Vocal Forum [Archive] - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums

EugeneBr

10-10-2005, 01:30 AM

Welcome Vocalists , to the Vocal Forum. (Interim) Great! Thanx!
Ok, here's my question. I 'sing' with a band for more then 10 years - I'm a frontman. Never had any vocal training - heard of a few concepts here and there, but nothing formal. Surprisingly, my audience still likes my voice. Nevertheless, I feel the need to grow as a vocalist. Taking lessons with a teacher is out of question because of finances and time. So,
1) What do I need to know about existing approaches to vocal training? I mean, what 'schools' exist out there, are any of them mutually exclusive, so once you've started one, you pretty much can't go with another?
2) What good free resources are available on the Net? I tried googling it, not much success, maybe I don't know what to ask about?
3) Are there any good, proven video/computer/audio courses available to buy cheaply that can be of help? The newly advertised here on HC "EZ Vocal Method" sounds perfect, but don't all of them? I guess I'd need something with both warmup, theory and training exercises.
4) Is there anything to definitely stay away from? I know about not eating icecream right before singing, but what about more serious stuff? Like I've heard one shouldn't try to learn the growling technique without a teacher - too much risk to break your vocal cords.
Well, this is about it for now. Any advice?

Bajazz

10-10-2005, 03:05 AM

Why not start vocal threads with "Vocal Forum: [Subject]" until we get our own forum?

Originally posted by EugeneBr
Great! Thanx!
Ok, here's my question. I 'sing' with a band for more then 10 years - I'm a frontman. Never had any vocal training - heard of a few concepts here and there, but nothing formal. Surprisingly, my audience still likes my voice. Nevertheless, I feel the need to grow as a vocalist. Taking lessons with a teacher is out of question because of finances and time. Similar to my position. I took some lessons, but had to quit b/c of money, time, long drives to get to a vocal teacher that was very busy etc...

1) What do I need to know about existing approaches to vocal training? I mean, what 'schools' exist out there, are any of them mutually exclusive, so once you've started one, you pretty much can't go with another?I'll assume your not talking classical or opera here, cause those have their own schools, as do musical theatre. I found two schools: SLS (speech level singing) and powerful singing (including screams)

- SLS'ers tend to believe that it's wrong to force anything, singing is supposed to be easy, mostly found in pop, country, gospel etc, but also some more heavy stuff. Look up Seth Riggs and Brett Manning.
- Power singers often get hoarse after gigs, but there are lots of teachers out there with receipies on how to do it right, all though I've not found the correct path yet. See "The zen of screaming" and "The complete vocal workout"

2) What good free resources are available on the Net? I tried googling it, not much success, maybe I don't know what to ask about?http://www.stagepass.com/faqvocal.html http://www.voicelesson.com/html/faq/faq_02.htm

3) Are there any good, proven video/computer/audio courses available to buy cheaply that can be of help? The newly advertised here on HC "EZ Vocal Method" sounds perfect, but don't all of them? I guess I'd need something with both warmup, theory and training exercises.
I've found Brett Mannings "Singing Success" to be fine.

4) Is there anything to definitely stay away from? I know about not eating icecream right before singing, but what about more serious stuff? Like I've heard one shouldn't try to learn the growling technique without a teacher - too much risk to break your vocal cords.As with other physical activity: tiring = building, hurting = destroying. I always work on getting rid of unneccesary tension. I don't think you'll get completely rid of it, but minimizing will help you be able to focus on the muscles doing the actual work.

aerorockjax

10-10-2005, 06:43 AM

Here are some good sites with useful information.
http://www.voicelesson.com/html/lessons/free_lessons.htm

http://www.vocalist.org.uk

J Kylez

10-10-2005, 11:12 AM

I will second and third the links to:

Voice Lesson (http://www.voicelesson.com)

Definitely pick up the book if you're interested. The book discusses all aspects of your life and how they relate to singing. It will give you a great understanding of all the parts involved in singing and how they work together. It also has good material on voice strengthening and such.

Don't necessarily buy it from the site but get it from Amazon or something. I think it's $14 or something like that.

dblair

10-11-2005, 03:07 PM

Pretty vague question. Check out some of the info I posted on my site daveblairmusic.com Should answer some of the questions you are concerned with. Most voice exercise tapes I've heard are pretty scary. Sounds like the person putting them together just put a bunch of exercises together without much knowledge of voice. voice building is a real science based on physiology, frequencies, math, etc. I hear these CDs that are just someone going up a scale on Ahs, then taking it up half a stem then doing it again. If you do properly I guess its better than stepping on stage cold but some of these could actually make you worse. No substitute for a highly qualified teacher. But they are hard to find. But if you have 0 money and can get no training if you do get books or tapes read many and you will see some common concepts that do work like diaphramatic breathing, which is basically taking the breath by filling up your lower abdomen area than supporting your voice by squeezing this baloon of air. No tension or effort is made in your upper body to take in air. Go by feel, it it feels bad your probably doing something wrong, abusing your voice. Always warm up. If you dont know an exercise routine that works warm up using parts of songs, start with easy comfortable songs concentrating on your breath and support to get that going consitetntly and automatically. Then gradually move on to other parts of tunes that when you sing them feel like they are introducing a new element into your voice, like some brightness, more depth, As you do this more you'll discover what parts work for you in what order and can come up with a fairly effective song vocalization. And get warmed up without abusing your voice. And wont be going on stage cold. Do this in a way that focuses on your breath and support, not in your car on the way to the gig singing along to the radio. I know you've done it. But that is by no means vocalizing. No substitute for real lessons but hope this gives some info. and check out my website for some more basics. Good luck.

EugeneBr

10-12-2005, 10:53 PM

Thank you guys, these resources are definetely helpful, I've already learned a few things just by reading through. Naturally, it will take more time to really absorb the stuff. Bajazz, this Brett Manning's "Singing Success" looks very good, but $200 is a serious investment for me - right now I'm afraid I've got more burning musical buying priorities. I know he offers a lot for the money and it'll probably be cheaper in the end then buying 20 other courses for $15 each just to find out he has it all and better. But still... Maybe someone else could recommend a cheaper course, maybe not as comprehensive, but covering well at least a few basic issues? Or at least could list some of the themes/areas that are good to learn about, like for example that "diaphramatic breathing" - I was taught that by a visiting singer some years ago, and that pretty much revolutionized my singing. Any other such things? Oh, and I guess I'd be more interested in things in the lines of speech level singing, rather then screaming and such.

Bajazz

10-13-2005, 02:08 AM

Try Seth Riggs book "Singing for the stars" with 2 CD's. Has much of the same excercises. I think Brett studied with Seth. It's like Luke Skywalker and Yoda... :D

I think you can get the book for about $30 on Ebay and Amazon.

Good luck!

strat2

10-15-2005, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by EugeneBr
Thank you guys, these resources are definetely helpful, I've already learned a few things just by reading through. Naturally, it will take more time to really absorb the stuff. Bajazz, this Brett Manning's "Singing Success" looks very good, but $200 is a serious investment for me - right now I'm afraid I've got more burning musical buying priorities. I know he offers a lot for the money and it'll probably be cheaper in the end then buying 20 other courses for $15 each just to find out he has it all and better. But still... Maybe someone else could recommend a cheaper course, maybe not as comprehensive, but covering well at least a few basic issues? Or at least could list some of the themes/areas that are good to learn about, like for example that "diaphramatic breathing" - I was taught that by a visiting singer some years ago, and that pretty much revolutionized my singing. Any other such things? Oh, and I guess I'd be more interested in things in the lines of speech level singing, rather then screaming and such.

It's good that you've learned some of the breathing fundamentals.

I would stay far away from 'speech level' technique, and go for traditional study, as
the last thing you want to do in my opinion is try to sing or approach singing
anything like how you talk.
I can sing without the complete traditional support and it may sound pretty good ,
and in some cases a tune sounds better, but it is not sustainable for my voice ,
and so much of the other material I do completely blows sub par technique away.

I'm not saying it won't satisfy your needs, I just wouldn't spin my wheels personally on it.

You haven't mentioned problem areas or areas you excel in vocally, it sounds like things are
going fairly well.
One small tip I've learned to help me with my breathing is to fill up with low focus as if a balloon , the catch however is that you can't afford any tension at all at the throat so this balloon is never closed up at top where
you'd normally tie it off.(there's legions more info though on breathing, that's important to learn)
Singing is about balance, application of some concepts vary a bit from person to person, so it can be tough to put a lot of these concepts to actual use, that's where a teacher comes in handy, I'm like you though I think, as there aren't any in my area.
I'll post more links as this thread progresses, I've lost a lot of links in my last crash.
Meanwhile google as I did for hours and hours pouring through site after site to piece together useful info , allot of what you find will be total garbage , you need to learn how to spot it.
I started with --- free singing tips, free vocal lessons,vocal forums...

Here's a link to the best teacher I've come across in my travels , this guy is definitely the real deal,
I haven't reviewed the cd he sells, but have learned a lot from his writings. This is the one of maybe two teachers I've come across that tell it like it is, and don't act like singing is a mystery.

http://www.voiceteacher.com/

I know you said you've been doing this a long time and so have I, a serious vocalist is always a student.
Good luck, let us know how you progress.
-
-

Bajazz

10-17-2005, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by strat2
I would stay far away from 'speech level' technique, and go for traditional study, as
the last thing you want to do in my opinion is try to sing or approach singing
anything like how you talk.I guess you've read the article by David Jones. FYI, He's wrong when he describes SLS as "words on pitch". If you read stuff by some SLS instructors you'll know that it's excactly what SLS is NOT, talking in pitch. It's a common misconception. You can do SLS loud, very loud. The most significant thing about SLS is that it don't force chestvoice up, thus lack the beltiest sounding belting. However I do songs by Deep purple and Bon Jovi in SLS without it sounding or feeling wrong.

I agree on not relying solely on SLS. Of course, you wouldn't rely only on belting og falsetto or other techniques. The reason I mentioned SLS is that it has affected my singing most, more than seeing a vocal teacher and learning screaming technique (Which can be done healty using SLS) Most people need to work on smoothing the bridges, and that's where I found SLS superior to other methods.

But it's just my opinion. Because you master one techniqe doesn't mean you need stick to it, it only means your palette growing.

strat2

10-17-2005, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I guess you've read the article by David Jones. FYI, He's wrong when he describes SLS as "words on pitch". If you read stuff by some SLS instructors you'll know that it's excactly what SLS is NOT, talking in pitch. It's a common misconception. You can do SLS loud, very loud. The most significant thing about SLS is that it don't force chestvoice up, thus lack the beltiest sounding belting. However I do songs by Deep purple and Bon Jovi in SLS without it sounding or feeling wrong.

I didn't realize you were suggesting SLS, I'm not a voice teacher so
you have to take my ideas with a grain of salt. Barrowing some SLS technique
might be a big help for certain styles.
For now the tunes I'm focusing on, (Cash,Jennings,Morrison) traditional vocal methods
are a good compliment. I need to alter some of the traditional technique to get a more
authentic sound for things like Hotel Calif and T.C.B. .

One thing for all to keep in mind though is if your 'volume' is coming from too much
pressure on the larynx disaster is possible around the corner maybe not immediately but
in time.Healthy volume is a product of Balance,Support,Focus.

All,

These are just my opinions if you have methods that work for you and your voice is not loosing tone,range,flexibility,endurance, you're probably on the right track.

Thought for the day: never try to sing above the band,use great monitors and let the engineer handle f.o.h. mix.
-
-
-

Bajazz

10-18-2005, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by strat2
Thought for the day: never try to sing above the band,use great monitors and let the engineer handle f.o.h. mix.I got a new DVD in the mail yesterday: Mark Baxter "The singers Toolbox" where he said he use earplugs and no monitors on stage! :eek: He relies totally on the sensation.

strat2

10-19-2005, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I got a new DVD in the mail yesterday: Mark Baxter "The singers Toolbox" where he said he use earplugs and no monitors on stage! :eek: He relies totally on the sensation.

He must be a true master, I haven't heard him.

Note:
Many Opera singers are able to rely on 'sensation' ,if the acoustics are faulty or lacking.
I wonder what they would rely on with one of my old half stacks in their ear, (they tend to create their own sensations, boy I miss them,geee...) ahh the good ol' days.
-
-
-

Bajazz

10-20-2005, 01:57 AM

Suggest you take a search. He is a top vocal coach. Steven Tyler is amonst his students.

strat2

10-20-2005, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Suggest you take a search. He is a top vocal coach. Steven Tyler is amonst his students.

Right , I've heard Tyler.
Have never heard Mark Baxter sing ,nor any of his albums , and hence I've never heard his unmonitored perfomances either, I'll just assume they are great, and again he must be a fantastic singer.

Like I said earlier :

"These are just my opinions if you have methods that work for you and your voice is not loosing tone,range,flexibility,endurance, you're probably on the right track."

Any method that can cover the above I'm all for 100%.

By the way as you move forward with his lessons maybe you could throw out things you learn that may be helpful to other HC vocalists.

I just recieved a Cd from another teacher today, it's amazing how I could forget so many basic principles over the years.
Also things you thought you understood ,take on a different light.

What kind of mic & pa set up do you use, you're guitar and voice right ?
I got rid of a decent Yamaha set up , I decided it was too much for what I'm dong now (with Heavy 15's), I'd like to find something very portable and compact with huge fidelity not too much volume and fantastic basic effects.
Such an animal doesn't exist yet I don't think, so I'm hoping a gen 2 of the simple, self contained variety will come out soon.
I'd like to be able to show up with one trip into the gig , Guitar and mic stand in one hand and a small incredible pa on wheels in the other.
-
-
-

fastplant

10-20-2005, 08:26 AM

I really don't understand why HC doesn't have a separate vocal forum. It's not like we're asking for a tuba forum. There are vocalists in pretty much every band that every member belongs in.

MDLMUSIC

10-20-2005, 05:47 PM

So whose palms do we need to grease to get the Vocal Forum started?

Bajazz

10-21-2005, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by strat2
Right , I've heard Tyler.
Have never heard Mark Baxter sing ,nor any of his albums , and hence I've never heard his unmonitored perfomances either, I'll just assume they are great, and again he must be a fantastic singer.As a matter of fact. I do most gigs without monitors too, but don't use plugs (unless I use IEM) See website for videos of a performance without monitors. I guess it's like when I started doing gigs without my lyrics folder. Need to jump into it. :thu:

"These are just my opinions if you have methods that work for you and your voice is not loosing tone,range,flexibility,endurance, you're probably on the right track."

Any method that can cover the above I'm all for 100%.BTW, I don't think Mark teaches SLS, he is more of a traditional rock vocal guy. When I started with SLS excercises this year, I found out fast it wouldn't be the answer to everything. But it is very good on relaxing and smoothing bridges. I also have a book called "The complete vocal workout" by Roger Kain that seems to be the opposite of SLS. It practically says "scream from your guts, then it won't hurt!" it works lots on diaphragm support, breathing and support, which is practically non-existent in SLS.

Yes, there are different methods, I'd like to learn them all and be able to use them all. Now I think I want to check out "Bel canto".
By the way as you move forward with his lessons maybe you could throw out things you learn that may be helpful to other HC vocalists. This video is more of a summary of vocal health and why it is important to warm up/down. The best advice I can give from this video is: don't be dehydrated when you sing. Warm up before you sing and warm down after the show. Always try to relax as much as possible when you practice.

What kind of mic & pa set up do you use, you're guitar and voice right ? Now I have just bought a new Sabine swf7000 wireless 2-channel system which will replace my old Shure Performance. Mic is Countryman Isomax E6, guitar is Line6 Variax 700 Acoustic. Pa is STK SFX256 Mixer/fx, dbx Driverack PA EQ (RTA+ fbx) IEM is Shure PSM 200 and I paid for a BOSS vf-1 minutes ago on Ebay. Speakers are FBT MaxX 4A (active 12")

I'd like to be able to show up with one trip into the gig , Guitar and mic stand in one hand and a small incredible pa on wheels in the other:idea: Why not guitar on your back and PA including wireless mic in a roller case. Then You'll have one hand free to open doors, besides you don't have to deal with karaoke singers stealing your mic all the time... :D ANyway I think Mipro and Fender + lots others have such systems. FBT Amico and HK Audio etc... Do some googling and you'll find. :wave:

strat2

10-21-2005, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by strat2

Thought for the day: never try to sing above the band,use great monitors and let the engineer handle f.o.h. mix.
-
-
-

I thought maybe I should clarify my earlier comment on monitors for vocalists, but I see looking back it was fairly spelled out:

"...never try to sing above the band..."
This is not intended to be a must for a guy in a coffee shop, I've sung way way more without monitors than I have with.
If you are fronting a 5 piece band at show spl's you'll have no trouble grasping the concept of monitors after the first set or two.

-
-
-

strat2

10-21-2005, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by MDLMUSIC
So whose palms do we need to grease to get the Vocal Forum started?

You think ?,

Well then , I hope they don't mind my I.O.U.'S .
-
-
-

strat2

10-21-2005, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz

Yes, there are different methods, I'd like to learn them all and be able to use them all. Now I think I want to check out "Bel canto".
This video is more of a summary of vocal health and why it is important to warm up/down. The best advice I can give from this video is: don't be dehydrated when you sing. Warm up before you sing and warm down after the show. Always try to relax as much as possible when you practice.

Now I have just bought a new Sabine swf7000 wireless 2-channel system which will replace my old Shure Performance. Mic is Countryman Isomax E6, guitar is Line6 Variax 700 Acoustic. Pa is STK SFX256 Mixer/fx, dbx Driverack PA EQ (RTA+ fbx) IEM is Shure PSM 200 and I paid for a BOSS vf-1 minutes ago on Ebay. Speakers are FBT MaxX 4A (active 12")

:idea: Why not guitar on your back and PA including wireless mic in a roller case. Then You'll have one hand free to open doors, besides you don't have to deal with karaoke singers stealing your mic all the time... :D ANyway I think Mipro and Fender + lots others have such systems. FBT Amico and HK Audio etc... Do some googling and you'll find. :wave:

Yea I definetly agree on the Bel Canto gen school of singing, should find some real world step by step application of balance.

I almost bought that 'Line6 Variax 700 Acoustic' , at the time I needed it in black and they didn't have it.I don't care much whether it sounds like a D28 or what have you,
I just like a guitar that sounds awesome. There was a setting that sounded like it had some chorus in it and I thought that sounded really great.
It'll be very cool when someone comes out with an acoustic/semi guitar that has chorus, delay,compression available 'on board' , maybe someone already does.

Unfortunately as far as really portable pa's goes (for a solo act), PD 250 is probably as close as it gets to what I want, except I understand the on board effects are near useless, I'd be willing to pay more to get a compact unit like that with built in awesome effects, don't need huge loud like I say just incredible fidelity with awesome basic effects,someday...
Oh and I almost forgot, they could keep those karaeoke mic's and other accesories that they usually include, and put that money back into the unit itself.
-
-
-

Lee Flier

10-21-2005, 11:01 AM

Well, fastplant sent me a PM alerting me to this thread and I'll see what I can do about getting the vocalizers your own forum. :thu:

strat2

10-21-2005, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Lee Flier
Well, fastplant sent me a PM alerting me to this thread and I'll see what I can do about getting the vocalizers your own forum. :thu:
Hey awesome Lee,

Thanks for any help you can throw our way!
Thanks for sending that PM fastplant...
-
-
-

Bajazz

10-22-2005, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by strat2
It'll be very cool when someone comes out with an acoustic/semi guitar that has chorus, delay,compression available 'on board' , maybe someone already does.Well, the Variax has compressor, volume and tone/sound control, which is savable for each model. It also has custom tunings for each model. I suggest you to d/l the manual, it's awesome. I think it sounds very good, but the hardest thing to get used to is the lack of vibrating body. This was much worse than I thought it would be, but I'm fine now. It's funny how much the acoustic guitar sound you feel, and not just hear. You also hear a acoustic very different when you sit in front or have it in your lap, it's two different things. I think that's the main reason for someone have anything against a variax, they aren't used to really hear a acoustic guitar sound, but to have the feel when playing it themself. And that's obviously 2 very different things.

anonpostguy

10-24-2005, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by strat2

Right , I've heard Tyler.
Have never heard Mark Baxter sing ,nor any of his albums , and hence I've never heard his unmonitored perfomances either, I'll just assume they are great, and again he must be a fantastic singer.

Like I said earlier :

"These are just my opinions if you have methods that work for you and your voice is not loosing tone,range,flexibility,endurance, you're probably on the right track."

Any method that can cover the above I'm all for 100%.

By the way as you move forward with his lessons maybe you could throw out things you learn that may be helpful to other HC vocalists.

I just recieved a Cd from another teacher today, it's amazing how I could forget so many basic principles over the years.
Also things you thought you understood ,take on a different light.

What kind of mic & pa set up do you use, you're guitar and voice right ?
I got rid of a decent Yamaha set up , I decided it was too much for what I'm dong now (with Heavy 15's), I'd like to find something very portable and compact with huge fidelity not too much volume and fantastic basic effects.
Such an animal doesn't exist yet I don't think, so I'm hoping a gen 2 of the simple, self contained variety will come out soon.
I'd like to be able to show up with one trip into the gig , Guitar and mic stand in one hand and a small incredible pa on wheels in the other.
-
-
-

When I do a solo or duo acoustic, I use my Fender Acoustisonic amp. It has two channels, one for guitar and one for voice. These have independant eq's and DSP's. It is one trip from the car to the stage.

fastplant

10-24-2005, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by strat2

Thanks for sending that PM fastplant...

No prob, it's been bugging me for a while that there is no vocal forum.

strat2

10-24-2005, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by anonpostguy

When I do a solo or duo acoustic, I use my Fender Acoustisonic amp. It has two channels, one for guitar and one for voice. These have independant eq's and DSP's. It is one trip from the car to the stage.

Thanks for the info anonpostguy ,

This amp looks like it has all I ever want in an amp , but I'm not sure about it being able to deliver on 'awesome' low volume vocal reproduction.
Are you happy with it vocally?
I may have to change my outlook on my geer and get this one whether it can handle the vocal job or not though.
It looks to me like this might have a sound similar to my old JC 120, except with additional features.
-
-

toelessfoot

10-25-2005, 12:40 AM

Ya, hard to beleive there isn't a Singing section of the forum, but yeah thanks for all the great links! Too bad most people just give you a taste and then insist you buy their book or DVD, hehe but i guess nothings "free".

strat2

10-25-2005, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by toelessfoot
Ya, hard to beleive there isn't a Singing section of the forum, but yeah thanks for all the great links! Too bad most people just give you a taste and then insist you buy their book or DVD, hehe but i guess nothings "free".

Yes I too agree, there are a ton of sites out there luring you in with vague hints of singing principles given in broad generalities.
Nothing is free, but sometimes the price is exhaustive googling, and if you've got the time to google...

I personally would buy nothing from a site that gives you lots of vague ideas about how to sing if they don't emmediatly knock you on the head with one that says to you, hey this feels like it will help.
I will only get on the hook if the site gives me at least one or two principles of 'real' and traditional singing principles in heavily detailed easy to understand language.
Nobody is giving away the farm by giving you a couple of their secrets, it just shows they are not smoke an mirrors.

I heard Randy Travis once say "...singing bad is easy..."
-
-

anonpostguy

10-25-2005, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by strat2

Thanks for the info anonpostguy ,

This amp looks like it has all I ever want in an amp , but I'm not sure about it being able to deliver on 'awesome' low volume vocal reproduction.
Are you happy with it vocally?
I may have to change my outlook on my geer and get this one whether it can handle the vocal job or not though.
It looks to me like this might have a sound similar to my old JC 120, except with additional features.
-
-

It sounds really good for vocals. When I do a two piece acoustic show I just run a small xlr mixer into the amp so that we can have two mics running and it sounds great also. I have rented small PA's in the past to see if it would sound better and I have always come back to my Acoustisonic amp. I played in a two piece recently for a corporate gig. We were playing for about 150 people in a big hall. I couldn't put the volume past 3 & 1/2 because it was just too loud. For dinner music, I ran a line into the amp from an MP3 player and it sounded mint. I had some light jazz with that really low standup bass and it handled it exceptionally well.

When I play in a full band, it is a great acoustic guitar amp, in its own right. It has a DI out the back. All in all, one of the most versatile pieces of equipment that I own. It was very inexpensive for all the ground it covers.

Over the years, I have bought gear then sold it all a number of times. I am now extremely picky when it comes to buying gear. If I buy it now, I am intent on keeping it for the next twenty years so I put a lot of research and thought into my purchases.

strat2

10-25-2005, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by anonpostguy
Over the years, I have bought gear then sold it all a number of times. I am now extremely picky when it comes to buying gear. If I buy it now, I am intent on keeping it for the next twenty years so I put a lot of research and thought into my purchases.
Ok I'm sold,
Thanks for your experience with it, that'll be my next addition.
Man I tell you , the story of my life when it comes to seling off what you bought.
Always sounds pretty good in the store, but no possible way to know till you've kicked it around a couple or three weeks,on stage / at home.
There may be an advantage to reading reviews,specs, comments by other players , over even visiting the store at all. LoL
-
-

strat2

10-28-2005, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
However I do songs by Deep purple and Bon Jovi in SLS without it sounding or feeling wrong.

