850

Looks very capable, and I haven't seen any negative press on it. The price is not bad, and the feature set looks pretty comprehensive. The worst thing I've heard is that the build is somewhat flimsy for a portable. This probably won't be an issue in the living room.

FOCUSRITE SAFFIRE and SAFFIRE PRO - $399/$699

This unit also looks quite nice. Focusrite has a reasonable reputation in the mic preamp market. The vertical PC oriented unit looks somewhat cheap (and others have noted this), but the fact that it has built-in DSP to do reverb foldback for monitoring without incurring the roundtrip delay of going in and out of the DAW seems like a great feature. The PRO 1u rack version seems to have a more versatile I/O structure, but no DSP.

RME FIREFACE 400 and 800 ???/$1500

I can't really find much on the 400 yet - is it released? On the 800, it does look like a great box, and I have seen a lot of positive buzz around the net. Other than a steep price and a possible lack of portability (not a big deal), I cannot see a downside to this device.

APOGEE ENSEMBLE - $1800

The integration messaging (for Apple products) is very seductive. While this unit is the highest in price and possibly the lowest number of I/O's (no MIDI, etc.), the branding and the integration with Logic are hard to resist. I do have an Apogee Rosetta 192 with the firewire card, but I really didn't want to have to drag separate mic preamps out of the main studio. Also I hear that this has been chronically delayed do to software issues (some say Apple driver problems).

In any case, I'd appreciate your thoughts on these options.

If I have taken the core topic too far afield, my apologies. I did start out looking at the Onyx.

Pete

Music Calgary

06-14-2006, 03:38 PM

FWIW if I had it to do over and I had a bit more of a budget I'd get DACs from Mytek, i.e.
http://www.mytekdigital.com/products/8x192adda.htm

And different pres for each specific task, i.e. for $700 you can get a DAV BG-1 which will outperform most other pres in that range so far as doing vocals, etc. As you know it's better to have different pres for different tasks. A lot of this comes down to your requirements vs. your budget. If I had the money I'd probably get into an API lunchbox as a front end for the Mytek. But I don't. :)

Anyhow here's what a forum user Rich Mays from another audio forum had to say about the Mackie:

It stayed for one job and I sold it the next week. My ears felt sandpapered and the highly-touted Onxyx micpres were not even close to the Benchmarks.

In retrospect, though, I should not have expected a $400 box to sound on the same level as the Benchmark micpres. The surprise was that the A/D side did not come close (to my ears) to the Masterlink A/Ds it was supposed to replace.

I sold it quickly and bought a Metric Halo 2882. Clearly superior A/D, better micpres (but not as quiet). The Benchmark remains the primary micpre front end, and they are beyond reproach. Twice the money but more than twice the performance and flexibility in the Metric Halo 2882.

I started by saying it was for classical. I prefer to add color later (if at all). For the studio it is an entirely different approach. The guy who bought it got a good deal and he must be happy as I have not heard from him!

MikeRivers

06-14-2006, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips

Earlier on in the thread, Mike Rivers suggested I harvest it for stats. On a sleepless night in a hotel, I did just that. (and it worked better than Ambien). Nice work, and interesting stats. Of course this isn't a very large sample, but the ratios seem to jive with my impression from reading the messages.

Now, get some sleep.

Pete Lyall

06-14-2006, 05:15 PM

Whoa!

I looked at the link for Mytekdigital. Based on what I saw, you may end up with an amazing unit, but you will do it cafeteria style (buy this part, then that part), and will pay handsomely for it as well. The firewire card alone lists for more than you can get a new Traveler on eBay. After that, you would still need to address the issue of mic preamps.

I do have the Rosetta 192/Firewire and some preamps, as well as other front end gear in the 'real' studio. While I am prone to going overboard, I'm trying not to go to crazy for this application.

In my case, I think this would be overkill. I'm really still just looking for a reasonably high quality one-size-fits-all solution to hang off of my new Macbook Pro 17 (firewire).

Given that you obviously have pretty upper end tastes, do any of the four groups of units I mentioned a few posts back even remotely float your boat? Emit air bubbles even?

Thanks!

Pete

MikeRivers

06-15-2006, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by Pete Lyall
I looked at the link for Mytekdigital. Based on what I saw, you may end up with an amazing unit, but you will do it cafeteria style (buy this part, then that part), and will pay handsomely for it as well.That's the real engineer's way to do it. If you want to buy a do-it-all box, you have to accept the decisions (of which selling price is a big one) that the manufacturer makes. If you assemble a system from components, you get to choose where to spend the most money, and what you can put aside and upgrade later. You won't get all the benefit of the A/D converter if you cheap out on the mic preamp, but when you scrape up the money for a better mic preamp, you'll really be upgrading two things, and that's a good deal.
In my case, I think this would be overkill. I'm really still just looking for a reasonably high quality one-size-fits-all solution to hang off of my new Macbook Pro 17 (firewire). In that case, you can't worry about the performance of the individual parts inside the box and you have to listen to the whole box and evaluate the functions. Most important, you want it to work. It doesn't matter how good or bad the mic preamps are if the driver is unstable, or if there's noise in the headphone jack that will drive you nuts since you listen to it all the time. Accept the faults that you can live with, and reject the device that has faults that you can't live with. And if you can't find one box that you can live with, you always have the option of the system approach.

Brittanylips

06-15-2006, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
That's the real engineer's way to do it. If you want to buy a do-it-all box, you have to accept the decisions (of which selling price is a big one) that the manufacturer makes. If you assemble a system from components, you get to choose where to spend the most money, and what you can put aside and upgrade later.
I think that's less and less true. You know, the same argument was initially made against DAWs, and at first, “real engineers” avoided them. Now they are the landscape. Same with these things.

Times have changed, and more functions are included into single devices as part of the natural evolution of the field, and with broad consumer choices.

I recall that at one time the PowR dithering algorithm was offered by itself in a fabulously expensive box that did that and nothing else. And it certainly seemed “real engineery” to buy one. Now, it’s just another subroutine in the robust world of a DAW.

Which isn’t to rail against the hard core sluttiness of dedicated components. Just that the dichotomy between good and separate vs. bad and together is not as true as it used to be (hastily-rushed-to-market falling-apart-at-the-seams low-end all-in-ones notwithstanding…)

Originally posted by Pete Lyall
I do have the Rosetta 192/Firewire and some preamps, as well as other front end gear in the 'real' studio. ...I'm really still just looking for a reasonably high quality one-size-fits-all solution to hang off of my new Macbook Pro 17 (firewire).
I get the sense that we have similar setups, main with bells and whistles plus Apple laptop for portable.

I have a FireFace 800 which is both flexible and solid, and a great example of an all-in-one without a lot of compromise. Plus, RME offers great support. It sounds like you would do OK with less inputs and flexibility for your portable interface, so the 800 might be feature overkill, but the extra features and flexibility certainly don’t hurt to have around, and you could buy it today. The FireFace 400 should be available late July/early August for around $1000.

If you don’t need all the inputs and flexibility and can wait, the Apogee Ensemble should be killer. Actually, given the team that’s worked on it, it should be more like mass murderer (great pres, great converters). I have heard it’s on the verge of shipping; however, early units may be spoken for. I would imagine that this is one of those products that makes “cafeteria style” recording that much more of a relic. And at $1800, it’s a bargain in its class although not exactly entry-level.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

Pete Lyall

06-15-2006, 10:52 AM

First we need to remember that Mike dates back to the invention of the transistor ;^} (Don't worry Mike - I'm hovering in that neighborhood as well). In fact I chatted with Mike a few years back in the Mackie digital recorder forum (I authored the quiet fan mod for the SDR-24/96).

I'm with Brittanylips on this one. While I know the general philosophy is that 'buy an all-in-one, you get less in each department than if you had bought separates', I do believe that advances in ASIC design have brought really decent combo units to market. This is similar to what has happened in the consumer audio space. It used to be taboo to buy a receiver, and preferable to by an integrared amp, or better yet a separate preamp and power amp. I have two receivers in my main listening/viewing spaces these days. Audiophile grade? Absolutely not. Am I pleased with them? Absolutely.

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable in this marketplace to want to find a decent collection of I/O capabilities (line/inst/mic, various digital I/O's, and a clean and dependable host interface).

My goal is to find something that's portable enough so that if I want to move from the great room to the living room, I won't spend 15 minutes moving and recabling. I want something that's decent enough quality-wise that if I do hit the inspirational mother lode, that I can transfer my tracks up to my primary studio without having to redo them. (I know this is an arguable rationale).

To paraphrase Freddy Mercury - "I want it all, and I want it now".

Oh - and without breaking the bank ;^}

MikeRivers

06-15-2006, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
Times have changed, and more functions are included into single devices as part of the natural evolution of the field, and with broad consumer choices."Consumer" being the operative word here. Recording equipment is sold largely as consumer products today, to people who aren't engineers, who don't really know what's going on inside the box, and just want to record music. Some (I'm talking about the gear, not musicians) is better than others, and some are just going through the motions. But I'll admit that for the casual user (which is the hat the Pete seems to have on in this thread), most of them aren't really dreadful, and someone who understands what he's doing can get pretty darn good results with stuff that it's easy to toss off as "low end junk."

There's still a market for individual components and that's what keeps some manufacturers in business. It's easy to make an OK preamp or A/D converter, but it's hard to make a really great one. For those who care (and not everybody has to care) it's available, but at the component level.

You can buy a $13.95 boom box, you can buy a $300 boom box, or you can spend $50,000 on a pair of speakers, $30,000 on single channel 15 watt triod amplifiers with a chassis milled out of a solid block of aluminum, and so on until you work your way back to the $500 phono cartridge in the $1800 tone arm on the $10,000 turntable. But if you just want to play CDs at band practice, the $13.95 boom box will work fine.
Which isn’t to rail against the hard core sluttiness of dedicated components. Just that the dichotomy between good and separate vs. bad and together is not as true as it used to be (hastily-rushed-to-market falling-apart-at-the-seams low-end all-in-ones notwithstanding…) No arguments there - I'm perfectly happy with my Onyx mixer and Firewire card, but I have component gear that sounds better when I'm in a position to use it.