This is a good point I think. If it feels right it probably is.
Borrowing from one school and integrating with another can be benificial.
I usually know in a day or two if a new technique is doing me any good.
=
=

strat2

10-31-2005, 10:32 AM

Question to the pro level working vocalists out here that are totally
confident and satisfied with their vocal performances:

Besides thousand of hours of singing, what specific fundamentals have you
found most contribute to your on-stage vocal success?
Do you always get on stage knowing you will have no negative surprises?
Has it always gone this good?
=
=

strat2

11-02-2005, 05:35 PM

javascript:smilie(':wave:')

Ok guys hopefully HC will now be letting us have a Vocal forum
soon , but we won't know till it happens .
Meanwhile this is my last bump for this interim 'Vocal Forum' .
Take Care,Ted
=
=

Bajazz

11-03-2005, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by strat2
Question to the pro level working vocalists out here that are totally
confident and satisfied with their vocal performances:

Besides thousand of hours of singing, what specific fundamentals have you
found most contribute to your on-stage vocal success?
Do you always get on stage knowing you will have no negative surprises?
Has it always gone this good?
=
= I'm not full time pro, but a weekend warrior, so take it with a grain of salt:

- I sing in my car, sing-along to my mp3 player with technical excercises while I clean the house, sit at the PC etc etc. I also found the PS2 Singstar games to be a good vocal workout. Mostly no negative surprises, used to strain and tense up much more before. I've gained pitch, control and tone, I think. Actually I've had it commented.

ZigZagWanderer

11-03-2005, 11:56 AM

Interesting thread. Like most of you, I am struggling to find my niche as a singer. I've taken lessons on and off for several years, and I know they have helped, but I'm still just not getting it. I wanted to throw a couple of issues out:

**I've found that I sing in higher registers when I'm standing up in a band situation. When I'm at home, sitting down and working stuff out on an acoustic, I seem to drift toward lower registers. So it ends up that I'm not able to use a lot of stuff that I work out because I want to push everything higher in a band situation. Lower notes just don't seem to cut and carry as well as higher ones.

**Are there any vocal mikes that are especially good for bass/baritone singers? I have a 57 and a 58, but I was wondering if there is anything out there that is geared for lower voices.

strat2

11-03-2005, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by ZigZagWanderer
Interesting thread. Like most of you, I am struggling to find my niche as a singer. I've taken lessons on and off for several years, and I know they have helped, but I'm still just not getting it. I wanted to throw a couple of issues out:

**I've found that I sing in higher registers when I'm standing up in a band situation. When I'm at home, sitting down and working stuff out on an acoustic, I seem to drift toward lower registers. So it ends up that I'm not able to use a lot of stuff that I work out because I want to push everything higher in a band situation. Lower notes just don't seem to cut and carry as well as higher ones.

**Are there any vocal mikes that are especially good for bass/baritone singers? I have a 57 and a 58, but I was wondering if there is anything out there that is geared for lower voices.
I hope someone will jump in on this and try to help you out.
Meanwhile I'll throw out a couple ideas, and this is probably a pretty common dilemma.
My last gig was Country now my next thing might be something all together different,
as occasionally I'll have a bad day/blow out my voice and not want to sing anymore.
Currently I'm into Doors,early Beatles easy stuff for me to sing ,some of it transposed
way down, but not so low so as it sounds too hokey.
Find a couple tunes that you like to sing and are so easy to sing it's ridicules, tunes that
most closely fit your 'natural' style, zero in on the way whole singing apparatus is coming
together : Breath, head resonators,tongue position,jaw,posture,etc.
Note what the notes are that you are singing,get to know the set up that works best for you.
With the myriad of lessons and all that I've had and sounds like you as well, what I've found
is that you need to respond to your own body as well as using basic proper singing fundamentals.
I found a sight from Australia once that talked about that, and found it to be so true it's spooky.
This partly explains why (many many) teachers teach and don't perform at the big pro level.
In other words if they could really find the magic within their voice they'd be performing big
venues making crazy cash.

I lock up better lately when I sing toward the upper end of my range and don't know why for sure
it's just easier. I rarely sing anything higher than about D# (half step lower than the #1 e string).

I'm in the same range Bass/Baritone. Nothing wrong with a 58 or 57 , I use the 58, and
have some seinnheiser e 835's that I like too.
Unless you are fundamentally right on target with huge resonance you're not going to get the
cut through volume you get with the higher range.But if you're blowing to much air through the
chords to get your volume regardless of range you'll be asking for major problems.
You can get more volume that way but it will be for a short time on your way down the mine shaft.

Get in front of your band with a known song and sing it in the key you rehearsed it at home in,
you don't just show up and let them tell you what key they think you should sing it in, take your guitar
and know what's going on,make sure you can hear yourself. It's natural when you
can't hear what you are doing to want start singing (yelling) higher/ louder and this also most likely
winds up accompanied by huge air which is again just yelling and totally screwing up the voice.
I'm not saying that you are doing that just that it's a natural tendency.
When I get my voice screwed up I go back to the one tune that I can do (with a nice ring tone) and slowly
transfer that 'feel' to my other tunes.
Just some ideas...
Check with your teacher before trying any of this.
Keep me/us posted with your progress. This is kinda like AA here, only here we can sing all we want.
=
=

Circulogi

11-04-2005, 03:46 PM

I'll make you guys a vocal Forum, it would take like 10 seconds. ;)

www.promusicgear.com

Thundercranium

11-04-2005, 06:22 PM

Hey! If the powers that be are listening, I'll add my voice (pardon the pun) to those wanting a vocalist forum.

Hey...I've been around a while...listen to MEEEEE!!!!

strat2

11-07-2005, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Circulogi
I'll make you guys a vocal Forum, it would take like 10 seconds. ;)

www.promusicgear.com

Appreciate it Circulogi,

Right now we're tryn' to see if we can't get HC to give us one locally here.

=
=

gighunterII

11-12-2005, 12:30 PM

Hey guys, I was told that learning to sing would greatly expand my gigging opportunities, I'm a piano player by the way. I immediately began learning to sing with a voice teacher I came to respect and am still friends with. I studied voice extremely hard for 1 year, frankly, I was disappointed with the results. Some days I sound "ok," some days it sounds TERRIBLE.. :) There are big concepts I am just now barely beginning to catch onto. I have studied music seriously since I was 10 years old basically dedicating my life to it, I thought I could learn to sing in a few months, not the case. :) Frankly, in my studies with 2 voice teachers, the first one I studied with for 6 months, I don't think the approach worked for me. The second one seem to fit better to my style and goals but the improvement simply did not justify the expense not to mention the toll it took on time from my family. I practiced between 1 and 2 hours per day with a day off here and there. After my studies with the first one, my voice sounded emasculated... real real bad... Only when I began doing things 'incorrectly' did things kind of sound ok. Weird? They say don't push.. Billy Joel pushes like crazy and he is top 10 entertainers... Is he wrong? Don't think so.. Did he have off nights, sure, but is a legend too... Anyway, I just think that sometimes voice lessons kill your intuitive method of singing and effort to be express yourself. I realize I still am not clear on alot but still... Sometimes I think in the obesession to not push and not be tense, comes across as a real bland girlish sound.. In my experience anyway.. Anyone with me?? :)

Bajazz

11-14-2005, 03:43 AM

That's why I don't mix training/practice/technique with performance!

Whenever I practice at home I try to un-tense as much as possible without sounding goofy. Keep at it and by time you'll gradually master to focus tension at what should be tensed. IMO, there is no such things as totally relaxed singing, but there is no need for your eyes to pop out and to poop in your pants. Warming up does make this much easier, and if you don't have the time, just start easy, quiet and loose.

I don't think you can study vocals for some time and expect to be finshed, it's a lifetime yourney. Don't expect too much, just take your time and work at things. For the first time I discovered my mixed voice/strengtened falsetto some days ago. Now it comes and goes, but with some work I might be able to hit those AC/DC, Led Zeppelin etc... high notes.

strat2

11-15-2005, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by gighunterII
Hey guys, I was told that learning to sing would greatly expand my gigging opportunities, I'm a piano player by the way. I immediately began learning to sing with a voice teacher I came to respect and am still friends with. I studied voice extremely hard for 1 year, frankly, I was disappointed with the results. Some days I sound "ok," some days it sounds TERRIBLE.. :) There are big concepts I am just now barely beginning to catch onto. I have studied music seriously since I was 10 years old basically dedicating my life to it, I thought I could learn to sing in a few months, not the case. :) Frankly, in my studies with 2 voice teachers, the first one I studied with for 6 months, I don't think the approach worked for me. The second one seem to fit better to my style and goals but the improvement simply did not justify the expense not to mention the toll it took on time from my family. I practiced between 1 and 2 hours per day with a day off here and there. After my studies with the first one, my voice sounded emasculated... real real bad... Only when I began doing things 'incorrectly' did things kind of sound ok. Weird? They say don't push.. Billy Joel pushes like crazy and he is top 10 entertainers... Is he wrong? Don't think so.. Did he have off nights, sure, but is a legend too... Anyway, I just think that sometimes voice lessons kill your intuitive method of singing and effort to be express yourself. I realize I still am not clear on alot but still... Sometimes I think in the obesession to not push and not be tense, comes across as a real bland girlish sound.. In my experience anyway.. Anyone with me?? :)

What styles/artists do you sing ?

Do you sing Billy Joel tunes ?

What ranges do you sing best in ?
=
=

gighunterII

11-15-2005, 03:43 PM

Hey there, yup, I do Billy and Elton songs like crazy.. Can do Piano Man in original key but probably prefer down a half step, just sounds more relaxed for my voice. New York State of Mind, no way, have to bring it down 1 or 2 half steps, same with Honesty.. I can do about 20 Elton/Billy combined... Are you in AZ?

strat2

11-15-2005, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by gighunterII
Hey there, yup, I do Billy and Elton songs like crazy.. Can do Piano Man in original key but probably prefer down a half step, just sounds more relaxed for my voice. New York State of Mind, no way, have to bring it down 1 or 2 half steps, same with Honesty.. I can do about 20 Elton/Billy combined... Are you in AZ?

I'm in the north west part of AZ near Laughlin NV.

I know what your saying about counter productivity when applying so much technique till you bust.
All I can say is what I've experienced for myself of course.
I could write a long boring book on this subject so I'll try to just cover a couple points.
I've been singing for 30 years , right now it's Country and variety.
I sing only one Billy Joel tune 'Just the way you are' I have to use almost all traditional technique on that one and I sing it in B ,way down from the original.
Some Doors tunes ,tons of technique.
Eagles , very little technique.
I've gotten so much instruction on awful technique it wouldn't surprise me if you're getting it to , they mean well but they usually aren't incredible singers themselves, which speaks volumes to me , they're teaching is fine they just don't have a clue what really works.

I'll take a song and sing it throughout the day (off and on)and nothing else and see if I can sing it again the next day, and take notes of how I set up for the tune.
Breath set up, facial muscles throat,larynx,posture.

If I can't sing that tune well the next day I see that somethng is not right so I go back to a proven tune and work with it till I get back to a workable voice again.
Then if I can't accomadate the new tune , and make sure it's sustainable I shitcan it.
Worst thing to do is force the voice into something it doesn't want to do.
Using no traditional technique is ok to a point but as you know, a lot of top vocalists can no longer sing a nickles worth of sardines out of a bait shop due to lack of proper support, too much air blowing the chords away bruising chords permanently , in order to compensate for lack of resonance.
It takes no more air to get good loud sound if you use some of the basics.
I'd keep up with what you're doing , but keep close tabs on whether you are deteriorating or building reliability.
Like I said I've been doing this a long long time, sometimes really well and often very hit and miss.
That's because I've had so much terrible awfull instruction.

Just this last year I've made huge strides in reliability of tone and lack of onstage surprises.
1/2 was finding a teacher that knew better.
1/2 discovering unique personal traits that we all have that we need to pay attention to (see earlier comment about teachers that can't sing all that incredible).

I agree for some tunes you need to alter technique.
A lot of times I'll not take in a stadium of air, (I've been breathing for the last 30 some years by diaphram not chest anyway so that may help slightly) I'll relax and concentrate more on resonance,tone placement, and seeing that I rely on that tone rather than letting too much air go to compensate for what is not there.
Kinda like you said -- I used to get so tensed up with technique I sing like crap.
The things that work well usually feel really right.
Singing is all about relaxing , but most people need tons of technical trainnig to learn to do that ,it's very illusive other wise.

Last note for right now, I use a capo to learn songs often (cause it's usually easy to find the open tunning that is on the recording that way ) then transpose to my range. I gave up trying to sing in keys that aren't for me , no shame in that at all.
My guitar is tunned down a step and a half also , big help for my voice happens to give me a lot of open chords that fit my range.
=
=

strat2

11-15-2005, 05:25 PM

PS ,

Down the road it might be cool if some of us post links to little
20 or 30 second blurbs of just guitar (or piano) and voice, just simple throw away stuff original/cover to give an idea of what we're talking about, no big productions.
=
=

gighunterII

11-15-2005, 08:47 PM

Hey strat, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that. I agree.. I've heard teachers sing and thought, man, thats just bad... It was in tune but I was surprised this coming from a lady that had been studying and doing this for decades.... That in itself was disheartening in itself! :) I appreciate the note on changing keys. I have found some I am natural in, some really really rough. Thats interesting. In fact, I can sing piano man better in c, than in b a half step lower, even better than both in b flat.. Also great note on shitcanning a song... If you do it 100 times and it never ever improves... time to shelf it I think. back to your point about forcing a certain voice to do things it would rather not. Illusive, great great word in the singing struggle..

Bajazz

11-16-2005, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by gighunterII
Also great note on shitcanning a song... If you do it 100 times and it never ever improves... time to shelf it I think. Yes, but don't forget to pick it down from time to time. There might come a day when you can nail it.

About soundclips, I would be glad if anyone could comment on the videos on my webpage. they are acoustic guitar + vocals, no tricks.

strat2

11-16-2005, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by gighunterII
Also great note on shitcanning a song... If you do it 100 times and it never ever improves... time to shelf it I think. back to your point about forcing a certain voice to do things it would rather not. Illusive, great great word in the singing struggle..

I tend to get long winded, but geez there's so much about trying to learn an art.

Bajazz is so right about going back to that song that we throw out.
My way :
#1 When it's not working, trash it , throw it out without reservation as if it's gone forever.You're free of it!
#2 When you get bored a couple months or weeks latter, if the mood strikes you (and only then) dig out that tune and see where you're at with it. You might be shocked, your 'set up' might have changed a little and wham your all over the tune.
And I'm not saying your voice is 'stronger' at this point (stronger is not the key ,it's balance ) ,but your placements/set up is improved and better balanced.
=

strat2

11-18-2005, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Yes, but don't forget to pick it down from time to time. There might come a day when you can nail it.

About soundclips, I would be glad if anyone could comment on the videos on my webpage. they are acoustic guitar + vocals, no tricks.

I listened to a little bit of "I love Rock and Roll" I thought it sounded good, but it only plays on my pc about 6 seconds at a time, and then takes a minute or so to load even that short 6 second segment, could be my computer.

I noticed you were sittling on a stool, I can't sing worth a darn sitting down.
I know a lot of people do , just doesn't work for me, I have to stand most of the time.
=
=

tlbonehead

11-19-2005, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by gighunterII
Hey guys, I was told that learning to sing would greatly expand my gigging opportunities, I'm a piano player by the way. I immediately began learning to sing with a voice teacher I came to respect and am still friends with. I studied voice extremely hard for 1 year, frankly, I was disappointed with the results. Some days I sound "ok," some days it sounds TERRIBLE.. :) There are big concepts I am just now barely beginning to catch onto. I have studied music seriously since I was 10 years old basically dedicating my life to it, I thought I could learn to sing in a few months, not the case. :) Frankly, in my studies with 2 voice teachers, the first one I studied with for 6 months, I don't think the approach worked for me. The second one seem to fit better to my style and goals but the improvement simply did not justify the expense not to mention the toll it took on time from my family. I practiced between 1 and 2 hours per day with a day off here and there. After my studies with the first one, my voice sounded emasculated... real real bad... Only when I began doing things 'incorrectly' did things kind of sound ok. Weird? They say don't push.. Billy Joel pushes like crazy and he is top 10 entertainers... Is he wrong? Don't think so.. Did he have off nights, sure, but is a legend too... Anyway, I just think that sometimes voice lessons kill your intuitive method of singing and effort to be express yourself. I realize I still am not clear on alot but still... Sometimes I think in the obesession to not push and not be tense, comes across as a real bland girlish sound.. In my experience anyway.. Anyone with me?? :) That's why I never recommend using one unless it is someone who has a clue about popular music vocals. In fact,I recommend not having one screw you up.:cool: The thing is,if you take the vast majority of popular rock/blues/pop singers out there,most of them do most things against the grain as far as technically correctness goes. Can you imagine Eddie Vedder or Bob Seger NOT singing from his throat. And don't push? I mean,one of the first things I ever learned was to tighten the gut and push. Sure,if you want a techically pure and correct voice,get the best instructor you can find. Otherwise,just sing on your own,finding your own voice and working at getting a great ear,and go from there.

tlbonehead

11-19-2005, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by strat2

I listened to a little bit of "I love Rock and Roll" I thought it sounded good, but it only plays on my pc about 6 seconds at a time, and then takes a minute or so to load even that short 6 second segment, could be my computer.

I noticed you were sittling on a stool, I can't sing worth a darn sitting down.
I know a lot of people do , just doesn't work for me, I have to stand most of the time.
=
= I am 10x better singing while standing as well.

gighunterII

11-19-2005, 07:27 AM

agree agree agree. :)

Bajazz

11-20-2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by strat2
it only plays on my pc about 6 seconds at a time, and then takes a minute or so to load even that short 6 second segment, could be my computer.Which connection do you have? I use Flash .flv-video with progressive download (quasi-streaming) with default settings. Should work well on ISDN and better.

Bajazz

11-20-2005, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by tlbonehead
That's why I never recommend using one unless it is someone who has a clue about popular music vocals. In fact,I recommend not having one screw you up.:cool: The thing is,if you take the vast majority of popular rock/blues/pop singers out there,most of them do most things against the grain as far as technically correctness goes. Can you imagine Eddie Vedder or Bob Seger NOT singing from his throat. And don't push? I mean,one of the first things I ever learned was to tighten the gut and push. Sure,if you want a techically pure and correct voice,get the best instructor you can find. Otherwise,just sing on your own,finding your own voice and working at getting a great ear,and go from there. Agree and disagree...

I've learned to use correct (as I can get it) technique on songs who calls for it and my guts on others. However I've found Bob Seger's "Old time rock'n'roll" to be easier and easier the better my technique gets. I still push, but I tend to push more correct now. That is focusing on air stream and support and getting less tensed in face, neck shoulders etc. Put shortly: I scream the song more freely instead of worrying if I'll manage to push up to the highest notes. Completely automatic.

But the thing is I don't practice only technique. I also make sure to have a session each day of singing from my guts and worry zip about if I sing correct or not. I still see technique as a aid for expression, not a goal in it self.

Vocal teachers don't neccesary agree that singing from your guts is bad. Not ftom the throat either as long as you practice to do it right, causing minimal soreness. Sometimes I have 2 gigs the same day and another the day after. With my old technique I would have rule out "Summer of 69", "Wanted dead or alive", "Old time rock'n'roll" and other tunes, making the gigs into easy listening elevator music... But now I don't worry as long as I just try to throw in some warmup and relax while singing.

Bajazz

11-20-2005, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by tlbonehead
I am 10x better singing while standing as well. I'm better standing too, but aren't pub gigsa supposed to be playes from a bar stool??? :confused: :cool:

strat2

11-24-2005, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Which connection do you have? I use Flash .flv-video with progressive download (quasi-streaming) with default settings. Should work well on ISDN and better.

I have the stock video card that came with Windows XP.
My Windows Media 10 play usually works great , but site generated
video rarely works satisfactorily on my set up.
=
=

Bajazz

11-24-2005, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by strat2
I have the stock video card that came with Windows XP.
My Windows Media 10 play usually works great , but site generated
video rarely works satisfactorily on my set up.No, I meant internet connection. The site don't use media player or it's codecs at all, but the builtin .flv format of Macromedia Shockwave Flash.

strat2

11-28-2005, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
No, I meant internet connection. The site don't use media player or it's codecs at all, but the builtin .flv format of Macromedia Shockwave Flash.

Doh!
Sorry about that .
=
=

nickname009

12-03-2005, 01:30 AM

can somebody clarify all this info for me?
I sing/scream in a metal band.

I want to be able to sing confidently with a good, strong developed range. I also want my screams to sounds more aggressive with less push (and more raspier if that can be done). At the moment.

I'm currently taking lessons with a vocal teacher who specializes in SLS, he's teaching me to bridge my chest voice/headvoice etc.

Is this the route I want for my style? I am unsure of what would be better suited for singing/screaming metal!

strat2

12-05-2005, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by nickname009
can somebody clarify all this info for me?
I sing/scream in a metal band.

I want to be able to sing confidently with a good, strong developed range. I also want my screams to sounds more aggressive with less push (and more raspier if that can be done). At the moment.

I'm currently taking lessons with a vocal teacher who specializes in SLS, he's teaching me to bridge my chest voice/headvoice etc.

Is this the route I want for my style? I am unsure of what would be better suited for singing/screaming metal!

I never learned screams, hope someone that has that down will
comment.
=
=

Bajazz

12-05-2005, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by strat2
I never learned screams, hope someone that has that down will comment.I'm not sure what "screams" actually means. I bet you can scream...?

strat2

12-05-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I'm not sure what "screams" actually means. I bet you can scream...?

#########? :confused:
=
=

Bajazz

12-06-2005, 02:00 AM

OK, let me try to explain:

1. I've heard lots of people talking about screaming in rock singing, but I'm not actually sure what they mean. Is it the "WOOOOAAHHHH" in "Smoke on the water, immidiately after the refrain, or "OOOOOHHH- Living on a prayer"? What is it that you consider screaming.

2. When you say you never learned screams, do you really mean that you don't know how to scream? I'm talking about straightforward screaming here. "Hey! Get your *ss out of here you m*f*!!!!!!"

As I see it screams means different things to different persons. To some they mean good'ole screaming, to others they are sophisticated and difficult technique. I think most rock singing is hardly about technique, but if you use some technique you are more likely to wake up with a voice the day after.

Coverdale

12-06-2005, 12:47 PM

Hey guys!

I have been a little absent...but I'm here now, and I also want a Vocal Forum!

Bajazz, that scream in Smoke on The Water, I just call it falsetto screaming... I can do that with no big effort luckily... I guess it pays to sing Glenn Hughes's songs :D

The other one, on Bon Jovi's songs, is a bit harder for me, although I'm getting better at it... I've read a few books (Mark Baxter mainly) and that helped a LOT!

I also have a few vocal training CD's that I haven't started using, but I'll get them in my car so I can start practising

Cheers

AlienLogik

12-06-2005, 09:24 PM

i dunnon, sls is going to teach you not to push much, the safest way to get a good scream (im thinking the used or something like that) is going to take some friggin pushing, you can learn to do it with as little force as possible, it shouldnt feel like your trying to throw up, but it does take some force. SLS will teach you how to relax though, and thats primary when trying to make some violent sounds without blowing a gasket. I'd keep it up and try the screaming thing on your own, focusing on using as little pressure as possible to get your sound, and see where that gets ya.

yeah!! for the vocal forum.

Bajazz

12-07-2005, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Coverdale
The other one, on Bon Jovi's songs, is a bit harder for me, although I'm getting better at it... I've read a few books (Mark Baxter mainly) and that helped a LOT!Can you give some hints, cause the only way for me to reach the top notes on "Living on a prayer" is falsetto. What do you do?

ashivraj

12-07-2005, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Can you give some hints, cause the only way for me to reach the top notes on "Living on a prayer" is falsetto. What do you do?

I've found there's more than one way to approach this song (and similar ones)...

1) Sheer lung power. Get loud, and put some 'grit' into your falsetto, and lip up to the mic (i.e. get very close). Together, it gives body to your falsetto and makes it sound more powerful.

2) Placement in the set. If you do it when the crowd are into it, they'll carry it for you. Get to the chorus, sing one 'whoa', yell 'sing it!' and watch the magic of a group of drunk people (or people just enjoying themselves).

3) Change the notes. If you listen to the live versions of Prayer, JBJ always changes the last few notes and sings them down instead of up.

Hope this helps!

AS

Bajazz

12-07-2005, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by ashivraj

I've found there's more than one way to approach this song (and similar ones)...

1) Sheer lung power. Get loud, and put some 'grit' into your falsetto, and lip up to the mic (i.e. get very close). Together, it gives body to your falsetto and makes it sound more powerful.

2) Placement in the set. If you do it when the crowd are into it, they'll carry it for you. Get to the chorus, sing one 'whoa', yell 'sing it!' and watch the magic of a group of drunk people (or people just enjoying themselves).

3) Change the notes. If you listen to the live versions of Prayer, JBJ always changes the last few notes and sings them down instead of up.

Hope this helps!

AS Just what I thought, there was no magic trick! :(

Well, today I play it in Bm, but there's no bite in the verse. I'd might notch up to C#m or Dm, but I still miss the power from the low E string (I'm a acoustic guitar soloact)

I think I'll go for alternative 1 and get some power into my falsetto. Problem is I have a earset mic so I can't get lip into. The same problem I have with Johnny Cash low E's. Guess I'd better dial in some compression.

strat2

12-09-2005, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by Coverdale
Hey guys!

I have been a little absent...but I'm here now, and I also want a Vocal Forum!

Bajazz, that scream in Smoke on The Water, I just call it falsetto screaming... I can do that with no big effort luckily... I guess it pays to sing Glenn Hughes's songs :D

The other one, on Bon Jovi's songs, is a bit harder for me, although I'm getting better at it... I've read a few books (Mark Baxter mainly) and that helped a LOT!

I also have a few vocal training CD's that I haven't started using, but I'll get them in my car so I can start practising

Cheers

It was 17 some years ago when I was able to hit those notes, if I ever needed to
use falsetto for anything Rock I'd just stay home, but that's my take on what sounds
good in rock.

As I remember it there was alot of push sensation out the top of my head and
out over the eyes, the soft palette needs to be high out of the way., the throat
must be relaxed. There was a lot more air push to get a decent
sound (than is proper traditional technique) but it was the only way to get that
authentic sound.

What specifically has been of help to you on this from Mark Baxter and your other cd's ?

Good luck with it.

strat2

12-13-2005, 05:57 PM

:freak:

Whats your favorite style to sing ?

What's easiest for you to sing ?

What gets you the most chicks ?

:wave:
=
=

strat2

12-20-2005, 09:29 AM

Is there follow up to the Digitech Vocal performer Harmonizer ?

I see it's discontinued...

Next thing to it that I can find is the tc voice live.
=
=

aerorockjax

03-21-2006, 04:43 AM

Bump.

SAMMY

03-22-2006, 10:23 AM

I think a vocalist forum is one of the most blantantly missing parts of this place!!!WE NEED ONE!!!
Also - as for this thread , I have some experience and knowledge I can share with the more head and bridge voice singers (ie. LIKE Rob Halford , Freddie Mercury , PLant , you know "classic" screamers...this wave of modern vocal damaging "screaming " does nothing for me and isn't my own personal idea of vocalizing .)so....
To get started I think that singing in falsetto when practicing until "getting" how to "vowelize"(possible word I might have just invented!)and shape the tongue palate and throat for maximum projection and ring helps lay much of the ground work for a developed bridge voice(when you blend head and falsetto) to get the strong resonating , projected higher notes that ring and cut like say , a Steve Perry chorus note .It's my own humble opinion that this approach saves months perhaps years towards developing the upper registers and blended voices .Really I find that Falsetto when given a bit of projection and crispness"feels"internally almost exactly alike as when you are adding the head voice to "blend" it's the feeling of the "soaring " that U need to learn to control - the head voice is not usually the underdeveloped thing in a novices arsenal if they have been serious for any time at all 0 no usually I find it to be the breaks and of course learning to "balance " that blended voice and learning to "let" it project.While learning this the fledgling vocalist is vulnerable as it will usually be a fairly self conscious stifled thing at first - by working through the "feel" of it in a somewhat "hard" falsetto FIRST and "feeling " what to do to get the tone to either ring , be breathy rasp ect. the body is already used to doing what it will be doing at volume - and can be done softly enuff in the interim to avoid "dude! that sucks!!!you sound like king diamond on helium!!!" until ready to bring some head voice into the mix - at that point the body as a mechinism has the vowel shaping and palate situating down in muscle memory and adding the "body " of the head voice to it comes MUCH easier.
Probably the best tip I can say at this point is tofind who you are as a voice- imagine if Luther Vandross had thought that unless he could compete with Bruce Dickenson he wasn't very good?Think of what beauty the world would have missed out on...AND it's not really how high a note u hit - it's how high that note u hit is FOR U!!! a baritone can bring all the excitement and intensity to a note that is high FOR HIM as a tenor like say Halford brings to the same relative note to HIS reange for example - is a Joe Cocker high note any LESS exciting dynamic and thrilling as a Halford?Given the basic tone is going to be different of course but a baritone can bring all the excitement in his range that a tenor brings to his if he developes his instrument - accepting and realizing this frees you up to develpoe your OWN potential-COMPTETE with YOURSELF!!!and YOU"LL alwaya WIN!!!
I'm very exited to participate in thius thread and look eagerly forwards to learning and perhaps being able to give somerthing back also!GREAT IDEA!!!

strat2

03-23-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by aerorockjax
Bump.

Good timing aerorockjax,

I was also thinking about the Vocal Forum, wondering when
we'll get one...

:freak:
=
=

strat2

03-27-2006, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by SAMMY
I think a vocalist forum is one of the most blantantly missing parts of this place!!!WE NEED ONE!!!
Also - as for this thread , I have some experience and knowledge I can share with the more head and bridge voice singers (ie. LIKE Rob Halford , Freddie Mercury , PLant , you know "classic" screamers...this wave of modern vocal damaging "screaming " does nothing for me and isn't my own personal idea of vocalizing .)so....
To get started I think that singing in falsetto when practicing until "getting" how to "vowelize"(possible word I might have just invented!)and shape the tongue palate and throat for maximum projection and ring helps lay much of the ground work for a developed bridge voice(when you blend head and falsetto) to get the strong resonating , projected higher notes that ring and cut like say , a Steve Perry chorus note .It's my own humble opinion that this approach saves months perhaps years towards developing the upper registers and blended voices .Really I find that Falsetto when given a bit of projection and crispness"feels"internally almost exactly alike as when you are adding the head voice to "blend" it's the feeling of the "soaring " that U need to learn to control - the head voice is not usually the underdeveloped thing in a novices arsenal if they have been serious for any time at all 0 no usually I find it to be the breaks and of course learning to "balance " that blended voice and learning to "let" it project.While learning this the fledgling vocalist is vulnerable as it will usually be a fairly self conscious stifled thing at first - by working through the "feel" of it in a somewhat "hard" falsetto FIRST and "feeling " what to do to get the tone to either ring , be breathy rasp ect. the body is already used to doing what it will be doing at volume - and can be done softly enuff in the interim to avoid "dude! that sucks!!!you sound like king diamond on helium!!!" until ready to bring some head voice into the mix - at that point the body as a mechinism has the vowel shaping and palate situating down in muscle memory and adding the "body " of the head voice to it comes MUCH easier.
Probably the best tip I can say at this point is tofind who you are as a voice- imagine if Luther Vandross had thought that unless he could compete with Bruce Dickenson he wasn't very good?Think of what beauty the world would have missed out on...AND it's not really how high a note u hit - it's how high that note u hit is FOR U!!! a baritone can bring all the excitement and intensity to a note that is high FOR HIM as a tenor like say Halford brings to the same relative note to HIS reange for example - is a Joe Cocker high note any LESS exciting dynamic and thrilling as a Halford?Given the basic tone is going to be different of course but a baritone can bring all the excitement in his range that a tenor brings to his if he developes his instrument - accepting and realizing this frees you up to develpoe your OWN potential-COMPTETE with YOURSELF!!!and YOU"LL alwaya WIN!!!
I'm very exited to participate in thius thread and look eagerly forwards to learning and perhaps being able to give somerthing back also!GREAT IDEA!!!

Some good points Sammy,
:thu:
=
=

SAMMY

03-27-2006, 03:12 PM

Q.) How many vocalists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A.) Just one , to hold it while the rest of the world revolves around him/her...
:D
Hey , beats the ol' "bump" tho- don't it?

strat2

04-03-2006, 04:22 PM

:eek:

I'll start with a couple that come to mind :

Lou Gramm
David Coverdale
Rob Halford
Paul Rodgers
Ozzie

Intense energy from all, not counting Osborne.

Out of this group if I had just one favorite, I guess it
would be Gramm...
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/riverstrat/LouGramm.jpg

Mathias1979

04-12-2006, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by fastplant
I really don't understand why HC doesn't have a separate vocal forum. It's not like we're asking for a tuba forum. There are vocalists in pretty much every band that every member belongs in. Perhaps they don´t look at us singers as "real muscians"... ah well he/she is just the singer...I hate crap like that!!! :mad: The voice is just as hard to master as ANY other instrument...I think that anyone who thinks differently is just ignorant.

nickname009

04-15-2006, 11:50 PM

I have a question and I'm gonna keep bumping this thread till it gets answered

HOW does one, with a clear singing voice, make it crunchy/raspy (rock styles) Not screaming, but you know, just to make it husky like hetfield or something. Just so I don't sound so..non-tough. I know there's a technique, I don't know it nor do I know how to do it!

help! thx in advance!

nickname009

04-16-2006, 04:02 PM

bump

Mathias1979

04-16-2006, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by nickname009
I have a question and I'm gonna keep bumping this thread till it gets answered

HOW does one, with a clear singing voice, make it crunchy/raspy (rock styles) Not screaming, but you know, just to make it husky like hetfield or something. Just so I don't sound so..non-tough. I know there's a technique, I don't know it nor do I know how to do it!

help! thx in advance!

Have you had any singing lessons? If not I would recommend you getting a singing teacher right away, so you don´t damage your voice.
Making your voice raspy without damaging it CAN be done, it is an advanced techinique and it takes a lot of practice...If you are not familiar with the four functions of your voice(Belting/Overdrive/Curbing-mix/Falsetto) I would STRONGLY recommend you to look into that first. Good singing also depends on correct Breathing, correct use of your abdominal and back mucles and correct posture.

There are books about the subject and it´s better that you read it there, than me telling you how to do it, because I can not explain it thorough enough in this forum. I would need to stand in front of you, so I could see what you are doing...Therefore get vocalteacher and best a rytmical inspired one!

Remember if you due to incorrect use of your voice have damaged it, that damage can NEVER be undone, you can get the lumps on your vocalcords removed surgically, but the sound of your voice wil most likely never be as strong and clear again.

Peace:)

SAMMY

04-17-2006, 07:24 AM

nickname009

04-17-2006, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Mathias1979

Have you had any singing lessons?

Peace:)

I am currently taking lessons for SLS (speech level singing) techniques. Still in the middle of bridging. Thanks for the advice!

strat2

04-17-2006, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by SAMMY

http://www.thevoiceconnection.com/lesson704.html

That page has some sound advice from what I read.

Here's a cool link to another forum :

http://singing.eblah.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl

If your question isn't getting solved nickname009 ,
feel free to bump it along anytime, as you stated.

Solving your vocal questions will be of benefit to others as well.
=
=

chorbalan

04-30-2006, 12:08 PM

Hi, forgive me if this is a frequently asked question as I am new here. I have been in several bands as a guitar player, and I have quit the latest one, because I would like to form my own band and sing. I play mostly metal, but I am not looking to learn how to growl (I allready can). My problem is that I sing TERRIBLY off key. I can hear it, but I can't correct it. Now vocal lessons would be the obvious choice, but they I can't afford them because I am 16. What I am asking is: are there any ways I can bassically learn how to sing well on my own. Where should I start. I have tried recording myself and hearing how I sing, but I do not know how to improve and learn to sing in key. Any help will be appreciated greatly thanks.

strat2

04-30-2006, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by chorbalan
Hi, forgive me if this is a frequently asked question as I am new here. I have been in several bands as a guitar player, and I have quit the latest one, because I would like to form my own band and sing. I play mostly metal, but I am not looking to learn how to growl (I allready can). My problem is that I sing TERRIBLY off key. I can hear it, but I can't correct it. Now vocal lessons would be the obvious choice, but they I can't afford them because I am 16. What I am asking is: are there any ways I can bassically learn how to sing well on my own. Where should I start. I have tried recording myself and hearing how I sing, but I do not know how to improve and learn to sing in key. Any help will be appreciated greatly thanks.

Hey chorbalan,

I'm not a voice teacher by any stretch, I'll briefly comment but if you get serious about
singing at some point you will likely want to take some lessons.

For now, till someone else jumps in Google : 'Free online voice lessons' etc.

I started singing around your age with no lessons and had passable results.
Latter I took tons of lessons and they helped a bit.

If your throat hurts during after a session ,or you it's harder to sing the next
day or you can't sing as high as days before than stop.

If you are not tone deaf you have a chance at eventually nailing the melodies.
I've put literally thousands of hours into it and still can pick out slightly off key
notes on playback.

Start with songs you sing best and songs in your range (assume you know what I mean
with 'range').
Go over just one or two tunes at a time, sing them a thousand times till you can
listen to a playback and see that you've got it real close.
Since you play the guitar, you can also single note the melody a few notes at a time
and match your voice to them.

I don't know the shortcuts , I'm still improving and learning little by little.

Using sing bing ring thing etc , you'll feel the front roof area of your mouth take a certain shape,
(this works for some people and not as well for others), that shape can help you to focus
the placement of the singing forward and upward,generally the concept is having the notes
feel like they're coming out through your eyes.
You don't want to tighten up your throat at all, the 'ing' concept also helps take focus
away from the throat.
There's a million things to learn about breathing and balance...
Understand also, some can sing great with no lessons ever/ they are very rare but exist.
Of all I've learned, I wind up using only about 10% of, and trash the rest, you have to sort
out what works for your style and voice,LOL...

Good luck with it, ask all you want, that's what we're here for, hope someone else will
give you some links and help too.
Welcome to the forum.
=
=

chorbalan

04-30-2006, 09:28 PM

Thanks a lot, but could you just clarify what the "Sing,bing,thing" part means?

strat2

05-01-2006, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by chorbalan
Thanks a lot, but could you just clarify what the "Sing,bing,thing" part means?

When you say certain words your mouth takes
different shapes.
When you say the word 'Sing' the 'ing' part of the
word causes the roof of your mouth to take shape.

Humm 'inggggggg' , feel the spot right behind your upper
front teeth (front roof area) sort of bunch up .
It may seem subtle at first but there's a definite change.

Sing, bing, ring, all have ing in them , make up others too,
if you like.
The diff.,words containing ing should help you
learn to maintain 'ing' while singing all kinds of
words and phrases.
You can say 'sing' with no noise and feel the roof change.
When you get it down, you don't say 'ring' or 'sing'
before each line, you just attain and maintain the ing
sensation through out, as you sing a given line/phrase.

When you sing the very different words 'Love' , or
'thunder Struck' , maintain that ing sensation, see if you
don't notice how the feel of the execution is changed.

Don't try to nail the ing sensation in one day , try it a few
minutes each day, till yout mouth gets used to it.
This is a very tiny part of learning to sing , read up on breathing
for balance and support too.
Let me know if 'ing' is still not clear ...
Once you get it down let me/us know what else you're learning,
and if 'ing' is doing you any good.

=
=

strat2

05-09-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by chorbalan
Thanks a lot, but could you just clarify what the "Sing,bing,thing" part means?

Well ,

If my explaination still makes no sense , don't give up on singing.
Google around , there's tons of singing tips until you decide to spring for lessons.
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-11-2006, 06:10 PM

Hi, I just found this thread, and yeah, it would be nice to have a forum dedicated to vocals only. But anyway, this reply is for chorbalan regarding singing on pitch. I think of pitch as having 3 components, and all of them come together to create the tone/tone color you want. Here's the way I think of the 3 components:

1. The pitch you hear in your head BEFORE you sing it.

2. The pitch you generate with your vocal cords.

3. The pitch/tone resonance in your mouth, head, body.

Before you sing a note, you have to hear it in your head. And you have to hear it precisely. If you don't hear it, you won't sing it. The best thing any musician can do, regardless of the instrument, including voice, is ear training. There are quite a few downloadable ear training programs - just software you install on your PC. OR just sit with your other instrument - guitar, piano, etc. - and pick a note. Play it. Hear it in your head. Then sing it. (Without sliding into it.) Bingo. Ear training. Do this 10 minutes a day for 2 weeks. Your pitch WILL improve.

OK. The second part of pitch is what you generate with your vocal cords. Probably the most helpful approach here is two-fold. Keep your face, neck and throat relaxed and keep your larynx down. (No rock and roll faces. Save those for the stage!) Relax and swallow. Feel how your throat is kind of open and your larynx is relaxed and 'down.' (To feel the difference between a low and high larynx, guys, hum a low 'Johnny Cash' note. That's an open throat, low larynx. Then hum a high note in 'falsetto' or just imitate female speech. That's a tighter throat, high larynx.) With me? OK, hope so. What you want to do is teach your larynx to stay in a low (but not exagerated) position EVEN WHEN YOU ARE SINGING HIGH NOTES. Go back and listen to Robert Plant in his Zep days. Listen to those high wails. Those are open throat, low larynx tones. It takes practice, and this is the crux of the speech-level singing technique. It's also the foundation of classical training, but it isn't taught in the same way, which is why the two schools of thought clash.

The third part of pitch is the way you resonate the tone once you've begun creating it. There are as many theories about this as there are assholes in Washington, but you can figure out a lot of it on your own as you play around with it. This is what Strat2 is addressing and he has some good suggestions in this area. Your chest cavity, throat and skull are your 'resonators.' Most pitch problems happening at this stage happen because you are not 'giving the note enough room' in your head. You learn how to open your throat more, raise your soft palate higher, use your nasal cavities to resonate. As you mess with this stuff, you will find so many ways to shape and color notes that you will lose interest in trying to sound like someone else and you will begin to sound like yourself. That's a good thing!

If you happen upon video of Lena Horne singing, WATCH IT - I don't care if it's 'not your thing'. :) This last idea that I describe, of changing tone/pitch through resonance - she does a lot of that. She'll hold a note out and just wrinkle her nose and smile a bit more, or less and bend that freakin' note! If you don't know what you're watching, you just think she's playing to the camera, but she's really playing her instrument.

And if you have video of Janis Joplin, get past trying to figure out her rasp and watch her mouth when she sings an E vowel (Down on Me, Me and Bobby McGee, etc.) You'll see her push her upper lip into a very unique shape that allows her to sing E vowels on pitch. If you generate as much volume as she does and then go for that vowel with a wide, flat smile (as is your natural instinct) you will likely lose pitch. If you watch her, she can show you the best way to pull it off on pitch.

Sorry this is so long-winded. I really hope this helps some. All the BEST of luck.

strat2

05-14-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Hi, I just found this thread, and yeah, it would be nice to have a forum dedicated to vocals only. But anyway, this reply is for chorbalan regarding singing on pitch. I think of pitch as having 3 components, and all of them come together to create the tone/tone color you want. Here's the way I think of the 3 components:

1. The pitch you hear in your head BEFORE you sing it.

2. The pitch you generate with your vocal cords.

3. The pitch/tone resonance in your mouth, head, body.
...

Great Post SoulHitchHiker ,
I'm sure others will enjoy it too.
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-14-2006, 06:06 PM

Thanks :) Hope so. I've learned all this stuff the hard way, as most of us have, so hopefully it will help some folks get through a few stumbling points more quickly.

strat2

05-14-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Thanks :) Hope so. I've learned all this stuff the hard way, as most of us have, so hopefully it will help some folks get through a few stumbling points more quickly.

Ha Ha Ha-- Yes don't I know at least 'all' the stumbling blocks,
just wish I had the answers.:eek:

Lucky for me my personal vocal puzzle is finally getting in line
after 30+ years of hit and miss, Lol...

=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-14-2006, 09:18 PM

I have this page on my website that talks about different training materials I've used, and I talk about the voice and how it compares to other instruments.
Basically what I say is that your voice is an internal, fretless instrument and that is what makes it so difficult to figure out. With an instrument like guitar, piano, whatever, you can learn where to put your hands in order to make sound by watching someone else. And you have frets or keys to keep you on pitch.
With your voice, everything is internal AND fretless!! So if you are having trouble figuring it out, it's easy to get frustrated until you begin to understand the actual physiology of the voice, and match that with techniques that work with, and not against that physiology. Plus a good bit of basic ear training...
Too many people - even inside the music business - believe that great singers are born and that's that, and worse, that if you aren't great, you can never BE great. Bullshit. For example, I just recently read that Robert Plant's mother was an opera singer (or some such - I can't remember in detail). Regardless, you think he didn't learn how to develop his pipes early on?? I've never seen an article about Zep that actually addresses his development as a singer, but we know all about the development of the other guys.
Perhaps singers encourage this as part of their mystique, I don't know, but I believe it works against us in the end. So I say WORK. WORK YOUR BUTT OFF. And share what you find. No one else can be a threat to you even if they know everything that you know, because your voice or mine isn't the same as the next person's.
But that's my opinion......... :)

strat2

05-16-2006, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
I have this page on my website that talks about different training materials I've used, and I talk about the voice and how it compares to other instruments.
Basically what I say is that your voice is an internal, fretless instrument and that is what makes it so difficult to figure out. With an instrument like guitar, piano, whatever, you can learn where to put your hands in order to make sound by watching someone else. And you have frets or keys to keep you on pitch.
With your voice, everything is internal AND fretless!! So if you are having trouble figuring it out, it's easy to get frustrated until you begin to understand the actual physiology of the voice, and match that with techniques that work with, and not against that physiology. Plus a good bit of basic ear training...
Too many people - even inside the music business - believe that great singers are born and that's that, and worse, that if you aren't great, you can never BE great. Bullshit. For example, I just recently read that Robert Plant's mother was an opera singer (or some such - I can't remember in detail). Regardless, you think he didn't learn how to develop his pipes early on?? I've never seen an article about Zep that actually addresses his development as a singer, but we know all about the development of the other guys.
Perhaps singers encourage this as part of their mystique, I don't know, but I believe it works against us in the end. So I say WORK. WORK YOUR BUTT OFF. And share what you find. No one else can be a threat to you even if they know everything that you know, because your voice or mine isn't the same as the next person's.
But that's my opinion......... :)

Yes very tough to figure out, and so personalized.
We need to study all techniques we can get ahold
of and then there is a foundation to go from.

There of course are exceptions ('natural singers')
I understand why in my mind, but that's not important, most anyone can
get a great grasp of singing well if they are willing to spend
huge amounts of time and patience.

If it's not against the rules and you are inclined, why don't you
put up a link to your website.

Also I'm going to qoute you here on a post you left on another
thread, I think it'll be usefull to those comming to the
'vocal forum'.
I'll delete if you don't want it here.
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-16-2006, 07:39 PM

:) You can quote me all you want. At least no one will come up after 'the gig' and say, hey, the band's great but we can't hear your vocals........... I know I'm not the only one to get that one, but that's for yet another thread, no doubt!

My site is www.soulhitchhiker.com. The vocal info is in the Gear section. I know. Odd, but that seemed to be the best place for it.

strat2

05-16-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote from:SoulHitchHiker

... I got this from one of Roger Love's books and it immediately helped me (Mark Baxter also goes over this same concept). So here goes.
When you think of chest voice and head voice, you think of them as being 'stacked' low to high, right? In other words, you think of the lower notes being generated in an lower place in your throat than the high notes. So when you go for a high note, everything goes up - you can feel your throat tighten, your eyebrows raise, stress level goes up - am I gonna hit this note? Right? OK.
But actually your vocal cords (or folds, whatever) run horizontally, NOT vertically. So think of them as a zipper. Yes, that's right. A zipper that zips from the front of your throat to the back - horizontally. So it's completely open for the lowest notes you sing, and it gradually zips closed (toward the back of your throat) as you sing higher notes.
Do a siren - use an 'AH' and start on a very low note. Sing AH as you slide up into your head voice and back down. While you're doing that, think of the zipper slowly zipping almost shut as you go up the scale, and then slowly zipping open as you come back down.
Thinking of this image, along with learning how to keep your larynx in a low position, will help you guys get a fuller, richer head voice, and will help you connect chest and head.
Hope this helps. SoulHitchHiker
=============================================

Interesting,SoulHitchHiker
So much of technique is a matter of variations of feelings and conceptual,
applications.
Someone lost in the concept of transferring from one register to
another may find this works for them .
I haven't tried it, I imagine it'll work for a lot of singers.

=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-16-2006, 08:13 PM

Yup. There are tons of materials available - some are completely useless, but most have some merit. What I've realized is that a lot of these materials, and most voice coaches are saying the same sorts of things, but in different ways. So you just have to sort of plug away until you find what makes sense to you. Basically I've synthesized techniques from quite a few sources to come up with a strategy that works for me.
What really cracks me up is the friction between classical and pop/rock voice coaches. Because they are basically teaching toward the same general goals - solid technique, good tone - but boy do they have at it with each other! I'm certainly not saying that classical and pop are the same thing. Absolutely not. But you're using the same instrument for both, so there's a great deal of crossover. Seems silly to fight it. But hey, rock on! Right? :)

strat2

05-17-2006, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Yup. There are tons of materials available - some are completely useless, but most have some merit. What I've realized is that a lot of these materials, and most voice coaches are saying the same sorts of things, but in different ways. So you just have to sort of plug away until you find what makes sense to you. Basically I've synthesized techniques from quite a few sources to come up with a strategy that works for me.
What really cracks me up is the friction between classical and pop/rock voice coaches. Because they are basically teaching toward the same general goals - solid technique, good tone - but boy do they have at it with each other! I'm certainly not saying that classical and pop are the same thing. Absolutely not. But you're using the same instrument for both, so there's a great deal of crossover. Seems silly to fight it. But hey, rock on! Right? :)

Yes Rock on, to each his own they say.

Depends on what the singer is looking for .
I'm into tone, balance,resonance.But I sure don't want to push
that on someone that's after an Axle Rose sound.
(well I'm not saying he doesn't have a great sound though either
I think it's excellent).
The only warning I have is : if a
singer is loosing range and getting hoarse etc,. more research is
needed, like right away, unless of course they're looking for a
short flash career , which is ok too if that's all they want.