And if my calculations are correct, this is my 200th post. I'll be waiting for the bells and whistles.

rcassent

06-15-2006, 05:52 PM

reply to hardtailed from BTW, out of curiosity. When you record your synths with inputs 5-8, what is the average signal level?

Sorry for taking so long. averge signal level is -18DB when recorded in Sonar and that is being generous. my synths are maxed at that point. I did do a sucessful muliti track live recording using the 400f as a standalone with the delta 1010 as the interface. the recording came out quite nice. 7 audio in's and 4 midi inputs recording live without any issues. mackie actually called me and said they are sending me my 100 dollar rebate after calling them to B***H about it.

thanks for all your help Hardtailed. i am still going to look at the RME fireface.

Music Calgary

06-16-2006, 06:52 AM

The more I'm learning, the more I'm realizing it all comes down to context. In my case the 1220 DB25-ed into the 400F gives me 8 channels of digital pres which are perfectly usable for tracking rock drums, voiceovers, etc.

So as long as I can add one premium channel to that and a couple premium mics, I should be OK for all the stuff I'm doing, i.e. I'm not tracking live bands. My view is that it's better to go out and spend $700 on a DAV BG-1 and $1400 on a Mytek DAC to have a truly pro quality channel right now than to buy a bunch of
"stepping stone" gear on the way.

I'm no gear snob though. As far as I'm concerned all prosumer gear nowadays is perfectly capable of making a decent album in the hands of the right people. It's all about the music and the vision.

The main beef I have with the 400F is the drivers, not the sound. The drivers are the pits. The sound is quite reasonable.

Brittanylips

06-16-2006, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
"Consumer" being the operative word here. Recording equipment is sold largely as consumer products today, to people who aren't engineers, who don't really know what's going on inside the box, and just want to record music. Some (I'm talking about the gear, not musicians) is better than others, and some are just going through the motions. But I'll admit that for the casual user (which is the hat the Pete seems to have on in this thread), most of them aren't really dreadful, and someone who understands what he's doing can get pretty darn good results with stuff that it's easy to toss off as "low end junk."
A couple of hundred years ago, a pianist had to know an awful lot about what goes on inside a piano. I suppose a mark of a "real pianist" was the ability to tune, voice, and fix your instrument.

I wonder though, how many of the great pianists of the last century - Rubenstien, Hoffman, Horrowitz, Argerich, Pollini, Lang Lang - ever tuned a piano in their life. My guess is none.

Once a technology matures, the experts who use it don't deal with its components, only about honing their expert use.

Recording technology, particularly digital, is remarkably young. Not wanting to know what goes on inside the box will be the hallmark of tommorrow's producers just as it is the hallmark of today's pianists.

Incidentally, my Steinway is American made but includes the German renner action which I prefer (equivalent to swapping out an opamp?). But I certainly don't mess around in there. Steinway does the work, supplemented by private technicians. All I know is that when I push a button it works.

There's nothing inherently noble about an end user ganging together seperate components. It's simply a legacy of any nascent field. So while I too cherish my outboard preamps and compressors, I'm more interested in having my recording technology as transparent as my piano technology. I just want to push a button and have it work.

So the question, I think, becomes, how shitty is too shitty? At what point do the compromises of an all-in-one make it either unacceptably low quality, or so aggravating to use that it's just not worth it?

Everyone has different standards and budgets, hence different answers. In this thread, the 400f is too shitty for 60% of its users.

And the fact that components are still good business is not, IMHO, a distinction between pro and consumer as much as it is the hallmark of a young technology.

So for me, the FireFace (and likely the Ensemble) is not too shitty, particularly when paired with my outboard. But as much as I love, for example, my Fearn preamp, in a hundred years an outboard mic pre will be as quaint as the lemur fat they used to use to grease up a piano. (I think it was lemur fat...)

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

MikeRivers

06-16-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips

A couple of hundred years ago, a pianist had to know an awful lot about what goes on inside a piano. I suppose a mark of a "real pianist" was the ability to tune, voice, and fix your instrument. I wasn't aware of that bit of history. I figured they just played their pianos out of tune until they sold a commission.I wonder though, how many of the great pianists of the last century - Rubenstien, Hoffman, Horrowitz, Argerich, Pollini, Lang Lang - ever tuned a piano in their life. My guess is none.

Once a technology matures, the experts who use it don't deal with its components, only about honing their expert use. You're right, but not for the reason you propose. The great pianists of this era all have their own piano technicians. Keeping the piano at home in good shape is just a business expense. And when they tour, either they take their own piano (and tech) or they're sponsored by a piano company who delivers a piano to the venue and a technician to set it up for the pianist and the room. Heck, even rock'n'roll bands have a staff of guitar technicians and drum technicians. Most drummers don't know how to tune their drums (and that's always been the case) but I suspect that most guitarists can still tune their guitar and change a string when it breaks. Recording technology, particularly digital, is remarkably young. Not wanting to know what goes on inside the box will be the hallmark of tommorrow's producers just as it is the hallmark of today's pianists. I'll bet that a good concert pianist knows more about what goes on inside his box than today's big name producer. Today's big name engineer is pretty interesting, though. Some of them really know what's going on inside the digital boxes even though they never grew up on analog hardware and never got any training in electronics. But they're the ones puzzled by things like what to do when connectors don't mate, or the levels are too low or high. And the major artists who have home studios (like Whitney Houston's famous living room) all have their own staff engineers who are expected to keep everyting ready to record at any time. There's nothing inherently noble about an end user ganging together seperate components. It's simply a legacy of any nascent field. So while I too cherish my outboard preamps and compressors, I'm more interested in having my recording technology as transparent as my piano technology. I just want to push a button and have it work.And today you can have that, but somebody has to do the work. If you want a Roland VS, you can just open the box. If you want a ProTools system, even if you use all Digidesign hardware, you still have to know something.So the question, I think, becomes, how shitty is too shitty? At what point do the compromises of an all-in-one make it either unacceptably low quality, or so aggravating to use that it's just not worth it?That's always the question, and the threshold is different for each of us. You can get a wide range of integrated systems, but you can always make something better if you're willing to do your own system engineering.Everyone has different standards and budgets, hence different answers. In this thread, the 400f is too shitty for 60% of its users. This is an unusual situation. There is obviously a hardware flaw in every 400F (they build them very well - all of them are alike) and 40% of the users hasn't discovered the flaw yet. But with a few exceptions, if people can get sound out of it at all, generally they like what they hear of what they want to hear. And the fact that components are still good business is not, IMHO, a distinction between pro and consumer as much as it is the hallmark of a young technology. I don't know about that. The "hi-fi" industry has been around since about 1950, hardly a young technology, and people are still buying component systems. Granted, the HTIB (Home Theater In a Box) is more popular than components, and that part IS a young industry. So for me, the FireFace (and likely the Ensemble) is not too shitty, particularly when paired with my outboard. But as much as I love, for example, my Fearn preamp, in a hundred years an outboard mic pre will be as quaint as the lemur fat they used to use to grease up a piano. (I think it was lemur fat...)Maybe in 100 years the industry will standardize on a digital microphone interface, and the tweakers will be taking apart digital microphones, installing their own preamp, and A/D converter.

Or maybe we'll just synthesize all of our music and there will be no need to play instruments at all. Oh, wait a minute - we're there now.

Music Calgary

06-16-2006, 11:22 PM

Here's the thing. If your art is complex then there will never be a push button solution for you. For people like Frank Zappa the constant modification of things was an important component of the art itself.

If you're living right, your ears are getting better every day. So you will need different gear to progress within that. Truly premium quality gear will never be a mainstream product. It will always be the exclusive domain of visionaries. Mackie can't sell a $600 power supply their channels would reject it completely, but for API it's no problem.

As to the "what's under the hood" syndrome, this is one of the most specious debates of our time IMO.

What do you care if a guy knows how to solder a pot as long as he knows how to dial in a hit? We're making music, not hardware. If a producer gets impressive results then I couldn't care less what they know or don't know. This is art, not trade school.

Time is finite, you can only pack x amount of knowledge into your brain within x amount of time. Id rather hire a producer who has spent 2,000hours mixing and knows nothing about science than a guy who can build a console out a coconut and some chewing gum but can't "get down". In the past it was much more important to be able to service hardware and understand those things, but in this day and age you are far better off hiring a specialist to take care of your hardware and focusing on the art of music production which, at this point, has *very little if anything* to do with electrical engineering.

People who render this argument are behind the times to me. This is 2006, there's absolutely no requirement to understand how hardware works in order to master the software and, all things being equal, it's the guys who know the software best who rule the world right now. You can buy/service ProTools at any of a zillion locations but try finding a guy to hire who has *really* mastered the operation ProTools in a truly musical context - very rare. The hardware is nothing at this point.

MikeRivers

06-17-2006, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary Id rather hire a producer who has spent 2,000hours mixing and knows nothing about science than a guy who can build a console out a coconut and some chewing gum but can't "get down".

In the past it was much more important to be able to service hardware and understand those things, but in this day and age you are far better off hiring a specialist to take care of your hardware and focusing on the art of music production which, at this point, has *very little if anything* to do with electrical engineering.[/B]Fair enough, but then who are you going to get to engineer it? You gotta hire two people. Or do you plan to do the engineering along with playing the music? That's kind of a waste when you've hired an experienced producer who presumably knows how to get a good performance and a good song out of you, but doesn't know how to turn the knobs or patch in a different mic preamp or re-authorize a plug-in that doesn't work.People who render this argument are behind the times to me. This is 2006, there's absolutely no requirement to understand how hardware works in order to master the softwareThis is true, but sometimes you need to do more than master the software. Large studios have always had a maintenance engineer or even staff that didn't make music happen, they made sure that when the music was happening, it could be recorded. And while you may know how to click and drag, having some idea of what reverberation or compression is will help you to "turn the knobs" to get what you're looking for. I'll concede that there's an art form which is based on just trying things willy-nilly and saving what you think sounds neat, but that's a different set of skills and visions. and, all things being equal, it's the guys who know the software best who rule the world right now.
What does "know the software" mean to you? There's little difference between adjusting a reverb in software than in hardware other than you might be able to get more different sounds out of a single piece of software than you can from a single piece of hardware (but don't tell Lexicon that ;) ) but it will take you longer because you have to go through many more steps and make many more decisions. And how many more records are sold if you get the reverb "just right?"
You can buy/service ProTools at any of a zillion locations but try finding a guy to hire who has *really* mastered the operation ProTools in a truly musical context - very rare.Right. And you can buy mixers and compressors and mics and effects units by the hundreds, but without a knowledge of what they do, what the controls do, and how to connect them together, they're as useless as someone who has a ProTools system and doesn't know what a mixer or compressor or reverb does.