I wonder what you think about this :
I had a flash today about 'registers' (understanding, I only study
voice when I need to get over personal hurdles), it's never
been laid out , the why, what fors for me , I think I figured it out.
lets say I'm singing middle A and down below middle C
,the resonance coupling (if that term works) will occur generously
only in say my deep resonating chambers given
my range, body etc.
In other words a high note can't excite the lower chambers as well as they might interact with certain head cavities.
I'm not explaining it well, but this aspect also throws a wrench
in the vocal equation for each individual, as we all have
similarities but when it comes to a great instrument the sound is
the result of the sum of all components, which vary in each of us.
Luckily if we fiddle with variations we can overcome
obstacles by altering placement...
Like I said ,this isn't laid out well ,just some random thoughts.
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

05-17-2006, 08:21 PM

To the first part, you're right. Ax-baby sounds great - in a gargling with razor blades and swallowing nail files sort of way - and I LOVE it! Roy Orbison sounds great too - in that operatic way that pop music only found a mega-profitable use for when Freddie Mercury hit the scene. So yes, the best thing is to follow the sound of your own voice instead of trying to sound like someone else, but regardless of what you choose, if you're coughing up blood or losing your voice during/after gigs, you might want to reconsider what you're doing...

OK. Part 2: resonance. The last part of what you say is absolutely true. Each voice carries its own qualities just like acoustic guitars do. (Yes so do electrics, but I'm going for the chamber resonance idea here.) As far as resonances thru the range, there are a couple resources that talk about capturing chest resonance even in head voice (at least that's my understanding of their theories.)
One is Robert Gansert who developed the Gan-Tone method. Personally, I haven't been able to trudge through his entire book to get to what the method actually entails, but his idea is that your ENTIRE body is always your resonating chamber no matter where you are in your vocal register. Same idea as an acoustic guitar. The tones resonate throughout the instrument regardless.
The other is Breck Alan: The Art of Body Singing. His material has you resonating tones in different parts of your body (chest/head) so you can hear what they sound like and learn to use these as tone colors. Kind of a cool idea.
But you are right when you say that in mid-voice or head you aren't going to get that deep chest resonance, but you have all these other smaller cavities that can now contribute to your tone, so yes, the tone does change, but you should still be able to pull some chest into it for a subtle foundation.
With higher notes, both in your upper chest voice (below your break) and in lower head voice (above your break) if you really seat your larynx and 'think chest' as you create the tone, it will be richer and 'chestier.' Another thing that can help get a fuller tone as you sing higher, is to drop your jaw to create more space for the tone to develop in. But always seat that larynx and remember the 'zipper' image and you'll find that simplifies the process of creating the tone. Once you get the hang of it, you won't stress about how/if you're going to hit that note every time. It will just be there.
Another thing I do is when I'm working a song out and it has parts that venture into my break, I try them several different ways. I try hitting those notes from head, from chest, I try hitting at different volumes with different effects - gritty, smooth, breathy, thick, drag the vowel, don't drag the vowel, etc. So I experiment with all the options I can think of that are appropriate for the song, and then I figure out which works the best for me.
Right now I'm battling with "Tears of a Clown." It's in D and a key change is not an option for reasons I have no control over. The fact that it's in D, and the lead melody line is actually a harmony, not the 'root' puts the melody slam in the middle of my break. $&%&%^#* So I am experimenting BIG TIME with this bugger to get it to sound good and to not do a 'chick imitation of Smokey Robinson.'
Two things I have to remember are keeping my larynx seated, and keeping the tone placement forward 'in the mask.' That's the tough part b/c there are so many AH vowels in the damn song and those tend to slide backwards out of the mask if you aren't paying attention.
Anyway, I don't know if I stayed on track here or not, but hopefully something I've said makes sense! :)

strat2

05-18-2006, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
To the first part, you're right. Ax-baby sounds great - in a gargling with razor blades and swallowing nail files sort of way - and I LOVE it! Roy Orbison sounds great too - in that operatic way that pop music only found a mega-profitable use for when Freddie Mercury hit the scene. So yes, the best thing is to follow the sound of your own voice instead of trying to sound like someone else, but regardless of what you choose, if you're coughing up blood or losing your voice during/after gigs, you might want to reconsider what you're doing...

Classic !
You have the option of doing a song in a preset key...
It's rare (very) that I don't transpose a tune to suit my range
which is fairly narrow, I don't have that option LOL.

Funny too, ah vowels are my friend, they haven't
been in the past,just to illustrate different instruments,
and the fact that with altered technique I could loose
my 'ah' ease next month and acquire different strengths.

I've never tried Tears of a Clown, I assure you it won't
be in D unless you mean an octave down (laughs).
Probably the closest song to that, I've worked on is :
'La La La La La means I love you' ,interesting choice for
me as mostly I do Country , but I love some of the classics
occasionally like 'Unforgettable etc...

I'll comment later on some of the other interesting
points you've just covered.

I signed up for a competition, and will know week if I'll be in it.
So I'm in a little bit of a rut right now , reluctant to venture
far from my established routine.
I don't know if you've noticed this for yourself , but here's what
happens to me sometimes:
I'll get a great foundation set up for singing a particular tune
or set of tunes, then start applying variations and a week latter
forget the original set up , and find I've ruined and lost the
ideas for that set up , it can be frustrating.
Also , here's what kills me on range sometimes I think.
I can start getting some decent sounds for higher registers
but using different muscles etc in dif ways I'll find relaxing
to get back depth is difficult.

I'm working on a song for a Competition,
'I can Love you like that' (John Michael Montgomery)
I do it one full step down, and the range is still
an issue, further down looses the feel of the tune.
It's too late for much experimenting, I'll choose another song
if I don't sort it out in time.
I get 7 minutes, probably want to include the new George Strait
cover of (Haggard's) 'Seashores of ole Mexico'.(funny, I think
they're calling it 'Old' while it probably should be 'Ole',guess I
didn't write the tune. )
==============================================

:freak: General note for all Singers :

For the last couple years , I've started making notes on scratch
pads through my practices/rehearsals.
I'll even draw (crude) pictures of my mouth face etc.,
arrows and what ever,with narratives explaining what I'm doing
or sometimes more accurately ,what it feels like.
I'll date them and cross compare as they evolve day to day.
This has been a great benefit to me.
For most styles, half the set up is learning to relax the the throat
which can take a great deal of effort (laughs)...

:eek:

SoulHitchHiker

05-18-2006, 07:33 AM

I don't mind much having this one song 'dictated' to me. I look at it as a challenge b/c I gotta get it right. No way 'round it. And I can - they're just notes - I just have to figure out the best approach to them. But it IS work - I can't just start singing the darn thing and have it come out good - it will definitely take some planning, but once I get it, I'll have it...
When you talk about your set up for a song, do you mean how you approach it vocally? I think that's what you mean, so I'll go with that. I used to have trouble being able to replicate a performance, but now I have less trouble. I think that is for a few reasons. First, I'm just far more confident in myself overall. Another thing that helped was all the stuff I've shared here. By accident I found Seth Riggs' and Roger Love's materials, and once I began to understand the physiological aspect of singing, I gained range, tone and consistency. The happy by-product of that is that I really know my instrument, so each time I sing a song it may sound a bit different, but most of the time it's at an acceptable level - when it's not, there are generally extenuating circumstances.
So my suggestion would be to move away from the idea that you will approach a song the same way every time (except to say that you will use the best techniques you can for the song). So many factors affect the way you are going to sing a song at a given moment. Given that, I'd say get very comfortable with your instrument and then let it do what it can.
All the best with the competition! I hope you are able to participate. It will be a really good test to see if you are able to relax and let the song happen. I think you will. :) And you're right, I wouldn't venture too far from what you normally do.

SAMMY

05-18-2006, 02:53 PM

Wow , lot's of good pointers...
Any vocal thread followers follow American Idol? I just have to say ELLIOT WAS ROBBED!!!

SoulHitchHiker

05-18-2006, 04:46 PM

:) I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't have cable or satellite TV. All I get is PBS... Keeps me from watching too much TV! But I have seen Am. Idol a couple times when I've been out. It kinda cracks me up b/c once it gets narrowed down to the um, better singers, you can tell they've been coached to go for the power note. You can actually SEE them getting ready for their BIG note. Take that note out of the song and there ain't much left. IMHO. But it is fun to watch.........

strat2

05-18-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
I don't mind much having this one song 'dictated' to me. I look at it as a challenge b/c I gotta get it right. No way 'round it. And I can - they're just notes - I just have to figure out the best approach to them. But it IS work - I can't just start singing the darn thing and have it come out good - it will definitely take some planning, but once I get it, I'll have it...
When you talk about your set up for a song, do you mean how you approach it vocally? ...

Yes ,
Sorry I could have spelled that one out.
I use that 'set up' to mean how I start my breath,
vowels I'm thinking of, and just everything about starting
each song and/or phrase.
I've got it down finally this year for the bulk of what I do.
I'm not sophisticated to the point of setting up differently for
each tune, at this point I'm just tikled to death that I can finally
do some tunes well with no surprises, anytime, that's a huge
hurdle for me, that I have tackled.
As time allows I'll push further I think.

strat2

05-23-2006, 09:48 AM

Newer & Intermediate Singers,

Just a note to share obstacles that kept me from
discovering the root of my personal singing stability.
In other words singing at my best was hit and miss
till I sorted all this out.

Water intake , never an issue. I drank excessive amounts in pursuit of
Singing well, no help.
Breathing technique not and issue, I learned to breath like an opera singer,
no help.
Avoiding meals before singing, no help.
Warming up. No help.

Concentrating on the above items were just a smoke screens that kept me
from discovering the root of my on again off again vocal abilities.

Learning to relax jaw, throat, and open up resonating cavities were my true
key defining moments. I suggest finding teachers and online lessons
that cover the onset of breath, vowel tricks,sensations,
(including yawns ,sneezes etc.).

The voice is an illusive instrument.

At this point I now make sure to hydrate properly, but that would be to no avail,
till I discovered those 'key defining moments'.
Same with Breathing,warming up etc...

I was over breathing for a long time, accomplishing nothing but tensing up
including areas that should not be tense.

Once I learned to relax and resonate I reintroduced breathing techniques to really add to
the overall sound and balance.
You can sometimes find that you are singing great for a time , and then through
certain daily events/occurrences the voice will seem to loose its balance and tone,
for me those events would be just the illusiveness of the whole instrument , and changes that
will occur during the day or days.

My pursuit has been over the years to:

Find my natural range.
Find a style I could sing with predictability.
Be able to open my mouth any time and produce a planned sound.

The above are now here, in my case it was finding that 'resonating balance'.
Once I learned to resonate and maintain that resonance I could return to
the other axioms and re integrate them.

Again , I suggest keeping notes on your progress.

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:12 AM

I'm trying to record Karaoke music for people but the vocalist are pitchy sharp or flat or off key what can i say to them or help GUIDE them better any hints please?

Or what to pratice to make them better at hitting the notes solid?

What does it mean when the vocalist is singing sharp or flat or out of key on some of the notes how can i correct this please with out software,plug ins how can i coach them better to hit the notes please any hints?

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:14 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:15 AM

Karaoke vocals pitches and keys

m trying to record Karaoke music for people but the vocalist are pitchy sharp or flat or off key what can i say to them or help GUIDE them better any hints please?

Or what to pratice to make them better at hitting the notes solid?

What does it mean when the vocalist is singing sharp or flat or out of key on some of the notes how can i correct this please with out software,plug ins how can i coach them better to hit the notes please any hints?

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 12:17 AM

Bajazz

05-24-2006, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Walters9515
I'm trying to record Karaoke music for people but the vocalist are pitchy sharp or flat or off key what can i say to them or help GUIDE them better any hints please?

Or what to pratice to make them better at hitting the notes solid?

What does it mean when the vocalist is singing sharp or flat or out of key on some of the notes how can i correct this please with out software,plug ins how can i coach them better to hit the notes please any hints? Have you tried the PS2 game Singstar? I've used it and it's awesome on pitch target practice. Especially when you come to difficulty hard.

fastplant

05-24-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Have you tried the PS2 game Singstar? I've used it and it's awesome on pitch target practice. Especially when you come to difficulty hard.

I may have to get this.

SoulHitchHiker

05-24-2006, 09:39 PM

I've read quite a few recording engineers say that if a singer is sharp, generally their headphone mix is too loud. You might just try dialing down the volume in the headphones and see if it helps.

Otherwise, in one of my earlier posts on this thread I talk about the three factors that influence tone & pitch. For Karaoke singers, I would say that some very elementary ear training would help a great deal. Most likely, these singers are used to being 'buried' in the music and don't really hear themselves clearly, so they are matching pitch in a very general way. (This also happens to singers who have only sung with live bands, but never done studio work.) They need to be able to match pitch EXACTLY when they are recording, or you have to buy an auto-tuner and charge them more... :)

What I would suggest is this: if the problem is with just a few notes, take one problem spot at a time. Play the note that's most off pitch on a guitar or keyboard. (Play a clean tone... the more effects you have on a note, the harder it is to determine pitch.) Have the singer sing that note until he can match the pitch exactly without sliding into it. Ideally, play the note, let the singer hear the note in his head and THEN sing it b/c that's what he has to do when he records. Once you get the note down, play the melodic phrase around the note and have the singer match that. Now you have the note in context. Once the singer has this down, go to the next problem area.

If the problem is chronic throughout the song, any number of things could be going on. Try the pitch matching on a particularly bad spot and see if there is overall improvement. If so, keep working at it, or tell the singer to go away and work at it and then come back. If there is no improvement, then you and the singer have to decide what the next course of action is b/c the person is obviously not ready to record.

If you are working with a female singer, she may be having pitch problems if she is at the end of her hormonal cycle just before her period. This might be a touchy subject to broach, but hey, if you didn't already know that PMS affects the voice, well, now you do. It's just grand being a chick...

All the best!

Walters9515

05-24-2006, 10:05 PM

thanks for the help

i wish the Karaoke CD-G had a "Piano Guide track" so in the head phone mix the singer can hear the Piano guide notes of the vocal melody and can hit them solid instead of guessing u know what i mean?

SoulHitchHiker

05-25-2006, 07:28 AM

Yup. It's tough when you don't have a pitch reference, but it can be done if your singer has good ears and knows the song well. One thing I've run up against and I don't know if it's still done, but there were times when engineers/producers would change the speed of a track, usually increase it, to 'liven it up' a bit. Tom Dowd did this on Bell Bottom Blues (Layla Sessions - Derek & the Dominoes). Which is great until you learn the song from the record and then try to sing it without the record! The song is in the key of G-plus... As in, it WAS in G, but the sped-up version is microtonally higher than G. Caused a few laughs between me and my guitar player as I re-found my start note! The sad side effect of this is that I really can't listen to the original as long as that song is in my set list b/c I'm afraid I'll lose my pitch bearings if I do!
So I don't know if this is still done now b/c with ProTools, it's my understanding that you can change the tempo of a song without affecting the pitch. But if you are using older songs (pre-ProTools), you might want to eliminate this as a factor!

Walters9515

05-25-2006, 02:52 PM

Thanks for the help on this

Singing in minor modes

What songs are good to Practice singing in minor modes?

I'm looking for songs Pop/rock anything that has minor scales for the vocal melody harmonic/melodic minor

What broadway or other music styles use minor scales or minor melodys for vocal lines so i can help singers and vocalist to practice singing minor vocal lines and minor modes chord changes please?

SoulHitchHiker

05-25-2006, 08:11 PM

I don't know of anything right off the bat. I am assuming you are thinking of something more sophisticated than simply singing in a minor key??
If you really want to train a singer on minor modes, one way to do it is to simply put some vocal exercises together that use those scales. That way the singer gets used to going to those patterns. Just like an instrumental musician has to learn scales...
I'm not much help here because I work mostly in rock, so it's mostly major keys using relative minor chords for color. Occasionally you'll get a song in a minor key, but I don't think that's what you're after. Correct me if I'm not understanding your question.

Walters9515

05-25-2006, 09:08 PM

yes your on the same page

most rock doesn't use diminished, harmonic, melodic minor phrases or vocal melodies which im after like Yngwie mainsteen does but doing it on vocals

SoulHitchHiker

05-26-2006, 07:15 AM

Actually, I asked a friend about this before I posted my reply, and he said basically the same thing. If this is for YOU, then, odd as it sounds, I'd learn to sing Yngvie's guitar lines. OR like I suggested, put some vocal exercises together built around these specific scales.

On another track, but still really good ear training is to work with ragas. There are books available that break them down and show the scales being used. I bring this up because it may be that you have to go to 'world music' to find pieces that contain the structures you are after. Generally speaking, American-roots-dominated Western music simply isn't structured around minors in the way you are looking for pieces of music to be structured.

Let me know what you end up doing. It's always a challenge to try and do something different, and it's interesting to learn how people find their way through that challenge.

SAMMY

05-29-2006, 11:49 AM

:thu:

SoulHitchHiker

06-01-2006, 01:38 PM

Bump. Hope all had a great Memorial Day weekend. :)

SoulHitchHiker

06-15-2006, 08:40 PM

OK, where is everbody? Strat2 had some potentially cool stuff going on, Walters9515 was trying to work out how to sing like Yngwie plays. Soooooooooooo what's up guys?? Spill.

strat2

06-16-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
OK, where is everbody? Strat2 had some potentially cool stuff going on, Walters9515 was trying to work out how to sing like Yngwie plays. Soooooooooooo what's up guys?? Spill.

Hey SoulHitchHiker,

Isn't that the story of my life or what ...
My teachers always said I had potential, but lacked
when it came to application.

Some of our members may have just quit singing alltogether
I know I have from time to time out of frustration.lol

Here's another thing I've noticed about singing :
You can find some techniques and nuances to your overall
technique that have you singing like a bird, come to find
out latter that what you thought you were doing actually
masked another physical action that was taking place
as a reaction of that action.
This can add greatly to vocal frustrations...

Down the road I think we should have a 'clip sticky' so we can
discuss members techniques and help troubleshoot where
applicable.

Hope all is well your way.

:thu:

strat2

06-20-2006, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Walters9515
Karaoke vocals pitches and keys

m trying to record Karaoke music for people but the vocalist are pitchy sharp or flat or off key what can i say to them or help GUIDE them better any hints please?

Or what to pratice to make them better at hitting the notes solid?

What does it mean when the vocalist is singing sharp or flat or out of key on some of the notes how can i correct this please with out software,plug ins how can i coach them better to hit the notes please any hints?

There may be some sofware out there as mentioned earlier that
works great, I havn't used them.

My favorite singing quote is from Randy Travis :

"...singing bad is easy."

:eek:

So very true.

The cure I took to interval mastery (still trying...) is taking each
phrase of a song line by line as well as word by word and I'd
practice the intervals in each till I could sing them perfectly
with and without music.
In a live performance you need to be able to hear the chord
changes of the song as well as your own voice.
Doing scales is good too, but for me the best way was/is
taking the tunes/genre I like to sing and study those intervals,
and study those intervals, and study........
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

06-20-2006, 08:00 AM

Yes, you have to get the melody into your head and into your voice. If you can't 'hear' the melody in your head, your voice doesn't know where to go, and if your cords aren't trained and limber, even if you hear the pitches in your head, you won't necessarily be able to reproduce them. That said, going over and over intervals specific to a song might be 'overtraining.' And frustrating because what you are telling yourself (implicitly) is that you have to learn each song as a discrete piece, and what you learn singing one doesn't transfer to any other song. Of course that is an extreme, and I know that's not your intention, but that is what you might be setting yourself up for.

As you can tell from my other posts, and from my website (soulhitchhiker.com) I am a big advocate of learning HOW your voice works. THAT is consistent across any piece of music, any style or genre. Combine that with some basic ear training, and you won't believe how much your singing will improve, literally overnight.

Here's another trick I've used and it works really well for me. I practice difficult songs/passages silently. As in, I think through the part in my head. No need to 'mouth' the words, just think them - sing the passage silently to yourself. This does several things. First, it forces you to 'hear' the song in your head, which helps you nail pitch. Second, if you know what your voice is supposed to do in the tougher parts, you can coach yourself through those passages in your mind. (I know this sounds flaky, but try it. It works.) The advantage of doing this is twofold. Your cords do move slightly even when you are thinking of speaking or singing, so you are training them to move properly. AND because you are imagining yourself singing the part CORRECTLY, you are succeeding at it. So you have also trained your mind into succeeding at the difficult passage. Apply even more precision to the mental exercise than you would if you were singing, because you CAN. You will shock yourself with the results.

Remember I said I was working on Tears of a Clown? It sits right in my break and a key change wasn't possible. Well, last week in rehearsal I NAILED it, and I didn't sing the song at all for weeks. What did I do? Just what I described above. I wasn't going to frustrate myself or tire my voice out by singing it out loud, so I thought through the song over and over, paying close attention to how it was supposed to feel. Low larynx, open throat, support, support, support. In rehearsal, the guitar player called the song and I just did it. Perfectly.

Of COURSE I do all the other things. Scales, ear training, singing, breath support. And I would never recommend substituting mental work for an actual vocal warmup before performing, BUT if you are in a situation where you need to rehearse and you can't sing out loud because your voice is tired or injured, because you live in an apartment with paper walls (me), or you are in a hotel room, whatever the reason, mental rehearsal is nearly as effective as actual physical performance if you do it properly.

strat2

06-21-2006, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Yes, you have to get the melody into your head and into your voice. If you can't 'hear' the melody in your head, your voice doesn't know where to go, and if your cords aren't trained and limber, even if you hear the pitches in your head, you won't necessarily be able to reproduce them. That said, going over and over intervals specific to a song might be 'overtraining.' And frustrating because what you are telling yourself (implicitly) is that you have to learn each song as a discrete piece, and what you learn singing one doesn't transfer to any other song. Of course that is an extreme, and I know that's not your intention, but that is what you might be setting yourself up for.

As you can tell from my other posts, and from my website (soulhitchhiker.com) I am a big advocate of learning HOW your voice works. THAT is consistent across any piece of music, any style or genre. Combine that with some basic ear training, and you won't believe how much your singing will improve, literally overnight.

Here's another trick I've used and it works really well for me. I practice difficult songs/passages silently. As in, I think through the part in my head. No need to 'mouth' the words, just think them - sing the passage silently to yourself. This does several things. First, it forces you to 'hear' the song in your head, which helps you nail pitch. Second, if you know what your voice is supposed to do in the tougher parts, you can coach yourself through those passages in your mind. (I know this sounds flaky, but try it. It works.) The advantage of doing this is twofold. Your cords do move slightly even when you are thinking of speaking or singing, so you are training them to move properly. AND because you are imagining yourself singing the part CORRECTLY, you are succeeding at it. So you have also trained your mind into succeeding at the difficult passage. Apply even more precision to the mental exercise than you would if you were singing, because you CAN. You will shock yourself with the results.

Remember I said I was working on Tears of a Clown? It sits right in my break and a key change wasn't possible. Well, last week in rehearsal I NAILED it, and I didn't sing the song at all for weeks. What did I do? Just what I described above. I wasn't going to frustrate myself or tire my voice out by singing it out loud, so I thought through the song over and over, paying close attention to how it was supposed to feel. Low larynx, open throat, support, support, support. In rehearsal, the guitar player called the song and I just did it. Perfectly.

Of COURSE I do all the other things. Scales, ear training, singing, breath support. And I would never recommend substituting mental work for an actual vocal warmup before performing, BUT if you are in a situation where you need to rehearse and you can't sing out loud because your voice is tired or injured, because you live in an apartment with paper walls (me), or you are in a hotel room, whatever the reason, mental rehearsal is nearly as effective as actual physical performance if you do it properly.

Yes good points,

Matering intervals is a mental exersise and, to a great
extent more so than the physical act itself.

I'll mentaly run through a phrase in normal speed till I get it,
then start playing with super fast speeds down to very slow
speed.
I find that once I can handle a scale/phrase at all speeds,
I have less chance of being thrown off balance by various
distractions during a performance/rehearsal.

Glad 'Tears of a Clown" is working out for you.

I got a couple extra weeks to work on the upper end of
my range, I need one and a half step to be able to sing
a couple tunes that are not good for me in any other keys.
I can hit the note ok, but I need to try to get it
so it's as easy (or sounds easy) as the rest of the tune
notes.
Similar I guess to what you're going through with that one tune,
with the exception that this new range puts me in a register
that might be better for all the power notes for me.
I'll keep on it for another 8 days or so and back off if I can't
tear it up.
I used to work (years ago) at nailing notes a step above my
trouble notes till I could get it.
We'll see...
Beer thirty in 11 minutes --- 10 9 8 7..........
:freak:
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

06-26-2006, 04:43 PM

Do you mean the notes are in your break, and you need to stretch 1-1/2 steps to reach the notes from your chest voice? If so, practice the siren exercise - I think I described it in an earlier post. This will do two things for you. It will stretch your chest voice up into your head voice, which is what you are looking for, AND it will help you keep your larynx low and relaxed (if you do it right) as you gradually progress through your chest and into your head voice. Good luck! :)

strat2

06-27-2006, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Do you mean the notes are in your break, and you need to stretch 1-1/2 steps to reach the notes from your chest voice? If so, practice the siren exercise - I think I described it in an earlier post. This will do two things for you. It will stretch your chest voice up into your head voice, which is what you are looking for, AND it will help you keep your larynx low and relaxed (if you do it right) as you gradually progress through your chest and into your head voice. Good luck! :)

I've never really gotten a good grasp of the difference between
head and chest voice, but I think most of what I'm doing lately
is all head voice.
Stuff I mostly did earlier this year and last year were
Lower keyed tunes and I guess most of that was in my chest
voice.
6 days on the road(chorus would break into head voice)
Just good ol boys (" ")
Don't take your guns to town (all chest)

The tunes I'm working on this month are past my break
I think and it's mostly all head voice for me for some reason it
seems to be easier for me to keep my voice reliable while
I'm sticking with tunes above my break, if that makes any sense.
It seems to force me to concentrate on and keep head passages
open.