Music Calgary

06-17-2006, 11:39 PM

Well it's pretty simple to connect a compressor. I'm not going to debate you point by point, my opinion is that electrical engineers have never been less relevant to commercial audio production than today. You can get gear serviced or modified quickly and cheaply with a quick call.

My challenge to you - name ten top selling albums created this year by electrical engineers. It's just not where it's at anymore. The guy who's going to give you the best finished sound is the guy who is most connected to the music, not the gear.

MikeRivers

06-18-2006, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
Well it's pretty simple to connect a compressor. You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand the difference between standard (and non-standard) operating levels and different types of connectors. You can tell them how to do it, or tell them that they bought the wrong cable, or the wrong compressor, but they don't learn how to do it right the next time. Yea, it's simple to plug in the patch cords once it's set up properly so that it will work. You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that you don't connect the two jacks that say INPUT together. This may not require knowledge of field theory, but it's system engineering, and if the user doesn't understand it, he'll fumble. my opinion is that electrical engineers have never been less relevant to commercial audio production than today.To be accurate about it, having a real electrical or electronic engineer living in the studio and applying his engineering skills day to day was never the norm. Sure, you had guys like Bill Putnam and Malcolm Toft who understood enough about electronics to build gear to use in their studios, but except for the earliest studios, this was never the way things were done. The engineers that worked in the studio repaired or modified things that we now replace instead because it's more efficient if you have more money than time or knowledge.

While you may not need an engineer to align a tape deck before a session (and really, you never did unless something was broken - you could teach anyone to do it) today you need different but equivalent skills. You need to know how to load a plug-in, update a driver, replace meomory, re-load the OS, or re-authorize a program when something you can't figure out happened. While it might not be Ohm's Law, it's still a technical skill that not everyone has.
You can get gear serviced or modified quickly and cheaply with a quick call.True, if you have the money, but the greatest number of people who have recording gear don't have the money, don't want to spend the money, or don't have a clue as to who to call. I've seen people post on forums or news groups with what's a fairly complex system problem (they just bought a bunch of gear and they haven't a clue as to how to hook things up) and they clam up when I offer tol help them out if they pay for my travel and a day of my time for an on-site visit. And six months later, they're still asking questions. It's a different world when you have ot get work done. My challenge to you - name ten top selling albums created this year by electrical engineers.That's an unrealistic challange. First of all, I can't name ten top selling albums created this year. I probably couldn't name ten top selling albums in any year. Second, the issue has never been that they were [/i]created by electrical engineers[/i]. My point is that having some technical knowledge (which includes basic electronics) helps anyone in this business to better understand what they're doing. Is that a bad thing? The guy who's going to give you the best finished sound is the guy who is most connected to the music, not the gear. This has always been the case, assuming that the gear isn't so bad that it gets in his way. But how does he get the gear and get it up and working in the first place?

I'd challange you to name ten top selling records that were recorded with nothing but an out-of-the-box audio workstation (like a Roland or Akai), a microhone, and a set of monitors - but with today's music, I can believe that this is possible and if you follow these things closely, it's no challange.

And if there were no electronics engineers, where would your mic preamps or computers, or audio interfaces or monitor amplifiers come from? And if there were no system engineers, how would you know what to do with an XLR plug in one hand and a 1/4" TS phone jack in the other? That's engineering. Sure, you can ask on a newsgroup and get an answer, but then what will you do the next time? Ask again, of course.

Music Calgary

06-19-2006, 01:19 AM

That's an unrealistic challange. First of all, I can't name ten top selling albums created this year. I probably couldn't name ten top selling albums in any year.
Hee. Touche Mike, I'll concede that one to you. :)

Second, the issue has never been that they were [/i]created by electrical engineers[/i]. My point is that having some technical knowledge (which includes basic electronics) helps anyone in this business to better understand what they're doing. Is that a bad thing?
Well it just depends on your goals. I guess what I'm saying is that if you go look at the movers and shakers they are overwhelmingly not engineers anymore. Snoop Dogg has mixed some fantastic sounding cuts, Wycelf Jean also, etc. and those guys have zero knowledge of the science of sound.

Don't get me wrong, Tom Scholz will always be near the top of my favorites list but vis-a-vis what makes the wheel go round these days it's the guys like Wyclef and Snoop who are getting the 6 figure gigs.

Brittanylips

06-19-2006, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
You're right, but not for the reason you propose. The great pianists of this era all have their own piano technicians. Keeping the piano at home in good shape is just a business expense. And when they tour, either they take their own piano (and tech) or they're sponsored by a piano company who delivers a piano to the venue and a technician to set it up for the pianist and the room. Heck, even rock'n'roll bands have a staff of guitar technicians and drum technicians. Most drummers don't know how to tune their drums (and that's always been the case) but I suspect that most guitarists can still tune their guitar and change a string when it breaks.
I think you’re way off here, my friend.

Everyone, not just top artists, can use a piano without knowing anything about it. For the past 100 years, the complex technology of a piano has been made transparent to anyone who buys one, professional or amateur. You do not need to roll with a staff to get a piano to work. All you have to do is push the buttons. It's just as true for you as it is for Elton John.

If you buy a piano, you do not have to buy strings, a pin block, pins, an action, a harp, a case, dampers, etc., and assemble the various components. You don’t need to know a thing about the regulation of action, the point at which the depression of a key engages a complex mechanism to trigger a hammer to hit one or more strings and then immediately fall back while a damper remains suspended until you lift your finger…

You just push the button and it works.

Pianos work out of the box for everyone, their mechanism of action equally transparent to all users. When Joe Shmoe buys a piano, it comes with all its components all hooked up, ready to go. If it needs to be tuned, there’s more than enough tuners to go around (not just for top pros), and modern pianos themselves hold their tuning for a long time (that wasn’t always the case and is no easy feat given the enormous pressure of the strings).

My point is that as technology matures, the complexity of its individual components disappears into a shroud of user friendliness. It’s a common goal in the evolution of any technology – cars, computers, pianos, you name it. As the technology matures, the underlying mechanism becomes increasingly transparent to the end user.

In audio, all of this hideous ganging together of components will similarly become transparent just as it has with pianos. And the proliferation of all-in-one interfaces is part of the transition even though they may seem like an affront to the "real engineers" of the past. Certainly the worst of the all-in-ones with their sloppy compromises are an affront. But then along comes something like the Apogee Ensemble and changes the game.

Come to think of it, the same thing was true with synthesizers. For a while, anyone who didn't physically patch together sine waves with LFOs in a mad scientist maze of cables was a wimp. OK, so then the DX7 comes along and well, OK, so it's not a toy. But if you were serious, you had to grapple with the underlying algorithms (just to keep things sufficiently tedious). Thank God that's no longer the case.

A friend of mine at Sikorsky helped eliminate the need for a second pilot from some of their more sophisticated helicopters. With increasing reliance on computer automation, complex controls could be simplified, enabling one person to fly aircraft that used to require at least two.

If you want to make music, you should be able to roll up your sleeves and get to work, without a support staff, closet full of cables, or co-pilot.

Mic preamps, for example, are ridiculous, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth.

The idea that there has to be a box between the device that converts sound waves into electrical signals, and the device that records those signals onto a format seems ridiculous to anyone who hasn’t been inculcated into this idiosyncrasy. We take them for granted – we cherish them – but ever try to explain why we spend so much money on these things to someone outside the field, and then watch their expression turn to one of disbelief and horror?

And the idea that mic preamps enhance the signal only adds to their ridiculousness. If the process of recording includes capturing sound from the real world and then processing it in ways that are pleasing, why does the processing need to occur at more than one stage?
Originally posted by MikeRivers
Today's big name engineer is pretty interesting, though. Some of them really know what's going on inside the digital boxes even though they never grew up on analog hardware and never got any training in electronics. But they're the ones puzzled by things like what to do when connectors don't mate, or the levels are too low or high. And the major artists who have home studios (like Whitney Houston's famous living room) all have their own staff engineers who are expected to keep everyting ready to record at any time.
Sure. But that will change. It already is changing. Andy Smith literally replicated Paul Simon's recording chain at the Hit Factory in Paul Simon's living room without a lot of fuss.

Like any maturing technologies, studios are becoming easier to operate, with focus shifting increasingly from engineering to music making. Although, as a young technology, there’s a long way to go.
Originally posted by MikeRivers

Maybe in 100 years the industry will standardize on a digital microphone interface, and the tweakers will be taking apart digital microphones, installing their own preamp, and A/D converter.
Stephen St. Croix wrote a wonderful column about this, how he grew up as an incorrigible tweaker, taking everything apart just to understand how it worked, constantly personalizing every bit of technology he could get his hands on. Until the digital revolution, that is. With everything burnt onto a tiny little chip, inveterate tweakers like himself were out of luck.

In 100 years, the tweakers will not be taking apart their digital microphones, they'll be using them.

-plb

MikeRivers

06-19-2006, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Music Calgary Snoop Dogg has mixed some fantastic sounding cuts, Wycelf Jean also, etc. and those guys have zero knowledge of the science of sound.[/QB]Maybe so, but I'll bet someone with some knowledge of electronics, studio engineering, and maybe even physics and acoustics got them set up. They couldn't work without that assistance.

Perhaps we're arguing the wroing point here. It's not necessary for everyone involved in a music production to be technically competent, but that needs to be there somewhere, at some point, and will probably be called on now and then in the process. So for someone working alone, it behooves him or her to start picking up that knowlege.