You're talking about a lite siren as you'd also use in warming up
or a heavier one?
This I assume is done as a humming siren...
How much is too much?
I tend to way over train. (I know that's bad)

If you can hit say 'D' with you're siren and want to condition your singing voice for another step and a half
(as in 'A' increasing to 'C' [singng voice]) ,would you siren up a step and a half past that D or go even higher?

Put another way as I know this probably looks totally
confusing:

If I can sing up to D but need to get up to F,
would I increas my exisitng siren limit a step and a half
or would I increase beyond a step and a half?
:eek:
Any way , thanks for the siren suggestion, I'll work
with it...
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

06-27-2006, 08:20 AM

OK. Lots of questions. I'll try to get them all sorted here.
First, head voice vs. chest voice.
I'll give a simplified explanation to try and avoid confusion. You have the basic idea, really, you use chest voice for lower notes and you use your head voice for higher notes. So your chest voice sounds like Johnny Cash, and your head voice sounds like, say Smokey Robinson on Tears of a Clown (or if you're really powerful, Plant on Immigrant Song). They are called chest and head because the PRIMARY resonance of lower notes is in your chest and for higher notes, in your head. Fairly logical and straightforward (I hope) so far.
The 'break.'
Now, you are also right in saying that you find it easier to stay in one register, chest or head, than you do in flipping back and forth. The point where you have to flip back and forth is called your break. Your break might be several notes 'wide.' Notes that you just can't quite get to work right either in chest or head. Or it may be only one or two notes. OR it may overlap in such a way that you can hit a range of notes from either chest or head depending on the song, the melody, your vocal condition at the time, etc.
The 'siren.'
One of the biggest focal points of voice training is learning to strengthen your break, narrow it and then learn to allow it to overlap so you can make choices as to how you will hit the note. You learn to camouflage it so well that you virtually eliminate it altogether. A good exercise to begin with is the siren, which I will explain in a minute, but first a little review of vocal anatomy. Your vocal cords are housed within your larynx. For men, the larynx is easy to find - it's your 'Adam's Apple.'
The trick to connecting chest with head voice is learning to keep your larynx in a low position, which eliminates tension and allows the vocal cords to 'do their thing.' To find this position and feel it, say 'u-u-u-u-u-h.' As in duh. Hold the vowel out a bit. You should feel your larynx seating itself nice and low, but don't force or exaggerate it except to LEARN what it feels like. After you get it, let it happen naturally. OK. Now you want to maintain that low larynx position as you sing higher and higher notes. After you get the hang of it you won't believe how much fuller and richer your overall tone will become.
OK, back to the 'siren.' This exercise, as I do it, uses an 'ah' sound. You can do it on a hum, that's fine, but add sirens with an ah as well. There is a big difference between learning to resonate close-mouthed on a consonant and resonating open-mouthed on a vowel. So begin in your chest, somewhere around the tone of your speaking voice, and really, I keep some speech quality in my voice when I do this. So do the ah, beginning in chest, slide up through your break and into your head voice as high as is comfortable, then slide back down to where you began. The goal is to keep the voice smooth, slide through all the notes in the range you have selected, and keep your larynx seated. When you get up into the high notes, drop your jaw, open your mouth, and imagine your larynx nicely seated and imagine it sending the tone out the back of your head. (Mentally send it out right where your spine meets your skull.) Do maybe 5 or 6 of these each day. No more. You can do 5 or 6 hums and then 5 or 6 ahs. Watch your volume. Keep it controlled until you get it coordinated, then increase it. You may find that you have to 're-coordinate' your voice each time you increase volume. That's normal. Your goal is to be able to send this one out pretty loud, and increase your volume slightly as you hit the peak of the siren. This one exercise will increase your range in your chest voice fairly quickly, it will coordinate your break and teach you how to navigate smoothly through it.
Ideally, you will be hitting notes with the siren that you will never use because they are higher than anything you will sing in performance.
Hope this helps. Have fun!

strat2

06-27-2006, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
OK. Lots of questions. I'll try to get them all sorted here.
First, head voice vs. chest voice.
I'll give a simplified explanation to try and avoid confusion. You have the basic idea, really, you use chest voice for lower notes and you use your head voice for higher notes. So your chest voice sounds like Johnny Cash, and your head voice sounds like, say Smokey Robinson on Tears of a Clown (or if you're really powerful, Plant on Immigrant Song). They are called chest and head because the PRIMARY resonance of lower notes is in your chest and for higher notes, in your head. Fairly logical and straightforward (I hope) so far...

Hey thanks for tons of great tips in there.

I use the ooh and duh methods to lower the larynx pretty much
like you mentioned, my first teachers were kinda cluless on that,
they'd have you force it, which I understand can cause huge
damage.

I think the oooh + and uh helps me lightly lock in the glotis,
does that sound right?
I think the Break deserves more attention than I generally see it
given.
=
=

SoulHitchHiker

06-27-2006, 04:52 PM

:) cool. If you are used to singing with a low larynx, the siren should be easy for you and you'll see major improvement pretty quickly. Work the volume gradually as that will help increase your strength and tone. Let me know how you do!

strat2

06-27-2006, 05:06 PM

Will do ,

Thanks
=
=

TornadoShaunUK

07-07-2006, 07:17 AM

I have a quick question for experienced singers - is singing aso in the imagination aswell as in the physical? My book goes on about aiming your voice through an imaginary hole in the wall in front of your mouth and also imagining lifting the pathway of air inside your throat to help you elevate yur voice (pitch) etc...???

SoulHitchHiker

07-07-2006, 07:33 AM

It absolutely is, just like any other physical thing you do, much of it comes from your imagination. If you scroll up on this page, you will see a post where I talk about practicing silently and how effective it is on actual performance. On a previous page in this thread, I talk about the importance of ear training and how you must be able to 'hear' pitch in your head in order to replicate it accurately with your voice.
This is also why I am a big advocate of learning HOW your voice works anatomically. The visualizations you describe from your book only work (IMO) once you understand the mechanics of the voice, because what you describe is not connected to singing in a obvious way until you understand other voice mechanics. If you want your imagination/visualization to be super-effective, I recommend that you find at least one book that explains AND illustrates the way your voice works. Then as you work on singing, include these mechanics in your visualization and you will begin to unlock the 'big mystical unknowns' of singing. In other words, you will find that you are more consistent, and when you run into problems you will be more likely to know WHY you are having them. If you want a place to start for training materials, you are welcome to check my website www.soulhitchhiker.com. On the GEAR page there is a link to Instruction. I talk about the things I've used, why I like them and how they are different. This is only a place to start though. There are lots of training materials out there that are great. Keep us posted!

TornadoShaunUK

07-07-2006, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
It absolutely is, just like any other physical thing you do, much of it comes from your imagination. If you scroll up on this page, you will see a post where I talk about practicing silently and how effective it is on actual performance. On a previous page in this thread, I talk about the importance of ear training and how you must be able to 'hear' pitch in your head in order to replicate it accurately with your voice.
This is also why I am a big advocate of learning HOW your voice works anatomically. The visualizations you describe from your book only work (IMO) once you understand the mechanics of the voice, because what you describe is not connected to singing in a obvious way until you understand other voice mechanics. If you want your imagination/visualization to be super-effective, I recommend that you find at least one book that explains AND illustrates the way your voice works. Then as you work on singing, include these mechanics in your visualization and you will begin to unlock the 'big mystical unknowns' of singing. In other words, you will find that you are more consistent, and when you run into problems you will be more likely to know WHY you are having them. If you want a place to start for training materials, you are welcome to check my website www.soulhitchhiker.com. On the GEAR page there is a link to Instruction. I talk about the things I've used, why I like them and how they are different. This is only a place to start though. There are lots of training materials out there that are great. Keep us posted!

okay man cheers for the advice, my book actually does describe how the voice works towards the back of the book. It's set out in such a way that apparently both beginners (a la myself) can use it to get better fast, but also it is good for taking the whole thing further or "getting the whole picture". So it will probably be well worth me looking at that. Trouble for me at the moment is I don't like to sing really loud if I can help it, I should probably start booking out a practise room in town to practise at with some acoustic work and take some practise cds and such to sing along with. Would it be worthwhile practising to some backing tracks of the music I am into aswell?

At the moment the biggest worry I actually have I think is the strength of my voice, it seems quite weak to me.. what I've been doing is playing a song I like, singing along with it whilst recording just on pc sound recorder and seeing what I sound like. I can keep pitch quite well etc and my voice sounds quite nice to me, I would like a bit more sustain and rawness into it.. Can you recommend any good books that specifically help you get more of a rock and roll voice? I'm told it's a bad idea to put a bit of throat into it but having said that listening to some of the guys I do listen to they all seem to do it...??

SoulHitchHiker

07-07-2006, 09:06 AM

I'm in the same situation. I don't like to sing loud b/c I live in an apartment where the neighbors can hear everything... A little unnerving, n'ect ce pas?? :)

However, if you can book some practice space, or find some other private place to work, that would really help you get a handle on what you're doing. As for actual practice, there are several things you can do, depending on what you want to accomplish. I'll go thru your questions in order.

1. Singing to backing tracks. Yes. Absolutely. Especially if you are recording vocals, ultimately, for these songs. It's a great way to learn the song as it will be recorded. Only one caution here, don't let the song go stale on you. i.e. don't sing it so much to the backing tracks that you lose the artistry of a 'take.' A way to get around this, is to practice to a completely different arrangement of the same song.

2. Vocal strength. OK, you have good pitch. That's fabulous, b/c it's easier to develop strength than it is to work on pitch, so good. Remember that your vocal cords are made of muscle-like tissue. So just like any other muscle, you gotta work 'em. BUT you have to pace yourself and not push. Unfortunately (b/c most people hate doing them), vocal exercises are the most expedient way to gain strength, stamina and volume. If your book came with a CD of warmup exercises, begin with that. If not, find a warmup CD, or find a voice teacher who will perhaps work with you a couple times and put together a warmup that you can record and use on your own.

3. Rock voice. Work on your strength first. That is the most important (and overlooked) ingredient in a rock voice. I don't know what kind of music you're into, but if you listen to great singers like Plant, Daltrey, Paul Rodgers, anyone at that level, under the 'stuff' they're doing, there is massive strength and stamina. Once you've built that, check out the Melissa Cross DVD I list on my website (The Zen of Screaming). That's the only instructional source I know of that gives you a way to add what she calls 'heat' or rasp to your voice without doing damage.

4. How to practice. You didn't ask this directly, but I'll put it out there anyway. Always warm your voice up before you start singing at full voice. At the very least, do 10-15 minutes of easy vocal exercises. From your signature, it looks like you play guitar? If so, hey, kill 2 birds with one warmup. Play scales on your guitar and sing along. Sing anything you want - an 'ah', the names of the notes, whatever. Just begin in your lower range and work up to the highest. Then work back down. Have fun with it. Do major scales, do 1-3-5-8-5-3-1 arpeggios, do chromatics, minors, majors, pentatonics, anything and everything. Voila! Your fingers AND voice are now ready to rock!
You can warm up your voice every day. It won't hurt you if you are doing things right. (You'll know if you're doing things wrong. i.e. if it hurts, stop and don't do THAT again!!) Once you are warmed up, you can either choose more exercises to do to work on strength, or you can pick a song or two that you want to get a handle on. The point is, you don't have to practice the same way all the time. The only thing that really should remain consistent is that you warm up before you start singing hard. (And I never start singing hard right after warming up. I do easier stuff first to get my voice really loose and gage how it's responding to what I am giving it. THEN I sing hard if I choose to.)

klrbee03

07-10-2006, 09:02 AM

Hey guys,

Great info here.

I've been singing for years but I took a long break from music and have gotten back into it over the last two years. I find that I still have vocal chops, but my voice does not last nearly as long as it used to. If I sing for over an hour my voice gets tired, and if I do a song that requires my rocknroll screamy kinda thing (LedZep, ACDC) its even shorter than that.

It doesn't hurt, just degrades in quality over time, getting more raspy and harder to stay on pitch. I've read that if you do it right, you should be able to sing for hours without this kind of result, so I'm guessing I'm not doing it right.

I bought a singer's exercise CD off of e-bay which has some nice scale interval exercises, but if I warm up for too long (i.e. before practice or a gig) I feel like I'm "wasting" some of my good vocal strenth. I've been to an instructor and she told me my technique was fine, showed me some breathing stuff and a few new exercises, but I didn't feel like I got too much out of it.

I feel like I'm getting better, but just too slowly. I actually quit a band after 6 months were I was the lead singer because by set #3, it gets tough for me to stay on pitch.

Any recommendations on what else I can do? I've been working on this for some time now.

Thanks!

SoulHitchHiker

07-10-2006, 10:02 AM

Yeah, doin' Plant will wear you out. :) He has an uncanny instrument. Even now. Stamina takes time to build, or rebuild. If you're doing all the right things, and it sounds like you are, then perhaps you just bit off too much too soon, and your voice hasn't caught up with you. First off, it sounds like you have really good habits - warming up before a gig is essential to a long-lived voice. However, maybe if you make a few adjustments based on what YOU need, I'd bet that third set will become a piece of cake. (Or at least on pitch!) Here are a few suggestions that you can try in whatever combination makes sense for you. Hopefully something will either be helpful, or get you thinking along these lines and then you will find what works for you. Here goes:

1. Warm-up - Time: You can warm up anytime the day of a gig and you will be fine. So, try doing a warmup earlier in the day, say lunchtime or early afternoon. You will still be warm in the evening, but your cords will have recovered some energy.

2. Warm-up - Intensity: If you warm up early in the day, you can hit a pretty good intensity and be just fine later. If you can't manage an early warmup, keep the intensity lighter and the exercises less strenuous, but still cover your range well and make sure that your break is nice and loosened up. There are some great low-intensity warmups on Shelley Kristen's warmup CD that I really love, so you can check her out if you want.

3. Talking: Try to stay away from doing excessive talking on gig days, and of course get lots of sleep. That is when the body, including your voice, recovers from whatver you throw at it. HOWEVER: don't whisper or talk 'off the cords' b/c that will create more strain. When you speak, you should still speak from the diaphragm, keep the larynx relaxed and down, etc. just like you do when you sing. (And people will tell you you have a GREAT 'phone voice.' !!) Another trick I use: I try to avoid talking between sets. If you can't do that, pop in some ear plugs. This will help you speak at a lower volume and save your chops. Get good at reading lips (!!) and/or get comfortable speaking more closely mouth-to-ear in loud bars. Trying to be heard over the loudest DJ on the planet will blow your voice out in a matter of seconds.

4. Song Positioning: Depending on how much say you have in the band, you can put certain songs early or late in the set list to accommodate the strain they put on your voice. If you're fortunate enough to work with really cooperative players, you could perhaps experiment with key changes on a couple songs to give you a break on the higher notes. Sometimes all you need is a 1/2 step to make a song do-able, and you would only need to change perhaps one or 2 songs. This would be a last resort option for various reasons, but it's an option.

5. Hydration: Generally speaking, stay hydrated. At gigs, I normally drink warm-ish water with lemon and honey in it (kind of a hot tea w/o the tea) or just water. Now, this is a sticky point for lots of singers, but IMO it is better not to drink beer, liquor or caffeine while you are singing because they tend to dehydrate your body. Some people say they sing better if they drink, hey, that's their deal. Quite honestly, I like to stay straight so that I can control my instrument. This is a huge point of debate among singers, but one to consider.

6. Exercise: Doing vocal exercises are just like calisthenics for your cords. You can do them every day if you like, but I'd say 3x a week is a good place to start. Even when, or especially when you are not gigging, doing vocal exercises at a good intensity will help you maintain stamina.

7. Rest: Last, but not least, rest. If your voice feels tired, rest it. If you've exhausted it by pushing yourself, take a good long rest. After one band, I didn't sing AT ALL for several months. Just didn't want to b/c I was worn out. I doubt you'll need to rest that long, but listen to your body. If you need to take a couple days off or a week, do it. I will say this - after a good rest, I really dove into some new instructional materials, and I increased my range by two whole steps on the high end and probably a step on the low end. So rest is good.

I hope something in here is helpful. Let us know what you try and what works. :)

klrbee03

07-10-2006, 11:16 AM

Thanks, good tips all!

I've actually got a really long commute, and I tend to take the first 15-20 minutes of said commute to do my warm ups/exercises. Does it hurt to do that 2x a day? I definitely feel like I've got plenty of energy to do it, I'm acually surprised at how good I feel vocally after a long day at work. One thing the instructor told me is that if I'm hurting my voice it will take a while to recover, but I seem to be able to sing again a few hours after I get tired/raspy, and I'm always fine the morning after a particularly rough gig/rehearsal.

I figured out the alcohol = dehydration thing a while ago and I try to avoid that. Never comes up at rehearsal, but gigs are in bars...much more difficult there.

SoulHitchHiker

07-10-2006, 12:15 PM

Beautiful! You're on the right track then. No, it won't hurt to do vocal exercises twice a day, but I'd say split 'em up. Do light stuff in the a.m. and that's it - maybe 10-15 minutes - in the a.m. Then in the evening, do light stuff to loosen up and work your intensity up as much as you like. On the days you really feel skippy, sing your ass off. :)

I do think you might consider taking a week off from doing anything at all though. Honestly, even if you're recovering well from night to night, if you are getting pitchy as a result of fatigue, you probably need rest. And while you're resting, go get a couple massages and eat really healthy, lay off all 'altered states,' etc. Basically do really nice stuff for yourself for a week, and sleeeeeeep. I bet you'll sound like a million bucks when you start back up again. :)

As for bar gigs, I'm sure you know the bartenders, so tell 'em to keep you in water during the gig and set you up after your last song of the night, or halfway thru the last set, whatever you choose. Then you have a drinky-treat reward for a good gig. :) Hey, whatever it takes for motivation, ya know?

TornadoShaunUK

07-14-2006, 06:48 AM

Anyone hear know of any good singing books specifically for rock voice/style?

I think my voice is ok but it's dead soft, I guess it works well for acoustic stuff but I'd like to know if there are any techniques etc that really help rock vocalists in parituclar.. my voice will probably grow depper or raspier as I get older but even so...?

strat2

07-16-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
Anyone hear know of any good singing books specifically for rock voice/style?

I think my voice is ok but it's dead soft, I guess it works well for acoustic stuff but I'd like to know if there are any techniques etc that really help rock vocalists in parituclar.. my voice will probably grow depper or raspier as I get older but even so...?

Bump

Hope someone can chime in for you TornadoShaunUK,

I got nothin' .

I don't have much of a Rock Voice so I'd be kidding
you if I tried to recomend any books that have done
right in that area for me...
Shame we don't have some Paul Rogers and Rob Halford
guys to give their 2 cents.
Good luck with it.

Bump

SoulHitchHiker

07-18-2006, 07:37 AM

Try Melissa Cross DVD The Zen of Screaming and Mark Baxter's DVD The Singer's Toolbox. However, check my most recent posts as well. I haven't said anything in them that either of those instructors don't also say. Strength and stamina come from working your voice properly. Invest in some good materials, and then invest some time in yourself practicing. You will see results fairly quickly.

Westsailor

07-22-2006, 08:02 AM

I play in a band and we do (cover) songs in just about every key imaginable. This is because the band/singer generally learns the song by listening to/singing along to the original (CD) song.

Not surprisingly, there are some songs I think are too high (or low) for her. She's just too nice/proud to suggest/tell us she'd do better in 'her' key.

I'm starting to sing more than just backup myself so I have a basic question:

How do you determine what is the optimal key for your particular vocal range?

Assuming a 'normal' voice range, would the conventional widsom suggest you want to limit the range around your optimal key to a half tone higher/lower? A full tone? Or ?

SoulHitchHiker

07-22-2006, 09:31 AM

First off, I have to say that your singer is really lucky to have someone actually listening to her and caring about her voice and how she sounds. In my experience, that's a rare luxury that I have now, but never did before. So good for you.

Other singers may have different opinions on this, but here's the way I approach it. First, I don't hold with the idea that there is a single 'good' key for a singer IF the singer has a good range is well-trained. IF you are a singer with a very limited range, you may find that you have 3 or 4 keys that songs work best in for you (Usually built around a main key like C-F-G or G-C-D). That doesn't sound like it's the case here.

For a singer, the key is less the issue than WHERE the melody sits in that key. For example, take Tears of a Clown, which is in D and compare it to Born Under a Bad Sign in D (Paul Rodgers' version). The melodies sit in radically different places. So you can't say that a singer who 'sings well in the key of D' is going to necessarily sing both these songs well.

As for getting a good vocal sound as related to key, every voice is different, just llike every guitar has a different 'voice.' You have to mess around and see where that sweet zone is for your particular voice.

However, don't forget the psychoacoustic side of things. Changing keys can really change the way a song sounds musically. It can also affect what you can do with it instrumentally. Guitar players may lose their low open strings if they change a song from E to something else, and that may matter to the song. Horn players work best in certain keys.

A song may brighten or darken drastically if you change its key. Here's an example from my band. We were messing around in rehearsal and started jamming on I Can See Clearly Now. It sounded pretty good, so we decided to learn it and put it in the set list. If you remember the original, it's a kind of bright reggae thing in D. Our guitar player/arranger put it to a soul/funk groove and dropped the key from D to A. When we ran through it like that, I couldn't quite get a feel for the song. It was darker and funkier. Not a bad thing, but different. Now, our guitar player knows my voice very well, so all he had to do was coach me to 'sing rougher' than the cover version. I got it immediately and now we've got this really cool version of an old cover tune.

Here's what I would suggest. Pick one or two songs that you believe she should try in a different key. Try to find a key that you can suggest that's better suited. If she's struggling with only the highest or lowest notes, move it maybe a step up or down. Often this can make the difference. If the whole song sounds difficult for her, go farther from the original key.

Call a rehearsal, but make it strictly acoustic (the acoustic part is really important, so please try it this way). Sit around in a circle with the song sheets in front of you (even if you know the song, you will likely need to take notes or read from new chord sheets). Have your guitar players bring acoustic guitars, all the drummer needs is sticks and a phonebook to keep time. If the bass player doesn't have an acoustic bass, have him plug in and stay at a very low volume. No mic for the singer(s). The idea is to play and sing no louder than speaking volume. You are working on keys and arrangements here, not performance. That comes later.

Ok now play though the song in the new key. If she's got a good ear, she may chime right in with the melody, but if not, or if she's really got the song ingrained in her head, she may have a really hard time hearing her start note. Any place the chord structure varies, like a bridge or a 'second part' might also be difficult for her at first. Keep working at it. Give her the start notes, make sure she can hear the chord changes. Be patient and ask her to be patient with herself. Tell her it was hard for you to learn it in a new key too. B/c sometimes it is.

Work though the song and see what happens. If she balks at the key change, tell her it's because you want to get a different feel from the song now that you guys have played it the 'original way' for long enough. If you tell her you're changing the song to suit her voice better, make sure you do it in a really positive way that makes her feel good about what she's doing. Apparently from what you say, she may have it in her head that if she has to change a key it means she's not good enough. Tell her that she's terrific and you want to put this song in her 'sweet spot' so that SHE shines on the song. Something like that. Don't bullshit her, but do what you need to do to get her invested in the key change.

Another thing. She may 'practice' to the original recordings, which may be why she resists key changes. If that's the case, once you get the song down, record it for her. Just a rough track will do. Enough for her to get a pitch reference and hear the tempo/chord changes.

Please let us know how it goes. :)

MDLMUSIC

07-24-2006, 02:20 PM

Excellent post, SoulHitchHiker.

I am the vocalist/guitarist in an oldies/classic rock trio and I nearly always rekey songs so that they fit my range. I will often go so far as to drop a bridge part if it is just too difficult for my voice to do it justice. So far, no audience member has ever come up and complained that they missed part of the song. Generally, as long as they're dancing and drinking and having a good time, the audience will accept changes to a cover tune. And if you really change it, for example, a major stylistic change (a reggae version of "Smoke on the Water"???), most people won't even know it's a cover tune.

I really like your rehearsal idea about using acoustic guitars and no mics. We used to do this in an oldies tribute band where all four of us sang harmonies, and it really paid off. Most people who listen to a band don't really know what is technically difficult and what isn't, but most can hear when someone is singing out of tune.

Now with my trio, I use a vocal harmonizer so I don't need to worry about practicing harmonies.

SoulHitchHiker

07-24-2006, 02:43 PM

Thanks! I can't take all the credit though... My band leader/arranger clued me in on the acoustic rehearsals. It's the way most high-level bands pull things together either for a tour or for going into the studio, and boy does it work. As you said, it's great for working out harmony vocals, or any other intricate part of a song. You are absolutely right too about out of tune harmonies or vocals in general. Yeah, you always miss pitch occasionally, and people mosly don't even hear it, or they forgive it, but when it's chronic, or when the harmonies come in sounding like cats in a blender (!!!) people DO notice. :)

I love watching people's faces as they begin to recognize a cover tune that we've tangled with (or tangled up). :) It's almost like giving the audience a gift in a way b/c if you do a good job of rearranging the song, they have the chance to hear it 'for the first time' again. Of course there are always the folks who only want to hear it one way - just like the record - but I like to believe there are more open-minded people out there to make up for them. Otherwise songs wouldn't chart multiple times by multiple artists.

ihateyouguys

07-24-2006, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by MDLMUSIC
So whose palms do we need to grease to get the Vocal Forum started?

Send me $2.50 and I'll put in a good word. :D

DunedinDoug

07-25-2006, 06:17 AM

I recently worked with a vocalist who absolutely could not handle a change in keys. I was trying to help him down from a song in the key of Eb to D which would have been easier for him to sing. He could not make the move. He had the song memorized in the key he learned it in and was unable to switch. Some folks are built that way, I guess. (I do believe, though, that I can come back to that same song on a different night and sneak the new key in on him. But once he starts singing in the original key he's locked on to it.)

SoulHitchHiker

07-25-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote: Send me $2.50 and I'll put in a good word.

Check's in the mail! :)

Doug is right. It can be really tough to get a singer to change keys even if the new key is easier. In that case, you have some choices to make. How bad does the song sound in the key the singer knows? The band may have to either dump the song, find someone else to sing it, or find another singer.

And you may very well be able to get him to sing the song a half-step lower by just beginning it that way. One of two things will happen if you do, either he will follow the given pitch reference and not even realize the difference or he will begin the song in 'his' key, realize there's a problem and then get very confused.

A word to the wise singers. Become a musician. I don't mean learn to play guitar or piano - I mean become a musician with your voice. Learn to change keys, learn to be flexible and communicate with your band. Learn a little music theory, chord structure and song structure, etc. Learn about sound and microphones and effects and whatnot, so that you can figure out what makes your instrument sound the best. Try things. Experiment. Stay loose.

And for God's sake, keep your ego in check. Musicians are all performers, and we're all slightly neurotic! We all get insecure about our abilities, but when you let that insecurity go too far, it can turn inside out and become the biggest, ugliest ego you can imagine. This is why bands break up. This is why we hear about the dreaded "Lead Singer Disease."

And once a band has had a taste of LSD, they tend to expect that every singer they will ever work with has it. That's a difficult situation to walk into. I'd love to hear if you guys have experienced this and what you've done to make it work.

Westsailor

07-25-2006, 08:56 AM

First, I want to say thanks for your very insightful reply to my question (how does a vocalist find his/her best key).

You made some very good points that make sense.

but more importantly, you also gave me some ideas of how to approach the singer without coming across/sounding 'critical' of her talents.

Which I'm certainly not wanting/trying to be but you must be prescient because your mention of 'LSD' is definately a factor to consider.

It's not so much she believes she's better than she is, but she can become fairly defensive fairly quick at any suggestion another key might be better for her, etc..

Any advice how to 'manage' what may be (at this point) emerging LSD? Keep it from becoming full blown? I'd like to do whatever I can because I believe it would be in her (if not everyones) best interest in the long run.

SoulHitchHiker

07-25-2006, 10:50 AM

Westsailor --------------> Any advice how to 'manage' what may be (at this point) emerging LSD? Keep it from becoming full blown? I'd like to do whatever I can because I believe it would be in her (if not everyones) best interest in the long run.

Soulhitchhiker --------> Well that's a tough one to answer since I don't know her or the personality dynamics of the band, but I'll give it a go. Basically, I'm just going to lay out what I believe might be the basic psychology of the thing and then give you some ideas for approaching it. Anyone who has experience or input, please chime in here. I may be completely barking up the wrong tree, and if so, say so.

OK. First things to consider are these. Is she the only female in the band? Is she in a relationship with or related to any of the band members? Does she play an instrument other than her own voice? And do you feel as if you have a good working relationship with her one on one?

If she is the only female in the band, that can be tough, especially if she's a very feminine type. She may automatically feel very much 'outside' the band. If she's easygoing and rolls with the punches, it's better for everyone, and she will feel less 'outside.' Feeling like you don't quite belong breeds insecurity.

If she is in a relationship with someone in the band, that can complicate matters, but if it's part of the band dynamic, the ENTIRE band must address these complications and come to a working argeement if you haven't already. As it relates to the dreaded LSD, being in a relationship with a bandmate works two ways at the same time. The 'relationship' feels like support and gives confidence, but at the same time, no one wants to 'fail' in front of someone they care about, so it brings out insecurity, which in turn, keeps that person from taking chances and making mistakes, which is the only way you learn and improve yourself.

If she sings, but plays no other instrument, this may also lead her to feel 'outside' the band. When you play an instrument, you know the song in a different way, you're a part of the instrumentation, thus a part of the 'band' and you know where you are in the song whether you are singing or not (i.e. during solo sections, intros. outros, etc.) For example, I do play some guitar, but not with this band, so I tend to get lost very quickly during instrumental breaks. Our guitar player and I have developed a way to communicate so that I know when I need to come back in because we don't do songs the same way twice. It is frustrating for me, and that makes me nervous about performing, but I know that we have our little system and I trust him.

OK, so these are just SOME of the factors that can create insecurities in singers. Remember that LSD is simply insecurity and fear turned inside out. Instead of her showing fear, she's going to throw up a defense, regardless of what is causing the fear.

Now, the reason I ask if you believe you have a good one on one relationship with her is this. YOU are going to be the one who manages this situation. Do it one on one with her. Never put her in an uncomfortable position in front of the rest of the band. When she gets defensive about something, drop it and move on to something else immediately.

After rehearsal, talk to her alone. Ask her what made her uncomfortable about that situation. Get her to talk. Once you remove the threat of her having to do something she's uncomfortable with, she has no reason to be defensive anymore, right? So once you talk her through it, you and she may find that she's more than willing to try that very thing. She may be fine working on it alone with you if she trusts you.

The key to it is earning and keeping her trust, and understanding where her fear, isolation or insecurity is coming from. Once you know where it comes from, you can work with her to help her manage it. As you get good at this, I bet you'll find you have to apply this same strategy over and over with other bandmates and other people in your life.

My last piece of advice is this. Don't tell the other band members what you are doing. You need her absolute faith in your ability to be discrete, and you don't really need anyone else knowing. You can even discuss this with her. Tell her you have no intention of telling anyone else. She may not care, but likely she will. If anyone asks, hey, why all of a sudden the key change? Either let her answer, or just say, well, she came to me after thinking about it and wanted to try it. Let her have the power there.

I really hope some of this makes sense and that you can get some helpful ideas out of it. It sounds very much to me that you have a nice girl who wants very much to be a good singer, but feels like she's in over her head a little. From your posts you sound intelligent and intuitive, and it sounds as if you respect her ability, so I believe that you will find a way to not only work with her, but bring out her best voice. Like I said before, she is VERY lucky to have someone who wants the best for her.

All the best of luck, and please let us know what you decide to do and what works. Being in a band is never easy, and you can either continue to react to people's surface behavior, or you can try to get behind it and build trust and solid working relationships. Sometimes you succeed and sometimes you don't.

Westsailor

07-25-2006, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker

I really hope some of this makes sense and that you can get some helpful ideas out of it.

Yup, makes all the sense in the world and I really appreciate your ideas.

thanks!

SoulHitchHiker

07-25-2006, 12:51 PM

Wonderful! Please post updates as to what works (or doesn't). Every band goes thorugh this in some fashion, and it's not always the singer. Good luck!

TornadoShaunUK

07-28-2006, 05:56 AM

ok people, I put up a brief unplugged sample on myspace, its a cover so I'm going to have to take it down asap =/ What can I do to improve this? I've been told a good thing might be to downtune my guitar but I'd rather just hone my voice until I can sing properly in pitch and suchlike =/ Any honest feedback would be appreciated.. I'm afraid all I've got to record things on at the moment is just the bog standard 'sound recorder' function on my PC so apologies for that..

www.myspace.com/shaunvarnham

SoulHitchHiker

07-28-2006, 09:01 AM

Shaun, good job, and I do have some suggestions. One question. Did you track guitar and vocals at the same time, or did you do the guitar track first and then put down the vocals?

On considering a key change. No. Not necessary. The melody fits your voice nicely. I don't hear any strain or push at all. In fact, what I hear is a voice with great potential. You have good tone and timbre, which will only improve as you sing more, building strength and endurance. What I hear standing in the way is lack of endurance in the voice (not being able to sustain pitch), and occasional missed pitch. These are simple to correct.

I have several recommendations here. The first deals with my question above. If you tracked guitar and vocals simultaneously, that may explain some of it. It's really tough to sing and play at the same time. I avoid it like the plague, while some folks are really good at it, but even those folks often sacrifice one for the other somehow. Either they simplify the accompaniment or the vocal line.

Another question. Could you hear yourself well enough? If we can't hear what we're singing, we tend to lose pitch.

Overall, regardless of these other factors, I believe that you should do the following two things:

1. Ear training. I've described several different ways to approach this, so I won't take up the space here. If you have specific questions though, ask, and I'll post a reply. Also try the silent singing technique that I've described in previous posts. This will slam that melody indelibly into your brain - I promise!

2. Strength training. (No, not at the gym!!) I think you were the one who has an instructional book? Work on the vocal exercises in that book, especially the ones that work on holding notes out, and ones that work through a scale quickly, i.e. lots of notes that you have to hit and move on. If you don't have exercises like these, I can recommend materials that do. These will improve your strength and agility.

The point is, you have a fine instrument. You've obviously put the time into learning to play guitar. Now put some time into YOUR instrument, and you will be quite happy with the results.

All the best!

Westsailor

07-28-2006, 04:45 PM

OK, now that I know how to 'fix' the bands lead singer, I have a question about my own voice :)

I play bass and have always just sung backup/harmonies (I have/use a Shure Beta 58).

I'm in a situation where I have the opportunity to sing lead on some songs and when I got by the initial butterflies I find I really enjoy it.

Problem is, I feel like my voice is a perfect backup voice: warm, but bland. Oh I believe I have a decent voice... Thanks to singing backup the strength, endurance, pitch is there, etc.. It just has no 'character'.

Now I'm not looking to develop 'character' to the level of say, Leon Redbone (or anybody else for that matter). In fact it annoys me to no end when someone has a good voice already yet tries to sing with a 'false personality'.

I'm just wanting to develop/project some of my own unique personality when I sing.

Any advice/tips/ideas?

madjack

07-28-2006, 04:50 PM

Think about the lyrics of the song, and what they mean to you. Then try to convey that meaning to the audience.

SoulHitchHiker

07-28-2006, 07:43 PM

Hmmm. Interpreting the lyrics for yourself is a good start, but let me ask you this. You obviously play an instrument. Do you have a 'voice' with that? As in, do you play songs 'just like the record' or do you make it your own? If you make it your own, then simply apply what you did with one instrument to what you want to do with the other.

To get you to think about character or expression in singing, think about it in terms of guitar (which I hope you play b/c I have no idea how to translate in terms of keyboards!!) So a guitar player will use bends, hammer ons, pull offs, dynamics, phrasing, etc. to give his guitar lines character and expression, right? Well guess what. You can do the same thing with your voice.

Go and listen to music other than the covers you are doing with your band. IMO, the best places to start are with pop/rock greats like Aretha Franklin, Roy Orbison, Robert Plant, Freddy Mercury. Even if you hate the material, listen to what these folks do expression-wise. Don't listen to the song or the lyrics per se. Listen to their melody line as if they are playing a solo instrument. Listen to dynamics, texture, slides, slurring, staccato, phrasing. You will get loads of ideas.

Then begin experimenting on your own, but with different songs. So perhaps you take Freddy Mercury's dynamics and apply them to a love song. Or you take Plant's primal energy and turn a pop tune into a tour de force. See?

Jeff Beck listened to all kinds of singers as he developed his guitar style, and you can tell. When you hear him play, his guitar literally sings. Soooooooooo, I'd bet that once you start applying these ideas to your own music, not only will your singing gain character, but your playing will come alive as well in ways you never expected.

One thing that I firmly believe helped me develop my own way of singing is that I have a naturally low voice. When I warm up, I can go as low as D or D# above low C, depends on the day. But I'm a chick. So I tended to listen to and sing along with male singers rather than female singers. As you cross gender, it's tough to imitate - OK, I can love Johnny Cash, but I'll never sound like him, ya know? So that forced me to develop in my own way.

Even after I developed my head voice and extended my range up to high C-ish, I already had my own expressive qualities. So, if you are worried about imitating other singers, cross genders. If you're male, listen to great female singers. Annie Lennox is a great contemporary singer to listen to. She gets more textures out of her voice than anyone I know. If you're female, listen to Plant, or Paul Rodgers. Also, listen outside of your comfort zone both range and genre-wise. You WILL learn things.

Another thing to consider. Your microphone. There are quite a few performance-quality mics in the same price range as an SM58. I recommend that if possible, beg or borrow (no stealing) a few different mics and record yourself singing with them. Try singing something that covers all of your range from low to high that you would use at a gig. Listen back and pick the mic that gives your voice the tone and timbre you prefer.

My go-to mic is a Heil PR20. When I compared it with the SM58, it KILLED. It made the 58 sound weak and thin, and as I went up into upper-chest and then head voice, the 58 sounded harsh and spitty. The Heil has a rich, smooth response. Now, the tone and timbre I go for is rich and full sounding. I worked hard to develop those qualities in my voice, and I sure don't want a mic to remove them. But that's MY preference.

So when you compare mics, think hard about what you want to enhance/camouflage in your voice. For some folks the 58 is the perfect mic. Others swear by some other brand. Point being, there are differences and they DO affect how you sound. Back to the guitar analogy: putting a guitar through different amps will make the guitar sound different. Right? So be as picky about your mic and you would about a guitar amp, the pickups, strings, all that stuff.

As always, I probably posted way too much! :) good luck!

PS Oops! I see now that you play bass. Good! My guitar analogies will make sense! Whew!

TornadoShaunUK

07-29-2006, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Shaun, good job, and I do have some suggestions. One question. Did you track guitar and vocals at the same time, or did you do the guitar track first and then put down the vocals?

On considering a key change. No. Not necessary. The melody fits your voice nicely. I don't hear any strain or push at all. In fact, what I hear is a voice with great potential. You have good tone and timbre, which will only improve as you sing more, building strength and endurance. What I hear standing in the way is lack of endurance in the voice (not being able to sustain pitch), and occasional missed pitch. These are simple to correct.

I have several recommendations here. The first deals with my question above. If you tracked guitar and vocals simultaneously, that may explain some of it. It's really tough to sing and play at the same time. I avoid it like the plague, while some folks are really good at it, but even those folks often sacrifice one for the other somehow. Either they simplify the accompaniment or the vocal line.

Another question. Could you hear yourself well enough? If we can't hear what we're singing, we tend to lose pitch.

Overall, regardless of these other factors, I believe that you should do the following two things:

1. Ear training. I've described several different ways to approach this, so I won't take up the space here. If you have specific questions though, ask, and I'll post a reply. Also try the silent singing technique that I've described in previous posts. This will slam that melody indelibly into your brain - I promise!

2. Strength training. (No, not at the gym!!) I think you were the one who has an instructional book? Work on the vocal exercises in that book, especially the ones that work on holding notes out, and ones that work through a scale quickly, i.e. lots of notes that you have to hit and move on. If you don't have exercises like these, I can recommend materials that do. These will improve your strength and agility.

The point is, you have a fine instrument. You've obviously put the time into learning to play guitar. Now put some time into YOUR instrument, and you will be quite happy with the results.

All the best!

Hi there.. I recorded it playing guitar and singing at the same time.. all unplugged with no mics/amps. The recording probably wouldn't be great even if I was a great singer as I've got no real recording gear this was just done on your bog standard PC sound recorder.

I'm really not sure what to make of it, I have been told by someone on this forum that it sounds quite off key and I should perhaps consider tuning my guitar down..

I do have a book, it is called 'The Secrets Of Sining' by Jeffery Allen. I'll have to have a crack at the excercises more.

SoulHitchHiker

07-29-2006, 03:26 PM

From the listen I gave it, I still disagree that you need to change key. Also, I wasn't listening to the recording quality. Rather, I was listening to your vocal qualities, which is what you asked us to do. :) Trust me, a good voice comes through regardless of how it's recorded. Perhaps you didn't notice, but I did say that you have really good vocal qualities, and all you have to do is develop them. :)

The only reason I asked about your methods was to determine whether you were distracted from singing because you were playing at the same time.

I suspected as much, and one thing I would do if I were you, is consider tracking guitar and vocs separately if that's possible for you to do. I think you'll hear an improvement in the quality of both right away, and you will get a fairer assessment of your singing voice as it is.

Give yourself a couple weeks and work religiously on ear training. That alone will improve your pitch. When you sing, you begin by hearing the pitch in your head and then you reproduce it with your voice. If you are not spot on with hearing it in your head, you are going to have a more difficult time reproducing it vocally. Do 10-20 minutes of ear training a day (no more - ear fatigue sets in and you will get frustrated), every day for 2 weeks. Then go back and re-record the same song. See how you do.

If you want specific instructions on how to do ear training, post here, but I think you'll find the info in my previous posts. :)

SoulHitchHiker

07-29-2006, 03:33 PM

BTW. I was not familiar with the book you have, so I checked it out on Amazon. This looks like a really thorough, well-written book, and it incorporates a lot of information for the beginner through the intermediate singer. In other words, this is a book you can grow with for quite some time. Good choice!

TornadoShaunUK

07-30-2006, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
BTW. I was not familiar with the book you have, so I checked it out on Amazon. This looks like a really thorough, well-written book, and it incorporates a lot of information for the beginner through the intermediate singer. In other words, this is a book you can grow with for quite some time. Good choice!

Hey. I actually PMed a singer I know of named 'Keith Slack' on myspace asking him about how to go about learning to sing and such and he recommended this book because he had a few lessons from the guy that wrote it. It does seem like a great book and has excercise cds (one that caters for male 'low' voice and one that caters for male 'high' voice). I've been using the low one though to be honest I'm not really sure if my voice is a high or low one, it seems more like a mixture to me.. =/

Anyway, what I do plan on doing eventually is getting myself some recording gear whereby I can record all my guitar tracks separately like you said but for now I pretty much have to sing and play at the same time.. you get used to it, though it does effect your vocals in some ways and for some songs it's just utterly hard to do when you are first learning to try and do it..

SoulHitchHiker

07-30-2006, 05:49 PM

Yeah, I was a little puzzled at the 'high/low' thing, but since I don't have the CDs to listen to, I couldn't really determine what's going on. My assumption, from the material I did find, is that perhaps the low is focused more on the bass/baritone ranges, and the high is focused on the tenor range. So from that, I would expect that the starting notes of the warmups would be lower, but still go fairly high on the 'low' CD and everything would be moved up quite a few steps on the 'high' CD.

That said, yes, your voice is a mix of low and high, or chest and head voice. If my assumptions are correct about the 2 CDs, then you may find that your range straddles the material on the CDs. If that's the case, no worries, just burn the exercises that fit your range onto one CD and call that your warmup. As your voice study progresses, your range will expand on both the high and low ends, so you will find that you can start lower and sing higher after a while.

Also, it is good overall training for you to sing and play at the same time, so do keep at it. As singing becomes easier and requires less conscious attention, you'll get better at it, so perhaps your recording setup, although 'rudimentary' is a good one for chop-building. (Don't you LOVE it when people tell you shit like that!!??)

Back to the woodshed!

TornadoShaunUK

07-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Yeah, I was a little puzzled at the 'high/low' thing, but since I don't have the CDs to listen to, I couldn't really determine what's going on. My assumption, from the material I did find, is that perhaps the low is focused more on the bass/baritone ranges, and the high is focused on the tenor range. So from that, I would expect that the starting notes of the warmups would be lower, but still go fairly high on the 'low' CD and everything would be moved up quite a few steps on the 'high' CD.

That said, yes, your voice is a mix of low and high, or chest and head voice. If my assumptions are correct about the 2 CDs, then you may find that your range straddles the material on the CDs. If that's the case, no worries, just burn the exercises that fit your range onto one CD and call that your warmup. As your voice study progresses, your range will expand on both the high and low ends, so you will find that you can start lower and sing higher after a while.

Also, it is good overall training for you to sing and play at the same time, so do keep at it. As singing becomes easier and requires less conscious attention, you'll get better at it, so perhaps your recording setup, although 'rudimentary' is a good one for chop-building. (Don't you LOVE it when people tell you shit like that!!??)

Back to the woodshed!

Well I've been practising a bit today since I got home from work again. I managed to find some Bon Jovi mp3 backing tracks up on www.drycounty.com and they are quite nice to sing along with. I don't really think key is a problem at all, I think my voice lacks a little power at the moment and also every so often when I'm going for a higher note my voice seems to break or something.. perhaps I just have a really weak voice at the moment as I'm not that used to sing alot.

SoulHitchHiker

07-31-2006, 11:36 AM

Good. :) Keep at it. Like I said, 10-15 minutes of ear training a day, maybe 20-30 minutes of vocal exercises from your book, then work on the song some. Just like you have to work your body to build strength, you also have to work your vocal cords to build their strength. They are basically muscle-like tissues. I'm looking forward to hearing a new post on your myspace site in a few weeks to hear the improvement!

TornadoShaunUK

08-01-2006, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Good. :) Keep at it. Like I said, 10-15 minutes of ear training a day, maybe 20-30 minutes of vocal exercises from your book, then work on the song some. Just like you have to work your body to build strength, you also have to work your vocal cords to build their strength. They are basically muscle-like tissues. I'm looking forward to hearing a new post on your myspace site in a few weeks to hear the improvement!

might even have some of my own stuff up by then :thu:

SoulHitchHiker

08-01-2006, 09:52 AM

Excellent! Keep us posted, pardon the pun........ :eek:

SAMMY

08-04-2006, 10:25 PM

Been away for a while but it's good to see this thread still kicking!!!:)

SoulHitchHiker

08-05-2006, 05:57 AM

Yeah, it's too bad we don't have our own little forum. I see other posts that address singing or vocal gear or whatnot. Seems a forum of our own would be a nice thing, but till then, here we are... :)

TornadoShaunUK

08-30-2006, 12:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nH0mtpYiBo

I managed to post up a video on youtube of me doing 'Wanted Dead Or Alive' acoustic Bon Jovi cover. Any feedback is welcome.. I'm afraid it's not really that loud.. I just ran my SM58 through my guitar amp to record it and played the guitar unplugged..

Bajazz

08-31-2006, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
I managed to post up a video on youtube of me doing 'Wanted Dead Or Alive' acoustic Bon Jovi cover. Any feedback is welcome.. I'm afraid it's not really that loud.. I just ran my SM58 through my guitar amp to record it and played the guitar unplugged.. I'm sorry to say this, but your not just out of tune. It's not even the same melody. You vary between a 3rd and a 5th below the original melody. You need to spend as much time singing as you have on your guitar playing, which was OK.

TornadoShaunUK

08-31-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I'm sorry to say this, but your not just out of tune. It's not even the same melody. You vary between a 3rd and a 5th below the original melody. You need to spend as much time singing as you have on your guitar playing, which was OK.

Oh dear.. well I'll probably post something else up at a later date.. I can't really understand why I am not in pitch tbh.. do I just need to sing louder or what..? I'm really at a loss on this one.. perhaps I should just stick to guitars :rolleyes:

SoulHitchHiker

08-31-2006, 01:50 PM

OK. Here's what I think might be going on. Not having the original Bon Jovi recording as a reference, I'm guessing here, but maybe you can help me out a bit with the details.

If I recall the original there are some harmony parts on a good deal of the vocals, and most likely some effects on the lead vocal. What I think is happening is that you aren't hearing the lead melody clearly enough in your head before/as you are singing. It sounds as if you are hearing the harmony better than the lead, but the lead is coloring it so that what comes out is something like a harmony interval (third, fifth) higher, but flat b/c the lead vocal is 'pulling you down' a bit.

YOUR ASSIGNMENT: Listen to the song and find the lead vocal. (If Bon Jovi is doing his own harmonies, this could be difficult for you to hear if you're already having trouble, but try.) Now listen to the song until you can clearly hear the lead vocal as a melody line separate from the harmony.