MikeRivers

06-19-2006, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
Everyone, not just top artists, can use a piano without knowing anything about it. For the past 100 years, the complex technology of a piano has been made transparent to anyone who buys one, professional or amateur. You do not need to roll with a staff to get a piano to work. All you have to do is push the buttons. It's just as true for you as it is for Elton John. This is true if you're willing to buy a new piano whenever it goes out of tune, or the felts get hard, or you want to play a differeint kind of song and need it to be voiced differently. Now I'll admit that most pianists don't do that kind of work themselves, but it's the same sort of thing as when you want a new A/D converter and you can't figure out how to sync its word clock. Musicians can learn that sort of thing, and can do something about it. Or they can call for help.When Joe Shmoe buys a piano, it comes with all its components all hooked up, ready to go.OK, let's fast forward 150 years. Say he wants to hook it up to his home stereo. What does he do then?My point is that as technology matures, the complexity of its individual components disappears into a shroud of user friendliness.I see nothing "user friendly" about taking home a bunch of boxes from the music store (or finding they on your front porch) and trying to build a whole recording system out of it. This is not mature technology. It's moving too fast to become mature. I ask for help with "computer" things all the time, and I find that hardly anyone who works with this stuff really knows how to solve MY problems. What do they do when they have similar problems? This is a generation of musicians who work on a desert island (one island - one musician) and don't interact with others, technical or musical, so they do everything themselves. Do they do it well? Sure, you know the saying about the blind pig and the acorn. But there are a lot of confused and struggling artists who have better things to do than futz with their recording gear. If they knew what was going on, if even only at the interface level, they could work smoother and smarter. In audio, all of this hideous ganging together of components will similarly become transparent just as it has with pianos.Perhaps, but that requires standards, and in a technology that moves as fast as what people are applying to recording, there's no time to set standards before we need new ones to accommodate the new hardware and new capabilities. Look at how many years it took the AES to tell us that Pin 2 was hot, and they're still working on a standard for digital audio interchange as data. And the proliferation of all-in-one interfaces is part of the transition even though they may seem like an affront to the "real engineers" of the past.You mean something like a channel strip with a Firewire output? That's OK for someone with one microphone, but what happens when the drummer comes in and says "I have six mics. Record me." Certainly the worst of the all-in-ones with their sloppy compromises are an affront. But then along comes something like the Apogee Ensemble and changes the game.Ah, a Mac user. I might have known ;) But then Ensemble is just an 8-channel Firewire interface with mic preamps with Apogee's long-standing "soft limit" and UV22 dither. What's so special about that? If you want to use EQ or compression when you track, you still have to plug in an outboard processor (and you have to choose it, and get the right cables, and agonize over whether the insert jacks are balanced or unbalanced and what the operating level is) and then you only get inserts on two channels. Simple as a piano? I don't think so. Come to think of it, the same thing was true with synthesizers. For a while, anyone who didn't physically patch together sine waves with LFOs in a mad scientist maze of cables was a wimp. OK, so then the DX7 comes along and well, OK, so it's not a toy. But if you were serious, you had to grapple with the underlying algorithms (just to keep things sufficiently tedious). Thank God that's no longer the case. Sez who? Sure, if you want to use presets there are a lot more synths and a lot more presets, and you can fiddle with knobs all you want to get different sounds But unless you have some idea of what you're doing you'll make a lot of weird noises before you get to where you want to be - unless of course your goal is to make weird noises.

As an aside, since we're in Anderton's forum, I was chatting with him around the Alesis booth at NAMM a couple of years back at the show where they introduced the (I think) Ion analog modeling synthesizer. He said that he had to teach them how to use an analog synthesizer - Dave Bryce had moved on to hawk Adam speakers by then and he was the last of the corporate knowledge. Now they have Jim Norman, so they may be safe for a while. ;)If you want to make music, you should be able to roll up your sleeves and get to work, without a support staff, closet full of cables, or co-pilot. I agree. And one can do this. But recording is still more complex, and will continue to be for some time. The other side of this coin is that musicians should be musicians, and when it's time to record, they should get a recording engineer involved. It may not require full time involvement, but it sure helps to get things started.Mic preamps, for example, are ridiculous, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth.They practically were, at least as identifiable boxes, but they've always been the interface between a microphone and some other circuit. Used to be that there was just a connector on the mixing console (or a jack on the front of your grandad's Webcor) where you plugged in the mic and started singing. It was the studio engineers, followed quickly by the musicians who didn't want to be left behind technicologically, who started using outboard mic preamps. Now everybody does it. Me, I'm quite happy plugging mics into my console, but then I bought my console when consoles cost more than $150. The idea that there has to be a box between the device that converts sound waves into electrical signals, and the device that records those signals onto a format seems ridiculous to anyone who hasn’t been inculcated into this idiosyncrasy. Mr. Edison didn't have to worry about no stinkin' mic preamps. Sound waves went right into the horn and wiggled a little needle that made grooves in a rotating wax cylinder. He didn't need power amplifiers or crossover networks or rear ported encosures either. We should have quit while we were ahead. – we cherish them – but ever try to explain why we spend so much money on these things to someone outside the field, and then watch their expression turn to one of disbelief and horror?Did you ever tell anyone how much your Steinway grand cost? Or your 1946 herringbone D-28? Or your Viking stove? People take pride in using quality tools in their craft.And the idea that mic preamps enhance the signal only adds to their ridiculousness.Not everyone puts it quite that way. If the process of recording includes capturing sound from the real world and then processing it in ways that are pleasing, why does the processing need to occur at more than one stage?Because we haven't yet figured out how to get everything we need at the final stage? Or maybe because working with the sound that comes out of a particular preamp or equalizer or compressor becomes part of the creative process? It's how we work. It's how we've worked for a long time, and it's still the way many people work even though their tools have changed.

But some people (and this tends to be genre-specific) capture or syntesize a bunch of sounds and manipulate them (almost always with a computer) in one process to create a musical work. Nobody ever played the song from start to finish, sounds were pasted together, duplicated, reversed, equalizer, pitch-transfomred, whatever, all in one shot. Is this the way all music should be produced? If so, I'm glad I'll be dead, or at least deaf, in not too many more years. It already is changing. Andy Smith literally replicated Paul Simon's recording chain at the Hit Factory in Paul Simon's living room without a lot of fuss.Who is this Andy Smith? The guy who set up Paul Simon's home studio, I guess. I missed that article. I'm sure that Paul Simon can afford to duplicate the control room gear, but I suspect you're hinting that he didn't have a Neve console like when he recorded Graceland, but rather a ProTools system like what his last few albums were recorded on. That's no big deal. And I"m sure that with an afternoon's worth of instruction, he learned how to arm a track and record. What then? I'd be surprised if he turned over a finished master to his record company with no outside help. He, like a couple million other musicians, may have tracks a lot of stuff at home, but I'll bet he brought his disk into a studio and got a skilled mixing engineer to work with him when it came time to bring it all together.

I'm getting the sense that you're taking a very limited view of "engineering" just for the sake of argument. The more technology advances, the less any single person can understand it all, and the more there is to understand. You have to keep abreast of the technology or you'll get mired when trying to create art with it. Or you need to know when and where to ask for help. There will always be work for engineers, even if they can't play the piano. And an engineer who can play the piano can call himself a producer and get more work.

Music Calgary

06-22-2006, 07:06 PM

I'd be surprised if he turned over a finished master to his record company with no outside help. He, like a couple million other musicians, may have tracks a lot of stuff at home, but I'll bet he brought his disk into a studio and got a skilled mixing engineer to work with him when it came time to bring it all together.

I agree with this of course. 100%. My only point was that it doesn't matter to Paul Simon if the guy can solder a pot as long as he can dial the mix.

Brittanylips

06-23-2006, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
This is true if you're willing to buy a new piano whenever it goes out of tune...
No, silly, you don’t need to buy a new piano every time it goes out of tune, you hire a piano tuner. See, the whole experience of owning and operating a piano (a complex machine that has evolved into something easy to use over hundreds of years) is now painless for the user, unlike owning and operating a…. yeeesh, I give up, and you know what I mean anyway!

Briefly, however, let me clear up a few things, beginning with a personal disclosure. I belong to a race of time-traveling mollusks that has an interest in recording technology and Asian-fusion cuisine in the late 20th, early 21st centuries. And this is what I can tell you from my time travels:

In the future, recording studios are easier to operate than they are today. Given that the Earth took four and a half billion years to create recording studios in the first place, the fact that it took a hundred years to make them user-friendly is not all that unreasonable.

Also, a new condiment derived from milk byproducts and cumquats will become more popular than ketchup.
Originally posted by MikeRivers
But then Ensemble ...What's so special about that?
On retrospect (this is where the time travel comes in really handy), it’s clear that one phase of studio simplification involved the convergence of functions into single devices that streamlined the workflow. While early examples often involved unsatisfactory compromises (wobbly knobs, fussy drivers, inadequate gain, and that sort of thing), when companies like Apogee got in the game, “real engineers” began to adopt them and there was no turning back. Discrete components, essential during early analog recording became less common as software integrated more tasks. Eventually even the metaphors of analog recording that dominated their early software counterparts began to dissapear.
Originally posted by MikeRivers
Ah, a Mac user. I might have known
Guilty as charged. Quick tip from the future: there are worse stocks you could buy.
Originally posted by MikeRivers ...Who is this Andy Smith? The guy who set up Paul Simon's home studio, I guess. ... I suspect you're hinting that he didn't have a Neve console like when he recorded Graceland, but rather a ProTools system like what his last few albums were recorded on....
Andy Smith records Paul Simon and you’d be surprised at how much he didn’t use that big beautiful Neve. The point is that as the chain is simplifying, living room recording even among top artists is happening in actual – rather than Whitney Houston style - living rooms.
Originally posted by MikeRivers
The more technology advances, the less any single person can understand it all, and the more there is to understand. You have to keep abreast of the technology or you'll get mired when trying to create art with it.
As I see it, the opposite is true. One of the ironies of advancements in computer technology is a kind of computer illiteracy among new users as GUIs progressively cloister them from underlying code. (That's a good thing).