Once you FIND the melody, practice hearing it in your head, one bit at a time, and then sing that bit. Keep going until you are hearing the correct notes before you sing them, and you are then singing them with dead-on pitch. You CAN do this. But it takes work and practice. Anyone who thinks singing is easy, isn't a singer. :)

Now, hop to it and report back.

strat2

08-31-2006, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK

Oh dear.. well I'll probably post something else up at a later date.. I can't really understand why I am not in pitch tbh.. do I just need to sing louder or what..? I'm really at a loss on this one.. perhaps I should just stick to guitars :rolleyes:

Good that you posted the clip, stay with it.
Do Not try to compensate pitch problems with singing louder
or softer.
You got a lot of it right, read back on some of the past posts
if you get really bored, there are some good ideas back a ways
on gettin better at pitch recognition/execution.
I agree with the last two posts.
You are flat here and there, and you also are following harmonies
as well as making up your some of your own melodies.
I do both at times too.
Sometimes I'll change a melody line a little cause it's not in my
key, I don't think that's what you're doing but if it is ---
change keys.
Break phrases into tiny segments as mentioned by SH as well
as myself (way back).
A short line like ..... "I'm wanted" will sometimes deserve an
hours worth (or more) of going over.Go over it imagining
you're singing it , and then run through it vocally and match it
back and forth to the recording, till you've nailed it.
Then when you come to the "Dead or alive" part as in many tunes
you might find out that the interval isn't at all what you think
it is. Wanted---- dead or alive , pick each note out on your
guitar. Im not saying you got that line wrong, just throwing it up
as an example.
Some times approaching the 'Dead' type follow up in a lyric
you might find it's lot's easier to nail by approaching it from
above or probably in my case I'd turn the onset 'D' of Dead
into two super quick half step below to the note, and then
nail the note.
Sometimes the scale of the melody can be a trick one too
and if you're not using the exactly perfect chord in support
of the melody it becomes impossible to use the right melody
cause the chord is telling you to do something else.
Very hard sometimes to spot that problem.
I hate thinking about scales , but sometimes you have to
think 'like' one to get the tune right.
Just some ideas, there's lot's of other approaches that may
work better.
Good luck with it , if you enjoy it stay with it , you'll see
improvement, and you have a real good grasp of combining
the voice with the guitar already.
:eek:

TornadoShaunUK

09-01-2006, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by strat2

Good that you posted the clip, stay with it.
Do Not try to compensate pitch problems with singing louder
or softer.
You got a lot of it right, read back on some of the past posts
if you get really bored, there are some good ideas back a ways
on gettin better at pitch recognition/execution.
I agree with the last two posts.
You are flat here and there, and you also are following harmonies
as well as making up your some of your own melodies.
I do both at times too.
Sometimes I'll change a melody line a little cause it's not in my
key, I don't think that's what you're doing but if it is ---
change keys.
Break phrases into tiny segments as mentioned by SH as well
as myself (way back).
A short line like ..... "I'm wanted" will sometimes deserve an
hours worth (or more) of going over.Go over it imagining
you're singing it , and then run through it vocally and match it
back and forth to the recording, till you've nailed it.
Then when you come to the "Dead or alive" part as in many tunes
you might find out that the interval isn't at all what you think
it is. Wanted---- dead or alive , pick each note out on your
guitar. Im not saying you got that line wrong, just throwing it up
as an example.
Some times approaching the 'Dead' type follow up in a lyric
you might find it's lot's easier to nail by approaching it from
above or probably in my case I'd turn the onset 'D' of Dead
into two super quick half step below to the note, and then
nail the note.
Sometimes the scale of the melody can be a trick one too
and if you're not using the exactly perfect chord in support
of the melody it becomes impossible to use the right melody
cause the chord is telling you to do something else.
Very hard sometimes to spot that problem.
I hate thinking about scales , but sometimes you have to
think 'like' one to get the tune right.
Just some ideas, there's lot's of other approaches that may
work better.
Good luck with it , if you enjoy it stay with it , you'll see
improvement, and you have a real good grasp of combining
the voice with the guitar already.
:eek:

Okay I'll have a few more practises and get around to recording another version soon. I know that Bon Jovi themselves vary the song slightly sometimes aswell, obviously I have the studio recorded version but I also have an acoustic version which has a couple of different melodies in there and even some slightly altered lyrics and it sounds far more throatier than the oriignal recording. I'll post another one up sometime soon anyway and hopefully I'll have made a little progress... :thu:

TornadoShaunUK

09-05-2006, 02:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an6ngDNn3xE

okay I've done another - any better? Am I still out of key in places? Any constructive feedback will be appreciated..

You'll have to excuse the mic though - it does flicker a bit when I sing a bit louder =/

flanc

09-05-2006, 03:04 PM

I didn't see your first effort but this one, appears to me, to be sung in harmony key voiced below the original (Bon Jovi) key and what you are playing on the guitar. Keep practicing and kudo's to you for putting your stuff out to be critiqued!

TornadoShaunUK

09-05-2006, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by flanc
I didn't see your first effort but this one, appears to me, to be sung in harmony key voiced below the original (Bon Jovi) key and what you are playing on the guitar. Keep practicing and kudo's to you for putting your stuff out to be critiqued!

same as the first time around then.. =/ sigh - I just can't get the hang of this..

:(

madjack

09-05-2006, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK

same as the first time around then.. =/ sigh - I just can't get the hang of this..

:(

Actually, no it's not the same as the first time around. On your first effort your voice was sort of all over the place, without really an identifiable key. On this effort, you are basically singing the approximate melody, but you are singing a fourth below where it should be. It sounds to me like the song is basically keyed too high for your voice. You might try putting the song into the key of A to fit your voice better.

Don't get discouraged, as you have made quite a bit of progress from the first posting to this one. Keep up the good effort, and remember, decent and proper singing doesn't come any more easily that learning a new instrument. If you can hear your instrument well enough to learn to play, as you obviously can, then you can learn to hear the pitch of your voice and know when you are on key.;)

TornadoShaunUK

09-05-2006, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by madjack

Actually, no it's not the same as the first time around. On your first effort your voice was sort of all over the place, without really an identifiable key. On this effort, you are basically singing the approximate melody, but you are singing a fourth below where it should be. It sounds to me like the song is basically keyed too high for your voice. You might try putting the song into the key of A to fit your voice better.

Don't get discouraged, as you have made quite a bit of progress from the first posting to this one. Keep up the good effort, and remember, decent and proper singing doesn't come any more easily that learning a new instrument. If you can hear your instrument well enough to learn to play, as you obviously can, then you can learn to hear the pitch of your voice and know when you are on key.;)

I would rather try and learn to sing it in the correct key. I'm just not entirely sure about how to change what key I'm singing in =/ When I listen to these recordings myself I think it sounds okay.. perhaps I just have a bad ear for these things =/

I think this song is in C Major key I just don't know how to go about correcting my voice =/

SoulHitchHiker

09-05-2006, 04:58 PM

First. Madjack is right. It IS better than the first one. You are zeroing in on the melody much better. Still pitchy, but you are improving. Keep working on really hearing the melody in your head and you will begin nailing it. I can actually hear in places where you are getting it, and then I can hear where you disconnect again.

Second. You have chosen a song that isn't as simple to sing as it appears, and I hope the rest of you folks who check this thread take this to heart. I asked a guitar player friend of mine about this song b/c I had some suspicions of my own. I was right, but he also gave me some more info that is pretty interesting.

1. The intro. It's a series of chord inversions moving from Dm to Cmaj, correct? The actual song is in Cmaj. You probably worked a while on the intro, and guess what? You are likely still hearing flattted thirds (the difference between major & minor) when you get to the body of the song, which is major, i.e., no flatted third. Strat 2 is right. Play that C major scale a few times and get it in your head.

2. The melody. Madjack's comment about you getting the melody right, but a 4th below... Here's the kicker. THE MELODY IS A HARMONY!!! The first chord of the song is a Dmaj, correct? Now your instincts would be to sing the root note over that D chord, which would, of course be a D. BUT the melody starts on an F#. When you go to the next chord, you should STILL be singing a major third over the root.

Now, here's the deal. You can 'change keys' without changing the key of this song by simply learning the root melody as you are currently doing. Who the hell is going to know the difference but you, me and Madjack, and we're not complaining. The advantage here is that the root melody fits you nicely, you don't have to relearn the intro in a different key, AND you don't risk changing the overall sound of the song by putting it in a different key.

IF you want to sing the Bon Jovi lead part, which starts on the F#, go for it. BUT you are really going to have to hear those notes in your head. If they are too high for you to reach comfortably, then you have a choice. Learn to hit them, or sing the roots instead. Quite frankly, either choice is a good one, and you will be a better singer once you get this one sussed out and you have it nailed.

Oh, and about those high notes. Hit them softly at first. Get them right BEFORE you get them loud. And don't forget that even though rock singers sound like they have lungs of steel, they don't. Most of them record singing at very low volumes and then the vocal is cranked up and buttered with fx to make it sound like they have bellows for lungs.

Oh yes... I would really like to hear what you can do with a less challenging song. A blues, say, or whatever. Something simple. Just use a really basic strum pattern and sing a basic song - preferably something you've been singing and playing so long that you don't have to think about either very much. Would you post something like that?

:)

TornadoShaunUK

09-05-2006, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
First. Madjack is right. It IS better than the first one. You are zeroing in on the melody much better. Still pitchy, but you are improving. Keep working on really hearing the melody in your head and you will begin nailing it. I can actually hear in places where you are getting it, and then I can hear where you disconnect again.

Second. You have chosen a song that isn't as simple to sing as it appears, and I hope the rest of you folks who check this thread take this to heart. I asked a guitar player friend of mine about this song b/c I had some suspicions of my own. I was right, but he also gave me some more info that is pretty interesting. I'm gonna list it out so my points are easier to find.

1. The intro. It's a series of chord inversions moving from Dm to Cmaj, correct? The actual song is in Cmaj. You probably worked a while on the intro, and guess what? You are likely still hearing flattted thirds (the difference between major & minor) when you get to the body of the song, which is major, i.e., no flatted third. Strat 2 is right. Play that C major scale a few times and get it in your head.

2. The melody. Madjack's comment about you getting the melody right, but a 4th below. Here's the kicker. THE MELODY IS A HARMONY!!!

What do you mean exactly when you say the melody is a harmony? My sole understanding of the word harmony at the moment is when two people sing the same tune together in the same key to create a harmony. I know they do this on the original, particularly in the chorus but that's the same for most of Bon Jovi's songs and indeed a lot of other bands out there.

I will work on it some more and post up another version sometime soon.. determined to sort this out and sing it in the right damn key :mad:

SoulHitchHiker

09-05-2006, 05:39 PM

Sorry, I posted half of my reply by accident. I do explain it in my edited post, and yeah, you basically have the idea right. In a simple form, a major chord: root, 3rd, 5th gives you three 'start notes' if you are going to sing a melody over it. In other words, you can begin a melody on the root, the 3rd, or the 5th, and all will be well.

Most of the time (and this is a generalization, so all you sophisticated types just take a breath!) a song will begin with the chord of the key it is in (or the I 'one'-chord). So if the song is in Cmaj, Cmaj will generally be the first chord in the song. AND the melody will begin on the root of that I-chord. So again, if the I chord is C, the start note of your melody is C.

Building off this idea, your basic harmony parts would begin on the 3rd and 5th of the I-chord, or E and G if you are in Cmaj.

So comparing Dead or Alive to this model, oh boy! It's in Cmaj, but begins on D - the II. And not just that, but uses the F# as the start note. The 3rd of the II, which doesn't exist in the Cmaj scale. This ain't your daddy's blues! Oh, and I just talked to my pal again, and he reminded me that the song goes back to a minor at the end of the chorus for 'dead or alive.'

So do NOT beat yourself up about getting this song down perfect the first time. There are lots of little land mines in this sucker that are tripping you up. So, now that we have collectively helped you find some of them, I KNOW you will get back into it, work on it some more and put up a new video that's even closer to fine. :)

PS Another song that has a similar structure is 'Thank You' by Led Zep. You might want to give that a listen b/c the lead vocal is a bit more naked and easier to hear.

Bajazz

09-06-2006, 02:01 AM

Still way off. Wrong melody and out of pitch. To those who think Tornado have mistaken the harmony for the melody or live version or something: Sorry, we're not talking about a simple misunderstanding of a few notes here: It's totally way off. The song "Wanted Dead or Alive" doesn't have any harmonies that are nearby Tornado's interpretation or an octave higher. In fact, the song has few harmonies and the most signifant is the "Wanted --- Wanted" which is not a harmony, but a repetition. This was a bit harsh, here comes the good news:

It's no problem! :D

All you got to do is:
- Put away your guitar. Your guitar playing is good enough for now. Spend every guitar-minute on vocals from now on until you can sing well. Don't fool yourself. Good vocals takes as least as much time practicing as any other instrument.
- Practice vocals, not just sing, you are now fumbling in blindness. Do this:

Play a random note on your guitar and try to sing that note
Reverse: sing a note and then try to match it with your guitar
Sing different notes into a guitar tuner and try to center the needle
Spend some time with the PS2 game Singstar, or go to carryatune.com and buy their stuff
Prepare to spend at least 1 hour a day, 4 if you can spare

I will suggest vocal lessons if you can.

Good luck, you'll get there!! :thu:

SoulHitchHiker

09-06-2006, 08:52 AM

I don't see any need for being harsh at all. It's not terribly productive. It's terrifying to perform something and put it out for critique. Enough people in this world are harsh, so let's not indulge in that here, OK? Shaun is trying really hard to get a handle on a difficult song, and we're here to help him. Period.

TornadoShaunUK

09-06-2006, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Still way off. Wrong melody and out of pitch. To those who think Tornado have mistaken the harmony for the melody or live version or something: Sorry, we're not talking about a simple misunderstanding of a few notes here: It's totally way off. The song "Wanted Dead or Alive" doesn't have any harmonies that are nearby Tornado's interpretation or an octave higher. In fact, the song has few harmonies and the most signifant is the "Wanted --- Wanted" which is not a harmony, but a repetition. This was a bit harsh, here comes the good news:

It's no problem! :D

All you got to do is:
- Put away your guitar. Your guitar playing is good enough for now. Spend every guitar-minute on vocals from now on until you can sing well. Don't fool yourself. Good vocals takes as least as much time practicing as any other instrument.
- Practice vocals, not just sing, you are now fumbling in blindness. Do this:

Play a random note on your guitar and try to sing that note
Reverse: sing a note and then try to match it with your guitar
Sing different notes into a guitar tuner and try to center the needle
Spend some time with the PS2 game Singstar, or go to carryatune.com and buy their stuff
Prepare to spend at least 1 hour a day, 4 if you can spare

I will suggest vocal lessons if you can.

Good luck, you'll get there!! :thu:

Well I'll take your points on board.. I am kind of up there to be shot at I guess.. I will disagree with your comment about the song having no harmonies. There are a fair few in the song even in the oriignal studio track. Mostly they come in on the 'Dead or Alive' lyric in the original version.

It's still a little puzzling as to whether it's c major or not.. that d major chord in the verses is obviously the culprit. Is that just like astray note (the F# obviously present in Dmaj) or is the verse actually in G Major key and there is a key change to CMaj for the rest of the song..? :freak:

I don't plan on having any singing lessons, I've had a hand fullin the past and they havent really done me any good obviously. I don't really plan being a professional singer or anything it's justa hobby that I'd like to improve at, much like my guitar playing I just do it for the music... :thu:

SoulHitchHiker

09-06-2006, 11:41 AM

Shaun, give me the chord progressions you are playing for the verse and the chorus. My guitar player friend and I were working things out from memory and from watching your video. So just give me what you are playing like this: D - C - G - D, etc. for verse and then do the same for the chorus if you don't mind. We can tell you pretty quick what key or keys the song is in. And just so you know that I'm talking to someone who knows what he's doing, my friend's site is: www.edsupple.com.

Cheers!

TornadoShaunUK

09-06-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
Shaun, give me the chord progressions you are playing for the verse and the chorus. My guitar player friend and I were working things out from memory and from watching your video. So just give me what you are playing like this: D - C - G - D, etc. for verse and then do the same for the chorus if you don't mind. We can tell you pretty quick what key or keys the song is in. And just so you know that I'm talking to someone who knows what he's doing, my friend's site is: www.edsupple.com.

Cheers!

Intro I think is some sort of Dminor pattern - verses are basically DMaj - CMaj - GMaj - FMaj

the dmaj parts also involve I think its the Dsus2 chord - basically its open high e string rather than 2nd fret which is used in the normal Dmaj chord - you will hear what I mean in the song.

infact those are pretty much the only chords in the song.. it's a fairly simple progression they use pretty much all the way through it it's just that the song seems to be in CMaj key yet it still uses an F# note that is present in the Dmaj chord.. I guess it's just one of those stray notes that sometimes appears - I can think of another one of their songs in 'Born To Be My Baby' where a similar thing happens.

Anyway next I post a video up there I wont post the whole song, just half of it or something so it's quicker.. I think I'm beginning to get it it's just I tend to drift back off key again at the moment. I'll post another up ina short while...

TornadoShaunUK

09-06-2006, 01:46 PM

Ok guys/girls

I had another go, any closer? It sounds a bit better to me.. I am thinking I tend to drift on and off key in places? Feedback appreciated again.. I really should geta better bit of recording gear soon - once again I apologize for the bit of feedback that crops up on the pc mic =/ :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHcZe5ZWWo0

eventide7

09-06-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK

I would rather try and learn to sing it in the correct key. I'm just not entirely sure about how to change what key I'm singing in =/ When I listen to these recordings myself I think it sounds okay.. perhaps I just have a bad ear for these things =/

Everyone on this thread is being so darned nice. Truth is, you hit it on the head with trying to learn to sing it in key. It is possible that bone conduction is interfering with your ability to hear what your voice sounds like from the outside. I suggest you set up your equipment so you're feeding both your guitar and your vocals through a pair of headphones. Make sure you have it loud enough so that when you play and sing you can ONLY hear it through the headphones. Then try recording it.

Another thing to try would be to lay down the guitar track, play it back through headphones (again, while your vocals are also being fed through the phones), and sing while you are able to concentrate solely on what your voice is doing.

If neither one of those things helps, I would either hire a professional to help you one-on-one or just focus on playing the guitar (which was quite nice, btw).

Bajazz

09-07-2006, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
I don't see any need for being harsh at all. It's not terribly productive. It's terrifying to perform something and put it out for critique. Enough people in this world are harsh, so let's not indulge in that here, OK? Shaun is trying really hard to get a handle on a difficult song, and we're here to help him. Period. Maybe I could come up as harsh. Sorry for that! I'll try to be nicer. :-) I disagree about me being counterproductive, if you read my post, you'll see tips/methods on how to improve. They do work!Well I'll take your points on board.. I am kind of up there to be shot at I guess.. I will disagree with your comment about the song having no harmonies. There are a fair few in the song even in the oriignal studio track. Mostly they come in on the 'Dead or Alive' lyric in the original version.Yes, to be fair, you posted a sample on a vocal thread and that's what we'll concentrate at. Your vocals. I didn't say the song haven't harmonies. I said it has few. Most of what Richie sing his the repetition of "wanted". First two verses and chorus is totally without harmonies, 2nd chorus has 2 "wanted" repetitions and harmonies on "dead or alive". 3 chorus has 1 "wanted" etc...
OK, we can count words and disagree if there are few or many harmonies. I've listened to the song and analyzed. To me, the harmonies seems sparingly and discrete until the tail of the song. I've been singing my whole life (I'm 37 now) and trust me: Your problem is not the harmonies, it's melody and pitch, put shortly: "Active ear training".You're right about the chords, D (sus2 sus4) Cadd9, G and F. The intro is different inversions of Dm/Dm7 with occosionally colors of sus9. The key can be thought of as D "bluesy", or D Dorian, which equals the notes in a C major scale. I use a C harmonica when I play solo on this song. Here is the lyrics + chords (http://lochinloon.tripod.com/SWWchords.html) Do a TAB-search for the intro.I don't plan on having any singing lessons, I've had a hand fullin the past and they havent really done me any good obviously. I don't really plan being a professional singer or anything it's justa hobby that I'd like to improve at, much like my guitar playing I just do it for the musicOK, you'll get there without lessons. BTW, did you train on what I suggested? If not, please do. Before you start to learn songs you need to hit the correct notes, which you don't do now. After all you spend some time on your guitar, if you didn't you couldn't play one chord today. Same with vocals. If you don't practice you still can't sing a year from now.I had another go, any closer? It sounds a bit better to me Sounds the excactly same to me. No matter how many times you record it, you won't suddenly magically sound in tune. For nailing it you need practice, practice, practice, practice...... So put away that mic, and get to work. Give us a sample of your progress after 100 hours vocal training. :thu:

strat2

09-07-2006, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
Ok guys/girls

I had another go, any closer? It sounds a bit better to me.. I am thinking I tend to drift on and off key in places? Feedback appreciated again.. I really should geta better bit of recording gear soon - once again I apologize for the bit of feedback that crops up on the pc mic =/ :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHcZe5ZWWo0

You evidently hit a couple of right notes here, just not sure which
ones they were .
Record the first few lines acapella , then play back and compare
note for note with the studio recording.
Not sure you're ready to work on suggestions we've offered up
so far , but as this is just a 'pass time' for you that should not
be a problem.
Bajazz came off a tad harsh a few posts back, this prob sounds
harsh too, but some of us have thousands
of hours at voice alone here .

These guys can help but not if you don't listen.

Try their suggestions, some of them will work for you.
If you are willing to put in ridiculous hours at vocal training
like we have, you will improve, people will notice.
But if this is truly a hobby/pass time for you ,
stay the course.
:eek:

strat2

09-10-2006, 11:20 AM

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/riverstrat/bump.jpg

Someone chime in and help out TornadoShaunUK here.

My last post may not have been inspirational...

:eek:

TornadoShaunUK

09-12-2006, 10:47 AM

Don't worry about it guys. I haven't really got the time to be putting in hours a day at vocal training. I will probably look into it in a few years time or something when I might have a bit more time available.. I don't think I'll really learn how to sing well without a vocal teacher.

TornadoShaunUK

09-12-2006, 11:41 AM

I just read in my book and it has like a 'troubleshooting' section. For 'Singing Flat' it says...

"Use hidden smile, aim for letting the voice pole vault up the pathway. Add support until in tune. Press, don't push air into the cords. Sing from above and behind, down to any high note. Stand or sit comfortably upright. Energize yourself! Open vowels in low/mid range"

that's what it lists for remedying the problem.. I never really paid much attention to sitting/standing upright before, it seems to allow your voice to carry better but when I try it that way I can't really notice any major difference in all honesty. =/ What does it mean when it says 'add support until in tune' - is that just referring to breath support...?? :confused:

SoulHitchHiker

09-12-2006, 12:00 PM

Oh I just love those mystical descriptions of how to sing, don't you? Yes, they are talking about breath support, and once you pretty much got the hang of things and are fine-tuning, that description can be helpful.

As for putting hours and hours in, it's better to do some really high quality, effective work in 20-30 minutes than it is to labor for hours over figuring out mystical descriptions in a book. :)

For your particular case, my opinion is that you are having trouble hearing the notes in your head and then reproducing them with your voice. If you take 20 minutes a day to work on this particular issue, you will very quickly improve. You can do it any time. Play just a portion of the melody on your guitar or a keyboard. Really hear each note in your head specifically. Then, hearing each note, sing the line back. Listen, record it on a tape player or something. No need to video unless that's all you have.

At this point, when you sing, you are gesturing in the general direction of the melody. What you want to be doing is hitting each note dead-center. It's simply a matter of focus.

Once you get that mastered, then you can work on tonal quality, and fine-tuning flat spots like the book suggests. You can do this with a little quality work every day. Go to it!

rowwe11

09-15-2006, 09:37 AM

Hey guys.I am a guitarist who never ever sang before for the simple reason that my voice sucks.I was finally convinced to sing a couple of songs by my bassist.So the guitar playing is good but tell me bout the singing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LnE8ji-h...related&search=
all along the watchtower

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ilO0yUMnzgM

Knockin on heavens door

SoulHitchHiker

09-15-2006, 12:50 PM

Hey, I checked out your YouTube videos you linked to, but I also checked out some of your other instrumental ones. I think you are making a fine start, and you have an advantage many of us don't. You are very familiar with traditional Jewish music as well as Western pop/rock, which means your ear is already well-tuned to intervals not normally found in popular music.

And you can play an instrument well. Another huge advantage - just being familar with musical structures, keys, scales, etc. My advice would be to read through the previous posts here on ear training and vocal warmups. Then decide how you want to approach things.

It appears from your playing that you are disciplined, so perhaps finding a good voice teacher to at least get you started might be an option. If you can't or don't want to take lessons, there are lots of instructional materials out there, but I would suggest that you fnid something that has at least a CD if not a DVD included so you can hear and see what the heck the instructor is talking about. Otherwise you get into these ridiculous mystical sounding descriptions that simply frustrate you.

I have listed the materials that I have used and like on my website if you want to check that out: www.soulhitchhiker.com. It's in the Gear section under Instruction. Others have mentioned materials here as well, and my list is far from complete, but it's a start.

Your tonal quality is fine, so I'd say work on confidence and pitch. You will find your tonal quality improving as well.

FOR THE FUTURE (and for other readers here): Once you begin really developing your voice, you will find that you want to enhance certain qualities and perhaps camouflage others, just like you do when playing guitar. So when you get to that point, begin trying out different microphones and see which you prefer. Don't just use an SM57 or 58 just because that's what the sound guy put up for you. Be as picky about your vocal mic as you are about your guitar set up.

Good luck, welcome, and keep us, um, posted, pardon the pun. :)

strat2

09-16-2006, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by rowwe11
Hey guys.I am a guitarist who never ever sang before for the simple reason that my voice sucks.I was finally convinced to sing a couple of songs by my bassist.So the guitar playing is good but tell me bout the singing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LnE8ji-h...related&search=
all along the watchtower
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ilO0yUMnzgM
Knockin on heavens door

Good job rowwe11,

Takes courage to put a video together. I listened to
Knockin' on heaven's door.
Here's some random thoughts/observations I have on it.

You look fairly relaxed which is good, it almost looks though
as you are leaning back and tilting your head up to the mic.
if so don't.
Technically (don't get too technical) your weight should be mostly
focused on the front of your feet (ball) not rocking back on your heels
your spine and neck alignment should be closer to vertical with the
feeling you are hanging sort of by the back of your head.
Don't over do it.

At 1.14 on the tape you go for the higher notes by way of focusing on
your throat and closing it, that will never work, you have to move the focus
away from your throat and learn to relax it , this is something to take Voice
lessons for.
The key also may possibly be to high for you right now, hard to say,
I think it's more and experience issue.
Try to focus the sound to the roof of your mouth , feeling often is having
sensation of the sound coming out just about eye level.
This will help get you away from closing the throat.

You have no breath management.
Mostly referred to as breath 'support' and often mis understood.
Learn a little about your diaphragm and proper breathing.
Big sound does not come from lots of air , it comes from being open
and allowing for resonation.
When you learn this by taking a couple voice lessons don't over do it unless
you want to try to learn opera, over doing it will just bring you back to
square one: tense all over.