The goal of any computer company is to make computers as easy to use as TVs. Compare that to the past when you had to know about programming just to use a word processor. Now they're so complex under the hood, they're easy above it. Writers can now spend all their time writing rather than fussing with their tools. How nice it will be when the same thing is true about recording.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips

MikeRivers

06-24-2006, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Brittanylips
The goal of any computer company is to make computers as easy to use as TVs. Compare that to the past when you had to know about programming just to use a word processor. Well, a TV set has always been simple to operate - you turned it on and selected the channel. Maybe you had to rotate the antenna (I still do) for best reception, but for most people, that's been replaced by cable or a satellite dish. But it used to be simple to choose among the four channels that we could get locally. Now you have to choose betweeen analog and digital cable (and we'll have to abandon our analog over-the-air TV sets pretty soon), several cable options, play-on-demand, and which one of those 462 channels do I want to watch? I'd need a data base. Is that making TV simpler?

And about word processors? I never used to have to write a program to use a word processor, but I grew up with Wordstar, where if you learned a few "dot commands" to embed in your document, you knew what would happen when it printed. I've been futzing with Word for 15 years now and I still can't make paragraph numbering work the way I want it to work. I don't have to remember any commands, but I have to figure out which option I want, and some of the things I want aren't available and I can't even make it do what I want. Is that simpler?

No, computers don't make our work simpler or easier, they just change the way we work.

Music Calgary

06-30-2006, 07:44 PM

No, computers don't make our work simpler or easier, they just change the way we work.
Sure they do. They absolutely do. Much, much, much easier. For example in the printing industry computers have made tons of things *infinitely* simpler and easier. They revolutionized the entire process. What used to take ten men eight hours now takes 3 men 4 hours.

I'm not going to explain it all to you Mike but suffice to say that you are speaking only from your limited perspective. In the greater picture you're completely wrong. I can name 100s of major industries which reflect the exact same revolution the print industry underwent.

Mike, you are a brilliant guy but you are too black/white. Sometimes things are grey.

MikeRivers

07-01-2006, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Music Calgary
For example in the printing industry computers have made tons of things *infinitely* simpler and easier. They revolutionized the entire process. What used to take ten men eight hours now takes 3 men 4 hours.And the result is that there are many more jobs done today that wouldn't have been done at all if they would have taken ten men eight hours to do.

Back in 1965, I worked in an office where we had a real secretary. She did filing, she did typing, she knew where everyone was all the time, and knew how to spell all the words we used and correct grammatical errors. I'd write something as a draft, give it to her, she'd type it, give it back to me, I'd check it, and it would be done. Now I have a computer and a word processor, and I revise, and revise, and reformat, and e-mail it to half a dozen people to review, and then revise again. (and I got paid about double the secretary's salary) So, yeah, i can make changes faster with a word processor than if I had to wait for the secretary to re-type it. but now it's ME that has to do all the work. I keep just as busy, it's just that I waste time differently. And think of how much paper we waste printing what we think is finished, but then someone wants something changed.

That's my point which you can't seem to accept. Mike, you are a brilliant guy but you are too black/white. Sometimes things are grey. That's why we need more people like me - to wade through the gray muck. I completely agree that computers and modern technology allow us to do things that we couldn't do 40 years ago, or that it simply wasn't practical to do. But just because we CAN do them now doesn't mean that our world is better for it. Sometimes it is, but often it's just different (not necessarily worse or better).

Music Calgary

07-16-2006, 02:28 PM

The only problem with assuming your own experiences apply verbatim to everyone else in the world is that they just don't. When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. :)

MikeRivers

07-18-2006, 02:54 PM

Boccaccio7070

07-29-2006, 03:08 PM

Reading this review is like wandering into an old time burlesque house, , where it takes the swirling feathered Fan Dancer 3 hours before you get to see see nipple, all the while some weird organ music snakes through your "how did I get here?" booze addled brain. WDM? ASIO? Buy a Mac and set yourself free.... javascript:smilie(':thu:')

I just want to know :

1) how does the darn thing sound when it plays back your DAW stereo mix (in my case, DP5 on a Mac G5-dual 2.5-4gig of RAM) I currently use a MOTU 1224 with a 424 pci card) Are the converters spacious, with releatively jitter steady operation for a unit in this price range? How is the imaging/depth of field?

2-Can i record vocals thru my Focusrite voice master pro with digital spdif out with some degree of low latency with the 2 mix from my DP5 DAW streaming out?

btw, i just ordered the Onyx 400 so these questions are more about reassurance than choice making. I figured since i dont have $50,000 worth of Massenburg sound treatment, i would probably not notice the difference between these Onyx converters and the ones on an Apogee rosetta 200. Or am I wrong here and will I end up hating myself even more

A respected Mackie "man behind the curtain" response here would be very comforting. Don't forget to ditch your feathered fans, though....
:love: :p

rickenbacker198

08-03-2006, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070
Reading this review is like wandering into an old time burlesque house, , where it takes the swirling feathered Fan Dancer 3 hours before you get to see see nipple, all the while some weird organ music snakes through your "how did I get here?" booze addled brain. WDM? ASIO? Buy a Mac and set yourself free.... javascript:smilie(':thu:')

I just want to know :

1) how does the darn thing sound when it plays back your DAW stereo mix (in my case, DP5 on a Mac G5-dual 2.5-4gig of RAM) I currently use a MOTU 1224 with a 424 pci card) Are the converters spacious, with releatively jitter steady operation for a unit in this price range? How is the imaging/depth of field?

2-Can i record vocals thru my Focusrite voice master pro with digital spdif out with some degree of low latency with the 2 mix from my DP5 DAW streaming out?

btw, i just ordered the Onyx 400 so these questions are more about reassurance than choice making. I figured since i dont have $50,000 worth of Massenburg sound treatment, i would probably not notice the difference between these Onyx converters and the ones on an Apogee rosetta 200. Or am I wrong here and will I end up hating myself even more

A respected Mackie "man behind the curtain" response here would be very comforting. Don't forget to ditch your feathered fans, though....
:love: :p

Youll be happy..
I like it good and clean,, clear.... not "brittle"

NB

Music Calgary

08-13-2006, 08:07 PM

For anyone who wants to try it, Mackie just released a Beta version of a new 400F driver. It isn't perfect, and it doesn't address MC's major beef, but some people have found some good things there.

Don't do it folks. Read the Mackie forums. Everyone who is using the beta driver on PC is having problems. 100% of them. They are all being forced to contact tech support at Mackie and wait for days to be given the firmware rollback utility to try and get their units working again... From what I've read the beta driver is nowhere near ready, even completely debilitating the units of some users, i.e.:

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000942

I'm not sure where Mike figures anyone has been saying good things about the beta driver but certainly all the posts I've read from PC users have not been saying anything good. From what I've read 100% of them are now going through the inconvenient process rolling back. Better to stick with the current drivers, they're no good but at least the unit functions. :)

My personal opinion is that Mackie only released this beta as P.R. to counteract the spate of negative publicity the 400F has been getting in recent weeks. It's obviously nowhere near ready for any type of public release. No professional programmer would release that code without being forced by some marketing beancounter. A 100% user rollback is the most shameful outcome a professional programmer could possibly experience.

Music Calgary

08-17-2006, 01:24 AM

Update: Thankfully an intrepid user has posted the rollback files (PC) for folks who installed the beta and are experiencing problems with functionality, so you no longer have to email Mackie support and wait a week for them to send you a copy. It's here:

http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000966

Music Calgary

08-24-2006, 09:37 PM

Still no progress on the 400F driver... 2 years on the market and still no working driver!

http://namm.harmony-central.com/SNAMM06/discussion/display.html?cid=7645&thread=5763&start_id=5763

The public criticism of the 400F driver is now rampant, sales are stale (according to 2 separate Mackie dealers here) - so Mackie releases this non-working "beta driver" to create the illusion that they are doing something in an effort to abate the downward momentum - further inconveniencing all 400F users as they get forced to install, test, and rollback these faulty drivers.

How long is this to sit in beta? Judging solely by Mackie's software support track record with absolutely no user bias, it maybe a looooooong time. Mackie is alarmingly comfortable ignoring their software development obligations, and that's a corporate culture which is not easily changed once it's established. Once you're actively ignoring your users, there is very little impetus to stop doing it.

Except when sales sag but Mackienauts like Mike Rivers evangelize the non-working beta ad nauseum with the "better than nothing folks" approach, and the marketeers at Mackie get exactly what they want (again) - but in the end *nothing has been done*. Nothing has changed. 2 years on the market and the 400F still does not have a working driver. Welcome to Mackie. Caveat Emptor.

Don't let Mackie obfuscate this issue with their slick marketing materials if you are considering the 400F. There is only one point to focus on -> Mackie still provides no properly working drivers for the 400F after 2 years on the market. :freak:

macle

08-24-2006, 10:50 PM

I'm trying out a 400f, and so far it's working well, sounds good, no problems yet.

Boccaccio7070

08-24-2006, 11:42 PM

HI

MACKIE SENT ME A REPLACEMENT BECAUSE OF TRANSMISSION WHINE INTO MY GENELECS.....and didnt wait to get the 1st one back. Nice gesture, i thinketh.......but while inintially having the first unit up, it occurred to me that the latency issue was worse than my pci card based motu 1224....? I havent hooked up the 2nd unit as in middle of network session, but latency issue still bothers me from 1st unit. Am i stepping backwards by going Firewire?

current setup:
running DP5.1 ON OSX 10.4.7 Mac G5-dual 2.5
w/4 gb RAM/500gb RAID array drive 16mb/sec thruput-

PLUGINS; MOTU MX4 SYNTH/MACH 5 - SPECKTRASONICS STYLUS RMX/TRILOGY & ATMOSPHERE-NI AKOUSTIC PIANO/KONTAKT 2 & ABSYNTH 3/ IK MIROSLAV PHIL & CSR REVERB-GARRITAN GPO-ALTIVERB5-AUTOTUNE4-LOUNGE LIZARD 3-ULTRAFOCUS-CAMEL5000/PHATT & SPACE-MINIMONSTA-AMBIENT kEYS-REFX VANGUARD SYNTH-UAD1 ULTRA PAK-WAVES DIAMOND-WIZOO W2 REVERB-SFX MACHINE PRO-

i figure when i move to an intel mac in a year it wont be an issue, but any way to track vocals, reduce latency, and add monitor reverb? i question the inserts being in line with the signal path. I have UAD1 card stocked /Waves Diamond and a focusrite mic pre-so how do i get a monitor reverb to the cans that doesnt go to "tape"

Trying to get rid of my mixer as all stuff is now inside....any work arounds or suggestions.