The tone is ok for starting out , so I wouldn't abandon singing , I'd want
to work at it and see how I could improve.

Both songs are slugs, (watchtower is one of my old favorites
but that's beside the point).

Try another style altogether, something with a pulse, you may find you
approach it totally different.
It can take a lot of work to find a niche, examine that idea a bit, see if you
don't find a style that readily adapts to what you have going right now.
Could be what you're doing currently is your niche, but check it out.
That 'niche' may change next year but that's ok too.

The scales may be difficult for you, I learned by repetition, takes forever but
I'm stubborn and that's how I approached different styles,repetition...

Some of your notes are a bit flat which is fairly common, take one line at a time
and aggressively learn each note and match it to an artist's rendition, master that
line in you head over and over again with no backtracks. Learn the line with dead
on note accuracy. You need to get to the level of 'a capella accurate' with
everything you do and be perfect on pitch regardless of key.

If I can't do it without the music , it will never be perfect , you need to understand the
intervals that you are doing. I don't mean technically, you have to really know that
each nuance in a line is perfect dead on with or without your back track.
One line at a time.One line at a time, Is it perfect ? If yes go to the next line.
Is it perfect with and without the music?
Check the chords to see that what the book or tabulature says matches your
lyrical notes, some times the chords they give you are slightly wrong and
sometimes way wrong.

Also try to find a style you like most grunge,metal,country ,blues , and bury
yourself in it.
Switching scales amongst genres is very easy for some and extremely
difficult for others.
You'll find with experience you can learn a song vocally in a matter of minutes ,
(not all the words), but the intervals, where as the same tune would have taken
weeks.
Look into the camera, it will help tackle any stage fright you may
or may not have.

Just some ideas is all, good luck with it.

Sing sing sing sing sing...
Take a couple lessons.
:thu:

Side note:
What's your pedal configuration for the lead ? Amp?

SoulHitchHiker

09-16-2006, 07:45 AM

All good suggestions Strat2, except I disagree with one. I think we become better musicians by tackling various styles, and rowwe11 is already doing that instrumentally. My two cents. :)

strat2

09-16-2006, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
All good suggestions Strat2, except I disagree with one. I think we become better musicians by tackling various styles, and rowwe11 is already doing that instrumentally. My two cents. :)

Yea, I have nothing against musicianship either.

Vocally:
My current genre (Country) gave me fits for 100's and 100's
of hours trying to shake my Rock/Blues scales that
were stone paths, and would take over when they
weren't wanted.
They held me back, it's not a problem today but if I new
where I was headed (genre wise) sooner, I'd have skipped the
rock scales (vocally) and saddled my efforts to the
Country scales.
It's not till they came naturally flowing like a river that I could sing relaxed.

I'm sure there's lots of people who don't experience the
problem , unfortunately I'm not one of them.

rowwe11

09-16-2006, 06:28 PM

Hey guys thanx for coments.I noticed the all along the watchtowe link wasnt working so here it is
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LnE8ji-hYzU

Now that is a whole lot of info you guys gave me.So here is my deal I am a guitarist who plays at jewish weddings and concerts.I never go near a mic on gigs cuz i know im not capable of singing jewish songs as they are really hard to sing. My other band which is totally diffrent than the many wedding orchestra I play for wanted me to try to do some vocals on some song dont ask why.As soul said yes I can learn it just like I learned guitar however I dont have the time to spend on vocals like I do on guitar as guitar is my first instrment.I also not from singing professionly but from singing on holidays and such have a lot of diffrent songs and scales that i know from russian fol songs to klezmer to rock to blues to modern jewish freilach to modern jewish rock to middle eastern.So Soul was right on that acount to.I also play all those genres if you will on guitar.Anyways thanx again and hopefully using some of these tips my next vid (Rockin in the free world) will have some better vocals.thanx!

rowwe11

09-16-2006, 08:13 PM

Yea my setup forgot that.Umm its either my american strat or ibanez semi hollow through crybaby classic-strobostomp-seymour duncan pickup booster-boss od3-jekyll and hyde-boss dd3-Fender Super Reverb RI

SoulHitchHiker

09-17-2006, 04:34 PM

OK. Then set small goals. Get one CD or DVD of vocal instruction - your choice. Mark Baxter's Singer's Toolbox DVD might be a good place to start. He worked with Steven Tyler from Aerosmith, among others.

Work your way through the instructional materials, pick a couple songs that you want to do with your band, and focus on them. As Strat2 says, you should be able to sing them unaccompanied and hit all the notes. I don't see that being a problem for you.

Let us know how you're doing, and if you have any questions or problems, post them here. We're full of opinions!

All the best! :)

PS You covered Dylan and Hendrix - poster boys for really terrible singers who sound great doing their thing. That in itself should inspire you to realize it's not so much perfection, but FEEL that makes a great performance. However, sometimes they have so little tone center to their vocals that the actual melody is tough to distinguish. If you find that happening, look for another version of the song with a different singer. Lots of folks have covered both these guys. OR learn the melody from acconmpanying yourself on guitar rather than singing along with the original recording.

krazeexharhar

09-18-2006, 05:52 PM

Hey guys, thought I'd chime in for a bit of help. I'm a guitarist learfning to sing and I took some lessons for a few weeks...but one thing we got snagged on was my tone...my hearing is good and I have good pitch/rhythm, but its just making my voice pleasing to the ear. I recorded this clip so if you could check it out I'd appreciate it lots!

www.myspace.com/theriseabovedestiny

I think I figured out how to open my throat, everyone says its pretty good but one person commented that hte tone was very 'round...', said it was good if I was doing it for character but at the same time for ht ekind fo music we're doing it might not be as good because it is so 'out there.'

Any comments?

Also, would it be possible to increase my range like half an octave right now? (mayb esomeone can tell from listening to my voice). I have an awkward range which is sort of in the middle of a tenor and a baritone. What are some things I can do?

SoulHitchHiker

09-18-2006, 06:17 PM

I guess I'm not sure what is 'out there.' Your tone sounds pretty good for being untrained, but we're always working on it, so....

Right off the bat, I can give you 2 sources that might interest you. Breck Alan: The Art of Body Singing, and Seth Riggs: Singing for the Stars. You can probably find both of them used on Amazon for reasonable prices.

Alan's book adresses tone in some very interesting ways, and leads you through all kinds of ridiculous-sounding but kinda entertaining exercises (!!) that show you how you can generate different tones, where they come from and how they feel.

Riggs' book is all about technique and foundation. I already had a good range, and was at the point where if I kept going the way I was, I might have gained a half-step or so. Just by using the Riggs book on my own, and then with my voice instructor, I went from hitting a D or Eflat above high C to hitting anywhere from a G to an A above high C, depending on the day - and I'm NOT a soprano. Friggin' spooky, huh?

So, can you gain a half an octave? If you are new at vocal training and you find the techniques that work for you, yes, you can. But don't push yourself. And, may I ask why you want/need to gain that much range so fast?

Again, I will repeat what I've said before about vocal tone. When you are recording or performing with a mic, PAY ATTENTION to the mic. Try it against others. Mics make a HUGE difference in your tone, so once you figure out what you want to sound like, and you've developed your voice toward that, don't just sing into some crap mic and think it doesn't matter. You wouldn't play your guitar through some crap amp that looks and sounds like it's been a scratching post for the neighborhood cats, would you?

I have my favorite mic, and where I go, it goes. :)

Bajazz

09-19-2006, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by krazeexharhar
Also, would it be possible to increase my range like half an octave right now? (mayb esomeone can tell from listening to my voice). I have an awkward range which is sort of in the middle of a tenor and a baritone. What are some things I can do? I used to have that sort of range too and worked hard to expand. After some time with SLS (Brett Manning/Seth Riggs) I had gained a lot of new notes, but mainly b/c of blending into falsetto and relaxing cords when going into bass register.

Some weeks ago, I picked up a E-book, Jaime Venderas "Raise your voice". And Now I've started to gain notes in the "natural" register, the chest to head where blending is done by zipping cords. And honestly it's a totally new technique for me and opens up doors to other sounds and high non-falsetto-notes with power.

It's like Justin Hawkins from The Darkness. He does those high notes in falsetto, cause he can't reach them "normally". The same with AC/DC, but Brian grits it up more so it sounds rawer. Anyway, those guys have defined their style with their technique. Being a cover artist I'm not gonna get a way with singing Tony Harnell, Aerosmith, Whitesnake or DIO in falsetto. It will simply sound Mickey Mouse

Yeah, I know you can transcribe, but it doesn't sound right and besides those tunes often have open strings signature guitar licks. Using Jaimes book I've slowly been able to reach a high E, and within a month I think I will have increased a 1/2 octave. Just by using a slightly different method. But I guess someone untrained will gain more and faster.

rowwe11

09-21-2006, 09:55 PM

Heres the Rockin in the free world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCmoPjANuJs

Bajazz

09-22-2006, 01:56 AM

I notice many wannabes on youtube who spend thousands of hour on guitar and none on vocals. Here is a message to you all:

Choose one of these options:
A. Put away that guitar NOW and start PRACTICE singing. Spends at least as many hours on vocals, cause as harsh as it seems: YOU SUCK!
B. Don't ever sing, find a band and be the guitar hero. If you don't want to learn how to sing, don't! I can't play bagpipe, so I don't harass people with it either!

This is cold hard facts. I see so many clips of overdone guitar, thousands of effects, perfected solos, loud Marshall stacks, and vocal that suck. Mostly you don't hear the vocals cause they are drowned out, and to be honest: it's maybe for the best.

A good singer IS the band. If the rythm section can hold a beat and the vocals are loud enough, a good singer can make a good band. With sucky vocals you have sucky band, no matter what. It seems as many see the vocal as some kind of fill between the guitar riffs and solos. Wake up, it's the other way around!

Take this from a guitar player who grew up to be a singer. A good singer with average guitar skills can make wonderful music. A awesome guitar player with none vocal capabilities can at best make some noise if he shuts up.

strat2

09-22-2006, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by krazeexharhar
Hey guys, thought I'd chime in for a bit of help. I'm a guitarist learfning to sing and I took some lessons for a few weeks...but one thing we got snagged on was my tone...my hearing is good and I have good pitch/rhythm, but its just making my voice pleasing to the ear. I recorded this clip so if you could check it out I'd appreciate it lots!

Any comments?...

one thing we got snagged on was my tone... ?

Who is we ?
Who are they ?
What is the nature of the 'snagging' , how might that effect
your career?

=
=

SoulHitchHiker

09-22-2006, 07:19 AM

OK bajazz, that's your thinking on it, and good for you. However, THIS thread is for people who are finding their way. I certainly hope that when you were finding YOUR way, that you weren't treated so rudely, and if you were, then that's too bad, but don't pass it on to others here, please.
There are ways to critique and make suggestions without being harsh or insulting. I would NEVER tell someone who is trying to better themselves that they suck. We ALL suck at times, even when we've got a grip on what we're doing. God knows I've had days when I couldn't hit a pitch to save my life. It happens. So what?
Furthermore, at least the folks here ARE trying. They aren't standing in a major-label studio armed with Autotune and recording platinum selling singles. Now IMHO, THOSE are the people who really suck.
Frankly, I'm always thrilled when a guitar player, or other instrumental musician finally realizes how difficult singing is by trying it. Once they understand how much work is involved, they gain new respect for singers, and in my world that is a very good thing.
So as singers, we need to be gracious and realize that voice will likely always be a secondary instrument for many musicians. And it may be played badly at times. So what? It's only rock & roll.

rowwe11

09-22-2006, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I notice many wannabes on youtube who spend thousands of hour on guitar and none on vocals. Here is a message to you all:

Choose one of these options:
A. Put away that guitar NOW and start PRACTICE singing. Spends at least as many hours on vocals, cause as harsh as it seems: YOU SUCK!
B. Don't ever sing, find a band and be the guitar hero. If you don't want to learn how to sing, don't! I can't play bagpipe, so I don't harass people with it either!

This is cold hard facts. I see so many clips of overdone guitar, thousands of effects, perfected solos, loud Marshall stacks, and vocal that suck. Mostly you don't hear the vocals cause they are drowned out, and to be honest: it's maybe for the best.

A good singer IS the band. If the rythm section can hold a beat and the vocals are loud enough, a good singer can make a good band. With sucky vocals you have sucky band, no matter what. It seems as many see the vocal as some kind of fill between the guitar riffs and solos. Wake up, it's the other way around!

Take this from a guitar player who grew up to be a singer. A good singer with average guitar skills can make wonderful music. A awesome guitar player with none vocal capabilities can at best make some noise if he shuts up.

I guess im going to have to repeat myself.I AM NOT A SINGER!I AM A GUITARIST.My band has a singer.I will take it as a compliment that you like my guitar work.What I am doing on youtube I probably would never do live.Yes you are right as a guitarist its guitar I am going to spend time on.I would love to be able sing however it is just somthing I am messing around with right now.

strat2

09-22-2006, 10:47 AM

Question to 'Vocalist' users of PD250 ... ...

Don't need the bash from non owners , yea I've heard a lot of things too... :eek:
Need to hear from singing users only.

My last rig involved EONG2 15'S , I don't expect the semi-toy PD250
to be at that level, and I understand the reverb is useless, I will use
a seperate reverb.
My Guitar has it's own rig, not to be plugged in to the new PA.

What is your experience when using it for your voice only, in a low
volume applications.

I need to find a small rig for easy lugging around, for voice only.

:eek: :freak: :cry:

TornadoShaunUK

09-24-2006, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
I notice many wannabes on youtube who spend thousands of hour on guitar and none on vocals. Here is a message to you all:

Choose one of these options:
A. Put away that guitar NOW and start PRACTICE singing. Spends at least as many hours on vocals, cause as harsh as it seems: YOU SUCK!
B. Don't ever sing, find a band and be the guitar hero. If you don't want to learn how to sing, don't! I can't play bagpipe, so I don't harass people with it either!

This is cold hard facts. I see so many clips of overdone guitar, thousands of effects, perfected solos, loud Marshall stacks, and vocal that suck. Mostly you don't hear the vocals cause they are drowned out, and to be honest: it's maybe for the best.

A good singer IS the band. If the rythm section can hold a beat and the vocals are loud enough, a good singer can make a good band. With sucky vocals you have sucky band, no matter what. It seems as many see the vocal as some kind of fill between the guitar riffs and solos. Wake up, it's the other way around!

Take this from a guitar player who grew up to be a singer. A good singer with average guitar skills can make wonderful music. A awesome guitar player with none vocal capabilities can at best make some noise if he shuts up.

Steve Vai says otherwise :rolleyes:

I'll post up some more samples soon for people that may be interested..

I think I'm getting closer, the fact of the matter is, I don't have time to be spending hours upon hours on perfecting my vocal. I'm thinking about booking a single singing lesson soon specifically to work ona few songs I like to play acoustically. :thu:

strat2

09-24-2006, 05:07 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by krazeexharhar
Hey guys, thought I'd chime in for a bit of help. I'm a guitarist learfning to sing and I took some lessons for a few weeks...but one thing we got snagged on was my tone...my hearing is good and I have good pitch/rhythm, but its just making my voice pleasing to the ear. I recorded this clip so if you could check it out I'd appreciate it lots!

Any comments?...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

one thing we got snagged on was my tone... ?

Who is we ?
Who are they ?
What is the nature of the 'snagging' , how might that effect
your career?

=
=

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/riverstrat/bump.jpg
For krazeexharhar ,
My memory is short , so I'll need clarification of above , so I
can give you my comments on the clip, before I forget ,--------
what were we talking about ?

:eek: :freak: :cry: :bor:

TornadoShaunUK

09-27-2006, 02:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlDI0VQDwk

Ok yet another one :rolleyes: I think I'm still a little under key (?) but hopefully I sing this a bit better now atleast. Let me know what you think anyway..

Bajazz

09-28-2006, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
OK bajazz, that's your thinking on it, and good for you. However, THIS thread is for people who are finding their way. I certainly hope that when you were finding YOUR way, that you weren't treated so rudely, and if you were, then that's too bad, but don't pass it on to others here, please. I'm aware that I'm the hard one on this thread, so please ignore me if you think I'm too harsh. But I'm honest and that's something. This thread is for discussing vocal technique and how to improve vocally. My point of view on this is that you need to practice, practice, practice to sound good and I'm gonna repeat it till I die. There is some hopeful souls here looking for the magical way, and others trying to give it to them, but this way don't exist. While life is hard, singing good is much harder, deal with it!
There are ways to critique and make suggestions without being harsh or insulting. I would NEVER tell someone who is trying to better themselves that they suck. We ALL suck at times, even when we've got a grip on what we're doing. God knows I've had days when I couldn't hit a pitch to save my life. It happens. So what?
Yeah, we all suck at times, I know. So we don't hopefully post video clips on youtube waiting for our great breakthrough. We wait until it sounds good till we publish. I tell you, mine comments is nice compared to the youtube community.
Frankly, I'm always thrilled when a guitar player, or other instrumental musician finally realizes how difficult singing is by trying it. Once they understand how much work is involved, they gain new respect for singers, and in my world that is a very good thing.Oh yes! I'm one of those who learned that way, wish I started vocalizing much earlier.So as singers, we need to be gracious and realize that voice will likely always be a secondary instrument for many musicians. And it may be played badly at times. So what? It's only rock & roll. So what? So DON'T ASK HOW TO IMPROVE VOCALLY ON A VOCAL THREAD WITHOUT TAKING THE ANSWERS SERIOUS!!! If you are not serious on improving, don't go here, please! I will gladly put in a few hours for those who want my advice, but it's frustrating not to be taken seriously.

Bajazz

09-28-2006, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by rowwe11
I guess im going to have to repeat myself.I AM NOT A SINGER!I AM A GUITARIST.Then please go to the guitarist forums for advice on how to play guitar. You may use this vocal thread for dicussing vocal technique. ;)

Bajazz

09-28-2006, 02:59 AM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
Steve Vai says otherwise :rolleyes: Happily for Steve there is enough guitar players buying his CD's...;)

I think I'm getting closer, the fact of the matter is, I don't have time to be spending hours upon hours on perfecting my vocal. I'm thinking about booking a single singing lesson soon specifically to work ona few songs I like to play acoustically. :thu: I've listened to all your clips and I can't hear any difference. If you book a single lesson I won't hear any difference after that either. If you lay away your guitar for 4 weeks and spend all guitar time on practicing I will notice much difference in singing and none on guitar playing.

Tornado, here are some ideas for you:
- Every opportunity you have, have a mp3-player with your favorite songs on playing. Sing along as much as possible.
- If you drive a car, have a CD with songs and sing along

I have almost no time sitting down and practice either so I have mp3-players, Cd's and wireless headphones playing songs and vocal excercises from laptop. I sing all the time: when I'm doing housework, surfin on the net, painting the house, driving car, you name it. I even sing when I whatch TV!

Tornado, please answer this: Do you have a Playstation II?

SoulHitchHiker

09-28-2006, 06:52 AM

This is my last post on this thread. I will not post on a thread where someone like bajazz insists on ruining the open environment that the rest of us have established. This is what I hate about forums. There's always someone who just screws it up for everyone else, but until recently, that hadn't happened here. BTW, bajazz, I checked your website and watched YOUR videos. Not terribly impressive, I have to say, for all that practice, practice, practice you claim to do. So instead of self-righteously tearing everyone else down, you really should be looking more critically at your own 'work.'

As for the rest of you, good luck, and all the best. If you have questions that I might be able to help with, feel free to contact me through my website: www.soulhitchhiker.com. Bajazz, don't bother, I'll simply block your email.

Soul HitchHiker

Bajazz

09-28-2006, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
BTW, bajazz, I checked your website and watched YOUR videos. Not terribly impressive, I have to say, for all that practice, practice, practice you claim to do.Imagine all the practice I have to do to get good! :DOriginally posted by SoulHitchHiker
So instead of self-righteously tearing everyone else down, you really should be looking more critically at your own 'work.'I do. Every single day. For hours.

TornadoShaunUK

09-28-2006, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Happily for Steve there is enough guitar players buying his CD's...;)

I've listened to all your clips and I can't hear any difference. If you book a single lesson I won't hear any difference after that either. If you lay away your guitar for 4 weeks and spend all guitar time on practicing I will notice much difference in singing and none on guitar playing.

Tornado, here are some ideas for you:
- Every opportunity you have, have a mp3-player with your favorite songs on playing. Sing along as much as possible.
- If you drive a car, have a CD with songs and sing along

I have almost no time sitting down and practice either so I have mp3-players, Cd's and wireless headphones playing songs and vocal excercises from laptop. I sing all the time: when I'm doing housework, surfin on the net, painting the house, driving car, you name it. I even sing when I whatch TV!

Tornado, please answer this: Do you have a Playstation II?

I don't have a PS2 no. Also as I have said before I don't have the time to be spending hours on end doing vocal excercises. I'm at work 9.30-5.30 and I have other things I like/need to do when I get home from work most days.. it may come as a surprise but I don't often feel like singing after a hard days graft =/

I'm going to have to agree with SoulHitchHiker about your work. For all the knowledge and extensive work you have done I was expecting far better than the videos on your web page :rolleyes: :eek:

strat2

09-28-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Bajazz
Happily for Steve there is enough guitar players buying his CD's...;)

I've listened to all your clips and I can't hear any difference. If you book a single lesson I won't hear any difference after that either. If you lay away your guitar for 4 weeks and spend all guitar time on practicing I will notice much difference in singing and none on guitar playing.

Tornado, here are some ideas for you:
- Every opportunity you have, have a mp3-player with your favorite songs on playing. Sing along as much as possible.
- If you drive a car, have a CD with songs and sing along

I have almost no time sitting down and practice either so I have mp3-players, Cd's and wireless headphones playing songs and vocal excercises from laptop. I sing all the time: when I'm doing housework, surfin on the net, painting the house, driving car, you name it. I even sing when I whatch TV!

Tornado, please answer this: Do you have a Playstation II?

Bajazz ,

You've made some very good points, however you know you
are being very abrupt , bordering on rude.

Until we get our permanent Vocal Forum , we need to
accommodate all comers , no matter how low or high
their level of competence.

Right now we have no separate facility for beginners so
we have to make the best of being lumped together till
then.

If you must simply step back and let someone else field
questions that annoy you then by all means do so.

I also agree our comments are being somewhat ignored
, shame but no big deal on the scheme of things.

Time for all of us to pull back a little on our personal attacks
and/or insults, myself included I'm sure...

The seniors are here to help the newbies , that is our
objective, give back in the honor of those that
selflessly helped us over the years.
:eek: :freak:

strat2

09-28-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by SoulHitchHiker
This is my last post on this thread. I will not post on a thread where someone like bajazz insists on ruining the open environment that the rest of us have established. This is what I hate about forums. There's always someone who just screws it up for everyone else, but until recently, that hadn't happened here. BTW, bajazz, I checked your website and watched YOUR videos. Not terribly impressive, I have to say, for all that practice, practice, practice you claim to do. So instead of self-righteously tearing everyone else down, you really should be looking more critically at your own 'work.'

As for the rest of you, good luck, and all the best. If you have questions that I might be able to help with, feel free to contact me through my website: www.soulhitchhiker.com. Bajazz, don't bother, I'll simply block your email.

Soul HitchHiker

Soul HitchHiker,

Soul HitchHiker,

Please reconsider.
You have been the main contributor (where useful info might be
a consideration) here for the last couple months,
you bring a lot to the table, you won't have the same impact and
visibility / accessibility to new and experienced vocalists from your site,
as you are here on this one......

:eek: :)

strat2

09-28-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlDI0VQDwk

Ok yet another one :rolleyes: I think I'm still a little under key (?) but hopefully I sing this a bit better now atleast. Let me know what you think anyway..

What are the chords you are using, not so much the intro.

All the chords, call out if it's an inverted 7th , flatted 5th
minor major , whatever they are.
All of them with the lyrics, like you'd get on chordie or some of the other sites.

I'll tinker with it and confirm or eliminate the chord element.

You have a decent tone, but you're really hunting for most of
the notes.
I you had a shity voice I would'nt offer to critique, but it's
pretty good for where you're at.

Bajazz

09-29-2006, 02:50 AM

OK, I'll try to ease down a bit... :)
Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
I don't have a PS2 no. The reason I asked is that the Playstation games "Singstar" is very good for learning to sing on pitch. It's my tip to you for making it a bit more fun. I've used it since it came out and it's THE SHIT for practicing singing in tune and on pitch.
Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
Also as I have said before I don't have the time to be spending hours on end doing vocal excercises. I'm at work 9.30-5.30 and I have other things I like/need to do when I get home from work most days.. it may come as a surprise but I don't often feel like singing after a hard days graft =/I see. I'm OK by that, but you see: That's what frustrate and confuse me on this particular thread: You come and ask for tips on how to sing better. Now you say you don't have the time and energy to do the things we advice you to do? I hope you can understand why some of us here gets confused? :confused: Originally posted by TornadoShaunUK
I'm going to have to agree with SoulHitchHiker about your work. For all the knowledge and extensive work you have done I was expecting far better than the videos on your web page :rolleyes: :eek: Well, those are the old BEFORE videos, but I think they're OK. At least they have landed a lot of gigs. I sing on pitch on those videos and they show I can entertain a crowd. I'm working on the AFTER videos now, but you see it's very expensive to get hold of quality produced video material, so I'm gonna work out a deal with a local media college. You'll probably see them on my site next year.