THANKS

mark

d. gauss

08-25-2006, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070
MACKIE SENT ME A REPLACEMENT BECAUSE OF TRANSMISSION WHINE INTO MY GENELECS.....and didnt wait to get the 1st one back.

wow, they must have changed their tune on that (or you got lucky). mackie's response to my request for a replacement 400f was, "send it to us and we'll fix your unit, then send it back when it is done." this was after i even offered to pay for overnight shipping if they would send me a working replacement with NO whine issues.

i'm using an echo audiofire 8 now with no problems. (and echo's ones who mackie contracted to help with the 400f). go figure...

-d. gauss

Music Calgary

08-25-2006, 10:53 PM

wow, they must have changed their tune on that (or you got lucky). mackie's response to my request for a replacement 400f was, "send it to us and we'll fix your unit, then send it back when it is done." this was after i even offered to pay for overnight shipping if they would send me a working replacement with NO whine issues.

That is *exactly* what Mackie does for individual end users. I don't believe for one second that they shipped a 400F to an individual end user without first receiving either the replacement unit or equivalent cash/deposit. That's absolute poppycock. Phone Mackie and ask them to send you a unit on spec (and pay the shipping) you'll see. They'll laugh you off the phone. :) No truth at all to that claim.

Boccaccio7070

08-26-2006, 04:45 AM

Man, why would you put energy into writing a put down accusation and ignore the post's questions? I'll send you a photo of the 2 units and a copy of mackie's printed ups prepaid return sticker if you need it to make it thru next week.
at this point in my career , i dont have to lie to impress utter strangers. just reporting the facts and asking honest questions. maybe because i have some notable credits, i got the VIP jr treatment, ....not really understand the reason for your post? I wasnt boasting, i just thought it was a cool gesture by mackie. plenty of companies treat me like a part time hobbyist living at home with mom... others. like mackie-Universal Audio-Korg take into account that I know my stuff based on my explaination, details of my hardcore designed grounded power grid and decades of big name studio experience in these matters... They guy at mackie might have gone to IMDB to check me out. I dont know, It's not all that unusual for me at this point.
big deal!
Garritan software called about an endorsement deal last month.
who cares?

All i know is that I've supported myself soley thru Records, TV, film, and Advertizing composing since the age of 26....i'm a week shy of 50....maybe "instant replacement unit" is the "big Reward".

God, i hope not....
peace

mark
PS: any thought on my post's important questions?

MikeRivers

08-26-2006, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070
it occurred to me that the latency issue was worse than my pci card based motu 1224....? I havent hooked up the 2nd unit as in middle of network session, but latency issue still bothers me from 1st unit. Am i stepping backwards by going Firewire?Nothing is as fast at getting data in and out of the computer as a PCI bus, but many people have had satisfactory results using Firewire. Some are never satisfied, often for good reason. Since you mentioned Garritan, I assume the latency that's most bothersome to you is the time betwen when you press a key and when you hear a sound. Think about playing a pipe organ. ;)

You have to spend some time tweaking your system, adjusting buffer size so that there's enough data buffered so that you don't lose it, but little enough so that it doesn't take too long (buffer latency) to get from the input to the output of the buffer. You just have to mess with it for a while until you either get something you can live with or you give up and go back to what works for you.

Whatever the buffer size is now, cut it in half and see what happens.

Oh, and Calgary just likes to complain because his interface won't let him do what he wants and he's too pigheaded to ditch it and get something else (and probalby complain on another forum). He also likes to complain about people who are in any way supportive of Mackie. Watch for his reponse to this post. ;)

Music Calgary

08-26-2006, 11:49 AM

maybe because i have some notable credits

Ok I'll buy that because that's *exactly* the type of weasels Mackie are - if you have some profile they take care of you - while normal people get the boot.

Mark, for a 50 year old guy with so much industry juice your typing is atrocious, as such I assumed you were not a bigwig. So please accept my apology, I do indeed buy your story now that I understand the reason, i.e. they helped you while leaving all normal users behind because they felt like you have the potential to affect their marketing image in some way.

But the reality is that if you phone them right now (as a normal person with no industry juice) they'll force you to send your unit first and pay all the shipping. No negotiation on that for normal folks.

Anyhow here's the key point to walk away with here people -> Mark bought a unit and it did not work. He was then forced to exchange it. *Mackie is still shipping and selling the broken units!* There's ample anecdotal evidence of that throughout a variety of popular audio forums.

It's fraud. Pure and simple. I spoke with a lawyer about this last night and she confirmed that for me. But she also stated that it would be impossible to litigate with the exception of a US class action, etc... So it's fraudward ho! Mackie's marketeers win again while we paying customers lose - again! Big time.

macle

08-26-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by MikeRivers
[B]

Oh, and Calgary just likes to complain because his interface won't let him do what he wants and he's too pigheaded to ditch it and get something else

What won't it do?

How is Mackie in regard to support and updates?

I noticed there was a rep here on this thread in the beginning, which seemed promising as far as Mackie being on top of it.

Are they on top of it?

The 400f seems like an overall good unit for me, but the last thing I want is a disaster/nightmare. Been there done that.

Music Calgary

08-26-2006, 08:32 PM

Some users refer to it as "a total disaster":
http://forums.mackie.com/scripts/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000942

But I find that a tad on the optimistic side having gone through this with Mackie. Several of us 400F buyers are now on our 3rd and 4th exchange units. That's something I've never heard of for any product from any manufacturer in history. Have you? Mackie is providing faulty products on an unprecedented level.

The key thing to beware of is that Mackie continues to ship and sell the faulty units here many, many months after they became aware of the problem. According to my Mackie dealer what happens is that Mackie noticed a certain percentage of bad units stays out there, i.e. people who buy them are not using them very much and never notice things like the fact that the 400F hijacks the driver so no two audio apps can run at the same time, etc. Which is, of course, something you can easily do with any $20 soundblaster. So...

I spent a few thousand dollars on Mackie gear this year and have learned my lesson at this point. *Never* again.

Do yourself a HUGE favor and get the RME fireface. You won't regret it. :)

macle

08-26-2006, 09:05 PM

Music Calgary, I appreciate your feedback, and I'm well aware of the many disasters, and I've seen your various posts.

I'm looking to hear the flipside, though, from others, especially in regard to Mackie's support.

I already got the 400f (but I can still return it if it proves to be a disaster).

So far, the only problem I had was in using it with Gigastudio, I found I had to disable the Echo PCI card I also have (the problem you're referring to I guess).

But other than that, it seems to be a pretty nice unit with good sound and 4 really good preamps.

So it doesn't seem like a disaster to me yet.

Music Calgary

08-26-2006, 11:00 PM

Sounds to me like you haven't put it though the paces, there are a few different issues as you can see from Mackie's forum - but glad to hear you're happy...

The last 400F which died on me fried one of the firewire ports on my motherboard in the process. This was during routine usage as recommended by Mackie.

I'm looking to hear the flipside, though, from others, especially in regard to Mackie's support.

Flipside? You've read Mackie's forums. You've seen what existing owners are saying. There is no flipside... Mackie has let down 400F users in a big way. They are selling broken units everyday and only people like Mark who have some positioning in the industry are being taken care of when they purchase these faulty units. The rest of us are not being given any working software updates, no proposed release dates for such, and a few folks are now on their 4th exchange units because they keep getting sent faulty units. It's all documented in the Mackie forum as well as others. That's the flipside.

It's getting to the point that if I get a little extra time I may register a domain and set up a web site for unhappy 400F users worldwide to vent about Mackie. The only language Mackie understands is sales numbers so maybe if we start affecting that in some infinitesimal manner they may finally acquiesce and do some work.

CactusArm

09-09-2006, 05:19 PM

I decided to take a chance on the 400f as my Firepod had a big problem and fried my motherboard; it's in for repairs! I got the 400f at guitar center with the understanding I'd be refunded immediately if I got one of the bad ones. Well, I got it home and started it up and it sounded great! really nice pres. They sounded a step above the Firepod pres to me... more depth. I don't hear them as being brittle or harsh in anyway. They had a nice clean and classic sound that is very livable. I hold my breath and turn on the 48v and NOOOOOOOOOO! I hear the dreaded whine! I can't believe the defective ones are still floating around.

I didn't have the chance to really use it too much to see how it worked on my powerbook G4. I have used an Echo Layla 24 for a long time and there are certain glitches with that unit on the powerbook that have troubled me for years; especially the MIDI that never works at all. I wanted to see if Echo got their act together to write the Mackie drivers... well, next time!

It did sound really really wonderful. Does anyone else think it might sound a step above the Firepod I've been using? There was a certian solidity to the sound of the Mackie that was very very nice. As it was noted throughout this thread how the 400f filled such a nice gap, and being that it has had some troubles, is there anything else that would take it's place in the sub $1,000 catagory of an interface with nice convertors and pres?

Will Mackie get it together on the 400f or will it just die away? They SHOULD have done a recall! It's amazing that the stores are still stocked with and selling the defecitve ones!

Anderton

09-09-2006, 05:33 PM

BEFORE YOU SEND IT BACK read the important notice about how I got rid of FireWire whine with the Onyx Satellite. I assume you're using a Mac, right? In the case of the Satellite, it was NOT a Mackie problem, but a Mac problem -- try turning off Processor Nap and see what happens. It eliminated the whine completely for me.

Boccaccio7070

09-09-2006, 07:09 PM

Calgary-
Now you are slamming my typing? what does being a succesful musician have to do with typing? I could use the true event that I had brain surgery in june and the head/eye/hand cordination is still a bit bobbly, but fact is, if i wanted to be a typist, i would have put in the time and excelled at it. who cares?
i'm just a hard working guy who happens to do music for a living. My brain tumor is terminal, but that's the cards i was dealt...i will write music til the end. No I/O box would get in my way either...if you dont like the 400F , sell it and get something you can live with. next.

Calgary, you seem to spend a lot of energy finding faults in Mackie, other on the forum, life in general. Maybe an attitude change would do you more good than any pair of golden converters.... just a thought. Gotta go, time to write a killer theme for a "who cares" fishing show on OLN...top of the world. Ma !!

Note: If you find any typo's please bring them to the attention of my 10th grade typing teacher, the very terse Mrs.Connie Vootu, at 315 687 9200.
but please, no profanity.

Anderton

09-09-2006, 11:00 PM

<<The last 400F which died on me fried one of the firewire ports on my motherboard in the process. This was during routine usage as recommended by Mackie. >>

FYI, one of the great hypes about FireWire is that you can hot plug. That's true most, but not all, of the time. M-Audio was the first company to bring this to widespread attention and for their efforts, got flamed for making "bad interfaces." The problem is not with the peripheral; for a variety of reasons hot-plugging is not compensated for at the computer itself, which can fry the motherboard.

More and more companies are including in their manuals that power should be off when connecting FireWire devices to a computer, and that's sound advice. In fact, I wrote a short article about this that first appeared in the free, biweelky HC Confidential newsletter (http://www.harmony-central.com/Newsletter/) and is now in the HC Library. Click here (http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/firewire/) to read it.

Music Calgary

09-10-2006, 10:50 PM

They SHOULD have done a recall! It's amazing that the stores are still stocked with and selling the defecitve ones!
Agreed.

Calgary- Now you are slamming my typing? what does being a succesful musician have to do with typing?
Absolutely nothing, as you have amply proven.

Calgary, you seem to spend a lot of energy finding faults in Mackie, other on the forum, life in general.
Life in general? Hmmm. Not sure how you reached such an incredibly inaccurate conclusion, but no one has ever heard me complain about life, least of all you. I recommend the decaf Mark. Mackie has let us down, big time. 2 yeas and still no working drivers... We don't all have the resources you do, and the facts are the facts.

2 years, still no working drivers, and no announcement of any. Just a broken, meaningless beta... :rolleyes:

Anderton

09-11-2006, 12:53 AM

Just out of curiosity...if you're using a Mac, have you turned off Processor Nap?

Boccaccio7070

09-11-2006, 01:11 AM

Calgary-

I'm done with this thread, learned what i could from the likes of C.A. and other helpful folks.

As a point of departure, i'll say that I'm just quite puzzled as to why you spend so much energy on this site bashing mackie. Just sell it, take your loss, learn the hard lesson, buy another brand, and get on with the music already...or is this boiling down to an avoidance issue? As long as Mackie is your all consuming obstacle, you have an excuse, no?

i cant believe you hung on to something you hate for 2 years? thats just pathological, man. The damn thing doesn't even have a nice rack.

I know alot of guys in LA/NYC/Miami who spent more time complaining about what their gear wouldnt let them do, than the option of just accepting it, working around and thru it, or changing it, and getting on with what's really important; making music.

I think they all work at Guitar Centers now...

Music Calgary

09-15-2006, 05:10 AM

Mark, I owe you no explanation of anything. Mackie sold me some gear which doesn't work, I hardly feel that's my bad. Cheers.

I know alot of guys in LA/NYC/Miami
I'm sure you do. :)

I don't know a thing about Guitar Center so I'm not qualified to opine, but to be honest you're not exactly the role model I'm looking for, so...

the stranger

09-15-2006, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Brittanylips

Mic preamps, for example, are ridiculous, and should be eliminated from the face of the earth.

The idea that there has to be a box between the device that converts sound waves into electrical signals, and the device that records those signals onto a format seems ridiculous to anyone who hasn’t been inculcated into this idiosyncrasy. We take them for granted – we cherish them – but ever try to explain why we spend so much money on these things to someone outside the field, and then watch their expression turn to one of disbelief and horror?

-plb

:eek:

For one, people outside the field aren't going to understand the need for quality pre-amplification. I'm sure they could grasp that different pre-amps impart different tonal qualities to a signal. I would hope that you also grasp the same concept, and I'm sure you do.

As for multiple stages? Why not? More choice is good. And another obvious point is that it does make a difference where in the chain you apply processing to a signal.

I can run a compressor on a signal before recording or after recording that signal. And the results won't be the same.

And being somebody with plenty of experience (which we know you have), you know that quality pre-amplification isn't exactly cheap. The trend towards outboard pre-amps is a response to the fact that a lot of gear follows a certain price point in design. And cost is always a factor. Most products have seen vast improvements in the quality of pre-amps
provided, but there is still a world of flavors to be had by being able to adjust this piece of the recording chain (which is one of the most important).

But, this is a good thing, IMO. It just adds more choices.

Most interfaces/etc have decent enough pre-amps to get the job done. But, why denounce the ability to have more colors to choose from?

Why does an artist use a variety of mediums and materials when he could just use the same tools over and over?

Why on earth would you expect somebody "outside of the field" to understand signal flow, anyway? :confused:

Originally posted by Brittanylips

And the idea that mic preamps enhance the signal only adds to their ridiculousness.
-plb

Idea??? Mic pre-amps do enhance the signal. Even the most transparent pre-amp is going to color the signal in it's own way.

Originally posted by Brittanylips

If the process of recording includes capturing sound from the real world and then processing it in ways that are pleasing, why does the processing need to occur at more than one stage?
-plb

Because audio production involves signal paths that go through many stages. ???

One track completely ITB goes through multiple stages before it leaves the box.
One track going through one channel on a console is going through multiple stages.

Hardware or software, the reality is that audio goes through many stages. And why not have a choice?

Inserts, busses, plug-ins, sends/returns
and all the other aspects of signal routing are part of the charm of signal recording.

It's gives choices.

And again, doing processing in multiple stages or multiple places in the signal chain is going to wield different results than applying all that processing at one point.

I think you are in the minority on this one. Mic pres are to an audio engineer what effects pedals are to a guitarist.
More flavors. More tonal choices.

Sure, some companies used some software voodoo and took all those boxes and cables and stuffed them "in the amp".

Does this produce the same result as that mess of cables and stompboxes?
No. But, it is what it is. Another flavor.

They did the same thing trying to emulate tube amps...trying to get the sound of a tube amp without all the hassles of tubes. Same thing you say you desire.
But the results (though admirable) still don't achieve the same thing.

I'd say the pre-amp is the most critical link in the signal chain. That's where all that hard work securing that great guitar tone with a clock radio and micing it up with a headphone driver mounted in a dixie cup is going to come together.

And I want choices on how I'm going to blend these wonderful analog voltages together!

"...eliminated from the face of the earth."

Pfftt.

B-Lips is like mad trolling me, dude. http://dxo.forumsplace.com/images/smiles/wtf.gif

http://dxo.forumsplace.com/images/smiles/blol.gif

I'm going over to the guitar forum and tell them you said they should banish stomp boxes from the earth.

http://dxo.forumsplace.com/images/smiles/zz_soapbox.gifhttp://dxo.forumsplace.com/images/smiles/cheer.gif

Peace and Chicken grease,

d-lips

roger, over and out, 10-4, affirmative, i got a copy on that, your clear for takeoff, east bound and down...

:D

Boccaccio7070

09-15-2006, 01:05 PM

Brittany Lips-

I guess this whole question has become a generational thing. Sitting in Criteria's Studio B for the majority of every waking hour in 1981-1983 , I lived in a world of outboard boxes of every shape and size, doing a variety of tasks. The mother of invention was duly present at all times, and you quickly learned that signal path and combinations of modules provided a character unlike that of any console controls. You learned that electricity was flexible, moldable, and that mathematics could "curve the air" so to speak.

The Kids coming up today have a "studio" in their bedroom at the age of 14, and think that this will get them the same sound. Or is it, they don't even know what "that" sound is?

Most of todays recordings are near unlistenable because the old school recording source techniques have begun going the way of the dodo bird. And once it's in the box, baby, aint nothing gonna bring it back

I know every generation looks down at the younger one as if they were crazy, but your comments reveal such a lack of basic recording knowledge that I feel bad for you. Pick up a John Woram book (required reading at University of Miami school of music engineering) or if that's too dry for you, even Geoff Emerick's "Here there and everywhere; my life recording the Beatles" will at least open your mind to a world you seem convinced is nothing but a sham.

Boccaccio7070

09-15-2006, 05:49 PM

Calgary

With every word, you reveal your ignorance.

I'm not Gay, but have some dear friends and a brother who are. My world is enriched with their talents, compassion and perceptions. Like i care which orifice they prefer? Do I care that you like ketchup on your porterhouse steak?
To (un)veil your bland bigotry behind a smile icon due to a simple wiring difference in the still-in-beta mode human brain is beyond my meager judgement or any enviromental bigotry I might possess. Come as you are, Calgary, come as you are. If you don't have a gay friend, it is obvious you have not grasped the concept of a full life.

And in terms of Role Models, I couldn't possibly be your role model. You just don't have it in you.
I scrambled from a busted home in a nowhere town of 2300 people and carved it out. No training. No money. Nothing but desire and a non-defeatist attitude. I didn't have time to bitch on a forum, as i was too busy learning, taking my lumps and moving forward.

Now go into your Mommy's basement and write some music already. Stop your petty whining. I've written 2 spots for OLN between your missives. 17 grand the better.
Is it art? No, it's a craft, but it enables me to take the rest of the month to work 24/7 on my "real" music, which is. (The spots are "The Huntley Way" and "Mountain West Football" opening themes...you can call the network in NYC to verify)
Did I mention the BMI residuals? Funny how it all adds up.

Hey, I'll sell you my old MOTU 1224 for a song.

Speaking of songs, What have you been up to?
It's apparent you are not a good enough writer to be trolling forums via the printed word. I would love to hear your music, or are you too busy writing about Mackie and making Gay smile icons.
Btw, my new 400F works quite well, sounds great, and with a few feedback driven changes to the Mac driver software, willl be a worthy second converter for a year or two to come.
Hey, Maybe write to Penthouse Forum.... they accept anything. You might even try writing a gay fantasy..... Are you man enough? :wave:

Anderton

09-15-2006, 11:50 PM

<<Most of todays recordings are near unlistenable because the old school recording source techniques have begun going the way of the dodo bird. And once it's in the box, baby, aint nothing gonna bring it back>>

I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studio, which is basically a combination of analog and digital gear. He and Bill Plummer spent about two years just evaluating gear -- hardware, software, in the box, out of the box, etc. They didn't really have an agenda, so they just chose whatever worked best. Sometimes it wasn't clear-cut -- like they would prefer to store on digital, but then they had to check out a bunch of clocks, converters, and software to see if they could get digital to sound the way they wanted.

The bottom line is they played me some tracks that sounded just plain great. They combined the very best of old school and new school gear and techniques, and not surprisingly, the results sounded better than either by itself.

So yes, once it's in the box, nothing's going to bring it back. But it seems if you put some of those old school techniques in the box too, everything turns out okay :)

Boccaccio7070

09-16-2006, 02:00 AM

Craig-

I completely agree....although i would love to see where the state of sound will be 50 years from now, after this digital newborn grows up and becomes mature, it's a wonderful time to be alive, on this cusp of tubes, binaries, wires , and code. I just wish the music scene wasn't in such a "lifestyle accessory" rut. History shoes us the period surrounding every turn of the century produces a downturn of the arts, with a rebirth that startles....so hey, Stravinsky started that nutty riot in Paris back in 1910 with his Firebird Suite, so maybe it won't be too long before the millenium doldrums get shaken once again...The underground London betting line on me achieving this is currently 3,456,945 to 1, but I'll lay the money down....

One of my favorite "new" techniques is to feed a female vocal thru a Groove Tubes GT67 ( not the best mic but sensible; just starting to re-explore vocal music) thru a Focusrite Liquid channel and then send it down the Apogee DA16X I/O pipe into a UAD Card running LA2A>Neve 1073>biased out Fairchild> EMT Plate 140 path (with a bit of Waves Doubler>Altiverb Putnum echo chamber around the edges, just for the hell of it.) And thats just my favorite this week
Its not Ocean Way, but i think I can almost see the whitecaps from here!

PS: I was reading an old KEYBOARD magazine from 17-18 years ago...kinda charming to see the world of midi and digital audi stumbling around in the languidly brightening gloom...happened to see an ad for your Ensoniq EPS library. Nice.

Speaking of KEYBOARD, just what the heck is goin on over there? the fonts are 50% larger, the page count has shrunk 40 % smaller, and with those useless side borders full of "Jargon" the count is really around 60%, the articles are poorly researched (no one knew Joe Zawinal's invert keyboard technique for the solo on "A remark you made"...the guy was KNOWN for that solo ... i wont even get into Steely Dan's keyboards) The general articles are (even for Keyboards somewhat slouchy prep reputation) balse', and I can never seem to find a review that isn't fueled by the Ad department knocking on the reviewer's door and yelling "Don't say anything bad, those guys at Roland are paying for the big party at Jim Aikens' this month!!"

I know this is not the forum, and as Editor at large, you're more Gonzo to begin with and not responsible, but they'll never print a letter from me, even as a reader of 30 years status ( I Used to own every issue till the Northridge Quake- still have issue 1 with Corea and a july 76 issue with Tony banks)
So i am using this connective space to ask you to shake the place up a bit ( or a lot) for the rest of us. I used to drive 35 miles to get that magazine back in the 70's...now i hardly make the effort to reach for it while sitting crosslegged at Barnes and Nobles, paging through SOS. At least tell them to cut the side margin crap. it worked for SPY magazine, but it's a frail facade for a magazine just treading water .

If I see a Key Buy award for a ringtone, I'll know it's the end. :p :

MikeRivers

09-16-2006, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Boccaccio7070
Speaking of KEYBOARD, just what the heck is goin on over there? the fonts are 50% largerSome of us old folks appreciate bigger fonts. I wish Tape Op used a bigger font. But smaller fonts save trees.

MikeRivers

09-16-2006, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Anderton
I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studioIf I knew you were that close, I would have come over and let the two of you fight over who was going to buy me dinner. ;)

Boccaccio7070

09-16-2006, 07:37 AM

I vote for bigger fonts on virtual synths, i'll suffer the bifocals for the Zine's if they would do that

I sold my Mach 5 becuase i just couldnt SEE the damn thing.....great color scheme MOTU. who'de ya hire for that one?
those guys who made the here-and-gone fad of 3D books that suddenly "pop" ("Oh, look, it's a pony") after staring blanky at them for 5 minutes?

Music Calgary

09-16-2006, 08:16 PM

I just spent an interesting evening at Paul Reed Smith's studio, which is basically a combination of analog and digital gear.
*Incredibly* cool.

The bottom line is they played me some tracks that sounded just plain great. They combined the very best of old school and new school gear and techniques, and not surprisingly, the results sounded better than either by itself.
Beyond cool!

Brittanylips

09-21-2006, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by the stranger

:eek:

For one, people outside the field aren't going to understand the need for quality pre-amplification. I'm sure they could grasp that different pre-amps impart different tonal qualities to a signal. I would hope that you also grasp the same concept, and I'm sure you do.

As for multiple stages? Why not? More choice is good. And another obvious point is that it does make a difference where in the chain you apply processing to a signal.

I can run a compressor on a signal before recording or after recording that signal. And the results won't be the same.

And being somebody with plenty of experience (which we know you have), you know that quality pre-amplification isn't exactly cheap. The trend towards outboard pre-amps is a response to the fact that a lot of gear follows a certain price point in design. And cost is always a factor. Most products have seen vast improvements in the quality of pre-amps
provided, but there is still a world of flavors to be had by being able to adjust this piece of the recording chain (which is one of the most important).

But, this is a good thing, IMO. It just adds more choices.

Most interfaces/etc have decent enough pre-amps to get the job done. But, why denounce the ability to have more colors to choose from?

Why does an artist use a variety of mediums and materials when he could just use the same tools over and over?

Why on earth would you expect somebody "outside of the field" to understand signal flow, anyway? :confused:
Did I say those things… Damn. Now I have to defend them. Oh well.

Ok.

Let me put it like this. Let’s divide the world into two opposite, competing philosophies: the world as it is (e.g. The collected works of Henry Kissinger) vs. the world as it should be, but isn’t (e.g. The collected works of Condoleeza Rice). Henry vs. Condi. Goofus vs. Galant.

You are Henry and I am Condi.

Henry accepts the recording world full of multiple stages of amplification, each of which is a signal processor with no off switch, and much of which was originally designed for other purposes ranging from radio broadcasting to telecommunications, all cobbled together in a Frankensteinian collection of unruly components.

Condi posits a simpler more peaceful world in which audio enters the recording environment transparently, is processed and mixed once by the engineer, and returned neatly to the outside world for all to enjoy. (Yes, this doesn’t exist. Neither does democracy in the Middle East).

Did you ever see the movie “Brazil?” Great movie. It depicts a world, no less crazy than our own, but different. For example, there are enormous ducts everywhere, huge tubes snaking in and out of every room. To us, it looks ridiculous. But as an element of the sci-fi reality in “Brazil,” ducts are taken for granted.

We take mic preamps for granted. But they are no less ridiculous.

Say you want to record a singer. There’s the singer, then there’s an object in front of them that converts their singing, the waves of oxygen molecules emanating from their face, into it a format that may be stored and manipulated in a recording environment. As it stands, those waves must pass through two large objects (each of which are made up of a number of smaller objects, but I digress): mic and preamp. Why not three large objects: mic, preamp, and post-pre-amp? Why not seven objects…. What I’m saying is, as Condi, I envision a simpler chain in which all that is required is one object.

That the second object can color the sound in a nice way gives us the misguided impression that there’s something particular valuable about it. But Condi would say, "why not make this stage universally transparent and invisible to the user, and if you like that color so much, add it during the mixing stage when you are adding other colors?" Then Condi would insult your preamp as an effects box with no off switch and trot off to K Street for a snack.

As Henry, you embrace the world as it is and love your preamps no less than your mics. Truth be known, I live in Henry's world too (I suppose we all do) and one of my very favorite pieces of equipment is a preamp, which aside from being a great preamp is something of a work of art. But that doesn’t stop me from realizing that if someone who knows nothing about recording asks me why must I place a big box between the microphone and the line level input of my interface, any reason I give them, however much it makes sense to me, will not make sense to them. And they have a point.

Take phantom power, for example. We take it for granted in a way that we don’t take preamps for granted. But why should we? I used to live near an engineering friend of mine who collected vintage equipment, and would lend me things from time to time. These would often come with their own, weird, ancient, proprietary power supplies. That’s no longer the case and subsequently we don’t covet power supplies. They've become invisible, transparent, no big deal.

Higher resolution digital formats that can deal with the dynamics of real life have also simplified the chain in terms of making compression on the way in less standard. So that’s one less stage of redundant processing, eliminated by technological progress. If you want to compress, great, but do it downstream. What theoretical advantage exists to applying compression on individual tracks at multiple stages?

So as Condi, I’m thinking of the actual trip sound must make from the real world to the recording world and back out to the real world and envisioning it as straight as possible. Bring the sounds in as transparently as possible passing through as few boxes as possible, and then apply whatever effects you like but do it no more than once. Then, having colored and mixed the sound to your heart's content, return it to the real world so other people can hear it too.

So yes, we live in Henry’s world, but at some point, hopefully, we’ll live in Condi’s.

P.S. since this thread is immortal, it will continue to exist long after mic preamps have gone the way of the bustle.

-peaceloveandbrittanylips